US Senate Advocating Sanctions (Economic Murder) Against the People of Iran

[Ethereal]

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s1881/text

In an attempt to derail the recent diplomatic overtures of the Obama administration in regards to Iran, the Israeli lobby whores in the Senate have taken it upon themselves to reimpose sanctions, which are a form of economic murder, on the people of Iran. As was the case with the sanctions on Iraq, this form of economic deprivation and denial is as insane as it is diabolical, with its effects felt almost entirely by the weakest and most vulnerable members of that society, namely, children, infirm, and elderly, while doing almost nothing to materially impact the position of the ruling class.

The following is a list of the criminals who are trying to perpetrate this murder against the weakest members of Iranian society:

Mr. Menendez (for himself, Mr. Kirk, Mr. Schumer, Mr. Graham, Mr. Cardin, Mr. McCain,Mr. Casey, Mr. Rubio, Mr. Coons, Mr. Cornyn, Mr. Blumenthal, Ms. Ayotte, Mr. Begich,Mr. Corker, Mr. Pryor, Ms. Collins, Ms. Landrieu, Mr. Moran, Mrs. Gillibrand, Mr. Roberts, Mr. Warner, Mr. Johanns, Mrs. Hagan, Mr. Cruz, Mr. Donnelly, Mr. Blunt, Mr. Booker, Ms. Murkowski, Mr. Manchin, Mr. Coats, Mr. Vitter, Mr. Risch, Mr. Isakson, and Mr. Boozman

Villains, every last one.

[Peter1469]

My ideas on this are much to complicated for this early in the morning.

[Ethereal]

Apparently, Senators Paul and Flake have held out so far, though they appear to be caving to pressure from the neo-con hate-mongers.

Senator Paul has already stained his legacy once by voting for such despicable sanctions, hopefully, he will not make that same mistake again. I think all us Paul supporters should let him know just how we feel about the murder of innocents via economic deprivation and isolation.

http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2014/01/14/senate_liberals_hit_pause_on_iran_sanctions_sprint .html

[pjohns]

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s1881/text

In an attempt to derail the recent diplomatic overtures of the Obama administration in regards to Iran, the Israeli lobby whores in the Senate have taken it upon themselves to reimpose sanctions, which are a form of economic murder, on the people of Iran. As was the case with the sanctions on Iraq, this form of economic deprivation and denial is as insane as it is diabolical, with its effects felt almost entirely by the weakest and most vulnerable members of that society, namely, children, infirm, and elderly, while doing almost nothing to materially impact the position of the ruling class.

There are just two alternatives to sanctions: (1) war; and (2) capitulation (perhaps disguised as "a negotiated settlement").

Which of these two would you prefer, if you entirely eschew sanctions?

[Ethereal]

Iraq Sanctions Kill Children, U.N. Reports (http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/01/world/iraq-sanctions-kill-children-un-reports.html)

As many as 576,000 Iraqi children may have died since the end of the Persian Gulf war because of economic sanctions imposed by the Security Council, according to two scientists who surveyed the country for the Food and Agriculture Organization.

What crime did the children of Iraq and Iran commit to deserve such cruel deaths at the hands of the imperialist pigs in Washington DC?

[Ethereal]

There are just two alternatives to sanctions: (1) war; and (2) capitulation (perhaps disguised as "a negotiated settlement").

There is also diplomacy and free trade.


Which of these two would you prefer, if you entirely eschew sanctions?

I reject your false choice and condemn your attempts to justify the murder of the weakest and most vulnerable members of Iranian society.

[Ethereal]

The people of Iran are not my enemy. They are not a threat to me, my family, or my broader community because they refuse to bow to western imperialists. They are a sovereign nation, just like the US, and retain the right to political self-determination. Israel is a self-interested country that is continually trying to drag the US into its regional conflicts. Israel is not a US vital interest and we should withdraw our military commitment to them. Plus, these ingrates still haven't admitted their crimes against the USS Liberty, where the Israeli military knowingly and willingly targeted a US spy ship, murdering dozens of US service members in the process:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjOH1XMAwZA

[Ethereal]

Great article on the undue influence the Israeli lobby exerts over the US government.


Obama Starts To Turn Tide Against Lobby's Sanctions Bill (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/mj-rosenberg/obama-iran-lobbys-sanctions-bill_b_4620130.html)

It's the weekend and the tide may have turned President Obama's way in his battle to prevent Congress from enacting new Iran sanctions, sanctions that would almost surely kill the agreement the P5+1 reached with Iran to restrict its nuclear program.

According to National Journal (http://www.nationaljournal.com//daily/iran-hawks-flounder-against-reid-obama-coalition-20140116), Majority Leader Harry Reid is strongly resisting demands from AIPAC Senators to bring its sanctions bill to the floor for a vote. It reports that Sen. John McCain's plan will be to get local Jewish communities to put the pressure on their senators and, if Reid resists, to keep bringing the bill up and forcing Reid to block it.

That way the Democrats will be exposed as anti-Israel and the Republicans will benefit in November. AIPAC and Sen. Chuck Schumer are, no doubt, giving Reid the same message: if we don't do this, AIPAC donors will boycott us and will lose our majority. But Reid is good at standing up to special interest pressure. So the old boxer may very well stand tough. We'll see. But so far, so good. Especially with some in the media finally addressing this bum rush to war.
Exposure is never good news for the lobby, which is why it operates behind closed doors. And successfully. It has managed to create a situation where any American can say or write anything about the United States and its leaders but not about Israel. You won't lose your job if you write that President Obama was born in Kenya or is a secret terrorist, but suggest that Netanyahu is a stinker and you are in serious trouble. This is perverse.

Back in September 1982, I began a four year-stint as a senior staffer at AIPAC. My politics have obviously evolved since then. I left that job still in synch with AIPAC's worldview and on good terms with the place. In fact, I continued fundraising for the organization after I left. I didn't come around to seeing AIPAC as an enemy of peace until years later.

But back to 1982. In my very first day on the job, AIPAC's then research director, Steve Rosen (later indicted (http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/218521/troubling-prosecution/jonathan-h-adler) under the Espionage Act but never tried) left a memo on my desk. It said this: "A lobby is a night flower. It thrives in the dark and dies in the sun." Then, in a postscript, "Remember, the walls have ears." The Rosen memo became famous, appearing both in the Washington Post (https://secure.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost/doc/307389288.html?FMT=FT&FMTS=ABS:FT&date=Jun+13%2C+1991&author=Grove%2C+Lloyd&desc=On+the+March+for+Israel%3B+The+Lobbyists+From +AIPAC%2C+Girding+for+Battle+in+the+New+World+Orde r+Series%3A+AMERICAN+ISRAEL+PUBLIC+AFFAIRS+COMMITT EE+Series+Number%3A+1%2F2)and the New Yorker. (http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2005/07/04/050704fa_fact) (Yes, I leaked it years after leaving the organization).

The reason it is so widely published is that Rosen's warning sums up AIPAC's operating philosophy. If it is to successfully manipulate U.S. foreign policy on behalf of the Israeli government, it must do so surreptitiously. Otherwise, the sheer inappropriateness of its behavior could lead to its demise. Of course, that is unlikely. Members of Congress collecting money from AIPAC donors are not likely to call for it to register as a foreign agent (like the lobbies of every other foreign government) because foreign agents are banned by law from donating to candidates. Hence, no more AIPAC money. Say what you will about the Saudi or Japan lobby, but they are registered with the Justice Department and must report on every dollar they spend to influence Congress. AIPAC can do whatever it wants and it does.

The night flower thrives in the shade and the media has permitted it to stay there.

[Ivan88]

Actually, Ethereal, the Israelis don't need to apologize for sinking the USS Liberty, because, they did it for the USA. President Johnson, MacNamara and the US military establishment wanted that ship sunk.

You can't blame the Israelis when the US President & the Defense Department were 100% in favor of sinking the USS Liberty.
5420

[zelmo1234]

Iraq Sanctions Kill Children, U.N. Reports (http://www.nytimes.com/1995/12/01/world/iraq-sanctions-kill-children-un-reports.html)

As many as 576,000 Iraqi children may have died since the end of the Persian Gulf war because of economic sanctions imposed by the Security Council, according to two scientists who surveyed the country for the Food and Agriculture Organization.

What crime did the children of Iraq and Iran commit to deserve such cruel deaths at the hands of the imperialist pigs in Washington DC?

The kill Children not because the US Sanctions? But because the Government of the country still keeps everything for itself and it's cronies.

The Sanctions were working! They were causing the people to get restless toward there radical leaders. But we have a President that practices the policy of appeasement

You of all people should know what this leads to? If you let monsters become strong, many more will die to bring them to there demise!

You can't appease evil NEVER!

And the Iranian government is hell bent on Nuc's which they will use! And the world will be at war! Not the stupid shit that we play at in the middle east but War in the very since of a true hell on earth!

[patrickt]

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s1881/text

In an attempt to derail the recent diplomatic overtures of the Obama administration in regards to Iran, the Israeli lobby whores in the Senate have taken it upon themselves to reimpose sanctions, which are a form of economic murder, on the people of Iran. As was the case with the sanctions on Iraq, this form of economic deprivation and denial is as insane as it is diabolical, with its effects felt almost entirely by the weakest and most vulnerable members of that society, namely, children, infirm, and elderly, while doing almost nothing to materially impact the position of the ruling class.

The following is a list of the criminals who are trying to perpetrate this murder against the weakest members of Iranian society:

Mr. Menendez (for himself, Mr. Kirk, Mr. Schumer, Mr. Graham, Mr. Cardin, Mr. McCain,Mr. Casey, Mr. Rubio, Mr. Coons, Mr. Cornyn, Mr. Blumenthal, Ms. Ayotte, Mr. Begich,Mr. Corker, Mr. Pryor, Ms. Collins, Ms. Landrieu, Mr. Moran, Mrs. Gillibrand, Mr. Roberts, Mr. Warner, Mr. Johanns, Mrs. Hagan, Mr. Cruz, Mr. Donnelly, Mr. Blunt, Mr. Booker, Ms. Murkowski, Mr. Manchin, Mr. Coats, Mr. Vitter, Mr. Risch, Mr. Isakson, and Mr. Boozman

Villains, every last one.

When liberals go this far over the top with emotional demagoguery I have to assume there is no logical argument.

I do admire those who when facing someone who has sworn to destroy their home, kill them and every one in their family will calmly have a fool negotiate. Right. President Obama's negotiations with Russia that included, "After the election I can be more flexible" have gone really well, I'm sure, for President Obama. For the country, not particularly. What you really need to do with an implacable enemy is help him get nuclear capability.

[Captain Obvious]

You know, this whole "economic murder" thing is horseshit, but after reading the OP it's not hard to spot the shit-the-bed approach.

So the US is "murdering" Iranian citizens, the Iranian "supreme leader" is completely absolved from any responsibility? I guess the US is responsible for all of the suffering North Koreans too.

Yeah... right - see ya in church on that one.

[Alyosha]

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s1881/text

In an attempt to derail the recent diplomatic overtures of the Obama administration in regards to Iran, the Israeli lobby whores in the Senate have taken it upon themselves to reimpose sanctions, which are a form of economic murder, on the people of Iran. As was the case with the sanctions on Iraq, this form of economic deprivation and denial is as insane as it is diabolical, with its effects felt almost entirely by the weakest and most vulnerable members of that society, namely, children, infirm, and elderly, while doing almost nothing to materially impact the position of the ruling class.

The following is a list of the criminals who are trying to perpetrate this murder against the weakest members of Iranian society:

Mr. Menendez (for himself, Mr. Kirk, Mr. Schumer, Mr. Graham, Mr. Cardin, Mr. McCain,Mr. Casey, Mr. Rubio, Mr. Coons, Mr. Cornyn, Mr. Blumenthal, Ms. Ayotte, Mr. Begich,Mr. Corker, Mr. Pryor, Ms. Collins, Ms. Landrieu, Mr. Moran, Mrs. Gillibrand, Mr. Roberts, Mr. Warner, Mr. Johanns, Mrs. Hagan, Mr. Cruz, Mr. Donnelly, Mr. Blunt, Mr. Booker, Ms. Murkowski, Mr. Manchin, Mr. Coats, Mr. Vitter, Mr. Risch, Mr. Isakson, and Mr. Boozman

Villains, every last one.

I am unsurprised to see Ted Cruz throwing his hat in with them on this indecency. I love how "love the poor" progressives have no problems with voting to hurt the poor in other countries.

This proves only that they "love" the voting poor, not the poor.

[nathanbforrest45]

AW Poor Iranians.

Two words

Tough Shit

[Alyosha]

You know, this whole "economic murder" thing is horseshit, but after reading the OP it's not hard to spot the shit-the-bed approach.

