How Women Are Portrayed in Video Games -- And Why

[IMPress Polly]

Some of my readers may remember from back when I highlighted the decision of a growing number of Swedish cinemas to introduce gender ratings for films (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/06/swedish-cinemas-bechdel-test-films-gender-bias) that such decisions were taken in view of systemic institutional discrimination against women. For example, as of 2011, only 11% of all Hollywood productions had female protagonists. Sounds pretty bad, right? Well the world of gaming (which is one I love, incidentally) is quite a bit worse even than that. For example, only 4% of modern video games have female lead characters, which compares negatively even to Hollywood’s pitiful 11%. The online-only film posted below dissects an array of ways in which women are typically cast in video games, showing the remarkable consistency of certain trends over the decades while revealing the various ways in which these trends are evolving in some cases but more broadly actually devolving (as in getting worse, not better).

Despite stereotypes about video gaming being for guys, I’m hardly alone in my enjoyment of the hobby: 47% of all American gamers today are female. But this fact makes the poor way women are portrayed in video games all the more meaningful and important to address, as whole generations of girls and women are digesting this stuff now.

Damsel in Distress, Part One:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q


Damsel in Distress, Part Two:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_vH6xGqs


Damsel in Distress, Part Three:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjImnqH_KwM


Bonus: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games - The Ms. Male Character

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqYLfm1rWA

But now that we see that there most certainly is a problem of industrial scale here, the next question is why. I think that question was best answered by this article (http://www.polygon.com/2012/11/28/3699422/sexism-gaming-twitter-discussion-1reasonwhy) about a massive Twitter conversation that broke out in late 2012 when a Kickstarter games project specialist asked “Why are there so few lady game creators?” His question reveals what I believe to be a core part of the essential problem: that the industry itself is almost entirely male, by which I mean even more so than that U.S. military! According to a recent survey, less than 11.5% of American game industry workers are female and the percentage who are executives is much smaller even than that! Such a situation comes with a certain type of culture that will sound familiar to people with experience in heavily male-dominated institutions. Here are just a handful of the torrential outpouring of answers the aforementioned guy received from women with experience in the industry:

Brenda Romero: “Because E3 conveniently and quietly got rid of its 2006 policy against hypersexualized models on the show floor.”

Laralyn McWilliams: “Because you have to worry when you make even one game for women or kids, that you have now lost any credibility in “real” games.”

Caryn Vaino: “Because I’m constantly told by my fellow devs that mostly guys buy games, so there’s no reason to appeal to women.”

“I got blank stares when I asked why a female soldier in a game I worked on looked like a porn star”, Caryn wrote in another tweet.

Elizabeth: “Every post-release positive review I’ve seen of games I’ve designed/published has couched praise for it/me in sexual innuendo.”

Others wrote that they were afraid to even complain about sexual harassment for fear that it would prevent them from being hired in the future; the symptom of an institution wherein harassment is the rule rather than the exception.

From all this one gathers that the industry overwhelmingly sees women as decoration, not contributors to be taken seriously or appealed to in any way. Until that changes, I don’t think we’re likely to see women cast in a lot of different, non-stereotypical roles in games. Let me suggest also that a more gender-balanced workforce and management would probably tend to yield fewer titles revolving around, as Jane McGonigal (author of the bestselling book Reality is Broken), “war, cowboys, football, and cars” and more titles that appeal at least to the more commonplace interests of women and children.

[Alyosha]

IMPress Polly

I don't really play these types of games so I wouldn't know. I play Dragon Age and Skyrim type. I can do everything a male can do in the games.

[Kabuki Joe]

Some of my readers may remember from back when I highlighted the decision of a growing number of Swedish cinemas to introduce gender ratings for films (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/nov/06/swedish-cinemas-bechdel-test-films-gender-bias) that such decisions were taken in view of systemic institutional discrimination against women. For example, as of 2011, only 11% of all Hollywood productions had female protagonists. Sounds pretty bad, right? Well the world of gaming (which is one I love, incidentally) is quite a bit worse even than that. For example, only 4% of modern video games have female lead characters, which compares negatively even to Hollywood’s pitiful 11%. The online-only film posted below dissects an array of ways in which women are typically cast in video games, showing the remarkable consistency of certain trends over the decades while revealing the various ways in which these trends are evolving in some cases but more broadly actually devolving (as in getting worse, not better).

Despite stereotypes about video gaming being for guys, I’m hardly alone in my enjoyment of the hobby: 47% of all American gamers today are female. But this fact makes the poor way women are portrayed in video games all the more meaningful and important to address, as whole generations of girls and women are digesting this stuff now.

Damsel in Distress, Part One:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6p5AZp7r_Q


Damsel in Distress, Part Two:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toa_vH6xGqs


Damsel in Distress, Part Three:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LjImnqH_KwM


Bonus: Tropes vs. Women in Video Games - The Ms. Male Character

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eYqYLfm1rWA

But now that we see that there most certainly is a problem of industrial scale here, the next question is why. I think that question was best answered by this article (http://www.polygon.com/2012/11/28/3699422/sexism-gaming-twitter-discussion-1reasonwhy) about a massive Twitter conversation that broke out in late 2012 when a Kickstarter games project specialist asked “Why are there so few lady game creators?” His question reveals what I believe to be a core part of the essential problem: that the industry itself is almost entirely male, by which I mean even more so than that U.S. military! According to a recent survey, less than 11.5% of American game industry workers are female and the percentage who are executives is much smaller even than that! Such a situation comes with a certain type of culture that will sound familiar to people with experience in heavily male-dominated institutions. Here are just a handful of the torrential outpouring of answers the aforementioned guy received from women with experience in the industry:

Brenda Romero: “Because E3 conveniently and quietly got rid of its 2006 policy against hypersexualized models on the show floor.”

Laralyn McWilliams: “Because you have to worry when you make even one game for women or kids, that you have now lost any credibility in “real” games.”

Caryn Vaino: “Because I’m constantly told by my fellow devs that mostly guys buy games, so there’s no reason to appeal to women.”

“I got blank stares when I asked when I asked why a female soldier in a game I worked on looked like a porn star”, Caryn wrote in another tweet.

Elizabeth: “Every post-release positive review I’ve seen of games I’ve designed/published has couched praise for it/me in sexual innuendo.”

Others wrote that they were afraid to even complain about sexual harassment for fear that it would prevent them from being hired in the future; the symptom of an institution wherein harassment is the rule rather than the exception.

From all this one gathers that the industry overwhelmingly sees women as decoration, not contributors to be taken seriously or appealed to in any way. Until that changes, I don’t think we’re likely to see women cast in a lot of different, non-stereotypical roles in games. Let me suggest also that a more gender-balanced workforce and management would probably tend to yield fewer titles revolving around, as Jane McGonigal (author of the bestselling book Reality is Broken), “war, cowboys, football, and cars” and more titles that appeal at least to the more commonplace interests of women and children.



...sorry, but I couldn't get past this..."some of my readers"...LOLOLOLOL...this is a forum, not a publication...

[The Xl]

Seeing as how many games are shooting/action titles, not to mention, sports titles, it's probably difficult to have a female main character.

[Peter1469]

@IMPress Polly (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=399)

I really only play Civilization (III Conquests) and sometimes the Rome Total War Series. Loved Mechwarrior*, but it isn't supported with Windows 7 :sad:. Not really any characters in those for gender roles.

* At the NCO club on Ft. Bragg, there is the arcade version of Mechwarrior, it moves on its base to simulate the scenario- to include getting hit by enemy laser fire and missiles. I got high score the first time I played (or maybe second), because of my extensive us of the PC version.

[Mister D]

Females need to make more video games.

[Germanicus]

...sorry, but I couldn't get past this..."some of my readers"...LOLOLOLOL...this is a forum, not a publication...

I am a reader. An avid one.

edit- IMPressPolly stuff is the best. And I am one of her readers.

[Mister D]

Also, what is "systemic institutional discrimination against women"? We're talking about video games made by private persons/companies.

[Germanicus]

Im kinda surpised that after Tomb Raider the percentage of female characters in games hasnt gotten much higher than it is. And I cant think of a good Miss Pacman joke.

[Germanicus]

I am a reader. Thats kinda hot when you think about it you know.

(:

[Dr. Who]

Perhaps some women need to get together and form their own design house and turn out the kind of games that are more gender balanced.

[Mister D]

Perhaps some women need to get together and form their own design house and turn out the kind of games that are more gender balanced.

Exactly.

[Kabuki Joe]

Perhaps some women need to get together and form their own design house and turn out the kind of games that are more gender balanced.


...sex, not gender, sex not gender...

[Dr. Who]

...sex, not gender, sex not gender...

Why?

[Kabuki Joe]

Why?


...because gender is mental, sex is physical...gender is how you think (masculine or feminine) and sex is what kind of plumbing you have (male or female)...and yes, there are exceptions, but as a rule gender and biological sex are mutually exclusive...

