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Libhater
04-09-2014, 06:55 PM
Any and all societal ills we see today in America come as a result of the behavior and
mindset of atheists, Marxists, liberals, progressives, queers, liars, draft dodgers, flag
burners, dope addicts, sex perverts, welfare cheats, dependency losers, misfits, nitwits,
nihilists, anarchists, OWSers, and your basic anti Christian crowd of secular Satan worshippers.

Oh how we need another Evangelical push in the midterm elections to get some moral
sanity back to the forefront of our American society and our culture.

sachem
04-09-2014, 07:03 PM
Gawd no! Other than as literature. In high school.

Chris
04-09-2014, 07:04 PM
"Time to teach the Bible in Public Schools"


Here's why I think you don't want to do that:

"First the faithful labors of many Witnesses of Jesus Christ, extant to the world, abundantly proving, that the Church of the Jews under the Old Testament in the type, and the Church of the Christians under the New Testament in the Antitype, were both separate from the world; and that when they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of Separation between the Garden of the Church and the Wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the Candlestick, and made his Garden a Wilderness, as at this day. And that therefore if he will ever please to restore his Garden and Paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world, and that all that shall be saved out of the world are to be transplanted out of the Wilderness of the world, and added unto His Church or Garden."

~Roger Williams, "Mr. Cottons Letter Lately Printed, Examined and Answered," 1644

Cthulhu
04-09-2014, 07:38 PM
Any and all societal ills we see today in America come as a result of the behavior and
mindset of atheists, Marxists, liberals, progressives, queers, liars, draft dodgers, flag
burners, dope addicts, sex perverts, welfare cheats, dependency losers, misfits, nitwits,
nihilists, anarchists, OWSers, and your basic anti Christian crowd of secular Satan worshippers.

Oh how we need another Evangelical push in the midterm elections to get some moral
sanity back to the forefront of our American society and our culture.

Absolutely not.

I do not trust the state as it is with teaching secular knowledge. They butcher it currently.

Having them teach religious doctrines is subject to abject failure. They would butcher this even more so.

Trusting the state to install a morality is *extremely* dangerous.

donttread
04-09-2014, 07:55 PM
Any and all societal ills we see today in America come as a result of the behavior and
mindset of atheists, Marxists, liberals, progressives, queers, liars, draft dodgers, flag
burners, dope addicts, sex perverts, welfare cheats, dependency losers, misfits, nitwits,
nihilists, anarchists, OWSers, and your basic anti Christian crowd of secular Satan worshippers.

Oh how we need another Evangelical push in the midterm elections to get some moral
sanity back to the forefront of our American society and our culture.

Wow. Would that include teaching about the vengeful, smoting Old Testament God?

Captain Obvious
04-09-2014, 08:08 PM
Hell no!

Peter1469
04-09-2014, 08:10 PM
The new testament god said he would not come back as a lamb, but as a lion. With a sword.

Spectre
04-09-2014, 08:28 PM
When I was going to public school we still had Bible readings every morning, from a Gideon Bible, read by a student. Then the Lord's prayer. I was completely indifferent to both, and paid attention to neither. It was very pro-forma and spiritless, I daydreamed over the raven-haired girl with the blue eyes the entire time.

Can't remember what grade it was discontinued, maybe grade 6 0r 7?

It would be pointless. Not enough strongly believing Christians around these days to justify it, and if you are a believing Christian, you'd be going to a religious school anyway.

Liberal Doses
04-10-2014, 12:39 AM
The most important lesson we will learn will be that from God. God is presented to us as faith and not fact. For if God were a fact who among us, other than the hopelessly depraved or already damned, would not believe? Faith is a conviction. A conviction has degrees. Some have less faith than others. Some do not believe at all. Some go out of their way to be an affront to God.

Faith or fact, there is a truth which awaits us all. If it is a fact that Jesus is our saviour then we shall have salvation should we repent and believe. If Jesus does not exist, then what awaits us is a hole in the ground. Either way, do not find comfort in numbers. The faithfull may pray together, the disbelieving revel in their wayward ways. But each will depart seperately.

It is a certainty that we shall know the truth of it and we shall do so alone, for we go as we came, alone.

Alyosha
04-10-2014, 01:12 AM
The idea of public schools was to indoctrinate so sure why not? We don't want free thinkers anyway. Certainly can't learn about God or math on your own and in your own way. That's impossible...just like building roads.

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 06:00 AM
Right now the child is the highest authority in the school and the staff and teachers must be submissive to the child

There is NO discipline. The Church is and has been a failure, as many have become nothing more than a Sunday country club where only the good people need show up and simmers are looked down upon!

There is nothing in the constitution that would prevent bringing God back into the school systems as it had been from the founding of the country until the early 80's in many locations!

What is also funny is how fast the moral decline in the schools happened once God was removed!

I have heard after each and every school shooting? How could God let this happen??? the answer is, because you kicked him out of school !

There is no reason not to teach the moral values of the bibles and bring morning prayer back to school, and with it bring back discipline of the students, including failing and holding bacK students that refuse or can't learn the materials.

AND STOP THIS EVERYBODY GETS A TROPHY BULLSHIT!

Libhater
04-10-2014, 06:52 AM
Numerous polls over the years have shown the overwhelming public preference in allowing prayer, the teaching of the science of
creation, and the Bible as literature in our public schools. The teaching of the Bible, as "history, civilization, ethics, comparative
religion, or the like, has now been supported by numerous legal foundations and not just the Supreme Court.

Objectives of a "Bible Literature" class are:

* To equip students with literary forms and symbols in the Bible that are constantly referred to in art, music, and literature.

* To give the student understanding of the influence of the Bible on history, law, community, and cultural life.

* To give insight into the founding fathers' worldviews taken from the Bible promoting human rights, women's rights,
social justice, etc.

* To provide knowledge of Middle-Eastern history (Jewish-Arab), conflicts, geography, and religions.

* To teach students how to learn, and use, multiple and complex reference skills.

Enforce the importance of religion in world and national history, without teaching or imposing any
doctrinal belief.

http://www.icr.org/article/teaching-bible-public-schools/


ps: With approximately 70% of the American people claiming to be Christians, I would think that teaching
the Bible in public schools would be a no-brainer. For all of you secular humanists, atheists, non-
believers, pro choicers, multiculturalists, alternative life-stylers, gay rights advocates and the like, I would
think that a little diverse teaching of the Bible would be something you would welcome so as to go along
with your all-inclusive, all-loving, all-caring belief system.

1751_Texan
04-10-2014, 07:00 AM
Any and all societal ills we see today in America come as a result of the behavior and
mindset of atheists, Marxists, liberals, progressives, queers, liars, draft dodgers, flag
burners, dope addicts, sex perverts, welfare cheats, dependency losers, misfits, nitwits,
nihilists, anarchists, OWSers, and your basic anti Christian crowd of secular Satan worshippers.

Oh how we need another Evangelical push in the midterm elections to get some moral
sanity back to the forefront of our American society and our culture.

I would say yes as soon as 100 top Christian leaders from all the major Christian denomations have a convetion to produce a unfied Christian philosophy, then I vote yes.

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 07:20 AM
I would say yes as soon as 100 top Christian leaders from all the major Christian denomations have a convetion to produce a unfied Christian philosophy, then I vote yes.

Then you are teaching a state church and I would vote NO! The idea of being able to have religious beliefs in schools is and has always been allowed (until recent liberals have bastardized the constitution) The reason was that NO! state sponsored Church was promoted. I would not want students to be taught to be a catholic or Baptist, or even non denominational (which is actually a denomination) But teaching the moral values outlined in the bible, and that some people believe in a higher power and that someday that power will judge our time here on earth is not promoting one religion over another. Because for example Muslims believe that, so do Jewish people, Even Buddhists believe that you are judged by your actions!

So I am not for a state sponsored religion! But God and Religion have always been separate. For those that are Christian, Jesus himself was not real fond of the religious leaders of his day!

Cigar
04-10-2014, 07:49 AM
Children Require Life Skills:

Reading, Writing, Arithmetic, Physical Activity and How to interact with The Real World

... not just Mommy and Daddy's idea of the Real World, but the Actual Real Diverse World

Mommy and Daddy aren't always going to be around everywhere they go to protect them.


BTW ... there's nothing worse that trying to deal with an adult who didn't learn basic life skills at a early age :rollseyes:

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 07:54 AM
Children Require Life Skills:

Reading, Writing, Arithmetic, Physical Activity and How to interact with The Real World

... not just Mommy and Daddy's idea of the Real World, but the Actual Real Diverse World

Mommy and Daddy aren't always going to be around everywhere they go to protect them.


BTW ... there's nothing worse that trying to deal with an adult who didn't learn basic life skills at a early age :rollseyes:

You mean like our kids that graduate from school and can't read, or do simple math but did however complete there indoctrinations courses?

When you have a child in collage that can't recognize a picture of the vice president or the Sec of state? Then your prep schooling has totally failed

Chris
04-10-2014, 07:58 AM
The idea of public schools was to indoctrinate so sure why not? We don't want free thinkers anyway. Certainly can't learn about God or math on your own and in your own way. That's impossible...just like building roads.


The problem, and Cthulhu touches on this, is would you trust the state to indoctrinate in religion. Hell, I don't trust the state to do anything.

Cigar
04-10-2014, 08:01 AM
You mean like our kids that graduate from school and can't read, or do simple math but did however complete there indoctrinations courses?

When you have a child in collage that can't recognize a picture of the vice president or the Sec of state? Then your prep schooling has totally failed

So the answer to the problem is to do what?

Teach Less or Teach Better?

Chris
04-10-2014, 08:01 AM
Then you are teaching a state church and I would vote NO! The idea of being able to have religious beliefs in schools is and has always been allowed (until recent liberals have bastardized the constitution) The reason was that NO! state sponsored Church was promoted. I would not want students to be taught to be a catholic or Baptist, or even non denominational (which is actually a denomination) But teaching the moral values outlined in the bible, and that some people believe in a higher power and that someday that power will judge our time here on earth is not promoting one religion over another. Because for example Muslims believe that, so do Jewish people, Even Buddhists believe that you are judged by your actions!

So I am not for a state sponsored religion! But God and Religion have always been separate. For those that are Christian, Jesus himself was not real fond of the religious leaders of his day!

That is the other problem, the state would need to teach a single, unified view when none exists. Church and state were separated to protect religion, not the state.

Chris
04-10-2014, 08:02 AM
So the answer to the problem is to do what?

Teach Less or Teach Better?



And your solution is what, just pour more money into it, and if that fails, pour some more?

