Systemic Corruption

[patrickt]

We keep looking for corruption from bad people but it's the system, and perhaps the culture, that maintains and fosters corruption."It's widely believed that the 2007 rewrite of congressional travel rules spurred by the scandal that sent lobbyist Jack Abramoff to prison banned such international dalliances. But that's far, far from true. A National Journal investigation has found that despite efforts to clip the wings of congressional travel planned and paid for by special interests, lawmakers are again taking flight. Indeed, the reality is that lobbyists who can't legally buy a lawmaker a sandwich can still escort members on trips all around the world. LOBBYISTS WHO CAN'T LEGALLY BUY A LAWMAKER A SANDWICH CAN STILL ESCORT MEMBERS ON TRIPS ALL AROUND THE WORLD.More than six years ago, reformers pledged that tightened travel rules would end an era of globe-trotting tied to special interests and, as incoming Speaker Nancy Pelosi put it, "break the link between lobbyists and legislators." http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014/01/lobbyists-are-using-loopholes-fly-lawmakers-around-world/356893/When I was working in a city police department I had to fly to another state. The personnel director asked if I'd fly first class and I laughed and said I could pay the difference between coach and first class. He told me how to do it. You scheduled an early morning flight. Then you had a family emergency and rebooked your flight for the busiest time of day. "Oh, booked up, then I have to move to first class." He laughed and said the city allowed that in "emergencies".I don't believe the corruption is with a few bad apples. It isn't with one particular party. Or even the sexists who insisted it would take a woman to clean the house, Rep. Pelosi, are off the beam. They're all corrupt and as new members come in, job one for the government is to corrupt them, too, so they won't rock the gravy boat and make a mess.It isn't just foreign businesses paying for trips. Corporations pay for trips and 501(c)(3) organizations--you know, the club from which the IRS wants to bar conservative--pay for trips. Those organizations laughingly called "nonprofits" book trips for legislators that ran as high as $25,000.Mexico has a law that says the President can't leave Mexico without approval of their Congress. Maybe we need a law that says politicians simply can't leave the country.

[Max Rockatansky]

The problem isn't the system, but the fact it has people. They are the X factor. The part at the base of the corruption. In your example it wasn't the rules but the people who abuse the rules who are corrupt even if just a little bit.

Possible actions are:
Get rid of the people
Accept that people can be corrupt and both accept it and continue to root it out.

[Peter1469]

Right, the system is made by people. People can find the loop holes. We need to shun corruption and corrupt people. I know about the travel loop holes but I wouldn't think of doing it.

[patrickt]

The problem isn't the system, but the fact it has people. They are the X factor. The part at the base of the corruption. In your example it wasn't the rules but the people who abuse the rules who are corrupt even if just a little bit.

Possible actions are:
Get rid of the people
Accept that people can be corrupt and both accept it and continue to root it out.

I disagree most strenuously. The gentlemen, and Benjamin Franklin, who helped craft the Constitution knew that all of us are fallible and flawed and wanted to design a system to survive regardless. They did a good job until the corrupt corrupted the Constitution.

You can elect the best in the world and the system will pervert most of them. It is amazing what even good people can rationalize.

Edit:
When I was working at a police department a young officer disagreed with our policies on corruption. He got a job at a larger department, Denver, Colorado, and left beaming. A year later he was back applying for a job. I told him I didn't want to bring him back if he was going to be unhappy with our policies on things like free meals.

He shook his head and said, "No, you were right. It isn't restaurants who just want to give free meals. One restaurant wouldn't so I was assigned by my sergeant to write tickets on people parking in the parking lot across the street and jaywalking to the restaurant. When the restaurant started offering free meals, I quit writing jaywalking tickets."

In an interview an officer from another department applying for a job justified committing perjury, like Bill Clinton, by saying he only lied in court when it was absolutely necessary. He was proud of his ethical stand.

In 1958, I think, some Denver police officers were convicted of burglaries. Here's an article:
http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_14405448

One of the convicted burglars was quite young and once he was in prison he wrote in detail about how he hired on to be a good cop and was very slowly moved along to being a burglar. He never had to make a major decision.

I had been a cop for about a week when an assistant chief took me to the property vault, pointed to a set of wheels and tires and said, "Those are for a Volkswagen. They're yours." I turned them down. My sergeant took me to breakfast and when we finished he said, "We don't have to pay," and I put money on the table.

