How Bad Directions (And A Sandwich) Started World War I

[Captain Obvious]

If anyone's interested:

http://www.npr.org/2014/03/06/285893848/how-bad-directions-and-a-sandwich-started-world-war-i

[Mister D]

Yeah, that's a pretty cool factoid I've mentioned before. It goes to show you how much of a role chance plays in history. Princip had given up and was just leaving the shop when the Duke passed by.

[Peter1469]

Counties took alliances too seriously and went to war over a petty issue.... And then waged a war where offensive tactics were far behind defensive tactics. The generals of the era should have been court-martialed and dismissed from the service for their incompetence.

[Mister D]

Counties took alliances too seriously and went to war over a petty issue.... And then waged a war where offensive tactics were far behind defensive tactics. The generals of the era should have been court-martialed and dismissed from the service for their incompetence.

We disagree on the generals/tactics but we've discussed that more than once. Europe managed to avoid war several times before the assassination (e.g. 1911 Moroccan Crisis) but, like I said above, people tend to ignore the roles played by change, the actions of individuals, and just downright bad luck.

[Mister D]

I meant chance not "change". :smiley:

[Peter1469]

We disagree on the generals/tactics but we've discussed that more than once. Europe managed to avoid war several times before the assassination (e.g. 1911 Moroccan Crisis) but, like I said above, people tend to ignore the roles played by change, the actions of individuals, and just downright bad luck.

Yes we do disagree on the tactics. I served as an infantryman in combat and know stupid when I see it. So that may give me a different perspective than you have.

[Mister D]

Yes we do disagree on the tactics. I served as an infantryman in combat and know stupid when I see it. So that may give me a different perspective than you have.

Easy for you to say. No one faced the challenges and obstacles faced by WW1 commanders before or since.

[Peter1469]

Easy for you to say. No one faced the challenges and obstacles faced by WW1 commanders before or since.

And they should have realized that and adapted. Yet they said stuff like it takes 80,000 KIA to make a brigadier general.

[Mister D]

And they should have realized that and adapted. Yet they said stuff like it takes 80,000 KIA to make a brigadier general.

They did. France alone sacked 70 plus generals after the first campaign. Yes, there were poor commnaders in WW1. There were poor commanders in WW2. There are poor commanders in almost every war. I just think the men who fought the First World War get too much criticism considering their circumstances.

Also, don't forget that military deaths in WW1 were a fraction of what they were in WW2. Around 1/3. I haven't done the math to see how it really looks in terms of total number engaged but apparently WW2 was quiter a slaughter.

[Germanicus]

What was that terrorist group called again?

It is a little retarded to reduce the start of WW1 to that trigger.

Plus, there is a whole heap of stuff leading up to WW1 starting.

Read Mein Kampf and that may give you a better understanding than listening to Peter.. (:

[Mister D]

What was that terrorist group called again?

It is a little retarded to reduce the start of WW1 to that trigger.

Plus, there is a whole heap of stuff leading up to WW1 starting.

Read Mein Kampf and that may give you a better understanding than listening to Peter.. (:

Black Hand, I believe.

[Green Arrow]

I personally love musing the "what ifs" of history. For example, what if we had been successful at convincing the rest of the Allies not to levy reparations and the draconian rules (like no military) they implemented on Germany? It was those reparations (combined with the natural effects of war) that all but destroyed the German economy and led to the rise of Hitler.

I often wonder...what if, instead of forcing them to take sole blame and pay reparations, we helped them rebuild their nation? Would Hitler have ever stood a chance getting elected and doing what we did? I don't think so.

[KC]

I personally love musing the "what ifs" of history. For example, what if we had been successful at convincing the rest of the Allies not to levy reparations and the draconian rules (like no military) they implemented on Germany? It was those reparations (combined with the natural effects of war) that all but destroyed the German economy and led to the rise of Hitler.

I often wonder...what if, instead of forcing them to take sole blame and pay reparations, we helped them rebuild their nation? Would Hitler have ever stood a chance getting elected and doing what we did? I don't think so.

