GMO, Pesticides, and You

[Peter1469]

GMO, Pesticides, and You (http://GMO, Pesticides, and You)

Here is a good article that discusses some of the issues with GMOs, pesticides, and their dangers.


1. Monsanto’s Roundup linked to fatal, chronic kidney disease. Article (http://www.mdpi.com/1660-4601/11/2/2125) in Journal of Environmental Research and Public Health, February 2014

2. Monsanto’s Roundup persists in soil and water. U.S. Geological Survey report (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24549493) in Environmental Toxicology and Chemistry, February 2014

3. GMO crops have led to an increase in use of pesticides and herbicides. U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) report (http://www.ers.usda.gov/publications/err-economic-research-report/err162.aspx#.Uw91xPldVh5), February 2014.

4. Pesticides are more dangerous than we thought. Article (http://www.hindawi.com/journals/bmri/2014/179691/) in BioMed Research International, February 2014

5. Small-Scale, organic farming needed to feed the world. U.N. Commission on Trade and Development (UNCTAD), Wake Up Before It Is Too Late (http://unctad.org/en/PublicationsLibrary/ditcted2012d3_en.pdf), December 2013

[donttread]

And how about the "Round up ready" crops genetically engineered to tolerate all the round up you can spray and then be eaten by you and I?

[Captain Obvious]

And pesticides have been diluted waaaaaaay back. Used to be a whole lot stronger a decade or two ago.

[Polecat]

There is too much similarity between the Monsanto flap and global warming rhetoric. I see scare tactics being lobbed around but no feasible alternatives being offered. The core issue is, and always has been, over population.

[Captain Obvious]

There is too much similarity between the Monsanto flap and global warming rhetoric. I see scare tactics being lobbed around but no feasible alternatives being offered. The core issue is, and always has been, over population.

Not to go off on a tangent, but there is that bizarre theory that we will suffer economically because our birth rate is lagging behind other developing(ed) countries.

I hear that being talked about and supported but when I ask someone to explain it to me I never get a straight answer.

[Polecat]

Not to go off on a tangent, but there is that bizarre theory that we will suffer economically because our birth rate is lagging behind other developing(ed) countries.

I hear that being talked about and supported but when I ask someone to explain it to me I never get a straight answer.

I've heard similar with regard to white Americans only. Seems everyone else is still going all bunny rabbit on it.

[Peter1469]

There is too much similarity between the Monsanto flap and global warming rhetoric. I see scare tactics being lobbed around but no feasible alternatives being offered. The core issue is, and always has been, over population.

I don't get the analogy. Anyway there are alternatives. Read the article in the OP.

[Peter1469]

The elderly will become a larger percentage of the population. This segment of the population will require economic resources to care for it. Where will that money / resources come from? The Japanese answer is robots.

Obama's answer is the red pill.


Not to go off on a tangent, but there is that bizarre theory that we will suffer economically because our birth rate is lagging behind other developing(ed) countries.

I hear that being talked about and supported but when I ask someone to explain it to me I never get a straight answer.

[Polecat]

I don't get the analogy. Anyway there are alternatives. Read the article in the OP.

The alternatives are not currently viable. Small scale organic methods can not feed the world. And in our culture the farmer would be too vulnerable to financial ruin with failed crops and end up loosing his land. The biggest issue is mono cultural plantings. This is a super magnet and incubator for pathogens. When we moved from hunter gatherer to agriculture is when this became an issue so it is deeply entrenched. The idea here is that you don't have an acre of corn or beans or any other species. The acre would somehow need to be planted with dozens of different plant types and still be manageable. Right now this (if it were even possible) would make food too expensive for the average person. Crack this nut and we have a potential solution to our current methods of mass production.

[Peter1469]

Incorrect on every count.


The alternatives are not currently viable. Small scale organic methods can not feed the world. And in our culture the farmer would be too vulnerable to financial ruin with failed crops and end up loosing his land. The biggest issue is mono cultural plantings. This is a super magnet and incubator for pathogens. When we moved from hunter gatherer to agriculture is when this became an issue so it is deeply entrenched. The idea here is that you don't have an acre of corn or beans or any other species. The acre would somehow need to be planted with dozens of different plant types and still be manageable. Right now this (if it were even possible) would make food too expensive for the average person. Crack this nut and we have a potential solution to our current methods of mass production.

[Polecat]

Incorrect on every count.

You dick! Now I have to go read all those links so I can print a retraction or make a plausible argument. I'll be back.