[Dr. Who]

...because gender is mental, sex is physical...gender is how you think (masculine or feminine) and sex is what kind of plumbing you have (male or female)...and yes, there are exceptions, but as a rule gender and biological sex are mutually exclusive...


Gender is the range of physical, biological, mental and behavioral characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, masculinity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masculinity) and femininity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Femininity).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-udry-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-haig-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-Monash-3) Depending on the context, the term may refer to biological sex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex) (i.e. the state of being male, female or intersex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex)), sex-based social structures (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_structure) (including gender roles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role) and other social roles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Role)), or gender identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-udry-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-haig-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-Monash-3)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-www.who.int-4)

Sexologist John Money (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Money) introduced the terminological distinction between biological sex and gender as a role (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction) in 1955. Before his work, it was uncommon to use the word gender to refer to anything but grammatical categories (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_gender).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-udry-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-haig-2) However, Money's meaning of the word did not become widespread until the 1970s, when feminist theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminist_theory) embraced the concept of a distinction between biological sex and the social construct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construct) of gender. Today, the distinction is strictly followed in some contexts, especially the social sciences[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-socialsciencedictionary-5)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-pearsonhighered-6) and documents written by the World Health Organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization) (WHO).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-www.who.int-4) In many other contexts, however, even in some areas of social sciences, the meaning of gender has undergone a usage shift to include sex or even to replace the latter word.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-udry-1)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-haig-2) Although this gradual change in the meaning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semantic_change) of gender can be traced to the 1980s, a small acceleration of the process in the scientific literature was observed when, in 1993, the Food and Drug Administration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_and_Drug_Administration) started to use gender instead of sex.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-7) Gender is now commonly used even to refer to the physiology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physiology) of non-human animals, without any implication of social gender roles.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender#cite_note-haig-2) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

[Alyosha]

I truly don't see it. I also don't play the types of games she's referring to. I dare say they are "male" games. I play fantasy oriented and the women kick ass in them.

[The Xl]

For what it's worth, some of my favorite games have females as the main character, or at least, co-main. Lyn from Fire Emblem, Aeris from FF7, Terra from FF6, etc.

They're out there. Just seek those games if it's that important to you, I guess.

[Kabuki Joe]

"Sex is annotated as different from gender in the Oxford English Dictionary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary), where it says sex "tends now to refer to biological differences".[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction#cite_note-5) The World Health Organization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Health_Organization) (WHO) similarly states that "'[s]ex' refers to the biological and physiological characteristics that define men and women" and that "'[m]ale' and 'female' are sex categories".[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction#cite_note-WHO-6) The American Heritage Dictionary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_American_Heritage_Dictionary_of_the_English_La nguage) (5th ed.), however, lists sex as both "Either of the two divisions, designated female and male, by which most organisms are classified on the basis of their reproductive organs and functions" and "One's identity as either female or male," among other definitions.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction#cite_note-ahdictionary.com.2C_5th_ed-7)"


"In the Oxford English Dictionary, gender is defined as, "n mod. (esp. feminist) use, a euphemism for the sex of a human being, often intended to emphasize the social and cultural, as opposed to the biological, distinctions between the sexes.", with the earliest example cited being from 1963.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction#cite_note-19) The American Heritage Dictionary (5th ed.), in addition to defining gender the same way that it defines biological sex, also states that gender may be defined by identity as "neither entirely female nor entirely male"; its Usage Note adds:

***Some people maintain that the word sex should be reserved for reference to the biological aspects of being male or female or to sexual activity, and that the word gender should be used only to refer to sociocultural roles. Accordingly, one would say [I]The effectiveness of the treatment appears to depend on the sex of the patient and In society, gender roles are clearly defined. In some situations this distinction avoids ambiguity, as in gender research, which is clear in a way that sex research is not. The distinction can be problematic, however. Linguistically, there isn't any real difference between gender bias and sex bias, and it may seem contrived to insist that sex is incorrect in this instance.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_gender_distinction#cite_note-ahdictionary.com.2C_5th_ed-7)"***

[GrassrootsConservative]

Someone has a confirmation bias problem, and sees "sexism" everywhere.

Go play Tombraider.
Go play Ultraviolet.
Go play Aeon Flux.
Go play any game where you can choose your gender in the beginning.

The problem isn't the industry, the problem is the games you are playing.

Do you subconsciously only pick games with men on them to fit your political agenda? It certainly looks that way.

[IMPress Polly]

Alyosha wrote:
I don't really play these types of games so I wouldn't know. I play Dragon Age and Skyrim type. I can do everything a male can do in the games.

Well as the film points out, there really is no equitable genre. There are some that women tend to prefer playing more than others (which the industry doesn't seem to consider "real games"), but even here we must differentiate between where public opinion stands amongst women at a particular point and what equality more objectively looks like. Although I'd certainly like to see the production of more RPGs, adventure games, and plot-driven titles in general (of whatever genre), the bigger picture here is that every genre needs to reform the way it typically represents women, including the likes of RPGs, adventure games, and plot-driven titles in general. I like RPGs a lot, but even therein one will typically find certain gender roles to be the rule. For example, there are typically fewer female characters than male characters, they're almost never the main protagonist leading the team, and more often than not their primary function in battle is the role of healer. There are exceptions (including one I'll be purchasing next month), but that's the rule.

Over the decades, I have amassed a library of many hundreds of games. The number with female protagonists though is still less than 30: under 5% of even my total.

As to what games I like that star girls and women, I was actually thinking maybe of doing a thread on that sometime (maybe), but as things currently stand, here are my top 10 favorite games that star girls:

1) Okami (PlayStation 3)
2) Beyond Good and Evil (Nintendo Game Cube)
3) Wonder Project J2 (Nintendo 64)
4) Portal 2 (PlayStation 3)
5) Lost Kingdoms (Nintendo Game Cube)
6) Portal (PlayStation 3)
7) Lost Kingdoms II (Nintendo Game Cube)
8) Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble (Super NES)
9) Mischief Makers (Nintendo 64)
10) The Great Giana Sisters (Commodore 64)

To judge from what I know of the title though so far, there's a good chance I'll wind up revising those top 10 favorites soon to include the upcoming RPG Child of Light.


Germanicus wrote:
Im kinda surpised that after Tomb Raider the percentage of female characters in games hasnt gotten much higher than it is. And I cant think of a good Miss Pacman joke.

The original Tomb Raider games did make a difference back in the day! The original Tomb Raider games proved immensely popular and Lara Croft indeed remains the most successful and well-known video game heroine of all time. After the first Tomb Raiders proved so successful, there was a qualitative leap in the number of games starring women that got produced, which lasted for about a decade. Lara's traditionally been a little bit too cliche a character for me, though I do like (and certainly prefer) her new, de-sexualized incarnation from recent years, but still can't help noticing the chauvinist attitude behind said makeover (http://kotaku.com/5917400/youll-want-to-protect-the-new-less-curvy-lara-croft). As you can see, the developers still just presume that the player will be male. I mean, you know, like they say, who would try to relate to such a Katniss-esque character? :wink:

Precisely because of Lara's success as a character, there has long been a raging debate of whether she's more essentially a symbol of female empowerment or just another vessel for male titillation. The fact that the original titles touched off a sort of low-level feminist movement within the gaming industry to me suggests the former to have been more essentially the case. It was part of a larger decade-long feminist wave that was happening in the media more generally throughout that era. We seem to have entered into another such wave in recent years, though video games are not as participant in this one as yet.

[Captain Obvious]

Aren't all or most for that matter video game characters an exaggeration of reality to a degree?

They're video games - who wants to play "Soccer Mom II" or "9-5 Business Casual"?

[junie]

i'm totally clueless when it comes to video games but just to contribute to your thread, polly...

it occurred to me i had linked to a relevant article the other day in a different thread about a women's ice hockey player who made it to the NHL.





Ice Princess – Changing The Virtual Hockey Genre

Lexi Peters, 14 of Buffalo, feels slighted that her gender isn’t represented in sports games. Her father encouraged her to write a letter to game publisher Electronic Arts.

Now the 4-foot-eleven hockey player of 4 years will star in their NHL Franchise game showing that this one’s for the girls.

In her letter, she wrote: “It is unfair to women and girl hockey players around the world, many of them who play and enjoy your game. I have created a character of myself, except I have to be represented by a male and that’s not fun.”

She continued, “My younger brother got to create a character that looked just like him. I had never been able to experience that.”
After weeks of no response, Peters accepted that she would have to play as the male characters and give them ‘hockey hair’ as she calls it. When she finally heard back, the news was bad.

“I heard back a few weeks later and they told me it couldn’t happen because it has to go through the NHL,” she said. While the NHL may not approve of women players, EA heard the plight.

