The Tennessee Promise

[Green Arrow]

This (http://www.driveto55.org/tennessee-promise/) is the proposal Gov. Bill Haslam (R-TN) put before the legislature to give all Tennessee high school graduates two years of community college/TCAT (trade school) free of tuition. The requirements are:


All recipients must meet certain requirements such as: (1) completing the Free Application for Federal Student Aid (FAFSA), (2) working with an assigned mentor, (3) attending a college orientation, (4) maintaining satisfactory academic progress, and (5) performing one day of community service per semester.

[Akula]

Who IS going to pay for this "free tuition"?
Where does the money come from?

[nic34]

This (http://www.driveto55.org/tennessee-promise/) is the proposal Gov. Bill Haslam (R-TN) put before the legislature to give all Tennessee high school graduates two years of community college/TCAT (trade school) free of tuition. The requirements are:

Good for him. I'll take him off my s__t list for now...:grin:

[nic34]

Who IS going to pay for this "free tuition"?
Where does the money come from?

Well if you live in Tenn., YOU will.

It's time we invested in education. Or would you rather we import more H-1B people?

[pragmatic]

This (http://www.driveto55.org/tennessee-promise/) is the proposal Gov. Bill Haslam (R-TN) put before the legislature to give all Tennessee high school graduates two years of community college/TCAT (trade school) free of tuition. The requirements are:

If he has the funds available in the Tennessee budget to pay for.....then it sounds like a fine idea.

[Green Arrow]

Who IS going to pay for this "free tuition"?
Where does the money come from?

From the state budget. One of the qualifications is to fill out the FAFSA, so they may also be tying it to the federal budget. I doubt that, though, because they'd need to have Congressional approval for that and I don't see that happening. So they may just be using the FAFSA in lieu of a state "Free Application for State Student Aid." The program is still in the gestating stage, so I don't have all the details yet. The link has an information packet though for your perusal.

[Green Arrow]

Good for him. I'll take him off my s__t list for now...:grin:

Hell, I'm not. His proposal was very popular in the legislature between both parties. There's just no serious challenge to him this year, so he's guaranteed a second and final term.

[Green Arrow]

If he has the funds available in the Tennessee budget to pay for.....then it sounds like a fine idea.

Trust me, we have the funds.

[nathanbforrest45]

Who IS going to pay for this "free tuition"?
Where does the money come from?


The Tennessee Lottery

[Adelaide]

This sounds like a good idea, if it can be affordable not just now but in the future.

[MrJimmyDale]

If you can get the credits to transfer to the state colleges this would be wonderful........

I've heard too many horror stories of wasting most of 2 years of classes that the state schools will not allow to transfer.........

[nathanbforrest45]

If you can get the credits to transfer to the state colleges this would be wonderful........

I've heard too many horror stories of wasting most of 2 years of classes that the state schools will not allow to transfer.........


The problem is now anyone can call themselves a "college" Look at ITT Technical Institute. That bills itself as a college. Now we have a plethora of "technical colleges". And frankly, for many students that is exactly where they belong, not in a University system. I know a kid that went to a motorcycle mechanic's technical college. He is now running a WERA racing team for Kawasaki and doing well for himself. We want everyone to have an MBA but are not training the mechanics, plumbers and electricians we need as well.

[patrickt]

I realize we don't invest in education now. The awesome amount of money we spend is for unions.

[nic34]

How much was the awesome amount of money the unions cost you?

[The Sage of Main Street]

Who IS going to pay for this "free tuition"?
Where does the money come from?

Confiscate inheritance. The few people who belong in college, who must be given a high salary plus free tuition, are the real future, not mediocre freeloading Heirheads. I compare it to Jay Leno inheriting the Tonight Show, not Johnny Carson, Jr.

I anticipate that the bootlicking richlovers will say that the network owned the rights to designate Carson's "heir," but we, the people, own the rights to decide who will get ahead in the next generation. The wisest choice would be to finance the fittest, not the "fatherest."