So the US is "murdering" Iranian citizens, the Iranian "supreme leader" is completely absolved from any responsibility? I guess the US is responsible for all of the suffering North Koreans too.

Yeah... right - see ya in church on that one.


It's not horseshit. When you know that your actions will result in famine then you're just as culpable as blowing someone's head off with a bullet. Slow death versus fast death--which do you prefer?

I hate how white collar crimes or crimes of politics are measured with a different stick than crimes of the poor, quite possibly because it is the rich of society who propagate these philosophical malequations.

The CEO of that company in WV is as responsible for harm as teens doing a knock-out game, but which would go to jail?

[Alyosha]

AW Poor Iranians.

Two words

Tough Shit

I'm sure that if people said the same of 911 you'd be angered.

Have a heart.

[Alyosha]

When liberals go this far over the top with emotional demagoguery I have to assume there is no logical argument.

Is it time to tell us about that one Iranian guy that you know who hates Iran? I'll wait for the story with bated breath.

[nathanbforrest45]

I'm sure that if people said the same of 911 you'd be angered.

Have a heart.


I do, but not for the Iranians

And they did say that about 9/11. WTF, there were even Americans who said that about 9/11

[Captain Obvious]

It's not horseshit. When you know that your actions will result in famine then you're just as culpable as blowing someone's head off with a bullet. Slow death versus fast death--which do you prefer?

I hate how white collar crimes or crimes of politics are measured with a different stick than crimes of the poor, quite possibly because it is the rich of society who propagate these philosophical malequations.

The CEO of that company in WV is as responsible for harm as teens doing a knock-out game, but which would go to jail?

Wrong.

The actions (or inactions) of Iranian leaders that result in famine are to be blamed.

The fact that rogue countries like this hold their citizens hostage to the world and then blaming ourselves for the outcome is bullshit.

Put the blame where it belongs.

[Alyosha]

I do, but not for the Iranians

And they did say that about 9/11. WTF, there were even Americans who said that about 9/11


Oh. Sorry. Forgot. Two wrongs make a right. Fuck the little guy who doesn't make policy, then.

[patrickt]

I understand the liberal pleas to have a heart. Now, liberals, have a brain. The U.S. has not decided to consider sanctions just for the heck of it. They didn't even decide to consider sanctions because they hate the Persians. No, it's in reaction to Iran's government being set on getting a nuclear capability so they can eliminate Israel and kill all the Jews. That's their stated goal.

And, I understand liberals agree with them. So, if there are sanctions, the guilty parties would be the Iranian government and their liberal supporters in the U.S. Now, put your heart on hold for a moment and think.

[Alyosha]

Wrong.

The actions (or inactions) of Iranian leaders that result in famine are to be blamed.

It is our sanctions because we choose to tell them what to do, choose even though our president is attempting diplomacy.




The fact that rogue countries like this hold their citizens hostage to the world and then blaming ourselves for the outcome is bullshit.

Put the blame where it belongs.

I was held hostage during the Iraq war. I didn't vote for Bush or Obama. Should I be blamed because I live here?

[nathanbforrest45]

It is our sanctions because we choose to tell them what to do, choose even though our president is attempting diplomacy.



I was held hostage during the Iraq war. I didn't vote for Bush or Obama. Should I be blamed because I live here?

By whom were you allegedly held hostage?

[The Xl]

You know, this whole "economic murder" thing is horseshit, but after reading the OP it's not hard to spot the shit-the-bed approach.

So the US is "murdering" Iranian citizens, the Iranian "supreme leader" is completely absolved from any responsibility? I guess the US is responsible for all of the suffering North Koreans too.

Yeah... right - see ya in church on that one.

You're a pretty bright guy, but you're totally off base here. I echo Alyoshas sentiments here, as they are dead on. When your policy results directly in the death of civilians, then yes, you're liable for murder.

[Captain Obvious]

You're a pretty bright guy, but you're totally off base here. I echo Alyoshas sentiments here, as they are dead on. When your policy results directly in the death of civilians, then yes, you're liable for murder.

Wrong again.

When a countries policies are to hold their own citizens hostage and deprive them of basic human needs, what a third-party does or doesn't does not have a direct impact on those people. Indirect, yeah - maybe, but to say we are responsible for some other countries well being when those rogue countries purposely put their own citizens in harms way?

Double dip fucking bullshit.

Know what? YOU are responsible because YOU choose not to directly support those people, how's that grab ya?

[The Xl]

Wrong again.

When a countries policies are to hold their own citizens hostage and deprive them of basic human needs, what a third-party does or doesn't does not have a direct impact on those people. Indirect, yeah - maybe, but to say we are responsible for some other countries well being when those rogue countries purposely put their own citizens in harms way?

Double dip fucking bullshit.

Know what? YOU are responsible because YOU choose not to directly support those people, how's that grab ya?

Our sanctions directly affect them. This isn't rocket science here. And we don't have any business putting them on.

Let's mind our business and let the chips fall where they will. Until then, we're absolutely liable for murder.

[nic34]

This all fits in with the typical revisonist history where FDR was a fascist, oh.... and a terrorist because he didn't end the depression fast enough and reducing unemployment 10% wasn't good enough..... schtick.....

[Alyosha]

By whom were you allegedly held hostage?

Democrats and Republicans.

[Cigar]

Bottom-Line ... if Obama is for it ... The GOP is against it.

This was clearly pointed out January 20th , 2009 at a dinner table that the GOP leadership held.

[zelmo1234]

While it is perfectly human to feel bad for the people of Iran, it is there leaders insistence on perusing Nuc's that is the problem.

The policy of appeasement that our President is perusing is DANGEROUS! Because it will lead to a regional conflict that will include Russian and US troops in direct conflict with each other!

The Iranian people have a choice of who there leaders are insistent on the destruction of Israel!

[sachem]

I'm tired of the Iranians.

[Ethereal]

The kill Children not because the US Sanctions? But because the Government of the country still keeps everything for itself and it's cronies.

I'm not defending the Iranian regime. They, too, are partly responsible for the economic problems in their country, but there is no way you can argue that they're responsible for an oil embargo that basically destroys their economy and their monetary unit. That was done by sanctions, and sanctions cause death and disease on a massive scale. It's is a form of "civilized" genocide against the weakest and most vulnerable members of society. It is a crime against humanity.


A red line and a reeling rial (http://www.economist.com/node/21564229)

(The Economist) - SIX YEARS ago, when America and Europe were putting in place the first raft of measures to press Iran to come clean over its nuclear ambitions, the talk was of “smart” sanctions. The West, it was stressed, had no quarrel with the Iranian people—only with a regime that seemed bent on getting a nuclear bomb, or at least the capacity for making one. Yet, as sanctions have become increasingly punitive in the face of Iran’s intransigence, it is ordinary Iranians who are paying the price.

On October 1st and 2nd Iran’s rial lost more than 25% of its value against the dollar. Since the end of last year it has depreciated by over 80%, most of that in just the past month. Despite subsidies intended to help the poor, prices for staples, such as milk, bread, rice, yogurt and vegetables, have at least doubled since the beginning of the year. Chicken has become so scarce that when scant supplies become available they prompt riots. On October 3rd police in Tehran fired tear-gas at people demonstrating over the rial’s collapse. The city’s main bazaar closed because of the impossibility of quoting accurate prices.


The Sanctions were working! They were causing the people to get restless toward there radical leaders.

Of course they were getting "restless", sanctions are economic genocide. The question is, what right does the US have to commit genocide against the people of Iran?


But we have a President that practices the policy of appeasement.

In what way is refusing to murder hundreds of thousands of Iranian children the same as "appeasement"?


You of all people should know what this leads to? If you let monsters become strong, many more will die to bring them to there demise!

You can't appease evil NEVER!

The real monsters are in Washington DC. You of all people should know that.


And the Iranian government is hell bent on Nuc's which they will use! And the world will be at war! Not the stupid shit that we play at in the middle east but War in the very since of a true hell on earth!

Iran doesn't even have a nuclear weapon, so you are speculating wildly. And assuming they actually got one, using it against Israel or the US would be suicide. There is no rational game theory scenario where the Iranian government tries to launch an offensive nuclear attack against Israel or the US. They want nukes so that we'll stop trying to destroy their country, and that's perfectly reasonable.

[pjohns]

There is also diplomacy and free trade.

"[D]iplomacy," as practiced by this administration, is just a euphemism for what I already noted, viz.: "capitualation (perhaps disguised as a 'negotiated settlement')."

In order for diplomacy to be effective, there must be a real (not just a theoretical) threat of military force as the alternative; in other words, coercive diplomacy.

On this point, I agree wholeheartedly with Frederick the Great: "Diplomacy without force is like music without instruments."

[Ethereal]

When liberals go this far over the top with emotional demagoguery I have to assume there is no logical argument.

I'm not making an argument, I'm stating simple facts about the consequences of sanctions against Iran. You don't want to seem to confront those consequences.


I do admire those who when facing someone who has sworn to destroy their home, kill them and every one in their family will calmly have a fool negotiate.

Oh, they've "sworn", have they? Well, then let me just crawl underneath my bed and quiver in fear... :rollseyes:

There are a lot of people in the world who hate the US and say bad things about it - often times, justifiably so - but that does not mean they are an actual threat to the "national security" of the entire country. I'm more worried about actions, incentives, and capabilities than I am political rhetoric, and no rational person would believe that the Iranian government actually intends, let alone is capable of, "destroying" America. That is just hysterical nonsense.


Right. President Obama's negotiations with Russia that included, "After the election I can be more flexible" have gone really well, I'm sure, for President Obama. For the country, not particularly. What you really need to do with an implacable enemy is help him get nuclear capability.

President Obama was all for attacking Syria until he realized he couldn't get away with starting yet another war in the ME. And under his Presidency, he has allowed JSOC to go wild all over the globe like some kind of Stalinist death squad. The Islamic world actually hates us more now than they did when Bush was President, thanks to Obama's drone campaign. So, really, you should be proud of Obama. He's done a lot to kill Muslims and destroy their countries.

[Ethereal]

You know, this whole "economic murder" thing is horseshit...

Actually, it's a well-established consequence of sanctions. Sorry if the horrible reality makes you uncomfortable, but that is good. It means there is still hope for you.


...but after reading the OP it's not hard to spot the shit-the-bed approach.

So the US is "murdering" Iranian citizens, the Iranian "supreme leader" is completely absolved from any responsibility? I guess the US is responsible for all of the suffering North Koreans too.

Yeah... right - see ya in church on that one.

Did I say the Iranian government "is completely absolved from any responsibility"?

[Cigar]

While it is perfectly human to feel bad for the people of Iran, it is there leaders insistence on perusing Nuc's that is the problem.

The policy of appeasement that our President is perusing is DANGEROUS! Because it will lead to a regional conflict that will include Russian and US troops in direct conflict with each other!

The Iranian people have a choice of who there leaders are insistent on the destruction of Israel!



I'd rather care for the poor, the children and veterans right here ...

Why isn't anyone calling these other countries lazy and sucking entitlement from Americans?

[Ethereal]

AW Poor Iranians.

Two words

Tough Shit

No wonder Iranians hate us! The US government commits genocide against their people and the response is "tough shit". Truly, the US is a modern Babylon.

[Ethereal]

Wrong.

The actions (or inactions) of Iranian leaders that result in famine are to be blamed.

The fact that rogue countries like this hold their citizens hostage to the world and then blaming ourselves for the outcome is bullshit.

Put the blame where it belongs.

The blame for the sanctions falls on the people who perpetrate them. It's really not that hard to figure out.

[Ethereal]

I understand the liberal pleas to have a heart. Now, liberals, have a brain. The U.S. has not decided to consider sanctions just for the heck of it. They didn't even decide to consider sanctions because they hate the Persians. No, it's in reaction to Iran's government being set on getting a nuclear capability so they can eliminate Israel and kill all the Jews. That's their stated goal.

And, I understand liberals agree with them. So, if there are sanctions, the guilty parties would be the Iranian government and their liberal supporters in the U.S. Now, put your heart on hold for a moment and think.

My brain is functioning just fine. You're the one who seems to have problems with rational thinking, what, with your hysterical speculation about the annihilation of Israel, as if that would somehow benefit Iran. It's laughable!

[Ethereal]

By whom were you allegedly held hostage?

The politicians in Washington DC, who you seem to be a big fan of now that they're trying to murder Iranians. But if they want to make you buy health insurance, well, that is just an outrage!

[Ethereal]

This all fits in with the typical revisonist history where FDR was a fascist, oh.... and a terrorist because he didn't end the depression fast enough and reducing unemployment 10% wasn't good enough..... schtick.....

Huh? You sure you're in the right thread?