“Lexi’s letter was a wake-up call,” David Littman, Lead Producer told the Globe and Mail. “Here’s a growing audience playing our NHL game and we hadn’t done anything to capture them.”

He told Peters that not only would there be female players in future editions of their NHL games, but she would be the model for the default character.



http://www.pop-gamer.com/2011/09/ice-princess/

[Mister D]

Women are so oppressed in the west. That this brave girl stood up for her rights is inspiring.

[junie]

lol @ diner dash! :f_doh:



Top Ten Video Games for Girls

1. Nancy Drew Mystery Games From Her Interactive (http://herinteractive.com/index.php) - as if the name of the company does not say it all, Nancy Drew games are fun, engaging, good for the brain, and just plain fun to play. There are 23 games in the series currently and each and every one offers a different type of puzzle fueled gameplay with excellent graphics. You can buy online or in many retail stores.

2. Farm Frenzy From Big Fish Games (http://www.bigfishgames.com) - the Farm Frenzy games are great for girls and guys of all ages but the female lead character is sure to draw in girls. The fast paced game will have any player moving quickly to complete the challenging levels. There are several versions of the Farm Frenzy game and all offer a variety of different challenges. You can buy online or at many retail stores.
3. The Sims (http://thesims.ea.com/) - While this game is ideal for just about anyone that wants to control the lives of imaginary people it is particularly great for girls in that they have the ability to design Sims and homes just about any way that they can imagine. You can buy online or in just about any retail store. There are also multiple expansion packs that you can purchase to fit the interests of just about anyone.
4. Nanny Mania from Big Fish Games (http://www.bigfishgames.com) - this game will appeal to those girls that have a sense of mothering to them. This game is a fast paced level game that allows the player to travel through the day of a nanny in a hectic household. The graphics are not all that detailed but it is a game that you can easily get drawn into. You can buy online or in stores like Walmart.
5. Diner Dash (http://www.bigfishgames.com/download-games/genres/102/diner-dash.html?channel=sem&identifier=usgooglsdinrd&WT.srch=1&v1=5576661862&v2=diner dash&v3=e&v6=g&v7=&gclid=COj3yfKs1qUCFQ687Qodl2XHlQ) - this game is great because it features a female heroine, Flo, who sweeps through multiple levels to save her diner, to serve people on a cruise ship, and many more scenarios that are specific to different games that are part of the Diner Dash franchise. You can purchase online or in most retail stores.
6. Viva Piñata (http://www.vivapinata.com/) - this game is incredibly addictive. The user spends their time to create a garden that is filled with different piñata pals. This game can be played on multiple gaming platforms like Wii or Xbox.
7. Virtual Villagers (http://www.virtualvillagers.com/) - players are faced with a variety of tasks in an effort to grow their village and obtain special rewards for their villagers. The game is highly addictive and is great for any children that like to build societies.
8. Cooking Academy (http://www.bigfishgames.com/download-games/3168/cooking-academy/index.html) - this game is great for any little girl or boy that loves to cook or hope to someday become a chef. With realistic game play that allows players to prepare complicated dishes, this game is great for experienced cooks or first time users.
9. Mystery Case Files (http://www.mysterycasefiles.com/) - like the other games mentioned there are several different installments of this seek and find game. While it is good for both boys and girls it is particularly good for girls because it does not have any gross or creepy crawly aspects.
10. The Littlest Pet Shop (http://www.hasbro.com/littlestpetshop/en_US/) - This game is especially great for young girls that like pets but may or may not have any of their own. This game has great graphics and even has an online component and is great on the Nintendo DS.

[Paperback Writer]

junie

do you believe that girls dislike those games? You don't think they have the option of choosing boys games and don't?

[junie]

i remember my brother use to play zelda all the time...i think she was some sort of princess who needed to be saved, though. :dontknow:

[Mister D]

Obviously, Diner Dash was designed by a Patriarchal cabal in collusion with the Freemasons to subtley enforce gender roles.

[Mister D]

i remember my brother use to play zelda all the time...i think she was some sort of princess who needed to be saved, though. :dontknow:

The hero's sex was a little ambiguous...:undecided:

[Paperback Writer]

I have a group of friends who consider themselves "witches". They are neopaganists, go sky-clad (lovely bit that), and are all into the Divine Feminine. They believe that the "Gaia" spirit is being replaced by older feminists in favour of creating women warriors for use by the military. They feel it is a giant conspiracy to remove the Maiden-Mother-Crone cycle and replace it with a the "masculine".

They posit that video games and Disney films create only two roles for women, princess or warrior, and relegate mother, lover, sister, and friend to lesser value in order to strip magical powers from women.

@IMPress Polly (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=399)

You seem to support this. Is it correct to say that you wish to focus on the "woman warrior" archetype to the exclusion of other aspects of womanhood. Am I wrong or do I not read enough of your posts?

[junie]

@junie (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=699)

do you believe that girls dislike those games? You don't think they have the option of choosing boys games and don't?



i imagine they market those particular games to young girls and their parents who buy them because there is a market for them...

i am sure there are many girls who enjoy those games and some girls with other preferences who opt to play other games.

[Paperback Writer]

i imagine they market those particular games to young girls and their parents who buy them because there is a market for them...

i am sure there are many girls who enjoy those games and some girls with other preferences who opt to play other games.

Do you really, truly, honestly believe that?

Big Fish Games is an online game company with $5 games. They don't market to children. This seems conspiratorial. I've played the Pet Shop one myself when bored.

[Mister D]

i imagine they market those particular games to young girls and their parents who buy them because there is a market for them...

i am sure there are many girls who enjoy those games and some girls with other preferences who opt to play other games.

Right, there is a amrket for these games. Perhaps the problem isn't 'society' but girls who like to play games feminists don't want them to play?

[Captain Obvious]

Obviously, Diner Dash was designed by a Patriarchal cabal in collusion with the Freemasons to subtley enforce gender roles.

So, who bought you the "sarcastic bathroom reader"?

:grin:

[junie]

Do you really, truly, honestly believe that?

Big Fish Games is an online game company with $5 games. They don't market to children. This seems conspiratorial. I've played the Pet Shop one myself when bored.



those top ten games ended up being tops with young girls, even though girls had other options...

yes i do believe that is how the world of marketing works. don't you?

anyway, seems like those are just kiddie games and not really the 'gamer' type genre polly and other many others are interested in.

[Captain Obvious]

Why do I have to get all caught up in gender role issues when I'm trying to relax and have fun?

For the record, I just played Uru recently and chose a femme character. Does that make me a sexist pig?

[Paperback Writer]

those top ten games ended up being tops with young girls, even though girls had other options...

yes i do believe that is how the world of marketing works. don't you?

anyway, seems like those are just kiddie games and not really the 'gamer' type genre polly and other many others are interested in.

Let me put this another way, how are these "feminine games" marketed to children?

I'll tell you. Not on the telly. They are marketed through Facebook and Email, not something that kids usually have access to.

[Mister D]

Why do I have to get all caught up in gender role issues when I'm trying to relax and have fun?

For the record, I just played Uru recently and chose a femme character. Does that make me a sexist pig?

You don't really care who you oppress, do you? :rollseyes:

[Captain Obvious]

You don't really care who you oppress, do you? :rollseyes:

oooowee, you're smokin today - LOL!

[Alyosha]

Bioware-EA games are all gender neutral IMPress Polly. You'd like them. Your character has the exact same role if you're a male as a female. All characters are bisexual, etc.

Bethesda Softworks did the same with Skyrim.

As far as games like Wedding Dash and Diner Dash go, I play them when I am 100% bored. They are time management games and will drive you crazy after awhile. Of those, Chocolatier is the best.

[junie]

According to a report released this week by the Entertainment Software Association (ESA), 45% of the entire game playing population are women and they comprise 46% of the most frequent video game purchasers. The study, 2013 Essential Facts About the Computer and Video Game Industry, found that women 18 and older make up 31% of the video game-playing population, while boys 17 and under represent only 19% of today’s gamers. Another study released by Magid Advisors found that 70% of women between the ages of 12 and 24 play video games. The study also found 61% of women between the ages of 45 and 64 also play games, compared to 57% of men in the same age group.

Those numbers come the day after Anita Sarkeesian pointed out (http://femfreq.tumblr.com/post/52673540142/twitter-vs-female-protagonists-in-video-games)that at the E3 conference, there were no games teased for the XBox One that featured female characters (and, predictably, got harassed for it). And it’s that confluence of figures that explain why it’s so hard to convince the branches of the entertainment industry that they ought to try harder to offer up female characters and characters of color.


