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dattaswami
03-09-2012, 11:34 PM
Nobody sees God. God is not touched even by imagination. How can we see God? God enters some medium and becomes visible through that medium (through Lord in human form or Son of God). Through that medium also you are experiencing only the existence God. Only experience of existence is possible. There is no way to see God directly. The current cannot be seen directly. When it flows in a wire only its existence can be experienced.

spunkloaf
03-10-2012, 01:27 AM
You can't see the wind, either. You can't see gravity. You can't pick up and toss a beam of light. You can't weigh music in ounces or pounds.

We're stuck in our perception of the universe. We can only believe what lies before us, in what we perceive and imagine. Even as vast as our collective human knowledge and imagination is, it's still very limited to our infinitely short experience on this spec of dust floating in space. Our thirst for knowledge demands fundamental answers. Some of us create an answer in the form of a cultural fable upheld by traditions passed down through many generations. Others are more comfortable remaining curious, relying only on consistently observable clues. In all probability, it's likely that any definite and final solution to our origin as fathomed by any human is entirely false.

dattaswami
03-10-2012, 04:37 AM
You can't see the wind, either. You can't see gravity. You can't pick up and toss a beam of light. You can't weigh music in ounces or pounds.

We're stuck in our perception of the universe. We can only believe what lies before us, in what we perceive and imagine. Even as vast as our collective human knowledge and imagination is, it's still very limited to our infinitely short experience on this spec of dust floating in space. Our thirst for knowledge demands fundamental answers. Some of us create an answer in the form of a cultural fable upheld by traditions passed down through many generations. Others are more comfortable remaining curious, relying only on consistently observable clues. In all probability, it's likely that any definite and final solution to our origin as fathomed by any human is entirely false.


The unimaginable God is beyond the four-dimensional model of space and time. You can imagine the dissolution of matter converting into energy filling the space. Subsequently you can imagine the disappearance of energy in the space and the result is final vacuum. But, even if you try for your lifetime, you can never imagine the disappearance of vacuum.

God being the generator of space is beyond space and therefore, can never be imagined. If you have to imagine God, the pre-requisite is the imagination of disappearance of space or vacuum. Of course space is a form of very fine energy and in this context the word energy used by Me can be taken as crude form of energy. The only knowledge about God is that He is beyond the knowledge (Yasyaamatam… Veda).

spunkloaf
03-10-2012, 02:13 PM
I know exactly what you mean. Just as you imply that it is impossible to fathom for a moment an absence of a vacuum, it is also impossible to imagine in any given area the absence of time. That alone gives a good clue to the interconnection of space and time. One of the two must always exist for the other to be observed.

None of this is to suggest that time and space must exist onmipresently, eternally and indefinitely--as long as they exist simultaneously. As with many things, just because we can't imagine it doesn't mean it cannot be.

Chris
03-10-2012, 03:41 PM
What is God?

spunkloaf
03-10-2012, 05:22 PM
What is God?

Great question. I can't answer that. I can say that God is supposed to be the creator of everything. But I can't explain for certain what God is, logically.

roadmaster
03-10-2012, 07:20 PM
I have never seen God but have felt His presence. I know some have said that they have but I have seen His works and that cannot be explained by science. Mans knowledge can't come close to His.

Conley
03-10-2012, 07:25 PM
Good to see you posting Roadmaster! I hope all is well with you and yours.

roadmaster
03-10-2012, 07:25 PM
What is God?

The light in the darkest tunnel. Put your burdens on Him. They say it's all about faith but it's more than that. It's knowing and as a Christ follower He has never not been there. Best way I can explain it.

roadmaster
03-10-2012, 07:26 PM
Good to see you posting Roadmaster! I hope all is well with you and yours.




Thank you!

dattaswami
03-10-2012, 07:46 PM
What is God?

God is unimaginable. You can even define Him since He do not have any spatial co-ordinates but exists.