[Alyosha]

Patriotism allows people to overlook the actions of their own government when it comes to citizens of the world. It is ironic that it is the same people who argue for how despicable Obamacare is, how Benghazi's cover up is immoral, how in retrospect the Patriot Act was wrong that will turn around and justify our actions when it comes to that which goes on outside our doors, so to speak.

[nathanbforrest45]

The blame for the sanctions falls on the people who perpetrate them. It's really not that hard to figure out.


What would you do to stop the Iranians from developing a nuclear weapon and using it against Israel? If the answer is "I don't know" then you are full of shit in your attacks against the United States. All Iran has to do to end the sanctions is give up its policy of wanting to destroy Israel and fostering terrorism in the region. All they have to do is become civilized. All its citizens have to do is say We are tired of this bullshit and put an end to it. Blaming the West for the dysfunctional policies of Iran is insane.

[Ethereal]

Bottom-Line ... if Obama is for it ... The GOP is against it.

This was clearly pointed out January 20th , 2009 at a dinner table that the GOP leadership held.

The one who proposed the bill was a Democrat, Senator Bob Mendendez. Both Republicans and Democrats are colluding to perpetrate this crime against the people of Iran. Try being consistent for once.

[Ivan88]

While the maniacs in Congress play their games:
The US populace is so stupid.
Our love of sending Talmu-Islamic terrorists to destroy whole countries is coming to America to destroy us.
http://www.almanar.com.lb/english/edimg/2013/Middle_East/Syria/security/thumbs/jihadists_1.jpg






















The UK newspaper Daily Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/syria/10582945/Al-Qaeda-training-British-and-European-jihadists-in-Syria-to-set-up-terror-cells-at-home.html)said Sunday that Al Qaeda terrorist organization is training hundreds of British and European jihadists fighting in Syria and is urging them to return to their countries to set up terrorist cells.


The daily quoted a defector from the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL) that radicals from Britain, Europe and the United States are trained to make bombs and explosive belts and how to blow them up, so as to create new terrorist cells in their home countries.


The defector, known Murad, said that foreign fighters whom he met in Syria " talked often about terrorist attacks. The foreigners were proud of 9/11 and the London bombings."


He added that British, French and Americans fighters have talked about the places that they want to blow them up or or explode themselves in Europe and the United States, according to the Daily Telegraph.

http://www.almanar.com.lb/english/main.php

[Ethereal]

I'm tired of the Iranians.

And I'm tired of war-mongers.

[Ethereal]

"[D]iplomacy," as practiced by this administration, is just a euphemism for what I already noted, viz.: "capitualation (perhaps disguised as a 'negotiated settlement')."

Capitulation to what? Their sovereignty and right to political self-determination?


In order for diplomacy to be effective, there must be a real (not just a theoretical) threat of military force as the alternative; in other words, coercive diplomacy.

On this point, I agree wholeheartedly with Frederick the Great: "Diplomacy without force is like music without instruments."

Yes, let's take our foreign policy ques from a dictator.

[Ivan88]

What would you do to stop the Iranians from developing a nuclear weapon and using it against Israel? If the answer is "I don't know" then you are full of shit in your attacks against the United States. All Iran has to do to end the sanctions is give up its policy of wanting to destroy Israel and fostering terrorism in the region. All they have to do is become civilized. All its citizens have to do is say We are tired of this bullshit and put an end to it. Blaming the West for the dysfunctional policies of Iran is insane.
Iran has not tried to destroy the Israelis. But the Israelis have been trying to get the insane Americans to go attack Iran for them.......and we are economically. We are a nation of crazed war mongers, rampaging around the world tormenting, maiming and slaughtering the little people, and we been doing it for over 200 years.

"extermination, not of soldiers alone, that is the least of the trouble, but the people" .... "We are not fighting against enemy armies, but against an enemy people, both young and old, rich and poor, and they must feel the iron hand of war in the same way as organized armies." US General Sherman

Around 1902 in another attempt to "clean" for "world order"

US General Jacob H. Smith tells the commanding officer of the Marines assigned to attack the island of Samar, Philippines:

"I want no prisoners.

I wish you to kill and burn;

the more you kill and burn the better it will please me."

[Alyosha]

What would you do to stop the Iranians from developing a nuclear weapon and using it against Israel?

He's not an Israeli citizen, nor is Iran so beyond the pale that mutually assured destruction is worth the cost of nuking Israel.

[kilgram]

I'm tired of the Iranians.
Are you going to fight them in the front?

[Ethereal]

Iran has not tried to destroy the Israelis. But the Israelis have been trying to get the insane Americans to go attack Iran for them.......and we are economically. We are a nation of crazed war mongers, rampaging around the world tormenting, maiming and slaughtering the little people, and we been doing it for over 200 years.

"extermination, not of soldiers alone, that is the least of the trouble, but the people" .... "We are not fighting against enemy armies, but against an enemy people, both young and old, rich and poor, and they must feel the iron hand of war in the same way as organized armies." US General Sherman

Around 1902 in another attempt to "clean" for "world order"

US General Jacob H. Smith tells the commanding officer of the Marines assigned to attack the island of Samar, Philippines:

"I want no prisoners.

I wish you to kill and burn;

the more you kill and burn the better it will please me."

US imperialism didn't begin until Lincoln destroyed the republic and it handed it over to wall street. Thomas Jefferson and James Madison fought the Barbary wars in defense of their right to trade and travel on international waters. We did have something close to a republic before Lincoln. Obviously, bad things were happening, but it wasn't systematic and institutionalized the way it is now. That's why George Orwell called the pre-civil war America, "a golden age of America, the period when the great plains were opened up, when wealth and opportunity seemed limitless, and human beings felt free, indeed were free, as they had never been before and may not be again for centuries."

That was the closest thing to true freedom that any people in history ever experienced. That is what we need to return to.

[kilgram]

What would you do to stop the Iranians from developing a nuclear weapon and using it against Israel? If the answer is "I don't know" then you are full of shit in your attacks against the United States. All Iran has to do to end the sanctions is give up its policy of wanting to destroy Israel and fostering terrorism in the region. All they have to do is become civilized. All its citizens have to do is say We are tired of this bullshit and put an end to it. Blaming the West for the dysfunctional policies of Iran is insane.
Why don't they have right to have a nuclear bomb?

The only ones that have used with people are USA.

[Ivan88]

Why don't they have right to have a nuclear bomb?

The only ones that have used with people are USA.
There is another group that uses nuclear bombs, only they use small ones that leave very little gamma ray material behind.
5422

[Captain Obvious]

Why don't they have right to have a nuclear bomb?

The only ones that have used with people are USA.

If you have to ask that question, you are completely lost.

[kilgram]

If you have to ask that question, you are completely lost.
I am not lost.

I don't see them a menace bigger than USA or Israel.

[kilgram]

There is another group that uses nuclear bombs, only they use small ones that leave very little gamma ray material behind.
5422
What group? :)

[nathanbforrest45]

Why don't they have right to have a nuclear bomb?

The only ones that have used with people are USA.

You are joking right? Surely even a Spaniard isn't that fucking dense.

[Captain Obvious]

I am not lost.

I don't see them a menace bigger than USA or Israel.

You are completely lost.

Sorry to break it to you.

[nathanbforrest45]

Why don't they have right to have a nuclear bomb?

The only ones that have used with people are USA.

BTW, if you were trying to shame me or my country you failed. By nuking two cities and killing 100,000 or so people it shortened the war and saved the lives of millions of both Americans and Japanese people. The Japanese leadership was not going to give up and an invasion of the mainland would have resulted in the deaths of millions of people. So, in my opinion we did absolutely the right thing. Furthermore, as I pointed out the nuclear bombs in in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed fewer people than the Japanese did during the so called "Rape of Nanking"

As for why shouldn't Iran have a nuclear weapon, t hat is just too stupid to even consider.

[zelmo1234]

I'm not defending the Iranian regime. They, too, are partly responsible for the economic problems in their country, but there is no way you can argue that they're responsible for an oil embargo that basically destroys their economy and their monetary unit. That was done by sanctions, and sanctions cause death and disease on a massive scale. It's is a form of "civilized" genocide against the weakest and most vulnerable members of society. It is a crime against humanity.





Of course they were getting "restless", sanctions are economic genocide. The question is, what right does the US have to commit genocide against the people of Iran?



In what way is refusing to murder hundreds of thousands of Iranian children the same as "appeasement"?



The real monsters are in Washington DC. You of all people should know that.



Iran doesn't even have a nuclear weapon, so you are speculating wildly. And assuming they actually got one, using it against Israel or the US would be suicide. There is no rational game theory scenario where the Iranian government tries to launch an offensive nuclear attack against Israel or the US. They want nukes so that we'll stop trying to destroy their country, and that's perfectly reasonable.

I wish you were right but I see history repeating itself. They have like Hamas in there charter the destruction of the nations of Israel, they are also not a stupid people and know just because the have nucs does not mean they are of a threat to the USA

Europe and the world tried to appease the monster Hitler in the 1930's and it failed and they had a military powerhouse to deal with in which millions of people were killed

This is what happens when you let evil grow! Israel will not let the complete the project they will attack, and when they do you had better strap your boots back on because like it or not you are heading back to the middle east, but this time you will be facing Russian troops and they are a little better off that those of Iraq and Afghanistan!

The reason that Iran is at the table is because the people were getting restless and talks of revolution were abounding! And that is what needs to happen.

Kerry and Obama are out classed by most 6th grade students and Iran is dictating the terms of how they will slow there push toward a nuc! add to the fact that this administration can't be trusted and you have the recipe for disaster, and I am not willing to take the chance.

[zelmo1234]

I'm not making an argument, I'm stating simple facts about the consequences of sanctions against Iran. You don't want to seem to confront those consequences.



Oh, they've "sworn", have they? Well, then let me just crawl underneath my bed and quiver in fear... :rollseyes:

There are a lot of people in the world who hate the US and say bad things about it - often times, justifiably so - but that does not mean they are an actual threat to the "national security" of the entire country. I'm more worried about actions, incentives, and capabilities than I am political rhetoric, and no rational person would believe that the Iranian government actually intends, let alone is capable of, "destroying" America. That is just hysterical nonsense.



President Obama was all for attacking Syria until he realized he couldn't get away with starting yet another war in the ME. And under his Presidency, he has allowed JSOC to go wild all over the globe like some kind of Stalinist death squad. The Islamic world actually hates us more now than they did when Bush was President, thanks to Obama's drone campaign. So, really, you should be proud of Obama. He's done a lot to kill Muslims and destroy their countries.

All the more reason not to trust this administration and keep the pressure on!

[zelmo1234]

My brain is functioning just fine. You're the one who seems to have problems with rational thinking, what, with your hysterical speculation about the annihilation of Israel, as if that would somehow benefit Iran. It's laughable!

I thought that you were over in the ME???? did you not talk to anyone while you were there????

[zelmo1234]

Patriotism allows people to overlook the actions of their own government when it comes to citizens of the world. It is ironic that it is the same people who argue for how despicable Obamacare is, how Benghazi's cover up is immoral, how in retrospect the Patriot Act was wrong that will turn around and justify our actions when it comes to that which goes on outside our doors, so to speak.

I don't think that anyone can overlook the consequences of there actions! However sometimes those actions are necessary to maintain peace and not have things escalate!

The nations of Israel can't let the nations of Iran become armed with Nuc's It would put them in grave danger from a religious government that would see Armageddon on earth!

The people of Iran have the responsibility to cast off this government just as the people of colonial America did! So while it is not nice to create these hardships for the people, it is the policies of there government that pose a threat to the world that can't be appeased!

It is nothing more than an act of war, and war by definition is hell on earth!

[The Xl]

I'm tired of the Iranians.

They should be tired of us, frankly. We're the ones interfering in their affairs.

[Alyosha]

I thought that you were over in the ME???? did you not talk to anyone while you were there????

He talked to a lot of people while he was kicking in their doors, invading their homes, and eating their food because they hate us for our freedoms.

[The Xl]

He talked to a lot of people while he was kicking in their doors, invading their homes, and eating their food because they hate us for our freedoms.

America, fuck yeah

[Alyosha]

I don't think that anyone can overlook the consequences of there actions! However sometimes those actions are necessary to maintain peace and not have things escalate!

The nations of Israel can't let the nations of Iran become armed with Nuc's It would put them in grave danger from a religious government that would see Armageddon on earth!

The people of Iran have the responsibility to cast off this government just as the people of colonial America did! So while it is not nice to create these hardships for the people, it is the policies of there government that pose a threat to the world that can't be appeased!

It is nothing more than an act of war, and war by definition is hell on earth!


When is the last time Iran invaded another country? Iraq attacked them, first.

Saber rattling is not proof of aggression. Why should we have nukes? We're the only nation that has actually used them.

[zelmo1234]

He's not an Israeli citizen, nor is Iran so beyond the pale that mutually assured destruction is worth the cost of nuking Israel.