[Akula]

Confiscate inheritance. The few people who belong in college, who must be given a high salary plus free tuition, are the real future, not mediocre freeloading Heirheads. I compare it to Jay Leno inheriting the Tonight Show, not Johnny Carson, Jr.

I anticipate that the bootlicking richlovers will say that the network owned the rights to designate Carson's "heir," but we, the people, own the rights to decide who will get ahead in the next generation. The wisest choice would be to finance the fittest, not the "fatherest."

That was pretty good.
I disagree with most of it...99.9%, but I understood your point.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Well if you live in Tenn., YOU will.

It's time we invested in education. Or would you rather we import more H-1B people?

Even with free tuition, this is an unnecessary and insulting sacrifice demanded from the talented. Getting a job by doing years of school work without pay is absurd and will turn the graduates into bitter and immoral Greedheads trying to make up for that slavery. Just imagine how few highschool football stars colleges would be able to recruit if all they were allowed to offer them was free tuition. An antidote must be found to the parasites who get rich off humiliated High IQs and brainwash the public into believing that this is an effective and generous solution.

[Akula]

There is no such thing as "free tuition".
That money comes from somewhere.

[Green Arrow]

There is no such thing as "free tuition".
That money comes from somewhere.

Right, the Tennessee Lottery. That's been said already.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

There is no such thing as "free tuition".
That money comes from somewhere.
Better to invest in a future tradesman or professional than an extension to the drone program, y'know?

[Ravi]

This (http://www.driveto55.org/tennessee-promise/) is the proposal Gov. Bill Haslam (R-TN) put before the legislature to give all Tennessee high school graduates two years of community college/TCAT (trade school) free of tuition. The requirements are:

Why would someone have to complete FASFA? Sounds like a government plot.

[Green Arrow]

Why would someone have to complete FASFA? Sounds like a government plot.

Record keeping, probably. There isn't a state FAFSA, so until there is, might as well use the federal system.

[Akula]

Better to invest in a future tradesman or professional than an extension to the drone program, y'know?

Either/or fallacy.

Weak.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

Either/or fallacy.

Weak.
Where do you like your taxes channeled, then?

[Akula]

Where do you like your taxes channeled, then?

Well, according to green arrow the money for tuition is coming from state lottery income so apparently no tax money is involved.

But even if it were tax money, to say that either the money goes to tuition or it goes to the "drone program" isn't accurate. That's not quite how it works.

[Peter1469]

I think this is a perfectly fine proposal for the citizens of Tennessee to consider for Tennessee. If they can pay for it without debt spending, and if they can keep the costs of community college and trade schools from skyrocketing (once "free money" is injected into the system) the pay off over time will be worth it. I think it is great that they don't include the 4 year university.

[nathanbforrest45]

This is a Tennessee issue. Other states have no "dog in that hunt" so they have no standing to comment. If the good citizens of Tennessee would rather educate their young people rather than support them on welfare then that is Tennessee's choice.

[Peter1469]

Well, people can comment on it. But they don't get to vote in Tennessee, so I get your point.

I have never read the Constitution of Tennessee. But this sort of government program, in general, is not outside the traditional power of the state governments.

[pragmatic]

Well, according to green arrow the money for tuition is coming from state lottery income so apparently no tax money is involved.

But even if it were tax money, to say that either the money goes to tuition or it goes to the "drone program" isn't accurate. That's not quite how it works.

To understand the full picture, it would be great to know where that lottery money was being spent before this proposal.

States have been sort of notorious for tying lottery revenues to education. And then just playing a shell game of just funding/spending from different sources...


//

[Mainecoons]

Well if you live in Tenn., YOU will.

It's time we invested in education. Or would you rather we import more H-1B people?

We've been investing in education, genius. Now we're investing in unemployment for a bunch of people with worthless college degrees.