God has no beginning and no end because God is unimaginable. The beginning and the end must be also unimaginable for an unimaginable item. The beginning and the end of the cosmic energy or space or the creation are also unimaginable. Therefore, the beginning and the end are unimaginable for the unimaginable item like God and also for the imaginable item like space. Therefore, the two points, which are the beginning-less and end-less characteristics cannot help you in understanding the real nature of God. If you start recognizing the God by simply these two points (beginning-less and end-less), you may think that God is an imaginable item like the space or energy or the creation. In fact based on these two characteristics people have imagined God as an imaginable item like space or energy or creation. This concept has misled people to such a low level that people think that God is the very infinite space or infinite energy or infinite creation. Therefore, one should filter the concept of God at this juncture itself. One should think that God has no beginning and no end because the beginning and the end of an unimaginable item are also unimaginable.

Such God desired to create this Universe for entertainment. The very desire itself is the Creation. In view of God this present materialized universe in only an idea or imagination or the very desire itself. Therefore, the desire to create the world is itself the desire and also the created world itself is a desire. Thus the creation, maintenance and dissolution of the imaginary world are also imaginations or desires. A part of this infinite creation is the individual soul. The soul is like a drop of the infinite ocean of imagination or desire of God. Thus, quantitatively the entire ocean of imagination of God is very huge compared to the tiny soul. Remember that both the Universe and the tiny soul are made of the same substance called as imagination or desire. Thus the force of the Universe is far greater than the force of the soul. Due to such huge quantitative difference of the same phase, the Universe, which is far stronger than the soul appears as a materialized entity for the soul. But this infinite ocean of desire, which is the infinite Universe is a tiny drop compared to the infinite force of God. Therefore, again due to the same quantitative difference of force the entire universe is just the very weak imagination from the view of God. Thus imagination and materialization exist simultaneously true from the point of God and soul.

spunkloaf
03-11-2012, 09:12 AM
I have never seen God but have felt His presence. I know some have said that they have but I have seen His works and that cannot be explained by science. Mans knowledge can't come close to His.

There are plenty of things which science can't yet explain, and there are some things which it probably never will. Science and religion are very different things. Both can (and should) coexist, and one does not need to conflict with the other as long as a person does not let it. I say this to make a point that if science can't explain something, by no means should religion becomes the default explanation.

This isn't at all an attempt to dispute that you felt the presence of God. I've had moments myself which may relate to what you're describing. One time in particular, I had a moment where everything was suddenly put into perspective. I felt like I didn't need to worry anymore, because everything happens as it does, and all will be right in the end. I still carry that feeling to this day, sometimes more than others.

I might say it was the presence of God. However as I see it, it does not make any sense that God's presence would suddenly show up on my radar, because God is always there. That is, unless I was able to somehow detect the presence more vividly during that moment which gave me the sensation I had. I can claim that God made a special intervention to allow me to feel that, or I can say that God did nothing at all--and I was just accidentally tuned deeper in to God's presence for a moment. I'm thinking it was the latter because I don't see God as making interventions, concessions, miracles or curses--at least not in any way which would make sense to us. I just must have been smoking some really good weed.

spunkloaf
03-11-2012, 10:51 AM
God is unimaginable. You can even define Him since He do not have any spatial co-ordinates but exists.

...people have imagined God as an imaginable item like space or energy or creation. This concept has misled people to such a low level that people think that God is the very infinite space or infinite energy or infinite creation. Therefore, one should filter the concept of God at this juncture itself. One should think that God has no beginning and no end because the beginning and the end of an unimaginable item are also unimaginable.

As a matter of opinion, it would seem much harder to imagine a universe expanding into existence from an infinitely dense point that is so incredibly tiny that it approaches nothingness. I'd be more comfortable with the idea of a universe with no beginning or end, because it leaves you asking fewer questions. However, the law of entropy doesn't allow for an endless universe. Assuming the laws of physics are eternally consistent, eventually everything is going to decay into darkness. The universe will undergo either a big crunch (gravity overpowers expansion and the universe collapses inwards on itself) or a big rip (expansion overpowers gravity and accelerates until expansion is so fast that the universe rips apart). Since there will be an end, that means there must have been a beginning.

