View Full Version : Guess who gets the money?
Mainecoons
02-15-2014, 03:49 PM
While our usually ill informed leftists here love to rant about the Kochs, the reality is a great deal difference.
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php
My, my, the Kochs are a lowly #59. And look at all those donkeys in the top 20. There's not even an elephant in sight until #17, tch, tch.
Six of the top ten are unions and they basically gave it all to. . . guess who? (See what I'm trying to explain to you, Green Arrow?)
Collectively, these unions took, what, nearly a half billion bucks of their members money and gave almost all of it to Democrats.
You liberals keep that in mind when you start your whine about political contributions, OK?
patrickt
02-15-2014, 03:53 PM
I hope you don't think they'll quit whining as long as even $1 goes to conservatives.
While our usually ill informed leftists here love to rant about the Kochs, the reality is a great deal difference.
http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/list.php
My, my, the Kochs are a lowly #59. And look at all those donkeys in the top 20. There's not even an elephant in sight until #17, tch, tch.
Six of the top ten are unions and they basically gave it all to. . . guess who? (See what I'm trying to explain to you, Green Arrow?)
Collectively, these unions took, what, nearly a half billion bucks of their members money and gave almost all of it to Democrats.
You liberals keep that in mind when you start your whine about political contributions, OK?
Unfortunately, OpenSecrets tells a very incomplete story. But yes, it is true that cronyism is just as prevalent on the left as it is on the right.
bladimz
02-15-2014, 04:18 PM
Interesting info. Note that almost all of the money donated to the Elephants is from financial/white-collar institutions and the larger retail corporations, which sets the Republicans' agenda. Money donated to the Donkeys comes from unions representing working americans along with other middle-class related institutions. This sets their opposing agenda. (Bitch all you want about unions, but only 11% of american workers are union members. The lowest percentage ever in American history.) So is it any wonder that the Elephants then represent the interests of Wallstreet, while the Donkeys represent that of Mainstreet?
It's just a battle of big money vs the middle class, fought by proxy.
Peter1469
02-15-2014, 04:21 PM
Except the Unions don't really represent their workers.....
bladimz
02-15-2014, 04:21 PM
Unfortunately, OpenSecrets tells a very incomplete story. But yes, it is true that cronyism is just as prevalent on the left as it is on the right.Although they can be interesting, charts rarely present a clear and honest picture. They are as trustworthy as any article written with bias. Which is most all of them.
GrassrootsConservative
02-15-2014, 04:30 PM
And if you took away the disgusting big-government and over-spending mindset then the lack of government control would make this a non-issue.
Liberalism is the problem here, not elephants or donkeys.
bladimz
02-15-2014, 04:33 PM
Except the Unions don't really represent their workers.....Well they certainly don't represent Wall Street.
Knock unions as much as you want. They wouldn't exist if they weren't necessary, the very fact that membership in unions has dropped to 11% says that as safety and other worker-friendly regulations are put in place, unions lose their necessity. Any union that wouldn't work in the interests of their membership wouldn't last too long. Some push the opposition too hard which can possibly hurt their members in the end, but this is the exception rather than the rule.
patrickt
02-15-2014, 04:37 PM
Interesting info. Note that almost all of the money donated to the Elephants is from financial/white-collar institutions and the larger retail corporations, which sets the Republicans' agenda. Money donated to the Donkeys comes from unions representing working americans along with other middle-class related institutions. This sets their opposing agenda. (Bitch all you want about unions, but only 11% of american workers are union members. The lowest percentage ever in American history.) So is it any wonder that the Elephants then represent the interests of Wallstreet, while the Donkeys represent that of Mainstreet?
It's just a battle of big money vs the middle class, fought by proxy.
Another humorous post from Nic. Unions kill workers. Unions destroy jobs. Unions are extortionists.
bladimz
02-15-2014, 04:38 PM
And if you took away the disgusting big-government and over-spending mindset then the lack of government control would make this a non-issue.