We need to invest in trade schools.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/index.html?exp=3

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/09/does-spending-more-on-education-improve-academic-achievement

http://www.hamsterdameconomics.com/2012/06/28/inflation-adjusted-federal-k-12-spending-vs-student-achievement/


Many people believe that lack of funding is a problem in public education,[10] (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/09/does-spending-more-on-education-improve-academic-achievement#_ftn10) but historical trends show that American spending on public education is at an all-time high. Between 1994 and 2004, average per-pupil expenditures in American public schools have increased by 23.5 percent (adjusted for inflation). Between 1984 and 2004, real expenditures per pupil increased by 49 percent.[11] (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/09/does-spending-more-on-education-improve-academic-achievement#_ftn11) These increases follow the historical trend of ever-increasing real per-student expenditures in the nation's public schools. In fact, the per-pupil expenditures in 1970-1971 ($4,060) were less than half of per-pupil expenditures in 2005-2006 ($9,266) after adjusting for inflation.[12] (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/09/does-spending-more-on-education-improve-academic-achievement#_ftn12)

http://www.hamsterdameconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Cato-Coulson-Fed-Spend-Chart1.gif


You know, Nic, it would be a refreshing change here if instead of just chanting ObamaMantras you actually looked into things using credible sources.

[Max Rockatansky]

The problem is now anyone can call themselves a "college" Look at ITT Technical Institute. That bills itself as a college. Now we have a plethora of "technical colleges". And frankly, for many students that is exactly where they belong, not in a University system. I know a kid that went to a motorcycle mechanic's technical college. He is now running a WERA racing team for Kawasaki and doing well for himself. We want everyone to have an MBA but are not training the mechanics, plumbers and electricians we need as well.

ITT is a ripoff. When I was looking at taking welding classes (retirement job), I checked them out. They charged $17,000 for a year-long course which focused primarily on academics; memorizing specs on welders, electrodes, etc. I took all 10 non-credited night classes in welding at a community college for $200/each. The course was 99.9% hands on welding. Not a single "class" sitting, taking notes for a test. Plus gas, the entire course cost me $3500. Employers of welders don't give a shit how many specs a person can rattle off. They care whether or not an employment applicant can weld. The interview is "This is our welder, that's what we weld. Let's see what you can do".

ITT charged $26,000 for an auto mechanic course. When I went to check them out, I saw many young kids, probably fresh out of HS, signing up for $26K of debt for a class course that "guaranteed them an interview" but not a job. Most wouldn't be hired right away because the classes didn't provide them with the necessary experience of working on cars.

[Captain Obvious]

"Tennessee Promise"

Sounds like a bourbon.

[nic34]

We've been investing in education, genius. Now we're investing in unemployment for a bunch of people with worthless college degrees.

We need to invest in trade schools.

http://www2.ed.gov/about/overview/fed/10facts/index.html?exp=3

http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2008/09/does-spending-more-on-education-improve-academic-achievement

http://www.hamsterdameconomics.com/2012/06/28/inflation-adjusted-federal-k-12-spending-vs-student-achievement/



http://www.hamsterdameconomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Cato-Coulson-Fed-Spend-Chart1.gif


You know, Nic, it would be a refreshing change here if instead of just chanting ObamaMantras you actually looked into things using credible sources.

I wasn't talking about K-12, it's about a 2 year college, or vocational training. Genius.

[Mainecoons]

t's time we invested in education. Or would you rather we import more H-1B people?

You didn't make a specific statement, you made another one of your ObamaMantras, genius.

Wise up.

You are a real master at spending OPM. You live in AZ and you think TN should give away more free stuff.

[nathanbforrest45]

To understand the full picture, it would be great to know where that lottery money was being spent before this proposal.

States have been sort of notorious for tying lottery revenues to education. And then just playing a shell game of just funding/spending from different sources...


//


Do you live in Tennessee?

[nic34]

I think this is a perfectly fine proposal for the citizens of Tennessee to consider for Tennessee. If they can pay for it without debt spending, and if they can keep the costs of community college and trade schools from skyrocketing (once "free money" is injected into the system) the pay off over time will be worth it. I think it is great that they don't include the 4 year university.

Used to be virtually free in Calif.

http://thebackbench.blogspot.com/2007/08/tuition-at-university-of-california.html

Ronald Reagan insisted on two things upon taking office as governor of California. One was the head of Clark Kerr, president of the University of California. The second was the imposition of tuition on UC students

Key argument to note:



Will shift a greater portion of the cost of higher education to the local property tax, because of a transfer of students to community colleges.