Being underserved by media doesn’t mean that people stop consuming it. Latinos go to the movies at a higher rate (http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2012/05/01/474053/mpaa-latinos-are-americas-most-dedicated-moviegoers/) than members of any other racial or ethnic group, seeing 5.3 movies a year to the 3.7 movies in theaters attended each year by African-American consumers, and the 3.5 movies per year for white moviegoers. In every age group except 2-11, women are more frequent moviegoers (http://womenandhollywood.com/2010/03/11/guess-what-women-buy-more-movie-tickets-than-men/) than men. Women lag behind in gaming, but they’re awfully close to parity, even if the characters on screen aren’t. With women and people of color participating significantly in the entertainment market, what financial incentives do movie studios or video game companies have to try to cater more audiences whose business they’re already getting?


The best answer is that those margins could always be bigger.

...

For some reason, rationality and the profit motive don’t seem to apply to women and people of color when it comes to the entertainment industry. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to squeeze more profits out of international audiences, and out of young men, who seem pretty comfortably served themselves by blockbusters’ takeover of Hollywood. But apparently when it comes to women and non-white people, once again, we’re the tapped-out exception, rather than a potentially profitable rule.

http://thinkprogress.org/alyssa/2013/06/12/2145601/women-are-half-of-video-gamers-so-where-are-the-female-video-game-characters/

[Mister D]

Seriously, we need another Uncle Tom's Cabin that will reveal the horrors of American leisure time. If people don't care it's because they don't know about the abuses and cruelty.

[Alyosha]

@junie (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=699)

can you clarify (please). I'm playing several female leads on my XBOX. In fact, I refuse to play a game where I have to be a male.

Here she is:

http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/original/2/25628/1741959-hawke.jpg

[junie]

clarify what?

[Alyosha]

clarify what?

What they mean by "no female leads". Do they mean exclusive female leads like Laura Croft or ...?

[Alyosha]

Personally, I play a lot of video games. In particular, fantasy. Why I don't play Witcher is because it forces me to be a male. If I can't play as a female, I don't play.

[Peter1469]

Personally, I play a lot of video games. In particular, fantasy. Why I don't play Witcher is because it forces me to be a male. If I can't play as a female, I don't play.

Do you play any of the world war II based games or call to arms?

[Alyosha]

Do you play any of the world war II based games or call to arms?

When forced.

[Mister D]

Do you play any of the world war II based games or call to arms?

You can play those as a female character? That would be weird. :undecided:

[Alyosha]

IMPress Polly

I've said this to you before...get into the Dragon Age games. They are supremely pro-powerful female. Flemeth (my fav char) is the most powerful woman in the DA universe and a dragon!

http://powet.tv/powetblog/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Flemeth-Snark.jpg


The head of the Chantry is always female, in DAII the leader of the templars is female, the Captain of the Guard is female, etc.

Its head writer is a gay guy who emphasizes female roles and has turned everyone "bi"--much to the male screams.

[junie]

that's good some companies have begun creating more female characters, and i imagine some strong female voices in the gamer industry sparked interest in that trend.

as a side note, i find the overt defensiveness of males on this topic to be pretty hilarious...

[Mister D]

that's good some companies have begun creating more female characters, and i imagine some strong female voices in the gamer industry sparked interest in that trend.

as a side note, i find the overt defensiveness of males on this topic to be pretty hilarious...

Could you point to an example of this "overt defensiveness"?

[Captain Obvious]

Could you point to an example of this "overt defensiveness"?

Maybe I was subconsciously pressured into playing a femme character on Uru.

Testicular guilt?

[Mister D]

I take it that "overt defensiveness" translates to not taking this 'issue' seriously.

[Paperback Writer]

that's good some companies have begun creating more female characters, and i imagine some strong female voices in the gamer industry sparked interest in that trend.

as a side note, i find the overt defensiveness of males on this topic to be pretty hilarious...

Well, I think it's genre specific. Companies that want to make money won't throw it down the toilet by creating characters that people won't play. I'll just say it, I don't think that women want to play Grand Theft Auto like men do.

Women will play space fantasies, "medieval" fantasies, etc.

And even males aren't all the same. I'll play Call of Duty if I have to, but in general it's just shooting. Wow. How exciting. Strategy war games, I'll play all night long.

[Alyosha]

Maybe you can say that females don't want to play GTA or COD. There are probably some that do, though.

When it comes to first person shooter games like COD, I'm not a fan, but I'll play them if bored. The war strategy games I'll play, but personally I play video games to escape the modern world, not revel in it.

Give me a game with some elves and magic users and I'm happy!

[Paperback Writer]

What's the longest you've played Call of Duty? Not more than a hour, right?

[Alyosha]

Probably not. I've gone marathon on Skyrim, however. I once played so long that I dreamed about it from the first person perspective.

[Kabuki Joe]

that's good some companies have begun creating more female characters, and i imagine some strong female voices in the gamer industry sparked interest in that trend.

as a side note, i find the overt defensiveness of males on this topic to be pretty hilarious...


...you realize most MMO's (wow, swtor, rift, AoC, GW2) have very few females playing?...10% maybe?...yet overall there's more female "toons" then males because that's the only interaction with females a lot of the geeks get...it makes me laugh when these geeks are all "studly" like Codered and paperheart in voice chat, talking about all the chics they get and how big their weeners are and how they are "he men"...and then when a real female comes into the voice chat they all get real quiet...probably touching themselves while watching their nightelf dance...it's funny as hell...

[Alyosha]

...you realize most MMO's (wow, swtor, rift, AoC, GW2) have very few females playing?...10% maybe?...yet overall there's more female "toons" then males because that's the only interaction with females a lot of the geeks get...it makes me laugh when these geeks are all "studly" like Codered and paperheart in voice chat, talking about all the chics they get and how big their weeners are and how they are "he men"...and then when a real female comes into the voice chat they all get real quiet...probably touching themselves while watching their nightelf dance...it's funny as hell...


Kabuki Joe is a retard and a jealous little bitch. If he's over 5 ft 5 I'd be surprised. :grin:

[Captain Obvious]

Kabuki Joe is a retard and a jealous little bitch. If he's over 5 ft 5 I'd be surprised. :grin:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Obf4sE89CkY/TvO_d3C-pAI/AAAAAAAADJc/9EAXeUVyfmU/s1600/Kip_Lafawnduh_Napoleon_Dynamite.jpg

[Alyosha]

I love his obsession with me, Captain. I have more "balls" than he does so he puts me on Ignore because he can't come up with any type of intelligent comeback.

His "best" response to me was that God killed my husband for me being a bitch.

His "best" comeback to CS and PW is that he likes to pretend they aren't hot guys who can't get women.

IF he graduated high school with anything other than a "GoodEnoughDegree" I'd be surprised.

[Captain Obvious]

I love his obsession with me, Captain. I have more "balls" than he does so he puts me on Ignore because he can't come up with any type of intelligent comeback.

His "best" response to me was that God killed my husband for me being a bitch.

His "best" comeback to CS and PW is that he likes to pretend they aren't hot guys who can't get women.

IF he graduated high school with anything other than a "GoodEnoughDegree" I'd be surprised.

Yeah, that's my only beef with him - he's a pussy.

People who can dish it out but can't take it served back... nah!

[Paperback Writer]

Yeah, that's my only beef with him - he's a pussy.

People who can dish it out but can't take it served back... nah!

Fanny, yes, a talking one unfortunately.

[junie]

Kabuki Joe is a retard and a jealous little bitch.



If he's over 5 ft 5 I'd be surprised. :grin:



now that's some top notch good faith posting right there...

hey, i thought that was your pal greenie who is the size of a hobbit... :laugh:

[Kabuki Joe]

now that's some top notch good faith posting right there...

hey, i thought that was your pal greenie who is the size of a hobbit... :laugh:


...whoa whoa whoa...it's different when she's nasty, it's acceptable...but when someone else get's nasty, it's unacceptable... :)

[Paperback Writer]

now that's some top notch good faith posting right there...

hey, i thought that was your pal greenie who is the size of a hobbit... :laugh:

I don't think she cares about good faith posting. I rather like that about her.

[Kabuki Joe]

I don't think she cares about good faith posting. I rather like that about her.

...double standards, my good man, double standards...

[Alyosha]

...whoa whoa whoa...it's different when she's nasty, it's acceptable...but when someone else get's nasty, it's unacceptable... :)

...because...I've....reported...him...wait...no i never...i'm not a...loser...crybaby...bitch

[Alyosha]

now that's some top notch good faith posting right there...

hey, i thought that was your pal greenie who is the size of a hobbit... :laugh:
junie

it's in as good of faith as his contributions to the thread, but you can report me. I'll take my lumps. :)

And, yes, GA is short.

[junie]

oh look, another thread where the boring narcissists take over...

[Alyosha]

oh look, another thread where the boring narcissists take over...

At least it frees you up for some non-good faith posting of your own, junie. That's liberating, right?

[Kabuki Joe]

oh look, another thread where the boring narcissists take over...


...look at me look at me!!!!!!...I'm smarter and better looking then anyone because I say so...look at me look at me!!!!!!...

[Alyosha]

...look at me look at me!!!!!!...I'm smarter and better looking then anyone because I say so...look at me look at me!!!!!!...