Libhater
04-10-2014, 08:02 AM
Children Require Life Skills:

Reading, Writing, Arithmetic, Physical Activity and How to interact with The Real World

... not just Mommy and Daddy's idea of the Real World, but the Actual Real Diverse World

Mommy and Daddy aren't always going to be around everywhere they go to protect them.


BTW ... there's nothing worse that trying to deal with an adult who didn't learn basic life skills at a early age :rollseyes:

Wow, did you just have an epiphany? Looks like you're favoring a teaching of the Bible in our public schools with an
accent on bringing the basics including morales back to the fore, since this early learning would include the Bible.
Next we'll be hearing that you support all of the tenets of Christianity.

Cigar
04-10-2014, 08:03 AM
The problem, and Cthulhu touches on this, is would you trust the state to indoctrinate in religion. Hell, I don't trust the state to do anything.

FUCK Religion ... leave it where it belongs ... that's not what Schools are for.

patrickt
04-10-2014, 08:03 AM
Any and all societal ills we see today in America come as a result of the behavior and
mindset of atheists, Marxists, liberals, progressives, queers, liars, draft dodgers, flag
burners, dope addicts, sex perverts, welfare cheats, dependency losers, misfits, nitwits,
nihilists, anarchists, OWSers, and your basic anti Christian crowd of secular Satan worshippers.

Oh how we need another Evangelical push in the midterm elections to get some moral
sanity back to the forefront of our American society and our culture.

I really wouldn't blame it all on evangelical preachers, Libhater. I think that's a little over the top.

Cigar
04-10-2014, 08:05 AM
Wow, did you just have an epiphany? Looks like you're favoring a teaching of the Bible in our public schools with an
accent on bringing the basics including morales back to the fore. Next we'll be hearing that you support the tenets
of Christianity.

NO ... and I went Catholic School ... leave it to those Specially Schools

Captain Obvious
04-10-2014, 08:05 AM
The hypocrisy that is RW fringe nutter is that if it were say Islam instead of Christianity being taught in the manner that our RW nutter base wants Christianity taught, beds would be shat en masse.

So no thanks, there is no reason to teach religion outside of historical and educational value (vs. teaching religion as a belief).

None! That's what your church and your family is for.

Chris
04-10-2014, 08:08 AM
FUCK Religion ... leave it where it belongs ... that's not what Schools are for.

And I say fuck government, leave religion alone.

Libhater
04-10-2014, 08:11 AM
So no thanks, there is no reason to teach religion outside of historical and educational value (vs. teaching religion as a belief).


And what part of the points made from the OP aren't suggesting we teach the historical and educational values of the Bible in our public schools?
And where in the OP was there any mention of teaching the Bible as a tool to proselyte anyone to a specific religion?

Chris
04-10-2014, 08:17 AM
And what part of the points made from the OP aren't suggesting we teach the historical and educational values of the Bible in our public schools?
And where in the OP was there any mention of teaching the Bible as a tool to proselyte anyone to a specific religion?



The problem is once you start talking about teaching values, Christian values, you have to ask which Christian values, for not all Christians agree on them and you're back to the impossibility of a single, unified view that distorts them all.

These things need to be taught in the home.

1751_Texan
04-10-2014, 08:22 AM
Then you are teaching a state church and I would vote NO! The idea of being able to have religious beliefs in schools is and has always been allowed (until recent liberals have bastardized the constitution) The reason was that NO! state sponsored Church was promoted. I would not want students to be taught to be a catholic or Baptist, or even non denominational (which is actually a denomination) But teaching the moral values outlined in the bible, and that some people believe in a higher power and that someday that power will judge our time here on earth is not promoting one religion over another. Because for example Muslims believe that, so do Jewish people, Even Buddhists believe that you are judged by your actions!

So I am not for a state sponsored religion! But God and Religion have always been separate. For those that are Christian, Jesus himself was not real fond of the religious leaders of his day!

This is where your argument fails...Whos moral values? Whos intrepetation of those values? Your interpretation? Is my son's 6th grade math teacher's values good enough? Does the school district decide? The State's legislature. The federal govenment?

That is why I facetiously posted for a unified philosophy...because religion or values is personal to each person or as an extention of...the family.

Libhater
04-10-2014, 08:23 AM
A little off subject here but fitting nonetheless is an analogy between allowing anti Christian secular trash art to be
displayed in public at a museum while making it illegal to display a Christian scene in public.

I'm referring to allowing a Chalice full of urine or the Piss Christ to be displayed at a public museum, but finding the
display of the Christ manger in public to be illegal. Does anyone see the hypocrisy here? Does anyone see the point
I'm making in allowing Bible classes to be taught in public schools? What's the harm in doing so, and where's the
consent from the all caring, equal rights, pro choice multicultural crowd?

Captain Obvious
04-10-2014, 08:31 AM
A little off subject here but fitting nonetheless is an analogy between allowing anti Christian secular trash art to be
displayed in public at a museum while making it illegal to display a Christian scene in public.

I'm referring to allowing a Chalice full of urine or the Piss Christ to be displayed at a public museum, but finding the
display of the Christ manger in public to be illegal. Does anyone see the hypocrisy here? Does anyone see the point
I'm making in allowing Bible classes to be taught in public schools? What's the harm in doing so, and where's the
consent from the all caring, equal rights, pro choice multicultural crowd?

Stop whining already.

The only thing that pisses me off about all of this is that anti-Islam "art" is censored but anti-Christian "art" is not, in fact the latter is quite popular.

If you hypocritical RW religious kooks have anything to whine about, this is it. I'll accept this part.

Cigar
04-10-2014, 08:35 AM
And I say fuck government, leave religion alone.

Ever hear of separation of church and state :grin:

Captain Obvious
04-10-2014, 08:39 AM
Ever hear of separation of church and state :grin:

Blasphemy!

It's not God's will!

:biglaugh:

Libhater
04-10-2014, 08:42 AM
Stop whining already.

The only thing that pisses me off about all of this is that anti-Islam "art" is censored but anti-Christian "art" is not, in fact the latter is quite popular.

If you hypocritical RW religious kooks have anything to whine about, this is it. I'll accept this part.

RW religious kooks? Wow, all I'm saying here in this thread is for it to be legal to have Bible classes taught in our Public Schools. What is
hypocritical about that? Any and all hypocrisy here comes from those who favor and allow the teaching of such life enhancing classes on
homosexuality, alternative lifestyles, revisonist American history etc., but shun the idea of having children learn the history of the world
as depicted from the Bible.

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 08:47 AM
Any and all societal ills we see today in America come as a result of the behavior and
mindset of atheists, Marxists, liberals, progressives, queers, liars, draft dodgers, flag
burners, dope addicts, sex perverts, welfare cheats, dependency losers, misfits, nitwits,
nihilists, anarchists, OWSers, and your basic anti Christian crowd of secular Satan worshippers.

Oh how we need another Evangelical push in the midterm elections to get some moral
sanity back to the forefront of our American society and our culture.

NO! Leave the Bible out of this! If it were used it would only get the Car-ran (that muslim book - Quran) in the schools!

How about an ethics and morals class? Parents can choose which! Modern morals, traditional values or anarchy class. Oh, they have the anarchy every day; do what makes you feel good, damn the consequences!

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 08:47 AM
So the answer to the problem is to do what?

Teach Less or Teach Better?

How about going back to teaching instead of indoctrinating? that would be a great start.

Teacher and student accountability would be the next step, if the student does not know enough information to go to the next grade then they get to repeat the one they are in!

If a teacher has too many students that don't score well then it is time for them to find other work as well!

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 08:49 AM
That is the other problem, the state would need to teach a single, unified view when none exists. Church and state were separated to protect religion, not the state.

Sure there is! they can bring that morning prayer and the ten commandments back!

I can remember one teacher that I think was not a believer saying weather you believe in God or not the Ten commandments are darn good rules to live by!

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 08:51 AM
Ever hear of separation of church and state :grin:

Yes I was told that it is in the constitution, but have never had anyone be able to show me where?

Funny thing about revisionist history!

Captain Obvious
04-10-2014, 08:52 AM
RW religious kooks? Wow, all I'm saying here in this thread is for it to be legal to have Bible classes taught in our Public Schools. What is
hypocritical about that? Any and all hypocrisy here comes from those who favor and allow the teaching of such life enhancing classes on
homosexuality, alternative lifestyles, revisonist American history etc., but shun the idea of having children learn the history of the world
as depicted from the Bible.

What is hypocritical is that if the Koran or the Talmud were taught in schools, RW nutters like yourself would shit your pants.

No reason to teach anything from a belief standpoint vs. a historical standpoint in public schools. Want your kids to be taught religious beliefs? Get off your fucking ass and teach them yourself, that's your job as a parent.

Sorry, keep commandments out of the courthouse, nativity scenes out of the parks and bibles out of schools.

No theocracies here, scooter.

Chris
04-10-2014, 08:52 AM
Then you are teaching a state church and I would vote NO! The idea of being able to have religious beliefs in schools is and has always been allowed (until recent liberals have bastardized the constitution) The reason was that NO! state sponsored Church was promoted. I would not want students to be taught to be a catholic or Baptist, or even non denominational (which is actually a denomination) But teaching the moral values outlined in the bible, and that some people believe in a higher power and that someday that power will judge our time here on earth is not promoting one religion over another. Because for example Muslims believe that, so do Jewish people, Even Buddhists believe that you are judged by your actions!

So I am not for a state sponsored religion! But God and Religion have always been separate. For those that are Christian, Jesus himself was not real fond of the religious leaders of his day!


That is the other problem, the state would need to teach a single, unified view when none exists. Church and state were separated to protect religion, not the state.


Ever hear of separation of church and state :grin:


Why no, do tell me all about it, cigar.

nathanbforrest45
04-10-2014, 08:53 AM
Morality is dead and old fashioned. Who wants to be bound by a bunch of rules established by old white guys anyway. What we need to do in school is teach how all of the ills of the world have been perpetrated by old white Christians who just want to stop people from having fun.

Chris
04-10-2014, 08:53 AM
Yes I was told that it is in the constitution, but have never had anyone be able to show me where?

Funny thing about revisionist history!


First amendment. The source is likely Roger Williams--see post #2 of this thread.

Cigar
04-10-2014, 08:57 AM
How about going back to teaching instead of indoctrinating? that would be a great start.

Teacher and student accountability would be the next step, if the student does not know enough information to go to the next grade then they get to repeat the one they are in!

If a teacher has too many students that don't score well then it is time for them to find other work as well!

Hold Teachers Accountable and Pay them like Professionals

Would you go to a Doctor, Lawyer or Accountant who is paid $22k

Are children not our most Precious possessions or is just your child a precious possession?