But in the case of Iran, you are dealing with religious leaders that are willing to except mutual destruction as victory? That is what make this nations such a threat to world peace!

This evil must be confronted now! to keep your children safe from another conflict. WE have a President that has weakened America to the best of his ability because of his belief in appeasement


From one who is older? and a student of history, it has never worked and always turns out with a real war, not the dressed practice that we have had for the past decade!

[The Xl]

When is the last time Iran invaded another country? Iraq attacked them, first.

Saber rattling is not proof of aggression. Why should we have nukes? We're the only nation that has actually used them.

Don't expect a logical response.

[Captain Obvious]

Fuck Iran.

[The Xl]

Fuck Iran.


Don't expect a logical response.

[nathanbforrest45]

When is the last time Iran invaded another country? Iraq attacked them, first.

Saber rattling is not proof of aggression. Why should we have nukes? We're the only nation that has actually used them.


Oh, Lord God In Heaven. Not another one!!!!

[zelmo1234]

He talked to a lot of people while he was kicking in their doors, invading their homes, and eating their food because they hate us for our freedoms.

So did I and there is a reason that we are the Great Satin! Trust me when the government decided to do things so disgusting that they did not want there finger prints on it the hire others to do the dirty work! But there is a little satin too and many of these nations have vowed to drive them to the sea!

PS I know that he did? But he is acting strange today! I have respect for them. But if we left the middle east tomorrow never to return, there hate would not subside!

[The Xl]

Oh, Lord God In Heaven. Not another one!!!!

Not a logical response. That's two.

[Alyosha]

You are joking right? Surely even a Spaniard isn't that fucking dense.

When has Spain dropped a bomb? How about Iran? When's the last time Iran invaded anyone?

Give you a hint: men still wore sandals and terped little boys for a living.

[nathanbforrest45]

Fuck Iran.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-zoPgv_nYg

[Ethereal]

I thought that you were over in the ME???? did you not talk to anyone while you were there????

I did. I actually made friends with some of the Iraqi police officers who we were training to fight AQ. They are humans, just like us. They just want to have a decent living and a family. They are not my enemies.

[Ivan88]

Are you going to fight them in the front? No, they much prefer to have their cute whore, "Christian" America, do the dirty work and pay the bills.
5423

[Alyosha]

When we call people an Axis of Evil and we have the largest military in the world, what should they do or expect from us?

Iran is not the threat we are. We are the mastiff complaining about how scary the shih tzu is and how it might bite at the poodle right after we attacked a beagle.

I have no other analogy or way of explaining it. The rest of the world sees our actions in Iraq as irrational and mercenary and fear US. Are WE scary? Should they be afraid?

Why are we less scary than Iran?

Because we trust ourselves.

[Alyosha]

I did. I actually made friends with some of the Iraqi police officers who we were training to fight AQ. They are humans, just like us. They just want to have a decent living and a family. They are not my enemies.

:)

[zelmo1234]

Oh, Lord God In Heaven. Not another one!!!!

Careful I know where they are coming from when you have walker those hard miles and paid the price that they have paid! it is easy to want it all to go away!

They have paid a price far greater than most!

Look at the USA after the hell that was WWI we would have done anything to stay out of another war? But evil will come knocking and if left unchecked, it will be stronger and many more will have to sacrifice there life to defeat it!

Because the USA does not fight a War in the reals sense of what wars once were and do not demand unconditional surrender, these evils are left to fester and grow!

But it seems so cruel to do what often needs to be done when facing monsters, look at the biblical nation of Israel they were told to kill every man women and child as they entered there home that God had given to them, burn the fields and kill all of the livestock?

And because they were human? They could not do it! and we are left with the conflict so today! It is hard and it is hell and while I disagree with there solution I fully understand why they would want to take that path!

[zelmo1234]

I did. I actually made friends with some of the Iraqi police officers who we were training to fight AQ. They are humans, just like us. They just want to have a decent living and a family. They are not my enemies.

Did you meet any monsters????

And before you go off? let me tell you I not only met them but tried to arrange for many of them to leave because they were in danger form the fanatics?

[Alyosha]

Careful I know where they are coming from when you have walker those hard miles and paid the price that they have paid! it is easy to want it all to go away!

Yes he should be careful with Code and Ethereal. They are nice men. Not everyone is as nice as they are. Me, for example.

[Ethereal]

I wish you were right but I see history repeating itself. They have like Hamas in there charter the destruction of the nations of Israel, they are also not a stupid people and know just because the have nucs does not mean they are of a threat to the USA

If Iran tried to nuke Israel or the US, it would result in their utter destruction. They don't want a nuclear weapon so that they can attack Israel or the US, they want one so that we'll stop attacking them!


Europe and the world tried to appease the monster Hitler in the 1930's and it failed and they had a military powerhouse to deal with in which millions of people were killed

Western Europe did not try to appease Hitler. They declared war on him after he tried to reunite Germany. It was Great Britain and France who started WWII, not Germany.


This is what happens when you let evil grow! Israel will not let the complete the project they will attack, and when they do you had better strap your boots back on because like it or not you are heading back to the middle east, but this time you will be facing Russian troops and they are a little better off that those of Iraq and Afghanistan!

The reason that Iran is at the table is because the people were getting restless and talks of revolution were abounding! And that is what needs to happen.

Kerry and Obama are out classed by most 6th grade students and Iran is dictating the terms of how they will slow there push toward a nuc! add to the fact that this administration can't be trusted and you have the recipe for disaster, and I am not willing to take the chance.

If there is a war between Israel and Iran, I will move to the Caribbean and forsake this nation of Babylon forever.

[nathanbforrest45]

What if they gave a war and no body came?

[Alyosha]

If there is a war between Israel and Iran, I will move to the Caribbean and forsake this nation of Babylon forever.

I hear Belize is nice.

[nathanbforrest45]

If Iran tried to nuke Israel or the US, it would result in their utter destruction. They don't want a nuclear weapon so that they can attack Israel or the US, they want one so that we'll stop attacking them!



Western Europe did not try to appease Hitler. They declared war on him after he tried to reunite Germany. It was Great Britain and France who started WWII, not Germany.



If there is a war between Israel and Iran, I will move to the Caribbean and forsake this nation of Babylon forever.


You must live in Colorado.

[zelmo1234]

When we call people an Axis of Evil and we have the largest military in the world, what should they do or expect from us?

Iran is not the threat we are. We are the mastiff complaining about how scary the shih tzu is and how it might bite at the poodle right after we attacked a beagle.

I have no other analogy or way of explaining it. The rest of the world sees our actions in Iraq as irrational and mercenary and fear US. Are WE scary? Should they be afraid?

Why are we less scary than Iran?

Because we trust ourselves.

We also have a proven track record of not taking territory in conflict and the generosity of trying to rebuild nations, Your guys are Hero's I will take nothing away from them.

They were not allowed to win a , and thus the things they were asked to do was monstrous and I am sure they have dreams that haunt then constantly!

Unfortunately the people of the ME or many of them are run by religious fanatics that have no interest in letting the good people of there nations live a peaceful life!

And while the people may fear the actions of our military and contractors, the religious leaders know that the lifestyle of the west represents an end to there way of life and thus there power to rule. And that is what you are fighting!

[Ethereal]

Did you meet any monsters????

Yes, AQ was there, and I was training the Sunni Iraqis to eject them from their cities, and they actually succeeded for a while. Most of the people there hated AQ and wanted them gone. They don't want to wage Jihad against the US or Israel, they want their market to stop getting blown up by Americans and AQ!

[nathanbforrest45]

Kind of like the French in WW2. They didn't really care that the Germans were taking over their country. Just leave them their wine and cheese and they would have been happy.

[zelmo1234]

If Iran tried to nuke Israel or the US, it would result in their utter destruction. They don't want a nuclear weapon so that they can attack Israel or the US, they want one so that we'll stop attacking them!



Western Europe did not try to appease Hitler. They declared war on him after he tried to reunite Germany. It was Great Britain and France who started WWII, not Germany.



If there is a war between Israel and Iran, I will move to the Caribbean and forsake this nation of Babylon forever.

I am sorry but they signed treaty after treaty giving him more and more land.

If that is your view of WWII I find you a very dangerous person and wonder what darkness you are hiding. I am very skeptical of you at this moment.

You are starting to remind me of???? ME! and that is dangerous!

[Alyosha]

We also have a proven track record of not taking territory in conflict and the generosity of trying to rebuild nations, Your guys are Hero's I will take nothing away from them.

No we don't. We invade and then allow our businesses to set up and profit through corporations. They are still our vassals whether we are honest about it or not.

[zelmo1234]

Yes, AQ was there, and I was training the Sunni Iraqis to eject them from their cities, and they actually succeeded for a while. Most of the people there hated AQ and wanted them gone. They don't want to wage Jihad against the US or Israel, they want their market to stop getting blown up by Americans and AQ!

And did AQ return? and does AQ repress then and make them submit to there view and ways??

[Alyosha]

Kind of like the French in WW2. They didn't really care that the Germans were taking over their country. Just leave them their wine and cheese and they would have been happy.

You aren't a very deep study of WWII. The French Resistance acted at great cost to their lives and was instrumental to the American and British invasion.

[Green Arrow]

I find it interesting that zelmo1234 is the only supporter of sanctions on this thread that is actually trying to carry on a logical discussion, instead of acting like a child who isn't getting his way like...pretty much every other supporter of sanctions on this thread.

zelmo, do you believe, like most Christians, that the Jews are god's chosen people and that he established Israel for them?

[nathanbforrest45]

You aren't a very deep study of WWII. The French Resistance acted at great cost to their lives and was instrumental to the American and British invasion.


Most of the French could care less who was in charge as long as they were left alone. They had been in too many wars to want to get embroiled in another one. Yes the Resistance existed but so did the Vichy French and I think more Frenchmen supported the Vichy than the Resistance.

[Ethereal]

What would you do to stop the Iranians from developing a nuclear weapon and using it against Israel?

They are not going to nuke Israel. Get real!


If the answer is "I don't know" then you are full of shit in your attacks against the United States. All Iran has to do to end the sanctions is give up its policy of wanting to destroy Israel and fostering terrorism in the region. All they have to do is become civilized. All its citizens have to do is say We are tired of this bullshit and put an end to it. Blaming the West for the dysfunctional policies of Iran is insane.

It wasn't Iran who infiltrated America in the fifties and overthrew our democratically elected government. It wasn't Iran who encouraged Canada to invade the US in the 80's. And it wasn't Iran who levied sanctions on the US since forever. All the aggression and hostility has come from the US and Israel. Iran is simply acting in self-defense. They believe if they get a nuke, the US, the UK, and Israel will stop trying to destroy their country.

[nathanbforrest45]

I find it interesting that @zelmo1234 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=588) is the only supporter of sanctions on this thread that is actually trying to carry on a logical discussion, instead of acting like a child who isn't getting his way like...pretty much every other supporter of sanctions on this thread.

zelmo, do you believe, like most Christians, that the Jews are god's chosen people and that he established Israel for them?


I certainly do.

[zelmo1234]

I find it interesting that @zelmo1234 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=588) is the only supporter of sanctions on this thread that is actually trying to carry on a logical discussion, instead of acting like a child who isn't getting his way like...pretty much every other supporter of sanctions on this thread.

zelmo, do you believe, like most Christians, that the Jews are god's chosen people and that he established Israel for them?

I believe in my Bible and it tell s me that God shoes his people Israel and that he gave them the land.

I also believe that they people of Israel turned there back on him and that all of the predictions of them living in a state of war are true. I believe Revelations that talks about the final battles that will consume 1/3 of the worlds populations and have the famines and sickness that follows take out 1/3rd more!

And after this if the lord would not return that the world would be gone, But for some reason I would like to put it off as long as possible!

[Ethereal]

I am sorry but they signed treaty after treaty giving him more and more land.

If that is your view of WWII I find you a very dangerous person and wonder what darkness you are hiding. I am very skeptical of you at this moment.

You are starting to remind me of???? ME! and that is dangerous!

Okay, well you can go fuck yourself then. I am just trying to have a discussion about foreign policy and you're accusing me of being "dangerous" and hiding "darkness". How about you just refrain from addressing me and my own from now on....

[zelmo1234]

You aren't a very deep study of WWII. The French Resistance acted at great cost to their lives and was instrumental to the American and British invasion.

The military actually acted bravely to they just had a false hope in there defenses, much like we have here in this country being so far from the conflicts of the world!

[Green Arrow]

I certainly do.

Do you believe that they have god's protection?

[Green Arrow]

I believe in my Bible and it tell s me that God shoes his people Israel and that he gave them the land.

I also believe that they people of Israel turned there back on him and that all of the predictions of them living in a state of war are true. I believe Revelations that talks about the final battles that will consume 1/3 of the worlds populations and have the famines and sickness that follows take out 1/3rd more!