In corrupt systems it isn't easy to stay straight. I was investigating a police brutality charge and one officer who clearly saw what happened said, "I can't tell you or none of the guys would have coffee with me." Keep in mind, rule #1 for the union is you don't rat out fellow officers.

No, it isn't just bad people. It's the system and the organizational culture.

One last comment. I never dealt with a corrupt department when the corruption started at the bottom and moved up.

[Max Rockatansky]

I disagree most strenuously. The gentlemen, and Benjamin Franklin, who helped craft the Constitution knew that all of us are fallible and flawed and wanted to design a system to survive regardless. They did a good job until the corrupt corrupted the Constitution.

You can elect the best in the world and the system will pervert most of them. It is amazing what even good people can rationalize.
The Founders designed the system the best way they knew how despite human failings. The "system" is simply a framework. It takes honest people to fill in those frames. As this saying goes "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." If the police department is corrupt, it's because there are too few men to stand up and fix it.

Thanks for the stories. As for corruption, while I'm sure you never saw it start from the bottom, the fact remains corruption is a human failing and can start anywhere. The difference is that the impact of a corrupt newbie and a corrupt department head are exponentially different.

[donttread]

Bulldoze "K" street




We keep looking for corruption from bad people but it's the system, and perhaps the culture, that maintains and fosters corruption."It's widely believed that the 2007 rewrite of congressional travel rules spurred by the scandal that sent lobbyist Jack Abramoff to prison banned such international dalliances. But that's far, far from true. A National Journal investigation has found that despite efforts to clip the wings of congressional travel planned and paid for by special interests, lawmakers are again taking flight. Indeed, the reality is that lobbyists who can't legally buy a lawmaker a sandwich can still escort members on trips all around the world. LOBBYISTS WHO CAN'T LEGALLY BUY A LAWMAKER A SANDWICH CAN STILL ESCORT MEMBERS ON TRIPS ALL AROUND THE WORLD.More than six years ago, reformers pledged that tightened travel rules would end an era of globe-trotting tied to special interests and, as incoming Speaker Nancy Pelosi put it, "break the link between lobbyists and legislators." http://www.thewire.com/politics/2014/01/lobbyists-are-using-loopholes-fly-lawmakers-around-world/356893/When I was working in a city police department I had to fly to another state. The personnel director asked if I'd fly first class and I laughed and said I could pay the difference between coach and first class. He told me how to do it. You scheduled an early morning flight. Then you had a family emergency and rebooked your flight for the busiest time of day. "Oh, booked up, then I have to move to first class." He laughed and said the city allowed that in "emergencies".I don't believe the corruption is with a few bad apples. It isn't with one particular party. Or even the sexists who insisted it would take a woman to clean the house, Rep. Pelosi, are off the beam. They're all corrupt and as new members come in, job one for the government is to corrupt them, too, so they won't rock the gravy boat and make a mess.It isn't just foreign businesses paying for trips. Corporations pay for trips and 501(c)(3) organizations--you know, the club from which the IRS wants to bar conservative--pay for trips. Those organizations laughingly called "nonprofits" book trips for legislators that ran as high as $25,000.Mexico has a law that says the President can't leave Mexico without approval of their Congress. Maybe we need a law that says politicians simply can't leave the country.

[Mainecoons]

Bulldoze "K" street

It would just move over to "L" street. I lived there for nearly 20 years, the corruption is total in D.C. You really have to bulldoze the entire thing and fire most of the D.C. bureaucracy and all of the elected politicians.

[Peter1469]

Just make lobbyist activity 100% transparent.

[Max Rockatansky]

Just make lobbyist activity 100% transparent.

Agreed. Saying "you can't" is a violation of the First Amendment. Saying "You can, but any relations with government must be clearly presented" works for me.

[Peter1469]

Note: I fixed the spacing in the thread title- it was annoying. patrickt if you want it changed back let me know.

[Max Rockatansky]

Note: I fixed the spacing in the thread title- it was annoying. @patrickt (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=348) if you want it changed back let me know.

Some people think you're OCD but I told them they were full of shit! :D

[patrickt]

Note: I fixed the spacing in the thread title- it was annoying. @patrickt (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=348) if you want it changed back let me know.

I sent a message to the powers that be about trouble I'm having formatting. I have no idea what's going on.