Since we don't really know what God is, and since it is an omnipotent creator of everything which we can prove exists only by referencing ancient stories, it's impossible to logically assert:
1.) that God exists (asserted in this instance only by mere logic, not feelings or traditions or religions)
2.) what form God manifests itself in
3.) what realm or dimension God manifests itself in
4.) if God is entirely separate from existence altogether

Chris
03-11-2012, 11:26 AM
Great question. I can't answer that. I can say that God is supposed to be the creator of everything. But I can't explain for certain what God is, logically.
I doubt anyone can. I've been asking for decades.

Chris
03-11-2012, 11:27 AM
I have never seen God but have felt His presence. I know some have said that they have but I have seen His works and that cannot be explained by science. Mans knowledge can't come close to His.
So it's a personal thing, what God is? Not a matter of knowledge but something else?

Chris
03-11-2012, 11:29 AM
The light in the darkest tunnel. Put your burdens on Him. They say it's all about faith but it's more than that. It's knowing and as a Christ follower He has never not been there. Best way I can explain it.
Tell me what you know either factually or logically then. That was the question, what is God?

Chris
03-11-2012, 11:32 AM
God is unimaginable. You can even define Him since He do not have any spatial co-ordinates but exists.

God has no beginning and no end because God is unimaginable. The beginning and the end must be also unimaginable for an unimaginable item. The beginning and the end of the cosmic energy or space or the creation are also unimaginable. Therefore, the beginning and the end are unimaginable for the unimaginable item like God and also for the imaginable item like space. Therefore, the two points, which are the beginning-less and end-less characteristics cannot help you in understanding the real nature of God. If you start recognizing the God by simply these two points (beginning-less and end-less), you may think that God is an imaginable item like the space or energy or the creation. In fact based on these two characteristics people have imagined God as an imaginable item like space or energy or creation. This concept has misled people to such a low level that people think that God is the very infinite space or infinite energy or infinite creation. Therefore, one should filter the concept of God at this juncture itself. One should think that God has no beginning and no end because the beginning and the end of an unimaginable item are also unimaginable.

Such God desired to create this Universe for entertainment. The very desire itself is the Creation. In view of God this present materialized universe in only an idea or imagination or the very desire itself. Therefore, the desire to create the world is itself the desire and also the created world itself is a desire. Thus the creation, maintenance and dissolution of the imaginary world are also imaginations or desires. A part of this infinite creation is the individual soul. The soul is like a drop of the infinite ocean of imagination or desire of God. Thus, quantitatively the entire ocean of imagination of God is very huge compared to the tiny soul. Remember that both the Universe and the tiny soul are made of the same substance called as imagination or desire. Thus the force of the Universe is far greater than the force of the soul. Due to such huge quantitative difference of the same phase, the Universe, which is far stronger than the soul appears as a materialized entity for the soul. But this infinite ocean of desire, which is the infinite Universe is a tiny drop compared to the infinite force of God. Therefore, again due to the same quantitative difference of force the entire universe is just the very weak imagination from the view of God. Thus imagination and materialization exist simultaneously true from the point of God and soul.
"God is unimaginable."

If you can't even begin to imagine God then you can't know what God is.

"God has no beginning and no end..."

You're telling me what he is not. The question is, what is God?

"Such God desired..."

How do you know God has human attributes? Don't you risk, like St Anselm, creating God in your image, your imagination?

dattaswami
03-11-2012, 09:10 PM
"God is unimaginable."

If you can't even begin to imagine God then you can't know what God is.

"God has no beginning and no end..."

You're telling me what he is not. The question is, what is God?

"Such God desired..."

How do you know God has human attributes? Don't you risk, like St Anselm, creating God in your image, your imagination?

See you can define anything in this world since it has spatial co-ordinates. You think that God is like a created item like mountain, table, human who has spatial co-ordinates! God do not have any spatial co-ordinates He is unimaginable! When He is unimaginable how can you define Him.