And after this if the lord would not return that the world would be gone, But for some reason I would like to put it off as long as possible!

Is your god protecting Israel?

[kilgram]

BTW, if you were trying to shame me or my country you failed. By nuking two cities and killing 100,000 or so people it shortened the war and saved the lives of millions of both Americans and Japanese people. The Japanese leadership was not going to give up and an invasion of the mainland would have resulted in the deaths of millions of people. So, in my opinion we did absolutely the right thing. Furthermore, as I pointed out the nuclear bombs in in both Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed fewer people than the Japanese did during the so called "Rape of Nanking"

As for why shouldn't Iran have a nuclear weapon, t hat is just too stupid to even consider.
Japan already lost the war. They were going to surrender, yet.

In my opinion USA committed a crime against humanity in the same level of the ones committed of the URSS.

[zelmo1234]

Okay, well you can go fuck yourself then. I am just trying to have a discussion about foreign policy and you're accusing me of being "dangerous" and hiding "darkness". How about you just refrain from addressing me and my own from now on....

I don't think that I will give up my freedom of speech that easily, Sorry I pissed you off not my intent!

You will notice that I compared you to ME! But I am very concerned about your thoughts on Brittan and the French and Hitler's Germany!

And while the victors do get to write history I am a skeptic of German heritage and I can find NO redeeming factor in its rise to power before the second WW!

It would explain your ideas of appeasement! That might be the wrong word, but it is the only one I can think of!

And Now could you really look me in the eye and tell me that you are not a dangerous person after what they have trained you to do? Are you not the one referred to as brainy dog? :)

I called you nothing I would not assume the title of myself!

[Ethereal]

I don't think that I will give up my freedom of speech that easily, Sorry I pissed you off not my intent!

You will notice that I compared you to ME! But I am very concerned about your thoughts on Brittan and the French and Hitler's Germany!

And while the victors do get to write history I am a skeptic of German heritage and I can find NO redeeming factor in its rise to power before the second WW!

It would explain your ideas of appeasement! That might be the wrong word, but it is the only one I can think of!

And Now could you really look me in the eye and tell me that you are not a dangerous person after what they have trained you to do? Are you not the one referred to as brainy dog? :)

I called you nothing I would not assume the title of myself!

No, I am not a dangerous person, and I resent being characterized as such. You should know that veterans don't like to be singled out as "dangerous" in this day and age.

[zelmo1234]

Is your god protecting Israel?

Ah! thought that is where you were going! I would guess that you have read the bible, if out of nothing more than being curious?

Now the bible says that the lord with have mercy on whom he will have mercy and judgment on whom he will have judgment! Israel was told that they would live a life of war, until the second coming when they would be forced to acknowledge him lord.

So he has vowed to protect them as a people and not let them be removed from the earth! But just as he allowed the holocaust to happen, he does let those that are his people suffer? I also believe the book of revelations and that hell on earth!

I am one of those that does not try to pick and choose the parts that I will abide by! So that being said, I know that there is war coming before the final war! because the temple will be restored and that mosque that occupies the temple mount will be gone!

Like I said for some reason I would just like to put it off a while longer!

[zelmo1234]

No, I am not a dangerous person, and I resent being characterized as such. You should know that veterans don't like to be singled out as "dangerous" in this day and age.

I am sorry! I think that you know it was not my intention to offend! I hope that I can get to the point were the dangerous person that resides in me is gone someday too! I have tried many things including letting myself go to hell? But that guy can still be brought to the surface if the need arises!

And that scares the hell out of me!

[Ethereal]

I am sorry! I think that you know it was not my intention to offend! I hope that I can get to the point were the dangerous person that resides in me is gone someday too! I have tried many things including letting myself go to hell? But that guy can still be brought to the surface if the need arises!

And that scares the hell out of me!

Apology accepted. Just remember, the NSA and the FBI are always listening, so be careful how you phrase things... :glasses7:

[Codename Section]

No, I am not a dangerous person, and I resent being characterized as such. You should know that veterans don't like to be singled out as "dangerous" in this day and age.

Hell yeh, devil dog.

You're not dangerous. You're a man of peace. Just like me.

[Ivan88]

Now the bible says that the lord with have mercy on whom he will have mercy and judgment on whom he will have judgment! Israel was told that they would live a life of war, until the second coming when they would be forced to acknowledge him lord.
Like I said for some reason I would just like to put it off a while longer!

There was a "second coming" in 70 A.D.
And Israel did acknowledge Him as Lord.
Christian Israel accepted Jesus Christ as the King of Earth and the Universe.

Now, a days, most "Christians" are like the wicked servant that said, "My master delayeth his coming."

They refuse to recognize that He rules His Kingdom on Earth in the Present, Here and Now.
Thus they have become His enemies, "which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me." Luke 19:27
5427

[Ethereal]

Hell yeh, devil dog.

You're not dangerous. You're a man of peace. Just like me.

The pen is mightier than the sword.

[zelmo1234]

The pen is mightier than the sword.

Now you are getting it! :)

[nathanbforrest45]

Do you believe that they have god's protection?

If they will acknowledge God they will have his protection. It is only when they worship Baal that God ignores the Jew.

[nathanbforrest45]

Japan already lost the war. They were going to surrender, yet.

In my opinion USA committed a crime against humanity in the same level of the ones committed of the URSS.


Don't know much do you. Japan had lost the war. Japan had lost the war after the Battle of Midway but the Japanese leadership was not going to surrender until the last Japanese citizen was dead. That is a fact that you can take to the bank. You can believe we are the devil incarnate all you wish but I don't have much use for you to be honest. I think you are a Nazi and would gladly enslave half the world.

[nathanbforrest45]

Don't know why you are worried about insulting that fool. He certainly doesn't seem to mind insulting the rest of us.

[Green Arrow]

Ah! thought that is where you were going! I would guess that you have read the bible, if out of nothing more than being curious?

Of course. I have the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Hindu bible apps on my phone. I was raised Christian and was a Jewish convert for ten years. I'm just offering up the argument out of curiosity. I know I convinced my dad (who is a very deeply religious Christian) to support my non-interventionist approach by using that argument. He does believe that Israel has god's protection and as such, doesn't need our help.


Now the bible says that the lord with have mercy on whom he will have mercy and judgment on whom he will have judgment! Israel was told that they would live a life of war, until the second coming when they would be forced to acknowledge him lord.

So he has vowed to protect them as a people and not let them be removed from the earth! But just as he allowed the holocaust to happen, he does let those that are his people suffer? I also believe the book of revelations and that hell on earth!

I am one of those that does not try to pick and choose the parts that I will abide by! So that being said, I know that there is war coming before the final war! because the temple will be restored and that mosque that occupies the temple mount will be gone!

Like I said for some reason I would just like to put it off a while longer!

I can respect that. I disagree, but I can respect that.

[Codename Section]

Don't know why you are worried about insulting that fool. He certainly doesn't seem to mind insulting the rest of us.

Ethereal is a smart cat. Anyone who says otherwise is being dishonest. You may not like him, but he's not a fool.

[Ethereal]

Don't know why you are worried about insulting that fool. He certainly doesn't seem to mind insulting the rest of us.

yea, because you've been such a nice guy in this thread...

[Ethereal]

Ethereal is a smart cat. Anyone who says otherwise is being dishonest. You may not like him, but he's not a fool.

Nathan would like to pretend that he just innocently strolled into the thread and got insulted by mean old me. Hist first post was nothing more than a flippant remark with potty language in it. Now he's playing the victim.

[Codename Section]

Nathan would like to pretend that he just innocently strolled into the thread and got insulted by mean old me. Hist first post was nothing more than a flippant remark with potty language in it. Now he's playing the victim.

You're probably not going to win Mr. Congeniality anytime soon, but you're not a fool. That's just a dude who can't defeat your argument scrambling for something to say.

[zelmo1234]

Of course. I have the Christian, Jewish, Muslim, and Hindu bible apps on my phone. I was raised Christian and was a Jewish convert for ten years. I'm just offering up the argument out of curiosity. I know I convinced my dad (who is a very deeply religious Christian) to support my non-interventionist approach by using that argument. He does believe that Israel has god's protection and as such, doesn't need our help.



I can respect that. I disagree, but I can respect that.

I Thank You for that and I respect your position as well!

WE can't all be right :) You are a good egg, I try to be but fail sometimes!

[Green Arrow]

I Thank You for that and I respect your position as well!

WE can't all be right :) You are a good egg, I try to be but fail sometimes!

Nah, you're fine, dude. We all have our moments.

[jillian]

https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s1881/text

*snip*

Villains, every last one.

no. it isn't "economic murder"
no. they aren't villains.

yes, they're wrong.

your verbiage is even more excessive than their's

[Green Arrow]

no. it isn't "economic murder"
no. they aren't villains.

yes, they're wrong.

your verbiage is even more excessive than their's

How is it not economic murder?

[Alyosha]

no. it isn't "economic murder"
no. they aren't villains.

yes, they're wrong.

your verbiage is even more excessive than their's

When you know the outcome and do it anyway, you might as well call them villains and murderers. You can't wash your hands of the outcomes when you know ahead of time what they will be.

There's no white hat to this one.

The poor always suffer in economic embargoes, never the rich or the politicians. Look at Iraq. The people starved and Saddam lived in palaces.

[Alyosha]

You're probably not going to win Mr. Congeniality anytime soon, but you're not a fool. That's just a dude who can't defeat your argument scrambling for something to say.

:)

[zelmo1234]

[QUOTE=nathanbforrest45;496312]Don't know why you are worried about insulting that fool. He certainly doesn't seem to mind insulting the rest of us.[

I have become quite fond of that group down there, I consider them to be very honorable people. And my intention was not to offend him.

Nor was it his intentions to offend me, we just happen to have passionate feelings on this subject. You are making accusations on a man that I know to be honorable and trustworthy!

And I make it my missions to show they the respect that they have earned!

[Alyosha]

[QUOTE=nathanbforrest45;496312]Don't know why you are worried about insulting that fool. He certainly doesn't seem to mind insulting the rest of us.[

I have become quite fond of that group down there, I consider them to be very honorable people. And my intention was not to offend him.

Nor was it his intentions to offend me, we just happen to have passionate feelings on this subject. You are making accusations on a man that I know to be honorable and trustworthy!

And I make it my missions to show they the respect that they have earned!


Thank you, zelmo1234 Ethereal is honorable and trustworthy. He is a good man, but he's not a teddy bear. He'd admit that.

[zelmo1234]

[QUOTE=zelmo1234;496522]


Thank you, @zelmo1234 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=588) @Ethereal (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=870) is honorable and trustworthy. He is a good man, but he's not a teddy bear. He'd admit that.

I have an uncanny ability to push people buttons? And it looks like I am getting ready to spend more dollars than I care to think about, so I will likely be pushing all the wrong buttons for the next few months

[Ethereal]

Your assertions lack substance.


no. it isn't "economic murder"

PBS | Health Group: Sanctions Put Tens of Thousands of Iranian Children at Risk (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/2012/07/news-health-group-sanctions-put-tens-of-thousands-of-iranian-children-at-risk.html#ixzz2qzdw6Ae0)
Profressor Cole, University of Michigan | US, UN Sanctions on Iran Hurt Most Vulnerable (http://www.juancole.com/2013/09/sanctions-iran-vulnerable.html)
The New York Times | In Iran, the Wrong People Are Suffering (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/11/19/sanctions-successes-and-failures/in-iran-sanctions-hurt-the-wrong-people)


no. they aren't villains.

Their actions are causing the needless death of thousands of innocent people. Seems pretty villainous to me.


yes, they're wrong.

Why?


your verbiage is even more excessive than their's

I guess I'm just passionate about not killing innocent people.

[Alyosha]

Your assertions lack substance.



PBS | Health Group: Sanctions Put Tens of Thousands of Iranian Children at Risk (http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/tehranbureau/2012/07/news-health-group-sanctions-put-tens-of-thousands-of-iranian-children-at-risk.html#ixzz2qzdw6Ae0)
Profressor Cole, University of Michigan | US, UN Sanctions on Iran Hurt Most Vulnerable (http://www.juancole.com/2013/09/sanctions-iran-vulnerable.html)
The New York Times | In Iran, the Wrong People Are Suffering (http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/11/19/sanctions-successes-and-failures/in-iran-sanctions-hurt-the-wrong-people)



Their actions are causing the needless death of thousands of innocent people. Seems pretty villainous to me.



Why?



I guess I'm just passionate about not killing innocent people.

There is no ambiguity in the world of the modern progressive, just yes/no, right/wrong with "us" always being right.