Liberalism is the problem here, not elephants or donkeys.No. Money in Politics is the real issue. Liberalism vs Conservatism is just a game that's played for the benefit of the American citizenry. A deflection served up by the Man Behind the Curtain: "Look at these two parties duking it out!" while the big-dollar players buy up more and more of our nation and it's interests.
bladimz
02-15-2014, 04:40 PM
Another humorous post from Nic. Unions kill workers. Unions destroy jobs. Unions are extortionists.Don't bust on Nic. This is my post.
You present three opinions. I can't decide which one is the most ridiculous. Wait... i think it's a tie.
GrassrootsConservative
02-15-2014, 04:46 PM
No. Money in Politics is the real issue. Liberalism vs Conservatism is just a game that's played for the benefit of the American citizenry. A deflection served up by the Man Behind the Curtain: "Look at these two parties duking it out!" while the big-dollar players buy up more and more of our nation and it's interests.
Can you debate my point?
How would government get to do this crony capitalist trash if they didn't have the power to do so?
Peter1469
02-15-2014, 04:52 PM
Well they certainly don't represent Wall Street.
Knock unions as much as you want. They wouldn't exist if they weren't necessary, the very fact that membership in unions has dropped to 11% says that as safety and other worker-friendly regulations are put in place, unions lose their necessity. Any union that wouldn't work in the interests of their membership wouldn't last too long. Some push the opposition too hard which can possibly hurt their members in the end, but this is the exception rather than the rule.
Yes, they don't represent Wall Street.
They basically money launder for the DNC.
GrassrootsConservative
02-15-2014, 04:57 PM
Yes, they don't represent Wall Street.
They basically money launder for the DNC.
And Right-To-Work is trying to put a stop to it.
Another reason why Liberals can't put up with RTW. It gives their people less money.
bladimz
02-15-2014, 04:58 PM
Can you debate my point?
How would government get to do this crony capitalist trash if they didn't have the power to do so?Sure can.
The short of it is three words: Money buys power.
The government is essentially a front for the big players/big-monied interests/multi-national corporations. They use the government facade to manipulate and abuse our system of government, our system of justice and the future of the american citizenry.
GrassrootsConservative
02-15-2014, 04:59 PM
Sure can.
The short of it is three words: Money buys power.
The government is essentially a front for the big players/big-monied interests/multi-national corporations. They use the government facade to manipulate and abuse our system of government, our system of justice and the future of the american citizenry.
And if you take away their ability to do that via Conservatism?
Unfortunately, OpenSecrets tells a very incomplete story. But yes, it is true that cronyism is just as prevalent on the left as it is on the right.
You are joshing us all of course.
Mainecoons
02-15-2014, 05:02 PM
Interesting info. Note that almost all of the money donated to the Elephants is from financial/white-collar institutions and the larger retail corporations, which sets the Republicans' agenda. Money donated to the Donkeys comes from unions representing working americans along with other middle-class related institutions. This sets their opposing agenda. (Bitch all you want about unions, but only 11% of american workers are union members. The lowest percentage ever in American history.) So is it any wonder that the Elephants then represent the interests of Wallstreet, while the Donkeys represent that of Mainstreet?
It's just a battle of big money vs the middle class, fought by proxy.
Hey Blad, that's because those unions have killed so many jobs for working Americans. Now I'll admit, when it comes to job killing they are looking like pikers these days compared to your Obama and his Democrats.
But we do agree about money in politics in the U.S. Absolutely toxic. But please, don't make yourself look stupid by telling us how unions represent working people's interests these days. I hope you are smarter than that.
Although they can be interesting, charts rarely present a clear and honest picture. They are as trustworthy as any article written with bias. Which is most all of them.
And what's worse is that OpenSecrets only publicizes the legally disclosed donors. That's only a part fo the picture, iven that most donors funnel their money to candidates indirectly.
bladimz
02-15-2014, 05:30 PM
And if you take away their ability to do that via Conservatism?Are you serious?
