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Chris
02-24-2014, 05:58 PM
More good news, we the people are rising up again our government, and government is in retreat.


Americans rising up against government (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/02/23/license-plates-guns-news-federal-government-column/5759933/)


America's ruling class has been experiencing more pushback than usual lately. It just might be a harbinger of things to come.

First, in response to widespread protests last week, the Department of Homeland Security canceled plans to build a nationwide license plate database. Many local police departments already use license-plate readers that track every car as it passes traffic signals or pole-mounted cameras....

..."The most plausible explanation is that someone up top at the DHS or ICE suddenly realized that publicly calling for bids on a nationwide surveillance system while nationwide surveillance systems are being hotly debated was ... a horrible idea."

On Friday, after more public outrage, the Federal Communications Commission withdrew a plan to "monitor" news coverage at not only broadcast stations, but also at print publications that the FCC has no authority to regulate. The "Multi-Market Study of Critical Information Needs," or CIN (pronounced "sin") involved the FCC sending people to question reporters and editors about why they chose to run particular stories. Many folks in and out of the media found it Orwellian.

...Meanwhile, in Connecticut a massive new gun-registration scheme is also facing civil disobedience....

This is more "Irish Democracy," passive resistance to government overreach. The Hartford (Conn.) Courant is demanding that the state use background-check records to prosecute those who haven't registered, but the state doesn't have the resources and it's doubtful juries would convict ordinary, law-abiding people for failure to file some paperwork.

Though people have taken to the streets from Egypt, to Ukraine, to Venezuela to Thailand, many have wondered whether Americans would ever resist the increasing encroachments on their freedom. I think they've begun.

Cigar
02-24-2014, 05:59 PM
http://www.lachvandedag.com/2005/januari/viagra-banaan_lachvandedag.jpg

Chris
02-24-2014, 06:04 PM
You need help getting up an argument for big government?

Cigar
02-24-2014, 06:10 PM
You need help getting up an argument for big government?

You need lube to ease the pain? :grin:

Chris
02-24-2014, 07:56 PM
Ignoring cigar's perverted distractions, let's look at some other resistance to government.


It's Not an Arab Spring; Governments Everywhere Spark Revolts (http://reason.com/archives/2014/02/23/dont-call-it-an-arab-spring-anywhere-can)


It’s the winter of their discontent from Venezuela to Ukraine to Thailand. Those countries' respective governments have all faced opposition demonstrations that in recent weeks have turned violent, seeing protesters killed in all three countries, with the death toll in Ukraine estimated at around 75 dead and more than 1,000 injured. In Venezuela, at least five have died, though based on accounts on the ground, that number too could rise. In Thailand, at least five people died and 65 were injured on Monday alone, as police worked to clear protesters from the capital city, Bangkok.

Were the unrest in three countries that were geographically or ethnically closer to each other, the Western media might have bundled them together the way they did with the “Arab Spring.” Like the current concurrent protests, of course, the Arab Spring was actually a set of disparate protests that spanned the Arab world. And while the protests ended differently: in toppled governments (Tunisia, Egypt), a Western intervention (Libya), a protracted civil war (Syria), multiple failures (Bahrain, Iraq), they did all share one general grievance, that their governments no longer represented them. Though Iraq was perhaps the only democratic (at least in name) country in which “Arab Spring” protests occurred, democratic governments are not immune to becoming so disconnected from the people in the country that protests arise there. To varying extents, Ukraine, Venezuela, and Thailand have democratically-elected governments. And in each case, those governments, rather than working to do their best to represent all people, have demonized and alienated the opposition, claiming their slim margins of victories as mandates to act in any way they please.

The root problem in each country is unaccountable government. That unaccountability, in each case, is an outgrowth of the attitude that a mere democratic majority (of the actually-voting voting population) suffices to permit the government to do anything it wants under the guise of having a popular mandate for it....

donttread
02-24-2014, 08:13 PM
More good news, we the people are rising up again our government, and government is in retreat.


Americans rising up against government (http://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2014/02/23/license-plates-guns-news-federal-government-column/5759933/)


That's right. Enough is enough already!

Codename Section
02-25-2014, 10:37 AM
I seriously do not understand the people who want big government. It's admitting you can't take care of yourself or handle your own life.

Chris
02-25-2014, 12:12 PM
I think people generally take the easy way to obtain what they want, and the easiest way is to have someone or something else do it for you, like government. Hard rights and easy wrongs.

It has to do with the nature of democracy and time preference (http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Time_preference), or let us call it the need for immediate gratification in an increasingly materialistic world.

Akula
02-26-2014, 12:55 AM
I think people generally take the easy way to obtain what they want, and the easiest way is to have someone or something else do it for you, like government. Hard rights and easy wrongs.

It has to do with the nature of democracy and time preference (http://wiki.mises.org/wiki/Time_preference), or let us call it the need for immediate gratification in an increasingly materialistic world.

..and that's just how the govt and media want it. It's "job security" for them.

patrickt
02-26-2014, 06:12 AM
I seriously do not understand the people who want big government. It's admitting you can't take care of yourself or handle your own life.