[Chris]

Interesting thread. It seems the people of Iran are mere pawns played by two governments. One, the Iranian government, a theocratic statist regime covers it's failures to serve its people with distracting scapegoats from Israel to the US. And an interventionist US state joins in the chess game with sanctions that harm no one but the people and probably doubling the scapegoating by the Iranian government.

[The Xl]

Anyone who supports sanctions is a stupid. It will only hurt the most vulnerable civilian population. That'll show the Iranian elite, I'm sure.

[Captain Obvious]

So trade with Iran so that the elite and theocracy can fatten themselves and their engines of war while the people still starve and suffer.

Just like North Korea?

Inform, think, react.

[Alyosha]

So trade with Iran so that the elite and theocracy can fatten themselves and their engines of war while the people still starve and suffer.

Just like North Korea?

Inform, think, react.

Actually not like North Korea. Iranians aren't starving, CO. They're going to coffee shops, having tea, buying scarves, etc.

[Captain Obvious]

Actually not like North Korea. Iranians aren't starving, CO. They're going to coffee shops, having tea, buying scarves, etc.

You two aren't implying that sanctions will cause great harm to people? As in suffering, starvation, death?

Or are you two just worried that there will be a shortage of Pokemon cards due to sanctions?

[The Xl]

So trade with Iran so that the elite and theocracy can fatten themselves and their engines of war while the people still starve and suffer.

Just like North Korea?

Inform, think, react.
The numbers speak for themselves, they hurt their civilian population. http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/11/19/sanctions-successes-and-failures/in-iran-sanctions-hurt-the-wrong-people

You can be all herp derp they're fucked anyway about it, but the numbers show that they're worse off with the sanctions. Tell me, how are sanctions hurting their elite, though? That's right, they aren't. So you're backing a policy that does not hurt the people you want to be hurt by it, merely the population that has done nothing wrong. Absolutely brilliant.

Heed your own advice before attempting to impose it on others.

[Alyosha]

You two aren't implying that sanctions will cause great harm to people? As in suffering, starvation, death?

Or are you two just worried that there will be a shortage of Pokemon cards due to sanctions?

I think you must hate me now, Captain. You're just phoning in the humor. Why do you show Cigar more love than me? :(


The sanctions will hurt the Iranians. Ethereal provided the links. Sanctions usually hurt the poor instead of the rich. That's the objection to them.

[The Xl]

You two aren't implying that sanctions will cause great harm to people? As in suffering, starvation, death?

Or are you two just worried that there will be a shortage of Pokemon cards due to sanctions?

What kind of response is this?

[Captain Obvious]

The numbers speak for themselves, they hurt their civilian population. http://www.nytimes.com/roomfordebate/2013/11/19/sanctions-successes-and-failures/in-iran-sanctions-hurt-the-wrong-people

You can be all herp derp they're fucked anyway about it, but the numbers show that they're worse off with the sanctions. Tell me, how are sanctions hurting their elite, though? That's right, they aren't. So you're backing a policy that does not hurt the people you want to be hurt by it, merely the population that has been nothing wrong. Absolutely brilliant.

Heed your own advice before attempting to impose it on others.

First - you two are clearly on a different page, which is ok I guess.

Second - of course they're worse off with sanctions. Duh...

Third - if the theocracy there cared about it's people, they would play nice. Like most gubmints, they don't give a fuck about their people, they use them as virtual human shields. Political/economic hostages. And yet you say we're the bad guy for not supplying them (the country, not the people) with resources to further an agenda of belligerence which is their #1 priority?

We're the bad guy?

You could not be more wrong. Get some more life experience, it will click for you some day.

[Alyosha]

What kind of response is this?

I have no idea. I play Magic, not Pokemon.

[nathanbforrest45]

Ethereal is a smart cat. Anyone who says otherwise is being dishonest. You may not like him, but he's not a fool.

OK, so he is not a fool but he is foolish.

[Captain Obvious]

I think you must hate me now, Captain. You're just phoning in the humor. Why do you show Cigar more love than me? :(


The sanctions will hurt the Iranians. Ethereal provided the links. Sanctions usually hurt the poor instead of the rich. That's the objection to them.

Now you're making me feel like a dick.

Thought you liked to drop the gloves every now and then.

Plus I think you speak a different language than me.

[Alyosha]

First - you two are clearly on a different page, which is ok I guess.

Second - of course they're worse off with sanctions. Duh...

Third - if the theocracy there cared about it's people, they would play nice. Like most gubmints, they don't give a fuck about their people, they use them as virtual human shields. Political/economic hostages. And yet you say we're the bad guy for not supplying them (the country, not the people) with resources to further an agenda of belligerence which is their #1 priority?

We're the bad guy?

You could not be more wrong. Get some more life experience, it will click for you some day.

We are not wrong. You've admitted sanctions hurt the poor. The theocracy there cares about the souls of its people more than their physical bodies, but they do care. The laws there punish usury. Our don't. The laws there promote charity. Our don't. It's different and intolerable if you're female, but they do care. You're speaking as though they will react like a western nation and advocating policy like this is not a theocracy or anticipating how they should react based on western thought.

Regardless of how you feel about their theocracy you wish to advocate a policy that will hurt the weakest there just to promote a national security policy decision that has nothing to do with US national security.

You and I both know Iran wouldn't start a war with the US.

We are the bad guy because we know who it will hurt and don't give a shit. We made a choice about life A being more valuable than life B and no one should have that authority. You've said as much in the abortion threads, Captain.

Who gets to choose which life has value?

Lastly, I have a lot of life experience, so it's not quite fair to pretend that if I became an alcoholic and then went to AA and gave a speech I'm better suited to talk than if I were to have taken 24 credit hours at Georgetown in international affairs and law.

[Alyosha]

Now you're making me feel like a dick.

Thought you liked to drop the gloves every now and then.

Plus I think you speak a different language than me.

I love dropping the gloves but you save the funnier stuff for Cigar. :(

Why can't you insult me with the same vim and vigor? I get jealous ya know.

[Captain Obvious]

I love dropping the gloves but you save the funnier stuff for Cigar. :(

Why can't you insult me with the same vim and vigor? I get jealous ya know.

wait... what?

[Captain Obvious]

We are not wrong. You've admitted sanctions hurt the poor. The theocracy there cares about the souls of its people more than their physical bodies, but they do care. The laws there punish usury. Our don't. The laws there promote charity. Our don't. It's different and intolerable if you're female, but they do care. You're speaking as though they will react like a western nation and advocating policy like this is not a theocracy or anticipating how they should react based on western thought.

Regardless of how you feel about their theocracy you wish to advocate a policy that will hurt the weakest there just to promote a national security policy decision that has nothing to do with US national security.

You and I both know Iran wouldn't start a war with the US.

We are the bad guy because we know who it will hurt and don't give a shit. We made a choice about life A being more valuable than life B and no one should have that authority. You've said as much in the abortion threads, Captain.

Who gets to choose which life has value?

Lastly, I have a lot of life experience, so it's not quite fair to pretend that if I became an alcoholic and then went to AA and gave a speech I'm better suited to talk than if I were to have taken 24 credit hours at Georgetown in international affairs and law.

First - that was a comment to XL, hope he's pissed off at it also (not for a long time tho)

Second - I strongly oppose paying "ransom" to rogue governments who hold their people hostage. Period. If we are concerned about a brutal theocratic oppression then we should overthrow the regime instead of strengthening it.

Third - fuck it!

[The Xl]

First - you two are clearly on a different page, which is ok I guess.

Second - of course they're worse off with sanctions. Duh...

Third - if the theocracy there cared about it's people, they would play nice. Like most gubmints, they don't give a fuck about their people, they use them as virtual human shields. Political/economic hostages. And yet you say we're the bad guy for not supplying them (the country, not the people) with resources to further an agenda of belligerence which is their #1 priority?

We're the bad guy?

You could not be more wrong. Get some more life experience, it will click for you some day.

Imposing a policy that does absolutely nothing to hurt their elite yet hurts their civilian population badly is beyond retarded and futile, no matter how you attempt to spin it. It's like hating someone and beating the fuck out of the neighbor they don't care about. Brilliant. That's getting shit done.

It's already clicked for me, on a level you'll probably never attain, despite being old as fuck.

[Chris]

Anyone who supports sanctions is a stupid. It will only hurt the most vulnerable civilian population. That'll show the Iranian elite, I'm sure.

Opposite with foreign aid going to ruling parties and their cronies instead of the people it's intended for.

[Captain Obvious]

Imposing a policy that does absolutely nothing to hurt their elite yet hurts their civilian population badly is beyond retarded and futile, no matter how you attempt to spin it.

It's already clicked for me, on a level you'll probably never attain, despite being old as fuck.

You should write that down, encase it in a jar, bury it and dig it up 20 years later.

And have a good laugh.

I still think you're completely wrong. Paying "ransom" to rogue states who hold their citizens hostage is wrong. Supporting the economies of rogue states who's goal is to eliminate Israel and western culture is wrong. The fact that these rogue states will continue this agenda of futility at the expense of the health and well being of it's own citizens does not make us the bad guy here no matter how much you want to spin that top.

[Chris]

So trade with Iran so that the elite and theocracy can fatten themselves and their engines of war while the people still starve and suffer.

Just like North Korea?

Inform, think, react.



Actually, nations don't trade, they try to manage individuals who do.

[Captain Obvious]

Opposite with foreign aid going to ruling parties and their cronies instead of the people it's intended for.

http://www.demotivationalposters.org/image/demotivational-poster/1108/money-shot-money-shot-girl-tongue-eye-demotivational-posters-1314575100.jpg

[The Xl]

You should write that down, encase it in a jar, bury it and dig it up 20 years later.

And have a good laugh.

I still think you're completely wrong. Paying "ransom" to rogue states who hold their citizens hostage is wrong. Supporting the economies of rogue states who's goal is to eliminate Israel and western culture is wrong. The fact that these rogue states will continue this agenda of futility at the expense of the health and well being of it's own citizens does not make us the bad guy here no matter how much you want to spin that top.

I love when old people say or imply that shit. If I'm so young, and my stuff is so easily refutable, then how come nobody ever does as much? Growing old on its own just means you've been on the Earth longer. That's it. If you can't parlay your years on the Earth and the observations you've made into wisdom, it is meaningless, and said situations have been demonstrated time and time again on these forums. My opinions and the way I see things are rooted in logic, ergo, there will be no need for me to wildly change them in 20 years.

The Israel shit is whatever, I'm tired of them and their state affecting our policy. It's a parasitic relationship.

Paying "ransom" to states that hold their civilians hostage is wrong, so let's starve them to death? How does that make sense?

[Captain Obvious]

I love when old people say or imply that shit. If I'm so young, and my stuff is so easily refutable, then how come nobody ever does as much? Growing old on its own just means you've been on the Earth longer. That's it. If you can't parlay your years on the Earth and the observations you've made into wisdom, it is meaningless, and said situations have been demonstrated time and time again on these forums. My opinions and the way I see things are rooted in logic, ergo, there will be no need for me to wildly change them in 20 years.

The Israel shit is whatever, I'm tired of them and their state affecting our policy. It's a parasitic relationship.

Paying "ransom" to states that hold their civilians hostage is wrong, so let's starve them to death? How does that make sense?

You're tired of hearing this too, but I was the same way you are. And I'm not that old, fuck you! And you're tired of hearing this too, but you'll get it at some point. There's a reason us fucking old people are telling you this, it's because it's true.

So we should go ahead and support an oppressive rogue theocracy who's agenda includes disruption and belligerence?

Make them stronger so that they can further this agenda?

Right. After they build a nuke and drop it on Israel and then the shit really hits the fan, dig that jar up and read your note.

[Alyosha]

Paying "ransom" to states that hold their civilians hostage is wrong, so let's starve them to death? How does that make sense?

Because we have arbitrarily decided which human life has more value than the next. It's like that tree in the woods adage, only I wonder with the antiabortion crowd that if an abortion happens to an Iranian baby does it count?

Either life matters or it does not.

[Alyosha]

Right. After they build a nuke and drop it on Israel and then the shit really hits the fan, dig that jar up and read your note.

Ah, therein lies the rub.

Maybe this should be Israel imposing sanctions then? Or, let's just declare them or us the vassal state and start sorting out the taxes right now.

[Captain Obvious]

Ah, therein lies the rub.

Maybe this should be Israel imposing sanctions then? Or, let's just declare them or us the vassal state and start sorting out the taxes right now.

What I'm really sensing here is an anti-Israel (vs. pro Iranian people) sentiment, which is fine but at least be honest about it.

[The Xl]

You're tired of hearing this too, but I was the same way you are. And I'm not that old, fuck you! And you're tired of hearing this too, but you'll get it at some point. There's a reason us fucking old people are telling you this, it's because it's true.

So we should go ahead and support an oppressive rogue theocracy who's agenda includes disruption and belligerence?

Make them stronger so that they can further this agenda?

