The Green Tea Party

[Heyduke]

I like to say I’m a card carrying member of the Green Tea Party. Such a party does not exist, which proves that I’m delusional.

Somewhere in a parallel universe, Dr. Jill Stein (Green Party) was elected president in 2012, along with a libertarian Congress. They are at a stalemate on most issues (fine by me), but there are many things that they agree upon. Here is part of her website platform that I like, but may or may not be workable with her libertarian Congress.

~Renegotiate NAFTA and other "free trade'' agreements that export American jobs, depress wages, and undermine the sovereign right of Americans and citizens of other countries to control their own economies.

End bailouts for the financial elite.

Bring monetary policy under democratic control by prohibiting private banks from creating money, thus restoring government's Constitutional authority.

Restore the Glass-Steagall separation of depository commercial banks from speculative investment banks.

Issue an Executive Order prohibiting Federal agencies from conspiring with local police to infringe upon right of assembly and peaceful protest.

Repeal the Patriot Act that violates our constitutional right to privacy and protection against unreasonable search and seizure.

Repeal the unconstitutional provisions of the National Defense Authorization Act that gives the president the power to indefinitely imprison and even assassinate American citizens without due process.

Oppose the Online Piracy Act and all other legislation that would undermine freedom and equality on the Internet.

Eliminate the doctrine of corporate personhood with a constitutional amendment to clarify that only human beings have constitutional rights.

Abolish the electoral college and directly elect the President.
~End the ineffective and costly War on Drugs and begin to treat drug use as a public health problem, not a criminal problem.

Cut the bloated Pentagon budget by 50%.

End use of assassination as an instrument of U.S. foreign policy, including collaborative assassination through intermediaries

Ban use of drone aircraft for assassination, bombing, and other offensive purposes.

[donttread]

A coalition government would be great

[Blackrook]

Corporations are legal persons. That's the most basic concept of corporations law, known to any first year law student.

If corporations do not have Constitutional rights, then the government can shut down any newspaper that is run by a corporation.

[donttread]

Corporations are legal persons. That's the most basic concept of corporations law, known to any first year law student.

If corporations do not have Constitutional rights, then the government can shut down any newspaper that is run by a corporation.

Corporate personhood started with a mis reported USSC decision. The megacorps must die for freedom to live

[Green Arrow]

Corporations are legal persons. That's the most basic concept of corporations law, known to any first year law student.

If corporations do not have Constitutional rights, then the government can shut down any newspaper that is run by a corporation.

And? Newspapers shouldn't be run by corporations anyway.

[Heyduke]

Corporations are legal persons. That's the most basic concept of corporations law, known to any first year law student.

If corporations do not have Constitutional rights, then the government can shut down any newspaper that is run by a corporation.

~somewhere is a parallel universe, circa 2014~

Though president Stein disagrees with you, Blackrock, she has had trouble gaining traction on her corporate personhood initiative. A sizeable caucus within the libertarian Congress opposes her, along with the Roberts Supreme Court.

[Chris]

Well thought out, heyduke, but I'd like to take issue with "Abolish the electoral college and directly elect the President."

The government was set up as a sort of balance mix of state and popular power. That balance was already upset by the Seventeen Amendment. Throwing out the electoral college would throw it further out of balance.

[kilgram]

Corporations are legal persons. That's the most basic concept of corporations law, known to any first year law student.

If corporations do not have Constitutional rights, then the government can shut down any newspaper that is run by a corporation.
It is the first step of the corpocracy. A world dominated by corporations.

[Mister D]

It is the first step of the corpocracy. A world dominated by corporations.

Thank you for getting the term correct. Corporatism is constantly misused.

[Green Arrow]

Well thought out, heyduke, but I'd like to take issue with "Abolish the electoral college and directly elect the President."

The government was set up as a sort of balance mix of state and popular power. That balance was already upset by the Seventeen Amendment. Throwing out the electoral college would throw it further out of balance.

The Electoral College doesn't work. It makes people feel like their vote doesn't count (because, if you think about it, it really doesn't). That's how you get only 40-60% of our nation's eligible voters actually voting. It also ensures that Democrats and Republicans will be the only people elected President for the foreseeable future.

We tried it for over two hundred years. It doesn't work. Time to move on.

[Chris]

The Electoral College doesn't work. It makes people feel like their vote doesn't count (because, if you think about it, it really doesn't). That's how you get only 40-60% of our nation's eligible voters actually voting. It also ensures that Democrats and Republicans will be the only people elected President for the foreseeable future.

We tried it for over two hundred years. It doesn't work. Time to move on.


Your vote doesn't count because either way it's but one of millions.