Cigar
04-10-2014, 08:58 AM
Morality is dead and old fashioned. Who wants to be bound by a bunch of rules established by old white guys anyway. What we need to do in school is teach how all of the ills of the world have been perpetrated by old white Christians who just want to stop people from having fun.

Rules Change, People Adapt, Time Moves On

Libhater
04-10-2014, 08:58 AM
Yes I was told that it is in the constitution, but have never had anyone be able to show me where?

Funny thing about revisionist history!

And isn't this revisionist history exactly what I was saying in the OP and throughout this thread? Leftists and or non believers
have no problem having their unionized teachers teach revisionist history, bastardizing our Constitution and evolution in our public schools, but when it comes
to having classes on Creationism, Constitutionalism, Christianity or even Conservatism...they have a hissy fit.

Captain Obvious
04-10-2014, 08:59 AM
And isn't this revisionist history exactly what I was saying in the OP and throughout this thread? Leftists and or non believers
have no problem having their unionized teachers teach revisionist history, bastardizing our Constitution and evolution in our public schools, but when it comes
to having classes on Creationism, Constitutionalism, Christianity or even Conservatism...they have a hissy fit.

Stop whining!

No, you can't peddle your "morality" in public schools. Sucks to be you.

Captain Obvious
04-10-2014, 09:00 AM
Morality is dead and old fashioned. Who wants to be bound by a bunch of rules established by old white guys anyway. What we need to do in school is teach how all of the ills of the world have been perpetrated by old white Christians who just want to stop people from having fun.

Yeah, our forefathers were "moral".

...right

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 09:01 AM
First amendment. The source is likely Roger Williams--see post #2 of this thread.

Actually it is not the separation of church and state. This is what the progressives want you to believe!

AMENDMENT I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

No state churches! No government picking one over the other...

Schools could, legally, offer Bible classes and the fact is the Bible was a text of choice in the beginning times of this nation.

I am not saying I want them to do it but it is constitutional.

nathanbforrest45
04-10-2014, 09:02 AM
The problem is once you start talking about teaching values, Christian values, you have to ask which Christian values, for not all Christians agree on them and you're back to the impossibility of a single, unified view that distorts them all.

These things need to be taught in the home.
The vast majority of the Christian Sects accept the tenets of the Nicene Creed. All the rest is ways to implement the Creed. Teaching the moral basis of the Bible is not teaching any specific Christian Sect. What is in the Bible that anyone could object to from a truly moral stance. The problem is that too many today take "No Rules" to be the only rule.

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 09:03 AM
What is hypocritical is that if the Koran or the Talmud were taught in schools, RW nutters like yourself would shit your pants.

No reason to teach anything from a belief standpoint vs. a historical standpoint in public schools. Want your kids to be taught religious beliefs? Get off your fucking ass and teach them yourself, that's your job as a parent.

Sorry, keep commandments out of the courthouse, nativity scenes out of the parks and bibles out of schools.

No theocracies here, scooter.

I actually have No issue with all of these religious books being taught as long as none is being taught as the true religion, and that includes Christianity!

Do you have a real issue with them being taught on a historical basis!

Ravi
04-10-2014, 09:03 AM
Actually it is not the separation of church and state. This is what the progressives want you to believe!

AMENDMENT I



No state churches! No government picking one over the other...

Schools could, legally, offer Bible classes and the fact is the Bible was a text of choice in the beginning times of this nation.

I am not saying I want them to do it but it is constitutional.
As long as they offer every other religion.

Many schools offer a bible as literature course. I took it when I was in high school.

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 09:08 AM
As long as they offer every other religion.

Many schools offer a bible as literature course. I took it when I was in high school.

They can offer it but if the majority do not want it, they will have hell getting it introduced. Still if they want it then so what? They can not compel students to take the class so I see no harm...

But Ravi this is why I am against Bible in school. Too many issues with our modern society to even try.

Chris
04-10-2014, 09:09 AM
Hold Teachers Accountable and Pay them like Professionals

Would you go to a Doctor, Lawyer or Accountant who is paid $22k

Are children not our most Precious possessions or is just your child a precious possession?



Didn't I predict above your answer would be more money.

Chris
04-10-2014, 09:12 AM
Actually it is not the separation of church and state. This is what the progressives want you to believe!

AMENDMENT I

No state churches! No government picking one over the other...

Schools could, legally, offer Bible classes and the fact is the Bible was a text of choice in the beginning times of this nation.

I am not saying I want them to do it but it is constitutional.


Disagree. It was separation, the purpose of which was not to keep religion out of government but government out of religion. Again, see Roger Williams, post #2 this thread.



Schools could, legally, offer Bible classes and the fact is the Bible was a text of choice in the beginning times of this nation.

But then you run into which interpretations and which values.

The Bible was because each community taught it common views and values. In the hands of the federal government all that is leveled out to secular views and values.

nathanbforrest45
04-10-2014, 09:13 AM
I actually have No issue with all of these religious books being taught as long as none is being taught as the true religion, and that includes Christianity!

Do you have a real issue with them being taught on a historical basis!


There was once a program on Public Television comparing the various religions of the world. What was striking was not the differences but the similarities. Perhaps the image of God was different in each but the moral stance was the same in many cases. I would have no issue with the morals from each religion being taught

As a Catholic I was offended in public school in the 1960's when they said the "Our Father" and included the "Kingdom, Power and Glory" part because that was never part of the Catholic version of the "Lord's Prayer" or "Our Father until Vatican 2. However, all I had to do was not pay attention to that part when they got to it. The value of the prayer was still valid regardless of the ending phrase used. The moral basis of all religions are valid and highly useful. But, as I facetiously stated in my earlier post, who wants to be told anything about morals?

Chris
04-10-2014, 09:15 AM
The vast majority of the Christian Sects accept the tenets of the Nicene Creed. All the rest is ways to implement the Creed. Teaching the moral basis of the Bible is not teaching any specific Christian Sect. What is in the Bible that anyone could object to from a truly moral stance. The problem is that too many today take "No Rules" to be the only rule.


The vast majority, but not all. How would you handle some denominations rejecting gays and some accepting? There are all sorts of social issues resolved differently by different Christian views and values.

Libhater
04-10-2014, 09:16 AM
Stop whining!

No, you can't peddle your "morality" in public schools. Sucks to be you.

No one is peddling 'morality' in public schools. Where you seem to be forever slow on the take, I'll use a simple
example to show you why you're all wet here.

World history and or courses dealing in Communism or Bolshevism are being taught in our public schools.
With the chance of students learning all of the immoral acts committed against Christians by the commies
in the 20th century, would you be just as indifferent toward classes that teach students about immoral acts
as you are in teaching students to adopt moral standards in studying the Bible? Watch what you say for
chance of being a hypocrite.

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 09:17 AM
Disagree. It was separation, the purpose of which was not to keep religion out of government but government out of religion. Again, see Roger Williams, post #2 this thread.




But then you run into which interpretations and which values.

The Bible was because each community taught it common views and values. In the hands of the federal government all that is leveled out to secular views and values.

The wording of my post may differ from the post you reference but I am saying the same thing. My issue is it is not the separation of Church and state it is the Church not running the government and the government not running the Church, like the CHurch of england and the Monarchy and the English government were.

But I agree with the rest of your post and that is why I am against Bible in public schools.

Ravi
04-10-2014, 09:19 AM
They can offer it but if the majority do not want it, they will have hell getting it introduced. Still if they want it then so what? They can not compel students to take the class so I see no harm...

But @Ravi (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=698) this is why I am against Bible in school. Too many issues with our modern society to even try.

I think they can't offer it as truth. Nor should they.

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 09:22 AM
Didn't I predict above your answer would be more money.

Well Chris you could always say they are being paid like professionals! Supply and demand and value added. They get what they are worth to their employers.

I know plenty of great teachers and I think they deserve more but market forces say they do not need more.

nathanbforrest45
04-10-2014, 09:26 AM
The vast majority, but not all. How would you handle some denominations rejecting gays and some accepting? There are all sorts of social issues resolved differently by different Christian views and values.


There are enough singularities to be able to teach the basics. The specifics can be taught by the churches themselves. The point is I believe that today there is no underpinning for any morality what so ever. Its a total free for all of what to believe. Therefore, nothing and everything is valid. There is no basis for right and wrong any longer and the more we nit pick the more we will degenerate into a Roman Orgy.

The cultures that will survive in the long run are those who are the most fundamental in their approach to religion. I believe Islam will overtake Christianity and dominate the world because it is a value system that is unwavering in its beliefs. It is perhaps harsh but ultimately that is what will be needed to survive.

Chris
04-10-2014, 09:27 AM
Well Chris you could always say they are being paid like professionals! Supply and demand and value added. They get what they are worth to their employers.

I know plenty of great teachers and I think they deserve more but market forces say they do not need more.


I'd go along with letting the market determine pay.

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 09:28 AM
I think they can't offer it as truth. Nor should they.

Don't go there. Truth and fact are very different things. The Bible is true, perhaps not so factual.

There are philosophical truths and factual truth.

A fact can never have an outlier, if it does you must re-examine the science. This is why evolution is still a theory. Not for lack of truth but because we can not define the science yet... One can not rewrite the rules to make something a fact. After trial and error and testing and validation, consistent and repeated can we change the theory of evolution to the law of evolution... Perhaps a few hundred years, perhaps never but none the less it is true.

Chris
04-10-2014, 09:29 AM
The wording of my post may differ from the post you reference but I am saying the same thing. My issue is it is not the separation of Church and state it is the Church not running the government and the government not running the Church, like the CHurch of england and the Monarchy and the English government were.

But I agree with the rest of your post and that is why I am against Bible in public schools.


Yes, I've noted we're not far off from each other in opinion, just a matter of wording, thanks for pointing it out. Certainly we also don't want the church running government. That is what Roger Williams rebelled from.

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 09:30 AM
Yes, I've noted we're not far off from each other in opinion, just a matter of wording, thanks for pointing it out. Certainly we also don't want the church running government. That is what Roger Williams rebelled from.

Yes and progressives have gone further! They took freedom of religion to be freedom from religion and they want to free the children!

Captain Obvious
04-10-2014, 09:35 AM
I actually have No issue with all of these religious books being taught as long as none is being taught as the true religion, and that includes Christianity!

Do you have a real issue with them being taught on a historical basis!

None whatsoever.

That however is not what the RW nutter faction is trying to do, they're trying to have our public schools teach that Christianity is the one true religion and all that.

Don't let them fool you.

Ravi
04-10-2014, 09:36 AM
Don't go there. Truth and fact are very different things. The Bible is true, perhaps not so factual.

There are philosophical truths and factual truth.