...look at me look at me!!!!...I'm so jealous I could swallow my own tongue....look at me!!!!!! ....I have to pay women to sleep with me because I'm such a sexist asshole....look at me!!!!!

[The Xl]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Boy-That-Escalated-Quickly-Anchorman.gif

[Alyosha]

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/06/Boy-That-Escalated-Quickly-Anchorman.gif


Only cuz I'm a bitch, XL.

[junie]

At least it frees you up for some non-good faith posting of your own, @junie (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=699). That's liberating, right?


not at all. i live my life in good faith and posting on forums is no different. why should you feel 'liberated' to post in bad faith??

[The Xl]

One thing I've always wondered about, though. If Joe has all the people he dislikes on ignore, why is it that he somehow finds a way to get into an argument or fight with them?

You're not using the ignore feature right, brah.

[Paperback Writer]

One thing I've always wondered about, though. If Joe has all the people he dislikes on ignore, why is it that he somehow finds a way to get into an argument or fight with them?

You're not using the ignore feature right, brah.

It's his defence since he lacks the wit for a good comeback.

[The Xl]

It's his defence since he lacks the wit for a good comeback.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner.

That's exactly what it is. It's an easy out.

[Kabuki Joe]

It's his defence since he lacks the wit for a good comeback.


...this is for xl, ever hear of quoting who you are talking to?...for example, paperheart quoted you and I saw it...magic?...could be... :)

[Alyosha]

...this is for xl, ever hear of quoting who you are talking to?...for example, paperheart quoted you and I saw it...magic?...could be... :)

<<and if he really was ignoring he'd ignore the quotes>>

Face it KJ, you're just hiding because you're a

http://gamersushi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/crybaby.jpg

[Paperback Writer]

Back on video games, I used to play Tomb Raider because Laura Croft had large breasts and wore short-shorts.

[The Xl]

...this is for xl, ever hear of quoting who you are talking to?...for example, paperheart quoted you and I saw it...magic?...could be... :)

Most of the time, the quotes are between multiple people on your ignore list, yet, you always find yourself in some argument or back and forth. Furthermore, you gave me "props" the other day in a thread when I said jumping someone isn't an act of bravery. I do not believe I was quoted in that particular post.

This leads me to the most logical conclusion. You don't actually use the ignore list, it's merely a way for you to stop discussion with people who are your intellectual superior. And believe me, that number is quite large.

[Mister D]

I played a lot of Waterloo.

http://www.amazon.com/Waterloo-Napoleons-Last-Battle-PC/dp/B00005A9VX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395681777&sr=8-1&keywords=napoleon+last+battle

Great tactical simulation, IMHO.

[Kabuki Joe]

Back on video games, I used to play Tomb Raider because Laura Croft had large breasts and wore short-shorts.


...well, if that's the only way to see large boobs, then have at it...but, please, share with Capstain Oblivious...it's his way too...

[Paperback Writer]

...well, if that's the only way to see large boobs, then have at it...but, please, share with Capstain Oblivious...it's his way too...

It was when I was 8. You could, on the other hand, do with seeing a large boob or two. Might make you less annoying.

[Mister D]

best 19th Century tactical sim I have ever played:

http://www.amazon.com/Take-Command-Second-Manassas-Pc/dp/B000EVQTXM/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1395681897&sr=8-3&keywords=second+manassas+the+battle+and+campaign

Oddly enough, this was their second and last title. They didn't do a sequel. The Amazon reviews indicate just how popular the game was. Oh well...

[Paperback Writer]

I played a lot of Waterloo.

http://www.amazon.com/Waterloo-Napoleons-Last-Battle-PC/dp/B00005A9VX/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1395681777&sr=8-1&keywords=napoleon+last+battle

Great tactical simulation, IMHO.
Mister D

check this out

http://store.steampowered.com/agecheck/app/4560/

[Kabuki Joe]

It was when I was 8. You could, on the other hand, do with seeing a large boob or two. Might make you less annoying.


...I'm not a boob man, I'm a butt man which is why I married a Filipino...well, and the tight eyes...I like tight eyes... -.-

[Captain Obvious]

...well, if that's the only way to see large boobs, then have at it...but, please, share with Capstain Oblivious...it's his way too...

Fortunately your personality protects you from those pesky titties.

[Alyosha]

Most of the time, the quotes are between multiple people on your ignore list, yet, you always find yourself in some argument or back and forth. Furthermore, you gave me "props" the other day in a thread when I said jumping someone isn't an act of bravery. I do not believe I was quoted in that particular post.

This leads me to the most logical conclusion. You don't actually use the ignore list, it's merely a way for you to stop discussion with people who are your intellectual superior. And believe me, that number is quite large.


Everyone knows this, but I suspect he won't admit it to himself. He lives in a weird dreamland where he's on top of the world.


I meant to bring this up, but in the Sonic Universe (yes, back on topic) lots of great female characters. Rouge the Bat, Amy Rose (don't say it Polly), Blaze the Cat, Cream the Rabbit, and so on.

[Alyosha]

...I'm not a boob man, I'm a butt man which is why I married a Filipino...well, and the tight eyes...I like tight eyes... -.-

We're all sure that's why, however, I do believe you like butt. How's that?

[Mister D]

@Mister D (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=4)

check this out

http://store.steampowered.com/agecheck/app/4560/

Cool! I haven't played a sim in ages. I remember nights when I came home, cracked a beer, and stayed in front of the console 'til midnight. lol

[Paperback Writer]

Cool! I haven't played a sim in ages. I remember nights when I came home, cracked a beer, and stayed in front of the console 'til midnight. lol

It's quite good. I don't play it as much as I used to, but it's an excellent way to spend a Tuesday night.

[Mister D]

It's quite good. I don't play it as much as I used to, but it's an excellent way to spend a Tuesday night.

:grin: Yeah, it's typically a work night sort of thing.

[IMPress Polly]

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back with you, all! It's been a busy week for yours truly. Anyway, let me just respond to a few selected posts.


junie wrote:
...
Top Ten Video Games for Girls (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/23862-How-Women-Are-Portrayed-in-Video-Games-And-Why?p=556406&viewfull=1#post556406)
....

lol, minus Diner Dash and Littlest Pet Shop, those are pretty much my mom's style of games right there. :laugh: There must be something to the proliferation of these sorts of simple, inexpensive, non-violent titles over the Internet in recent years because this type of thing (along with the proliferation of mini-game collections on home consoles beginning with the Wii) has been instrumental in getting the masses, including for the first time lots and lots of girls and women, into gaming. To illustrate this point, my mom for example never used to play video games with me. When she first bought me a Super NES way back when, it was strictly for me because I had expressed interest. I tried getting her into gaming many times over the years with precious little success. I had hoped it would be a hobby we could share. I couldn't get her into RPGs, adventure games, or platformers (my favorite genres). The former genres were too complicated for her and the latter required more hand-eye coordination than she could master. However, I had limited success getting her into the Mario Kart and later Mario Party games. She liked the latter in particular, with its familiar board game type format and collections of simple-yet-challenging mini-games. But even there, she would pretty much only play video games with me; almost never independently. In recent years though, that's changed. A lot. These days I dare say that she spends more time playing video games than I do! (She's at an average of about two hours a day I think, where I'm now down to more like one.) So what changed? Well these types of simple, freebie, non-violent, multiplayer online games starting coming out on a routine basis, which she now learns about from friends and family and through Facebook. I changed my mom from a non-gamer into a casual gamer, but the Internet changed her from a casual gamer into a routine gamer like me.

It's really weird for many long-time gamers like me for whom these were the standard types of gaming experiences perhaps 20 to 25 years ago. We've seen the nature of gaming evolve into more complex styles and genres with fancier graphics, real storylines, etc. As it turns out though, to a very substantial degree, that very evolution is precisely what's made gaming so inaccessible to so many people in the past! We've gotten used to these more complex and expansive, engrossing experiences and suddenly now it's like throwback mode: back to the '80s with us! Only now '80s-style gaming is free, which makes it even more accessible. Maybe it's that the masses have to go through this whole process of "evolution" in its historical sequence rather than skipping right to "modern gaming". Or maybe this is just what gaming for the masses will always look like and all that other stuff is permanently reserved for us afficionados.