[kilgram]

Your vote doesn't count because either way it's but one of millions.
And you have to add things like gerrymanderism :)

And if I am not wrong in USA about a 50% of the possible voters vote, and even less.

[Green Arrow]

Your vote doesn't count because either way it's but one of millions.

Except that's not true, because in a popular vote system there's actually a chance that my candidate can get elected. That is not the case with the Electoral College system. Under the Electoral College system, my vote is meaningless. I live in Tennessee, a Republican will always be elected under the EC.

[Chris]

And you have to add things like gerrymanderism :)

And if I am not wrong in USA about a 50% of the possible voters vote, and even less.


Yes, there's gerrymandering by both parties.

Yes, about 50% vote.

[Chris]

Except that's not true, because in a popular vote system there's actually a chance that my candidate can get elected. That is not the case with the Electoral College system. Under the Electoral College system, my vote is meaningless. I live in Tennessee, a Republican will always be elected under the EC.



Then you need to get your state legislature to change the way they do things. Some states the popular vote is binding on the EC. Not here, I think one time one EC voted libertarian.

[Green Arrow]

Then you need to get your state legislature to change the way they do things. Some states the popular vote is binding on the EC. Not here, I think one time one EC voted libertarian.

There's no way to structure the EC to fix the problem. You'll still end up with only Democrats and Republicans elected President, unless you change it so EC votes are awarded proportionately to ALL candidates. But even then, there are still problems to solve.

It's far simpler to just throw it out. We've had over two hundred years to tweak it and make it work, and it's still broken. Enough is enough.

[Chris]

There's no way to structure the EC to fix the problem. You'll still end up with only Democrats and Republicans elected President, unless you change it so EC votes are awarded proportionately to ALL candidates. But even then, there are still problems to solve.

It's far simpler to just throw it out. We've had over two hundred years to tweak it and make it work, and it's still broken. Enough is enough.


According to the Constitution it's up to the states how to structure it.

Throwing it out is one more stake in the heart of federalism. A move in the wrong direction.

[Green Arrow]

According to the Constitution it's up to the states how to structure it.

Throwing it out is one more stake in the heart of federalism. A move in the wrong direction.

The constitution isn't worth the parchment it's written on. Read Spooner. We should change the EC because it's the right thing to do, constitution be damned.

[Chris]

The constitution isn't worth the parchment it's written on. Read Spooner. We should change the EC because it's the right thing to do, constitution be damned.

Which direction is anarchy and which statism? Anarchy moves toward local over central authority.

[Green Arrow]

Which direction is anarchy and which statism? Anarchy moves toward local over central authority.

Not sure what you mean by direction, but I would argue the EC is more toward statism and the popular vote more toward anarchy.

[iustitia]

The United States is a federation, a union of sovereign states. This is the reason we have both an electoral college and why had the Senate appointed by state legislatures. What I believe Chris means is that abolishing the EC is a move away from state sovereignty or federalism and towards a nationalist or unitary state.

[Chris]

Not sure what you mean by direction, but I would argue the EC is more toward statism and the popular vote more toward anarchy.

Just the opposite. The EC puts control at the state level, and some few even at the voting district level. Elimination of it for popular vote put control at the federal level.

[Chris]

The United States is a federation, a union of sovereign states. This is the reason we have both an electoral college and why had the Senate appointed by state legislatures. What I believe Chris means is that abolishing the EC is a move away from state sovereignty or federalism and towards a nationalist or unitary state.

Exactly.

[Green Arrow]

Just the opposite. The EC puts control at the state level, and some few even at the voting district level. Elimination of it for popular vote put control at the federal level.

And yet the states don't actually control the EC. They just decide how their delegates are apportioned. The federal government still controls everything else, and for good reason. It strengthens their power because it allows the two main parties to maintain a hold.

[donttread]

The United States is a federation, a union of sovereign states. This is the reason we have both an electoral college and why had the Senate appointed by state legislatures. What I believe Chris means is that abolishing the EC is a move away from state sovereignty or federalism and towards a nationalist or unitary state.

Unfortunetly, that ship has been sailing since 1913

[Chris]

And yet the states don't actually control the EC. They just decide how their delegates are apportioned. The federal government still controls everything else, and for good reason. It strengthens their power because it allows the two main parties to maintain a hold.

They decide who their delegates are and how their apportioned as set out in the Constitution. That gives states power, not the federal government.

The present duopoly is another matter.

[Chris]

Unfortunetly, that ship has been sailing since 1913

And dismantling the electoral college will just raise another mainsail.