A fact can never have an outlier, if it does you must re-examine the science. This is why evolution is still a theory. Not for lack of truth but because we can not define the science yet... One can not rewrite the rules to make something a fact. After trial and error and testing and validation, consistent and repeated can we change the theory of evolution to the law of evolution... Perhaps a few hundred years, perhaps never but none the less it is true.
Not sure what you're getting at. If you mean the Bible can be taught as a theory, I have no problem with that.

Captain Obvious
04-10-2014, 09:38 AM
No one is peddling 'morality' in public schools. Where you seem to be forever slow on the take, I'll use a simple
example to show you why you're all wet here.

World history and or courses dealing in Communism or Bolshevism are being taught in our public schools.
With the chance of students learning all of the immoral acts committed against Christians by the commies
in the 20th century, would you be just as indifferent toward classes that teach students about immoral acts
as you are in teaching students to adopt moral standards in studying the Bible? Watch what you say for
chance of being a hypocrite.

This is RW nutter kookery, sorry. I'm paying no attention to it.

"Morality" and "incivility" aren't taught, history is taught and if religious history is to be taught then fine, teach it.

Morality is not a public school topic just as evil doing isn't taught - only history.

Sorry, still sucks to be you.

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 09:43 AM
Not sure what you're getting at. If you mean the Bible can be taught as a theory, I have no problem with that.

More as Philosophy... Still if you get a hateful person in there that has an agenda then you teach nothing but hate. Many Christians have no clue whet the Book contains.

Everything they say is demeaning others... I told a preacher that is seems the main themes in most right wing churches theses day is; "At least we are not GAY"... Sure but you are drunk, whore mongering, adulterous serial monomogists!

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 09:59 AM
Hold Teachers Accountable and Pay them like Professionals

Would you go to a Doctor, Lawyer or Accountant who is paid $22k

Are children not our most Precious possessions or is just your child a precious possession?

I have NO issue paying good teachers more I have a real issue with paying all teachers more! because some teachers need to go!

But you post is a lie! The lowest average teacher pay that I could find was S Dakota at 39,580

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d13/tables/dt13_211.60.asp

Add to this the benefit packages and the fact that they only work 8.5 months a year and it is really not such a bad job!

So now that we are paying them adequate wages when compared to people that work 11.5 months a year?

Should we not demand better results?

patrickt
04-10-2014, 10:00 AM
A little off subject here but fitting nonetheless is an analogy between allowing anti Christian secular trash art to be
displayed in public at a museum while making it illegal to display a Christian scene in public.

I'm referring to allowing a Chalice full of urine or the Piss Christ to be displayed at a public museum, but finding the
display of the Christ manger in public to be illegal. Does anyone see the hypocrisy here? Does anyone see the point
I'm making in allowing Bible classes to be taught in public schools? What's the harm in doing so, and where's the
consent from the all caring, equal rights, pro choice multicultural crowd?

The display of the Christ manger in public is not illegal. I saw photos of the creche in malls, in store windows, in people front yards, a the lawns of churches. There were no police called, were there? There weren't any arrests made, much lass mass arrests, were there? So, your statement is a lie.

Where was the odious photo of Christ in Piss shown that a creche would have been prohibited by law?

Cigar
04-10-2014, 10:07 AM
Didn't I predict above your answer would be more money.


How much should a professional who is charge of YOU child for several hours worth?

How much would you pay for 1 hour of Legal Advise?
How much would you pay for 1 hour of Auto Maintenance?
How much would you pay for a 1 Hour Limo Ride?
How much would you pay for 1 hour of Medical Advise?

Chris
04-10-2014, 10:08 AM
Yes and progressives have gone further! They took freedom of religion to be freedom from religion and they want to free the children!

Well, there is no distinction. We should be free to follow the dictates of conscience. What I teach my children is my business, not governments.

Chris
04-10-2014, 10:09 AM
How much should a professional who is charge of YOU child for several hours worth?

How much would you pay for 1 hour of Legal Advise?
How much would you pay for 1 hour of Auto Maintenance?
How much would you pay for a 1 Hour Limo Ride?
How much would you pay for 1 hour of Medical Advise?



Nice emotional appeal for social justice, but, as was stated earlier, let the market decide.

Cigar
04-10-2014, 10:09 AM
Didn't I predict above your answer would be more money.

20, 30 and 40 years from now ... I'll still remember and benefit from the Good Teachers I had.

Would you do the same for a Pastor?

Cigar
04-10-2014, 10:10 AM
Nice emotional appeal for social justice, but, as was stated earlier, let the market decide.

Answer the Question ... if you can.

Or maybe you had Shitty teachers ... who knows

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 10:16 AM
Well, there is no distinction. We should be free to follow the dictates of conscience. What I teach my children is my business, not governments.

But there are quite a few teachers out there that are Anti-theist and they tell kids there is no God and tell them not to pray. It is rare but it is recorded.

Chris
04-10-2014, 10:16 AM
20, 30 and 40 years from now ... I'll still remember and benefit from the Good Teachers I had.

Would you do the same for a Pastor?


Yes. I went to a Catholic elementary school. Good teaching isn't dependent on good government.

Chris
04-10-2014, 10:18 AM
But there are quite a few teachers out there that are Anti-theist and they tell kids there is no God and tell them not to pray. It is rare but it is recorded.


Therefore religion shouldn't be taught in public schools. I think we're still in agreement on that.

(I'm just an atheist, not an antitheist.)

Ravi
04-10-2014, 10:20 AM
But there are quite a few teachers out there that are Anti-theist and they tell kids there is no God and tell them not to pray. It is rare but it is recorded.
"Quite a few" and "rare" are two different things. That said, teachers have no business making such statements and can and do get fired for doing so.

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 10:28 AM
"Quite a few" and "rare" are two different things. That said, teachers have no business making such statements and can and do get fired for doing so.


Yeah that post got screwed up by me.

There are quite a few teachers who are anti-theist and at times they over step their bounds.

Spectre
04-10-2014, 10:31 AM
I say this as a non-Christian:

You need two main sources to fully understand the Western cultural tradition: Classical mythology and The Bible.

Without them most of literature and art and a good deal of philosophy must remain opaque to you. Imagine reading 'Paradise Lost' or 'The Divine Comedy' with no knowledge of them!

These things should be drilled into students from the earliest grades. But NOT taught in a doctrinaire way, naturally.

And there's also the fact that the King James Bible is one of the standard templates for great English prose style whose influence on subsequent writers has been incalculable.

Cigar
04-10-2014, 10:41 AM
Yes. I went to a Catholic elementary school. Good teaching isn't dependent on good government.

The Government "help" ensures that everyone, regardless of (fill in the black) gets the opportunity of Good Teaching.

Sorry ... I didn't create the legacy or history, but we're a product of passed decisions and and mistakes.

Example: I have a Technical Skill, you would have limited access to the skill if your paid me $22k/per year ... about 3 weeks to a months worth.

My point is ... you get what you pay for ... an not a dime more.

So if your child's Teacher is worth $22k ... then enjoy the product and don't complain about the output.

kilgram
04-10-2014, 10:43 AM
Any and all societal ills we see today in America come as a result of the behavior and
mindset of atheists, Marxists, liberals, progressives, queers, liars, draft dodgers, flag
burners, dope addicts, sex perverts, welfare cheats, dependency losers, misfits, nitwits,
nihilists, anarchists, OWSers, and your basic anti Christian crowd of secular Satan worshippers.

Oh how we need another Evangelical push in the midterm elections to get some moral
sanity back to the forefront of our American society and our culture.
Seriously?

Let's kill the American constitution. Who cares for the American constitution and the ideas of the fathers of the country. Hey, separation of church and state, screw it. The founders were wrong.

Chris
04-10-2014, 10:53 AM
The Government "help" ensures that everyone, regardless of (fill in the black) gets the opportunity of Good Teaching.

Sorry ... I didn't create the legacy or history, but we're a product of passed decisions and and mistakes.

Example: I have a Technical Skill, you would have limited access to the skill if your paid me $22k/per year ... about 3 weeks to a months worth.

My point is ... you get what you pay for ... an not a dime more.

So if your child's Teacher is worth $22k ... then enjoy the product and don't complain about the output.


I will simply note that you put government "help" in scare quotes and add...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xhYJS80MgYA

Cigar
04-10-2014, 10:55 AM
Everything that happened to our Economy can be traced to that idiot ... you fail :laugh:

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 11:00 AM
Everything that happened to our Economy can be traced to that idiot ... you fail :laugh:

Actually most can be traced to the current group of congressional critters.

Do you know what Reagan helped get going where manufacturing and quality are concerned...

Mind you I am somewhat of a quality, lean, industrial engineering type of person... On top of the rest:p

Spectre
04-10-2014, 11:07 AM
Seriously?

Let's kill the American constitution. Who cares for the American constitution and the ideas of the fathers of the country. Hey, separation of church and state, screw it. The founders were wrong.

I look forward to seeing you repeat this statement next time a Democrat presidential candidate is invited to give a speech at a big urban black church.

Cigar
04-10-2014, 11:07 AM
Actually most can be traced to the current group of congressional critters.

Do you know what Reagan helped get going where manufacturing and quality are concerned...

Mind you I am somewhat of a quality, lean, industrial engineering type of person... On top of the rest:p

Reagan raised Taxes on the Middle Class and Cut Programs while Cutting Taxes for the Wealthy and Cutting Regulations.

Thus ... the results ... drink up if you're in the South :laugh:

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 11:10 AM
Reagan raised Taxes on the Middle Class and Cut Programs while Cutting Taxes for the Wealthy and Cutting Regulations.

Thus ... the results ... drink up if you're in the South :laugh:

Then you really do not know..

Chris
04-10-2014, 11:11 AM
Reagan raised Taxes on the Middle Class and Cut Programs while Cutting Taxes for the Wealthy and Cutting Regulations.

Thus ... the results ... drink up if you're in the South :laugh:



Give the man a cigar for the nice distraction! My point wasn't Reagan, cigar, but that government "help" does harm.

Spectre
04-10-2014, 11:13 AM
See, THIS is what I like: wiping the floor with commies like Cigar rather than endlessly wrangling with anarchists!:laugh:

Ravi
04-10-2014, 11:17 AM
Give the man a cigar for the nice distraction! My point wasn't Reagan, cigar, but that government "help" does harm.
Like the tax exempt status that Catholic schools enjoy?

Paperback Writer
04-10-2014, 11:19 AM
Like the tax exempt status that Catholic schools enjoy?

Do your Catholic schools receive public funding or do they just not have to pay for a tax because they provide a below-cost service?

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 11:21 AM
Like the tax exempt status that Catholic schools enjoy?

Do public schools pay taxes?