Explain, if you can, how the magical powers of conservatism could do that. I'd love to hear this one. (Because it would have to be magic.)
You are joshing us all of course.
Yeah, the left is pure and perfect as the image they like to project. I suppose I was stating the obvious.
zelmo1234
02-15-2014, 05:40 PM
Interesting info. Note that almost all of the money donated to the Elephants is from financial/white-collar institutions and the larger retail corporations, which sets the Republicans' agenda. Money donated to the Donkeys comes from unions representing working americans along with other middle-class related institutions. This sets their opposing agenda. (Bitch all you want about unions, but only 11% of american workers are union members. The lowest percentage ever in American history.) So is it any wonder that the Elephants then represent the interests of Wallstreet, while the Donkeys represent that of Mainstreet?
It's just a battle of big money vs the middle class, fought by proxy.
Just what policies do you think the Donkey's are supporting that are helping main street, and why!
zelmo1234
02-15-2014, 05:40 PM
Except the Unions don't really represent their workers.....
Have not been supporting the workers since the 60's
zelmo1234
02-15-2014, 05:42 PM
Well they certainly don't represent Wall Street.
Knock unions as much as you want. They wouldn't exist if they weren't necessary, the very fact that membership in unions has dropped to 11% says that as safety and other worker-friendly regulations are put in place, unions lose their necessity. Any union that wouldn't work in the interests of their membership wouldn't last too long. Some push the opposition too hard which can possibly hurt their members in the end, but this is the exception rather than the rule.
Before that right to work legislation, you either joined the Union or you did not get the job?
That that is the freedom of choice that the unions support!
bladimz
02-15-2014, 05:45 PM
Hey Blad, that's because those unions have killed so many jobs for working Americans. Now I'll admit, when it comes to job killing they are looking like pikers these days compared to your Obama and his Democrats.
But we do agree about money in politics in the U.S. Absolutely toxic. But please, don't make yourself look stupid by telling us how unions represent working people's interests these days. I hope you are smarter than that.I know it's pretty popular to rag on unions these days. If you're saying that the unionized american force is on the decrease only because the unions (party of the first part) are destroying american jobs (party of the second part), the 1st part is on the path to self-destruction.
One of the biggest unions, the NEA, has done pretty well for their members. Just ask any teachers who are currently at the age of retirement. Ask them what kind of sweetheart deal their union has created for them. I don't like it, but i'm not a teacher. They're not working for the american public, they're working for their members. Tell me they aren't.
zelmo1234
02-15-2014, 05:45 PM
Are you serious?
Explain, if you can, how the magical powers of conservatism could do that. I'd love to hear this one. (Because it would have to be magic.)
Economic growth, works every time it has been tried!
zelmo1234
02-15-2014, 05:47 PM
I know it's pretty popular to rag on unions these days. If you're saying that the unionized american force is on the decrease only because the unions (party of the first part) are destroying american jobs (party of the second part), the 1st part is on the path to self-destruction.
One of the biggest unions, the NEA, has done pretty well for their members. Just ask any teachers who are currently at the age of retirement. Ask them what kind of sweetheart deal their union has created for them. I don't like it, but i'm not a teacher. They're not working for the american public, they're working for their members. Tell me they aren't.
So how has that worked out for the kids??? They don't even try to teach them anymore. we keep sliding down the scale, falling further and further behind the rest of the world!
That is your big success story!
Peter1469
02-15-2014, 05:56 PM
I know it's pretty popular to rag on unions these days. If you're saying that the unionized american force is on the decrease only because the unions (party of the first part) are destroying american jobs (party of the second part), the 1st part is on the path to self-destruction.
One of the biggest unions, the NEA, has done pretty well for their members. Just ask any teachers who are currently at the age of retirement. Ask them what kind of sweetheart deal their union has created for them. I don't like it, but i'm not a teacher. They're not working for the american public, they're working for their members. Tell me they aren't.