Right. After they build a nuke and drop it on Israel and then the shit really hits the fan, dig that jar up and read your note.

A bunch of older people that say this shit to me are clearly less intelligent than me, and it's not a prop up of my own intelligence, more a knock on their stupidity, say as much because they have nothing of substance to say and need a talking point. Not saying that's you, just saying. Their are a lot of older people that devolve too, I've seen it. Not everyone gets better with age. Apathy, misdirection, mistaking social status for intelligence, etc, can all affect someone who is aging.

In any case.....I don't see Iran as a threat to America, so no, I don't care if we "support" it, especially when our way of "punishing" it is useless and only hurts those who have not wronged us.

As far as Iran and Israel go, Israel has been way more openly hostile with Iran.

[The Xl]

What I'm really sensing here is an anti-Israel (vs. pro Iranian people) sentiment, which is fine but at least be honest about it.

Your sensors are broken.

They're probably too old.

[Alyosha]

What I'm really sensing here is an anti-Israel (vs. pro Iranian people) sentiment, which is fine but at least be honest about it.

Not at all. I think both of those nations are crazy as fuck. Well, and the US, too after 911.

What I am opposed to is being the world police and being directed and guided in our actions by parties outside the citizenry of the United States. Put this up to a vote and most Americans would rather us spend that same LOE on fixing the economy or not picking winners and losers in the world.

[Captain Obvious]

Because we have arbitrarily decided which human life has more value than the next. It's like that tree in the woods adage, only I wonder with the antiabortion crowd that if an abortion happens to an Iranian baby does it count?

Either life matters or it does not.

So we should pay ransom to Somali pirates who threaten to kill hostages? Same for the al Quaida nuts, pay up or if they kill those hostages it's our fault?

If that's the case then it's our fault that brutal regimes in Africa are killing their people over sociopolitical unrest because we don't intervene.

This whole "we're the worlds policeman, we're the worlds security guard, we're the worlds beast of burden" shit gets a little old.

[Alyosha]

So we should pay ransom to Somali pirates who threaten to kill hostages? Same for the al Quaida nuts, pay up or if they kill those hostages it's our fault?

Kind of a poor analogy since we're not paying the Iranian government any money now. Our businesses do business with theirs. Not to be a bitch because, ya know, I like ya but that's a pretty piss poor analogy.




If that's the case then it's our fault that brutal regimes in Africa are killing their people over sociopolitical unrest because we don't intervene.


Apples to carrots. One is inhibiting American businesses from doing business with theirs which provides jobs to their people, and the other a military action.



This whole "we're the worlds policeman, we're the worlds security guard, we're the worlds beast of burden" shit gets a little old.

Yes, it really does get old. We should stop doing it.

[Ethereal]

So trade with Iran so that the elite and theocracy can fatten themselves and their engines of war while the people still starve and suffer.

Trade with Iran will actually weaken their regime. The more we expose Iranians and North Koreans to America culture, the more they'll want to live like us, and that includes their system of government. The sanctions against Iran and North Korea, far from hurting the ruling class, actually causes the people to rally behind them because they are facing an external threat. It's much easier to oppress people and to get them cooperating with your agenda if they feel that they are being attacked from without. Sanctions pretty much accomplish the exact opposite of what you're trying to do on virtually every front.

[Captain Obvious]

Trade with Iran will actually weaken their regime. The more we expose Iranians and North Koreans to America culture, the more they'll want to live like us, and that includes their system of government. The sanctions against Iran and North Korea, far from hurting the ruling class, actually causes the people to rally behind them because they are facing an external threat. It's much easier to oppress people and to get them cooperating with your agenda if they feel that they are being attacked from without. Sanctions pretty much accomplish the exact opposite of what you're trying to do on virtually every front.

Interesting point, but rejected nonetheless.

[Ethereal]

You two aren't implying that sanctions will cause great harm to people? As in suffering, starvation, death?

Or are you two just worried that there will be a shortage of Pokemon cards due to sanctions?

I'm not implying anything. I'm citing well know facts about the impact of economic sanctions. You can either accept them or remain in denial.

[Alyosha]

Interesting point, but rejected nonetheless.

Because dammit, that's the American way! Fuck reason, let's go with feel good! :D

[Captain Obvious]

Kind of a poor analogy since we're not paying the Iranian government any money now. Our businesses do business with theirs. Not to be a bitch because, ya know, I like ya but that's a pretty piss poor analogy.



Apples to carrots. One is inhibiting American businesses from doing business with theirs which provides jobs to their people, and the other a military action.



Yes, it really does get old. We should stop doing it.

Yes, it's an analogy, not meant to be synonymous.

Supporting/paying = doing business (or letting our businesses do business which generates wealth, tax revenues, etc.). Let's not get crazy with the terminology here, ok?

Supporting a rogue regime to grow, prosper and become a larger rogue regime isn't a good idea. If you think that's a good idea, cool. I don't.

Life sucks. If it's so bad over there then those people can move out, overthrow the regime or whatever. Why the fuck are we always the fulcrum for everything that ever happens and/or doesn't happen?

[The Xl]

Interesting point, but rejected nonetheless.

America, fuck yeah?

[The Xl]

Because dammit, that's the American way! Fuck reason, let's go with feel good! :D

The mark of someone who's accumulated wisdom over the years, for sure.

[Ethereal]

Interesting point, but rejected nonetheless.

It's interesting because it is true. Our culture is by far our greatest weapon. No one can resist the allure of liberty once they've caught a glimpse of her...

http://wirednewyork.com/images/city-guide/liberty/liberty.jpg

[Alyosha]

Yes, it's an analogy, not meant to be synonymous.

Supporting/paying = doing business (or letting our businesses do business which generates wealth, tax revenues, etc.). Let's not get crazy with the terminology here, ok?

Supporting a rogue regime to grow, prosper and become a larger rogue regime isn't a good idea. If you think that's a good idea, cool. I don't.

Life sucks. If it's so bad over there then those people can move out, overthrow the regime or whatever. Why the fuck are we always the fulcrum for everything that ever happens and/or doesn't happen?

Why punish American businesses and people here doing white collar support jobs? Why punish their citizens because they can't get a VISA out of town?

Break it down for me.

[Captain Obvious]

I'm not implying anything. I'm citing well know facts about the impact of economic sanctions. You can either accept them or...

... correct, reject them.

http://thebrianmo.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/rejected-2jp_20131028125527240.jpg

[nic34]

We've forced ourselves into a corner on this one with our military industrial complex.

"With great power, comes great responsibility".

and...

"To whom much has been given, much will be expected"

[Captain Obvious]

Why punish American businesses and people here doing white collar support jobs? Why punish their citizens because they can't get a VISA out of town?

Break it down for me.

Because the theocracy in Iran is a chaotic, unstable, belligerent state intent on causing mass disruption in the region.

We should be at war with them IMHO. We should have overthrown these guys instead of Saddam - I've said that since day one.

Make sense? Yes? No?

[Captain Obvious]

America, fuck yeah?

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-6RD3bcb46NU/Uqpy79lDXHI/AAAAAAAAAA8/eUoXvZkI23I/8-murica.jpg

[The Xl]

Because the theocracy in Iran is a chaotic, unstable, belligerent state intent on causing mass disruption in the region.

We should be at war with them IMHO. We should have overthrown these guys instead of Saddam - I've said that since day one.

Make sense? Yes? No?

Iran isn't our business and isn't a threat. This is some neocon warmongering shit.

[Ethereal]

Because the theocracy in Iran is a chaotic, unstable, belligerent state intent on causing mass disruption in the region.

We should be at war with them IMHO. We should have overthrown these guys instead of Saddam - I've said that since day one.

Make sense? Yes? No?

You're more than welcome to raise a private army and crusade on Iran. I won't stop you.

[Ethereal]

Eventually, the intelligence community will figure out that cultural subversion, by far, presents the best option for regime change. Handing out Hollywood movies will do more to undermine the Mullahs than starving the children of Iran ever could.

[Captain Obvious]

Iran isn't our business and isn't a threat. This is some neocon warmongering shit.

... yyyyyeahhhh, wrong.

The Iranian theocracy regime is pretty bad, even liberals found a way to figure it out.

Here - educate yourself a bit, grasshopper.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqTjm-TlHTQ

[The Xl]

... yyyyyeahhhh, wrong.

The Iranian theocracy regime is pretty bad, even liberals found a way to figure it out.

Here - educate yourself a bit, grasshopper.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqTjm-TlHTQ

Point me to the part where Iran is proven to be a threat to the United States.

Thanks.

[Captain Obvious]

Point me to the part where Iran is proven to be a threat to the United States.

Thanks.

That part you have to determine on your own. You clearly do not see Iran as a threat to anyone and I'm not sure how that's possible.

You being on the level you're claiming to be on that I'll never achieve.

[The Xl]

That part you have to determine on your own. You clearly do not see Iran as a threat to anyone and I'm not sure how that's possible.

You being on the level you're claiming to be on that I'll never achieve.

To America, they are not a threat, you can't and won't can't show how they are, this much is obvious, because you would have done so already if you could.

Israel and Iran can engage in their dick measuring contest all they want, it's unlikely neither of them will jump.

[Captain Obvious]

To America, they are not a threat, you can't and won't can't show how they are, this much is obvious, because you would have done so already if you could.

Israel and Iran can engage in their dick measuring contest all they want, it's unlikely neither of them will jump.

That whole fucking region is a ticking time bomb for us, you don't have a clue when our most vital energy resource is disrupted?

The fucking economy crashes, c'mon man - you're the self-proclaimed wisest person on the forum, you don't get this?

What if Iran builds a bomb - or worse, or gets close and Israel nukes them?

Think about it - if the Jews nuke an Arab state, what happens then?

Do you realize that Saudi Arabia is negotiating with Pakistan to purchase nuclear weapons now that Iran is pretty close to making one?

Dude... seriously, you're not as smart as you think you are. The sooner you realize that the faster you'll become smarter.

[The Xl]

That whole fucking region is a ticking time bomb for us, you don't have a clue when our most vital energy resource is disrupted?

The fucking economy crashes, c'mon man - you're the self-proclaimed wisest person on the forum, you don't get this?

What if Iran builds a bomb - or worse, or gets close and Israel nukes them?

Think about it - if the Jews nuke an Arab state, what happens then?

Do you realize that Saudi Arabia is negotiating with Pakistan to purchase nuclear weapons now that Iran is pretty close to making one?

Dude... seriously, you're not as smart as you think you are. The sooner you realize that the faster you'll become smarter.

Why doesn't Iran have the right to a nuke? I'd want one too with all the shit that comes from Israel and America.

And look at all your what ifs. What if this, what if that. It's all conjecture and extremely unlikely to happen.

Again, you should probably heed your own advice. Your gimmick is fine when you're right, but you come across as a supreme dumbass when you're not.

As far as our energy policy goes, we're not entitled to anyones resources, and we should probably be making a move to become energy independent.

[Captain Obvious]

Why doesn't Iran have the right to a nuke? I'd want one too with all the shit that comes from Israel and America.

And look at all your what ifs. What if this, what if that. It's all conjecture and extremely unlikely to happen.

Again, you should probably heed your own advice. Your gimmick is fine when you're right, but you come across as a supreme dumbass when you're not.

As far as our energy policy goes, we're not entitled to anyones resources, and we should probably be making a move to become energy independent.

I heeded my own advice a long time ago.

When I realized that I really didn't know everything and there was a whole lot of other shit to know and understand and that my point wasn't always right (but was most of the time tho), that's when I really started to understand things and I don't claim to understand a whole lot either.

But I do get more now than I ever got in life so far.

You have a long way to go.

[The Xl]

I heeded my own advice a long time ago.

When I realized that I really didn't know everything and there was a whole lot of other shit to know and understand and that my point wasn't always right (but was most of the time tho), that's when I really started to understand things and I don't claim to understand a whole lot either.

But I do get more now than I ever got in life so far.

You have a long way to go.

I don't claim to know everything, but I do find it quite funny that you have the nerve to levy that criticism on me, when that's the way you carry yourself on these forums.

I probably do have a long way to go, as we all do, but you're not in a position to accurately assess that.

[kilgram]

That whole fucking region is a ticking time bomb for us, you don't have a clue when our most vital energy resource is disrupted?

The fucking economy crashes, c'mon man - you're the self-proclaimed wisest person on the forum, you don't get this?

What if Iran builds a bomb - or worse, or gets close and Israel nukes them?

Think about it - if the Jews nuke an Arab state, what happens then?

Do you realize that Saudi Arabia is negotiating with Pakistan to purchase nuclear weapons now that Iran is pretty close to making one?

Dude... seriously, you're not as smart as you think you are. The sooner you realize that the faster you'll become smarter.
Well, I would be more worried about Saudi Arabia than Iran. If Saudi Arabia gets nuclear nukes, I don't want to imagine what they would be able to do with that, with all the connections with AQ that they have.