Or what if Hitler had never been hired by the Weimar government to spy on the NSDAP. They might still be barely remembered as a negligible nationalist party.

[Green Arrow]

Or what if Hitler had never been hired by the Weimar government to spy on the NSDAP. They might still be barely remembered as a negligible nationalist party.

What if Operation Valkyrie had been a success?

[Bob]

Yes we do disagree on the tactics. I served as an infantryman in combat and know stupid when I see it. So that may give me a different perspective than you have.

I can see how you probably are a better officer for having been an EM than say it came from ROTC. Clearly it would depend on the ROTC student and teachers but if the ROTC student had a certain bad attitude, he might take it with him to the duty station.

I was in the California Cadet Corps during my freshman and sophomore years in high school so when I went into the Army, I had some training behind me. It made it easier.

When I was inducted and bussed to Ft. Ord, in a few days, we were picked up and taken to training companies. The Company commander had a list of names called off and my name was among them.

I learned at the meeting that I and 4 others were suddenly now the platoon Sgt of our training platoons. The actual platoon sgts operated as platoon leaders. We were issued black armbands with the rank of Sgt. We of course were not paid for that grade.

During training, at a meeting of the company, papers were passed out and we were supposed to rate who we saw as leaders.

Well, it resulted in me getting orders to attend the leadership academy at Monterey, CA.

This led to having the same job in AIT.

It is too bad that more guys did not get to have those experiences.

[KC]

What if Operation Valkyrie had been a success?

What if Operation Barbarossa had been implemented on time? Or better yet, what if Italy wasn't the worst ally a country could ask for?

[Mister D]

What if Operation Barbarossa had been implemented on time? Or better yet, what if Italy wasn't the worst ally a country could ask for?

In fairness to Italy, she was pulled into a war she was not ready for.

I also find Hitler's intense loyalty to Mussolini interesting. He knew his plans for Germany would have been nipped in the bud had it not been for Mussolini's go ahead for the Anschluss.

[Mister D]

I personally love musing the "what ifs" of history. For example, what if we had been successful at convincing the rest of the Allies not to levy reparations and the draconian rules (like no military) they implemented on Germany? It was those reparations (combined with the natural effects of war) that all but destroyed the German economy and led to the rise of Hitler.

I often wonder...what if, instead of forcing them to take sole blame and pay reparations, we helped them rebuild their nation? Would Hitler have ever stood a chance getting elected and doing what we did? I don't think so.

What if Germany had won the First World War?

[Green Arrow]

What if Germany had won the First World War?

Ohoho, that's a fun one :tongue:

[Mister D]

Ohoho, that's a fun one :tongue:

IMO, it would have better for whites. Sorry, this PC is giving me trouble. Had to be blunt. :smiley:

[Green Arrow]

IMO, it would have better for whites. Sorry, this PC is giving me trouble. Had to be blunt. :smiley:

I actually agree with you.

[Peter1469]

It was funny when many of my troops would call me sergeant rather than sir. And then they would get scared that I would be pissed. :smiley:

I prefer that rank still today.


I can see how you probably are a better officer for having been an EM than say it came from ROTC. Clearly it would depend on the ROTC student and teachers but if the ROTC student had a certain bad attitude, he might take it with him to the duty station.

I was in the California Cadet Corps during my freshman and sophomore years in high school so when I went into the Army, I had some training behind me. It made it easier.

When I was inducted and bussed to Ft. Ord, in a few days, we were picked up and taken to training companies. The Company commander had a list of names called off and my name was among them.

I learned at the meeting that I and 4 others were suddenly now the platoon Sgt of our training platoons. The actual platoon sgts operated as platoon leaders. We were issued black armbands with the rank of Sgt. We of course were not paid for that grade.

During training, at a meeting of the company, papers were passed out and we were supposed to rate who we saw as leaders.

Well, it resulted in me getting orders to attend the leadership academy at Monterey, CA.

This led to having the same job in AIT.

It is too bad that more guys did not get to have those experiences.