You should not say that God is incapable of preaching the characteristics of God and that it shows only the ignorance about God. Most of the people are thinking God as imaginable item like awareness, all pervading energy, visible light, inert matter etc. Negating all these possibilities and establishing the true unimaginable nature of God itself is the perfect and complete knowledge of God. By realizing completely that God is unimaginable, you have attained the true knowledge of God. Nobody other than God can understand God (Brahamavit Brahmaiva….Veda).

Therefore, God is not ignorant Himself. The inability to understand God belongs to the limited scope of intelligence of human being and it is not due to incapable explanation of God. A blind man can never see any object, however much it may be explained. The defect lies with the blind man and not with the preacher. The intelligence of any human being cannot cross the spatial dimensions and can never imagine God, the generator of space, existing beyond space without spatial dimensions. The reason for not understanding God is also clearly explained by God. Therefore, God is the best preacher of the ultimate truth and the main purpose of human incarnation is only to preach the true spiritual knowledge, which alone can save any human being in the ultimate sense.

God is unimaginable and His attributes also is unknown. But such God comes in human form. You can experience unimaginable God through such living GOD IN HUMAN FORM of your time. You can only experience you can never ever know the real nature of God.

Chris
03-12-2012, 05:46 AM
See you can define anything in this world since it has spatial co-ordinates. You think that God is like a created item like mountain, table, human who has spatial co-ordinates! God do not have any spatial co-ordinates He is unimaginable! When He is unimaginable how can you define Him.


You should not say that God is incapable of preaching the characteristics of God and that it shows only the ignorance about God. Most of the people are thinking God as imaginable item like awareness, all pervading energy, visible light, inert matter etc. Negating all these possibilities and establishing the true unimaginable nature of God itself is the perfect and complete knowledge of God. By realizing completely that God is unimaginable, you have attained the true knowledge of God. Nobody other than God can understand God (Brahamavit Brahmaiva….Veda).

Therefore, God is not ignorant Himself. The inability to understand God belongs to the limited scope of intelligence of human being and it is not due to incapable explanation of God. A blind man can never see any object, however much it may be explained. The defect lies with the blind man and not with the preacher. The intelligence of any human being cannot cross the spatial dimensions and can never imagine God, the generator of space, existing beyond space without spatial dimensions. The reason for not understanding God is also clearly explained by God. Therefore, God is the best preacher of the ultimate truth and the main purpose of human incarnation is only to preach the true spiritual knowledge, which alone can save any human being in the ultimate sense.

God is unimaginable and His attributes also is unknown. But such God comes in human form. You can experience unimaginable God through such living GOD IN HUMAN FORM of your time. You can only experience you can never ever know the real nature of God.
"You think that God is like..."

Where'd I say that?

"You should not say that God is..."

I haven't said anything, only asked what is God?

"By realizing completely that God is unimaginable, you have attained the true knowledge of God. "

You're not making any sense. Especially when you later say "God is unimaginable and His attributes also is unknown."


You don't know what God is, do you.

dattaswami
03-12-2012, 05:58 AM
"You think that God is like..."

Where'd I say that?

"You should not say that God is..."

I haven't said anything, only asked what is God?

"By realizing completely that God is unimaginable, you have attained the true knowledge of God. "

You're not making any sense. Especially when you later say "God is unimaginable and His attributes also is unknown."


You don't know what God is, do you.

One should not blame God that He is unable to make us understand the unimaginable God. So far we are thinking that we are able to understand God after doing lot of penance. This wrong knowledge is removed by God and today, you understood that you can never understand God. This point is also supported by the absence of spatial dimensions of God.

By this, scientists need not think that the unimaginable God beyond space does not exist at all. The genuine miracles, which are unimaginable events, exhibited by unimaginable source called as God, establish the existence of unimaginable entity and it is supported by the point that such unimaginable God is beyond space being the creator of space.

Chris
03-12-2012, 06:35 AM
One should not blame God that He is unable to make us understand the unimaginable God. So far we are thinking that we are able to understand God after doing lot of penance. This wrong knowledge is removed by God and today, you understood that you can never understand God. This point is also supported by the absence of spatial dimensions of God.