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 11:23 AM
Do your Catholic schools receive public funding or do they just not have to pay for a tax because they provide a below-cost service?

They want them to pay tax because they teach that the gay lifestyle is wrong and they are against killing unborn babies

Those are the 2 big sacraments of the church of liberalism!

Mainecoons
04-10-2014, 11:23 AM
Like the tax exempt status that Catholic schools enjoy?

Catholic schools aren't the only ones who don't pay taxes, genius. All religious schools are exempt.

For the most part, these schools are subsidized by the church. For the leftist economically challenged, that means they LOSE money.

Why do you progressives think you have to tax everything regardless of whether it makes any money?

Ravi
04-10-2014, 11:25 AM
Do your Catholic schools receive public funding or do they just not have to pay for a tax because they provide a below-cost service?
They do receive public funding and they are also tax exempt (I believe under the non-profit laws). I don't know that I'd label them below cost.

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 11:26 AM
Like the tax exempt status that Catholic schools enjoy?


Not for profit!

Definition of 'Not For Profit'
A not for profit organization is a type of organization that does not earn profits for its owners. All of the money earned by or donated to a not for profit organization is used in pursuing the organization's objectives. Typically not for profit organizations are charities or other types of public service organizations. Generally, not for profit organizations can apply for a tax exempt status so that the organization is not subject to most forms of taxation. Donations made to a tax exempt not for profit organization may also be tax-deductible for the donor.

http://www.investopedia.com/terms/n/not-for-profit.asp

I guess they did not cover this where you went to school.

Ravi
04-10-2014, 11:26 AM
Do public schools pay taxes?
Goal post move. Awesome.

Ravi
04-10-2014, 11:27 AM
Catholic schools aren't the only ones who don't pay taxes, genius. All religious schools are exempt.

For the most part, these schools are subsidized by the church. For the leftist economically challenged, that means they LOSE money.

Why do you progressives think you have to tax everything regardless of whether it makes any money?

So all government help isn't bad. Thanks for admitting it.

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 11:27 AM
Goal post move. Awesome.

Actually not. Both are providing a service.

Chris
04-10-2014, 11:27 AM
Like the tax exempt status that Catholic schools enjoy?

Goal post move. Awesome.

Chris
04-10-2014, 11:29 AM
Catholic schools aren't the only ones who don't pay taxes, genius. All religious schools are exempt.

For the most part, these schools are subsidized by the church. For the leftist economically challenged, that means they LOSE money.

Why do you progressives think you have to tax everything regardless of whether it makes any money?


So all government help isn't bad. Thanks for admitting it.


He said nothing about government help, ravi.

Cigar
04-10-2014, 11:29 AM
Religion should be taught in the places of worship ... and Doctors shouldn't be Lawyers ... period. :laugh:

Cigar
04-10-2014, 11:31 AM
He said nothing about government help, ravi.

We got it, you don't like Government, there are places you can go that are without Government.

Enjoy :laugh:

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 11:31 AM
Religion should be taught in the places of worship ... and Doctors shouldn't be Law ... period. :laugh:

What no faith in the home:) Could not pass that up....

I agree!

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 11:31 AM
Everything that happened to our Economy can be traced to that idiot ... you fail :laugh:

Ok lets trace the housing collapse to Reagan? who created 21 million net jobs How many more people are working today than in 2009 when he took office? OH! NONE that right!

lets trace the decline of the educations system to Reagan. How about the trouble with Russia?

You want to look at the trouble with todays economy look at Carter and the equity in housing act and then the additions to it by the Clinton administration?

But you already know that!

Cigar
04-10-2014, 11:32 AM
What no faith in the home:) Could not pass that up....

I agree!

I learned the most effective words from my Father. :grin:

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 11:33 AM
They do receive public funding and they are also tax exempt (I believe under the non-profit laws). I don't know that I'd label them below cost.

How do they receive public funding? It is not legal in MI is it different where you are?

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 11:34 AM
I learned the most effective words from my Father. :grin:

Well pay attention to the rest. I am sure he kept your ass in line.

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 11:35 AM
Religion should be taught in the places of worship ... and Doctors shouldn't be Lawyers ... period. :laugh:

I actually agree that "Religion" should be taught at home, but the biblical or moral values and historical evidence form the religious writings are great sources of information and you can't teach the real history of the world without it?

So we try to do that and it is impossible to keep the interest of the child, so they turn out to be idiots!

Ravi
04-10-2014, 11:38 AM
Goal post move. Awesome.
Now you won't stand by your post "government help harms" typical chris.

Ravi
04-10-2014, 11:39 AM
How do they receive public funding? It is not legal in MI is it different where you are?

http://archstl.org/education/page/federal-education-programs

Cigar
04-10-2014, 11:46 AM
I actually agree that "Religion" should be taught at home, but the biblical or moral values and historical evidence form the religious writings are great sources of information and you can't teach the real history of the world without it?

So we try to do that and it is impossible to keep the interest of the child, so they turn out to be idiots!

Who is going to pay you a living wage for that information ... Fuck that ... teach RRA

Chris
04-10-2014, 11:51 AM
Now you won't stand by your post "government help harms" typical chris.

I stand by it, ravi, why the need to make things up?

Chris
04-10-2014, 11:52 AM
We got it, you don't like Government, there are places you can go that are without Government.

Enjoy :laugh:


Run out of arguments again?

Ravi
04-10-2014, 12:20 PM
I stand by it, ravi, why the need to make things up?
Does government help help Catholic schools?

Chris
04-10-2014, 12:54 PM
Does government help help Catholic schools?

Yes, but Catholic schools should not accept it as it does more harm than help. Remember, that was my statement. I stand by my statement and you continue to make things up. You're like cigar, you can't argue with what people post so you make up some distracting bs instead. I guess some actually believe you.

Ravi
04-10-2014, 01:13 PM
Yes, but Catholic schools should not accept it as it does more harm than help. Remember, that was my statement. I stand by my statement and you continue to make things up. You're like cigar, you can't argue with what people post so you make up some distracting bs instead. I guess some actually believe you.Did you get a sub-par education in Catholic school?

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 01:15 PM
Did you get a sub-par education in Catholic school?

Accepting the money give the FED some say in what the school does. We need the fed out of education, period.

Ravi
04-10-2014, 01:16 PM
Accepting the money give the FED some say in what the school does. We need the fed out of education, period.
No one is forcing Catholics to take government funding.

Chris
04-10-2014, 01:16 PM
Did you get a sub-par education in Catholic school?

In some respects, it was excellent, in others, sub-par. They taught mathematics, they didn't teach science, instead we learned the Baltimore.

Remember, my statement was about government help harming. Slip your mind?

Chris
04-10-2014, 01:17 PM
Accepting the money give the FED some say in what the school does. We need the fed out of education, period.


No one is forcing Catholics to take government funding.


Agree with both. The way to do that is for Catholics not to take the harmful help.

kilgram
04-10-2014, 01:20 PM
I look forward to seeing you repeat this statement next time a Democrat presidential candidate is invited to give a speech at a big urban black church.

I am not Democrat, even I am not American. I dislike democrats as Republicans. Both are the shit. Ones are diarrea and the others dry shit.

And I am coherent with my values. Politicians should stay out of the church. Nice try of ad hominem, but a big failure.

Enviado desde mi MT15i usando Tapatalk 2

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 01:21 PM
No one is forcing Catholics to take government funding.

I am saying even public schools. The fed needs to get out of the brainwashing business.

Spectre
04-10-2014, 01:23 PM
I am not Democrat, even I am not American. I dislike democrats as Republicans. Both are the shit. Ones are diarrea and the others dry shit.

And I am coherent with my values. Politicians should stay out of the church. Nice try of ad hominem, but a big failure.

Enviado desde mi MT15i usando Tapatalk 2

if you took that as an ad hom, you are a sensitive and delicate soul indeed.:laugh:

Ravi
04-10-2014, 01:34 PM
In some respects, it was excellent, in others, sub-par. They taught mathematics, they didn't teach science, instead we learned the Baltimore.

Remember, my statement was about government help harming. Slip your mind?They taught science in the Catholic school I attended. But what does you not being taught science in Catholic school have to do with government help?

Ravi
04-10-2014, 01:34 PM
I am saying even public schools. The fed needs to get out of the brainwashing business.
What brain washing do you speak of?

Chris
04-10-2014, 01:42 PM
They taught science in the Catholic school I attended. But what does you not being taught science in Catholic school have to do with government help?

You asked a specific question and I gave a specific answer.

What do any of your questions have to do with my original point that government help harms? Let me know when you figure this out.

Ravi
04-10-2014, 01:43 PM
You asked a specific question and I gave a specific answer.

What do any of your questions have to do with my original point that government help harms? Let me know when you figure this out.

How did government help harm the Catholic school you attended?

Chris
04-10-2014, 01:46 PM
How did government help harm the Catholic school you attended?

I don't think back then when I was in elementary the parish took government help. Government help comes with strings that take away the church's freedom to choose and act as it sees fit. All government help harms in this way.

Captain Obvious
04-10-2014, 01:55 PM
I don't think back then when I was in elementary the parish took government help. Government help comes with strings that take away the church's freedom to choose and act as it sees fit. All government help harms in this way.

Hell, back then much of Catholicism was still in progress.

(HURRR!!)

Chris
04-10-2014, 01:56 PM
Hell, back then much of Catholicism was still in progress.

(HURRR!!)

:grampa:

The Sage of Main Street
04-10-2014, 02:04 PM
Hold Teachers Accountable and Pay them like Professionals

Would you go to a Doctor, Lawyer or Accountant who is paid $22k

Are children not our most Precious possessions or is just your child a precious possession? Pay, or otherwise materially reward, students for their grades. Motivate the group that comprises the players of the system.

Ravi
04-10-2014, 02:05 PM
I don't think back then when I was in elementary the parish took government help. Government help comes with strings that take away the church's freedom to choose and act as it sees fit. All government help harms in this way.Including tax exempt status?

Chris
04-10-2014, 02:23 PM
Including tax exempt status?

How's not taking giving?

Typical progressive doublespeak.

Captain Obvious
04-10-2014, 02:24 PM
How's not taking giving?

Typical progressive doublespeak.

Seriously?

... no, fucking seriously?

bladimz
04-10-2014, 02:42 PM
So... if the federal government should stay out of the public school system, that leaves each state responsible for fully funding their own education program. You know that the first thing that some states will cut in their budgeting process is funding to their schools. Some states literally cheat their kids, putting public school ed. below funding for pothole repair. And i'm talking states in the south, that don't even have pothole issues.

1751_Texan
04-10-2014, 02:51 PM
A little off subject here but fitting nonetheless is an analogy between allowing anti Christian secular trash art to be
displayed in public at a museum while making it illegal to display a Christian scene in public.