[Peter1469]

You dick! Now I have to go read all those links so I can print a retraction or make a plausible argument. I'll be back. Now you sound like my ex-wife. :smiley:

[Polecat]

OK, I read the articles. Except the last one of 341 pages. I can't read that fast and it is a UN publication that is heavily based on climate change. My argument will be weak but I will go ahead and throw it out there.

First I need to point out that our current agricultural practices are the result of environmental concerns that hit the front page with DDT. This insecticide was very very effective but grossly way over applied. It was applied in some cases at 1000% of what would have been needed to control the target pests. The fallout was horrendous and the chemical was banned. Then Chlordane met with the same fate and for the same reasons. Then Diazinon. And now glyphs is heading there. The primary blunder with all of these agents has been failure to understand and properly use them. The secondary blunder has been trying to replace one bad idea with another bad idea.

Round Up became over used in an effort to address the environmental issues related to run off. Used to be farmers tilled up their fields then planted. Heavy duty pesticides were then used throughout the growing season. The loose soil ran off into waterways carrying pesticides along with it. So no till becomes all the rage. This practice requires the heavy use of glyphosate. So once again we have a situation where the intent was to make an improvement for the sake of the environment and getting some wicked backlash instead. The GMO was another answer to the environmental concern of petrochemicals. It has been a dog chasing its tail for the last 50 years to get it right. So far every "fix" we have concocted has generated other problems of equal or greater magnitude.

I had my commercial applicators license in the 90s and had to learn a lot about this crap in order to get them. There are three approaches to controlling pathogens which in that industry includes weeds, insects and disease. The preferred tactic is cultural. This is the practice of selecting appropriate plants for the location and using mechanical means for remove weeds insects or diseased sections. This is organic in nature but I have a distaste for that term personally. The practice however I favor.

Next you have biological controls. This is introducing a living organism to combat a target pest. Lady bugs, preying mantis, purple martins AND Bt. were examples of this tactic. Tobacco plants grown along side vegetable gardens will draw just about every insect away from the veggies and become glued to the tobacco. I like this practice to. Although buying refrigerated lady bugs turned out to be ineffective because they come out of hibernation then migrate miles away.

Then the last resort was chemical. And in this instance I was taught that the responsible approach involved identifying the target pest and determining if they were in large enough numbers to worry about then treating with the least amount of the right chemical needed to get the needed results. This of coarse takes some effort and knowledge that quite simply is not practiced in the field. So we are back to the old paradigm of putting down too much of what ever even if there is no need.

Now for the meat & potatoes of all that rather lengthy blithering. The most effective cultural practice for a healthy lawn is to have as many different varieties of grass as possible. The 100% Kentucky Blue Grass lawn is sure a thing of beauty but to keep it looking that way you have to battle all the disease and insects that love it more than you do. It must be heavily fertilized and watered and treated with insecticides and fungicides and mowed every three days to achieve this. A multi cultured lawn looks almost as nice but needs none of the above. Reason being the pathogens are never going to thrive in it and the end result is a decent looking low maintenance lawn that is overall healthy enough to choke out weeds and stay green without being forced. This principle could work very well in food production too. The problem is our current methods of assembly line farming make it impossible. I believe there is a solution to this however and that if it is discovered organic (gawd there is that word again) farming could be much more practical.

Are you still with me? I will go on.

I share your desire to have food on the table that is not booby trapped with chemicals and micro organisms that could result in poor health or even premature death. I believe we should be spending more to this end instead of putting guys on Mars or having the worlds biggest defense budget. My concern is back at the table. I have never known starvation. Many on our planet do. I have been pretty damn hungry a few times and the specter of starvation is far more frightening than getting butt fucked by Cigar after he beats me senseless for an insensitive racial comment. Famine has always been nipping at the world's heels and a bad move (no matter how well intentioned) that led to food shortages or prices that exceeded health care would be apocalyptic. Simply, I would rather die in 20 - 30 years from tainted food than starve to death in 4 to 8 weeks of agony.

Organic farming will be a very complicated undertaking in many areas that are now very productive using "artificial measures". Poor soil, low rainfall, lack of natural amendments locally available......This is some scary shit!

Disclaimer:

Today is my birthday and I am celebrating by knocking back the last of a bottle of bourbon and smoking too many cigarettes.

[Captain Obvious]

Today is my birthday and I am celebrating by knocking back the last of a bottle of bourbon and smoking too many cigarettes.

What? No whores?

Happy birthday

[Polecat]

What? No whores?

Happy birthday

I live in a quiet neighborhood. I would have to walk two or three blocks to find a ho.