By this, scientists need not think that the unimaginable God beyond space does not exist at all. The genuine miracles, which are unimaginable events, exhibited by unimaginable source called as God, establish the existence of unimaginable entity and it is supported by the point that such unimaginable God is beyond space being the creator of space.
"One should not blame God..."

Is that what you're doing for it sure isn't what I'm doing. I don't know what God is to blame anything.

"God is beyond space being the creator of space."

How do you know this? Is it belief rather than knowledge? If knowledge, explain rationally how you know it. If belief, that's fine, but doesn't answer my question.

dattaswami
03-12-2012, 10:45 AM
"One should not blame God..."

Is that what you're doing for it sure isn't what I'm doing. I don't know what God is to blame anything.

"God is beyond space being the creator of space."

How do you know this? Is it belief rather than knowledge? If knowledge, explain rationally how you know it. If belief, that's fine, but doesn't answer my question.
God comes in human form and preaches the knowledge that He is beyond human logic. The Veda says that the Lord alone knows about Himself (Brahmavit Brahmaiva). The Gita says that nobody other than the Lord can know theLord. The conclusion ofthis is that the Lord alone can preach about the Lord or Himself.
Therefore, from this point of view also the Lord has to comedown in human form to preach about Himself. When the Lord preaches, He preachesthe concept very clearly. Based on this knowledge, you will naturally concludethat the Preacher is the Lord Himself. This is inevitable with any humanincarnation.



If youhave any doubt about the preacher being the Lord, you can analyse Hisknowledge. First you must see whether He is quoting the scriptures as a supportwhile introducing the concepts. Then you must apply the faculty of youranalysis and see whether His interpretations are logical.

When you are satisfied with His divineknowledge in all angles and if such knowledge indicates Him as the Lord youmust accept Him. If you are unable to do this, you are covered by jealousy andegoism. Shankara says that the knowledge to identify Brahman (Brahma Jnana)should be heard only after purifying your mind from egoism and jealousy.

spunkloaf
03-12-2012, 11:12 AM
Tell me what you know either factually or logically then. That was the question, what is God?


Keep in mind that since nobody can really explain God logically, people are entitled to construe whatever interpretation works for them. If you ask the average person to respond to your question and you expect something that is logical by your standards, you are going to be disappointed. It's a good question, but an unanswerable question should not be used to attempt to force logic on people where it does not exist.

Alias
03-12-2012, 01:49 PM
I've seen God and he's nothing like anyone imagines. He's invisible, but he makes a lot of noise so he's easy to find.

roadmaster
03-12-2012, 02:13 PM
There are plenty of things which science can't yet explain, and there are some things which it probably never will. Science and religion are very different things. Both can (and should) coexist, and one does not need to conflict with the other as long as a person does not let it. I say this to make a point that if science can't explain something, by no means should religion becomes the default explanation.

This isn't at all an attempt to dispute that you felt the presence of God. I've had moments myself which may relate to what you're describing. One time in particular, I had a moment where everything was suddenly put into perspective. I felt like I didn't need to worry anymore, because everything happens as it does, and all will be right in the end. I still carry that feeling to this day, sometimes more than others.

I might say it was the presence of God. However as I see it, it does not make any sense that God's presence would suddenly show up on my radar, because God is always there. That is, unless I was able to somehow detect the presence more vividly during that moment which gave me the sensation I had. I can claim that God made a special intervention to allow me to feel that, or I can say that God did nothing at all--and I was just accidentally tuned deeper in to God's presence for a moment. I'm thinking it was the latter because I don't see God as making interventions, concessions, miracles or curses--at least not in any way which would make sense to us. I just must have been smoking some really good weed.
If you are a true believer God is always there. May not like the answers but He alone can see the future. At the time we may ever get angry and disappointed as to why one survived and the other didn’t. But He can see the future and we cannot. It’s ok to be angry at times. Remember His words “ For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light. Let no man put too many burdens on you. Some cults and even Churches try to do this but always remember His words.

MMC
03-12-2012, 06:13 PM
I've seen God and he's nothing like anyone imagines. He's invisible, but he makes a lot of noise so he's easy to find.