I'm referring to allowing a Chalice full of urine or the Piss Christ to be displayed at a public museum, but finding the
display of the Christ manger in public to be illegal. Does anyone see the hypocrisy here? Does anyone see the point
I'm making in allowing Bible classes to be taught in public schools? What's the harm in doing so, and where's the
consent from the all caring, equal rights, pro choice multicultural crowd?

That would be true if there were no religious works in...or allowed in...public museums. That is not the fact.

You are conflating exibiting vulgar secular art mixed in with other works of religious and secular art [in an art museum], with placing a religious relic in a public square. A public square is not a museum.

Captain Obvious
04-10-2014, 02:52 PM
That would be true if there were no religious works in...or allowed in...public museums. That is not the fact.

You are conflating exibiting vulgar secular art mixed in with other works of religious and secular art [in an art museum], with placing a religious relic in a public square. A public square is not a museum.

Exactly

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 02:55 PM
http://archstl.org/education/page/federal-education-programs

I was not aware of that! I think it is fantastic it is like the funding that goes to Planed parenthood, they are not allowed to use it for abortion but they can use it for everything else!

So I stand corrected but am very happy that I am wrong!

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 02:57 PM
Who is going to pay you a living wage for that information ... Fuck that ... teach RRA

That is the beauty of this, you don't have to pay anyone, just let it back into the schools, it was part of the public school system for over 150 years, so just let them start talking about it again and make it part of everyday life, just like it is in the real world

bladimz
04-10-2014, 02:58 PM
Teaching the Bible in public schools is like putting broken glass on top of a mayonnaise sandwich. The sandwich is bad enough, and adding the glass just makes it worse and harder to swallow.

...sorry if i offend...

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 03:01 PM
Pay, or otherwise materially reward, students for their grades. Motivate the group that comprises the players of the system.

Ahh1 No but you could make the responsible by failing them if they do not preform!

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 03:02 PM
Including tax exempt status?

Should public schools have to pay taxes?

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 03:04 PM
So... if the federal government should stay out of the public school system, that leaves each state responsible for fully funding their own education program. You know that the first thing that some states will cut in their budgeting process is funding to their schools. Some states literally cheat their kids, putting public school ed. below funding for pothole repair. And i'm talking states in the south, that don't even have pothole issues.

They would be able to cut their spending because if you do away with the DOA each state will get several billion dollars that they currently are sacrificing to fund the government administration!

Adelaide
04-10-2014, 03:05 PM
The courts here just ruled that kids at Catholic school don't have to go to the mandatory religious classes or mass - why? Because it's publicly funded. I agree completely. I don't believe my government should be paying for the Catholic school system but if they are, then they get to make the rules. The Catholic school board is shitting their pants over this decision but maybe they should stop and appreciate all the money they get that should be going to decaying public schools where students pass out because they can't even get air conditioning.

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 03:05 PM
Teaching the Bible in public schools is like putting broken glass on top of a mayonnaise sandwich. The sandwich is bad enough, and adding the glass just makes it worse and harder to swallow.

...sorry if i offend...

I feel the same way about the sex educations programs!

1751_Texan
04-10-2014, 03:15 PM
They would be able to cut their spending because if you do away with the DOA each state will get several billion dollars that they currently are sacrificing to fund the government administration!


Trading one master for another does not make one freer. It is a fallicy to presume that states would be any better a bureaucracy than the feds.

Green Arrow
04-10-2014, 03:15 PM
No.

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 03:17 PM
Trading on master for another does not make one freer. It is a fallicy to presume that states would be any better a bureaucracy than the feds.

Actually I disagree with you here! before Carter founded the DOE in the late 70's the States were in charge of educations and we have one of the best if not the best educations system in the world!

Every since the Feds have poked there nose into the system it has been in continual slide! Getting Worse and worse every year.

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 03:18 PM
No.

So tell us how you feel :)

Chris
04-10-2014, 03:22 PM
So... if the federal government should stay out of the public school system, that leaves each state responsible for fully funding their own education program. You know that the first thing that some states will cut in their budgeting process is funding to their schools. Some states literally cheat their kids, putting public school ed. below funding for pothole repair. And i'm talking states in the south, that don't even have pothole issues.



And? What would happen? Those who cared would leave those states for states offering a better education system.

Jefferson's model for an education system was funded at the county level.

bladimz
04-10-2014, 03:32 PM
They would be able to cut their spending because if you do away with the DOA each state will get several billion dollars that they currently are sacrificing to fund the government administration!Do away with the DOA ...Dept of Administration??

Chris
04-10-2014, 03:34 PM
Seriously?

... no, fucking seriously?


Seriously, typical progressive doublespeak. Obama does it all the time, sort of like cutting planned increases is decreasing existing spending, bs.

Regardless, I stand by my position, even tax exceptions come with strings called requirements that reduce the private freedoms you have if you don't claim them. Government help harms.

bladimz
04-10-2014, 03:41 PM
And? What would happen? Those who cared would leave those states for states offering a better education system.

Jefferson's model for an education system was funded at the county level.The same old tired answer. "If you don't like (insert issue here), just move to another state that ... blah, blah, blah". C'mon Chris.

Bob isn't happy with his state's educational system, so he wants to move to state (1). But state (1)'s economy is much worse than Bob's current state, so Bob decides to move to state (2), but state (2) doesn't match Bob's stand on abortion. State (3) is fine, except that Bob has a great job in his own state, and finding a job that pays as well in state (3) is almost impossible... and so on. It's a losing argument.

You should know better.

Bob
04-10-2014, 03:50 PM
Absolutely not.

I do not trust the state as it is with teaching secular knowledge. They butcher it currently.

Having them teach religious doctrines is subject to abject failure. They would butcher this even more so.

Trusting the state to install a morality is *extremely* dangerous.

Government in the USA is lousy anyway so I agree that they do not belong as our teachers.

I would prefer that, as in some universities, we got back to private education and took the government out of it.

Bob
04-10-2014, 03:51 PM
Gawd no! Other than as literature. In high school.

You are a spunky little devil, you are.

Libhater
04-10-2014, 03:52 PM
Teaching the Bible in public schools is like putting broken glass on top of a mayonnaise sandwich. The sandwich is bad enough, and adding the glass just makes it worse and harder to swallow....sorry if i offend...

Perhaps you missed it, or perhaps you just like keeping your head buried in sand, but whatever the reason for your refusal to
have public school children learn about the history of our world via Bible study, the fact remains that there is probably no better
or more thorough source for them to learn than from the Bible itself.
If you are so inclined to see your pig-headedness straigtened out I suggest you read my post #12 in this thread so as to get
a comprehensive overview of the benefits children would get for having taken a Bible study class or two. Let me know what it
is about the learning of world history via the Bible that has your panties in such a wad.

Green Arrow
04-10-2014, 03:52 PM
So tell us how you feel :)

How about "fuck no"?

Bob
04-10-2014, 03:54 PM
The new testament god said he would not come back as a lamb, but as a lion. With a sword.

Picture you are at the Zoo. And you drift over to the Lion cage.

Suddenly you see these two lions sword fighting.

:roflmao:

Bob
04-10-2014, 03:58 PM
The most important lesson we will learn will be that from God. God is presented to us as faith and not fact. For if God were a fact who among us, other than the hopelessly depraved or already damned, would not believe? Faith is a conviction. A conviction has degrees. Some have less faith than others. Some do not believe at all. Some go out of their way to be an affront to God.

Faith or fact, there is a truth which awaits us all. If it is a fact that Jesus is our saviour then we shall have salvation should we repent and believe. If Jesus does not exist, then what awaits us is a hole in the ground. Either way, do not find comfort in numbers. The faithfull may pray together, the disbelieving revel in their wayward ways. But each will depart seperately.

It is a certainty that we shall know the truth of it and we shall do so alone, for we go as we came, alone.

I can't imagine the universe without God creating this marvel of all time. It is harder to not believe in GOD than to believe.

Bob
04-10-2014, 04:03 PM
The idea of public schools was to indoctrinate so sure why not? We don't want free thinkers anyway. Certainly can't learn about God or math on your own and in your own way. That's impossible...just like building roads.

Some of them claim GOD has to be accepted only by faith.

Well, suppose we encounter one of the Great Rembrandt paintings in a gallery.

We glance about to find the artist. Seeing none there, we assume science of some sort created it and not the man.

Fools live life not believing GOD exists.

As to the way religions handle this, I sure have problems with most of them.

As with the painting, one must tune up their sensors in order to experience GOD. We must stop shutting out GOD because we are part of his "miracle" and as such, just as with nature, ought not to mock GOD.

We experience Rembrandt through his works. Same thing happens with GOD.

Gerrard Winstanley
04-10-2014, 04:05 PM
"The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation" - Numbers 14:18

"And ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones" - Kings 3:19

"He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries" - Psalm 110:6

"But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD" - Jeremiah 12:17

"So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land" - Numbers 21:35

...

Might there not be better moral authorities than the King James Bible?

Chris
04-10-2014, 04:06 PM
The same old tired answer. "If you don't like (insert issue here), just move to another state that ... blah, blah, blah". C'mon Chris.

Bob isn't happy with his state's educational system, so he wants to move to state (1). But state (1)'s economy is much worse than Bob's current state, so Bob decides to move to state (2), but state (2) doesn't match Bob's stand on abortion. State (3) is fine, except that Bob has a great job in his own state, and finding a job that pays as well in state (3) is almost impossible... and so on. It's a losing argument.

You should know better.



And you same old same old is what, blad, increase the control of the federal government and leave people with no choices.

Those states that lose would be forced to changed. It's a winning argument. Beats the mediocrity results from your central planning.

You should know better. You just have to think a little.

Bob
04-10-2014, 04:08 PM
Then you are teaching a state church and I would vote NO! The idea of being able to have religious beliefs in schools is and has always been allowed (until recent liberals have bastardized the constitution) The reason was that NO! state sponsored Church was promoted. I would not want students to be taught to be a catholic or Baptist, or even non denominational (which is actually a denomination) But teaching the moral values outlined in the bible, and that some people believe in a higher power and that someday that power will judge our time here on earth is not promoting one religion over another. Because for example Muslims believe that, so do Jewish people, Even Buddhists believe that you are judged by your actions!

So I am not for a state sponsored religion! But God and Religion have always been separate. For those that are Christian, Jesus himself was not real fond of the religious leaders of his day!

Come to think of it, are there accounts where Jesus taught at the schools of that era? I am trying hard to recall him teaching children at any place he visited.