While test scores drop....
bladimz
02-15-2014, 06:00 PM
Before that right to work legislation, you either joined the Union or you did not get the job?
That that is the freedom of choice that the unions support!You can look at it that way, or you can just avoid looking for work in a union shop. It's as simple as that. Right?
I love the idea of the right to work legislation... no matter where you go, you can get a job working in a unionized shop, without having to join or pay dues to the union. But you still enjoy the benefits that the union has negotiated on behalf of their membership. Kind of a free-rider, like a tick on a dog. I think the dog should shake that tick off.
bladimz
02-15-2014, 06:04 PM
While test scores drop....The method and the lack of success of modern education in this country is a serious issue, but it's no measure of NEA's successful negotiations on behalf of it's members.
zelmo1234
02-15-2014, 06:06 PM
The method and the lack of success of modern education in this country is a serious issue, but it's no measure of NEA's successful negotiations on behalf of it's members.
Yes it is, we can't get rid of teachers that have no business being in front of our children
zelmo1234
02-15-2014, 06:07 PM
You can look at it that way, or you can just avoid looking for work in a union shop. It's as simple as that. Right?
I love the idea of the right to work legislation... no matter where you go, you can get a job working in a unionized shop, without having to join or pay dues to the union. But you still enjoy the benefits that the union has negotiated on behalf of their membership. Kind of a free-rider, like a tick on a dog. I think the dog should shake that tick off.
The Union was not going to stand up for them anyway they just wanted the dues for the DNC
Peter1469
02-15-2014, 06:10 PM
You can look at it that way, or you can just avoid looking for work in a union shop. It's as simple as that. Right?
I love the idea of the right to work legislation... no matter where you go, you can get a job working in a unionized shop, without having to join or pay dues to the union. But you still enjoy the benefits that the union has negotiated on behalf of their membership. Kind of a free-rider, like a tick on a dog. I think the dog should shake that tick off.
Or you can have a percentage of your paycheck go directly into DNC coffers....
bladimz
02-15-2014, 06:12 PM
So how has that worked out for the kids??? They don't even try to teach them anymore. we keep sliding down the scale, falling further and further behind the rest of the world!
That is your big success story!Yes we do. We're fast losing our international standing. Education is just one of many. I hate to use the word Pathetic, but sometimes i wonder just what kind of country we live in.
NEA's successful negotiations is an example of a union that works in the interests of it's members... something that lotsa jamokes refuse to admit. I never said that the union's success translates in any way to the success of education. I never will. That's a different argument. Meanwhile, I'd like for one person to name any union that doesn't.
zelmo1234
02-15-2014, 06:17 PM
Yes we do. We're fast losing our international standing. Education is just one of many. I hate to use the word Pathetic, but sometimes i wonder just what kind of country we live in.
NEA's successful negotiations is an example of a union that works in the interests of it's members... something that
lotsa jamokes refuse to admit. I'd like for one person to name any union that doesn't.
Well the Union that represented the Electralux Company in Greenville MI declared victory after stand ing up to the evil management,
2700+ workers lost their job when the company moved to Mexico, how did that work out for them and millions of others that lost there jobs because of the union!
bladimz
02-15-2014, 06:18 PM
Or you can have a percentage of your paycheck go directly into DNC coffers....Hell, why do that? That would take all the fun out of the free "right-to-work" ride.I certainly can't imagine why any union would send a dime to the GOP vault. What is the big gripe with unions making political contributions, anyway. What's the difference between unions and corporations in this regard?
zelmo1234
02-15-2014, 06:20 PM
Hell, why do that? That would take all the fun out of the free "right-to-work" ride.
I certainly can't imagine why any union would send a dime to the GOP vault.
You don't get it, the Union would drive the company off shore, the right to work keeps them in check and allows people to keep their jobs!
Peter1469
02-15-2014, 06:23 PM
Hell, why do that? That would take all the fun out of the free "right-to-work" ride.