I saw him too.....

http://ts2.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4780771536798981&id=956a3e883ac6143949e7e55354e9c443&index=newexp&url=http%3a%2f%2f3.bp.blogspot.com%2f__mokxbTmuJM% 2fRwRA6evzxlI%2fAAAAAAAAA0g%2f0ker-wdAuwo%2fs400%2f061420071144235808.jpg

and then he reappeared again.....

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=5036584060781014&id=2e101b35c9dd320a20347a0c5c593914&index=newexp&url=http%3a%2f%2fsupershopsite.com%2fproduct_image %2fMovies%2foh-god-book-2-widescreen.jpg :wink:

Chris
03-12-2012, 06:19 PM
Keep in mind that since nobody can really explain God logically, people are entitled to construe whatever interpretation works for them. If you ask the average person to respond to your question and you expect something that is logical by your standards, you are going to be disappointed. It's a good question, but an unanswerable question should not be used to attempt to force logic on people where it does not exist.
That is true. There are not different logics however, only one. Minor quibble. But what you say is, I think, generally true. God cannot be explained logically, reasonably. But that being true is no reason for anyone to give up personal belief or faith in God.

dattaswami
03-12-2012, 08:30 PM
Keep in mind that since nobody can really explain God logically, people are entitled to construe whatever interpretation works for them. If you ask the average person to respond to your question and you expect something that is logical by your standards, you are going to be disappointed. It's a good question, but an unanswerable question should not be used to attempt to force logic on people where it does not exist.

One religion says that the God is awareness. Another religion says that God is all pervading cosmic energy. Another religion says that God is light and another religion says that God is fire etc. Like this, different created items of this universe were taken as the basic real God. Hence quarrels started, which were intensified by debates. People sitting before a dining table are quarrelling with each other since one says that the vessel is gold, another says that the plate is gold, another says that the spoon is gold and another says that the tumbler is gold. This quarrel will never end because no item on the dining table is gold! Everyone is treating a particular item as gold. Treating an item as gold is totally different from the actual item to be gold.

Similarly, the reality is that God is unimaginable, who is beyond this imaginable universe. The simple reason for this is that the universe is fundamentally constituted of space or volume, which is the basic subtle energy and God is beyond the space since God has no dimensions. Now you can treat any meritorious item of the creation as God based on the merits liked by you neglecting the defects. The awareness is not God because it is not all pervading. The cosmic energy is not God because it is inert. The light and fire also cannot be God for the same reason that they are inert. But any of these items can be treated as God for the sake of meditation and worship.

Such worship is called as the worship of representative model (Pratika Upasana). The direct worship (Sakshat Upasana) is also possible when God enters a human being to give right direction through propagation of right spiritual knowledge. In such case also, every such human being is God and the unimaginable God exists in such every human being. The human being is only the medium of God, but such charged human being can be treated as real God like the electrified wire being treated as the electricity itself.

Hence Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammad etc becomes God and there need not be any quarrel in this point also for the sake of world peace based on the harmony of religions. This fundamental concept is revealed since simultaneously it is fortunate that today there is confidence on the receiving power of the stable and steady scientific analysis of human beings.

spunkloaf
03-14-2012, 04:53 PM
That is true. There are not different logics however, only one. Minor quibble. But what you say is, I think, generally true. God cannot be explained logically, reasonably. But that being true is no reason for anyone to give up personal belief or faith in God.

I think it would be the only reason, besides personal instability or an abundance of misfortune. Let's not forget about people who are not raised religiously, or are raised to practice different religions. Either way it doesn't matter. In this case it's all about perception. And you are right, there is only one truth. If something is unknown, we will fill in the gap with whatever works best for us. Nobody is confirmed as wrong or right. It's likely we're all completely out of our minds. If some think they have the answers, that's cool--as long as I can still search for my own. Which I can. So it's all good.

spunkloaf
03-14-2012, 05:23 PM
One religion says that the God is awareness. Another religion says that God is all pervading cosmic energy. Another religion says that God is light and another religion says that God is fire etc. Like this, different created items of this universe were taken as the basic real God. Hence quarrels started, which were intensified by debates. People sitting before a dining table are quarrelling with each other since one says that the vessel is gold, another says that the plate is gold, another says that the spoon is gold and another says that the tumbler is gold. This quarrel will never end because no item on the dining table is gold! Everyone is treating a particular item as gold. Treating an item as gold is totally different from the actual item to be gold.