Well, the Internet aside, I have observed over the decades that girls and women, to whatever extent they may be into gaming, do tend to have certain favorite genres in an overall sense. Overall, girls and women are typically most into puzzle games, sims, adventure games, and RPGs (for the afficionados). The favorite genres of men, by contrast, tend to be shooting games, sports games, and racing games, and sometimes (for boys) platforming games. Those two rules have been true throughout the history of gaming and regardless of a given title's technological level in my observation. As for me personally, sims, and realistic sports and racing games are boring to me (though I can get into wackier variants like Wii Sports Resort and the cart racing games) and puzzle games typically need a plot (as in the Professor Layton titles, for instance) to sustain my interest for long. I typically find shooting games monotonous and offensive (though there are exceptions). RPGs are ideal due to their comparative complexity and frequent focus on strategic approaches to combat.


i remember my brother use to play zelda all the time...i think she was some sort of princess who needed to be saved, though. :dontknow:

Zelda is usually a princess, but not in every installment in the franchise. The main characters, Link and Zelda, are reincarnated in pretty well each of the different Zelda titles, so basically each one takes place in a different lifetime from all the others. Link and Zelda are, accordingly, sometimes reborn in somewhat different social positions, though their basic roles are consistent. Link (who represents courage) and Zelda (who represents wisdom) are supposed to be human incarnations of the powers of different creation goddesses. As his name suggests, Link is supposed to represent the connecting point between the two other values concentrated in the Triforce: wisdom (represented by Zelda) and power (represented by the villain; invariably male and typically Ganon). It is, accordingly, primarily Link's role in this set-up to do the adventuring and heroism stuff, and yes this set-up unfortunately results in Zelda consistently winding up in the standard female role of damsel in distress at some point in each adventure (except Majora's Mask, in which she's not even there). However, Zelda differs from most of her other Nintendo counterparts (like Peach and Daisy from the Mario games) in that she isn't SIMPLY a helpless damsel in distress in the main franchise. Rather, she also typically has a hand in bringing down the main villain at some point in the adventure, and this has been known to involve direct participation in combat. It might then most accurately be surmised that Zelda's primary role is damsel in distress and that her secondary role is sidekick. In short, the franchise is designed to be played by boys and feeds an array of gender stereotypes, while also challenging gender prejudices in some secondary ways. Aside from Zelda's occasionally active role, there's also, for example, the fact that most games in the Zelda franchise have a lore that revolves around goddess worship. In fact, as The Legend of Zelda: Skyward Sword has revealed, that's the reason why the franchise is named after Zelda: because she is the incarnation of the supreme Goddess, accordingly bestowed not just with a divinely-appointed role, but also accordingly vested with divine powers (like prophecy, for example). For that reason, she's considered the most important character in the franchise even though you almost never get to play as her.

Anyway, while the Legend of Zelda is decidedly imperfect in these and other ways, in spite of the bad things it's very fun and interesting all in all. I'd go as far as to say that it's my favorite Nintendo franchise (though not my favorite video game franchise). It's definitely an intriguing series. Is it feminist though? Mmm...I'd say not very much, no.

[IMPress Polly]

Paperback Writer said:
I have a group of friends who consider themselves "witches". They are neopaganists, go sky-clad (lovely bit that), and are all into the Divine Feminine. They believe that the "Gaia" spirit is being replaced by older feminists in favour of creating women warriors for use by the military. They feel it is a giant conspiracy to remove the Maiden-Mother-Crone cycle and replace it with a the "masculine".

They posit that video games and Disney films create only two roles for women, princess or warrior, and relegate mother, lover, sister, and friend to lesser value in order to strip magical powers from women.

@IMPress Polly (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=399)

You seem to support this. Is it correct to say that you wish to focus on the "woman warrior" archetype to the exclusion of other aspects of womanhood. Am I wrong or do I not read enough of your posts?

I get what you're suggesting: that there exist natural gender roles and that average feminists like yours truly are prescribing the so-called male role for everyone, thus reinforcing patriarchy. I get what you're suggesting. It's just not true though. I'm not prescribing gender roles here. If it seems like I promote heroic portrayals of girls and women disproportionately, that's simply because it's the type of image that goes underrepresented. Taking video games for example (since that's the topic of this thread), there have been plentiful helpless damsels in the world of gaming, but few heroines, and even fewer who with their own games. I wouldn't seek to reverse the existing dynamic, but to equalize it. Does that make sense?

The prejudices of typical Wiccans and many other goddess worshippers concerning gender roles are today exactly that: prejudices. Goddess worship is rare today, but harkens far back in history to ancient hunter-gatherer societies. Those societies prescribed gender roles out of sheer pragmatism. In those days, people rarely lived much more than 30 years and most children died before reaching maturity, so people pretty much had to breed as much as possible beginning as soon as possible just to ensure the perpetuation of the group. This meant that women were typically pregnant most of the time, which made it rather impractical for them to do the bulk of the hunting or even an equal share. They actually would often hunt when not pregnant, but whenever pregnant (and again, that was typically most of the time) they would tend to wind up staying home and accordingly get assigned domestic duties like tending to the children and the vegetation. It must have felt to the ancients that these roles were natural, given that they were the most efficient they had available in terms of preserving and perpetuating life. Accordingly, in the folklore of these societies, hunting divinities were male and gathering divinities were female. Thus, societies wherein hunting provided for bulk of the community's needs had a lore that revolved primarily around the worship of gods, while societies wherein gathering provided for the bulk of the community's needs had a lore that revolved around goddess worship. Western Europe, scientists tell us, seems to have been predominantly based on vegetation in those ancient times, hence ancient West-European faiths revolving mainly around the worship of female divinities. These more gathering-centric communities had one crucial weakness though: being more pacifistic in nature, they were ultimately unable to resist invasion by the more war-like, male-centric, hunting-dominate societies. This is the story of how matriarchal societies were done away with, replaced by the global patriarchy that continues to prevail today. That is why, after a certain point in history, goddess worship started becoming less common and less central to various faiths until eventually it pretty much just disappeared altogether, becoming stigmatized as the work of the devil.

There are many a neopagan today who would like to resurrect the ancient matriarchies in a new form, i.e. to defeat patriarchy by way of elevating the social stature of traditional "female roles". What they've missed is the advent of birth control in the 20th century. The advent of genuinely effective birth control in and around 1960 was a revolutionary development that forever eliminated the necessity of the old gender roles, which were, again, rooted in a pragmatism resulting from women being pregnant all the time. The necessity of semi-perpetual pregnancy, in fact, has been gradually reduced throughout the modern age of industrial development. As a result of industrial development, people increasingly lead more secure lives than in ancient times and thus require fewer children. Thus women have had an increasing amount of opportunity to work outside the home environment throughout the industrial age; opportunity that was seized upon early by the communist countries both out of pragmatism and egalitarian ideology (primarily during and in the immediate aftermath of World War 2, given the shortage of men that resulted). The West too started along the same track in earnest after the introduction of what we often simply call the birth control pill in 1960. Together with the comparative safety provided by industrial development, the introduction of effective birth control, backed up by the modern-day option of safe abortion in case of failure, has made it essentially both possible and practical for women to avoid having children unless they really want to, thus opening up a world of new options for the average woman that didn't previously exist. Women can now increasingly be economically independent if they so choose, for example. They can increasingly work outside the home. And some changes in the hobbies and interests of girls and women naturally accompany such a new and more open world. Feminists are simply people who seek to be the advance guard of that change; that historical force pushing down the accelerator on it. And I'll add that the revival of Wicca and other neopagan faiths revolving around goddess worship is itself consequential of the advent of modern feminism, the invention of which is a natural historical consequence of industrialization in general and the advent of birth control in particular. In other words, there wouldn't likely be such a thing as neopaganism if not for us feminists. There is hence a certain irony to feminists being criticized by such people.

To very briefly recap, it's not that I think this or that kind of lifestyle should prevail amongst women, but that I simply don't believe in gender roles. I believe the whole concept at this point should be sent to the dust bin of history.

[IMPress Polly]

Alyosha wrote:
Bioware-EA games are all gender neutral @IMPress Polly (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=399). You'd like them. Your character has the exact same role if you're a male as a female. All characters are bisexual, etc.

Bethesda Softworks did the same with Skyrim.

That's cool. :smiley: I've heard good things about their games that way (and in other respects as well). I think the kind of gender neutrality you're referring is the incoming trend that works best in terms of getting more girls into gaming, as I explained to Junie above.


What they mean by "no female leads". Do they mean exclusive female leads like Laura Croft or ...?

I'm pretty sure Junie was alluding to what was actually advertised at E3, not to the full scope of what exists for the Xbox One.


Captain Obvious wrote:
Why do I have to get all caught up in gender role issues when I'm trying to relax and have fun?

Blame the existence of patriarchy, not those of us who would seek to remedy said situation.

I'd just like to be able to play as a female character, and preferably one I can relate to, a little more often 10% of the time. It's not the end of my world to have to play as a guy. I've been doing so all my life after all. It obviously hasn't stopped me from playing lots and lots of games. But I do notice when I don't have the option. This wasn't something that just came to me in my college days when I started thinking of myself as a feminist. I noticed a lot of the patterns highlighted in the OP videos in elementary school. It used to be even worse back in those days. Take your old-time platformers for example. The original Super Mario Bros. had only one female character and she was just the prize you won for beating the game. Or the old Mega Man games, wherein the only female character was the non-playable Roll: a helper robot who exists to service Mega Man and Dr. Light and never leaves the lab. Or how about the original Sonic the Hedgehog, which didn't have a single female character? That was what I grew up with. Didn't stop me from playing, but I didn't exactly feel welcomed into the gaming community either, such as it was back then. It really did kind of feel like video games were supposed to be just for boys and I was doing something weird and rebellious by playing. :grin: Things changed a little over the course of the '90s and early 2000s. Developers started churning an increasing number of games where the player had at least one or two female options, though they were almost never the default. But the situation has stagnated for a long time without and in some ways appears to be reversing.