That's where we are now....

[pragmatic]

Do you live in Tennessee?

Nope. You...??


//

[Max Rockatansky]

Telling another state what to do is one thing, but sharing a valid concern about a trend, such as increasing entitlements without a clear goal of seeing a return on taxpayer investments is another thing and a completely valid point. Ergo, state of residence or origin doesn't matter in the latter case.

Overall, I agree with low-cost assistance to qualifying high school graduates. I also agree in taxpayer funded scholarships for the gifted. Both will see a taxpayer return in high-earning jobs since a $50K/year job generates more tax revenue than a minimum wage job. Certainly more than someone on welfare or unemployment. When I took my welding night classes, out of about 9 students, there were usually 1 or 2 who were either ex-cons or unemployed.

Clearly, a state, and by extension, the taxpayers, benefit from an educated, healthy and gainfully employed citizenry.

[Green Arrow]

Telling another state what to do is one thing, but sharing a valid concern about a trend, such as increasing entitlements without a clear goal of seeing a return on taxpayer investments is another thing and a completely valid point. Ergo, state of residence or origin doesn't matter in the latter case.

Overall, I agree with low-cost assistance to qualifying high school graduates. I also agree in taxpayer funded scholarships for the gifted. Both will see a taxpayer return in high-earning jobs since a $50K/year job generates more tax revenue than a minimum wage job. Certainly more than someone on welfare or unemployment. When I took my welding night classes, out of about 9 students, there were usually 1 or 2 who were either ex-cons or unemployed.

Clearly, a state, and by extension, the taxpayers, benefit from an educated, healthy and gainfully employed citizenry.

Thus far, the cost to taxpayers is entirely voluntary, since the money is coming from Tennessee Lottery revenue.

[nathanbforrest45]

Nope. You...??


//


Yes. I live 50 miles east of Knoxville, 50 miles south of Johnson City and 50 miles west of Asheville NC.

[MrJimmyDale]

I have a 16 year old daughter in 11th grade...........I would like to see this proposal gain some traction real soon.

[Max Rockatansky]

Thus far, the cost to taxpayers is entirely voluntary, since the money is coming from Tennessee Lottery revenue.

What happens if most people realize the "poor man's tax" is stupid and stop playing? I never agreed with the idea of tying something so vital to our states and nation as a whole, education, to something as stupid as gambling on extreme long shots.

[pragmatic]

Yes. I live 50 miles east of Knoxville, 50 miles south of Johnson City and 50 miles west of Asheville NC.

Wow. Did you pick that spot because of the cool symmetrical coordinates?? Or was that just luck....??

[The Sage of Main Street]

There is no such thing as "free tuition".
That money comes from somewhere.

It's an investment America makes in its future.

Once again proving that the private sector is the same as your hated GUBMINT, its requirement that we work without pay in college is an "unfunded mandate." The Wall Street statists need the talented a lot more than the talented need to become Cash Cows for the Corpies, but we are brainwashed from childhood on that the rich create their employees' wealth and we must do whatever they command.

[Captain Obvious]

It's an investment America makes in its future.

Once again proving that the private sector is the same as your hated GUBMINT, its requirement that we work without pay in college is an "unfunded mandate." The Wall Street statists need the talented a lot more than the talented need to become Cash Cows for the Corpies, but we are brainwashed from childhood on that the rich create their employees' wealth and we must do whatever they command.

So what do you call being forced to pay for something for "your own benefit"?

That's right - Obamacare!

[The Sage of Main Street]

Either/or fallacy.

Weak.

It's worse than weak.

1. Without such weapons, we'd be conquered.
2. Self-hating High IQs willing to work without pay in college and get no share in corporate patents invented these weapons and saved America.
3. There are spinoffs from weapon-building. That's why I, a proud "homophobe," support AIDS research. It too will have spinoffs that will cure a lot of other diseases.
4. Colleges are funded by the DoD and can use the money to help develop other projects. Fund a physics professor and his students will learn things useful outside of applications to weapons technology.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Where do you like your taxes channeled, then?