[Captain Obvious]

Well, I would be more worried about Saudi Arabia than Iran. If Saudi Arabia gets nuclear nukes, I don't want to imagine what they would be able to do with that, with all the connections with AQ that they have.

Nuclear nukes - lol!

Seriously? Saudi Arabia is only interested in nukes now that Iran is close to making one. If Iran wasn't in the process of developing one, Saudi Arabia would continue being happy not having one.

It's purely defensive, and pretty common sensical when you think about it. If you do.

[The Xl]

Nuclear nukes - lol!

Seriously? Saudi Arabia is only interested in nukes now that Iran is close to making one. If Iran wasn't in the process of developing one, Saudi Arabia would continue being happy not having one.

It's purely defensive, and pretty common sensical when you think about it. If you do.

Iran wanting nukes is most likely for defensive purposes, too. Surely you see this, no?

[Captain Obvious]

Iran wanting nukes is most likely for defensive purposes, too. Surely you see this, no?

Defensive?

Right - against who?

Who is attacking Iran right now? Who threatens Iran?

[Captain Obvious]

Iran wanting nukes is most likely for defensive purposes, too. Surely you see this, no?

Defensive?

Right - against who?

Who is attacking Iran right now? Who threatens Iran? Besides itself?

[The Xl]

Defensive?

Right - against who?

Who is attacking Iran right now? Who threatens Iran?

America and Israel have both threatened Iran, America has invaded other countries in the region, America is openly hostile with sanctions, etc.

[Captain Obvious]

America and Israel have both threatened Iran, America has invaded other countries, America is openly hostile with sanctions, etc.

So everyone gets nukes then?

Then why not North Korea, or Turkey or fuck it, why not Lebanon and Syria - we threaten them too.

Venezuela, yeah - they're on our hit list, better give them nukes, and Cuba.

[The Xl]

So everyone gets nukes then?

Then why not North Korea, or Turkey or fuck it, why not Lebanon and Syria - we threaten them too.

Venezuela, yeah - they're on our hit list, better give them nukes, and Cuba.

Only America, Israel, and European powers are allowed to have nukes? What gives us that right?

Iran has the right to self defense, as any country should.

[Captain Obvious]

Only America, Israel, and European powers are allowed to defend themselves with nukes? What gives us that right?

Iran has the right to self defense, as any country should.

So everyone gets them then?

Everyone has the right to defend itself, no?

Raul Castro will be so excited.

[The Xl]

So everyone gets them then?

Everyone has the right to defend itself, no?

Raul Castro will be so excited.

If they can acquire them, sure.

For all the shit you spout against right wing nut jobs, you seem to subscribe to some of their talking points. Not every country will risk getting blown the fuck up just for the chance to maybe strike us with nukes. North Korea with their crazy as fuck country and dictators haven't, and most likely, will never even seriously contemplate it.

Striking America is game over. Everyone knows it, it's a lose-lose proposition.

[Captain Obvious]

If they can acquire them, sure.

For all the shit you spout against right wing nut jobs, you seem to subscribe to some of their talking points. Not every country will risk getting blown the fuck up just for the chance to maybe strike us with nukes. North Korea with their crazy as fuck country and dictators haven't, and most likely, will never.

Sure, as do you.

But that doesn't include your bizarre logic of allowing every nation on the planet nuclear arms.

There is really nothing I can say at this point.

[The Xl]

Sure, as do you.

But that doesn't include your bizarre logic of allowing every nation on the planet nuclear arms.

There is really nothing I can say at this point.

It's not our place to "allow" or "disallow" what sovereign countries do for self defense purposes.

[Captain Obvious]

It's not our place to "allow" or "disallow" what sovereign countries do for self defense purposes.

You have kids?

[The Xl]

You have kids?

I do not.

[Captain Obvious]

I do not.

I didn't think so.

If you did you might understand that not everyone is equal, rational, responsible and able to make their own decisions.

Children need to be treated like children.

Same goes for countries.

Seriously... this really didn't need explained.

[MrJimmyDale]

It's not our place to "allow" or "disallow" what sovereign countries do for self defense purposes. But it sure is "good to be the King"........beats the alternative

[The Xl]

I didn't think so.

If you did you might understand that not everyone is equal, rational, responsible and able to make their own decisions.

Children need to be treated like children.

Same goes for countries.

Seriously... this really didn't need explained.

I figured some irrelevant metaphor was coming. I wasn't disappointed.

[The Xl]

But it sure is "good to be the King"........beats the alternative

It's not as black and white as you assert. It's not like our military prowess is going away, we'd still be "king" of the world.

[Captain Obvious]

I figured some irrelevant metaphor was coming. I wasn't disappointed.

I figured you wouldn't understand it and yeah, not surprised.

You'll get it in time, once you ride the bike around the block a few times.

[The Xl]

I figured you wouldn't understand it and yeah, not surprised.

You'll get it in time, once you ride the bike around the block a few times.

I get where you were going, it just doesn't hold water, especially when you consider who the "parents" in that metaphor would be.

Here's the thing you don't understand, brother. I got on the bike and got around the block a few times already. You got a big head start, yet you still keep falling down.

Fix yourself before you offer advice to anyone else.

[Captain Obvious]

I get where you were going, it just doesn't hold water, especially when you consider who the "parents" in that metaphor would be.

Here's the thing you don't understand, brother. I got on the bike and got around the block a few times already. You got a big head start, yet you still keep falling down.

Fix yourself before you offer advice to anyone else.

Yesterday I was a cool cat. Funny how that changes overnight.

But one so wise and experienced as you would know that.

When you said that every country should have a nuke, your credibility was ruined, there's really no point in going further from here. Going to take a lot to build back up from that.

[The Xl]

Yesterday I was a cool cat. Funny how that changes overnight.

But one so wise and experienced as you would know that.

When you said that every country should have a nuke, your credibility was ruined, there's really no point in going further from here. Going to take a lot to build back up from that.
Just like you've always been cool with me and repped a bunch of my shit, now all you have are baseless insults. Funny how that works.

You asserting my credibility is ruined is just that, your assertion. It means shit. Likewise, I assert whatever credibility you had is shot now, due to you showing that you're nothing more than a glorified Neocon. Neither of us gives a fuck either way, and nothing changes, either way.

Fantastic.

[Captain Obvious]

Just like you've always been cool with me and repped a bunch of my shit, now all you have are baseless insults. Funny how that works.

You asserting my credibility is ruined is just that, your assertion. It means shit. Likewise, I assert whatever credibility you had is shot now, due to you showing that you're nothing more than a glorified Neocon. Neither of us gives a fuck either way, and nothing changes, either way.

Fantastic.

To be honest, you really push the whole "I'm smarter than everyone older than me" thing. You don't come out and say that exactly but that's what you imply, so much that I almost have to wince reading your stuff so yeah, I tend to get a little obnoxious around people with extreme personality ticks and pour it on a little.

I'm being sincere, I only hope you recognize this. It kinda sucks when you realize you didn't get it for years but it suddenly dawns on you later on in life when you realize it.

[Green Arrow]

Still no logical arguments against the OP. Boooooooring.

[Captain Obvious]

Still no logical arguments against the OP. Boooooooring.

ie: none that you agree with.

[Green Arrow]

ie: none that you agree with.

I'm not like that. I've been confronted with many logical arguments that I disagreed with. I already thanked zelmo in this thread for actually trying to debate the issue, even though I disagree with his arguments.

[texan]

Whats the OP too many pages to look through. I will be your logical responder.....

[Green Arrow]

Whats the OP too many pages to look through. I will be your logical responder.....

This is the OP:


https://www.govtrack.us/congress/bills/113/s1881/text

In an attempt to derail the recent diplomatic overtures of the Obama administration in regards to Iran, the Israeli lobby whores in the Senate have taken it upon themselves to reimpose sanctions, which are a form of economic murder, on the people of Iran. As was the case with the sanctions on Iraq, this form of economic deprivation and denial is as insane as it is diabolical, with its effects felt almost entirely by the weakest and most vulnerable members of that society, namely, children, infirm, and elderly, while doing almost nothing to materially impact the position of the ruling class.


The following is a list of the criminals who are trying to perpetrate this murder against the weakest members of Iranian society:


Mr. Menendez (for himself, Mr. Kirk, Mr. Schumer, Mr. Graham, Mr. Cardin, Mr. McCain,Mr. Casey, Mr. Rubio, Mr. Coons, Mr. Cornyn, Mr. Blumenthal, Ms. Ayotte, Mr. Begich,Mr. Corker, Mr. Pryor, Ms. Collins, Ms. Landrieu, Mr. Moran, Mrs. Gillibrand, Mr. Roberts, Mr. Warner, Mr. Johanns, Mrs. Hagan, Mr. Cruz, Mr. Donnelly, Mr. Blunt, Mr. Booker, Ms. Murkowski, Mr. Manchin, Mr. Coats, Mr. Vitter, Mr. Risch, Mr. Isakson, and Mr. Boozman


Villains, every last one.

[The Xl]

To be honest, you really push the whole "I'm smarter than everyone older than me" thing. You don't come out and say that exactly but that's what you imply, so much that I almost have to wince reading your stuff so yeah, I tend to get a little obnoxious around people with extreme personality ticks and pour it on a little.

I'm being sincere, I only hope you recognize this. It kinda sucks when you realize you didn't get it for years but it suddenly dawns on you later on in life when you realize it.
I only give that vibe and push that when people try and discredit me by citing my age first. Don't start it, and you won't get that.

If goes without saying that I get annoyed when older folk do the same to me, Green Arrow, Chloe, etc.

As far as your own experiences go, they're just that, your experiences.

[donttread]

My ideas on this are much to complicated for this early in the morning.



Let em build what they're going to build. The only country sinister enough to ever use an atomic bomb was ..... us. And then we appoint ourselves to choose who should and should not have them.? Why do you think the US and Russia never waged direct war upon each other ? Because both had the bomb. Leaders are egocentric people who are self preservationist and would use a weapon that means destruction to them. You don't see Bush or Obama on the front lines or a vest strapped to OBL's chest do you?

[pjohns]

Capitulation to what?

Capitulation to Iran's preferred terms. (Or, as Iran's President Hassan Rouhani recently phrased it, this agreement represents the West's "surrender" to Iran's "national will." (No doubt, apologists for the current administration will describe this as mere rhetoric intended for domestic consumption. In fact, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney--surprise, surprise!--has already done precisely that.)


Yes, let's take our foreign policy ques from a dictator.

More to the point, let us do whatever makes real sense; and debate the merits of each proposal, rather than the matter of who set forth that proposal.

As the old axiom goes, no idea may be considered responsible for who held it...

[Ethereal]

Capitulation to Iran's preferred terms. (Or, as Iran's President Hassan Rouhani recently phrased it, this agreement represents the West's "surrender" to Iran's "national will." (No doubt, apologists for the current administration will describe this as mere rhetoric intended for domestic consumption. In fact, White House Press Secretary Jay Carney--surprise, surprise!--has already done precisely that.

Iran is a sovereign nation. Their people have the right to political self-determination. It is the height of hypocrisy for Americans like you to presume to dictate terms to Iran when the American federal government and the Israeli national government have nuclear weapons enough to destroy the entire planet. The American federal government is the only entity in history to have used nuclear weapons in an attack on civilian populations, yet, somehow, they presume to tell a sovereign people that they have no right to pursue such technology for themselves. This is the exact same kind of paternalistic instinct that drove the British to dictate terms to Americans.


More to the point, let us do whatever makes real sense; and debate the merits of each proposal, rather than the matter of who set forth that proposal.

As the old axiom goes, no idea may be considered responsible for who held it...

And what is wrong with free trade and diplomacy? Do you think the people of America and the people of Iran are natural enemies or something?

[Ethereal]

Actually, Ethereal, the Israelis don't need to apologize for sinking the USS Liberty, because, they did it for the USA.

Yes, they do need to apologize, because they murdered, injured, and psychologically traumatized hundreds of American service members. If LBJ ordered them to do it (which I believe he did), then they need to expose that traitor for the criminal that he is. The only way to make up for what they did is to come clean to the victims and their families.


President Johnson, MacNamara and the US military establishment wanted that ship sunk.

Does not excuse cold-blooded murder.


You can't blame the Israelis when the US President & the Defense Department were 100% in favor of sinking the USS Liberty.

I most certainly can blame them, they're the ones who pulled the trigger.

[Ivan88]

Wouldn't it be interesting if some one blockaded America and cut off our supplies.
I'm sure that the blockaders would be innocent of any harm caused thereby, because that is official US policy:
It's just like the USA Secretary of State said, "...we think the price is worth it" to starve 500,000 + Iraqi people to death.
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