If you don't think that the sex of a playable character makes a difference in whether girls and women feel open to playing, just look again at the list of the top 10 most popular video games amongst girls. None of them has a default-male protagonist. These kinds of titles are gender neutral in that you either don't necessarily play as a character at all, can use your avatar as a character, or have lots of female options. Girls and women are indeed playing games these days. But they're not playing the mainline retail games for home consoles, almost all of which are clearly designed for men. Rather, girls and women are mostly playing gender-neutral, non-violent, freebie Internet games. Let me suggest that the lopsidedness of that gender divide could be reduced if the developers of console games made their titles more gender neutral or made more starring female heroes.


Mister D wrote:
Seriously, we need another Uncle Tom's Cabin that will reveal the horrors of American leisure time. If people don't care it's because they don't know about the abuses and cruelty.

Don't strain your brain: It must take you all of ten seconds from conception to the Post button to produce your typical entry.

Seriously, why continuously post messages like this on the same thread? Do you think I missed the first five lame put-downs or something?

I've made my case fairly extensively, providing both my own experience and links to data and the opinions of others, to which you've responded so far with steady stream of dismissive one-or-two-line put-downs that are hardly proportionate to the amount of thought and effort I've put into my posts. In the unlikely event that you've got something to contribute to this topic, feel free to do so. Otherwise, I invite you to give me a break and move on.

[junie]

Western Europe, scientists tell us, seems to have been predominantly based on vegetation in those ancient times, hence ancient West-European faiths revolving mainly around the worship of female divinities. These more gathering-centric communities had one crucial weakness though: being more pacifistic in nature, they were ultimately unable to resist invasion by the more war-like, male-centric, hunting-dominate societies. This is the story of how matriarchal societies were done away with, replaced by the global patriarchy that continues to prevail today. That is why, after a certain point in history, goddess worship started becoming less common and less central to various faiths until eventually it pretty much just disappeared altogether, becoming stigmatized as the work of the devil.



^ good posts polly... damn men and their war-like aggression... :laugh:

[Mister D]

Oh, and I love the spin here, IMPress Polly:


Those societies prescribed gender roles out of sheer pragmatism.

no, Polly. The fact you desperately want to avoid is painfully obvious: gender roles are at least partly based on biology. :grin:

Yeah, that took about 10 seconds.

[junie]

Oh, and I love the spin here, @IMPress Polly (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=399):



no, Polly. The fact you desperately want to avoid is painfully obvious: gender roles are at least partly based on biology. :grin:

Yeah, that took about 10 seconds.




you are desperately avoiding that she already said as much...



Those societies prescribed gender roles out of sheer pragmatism. In those days, people rarely lived much more than 30 years and most children died before reaching maturity, so people pretty much had to breed as much as possible beginning as soon as possible just to ensure the perpetuation of the group. This meant that women were typically pregnant most of the time, which made it rather impractical for them to do the bulk of the hunting or even an equal share. They actually would often hunt when not pregnant, but whenever pregnant (and again, that was typically most of the time) they would tend to wind up staying home and accordingly get assigned domestic duties like tending to the children and the vegetation. It must have felt to the ancients that these roles were natural, given that they were the most efficient they had available in terms of preserving and perpetuating life. Accordingly, in the folklore of these societies, hunting divinities were male and gathering divinities were female.

[IMPress Polly]

Mister D wrote:
no, Polly. The fact you desperately want to avoid is painfully obvious: gender roles are at least partly based on biology. :grin:

Well then Mister D, prescribe me my ideal career since it can be objectively known without knowing the individual.

(Let me guess: homemaker?)

[Mister D]

you are desperately avoiding that she already said as much...



Those societies prescribed gender roles out of sheer pragmatism. In those days, people rarely lived much more than 30 years and most children died before reaching maturity, so people pretty much had to breed as much as possible beginning as soon as possible just to ensure the perpetuation of the group. This meant that women were typically pregnant most of the time, which made it rather impractical for them to do the bulk of the hunting or even an equal share. They actually would often hunt when not pregnant, but whenever pregnant (and again, that was typically most of the time) they would tend to wind up staying home and accordingly get assigned domestic duties like tending to the children and the vegetation. It must have felt to the ancients that these roles were natural, given that they were the most efficient they had available in terms of preserving and perpetuating life. Accordingly, in the folklore of these societies, hunting divinities were male and gathering divinities were female.


:laugh: Right. She did say that. That was sort of the point. Take a nap, Junie.

[junie]

Well then Mister D, prescribe me my ideal career since it can be objectively known without knowing the individual.

(Let me guess: homemaker?)



some have yet to evolve beyond the cave man mentality... :wink:

[Mister D]

Well then Mister D, prescribe me my ideal career since it can be objectively known without knowing the individual.

(Let me guess: homemaker?)

Teacher. :smiley:

Who suggested anything of the sort? Gender roles are not set in stone. They obviously change over time but are rooted in human biology. What I am suggesting is that you sometimes search for far more complex answers when the simple and fairly obvious answers can't be reconciled with the ideology you've embraced. Why must their always be a helpless victim? Females need to make more films, video games etc. Would you agree? Wouldn't that correct this imbalance?

I'm dismissive of this sort of thing because I think it's frivolous. There are cultures in this world where females really are treated like shit and this is what you're talking about!? The western film and video game industries!? The only good thing I see in this is yet another indication that the ideology of liberal modernity has utterly exhausted itself both morally and intellectually.

[junie]

Teacher. :smiley:

Who suggested anything of the sort? Gender roles are not set in stone. They obviously change over time but are rooted in human biology. What I am suggesting is that you sometimes search for far more complex answers when the simple and fairly obvious answers can't be reconciled with the ideology you've embraced. Why must their always be a helpless victim? Females need to make more films, video games etc. Would you agree? Wouldn't that correct this imbalance?

I'm dismissive of this sort of thing because I think it's frivolous. There are cultures in this world where females really are treated like shit and this is what you're talking about!? The western film and video game industries!? The only good thing I see in this is yet another indication that the ideology of liberal modernity has utterly exhausted itself both morally and intellectually.



:rollseyes: nice.

that's just your selective and simplistic interpretation of her observations...

polly isn't posing females as helpless victims at all.

[Green Arrow]

I almost exclusively play MMORPGs (World of Warcraft, Star Wars: The Old Republic, The Lord of the Rings Online, etc.), the Sims, Skyrim, and the Total War franchise as far as computers go.

I've always played almost exclusively female characters, because it's comfortable to me. I grew up facing abuse (both sexual and physical) from men, versus love and affection from women, so I've always connected females with good things and males with bad.

One thing that I notice with these MMOs when it comes to playing as a female character, is how much differently you are treated (unless people know that you're a guy). Instead of just being a friend or a great player, guys practically hit on you and pretty much all the armor you can get "friends" and guild mates to make for you are "sexy." If I'm playing a male character, I pretty much have to do everything completely by myself. Play a female, and suddenly I'm having guys offer to make me a full set of top-of-the-tier gear, give me treasure troves of gold and ores or herbs for my crafting, etc. Almost as if they expect a female character to sit back dressed like Slave Leia while they do all the work for you.

It's just interesting to note the gender boundaries.

[IMPress Polly]

Mister D wrote:
Teacher. :smiley:

Who suggested anything of the sort? Gender roles are not set in stone. They obviously change over time but are rooted in human biology. What I am suggesting is that you sometimes search for far more complex answers when the simple and fairly obvious answers can't be reconciled with the ideology you've embraced. Why must their always be a helpless victim? Females need to make more films, video games etc. Would you agree? Wouldn't that correct this imbalance?

The problem with presuming that women must bear the sole responsibility for the termination of patriarchy in any sphere is that such a presumption in essence blames women for being disadvantaged. As if I have no right to complain about my range of options by virtue of not being a programmer myself.

Yes, I think more women should make the effort to start up companies and make games. But I also think that there is a corrective role for those who control the industry in question to play as well; a certain social responsibility, I believe. If you create the problem, you have a responsibility to play a role in fixing it.


I'm dismissive of this sort of thing because I think it's frivolous. There are cultures in this world where females really are treated like shit and this is what you're talking about!? The western film and video game industries!? The only good thing I see in this is yet another indication that the ideology of liberal modernity has utterly exhausted itself both morally and intellectually.