[Peter1469]

Thanks for taking the time to go through all that. Most people don't. My main issue is that I want the option for organics. I don't advocate forcing it on anyone else. But, for the reasons you read, I think it would be best for all. But who am I to say that.


OK, I read the articles. Except the last one of 341 pages. I can't read that fast and it is a UN publication that is heavily based on climate change. My argument will be weak but I will go ahead and throw it out there.

First I need to point out that our current agricultural practices are the result of environmental concerns that hit the front page with DDT. This insecticide was very very effective but grossly way over applied. It was applied in some cases at 1000% of what would have been needed to control the target pests. The fallout was horrendous and the chemical was banned. Then Chlordane met with the same fate and for the same reasons. Then Diazinon. And now glyphs is heading there. The primary blunder with all of these agents has been failure to understand and properly use them. The secondary blunder has been trying to replace one bad idea with another bad idea.

Round Up became over used in an effort to address the environmental issues related to run off. Used to be farmers tilled up their fields then planted. Heavy duty pesticides were then used throughout the growing season. The loose soil ran off into waterways carrying pesticides along with it. So no till becomes all the rage. This practice requires the heavy use of glyphosate. So once again we have a situation where the intent was to make an improvement for the sake of the environment and getting some wicked backlash instead. The GMO was another answer to the environmental concern of petrochemicals. It has been a dog chasing its tail for the last 50 years to get it right. So far every "fix" we have concocted has generated other problems of equal or greater magnitude.

I had my commercial applicators license in the 90s and had to learn a lot about this crap in order to get them. There are three approaches to controlling pathogens which in that industry includes weeds, insects and disease. The preferred tactic is cultural. This is the practice of selecting appropriate plants for the location and using mechanical means for remove weeds insects or diseased sections. This is organic in nature but I have a distaste for that term personally. The practice however I favor.

Next you have biological controls. This is introducing a living organism to combat a target pest. Lady bugs, preying mantis, purple martins AND Bt. were examples of this tactic. Tobacco plants grown along side vegetable gardens will draw just about every insect away from the veggies and become glued to the tobacco. I like this practice to. Although buying refrigerated lady bugs turned out to be ineffective because they come out of hibernation then migrate miles away.

Then the last resort was chemical. And in this instance I was taught that the responsible approach involved identifying the target pest and determining if they were in large enough numbers to worry about then treating with the least amount of the right chemical needed to get the needed results. This of coarse takes some effort and knowledge that quite simply is not practiced in the field. So we are back to the old paradigm of putting down too much of what ever even if there is no need.

Now for the meat & potatoes of all that rather lengthy blithering. The most effective cultural practice for a healthy lawn is to have as many different varieties of grass as possible. The 100% Kentucky Blue Grass lawn is sure a thing of beauty but to keep it looking that way you have to battle all the disease and insects that love it more than you do. It must be heavily fertilized and watered and treated with insecticides and fungicides and mowed every three days to achieve this. A multi cultured lawn looks almost as nice but needs none of the above. Reason being the pathogens are never going to thrive in it and the end result is a decent looking low maintenance lawn that is overall healthy enough to choke out weeds and stay green without being forced. This principle could work very well in food production too. The problem is our current methods of assembly line farming make it impossible. I believe there is a solution to this however and that if it is discovered organic (gawd there is that word again) farming could be much more practical.

Are you still with me? I will go on.

I share your desire to have food on the table that is not booby trapped with chemicals and micro organisms that could result in poor health or even premature death. I believe we should be spending more to this end instead of putting guys on Mars or having the worlds biggest defense budget. My concern is back at the table. I have never known starvation. Many on our planet do. I have been pretty damn hungry a few times and the specter of starvation is far more frightening than getting butt fucked by Cigar after he beats me senseless for an insensitive racial comment. Famine has always been nipping at the world's heels and a bad move (no matter how well intentioned) that led to food shortages or prices that exceeded health care would be apocalyptic. Simply, I would rather die in 20 - 30 years from tainted food than starve to death in 4 to 8 weeks of agony.

Organic farming will be a very complicated undertaking in many areas that are now very productive using "artificial measures". Poor soil, low rainfall, lack of natural amendments locally available......This is some scary shit!

Disclaimer:

Today is my birthday and I am celebrating by knocking back the last of a bottle of bourbon and smoking too many cigarettes.

[Peter1469]

I live in a quiet neighborhood. I would have to walk two or three blocks to find a ho.

Good luck.

[Polecat]

Thanks for taking the time to go through all that. Most people don't. My main issue is that I want the option for organics. I don't advocate forcing it on anyone else. But, for the reasons you read, I think it would be best for all. But who am I to say that.