For most, it's simply the "gimmees". Some are convinced that the big government will take what you have and give it to them. And they do. From Detroit to Solyndra there are people living off the work of others. That used to be called slavery but now it's called social justice.

And, we're not close to rising up. The assault on free speech hasn't been stopped. A whistleblower in the FCC temporarily derailed one plan but others proceed and once they're dealt with the Whistleblower the newsroom occupation will continue. The DOJ was caught tapping newsroom phones and nothing happened. I'm sure they're still being tapped. The NSA was caught and nothing happened. AG Eric Holder lies, President Obama lies, IRS manager takes the fifth, and the President in a fit of pique closes the WWII memorial and...nothing happens. The Secretary of State for Benghazi is ordering curtains, at your expense, for her White House.

No, we're a long, long way from rising up. Even the Republicans dinosaurs understand that. They're not really worried, yet.

Max Rockatansky
02-26-2014, 06:30 AM
I seriously do not understand the people who want big government. It's admitting you can't take care of yourself or handle your own life.
Sadly, there is a significant portion of the nation who believe it. Another reason to reinstitute the draft; to put a little more spine in people. At least some kind of "Outward Bound" program.

Chris
02-26-2014, 08:08 AM
I seriously do not understand the people who want big government. It's admitting you can't take care of yourself or handle your own life.


Sadly, there is a significant portion of the nation who believe it. Another reason to reinstitute the draft; to put a little more spine in people. At least some kind of "Outward Bound" program.



If the problem is big government, how is even bigger government, with a draft, a solution?

I just don't get this modern American attitude of problem therefore government solution.

Cigar
02-26-2014, 08:17 AM
I seriously do not understand the people who want big government. It's admitting you can't take care of yourself or handle your own life.

I agree ... the next time Big Government and War Hawks like John McCain beat the War Drums that Millions have to pay for and hundreds of thousands have to die for, all to blame the next President ... then tell them to go stick it.

donttread
02-26-2014, 08:21 AM
Exactly. The other thing about government is it's mind boggling inefficiency . Even if big government were Constitutional, its too bureocratic to get out of its own way, much less solve problems

Chris
02-26-2014, 08:33 AM
I agree ... the next time Big Government and War Hawks like John McCain beat the War Drums that Millions have to pay for and hundreds of thousands have to die for, all to blame the next President ... then tell them to go stick it.



Obama's no different in promoting government dependence.

Max Rockatansky
02-26-2014, 08:42 AM
If the problem is big government, how is even bigger government, with a draft, a solution?

I just don't get this modern American attitude of problem therefore government solution.

You should read the Constitution more.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

We can have a national military, and even a draft, without having "big government".

Cigar
02-26-2014, 08:48 AM
Obama's no different in promoting government dependence.

Cleaning up someone else shit is expensive

Chris
02-26-2014, 08:54 AM
You should read the Constitution more.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

We can have a national military, and even a draft, without having "big government".


Uh, max, I'm familiar with the Constitution. How does that answer my question? If big government's a problem, how, with a draft, does making it even bigger solve the problem?

Chris
02-26-2014, 08:54 AM
Cleaning up someone else shit is expensive

Creating your own stink even more expensive.

nic34
02-26-2014, 09:01 AM
Remember, max, whenever chris goes on a tirade against "big government" he means ANY government.

nic34
02-26-2014, 09:02 AM
Many times there is a role for “big government,” particularly when a multi-state disaster hits. One only has to look at how fast every Republican governor gets on the phone to Washington when they’re faced with a major disaster.

Chris
02-26-2014, 09:07 AM
Remember, max, whenever chris goes on a tirade against "big government" he means ANY government.

Tirade? Where's this, nic? I asked a simple question predicated on the fact that a voluntary military reduces government power and a draft military increases it.

And you used to whine about ad hom, in fact, when was the last time, yesterday, nic? Don't whine about what you're yourself not above.

Codename Section
02-26-2014, 09:08 AM
Sadly, there is a significant portion of the nation who believe it. Another reason to reinstitute the draft; to put a little more spine in people. At least some kind of "Outward Bound" program.

I've thought about that a lot. If I were a believer in force I do think forcing men into the military would change their lives.

Chris
02-26-2014, 09:08 AM
Many times there is a role for “big government,” particularly when a multi-state disaster hits. One only has to look at how fast every Republican governor gets on the phone to Washington when they’re faced with a major disaster.



Perhaps, though you need to make the case not merely assume it. You don't accomplish that with mere partisan attacks, nic.

My complaint is with those who for every problem leap to government as solution.

patrickt
02-26-2014, 09:16 AM
President Truman's desegregation of the military combined with the draft was one of the best steps towards racial equity and peace ever taken. That's why the Democrats hated President Truman. I support a true draft for a lot of reasons. For me, it was my first honest introduction to "government".

Nic will never accept that the government is the problem and is not the solution.