Archer0915
04-10-2014, 04:14 PM
"The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation" - Numbers 14:18

"And ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones" - Kings 3:19

"He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries" - Psalm 110:6

"But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD" - Jeremiah 12:17

"So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land" - Numbers 21:35

...

Might there not be better moral authorities than the King James Bible?

OT vs NT...

But God Obama kills and have given himself authority to kill on rumore, no proof.

Gerrard Winstanley
04-10-2014, 04:19 PM
OT vs NT...
Obama's irrelevant. The Bible and Dreams from My Father are both tomes we should strive to keep out of the public school curriculum.

Captain Obvious
04-10-2014, 04:24 PM
Seriously, typical progressive doublespeak. Obama does it all the time, sort of like cutting planned increases is decreasing existing spending, bs.

Regardless, I stand by my position, even tax exceptions come with strings called requirements that reduce the private freedoms you have if you don't claim them. Government help harms.

What, like not allowing lobbying or a conduit pass-through of tax exempt funds to individuals, others excessively?

The point that you made there, dear Chris is that tax exemption is certainly not unequal to government funding. I know that, you know that, doubly double-speaking isn't true-speak.

Captain Obvious
04-10-2014, 04:25 PM
Should public schools have to pay taxes?

No

Peter1469
04-10-2014, 05:10 PM
Pay, or otherwise materially reward, students for their grades. Motivate the group that comprises the players of the system.

Why not pay everyone for everything. That would motivate them, no?

Peter1469
04-10-2014, 05:12 PM
Obama's irrelevant. The Bible and Dreams from My Father are both tomes we should strive to keep out of the public school curriculum.

Obama isn't irrelevant- he is an assassin. He has a license to kill. No due process required.

kilgram
04-10-2014, 05:14 PM
Why not pay everyone for everything. That would motivate them, no?
Do you know that payment is the worst motivator?

Green Arrow
04-10-2014, 05:17 PM
Should public schools have to pay taxes?
zelmo1234, how does that make any logical sense? Public schools are funded by taxes. Taxing entities that are funded by taxes is just recycling taxes. They aren't actually paying anything.

Peter1469
04-10-2014, 05:18 PM
How about "fuck no"?

Warning: all, let's stay on topic. Thank you in advance.

Peter1469
04-10-2014, 05:20 PM
@zelmo1234 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=588), how does that make any logical sense? Public schools are funded by taxes. Taxing entities that are funded by taxes is just recycling taxes. They aren't actually paying anything.

The military members are funded by taxes, yet their salaries are taxes. At least when they are not in a combat zone.

Green Arrow
04-10-2014, 05:21 PM
The military members are funded by taxes, yet their salaries are taxes. At least when they are not in a combat zone.

Right, and that's wrong (and also stupid). In my opinion, service members should be tax exempt.

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 05:36 PM
Do away with the DOA ...Dept of Administration??

Not sure what I was thinking but hopefully you knew I meant the DOE!

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 05:38 PM
How about "fuck no"?

Did you want to expand on those thoughts? :) LOL! Thanks!

Chris
04-10-2014, 05:39 PM
Do away with the DOA ...Dept of Administration??


Not sure what I was thinking but hopefully you knew I meant the DOE!


Probably Freudian for Dead on Arrival.

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 05:41 PM
Come to think of it, are there accounts where Jesus taught at the schools of that era? I am trying hard to recall him teaching children at any place he visited.

Actually he is likely to have taught children everywhere that they went. For one the little girl that comes to get him to heal her father!

Remember the writings of the times. It was very rare to list women as part of the crowd, and even more rare for them to talk about children

But where he was, the coast, the crop fields ect would have likely been filled with children!

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 05:42 PM
No

Then why would we lobby for private schools to pay taxes?

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 05:44 PM
Warning: all, let's stay on topic. Thank you in advance.

Blame me for that one! I caused this to happen Sorry, not Green's fault!!!!

zelmo1234
04-10-2014, 05:46 PM
@zelmo1234 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=588), how does that make any logical sense? Public schools are funded by taxes. Taxing entities that are funded by taxes is just recycling taxes. They aren't actually paying anything.

I would agree with this, however our last Gov. Mrs Granholm AKA the mole. decided to tax all state properties and she decided that the Department of Natural resources was the department that was going to pay them.

It was the only way that she could get her hands on the pitman Robertson money! Stole 43% of the sportsman's money and moved it to the general fund,

Why do you think that she moved to CA, she was not welcome here!

patrickt
04-10-2014, 08:18 PM
Seriously?

Let's kill the American constitution. Who cares for the American constitution and the ideas of the fathers of the country. Hey, separation of church and state, screw it. The founders were wrong.

The founders were right. The nitwits who claim that a separation of church and state is mandated by the Constitution are wrong.

Here is what it says: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;...."

Ravi
04-10-2014, 08:19 PM
Seriously?

... no, fucking seriously?
Qft

Ravi
04-10-2014, 08:23 PM
Should public schools have to pay taxes?
No and I don't think most nonprofits should either unless they are over funneling their profits to their employees. I was trying to determine how the government helping in this manner is harmful.

Ravi
04-10-2014, 08:27 PM
And you same old same old is what, blad, increase the control of the federal government and leave people with no choices.

Those states that lose would be forced to changed. It's a winning argument. Beats the mediocrity results from your central planning.

You should know better. You just have to think a little.
You can simply move to another country.

Green Arrow
04-10-2014, 08:30 PM
You can simply move to another country.

Why not stick around and change this one?

nic34
04-10-2014, 08:52 PM
Any and all societal ills we see today in America come as a result of the behavior and
mindset of atheists, Marxists, liberals, progressives, queers, liars, draft dodgers, flag
burners, dope addicts, sex perverts, welfare cheats, dependency losers, misfits, nitwits,
nihilists, anarchists, OWSers, and your basic anti Christian crowd of secular Satan worshippers.

Oh how we need another Evangelical push in the midterm elections to get some moral
sanity back to the forefront of our American society and our culture.

OK, but all churches will have to teach American Civics and evolution. Deal?

Libhater
04-10-2014, 09:41 PM
OK, but all churches will have to teach American Civics and evolution. Deal?

No deal. We're talking about teaching the Bible in our public schools--not in our churches.

Peter1469
04-10-2014, 09:47 PM
No deal. We're talking about teaching the Bible in our public schools--not in our churches.

Don't distract them from teaching the basics to survive in life. The bible should be part of a comparative analysis of world religions for the really bright kids. The dim ones are still trying to get basic math, and the average ones are still having a hard time with college level English.

Gerrard Winstanley
04-11-2014, 03:08 AM
Obama isn't irrelevant- he is an assassin. He has a license to kill. No due process required.
Did Obama write the Bible?

Archer0915
04-11-2014, 03:12 AM
No deal. We're talking about teaching the Bible in our public schools--not in our churches.
Perhaps some churches need to consider teaching the Bible instead of just preaching out of their heads.

Gerrard Winstanley
04-11-2014, 03:38 AM
No deal. We're talking about teaching the Bible in our public schools--not in our churches.
The public school system is as unsuitable a platform for Bible tutelage as the churches are for the theory of evolution.

1751_Texan
04-11-2014, 04:19 AM
OK, but all churches will have to teach American Civics and evolution. Deal?

That is an even better idea. Let them teach the bible in all churches before proposing teaching it in schools.

1751_Texan
04-11-2014, 04:26 AM
Obama isn't irrelevant- he is an assassin. He has a license to kill. No due process required.

If you call for Obama to use due process in his determinations to use deadly force...Why do you not practice the same requirement yourself before labling him an assasin? shoudn't the determination that Obama is an assisin be ajudicated in a court of law? You know, Due Process.

Refugee
04-11-2014, 05:41 AM
Any and all societal ills we see today in America come as a result of the behavior and
mindset of atheists, Marxists, liberals, progressives, queers, liars, draft dodgers, flag
burners, dope addicts, sex perverts, welfare cheats, dependency losers, misfits, nitwits,
nihilists, anarchists, OWSers, and your basic anti Christian crowd of secular Satan worshippers.

Oh how we need another Evangelical push in the midterm elections to get some moral
sanity back to the forefront of our American society and our culture.

Hasn’t he got a point here? It’s not necessarily the above who have caused the problems; it’s those progressives who have used group concepts of morality to alter a society in which all fight against each other. Muslims hate gays, the left hate the right, the poor hate the rich . . . . .

What’s wrong with teaching the Ten Commandments as a unifying system of morality, instead of everyone being encouraged to make their own? Are the words, “Thou shalt not”, a bit too authoritarian in a, “do your own thing, man”, society? Perhaps if the serial killer running amok in schools had learnt “Thou shall not”, his reply when asked why he did it, might not be, “I felt like it”?

Might there be a reason why dictators ban religions and try to replace them with political ideologies?

Well worth a quick five minute read to make you think and applies equally to all western societies.

http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/20-signs-that-the-fabric-of-american-society-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams (http://endoftheamericandream.com/archives/20-signs-that-the-fabric-of-american-society-is-coming-apart-at-the-seams)

“Whatever your political or religious philosophy is, hopefully you can agree that America is in trouble. Every single day, there are more shocking revelations about the corruption and the decay that are spreading throughout this nation.”

1751_Texan
04-11-2014, 05:52 AM
Don't distract them from teaching the basics to survive in life. The bible should be part of a comparative analysis of world religions for the really bright kids. The dim ones are still trying to get basic math, and the average ones are still having a hard time with college level English.


So if a student has worked hard and achieved, he should not be expected to waste valuble time earned taking a comparative religion class...How liberal arts is that?

Bright students should be allowed to take more AP and college credit courses, not frivol their time away.

Libhater
04-11-2014, 05:55 AM
The public school system is as unsuitable a platform for Bible tutelage as the churches are for the theory of evolution.

While you'll never know nor care of how much I appreciate your one-liner drive-by's for their seemingly worthless contribution to this thread, I would suggest you
go back to post #12 and read of the very distinct points made as to how and why Bible study in our public schools will not only benefit our children students in
their quest to learn about world history and religion, but it might also equip those students with a solid moral foundation in which to compare against the many
negative qualities of the secularist/humanist world they now face here in America.
If you do read those points from post #12, you'll be sure to tell us of which ones if any don't resonate with your secular viewpoint(s) and why, okay? Just what
scares you from teaching students about world history and or religion?

Peter1469
04-11-2014, 06:04 AM
I don't see how you get from my comment to the bolded.

To clarify dim is a term of art. It means that you are on the left of the IQ bell curve.


So if a student has worked hard and achieved, he should not be expected to waste valuble time earned taking a comparative religion class...How liberal arts is that?

Bright students should be allowed to take more AP and college credit courses, not frivol their time away.