Well I fully agree with you on that note. I just worry about public opinion causing drastic reactions that result in a food crisis.

[Peter1469]

Well I fully agree with you on that note. I just worry about public opinion causing drastic reactions that result in a food crisis.

As long as I can have access to the food I want, I could care less what others eat. I will pay more. No problem.

[Polecat]

As long as I can have access to the food I want, I could care less what others eat. I will pay more. No problem.

Sadly there are too many that will not have that option. I am one of them.

[Peter1469]

Sadly there are too many that will not have that option. I am one of them.

I will share.

[Polecat]

I will share.

You're a good man. I eat a lot by the way.

[Peter1469]

You're a good man. I eat a lot by the way.
I will stock up then. :smiley:

[donttread]

There is too much similarity between the Monsanto flap and global warming rhetoric. I see scare tactics being lobbed around but no feasible alternatives being offered. The core issue is, and always has been, over population.

Localized food economies. How much sense does it make for a world concerned with fossil fuel usage to move daily staples hundreds and thousands of miles.

[Captain Obvious]

Localized food economies. How much sense does it make for a world concerned with fossil fuel usage to move daily staples hundreds and thousands of miles.

Totally agree and this concept can be applied to other areas as well, not just agriculture.

Production, manufacturing, service industry. They can all be local but economies of scale and other factors like broad regulation and the Walmartization of our economy/culture go against that grain.

Just face it, we're becoming the Borg.

[Polecat]

There are many food items we enjoy that come from a far. Our diet would need to change to something less varied. Say something like 1950s CCCP diet. Mmmm potatoes and beets again.

[Peter1469]

There are many food items we enjoy that come from a far. Our diet would need to change to something less varied. Say something like 1950s CCCP diet. Mmmm potatoes and beets again.

I get most of my food from a farmers market that uses locally grown food. I adjust according to the seasons.

[Polecat]

No bananas, OJ, coffee, chocolate? There is a lot of staples that can't be produced locally. Wheat doesn't grow well in the tropics. There is a need for trade.

[bladimz]

This isn't the key to the future of organic foods, but i thought (and still think) that this is a clever idea. It allows for the growth and maintenance of organic foods on site, made available to grocery stores without any transporting whatsoever...

http://goo.gl/tX1Nwf (http://www.popularresistance.org/supermarkets-with-organic-rooftop-gardens/)

6205

Opening this month in Brooklyn, NY: Gowanus market selling food from it’s huge organic rooftop garden

Whole Foods has announced that it will be opening its long-awaited Gowanus store on December 17th this year. In addition to putting the usual organic and artisan products on it shelves, the new location at 214 3rd Street will bring the local food trend to new heights with a 20,000 square foot rooftop farm right on top of the building. It doesn’t get more local than that.

[Polecat]

Roof top gardens are a win win in the urban setting. Good start.

[Peter1469]

No bananas, OJ, coffee, chocolate? There is a lot of staples that can't be produced locally. Wheat doesn't grow well in the tropics. There is a need for trade. I agree. But the majority of stuff that I get is local.

[bladimz]

Chocolate? I live an hour's drive from Hershey, PA. The whole friggin' town is made of chocolate.

[Peter1469]

Chocolate? I live an hour's drive from Hershey, PA. The whole friggin' town is made of chocolate. That is milk chocolate. Not real chocolate.

[donttread]

I agree. But the majority of stuff that I get is local.


There are fruits and veggies suited for almost any environment, which is how mankind survived for 99% of his time on earth. And wheat is severely over used

[Peter1469]

There are fruits and veggies suited for almost any environment, which is how mankind survived for 99% of his time on earth. And wheat is severely over used

I rarely eat it.

[Ravi]

No bananas, OJ, coffee, chocolate? There is a lot of staples that can't be produced locally. Wheat doesn't grow well in the tropics. There is a need for trade.
I wouldn't call those staples but for marketing. Regardless, why must they be gmo?

[Ravi]

I rarely eat it.i don't remember if I shared this before, but I think you would enjoy this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Eating-Wild-Side-Missing-Optimum/dp/0316227943

[Peter1469]

Thanks!


i don't remember if I shared this before, but I think you would enjoy this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Eating-Wild-Side-Missing-Optimum/dp/0316227943

[donttread]

i don't remember if I shared this before, but I think you would enjoy this book.

http://www.amazon.com/Eating-Wild-Side-Missing-Optimum/dp/0316227943

That looks great, I think I'll order it. I grow sunchokes in my back yard with little tending