Similarly, the reality is that God is unimaginable, who is beyond this imaginable universe. The simple reason for this is that the universe is fundamentally constituted of space or volume, which is the basic subtle energy and God is beyond the space since God has no dimensions. Now you can treat any meritorious item of the creation as God based on the merits liked by you neglecting the defects. The awareness is not God because it is not all pervading. The cosmic energy is not God because it is inert. The light and fire also cannot be God for the same reason that they are inert. But any of these items can be treated as God for the sake of meditation and worship.

Such worship is called as the worship of representative model (Pratika Upasana). The direct worship (Sakshat Upasana) is also possible when God enters a human being to give right direction through propagation of right spiritual knowledge. In such case also, every such human being is God and the unimaginable God exists in such every human being. The human being is only the medium of God, but such charged human being can be treated as real God like the electrified wire being treated as the electricity itself.

Hence Krishna, Buddha, Jesus, Mohammad etc becomes God and there need not be any quarrel in this point also for the sake of world peace based on the harmony of religions. This fundamental concept is revealed since simultaneously it is fortunate that today there is confidence on the receiving power of the stable and steady scientific analysis of human beings.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that nobody can find consensus on what God is, what form God comes in, how God interacts with this realm, or that God even exists. Everything you are saying is very deep and thoughtful, but it still hinges on your view of God. For that matter, we can't agree on anything in this realm beyond the observed constant laws of physics. That makes things more complicated. The color red might look red to me, but look blue to you. How would either of us know it? We both just call it Red. For all you know, this could all be some weird cosmic dream experience, and none of us even exist. How can you prove that wrong? I can tell you that I am real, but a character in a dream could do the same thing.

We agree on principles because we trust that certain rules are consistent, such as gravity or the speed of light. We can only have faith in what lies before us, but we can't even explain it or prove that it will be the same tomorrow, or prove that there will even be a tomorrow. We trust tomorrow will come only because it's happened many times before. That promises and proves nothing. We trust the constant effect of gravity because we've never seen it change. Still proves nothing. It sure gives us plenty of reason to have faith it will continue that way though.


As you can tell, my lack of faith is not strictly regarding religion, but extends to reality itself.

dattaswami
03-14-2012, 09:38 PM
You seem to be ignoring the fact that nobody can find consensus on what God is, what form God comes in, how God interacts with this realm, or that God even exists. Everything you are saying is very deep and thoughtful, but it still hinges on your view of God. For that matter, we can't agree on anything in this realm beyond the observed constant laws of physics. That makes things more complicated. The color red might look red to me, but look blue to you. How would either of us know it? We both just call it Red. For all you know, this could all be some weird cosmic dream experience, and none of us even exist. How can you prove that wrong? I can tell you that I am real, but a character in a dream could do the same thing.

We agree on principles because we trust that certain rules are consistent, such as gravity or the speed of light. We can only have faith in what lies before us, but we can't even explain it or prove that it will be the same tomorrow, or prove that there will even be a tomorrow. We trust tomorrow will come only because it's happened many times before. That promises and proves nothing. We trust the constant effect of gravity because we've never seen it change. Still proves nothing. It sure gives us plenty of reason to have faith it will continue that way though.


As you can tell, my lack of faith is not strictly regarding religion, but extends to reality itself.

Science has developed tremendously and faculty of logic improved a lot. People used to reject the existence of an unimaginable item. They refused God, who is unimaginable. But today in Science, Heisenberg proves the existence of uncertainty or unimaginability owing to the limits of human capability. Today is the right time to introduce the unimaginable concept of God. Buddha kept silent about God because, He did not like to introduce God through some unreal concepts. But, this lead to the misunderstanding of Buddha as an atheist. Shankara introduced God as almost unimaginable by representing God as awareness. Awareness is almost unimaginable to an ordinary person. Mohammed introduced God as power or energy. Awareness is energy only. Thus there is no fundamental difference between these two incarnations. But a common man cannot imagine God through that concept.