So what you're saying is that you're totally above discussing 'smaller' oppressions like this because they're too subtle and indirect for you? Sure it's got nothing to do with just plain old self-interest (benefiting from disproportionate representation, etc.)?

I talk about those other oppressions (e.g. rape, war, economic exploitation, etc.) abundantly on these forums as well. You make it sound as though media affairs are my only concern; as if I'm that shallow. And yes, as I've also pointed out on this thread, there are also very direct oppressions that women who work in the game industry suffer, like a pervasive culture of sexual harassment: a culture wherein it is the rule rather than the exception and complaining of it might limit your job options in the future. Perhaps that's worthy of dismissal too though?

[The Xl]

Hmm......to delve into this matter further, I would imagine the majority of protagonists in games are either white or Asian, not black, hispanic, or anything else.

Is this something those groups should be upset at, IMPress Polly?

[Green Arrow]

...sorry, but I couldn't get past this..."some of my readers"...LOLOLOLOL...this is a forum, not a publication...

She does have readers, though, and I am one of them. Did you stop to think that maybe this is a repost from a blog, which is a publication?

[IMPress Polly]

The Xl wrote:
Hmm......to delve into this matter further, I would imagine the majority of protagonists in games are either white or Asian, not black, hispanic, or anything else.

Is this something those groups should be upset at, @IMPress Polly (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=399)?

Pretty much, yeah. That's another great topic for discussion right there. As with sex discrimination, race discrimination too is prevalent in all artistic and entertainment mediums simply because of who controls the economic levers of the world.


Green Arrow wrote:
I almost exclusively play MMORPGs (World of Warcraft, Star Wars: The Old Republic, The Lord of the Rings Online, etc.), the Sims, Skyrim, and the Total War franchise as far as computers go.

I've always played almost exclusively female characters, because it's comfortable to me. I grew up facing abuse (both sexual and physical) from men, versus love and affection from women, so I've always connected females with good things and males with bad.

One thing that I notice with these MMOs when it comes to playing as a female character, is how much differently you are treated (unless people know that you're a guy). Instead of just being a friend or a great player, guys practically hit on you and pretty much all the armor you can get "friends" and guild mates to make for you are "sexy." If I'm playing a male character, I pretty much have to do everything completely by myself. Play a female, and suddenly I'm having guys offer to make me a full set of top-of-the-tier gear, give me treasure troves of gold and ores or herbs for my crafting, etc. Almost as if they expect a female character to sit back dressed like Slave Leia while they do all the work for you.

It's just interesting to note the gender boundaries.

Interesting stuff! I honestly can't say much more on this particular aspect of the gaming community because I don't typically do much in the way of online gaming. (Overwhelmingly, I remain a solo gamer, pretty much only playing multiplayer titles in-person, as in to say in the same room as the other players.) However, I will say that I'm not immensely surprised. For example, I occasionally visit IMVU, which is just a sort of virtual hangout place. You can buy virtual outfits and stuff like that there too though. And yeah, 99% of the clothing available for women is "sexy" clothing, as in more suggestive than just about anyone would dress in real life (at least in public anyway) and certainly more revealing than the typical ensembles available for men. (Although the latter rule applies in terms of how people dress in real life as well (which it shouldn't, IMO), it's more pronounced online.) The difference is that IMVU seems to be mostly female. So...yeah, it's not just men. Albeit to survive in a male-dominant society and culture, we're doing this to ourselves as well. That women feel more driven to compete with each other for the "affections" of men than to cooperate toward the realization of our collective interests as a sex reflects the individualistic mentality of our society, I believe...which by itself proves the necessity of feminism for the promotion of gender consciousness (i.e. of the interests of women as a social class rather than just as individuals).

[Mister D]

The problem with presuming that women must bear the sole responsibility for the termination of patriarchy in any sphere is that such a presumption in essence blames women for being disadvantaged. As if I have no right to complain about my range of options by virtue of not being a programmer myself.

Yes, I think more women should make the effort to start up companies and make games. But I also think that there is a corrective role for those who control the industry in question to play as well; a certain social responsibility, I believe. If you create the problem, you have a responsibility to play a role in fixing it.



So what you're saying is that you're totally above discussing 'smaller' oppressions like this because they're too subtle and indirect for you? Sure it's got nothing to do with just plain old self-interest (benefiting from disproportionate representation, etc.)?

I talk about those other oppressions (e.g. rape, war, economic exploitation, etc.) abundantly on these forums as well. You make it sound as though media affairs are my only concern; as if I'm that shallow. And yes, as I've also pointed out on this thread, there are also very direct oppressions that women who work in the game industry suffer, like a pervasive culture of sexual harassment: a culture wherein it is the rule rather than the exception and complaining of it might limit your job options in the future. Perhaps that's worthy of dismissal too though?

You perceive a problem here. You need to fix it. All I see are males making male oriented films and games which isn't particularly shocking. The solution is quite simple. Get to it, ladies. I don't know why you would expect male artists to fill this vacuum for you. Oh wait...yes I do. :wink:

Wait..oppression? See, this is what I mean. To me, for you to refer to something like this as "oppression" is staggeringly frivolous. Frankly, it's obscene. Sexual harassment, while hadled clumsily, really is an issue so, no, I would not dismiss it. A lack of female roles in (typically male produced) films and games isn't.

[Mister D]

Hmm......to delve into this matter further, I would imagine the majority of protagonists in games are either white or Asian, not black, hispanic, or anything else.

Is this something those groups should be upset at, @IMPress Polly (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=399)?

The Japanese need to put more black people in their games, I guess.

[IMPress Polly]

sigh

We're just not on the same page, Mister D. In your world, with great power comes no responsibility. (A rather elitist outlook.) In mine, it comes with special responsibility.

[Mister D]

sigh

We're just not on the same page, Mister D. In your world, with great power comes no responsibility. (A rather elitist outlook.) In mine, it comes with special responsibility.

I just ooze power. It's what I do.

You're right. We're not but we don't need to be disagreeable. Agree to disagree.

[IMPress Polly]

Mister D wrote:
I just ooze power. It's what I do.

I think you know that I was alluding to industry capitalists, not so much you personally. :wink:


You're right. We're not but we don't need to be disagreeable. Agree to disagree.

Agreed. Let us both apply this.

[Kabuki Joe]

She does have readers, though, and I am one of them. Did you stop to think that maybe this is a repost from a blog, which is a publication?


...reread what I said...

[Kabuki Joe]

sigh

We're just not on the same page, Mister D. In your world, with great power comes no responsibility. (A rather elitist outlook.) In mine, it comes with special responsibility.


...no consequence?...that's a liberal ideal...

[Green Arrow]

...reread what I said...

I did. What's your point?

[Kabuki Joe]

I did. What's your point?

...I couldn't get past the first sentence...this isn't a blog, this is a forum and anyone that quotes something from another source says so...there was nothing in the topic other then what she posted...if she had introduced it as such, I might have got past it...

[IMPress Polly]

"She" can be addressed directly.

Actually the OP was an original post. I copy/pasted it onto my blog. Sometimes I do that in the reverse order too, but in cases of the reverse order I often cite the blog entry for advertising purposes. Does it matter, considering that I'm the author either way?

(About half my blog entries wind up as thread topics too because I figure they get more response that way.)

[Peter1469]

Is that how you met Code? :smiley:


I almost exclusively play MMORPGs (World of Warcraft, Star Wars: The Old Republic, The Lord of the Rings Online, etc.), the Sims, Skyrim, and the Total War franchise as far as computers go.

I've always played almost exclusively female characters, because it's comfortable to me. I grew up facing abuse (both sexual and physical) from men, versus love and affection from women, so I've always connected females with good things and males with bad.

One thing that I notice with these MMOs when it comes to playing as a female character, is how much differently you are treated (unless people know that you're a guy). Instead of just being a friend or a great player, guys practically hit on you and pretty much all the armor you can get "friends" and guild mates to make for you are "sexy." If I'm playing a male character, I pretty much have to do everything completely by myself. Play a female, and suddenly I'm having guys offer to make me a full set of top-of-the-tier gear, give me treasure troves of gold and ores or herbs for my crafting, etc. Almost as if they expect a female character to sit back dressed like Slave Leia while they do all the work for you.

It's just interesting to note the gender boundaries.

[Peter1469]

Hmm......to delve into this matter further, I would imagine the majority of protagonists in games are either white or Asian, not black, hispanic, or anything else.

Is this something those groups should be upset at, @IMPress Polly (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=399)?

Isn't that Mario dude Hispanic?

[Mister D]

Isn't that Mario dude Hispanic?

Mario and Luigi of Mario brothers? They're Italians.

[Peter1469]

Mario and Luigi of Mario brothers? They're Italians.

Close. Latino.

[Mister D]

Close. Latino.

True.

[Kabuki Joe]

...here's my Guardian in GW2...I can see this outfit working when defending good against evil...

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