Something that will pay off in the future. Then we don't have to tax; we can borrow the money because the investment will create wealth far greater than the debt. But borrowing to pay off the few suckers who will be turned on by working without pay with free tuition will not pay off.

[nathanbforrest45]

What happens if most people realize the "poor man's tax" is stupid and stop playing? I never agreed with the idea of tying something so vital to our states and nation as a whole, education, to something as stupid as gambling on extreme long shots.


State lotteries have been around since at least the early 70's and continue to thrive. Las Vegas has generated untold riches for the casino owners. People are going to gamble, why not use some of that money on something constructive?

[nathanbforrest45]

Wow. Did you pick that spot because of the cool symmetrical coordinates?? Or was that just luck....??


The lot has a nice view of the mountains and my nearest neighbor is a half mile away.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Here's the solution: Change parenting so that everybody with college talent becomes a Mama's Boy afraid to grow up. Then the few people who belong in college, who aren't the people who have been going to college these last 50 years, will gladly live like 15-year-olds until they graduate, working without pay and looking up to their mind-candy professors the way a willing boytoy looks up to a pedophile.

[nic34]

Students that do their homework do get paid. The payment is called an education.

[Green Arrow]

What happens if most people realize the "poor man's tax" is stupid and stop playing? I never agreed with the idea of tying something so vital to our states and nation as a whole, education, to something as stupid as gambling on extreme long shots.

They won't stop, because of your favorite thing: human nature.

[Max Rockatansky]

They won't stop, because of your favorite thing: human nature.

True. The people who can least afford it are milked of their money to fund the educations of those smart enough to get into college.

Man taking advantage of his fellow man is very human indeed.

[Green Arrow]

True. The people who can least afford it are milked of their money to fund the educations of those smart enough to get into college.

Man taking advantage of his fellow man is very human indeed.

Cynical and misguided, but whatever floats your boat.

[Max Rockatansky]

Cynical and misguided, but whatever floats your boat.

Cynical, maybe, but misguided? Dude, you're the one making the proposal to let the poor fund the education of middle class families.

[Green Arrow]

Cynical, maybe, but misguided? Dude, you're the one making the proposal to let the poor fund the education of middle class families.

No, because:

1) The poor aren't the only ones using the lottery, and
2) The Tennessee Promise scholarships are for all Tennesseans, regardless of income. So even if the poor were the only ones playing the lottery, they also benefit from the scholarship.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people can find a way to bitch about voluntary funding.

[Max Rockatansky]

No, because:

1) The poor aren't the only ones using the lottery, and
2) The Tennessee Promise scholarships are for all Tennesseans, regardless of income. So even if the poor were the only ones playing the lottery, they also benefit from the scholarship.

It never ceases to amaze me how some people can find a way to bitch about voluntary funding.


1) No, they aren't, but smart, educated people gamble on the stock market, not a million to one shot at the Lotto except in occasional cases as a lark. I spent less than $10 on the Lotto/scratch cards last year. You?
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jcop.20376/abstract
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bdm.588/abstract
a. http://rdwolff.com/content/lotteries-disguised-regressive-and-counterproductive-taxes

In another study, Duke University researchers in 1999 (Clotfelter et al. 1999 (http://www.springerlink.com/content/y177472646588t70/fulltext.html#CR3)) found that the more education one has the less one spends on lottery tickets: dropouts averaged $700 annually compared to college graduate’s $178; and that those from households with annual incomes below $25,000 spent an average of nearly $600 per year on lottery tickets, while those from households earning over $100,000 averaged $289; blacks spent an average of $998, while whites spent $210.

Put simply, lotteries take the most from those who can least afford it. Thus, still another study of state lotteries concluded: “We find that the implicit tax is regressive in virtually all cases.” (Clotfelter and Cook 1988 (http://www.springerlink.com/content/y177472646588t70/fulltext.html#CR2)) Instead of taxing those most able to pay (the principle of the federal income tax in the US), state leaders use lotteries to disguise a regressive tax that falls on the middle and even more on the poor.