Science is the knowledge of the world (Vijnanam) and is unaware of God and hence, science can be also treated as ignorance (Avidya). Though science cannot speak about God, it can disprove the awareness as non-God item of creation. The Advaita philosopher, who does not know this ignorance (Science) mistakes awareness as God. Therefore, the knowledge of unimaginable God can be established only on knowing the science intensively, which can prove all the non-God items as non-God items only. To cross the Maya of awareness, one requires the help of ignorance (science) only and not the mere knowledge of God from the scripture.

Chris
03-15-2012, 08:28 AM
"Heisenberg proves the existence of uncertainty or unimaginability owing to the limits of human capability."

That's not what Heisenberg did. What he showed was given certain particle properties like position and momentum, the greater the precision of one measurement the greater the uncertainty of the other. It has nothing to do with human limitations.

dattaswami
03-15-2012, 09:44 AM
"Heisenberg proves the existence of uncertainty or unimaginability owing to the limits of human capability."

That's not what Heisenberg did. What he showed was given certain particle properties like position and momentum, the greater the precision of one measurement the greater the uncertainty of the other. It has nothing to do with human limitations.
There are several things, which are beyond reason but their existence is experienced through inference. This is accepted even in science due to inefficiency of measuring techniques (refer to Heisenberg’s uncertainity Principle). Work is a form of inert energy, which is neither energy nor the machine and nor the motion. But it is inferred by the final effect. The limit of space is beyond even imagination and reason. The life is from food (Matter) and matter is from energy.

Energy has no cause. Do you not believe the existence of energy, which has no cause? A boy loves a girl even though she is totally rejecting him. This is a factual case even though the reason does not exist in it. If love is reason, the reason of such love is absent and the question returns to the original state. Again the love is abstract, which is invisible but inferred from the above case.

All these points are created by God to give the information about Himself that He is unimaginable and His existence is only inferred through the experience. This does not mean that space, love, work (awareness) are God. These indicate God by giving the indirect information about God.

Chris
03-15-2012, 11:13 AM
There are several things, which are beyond reason but their existence is experienced through inference. This is accepted even in science due to inefficiency of measuring techniques (refer to Heisenberg’s uncertainity Principle). Work is a form of inert energy, which is neither energy nor the machine and nor the motion. But it is inferred by the final effect. The limit of space is beyond even imagination and reason. The life is from food (Matter) and matter is from energy.

Energy has no cause. Do you not believe the existence of energy, which has no cause? A boy loves a girl even though she is totally rejecting him. This is a factual case even though the reason does not exist in it. If love is reason, the reason of such love is absent and the question returns to the original state. Again the love is abstract, which is invisible but inferred from the above case.

All these points are created by God to give the information about Himself that He is unimaginable and His existence is only inferred through the experience. This does not mean that space, love, work (awareness) are God. These indicate God by giving the indirect information about God.
The Heisenberg Uncertainity Principle is perfectly reasonable if you understand it.

Hume showed cause and effect a convention.

You're arguing from incredulity.

dattaswami
03-16-2012, 06:59 AM
The Heisenberg Uncertainity Principle is perfectly reasonable if you understand it.

Hume showed cause and effect a convention.

You're arguing from incredulity.

Science keeps silent about the miracles because it cannot explain the miracles. Silence does not mean negation. In the books of science you do not find any topic with the name “denying miracles”. It only mentions the topics like light, heat, electricity etc., which are the topics of analysis of known and knowable items of the world. It never touches the unknown and unknowable aspects. In fact the uncertainty principle of Heisenberg establishes that there are certain concepts, which are beyond the accuracy of our senses and even sophisticated instruments like electron microscope etc. Therefore, science is neutral and cannot be added to atheists or theists.