I certainly can't imagine why any union would send a dime to the GOP vault.
Why send money to either political party? Why not help the workers?
bladimz
02-15-2014, 06:30 PM
Yes it is, we can't get rid of teachers that have no business being in front of our childrenThat's called tenure, and that's a perfect example of the kind of work the union has done on behalf of it's members (not the kids, not the parents, not the nation...). You've made my point perfectly.
Green Arrow
02-15-2014, 06:32 PM
I can not like the Kochs without being rabidly obsessive about them like the Democrats. I hold them in the same contempt as George Soros and Warren Buffett.
bladimz
02-15-2014, 06:35 PM
Why send money to either political party? Why not help the workers?I totally agree. Donations from any organization is BS. Only if, of course, every single person in that organization wants it's share of the money to go to that intended politician. And that's BS too.
Peter1469
02-15-2014, 06:36 PM
Tenure does protect teachers from punitive action but it also protects incompetent teachers. IMPress Polly. What are your thoughts as a teacher?
IMPress Polly
02-16-2014, 04:58 PM
In theory, pay-for-performance sounds like the best way to go. In the real world, there are a lot of outside factors teachers can't control that affect student performance in school, like what their home and neighborhood environment is, and for that matter whether the school itself has adequate financial resources. Most teachers feel that it's unfair to be held accountable for those things. I'm not really decided as to where I stand. I do, however, support the new Common Core. When it comes specifically to teacher pay though, I really feel that the main thing is that teaching needs to be made a prestigious career; one prestigious enough to attract the best and the brightest. For most teachers, this was their fallback option, not their first career choice. We need to change that if we want to have a larger array of quality teachers. To me though it kind of feels like the pay-for-performance people overlap almost 100% with the anti-union crowd and that their real motives don't include making teaching a respected, prestigious career choice, but rather shrinking the incomes, benefits, and job security of workers in general and teachers in particular because teaching is today the most unionized profession left in America. There is hence some natural skepticism of the idea on my part, though I remain open-minded.
Chris
02-16-2014, 05:01 PM
Interesting info. Note that almost all of the money donated to the Elephants is from financial/white-collar institutions and the larger retail corporations, which sets the Republicans' agenda. Money donated to the Donkeys comes from unions representing working americans along with other middle-class related institutions. This sets their opposing agenda. (Bitch all you want about unions, but only 11% of american workers are union members. The lowest percentage ever in American history.) So is it any wonder that the Elephants then represent the interests of Wallstreet, while the Donkeys represent that of Mainstreet?
It's just a battle of big money vs the middle class, fought by proxy.
Corporatism = corporations and unions rent seeking political favors from government.
Peter1469
02-16-2014, 06:55 PM
It would be nice if we could factor in some of those outside pressures in a pay-for-performance system. I have not been close to the issue, since I don't have kids, but I always thought that pay-for-performance would result in significant raises for quality teachers, and perhaps pay cuts for non performers.
In theory, pay-for-performance sounds like the best way to go. In the real world, there are a lot of outside factors teachers can't control that affect student performance in school, like what their home and neighborhood environment is, and for that matter whether the school itself has adequate financial resources. Most teachers feel that it's unfair to be held accountable for those things. I'm not really decided as to where I stand. I do, however, support the new Common Core. When it comes specifically to teacher pay though, I really feel that the main thing is that teaching needs to be made a prestigious career; one prestigious enough to attract the best and the brightest. For most teachers, this was their fallback option, not their first career choice. We need to change that if we want to have a larger array of quality teachers. To me though it kind of feels like the pay-for-performance people overlap almost 100% with the anti-union crowd and that their real motives don't include making teaching a respected, prestigious career choice, but rather shrinking the incomes, benefits, and job security of workers in general and teachers in particular because teaching is today the most unionized profession left in America. There is hence some natural skepticism of the idea on my part, though I remain open-minded.
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