Mainecoons
02-26-2014, 09:18 AM
Many times there is a role for “big government,” particularly when a multi-state disaster hits. One only has to look at how fast every Republican governor gets on the phone to Washington when they’re faced with a major disaster.

Always the partisan hack, eh Nic?

The reality is that the entire country is hooked on the money printing Federal feedback and the party label matters not at all--they all stick their hands out at any excuse.

patrickt
02-26-2014, 09:18 AM
http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Cigar http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=533683#post533683)
"Cleaning up someone else shit is expensive"

Cigar is already setting the stage for cleaning up the horrendous mess President Obama and the socialists are making.

Max Rockatansky
02-26-2014, 09:22 AM
Remember, max, whenever chris goes on a tirade against "big government" he means ANY government.

Thanks and agreed. The academic "anti-statist" crowd often seems to confuse "big government" with "any government".

When the Republicans, the Tea Party or Libertarians such as Ron Paul and his son Rand discuss the hazards and problems of "big government" most people are aware that they are not advocating "no government".


Many times there is a role for “big government,” particularly when a multi-state disaster hits. One only has to look at how fast every Republican governor gets on the phone to Washington when they’re faced with a major disaster.Also agreed. The problem isn't having a Federal government, but how that same Federal government seems to be growing like Kudzu and spending money it doesn't have.

Max Rockatansky
02-26-2014, 09:28 AM
I've thought about that a lot. If I were a believer in force I do think forcing men into the military would change their lives.

It doesn't have to be the military. It could be the Peace Corps, Americorps or, as previously mentioned, simply an "Outward Bound"-type program. Maybe tie it to a two-year college aid program as discussed on another thread.

Chris
02-26-2014, 09:34 AM
Thanks and agreed. The academic "anti-statist" crowd often seems to confuse "big government" with "any government".

When the Republicans, the Tea Party or Libertarians such as Ron Paul and his son Rand discuss the hazards and problems of "big government" most people are aware that they are not advocating "no government".

Also agreed. The problem isn't having a Federal government, but how that same Federal government seems to be growing like Kudzu and spending money it doesn't have.



Nice to see you back to making up strawmen, max.

No, big government is not any government. Why would you make such stupid academic nonsense anyway?

What I compared was draft to voluntary military. The draft implied a bigger more power government than a voluntary military. I guess in your academic rush to scholarly theory you overlooked that reality.


When the Republicans, the Tea Party or Libertarians such as Ron Paul and his son Rand discuss the hazards and problems of "big government" most people are aware that they are not advocating "no government".

Seems you and nic are the ones who are unaware for every time you see such an argument you immediately strawman big government it to some extreme no-government stance.

I see this strawmanning as a sign you cannot address what's said with any intellectual honesty.


The problem isn't having a Federal government, but how that same Federal government seems to be growing like Kudzu and spending money it doesn't have.

Oddly here you seem to see what's being argued but you pretend it is your own idea. Get your head out of the textbooks, max, pay attention to the reality of what others are actually saying.

nic34
02-26-2014, 10:02 AM
Seems you and nic are the ones who are unaware for every time you see such an argument you immediately strawman big government it to some extreme no-government stance.



Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.


Gosh, I have no idea why anyone would think that...

Chris
02-26-2014, 10:28 AM
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.


Gosh, I have no idea why anyone would think that...


Still avoiding discussion, but let's address your new topic, nic:

"For the present I should like merely to understand how it happens that so many men, so many villages, so many cities, so many nations, sometimes suffer under a single tyrant who has no other power than the power they give him; who is able to harm them only to the extent to which they have the willingness to bear with him; who could do them absolutely no injury unless they preferred to put up with him rather than contradict him. Surely a striking situation! Yet it is so common that one must grieve the more and wonder the less at the spectacle of a million men serving in wretchedness, their necks under the yoke, not constrained by a greater multitude than they, but simply, it would seem, delighted and charmed by the name of one man alone whose power they need not fear, for he is evidently the one person whose qualities they cannot admire because of his inhumanity and brutality toward them. A weakness characteristic of human kind is that we often have to obey force; we have to make concessions; we ourselves cannot always be the stronger. Therefore, when a nation is constrained by the fortune of war to serve a single clique, as happened when the city of Athens served the thirty Tyrants, one should not be amazed that the nation obeys, but simply be grieved by the situation; or rather, instead of being amazed or saddened, consider patiently the evil and look forward hopefully toward a happier future."

~ Étienne de La Boétie, Discourse on Voluntary Servitude

patrickt
02-26-2014, 12:20 PM
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.

Gosh, I have no idea why anyone would think that...

Wow, Nic, still trying to defend liberals by pretending they're just like normal people.

The Sage of Main Street
02-26-2014, 04:58 PM
Exactly. The other thing about government is its mind-boggling inefficiency . Even if big government were Constitutional, it's too bureaucratic to get out of its own way, much less solve problems


Just like Big Business. Capitalism Is Communism for the Rich.

The Sage of Main Street
02-26-2014, 05:01 PM
Government is the great fiction through which everybody endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.


..

Capitalism is the great fact through which the 1% endeavors to live at the expense of everybody else.