Gerrard Winstanley
04-11-2014, 06:18 AM
While you'll never know nor care of how much I appreciate your one-liner drive-by's for their seemingly worthless contribution to this thread, I would suggest you
go back to post #12 and read of the very distinct points made as to how and why Bible study in our public schools will not only benefit our children students in
their quest to learn about world history and religion, but it might also equip those students with a solid moral foundation in which to compare against the many
negative qualities of the secularist/humanist world they now face here in America.
If you do read those points from post #12, you'll be sure to tell us of which ones if any don't resonate with your secular viewpoint(s) and why, okay? Just what
scares you from teaching students about world history and or religion?
I'm not particularly scared about anything, other than the fact this is another blatant attempt by the Christian Right to pollute the secular political foundation of the United States. But, hey, if schools want to teach world history, they can at least have the kids pick up a real history book. Tales of talking snakes and a dead rabbi's fanciful escapades in Roman Judea are about as likely to speak to kids today as those old Dick and Jane things from the '70s.

Going back to post #12, "overwhelming" public support for the introduction of religious fixtures into the school system equates to zilch. The "overwhelming" majority of the public elects douches like Obama and would have shite like Modern Family played on perpetual television loop. Stuff like this (http://www.christianpost.com/news/survey-65-percent-of-americans-support-prayer-in-public-schools-48969/) actually highlights the failure of the said system to provide adequate instruction on specifics of the Constitution.

Libhater
04-11-2014, 06:45 AM
I'm not particularly scared about anything, other than the fact this is another blatant attempt by the Christian Right to pollute the secular political foundation of the United States. But, hey, if schools want to teach world history, they can at least have the kids pick up a real history book. Tales of talking snakes and a dead rabbi's fanciful escapades in Roman Judea are about as likely to speak to kids today as those old Dick and Jane things from the '70s.

Going back to post #12, "overwhelming" public support for the introduction of religious fixtures into the school system equates to zilch. The "overwhelming" majority of the public elects douches like Obama and would have shite like Modern Family played on perpetual television loop. Stuff like this (http://www.christianpost.com/news/survey-65-percent-of-americans-support-prayer-in-public-schools-48969/) actually highlights the failure of the said system to provide adequate instruction on specifics of the Constitution.

Your premise that America comes from a secular political foundation is flawed from the get-go. While I appreciate the fact that you can't or won't accept
the history of Christ and or of the Bible in no way should deter our school children from learning that history. Perhaps the Bible being the most prolific read
book in history isn't up to snuff with you, and perhaps you would rather have our kids read George Orwell's '1984' or 'Hillary's 'It takes a village' so as to
teach them to come to terms with fantasy land and the push to live in a utopia of sorts.
BTW, approximately 90-95% of our Founding Fathers were religious people and they created our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution by
having a religious background, and by having the spiritual committment to part from an overbearing secular minded king.

Peter1469
04-11-2014, 07:04 AM
Well are you going to teach the bible as literal fact; or the bible as it was written- metaphors to teach general life lessons?


Your premise that America comes from a secular political foundation is flawed from the get-go. While I appreciate the fact that you can't or won't accept
the history of Christ and or of the Bible in no way should deter our school children from learning that history. Perhaps the Bible being the most prolific read
book in history isn't up to snuff with you, and perhaps you would rather have our kids read George Orwell's '1984' or 'Hillary's 'It takes a village' so as to
teach them to come to terms with fantasy land and the push to live in a utopia of sorts.
BTW, approximately 90-95% of our Founding Fathers were religious people and they created our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution by
having a religious background, and by having the spiritual committment to part from an overbearing secular minded king.

Gerrard Winstanley
04-11-2014, 07:07 AM
Your premise that America comes from a secular political foundation is flawed from the get-go.
How?

While I appreciate the fact that you can't or won't accept
the history of Christ and or of the Bible in no way should deter our school children from learning that history.
Great. Can't they do it outside of the classroom?

Perhaps the Bible being the most prolific read
book in history isn't up to snuff with you, and perhaps you would rather have our kids read George Orwell's '1984' or 'Hillary's 'It takes a village' so as to
teach them to come to terms with fantasy land and the push to live in a utopia of sorts.
What would be wrong with teaching Orwell in schools?

BTW, approximately 90-95% of our Founding Fathers were religious people and they created our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution by
having a religious background, and by having the spiritual committment to part from an overbearing secular minded king.
The Indians aside, virtually everybody in North America back then was a Christian.

nic34
04-11-2014, 09:25 AM
No deal. We're talking about teaching the Bible in our public schools--not in our churches.

No teaching the Bible in churches? So what good are they?

nic34
04-11-2014, 09:30 AM
BTW, approximately 90-95% of our Founding Fathers were religious people and they created our Declaration of Independence and our Constitution by having a religious background, and by having the spiritual committment to part from an overbearing secular minded king.

And you'll notice they had the good sense to leave Christianity out of it, because nowhere in those documents are Jesus and the Christian religion ever mentioned. In fact God is only refered to as "Creator".

Secular as it gets.

Captain Obvious
04-11-2014, 09:44 AM
Nobody's teaching bible classes in public schools. Want bible classes? Do that shit yourself.

Non issue.

The Sage of Main Street
04-11-2014, 11:58 AM
"The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation" - Numbers 14:18

"And ye shall smite every fenced city, and every choice city, and shall fell every good tree, and stop all wells of water, and mar every good piece of land with stones" - Kings 3:19

"He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries" - Psalm 110:6

"But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the LORD" - Jeremiah 12:17

"So they smote him, and his sons, and all his people, until there was none left him alive: and they possessed his land" - Numbers 21:35

...

Might there not be better moral authorities than the King James Bible?

So that's what inspired Born Again Biblebanger Bushwhack's tactics in "Operation Iraqi Freedom"!

The Sage of Main Street
04-11-2014, 12:06 PM
Why not pay everyone for everything? That would motivate them, no?

Divide the grade-school and high school classes into teams and quiz frequently. The teams with the highest score get Friday off, the ones with the lowest will have to go to school on Saturday. Individual high-scorers from 4 grades older will get paid to teach the Saturday classes.

That is the natural way to motivate children. The dysfunctional present system is motivated by the oppressive designs of the ruling class.

Peter1469
04-11-2014, 12:11 PM
Divide the grade-school and high school classes into teams and quiz frequently. The teams with the highest score get Friday off, the ones with the lowest will have to go to school on Saturday. Individual high-scorers from 4 grades older will get paid to teach the Saturday classes.

That is the natural way to motivate children. The dysfunctional present system is motivated by the oppressive designs of the ruling class.

^^^ brilliant. ^^^

The Xl
04-11-2014, 12:13 PM
Divide the grade-school and high school classes into teams and quiz frequently. The teams with the highest score get Friday off, the ones with the lowest will have to go to school on Saturday. Individual high-scorers from 4 grades older will get paid to teach the Saturday classes.

That is the natural way to motivate children. The dysfunctional present system is motivated by the oppressive designs of the ruling class.

This......makes some sense.

Nice, Sage.

Green Arrow
04-11-2014, 12:15 PM
Divide the grade-school and high school classes into teams and quiz frequently. The teams with the highest score get Friday off, the ones with the lowest will have to go to school on Saturday. Individual high-scorers from 4 grades older will get paid to teach the Saturday classes.

http://www.theprospect.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/tumblr_inline_mity9zDlE01qz4rgp.gif

Who are you, sensible person, and what have you done with Sage?!

Captain Obvious
04-11-2014, 12:41 PM
Divide the grade-school and high school classes into teams and quiz frequently. The teams with the highest score get Friday off, the ones with the lowest will have to go to school on Saturday. Individual high-scorers from 4 grades older will get paid to teach the Saturday classes.

That is the natural way to motivate children. The dysfunctional present system is motivated by the oppressive designs of the ruling class.

Soccer moms would riot.

Not a fucking chance of that ever happening.

nic34
04-11-2014, 12:49 PM
As I said, Sage is colorful, just read between the lines....:laugh:

The Sage of Main Street
04-12-2014, 11:45 AM
Soccer moms would riot.

Not a fucking chance of that ever happening.

Soccer Moms suffer brain damage from too many headers. Are we going to let such selfish and uncaring parents continue to put their children under an unnatural and unmotivating educational regime?

The Sage of Main Street
04-12-2014, 11:49 AM
As I said, Sage is colorful, just read between the lines....:laugh: If you read between the lines, you're still trapped in the text. Professional writers are my enemies; I read them only to spy on them.

The Sage of Main Street
04-12-2014, 11:58 AM
^^^ brilliant. ^^^ When I first posted it 10 years ago, the reaction was, "I want my students to learn out of the love of learning, not for some reward other than that."

Also, "winning is its own reward" only motivates in sports, which is a more primitive instinct and related to hunting during the pre-intelligent epochs.

Newpublius
04-12-2014, 12:04 PM
It's not a bad idea, but make no mistake about it, there are many families who need their working age teenagers working in order to put a $50 bill on the table every week, they might not have Saturday to give you.

Gerrard Winstanley
04-13-2014, 04:23 AM
So that's what inspired Born Again Biblebanger Bushwhack's tactics in "Operation Iraqi Freedom"!
He admitted it in his autobiography, I believe.

Libhater
04-13-2014, 06:15 AM
The dysfunctional present system is motivated by the oppressive designs of the ruling class.

Who 'EXACTLY' represent this 'RULING CLASS'? The folks in charge of our public school childrens' education are the teachers
who have their government union to back up their every move. So any and all oppressive designs made to the kids' education
comes soley from this union.

The Sage of Main Street
04-13-2014, 03:47 PM
Who 'EXACTLY' represent this 'RULING CLASS'? The folks in charge of our public school childrens' education are the teachers
who have their government union to back up their every move. So any and all oppressive designs made to the kids' education
comes soley from this union.

Your Right Wing talk-show nannies provide you with these scapegoats. Doing boring things without reward sets these kids up to accept rewards lower than they deserve when they finally do get paid to work. Also, without any teamwork in the classroom, they won't tend to unionize.

Libhater
04-13-2014, 04:48 PM
Your Right Wing talk-show nannies provide you with these scapegoats. Doing boring things without reward sets these kids up to accept rewards lower than they deserve when they finally do get paid to work. Also, without any teamwork in the classroom, they won't tend to unionize.

What are you high? Its the reward system fueled by competition in school as well as in the work force that makes for a strong and properous society
with plenty of room and talent to climb the ladder to success. What are these scapegoats you talk about? You're talking ragtime now.

The Sage of Main Street
04-14-2014, 09:28 AM
He admitted it in his autobiography, I believe.

Did the Bushling entitle his autobiography My Pet Goat?