[Heyduke]

To answer your question, I did vote in California in 2012, and I did vote for Dr. Jill Stein. My vote didn't count for anything, because Barry was a lock to take every delegate. Had Stein actually been a viable candidate, I might have thought otherwise, since there's a gigantic chunk of the Green platform that just isn't my bag. But, I wasn't going to vote for Obama or Romney.

Why do I support a popular vote for a national candidate? Selfish reasons. I just don't feel like my vote for president counts for anything, at least not lately. The Greens and Ralph Nadar, for better or worse, did help Bush 'win' Florida in 2000, along with Pat Buchanan who beat Gore in liberal Palm Beach because of the "butterfly ballot".

[Heyduke]

Here's the question. In my parallel universe, with President Jill Stein, and Senate majority leader Rand Paul, and House speaker Ron Paul, and a bunch of grassroots Tea Partiers making up the bulk of Congress, and the Roberts Court, would the fundamental structure of national elections be changed?

If you assume that Congress is strongly adherent to the Constitution, I don't think President Stein gets her wish.

[Chris]

Here's the question. In my parallel universe, with President Jill Stein, and Senate majority leader Rand Paul, and House speaker Ron Paul, and a bunch of grassroots Tea Partiers making up the bulk of Congress, and the Roberts Court, would the fundamental structure of national elections be changed?

If you assume that Congress is strongly adherent to the Constitution, I don't think President Stein gets her wish.


Under those conditions I think, if Stein didn't veto, growth in government would reverse some but it would anger the general public who feeds of its largess and we'd be right back where we are in a term or two.

[Captain Obvious]

All of these conservative oriented "parties" are dividing the conservative base.

Not sure this is the right approach when Democrats are buying votes from illegal aliens.

[Chris]

I don't think either party establishment is interested in limiting government so I'm all for divide and conquer.

The GOP just announce their own vote-buying plan to legalize more immigrant.

[Heyduke]

"The multiverse (or meta-universe) is the hypothetical (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Hypothetical) set of infinite or finite possible universes (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Universe) (including the historical universe we consistently experience) that together comprise everything that exists and can exist." -wiki

In my hypothetical iteration of possibility, I think the banks get humbled, the Patriot Act gets scrapped, civil liberties get free reign, the military budget gets slashed, etc..

Communities are allowed to provide local solutions to local problems. But, in my hypothetical iteration, the economy takes a nose dive, due to the elimination of artificial stimulus. The US, in response, decouples from the global economy, in an effort to create jobs at home. Stein convinces Congress to press ahead with a Pat Buchanan-like protectionist platform.

Back in our world, I think we're inevitably going to have to begin to decouple from the global economy. 20 years ago, a currency crisis in Turkey wouldn't have effected our economy much at all. Today, we're effected by every contagion.

[Heyduke]

18 environmental organizations signed a joint letter yesterday criticizing Obama's lack of environmental progress. Of course, they focused on the carbon issue entirely, which was lame.

Jill Stein would want to "Phase out nuclear power and end nuclear subsidies." Indeed, you could end nuclear power tomorrow by ending subsidies and government insurance. So, I think that she would end nuclear power in my parrallel universe, since a libertarian Congress would oppose subsidies to anyone.

Stein says she would like to "Provide grants and low-interest loans to green businesses and cooperatives, with an emphasis on small, locally-based companies that keep the wealth created by local labor circulating in the community, rather than being drained off to enrich absentee investors."

She'd have a harder time getting anywhere with that. Solyndra really screwed the prospect of greater public investment in solar. I realize that absolute power corrupts absolutely, but no self-respecting communist would build a Solyndra with a $4 million marble floor, personal robots for employees, fine art on the walls, and massive management bonuses. If Solyndra were run by real communists, the floors and walls would have been rough cement, and the employees would have worked long hours in drab commy clothing for little more than bread and water. And, we'd have a lot of cheap solar panels as a result.

[kilgram]

All of these conservative oriented "parties" are dividing the conservative base.

Not sure this is the right approach when Democrats are buying votes from illegal aliens.
If they are illegal aliens, they cannot vote.

[Chris]

If they are illegal aliens, they cannot vote.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m0uedSCARlc#t=234

[donttread]

All of these conservative oriented "parties" are dividing the conservative base.

Not sure this is the right approach when Democrats are buying votes from illegal aliens.

I don't consider the mainstream republicans to be remotely fiscally conservative nor do I see them as much different from the democrats

[Chloe]

I really liked Jill Stein. That's who I voted for as well.

[The Xl]

Any conservative/libertarian should have voted for Johnson, any real liberal should have voted for Stein.

We'd be a lot better off if those two were nominated, as opposed to the corporatist candidate Obamney