2) True! However, I bet those scholarships have requirements like a high school degree and sufficient SAT scores.


a. http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/factsheet-education.aspx

Research indicates that children from low-SES households and communities develop academic skills more slowly compared to children from higher SES groups (Morgan, Farkas, Hillemeier, & Maczuga, 2009). Initial academic skills are correlated with the home environment, where lowliteracy environments and chronic stress negatively affect a child’s preacademic skills. The school systems in low-SES communities are often underresourced, negatively affecting students’ academic progress (Aikens & Barbarin, 2008). Inadequate education and increased dropout rates affect children’s academic achievement, perpetuating the low-SES status of the community. Improving school systems and early intervention programs may help to reduce these risk factors, and thus increased research on the correlation between SES and education is essential.

b. http://www.diversityweb.org/DiversityDemocracy/vol11no3/report.cfm

Socioeconomic status has very real effects on student access and success in higher education. Several recent reports have underscored the challenges facing low-income and working-class students, providing useful data for advocates of class-attentive policies and practices.
http://www.diversityweb.org/DiversityDemocracy/vol11no3/images/sat.jpg

[pragmatic]

The lot has a nice view of the mountains and my nearest neighbor is a half mile away.


Sweet....!!!

[Green Arrow]

1) No, they aren't, but smart, educated people gamble on the stock market, not a million to one shot at the Lotto except in occasional cases as a lark. I spent less than $10 on the Lotto/scratch cards last year. You?
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jcop.20376/abstract
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/bdm.588/abstract
a. http://rdwolff.com/content/lotteries-disguised-regressive-and-counterproductive-taxes

I spent zero.


2) True! However, I bet those scholarships have requirements like a high school degree and sufficient SAT scores.

a. http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/factsheet-education.aspx


b. http://www.diversityweb.org/DiversityDemocracy/vol11no3/report.cfm

http://www.diversityweb.org/DiversityDemocracy/vol11no3/images/sat.jpg




Just a high school diploma. That's it.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Students that do their homework do get paid. The payment is called an education.

No, that is what the talented are owed; they don't owe anything to some plutocratic parasite because your insulting, upside-down attitude enables him to freeload off talent. Second, they have nothing to pay with; going years without being able to earn an adult living is far too much to pay. Investments are required only from those with more money than they need, such as a teenage lottery winner. Getting paid 5 to 25 years down the line is not a natural incentive and no one has a right to demand it. We all benefit from the talented developing themselves; the talented don't benefit until after years of permanently damaging sacrifice. Just like some nut who thinks everybody should get equal pay, this class-biased indentured-servitude system goes against human nature. The plutocrats who force it upon us prove that they know what it really is when they don't tell their own children to work their way through college. That's why the employers have no right to demand this, but instead must pay someone to learn what they need. (If people were really educated, they would never think that "they" in the last sentence refers to "someone")

The only way your system would make any sense is if the graduates only benefited themselves and not business or the public. That would be if someone could major in Casino Gambling, for example. For all real majors, excluding self-indulgent Liberal Arts escapisms, students must be paid a salary in college or they aren't worth anything. And by the way, living like a little boy in college is so permanently damaging that I wouldn't even recommend it to a Casino Gambling major, even if there was some way that would guarantee that he would win after taking the courses.

[Max Rockatansky]

Just a high school diploma. That's it.
Which means they have to graduate high school. Ever study drop out rates in comparison to family income level? Do you want to bet 20 Lotto tickets on the answer?



http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/factsheet-education.aspx

In 2007, the high school dropout rate among persons 16- 24 years old was highest in low-income families (16.7%) as compared to high-income families (3.2%) (National Center for Education Statistics, 2008).

[Green Arrow]

Which means they have to graduate high school. Ever study drop out rates in comparison to family income level? Do you want to bet 20 Lotto tickets on the answer?



http://www.apa.org/pi/ses/resources/publications/factsheet-education.aspx

In 2007, the high school dropout rate among persons 16- 24 years old was highest in low-income families (16.7%) as compared to high-income families (3.2%) (National Center for Education Statistics, 2008).



Don't particularly care. It's not relevant.