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Germanicus
02-09-2014, 04:11 PM
It is interesting that in American culture the Irish are assosiated with strength and not weakness or stupidity. A good example is the 'Boston Strong' meme. It is also interesting that the USA brand borrows from this meme and we now see 'American Strong' memes popping up. To me as a modern Anglo-Norman and as an Australian I see the Anglo-Irish as a weak people with a weak history. It is absurd to me that the Anglo-Irish consider themseves to have a strong culture.


The story of the invasion of England in 1066, by William the Conquerer is graphically told in the Tapestry of Bayeux. Just over a century later (1169), the descendants of the soldiers from Normandy who marched with William, made their first landfall on the neighbouring island of Ireland. They also had conquest on their minds. Their story is told in a long narrative called “The Song of Dermot and the Earl” written in French by an unknown author. (It complements another version written by a cleric called Giraldus Cambrensis (Gerald of Wales), who accompanied King Henry II in 1171 during the first ever visit of a foreign monarch to Ireland). The Song was translated into English and published by Goddard Henry Orpen in 1899; and is the definitive record of the Norman invasion and conquest of Irish territory in the second half of the 12th century.
http://englishhistoryauthors.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/the-song-of-dermot-and-earl.html

The Anglo-Norman conquered the Anglo-Irish. With ease. The Song of Dermott and the Earl tell of between 3000 and 4000 being defeated by no more than 100 English.


The two heroes of the ‘Song of Dermot and the Earl’ and Dermot MacMurrough (the ‘rich king’ of Leinster); and Richard deClare (Earl of Pembroke); nicknamed “Strongbow”.


Dermot MacMurrough is the man blamed for inviting the first Norman invaders to Ireland to help him win back the kingdom of Leinster, from which he had recently been expelled by the Irish Ard-Rí (High King) Rory O’Connor and his ally Tiernan O’Rourke. The Song is sympathetic to Dermot as indicated by reference to him:


“About King Dermot I will tell you; In Ireland, at this day,
There was no more worthy king: 
Very rich and powerful he was;
He loved the generous, he hated the mean”.


The native Irish perspective:
By contrast, the Gaelic Irish view of Dermot is not at all flattering as described in the Annals of the Four Masters, written during the 16th century.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wnxYkuHR_0Q/UWH-oWz3_WI/AAAAAAAAAH8/kMgkILKDNmU/s320/dermot.jpg (http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-wnxYkuHR_0Q/UWH-oWz3_WI/AAAAAAAAAH8/kMgkILKDNmU/s1600/dermot.jpg)

"Diarmaid MacMurchadha, King of Leinster, by whom a trembly sod was made of all Ireland. After having brought over the Saxons, after having done extensive injuries to the Irish. After plundering and burning many churches, as Ceanannus (Kells), Cluain Iraird (Clonard), died of an insufferable and unknown disease; for he became putrid while living, through the miracle of God, Columcille and Finian, and the other saints of Ireland, whose churches he had profaned and burned some time before;


And he died at Fearnamor [Ferns], without making a will, without penance, without the body of Christ, without unction, as his evil deeds deserved."


These surely are not the most Christian sentiments as articulated by the monk scribes.


The Annals of Tigernach further describes Dermot as
“the disturber and the destroyer of Banba” (Banba is an old name for Ireland)
http://englishhistoryauthors.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/the-song-of-dermot-and-earl.html

A trembly sod was made of all of Ireland. (: The disturber and destroyer of Ireland.

Shouldnt the meme be - Boston Weak? The Song of Dermot also tells of how the defeated Irish were given a mass execution by the Norman Invaders. The mass execution was to display Norman ferocity and to terrorize the weak and discomforted Irish.


The Geneva convention for prisoners did not apply as far as the “noble knights” or their ladies {wenches} were concerned!)

“Of the Irish there were taken, quite as many as seventy.

But the noble knights had them beheaded.
To a wench they gave an axe of tempered steel,

And she beheaded them all and threw their bodies over the cliff,

http://englishhistoryauthors.blogspot.com.au/2013/04/the-song-of-dermot-and-earl.html


The knights did this.
And the Irish of the district
1490] Were discomfited in this way.
To their country they returned
Outdone and discomfited:
To their country they returned
Discomfited and outdone.
http://www.ucc.ie/celt/published/T250001-001/text002.html

The Irish are conquered people. They always have been. I do not think of them as being strong. The Anglo-Irish are weak people with a weak culture in my opinion. Compared to a Norman anyway.

I have a very good book called By Sword and Fire that was written by Sean McGlynn. The book talks about the moral and military dilemma that the Norman conquerors faced between mercy and ruthlessness, betwen the dictates of humanity and the expediencies of war.

Should a vanquished opponent be considered a non-combatant?

Gerald of Wales's account of the Norman invasion- The Conquest of Ireland includes a debate between Raymond and Hervey on the dilemma between mercy and ruthlessness.

Raymond is saying that these defeated Irish are honourable men because they have tried to defend their country.Raymond ays 'they are not theives, seditious, traitors or robbers'. He says ' they have been defeated by us while defended their country', which is 'assuredly an honourable vocation. He argues that the Irish are fellow 'human beings' that should be shown mercy and says that to inflict cruelty, torture and death upon them would 'bring infamy and shame upon us, and would considerably damage our reputations'. Raymond also says that it would be more sensible and noble to ransom the vanquished. He then agues that if the Normans show mercy to Irish captives then perhaps the Irish will show mercy to Normans that might fall into the hands of the Irish.

Hervey mocks Raymonds stance- 'as if any foreign country has been conqured by acts of mercy rather than by fire and slaughter!' Hervey argues that enemy races do not submit to clemency but ' rather nowed their necks in submission under the compulsion of armed might and terror bred of cruel treatment. While peoples are still proud and rebelious they must be subdued by all possible means and clemency must take a backseat'. Hervey accuses Raymond of having 'criminal compassion' and bent on 'increasing the number of enemies'. Hervey says how undafe it is to keep large numbers of captives and concludes that ruthlessness is needed to put fear in the hearts of the Irish saying prisoners must be executed so 'that the deaths of these men may inspire fear in others, and as a result of the example we make of them this lawless and rebelious people may shrink from engaging our forces in the future'.
http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/conquest_ireland.pdf

Hervey won and the Norman executions of the discomforted Irish put terror into the Irish population. The Normans decided on ruthlessness over mercy for the weak Anglo-Irish.

Normans do conquer but we have always allowed the vanquished to retain their own culture. Normans often embraced the culture of the nations that we conquered. Many Normans became more Irish than the Irish. I am more Australian than Australians. (: Normans are a romantic people.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norman_invasion_of_Ireland

The Norman invasion of Ireland helped the nation to mature and form its own identity. The no mercy style of the Norman invasion of Ireland made the Irish trembly.

Do you agree that Anglo-Irish culture is weak and inferior to Anglo-Norman history and culture? Norman-Strong? Boston-Weak? (:

What is your stance on mercy vs ruthlessness? Do you have criminal compassion too? How should the defeated enemy race be treated


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L7FuA8Rry8


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KjeWAnnohd4

Does ruthlessness encourage ruthfullness in the conquered? In the short term maybe. But they will get over it. It is best to show the vanquished no mercy at first. Right?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oTpw5XMnJig

# the title should be Ruthlessness vs Mercy.

whoops.

Anyway, the Irish are soft right? Like to an American they might be hard. (: Not to an Aussie or a Norman though.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqsOPJevSyo

Not only are they weak. But also stupid. Havent you guys heard all those Irish jokes? Are the Irish stupid to Americans? Or just to Normans, Aussies and pommies?