The GOP's New Healthcare Dilemma

[Green Arrow]

Congratulations, Republicans, you blew it. You lost the fight. Don't feel bad, though, because you're not the only ones. Classical progressives like myself aren't too happy, either. Instead of real liberal healthcare like single-payer, the corporate hacks in the Democratic Party shoved the single biggest handout to big insurance companies in our history down our throats. Your message of "Repeal!" worked great up until open enrollment. Now, over 8 million people have signed up for coverage, and by the time 2016 rolls around and you get a chance at taking control of government and doing something about the Affordable Care Act, two more enrollment periods will have occurred and the number will likely be even higher.

So, now, you can't just repeal. If you just repeal at this stage, the costs will be astronomical. You thought the ACA's cancellation of existing health plans was bad? Try just repealing the ACA when double-digit millions have ACA health plans. It will be a nightmare. You have two real choices: Develop a serious, coherent plan for repeal that also includes a transition onto new health coverage for those with ACA coverage, or abandon repeal and just work incrementally to improve the law to your liking.

Personally, I prefer the latter route. It's simpler and I think it has the potential to make everyone happy. Republicans, even the most conservative among your number, can go with the incremental change route without compromising your ideals. For starters, you can expand and strengthen the co-op clause, which is in keeping with your pro-states' rights stance by allowing states to develop their own, alternative health coverage plans (like Tennessee and Vermont). Unfortunately, I don't believe repeal is an option anymore. In 2012, it was "Repeal and Replace." In 2014 and 2016, it will have to be "Repeal, Replace, and Transition."

[momsapplepie]

As usual, the Republicans will have to clean up a democratic mess.....

[Green Arrow]

As usual, the Republicans will have to clean up a democratic mess.....

Question is, how do you plan to do that?

[momsapplepie]

My first suggestion is to open up the market. Allow insurances policies to be interstestate. Competition will start bring down costs.

[GrassrootsConservative]

As usual, the Republicans will have to clean up a democratic mess.....

And then the Democrats will take credit for it like they did with everything in the Clinton presidency.

What we need to do is let the unaffordable uncaring act collapse around the ears of the American people so they'll wake up and see the true catastrophe caused by Democrat policies and institutions.

That's the only way to bring a true revolution. Anything else is just more idiotic kicking the can down the road stalling that our failing economy doesn't need.

[Green Arrow]

My first suggestion is to open up the market. Allow insurances policies to be interstestate. Competition will start bring down costs.

How? Give me some policy specifics. And you still haven't answered the question of what to do about the double digit millions that will lose coverage when the ACA is repealed.

[momsapplepie]

What has obumbles done about the millions that lost their insurance only to be forced into higher premiums outrageous deductibles or on the taxpayercosts>
I'm not a policy expert, but I know a screwed up when I see one.

[Chris]

My first suggestion is to open up the market. Allow insurances policies to be interstestate. Competition will start bring down costs.

I'd add to that separating insurance from work/employer so that as you change jobs you can keep your coverage. It's your policy, not the company's group policy.

[Green Arrow]

What has obumbles done about the millions that lost their insurance only to be forced into higher premiums outrageous deductibles or on the taxpayercosts>
I'm not a policy expert, but I know a screwed up when I see one.

This thread is about the GOP's next moves. We already know what Obama is doing, it's unfolding before our eyes.

[zelmo1234]

Question is, how do you plan to do that?

The Democrats set the mold!

If you like you ACA healthcare plan, you can keep it period!

So you repeal the ACA, insert and private system that allows for deductions and tax credits for insurance. you have massive TORT reform to lower the cost of treatment.

You try to get more people involved in health savings accounts with Catastrophic insurance coverage.

And you grand father in those in the ACA! until they either get an employer sponsored plan or they go onto Medicare at age 60 whatever it is now!

If this is a hard problem for our leaders? we are in big trouble!

[Kalkin]

So, now, you can't just repeal.
Yes, we can.

[Green Arrow]

Yes, we can.

And leave even more people without insurance than before Obamacare?

[Matty]

As usual, the Republicans will have to clean up a democratic mess.....
That's the jist of it, the liberal progressives have shit in the bed sheets and they want the Republicans to wash them.

[Kalkin]

And leave even more people without insurance than before Obamacare?
Insurance is a commodity. If people want it, they can get a job and pay for it.

[Matty]

Question is, how do you plan to do that?
Tell Hairy Carey to leave Mr. Bundy alone, get up off his ass and put the proposals from the Republicans up for a vote.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Insurance is a commodity. If people want it, they can get a job and pay for it.

:laugh: it's sad how incomprehensible that is to some people.

[KC]

Insurance is a commodity. If people want it, they can get a job and pay for it.

And you expect politicians to recognize this? Clearly, the point Greenie is trying to make is that it would take some serious political gall for Republicans to dismiss the large number of voters who are already enrolled under Obamacare.

[Matty]

How? Give me some policy specifics. And you still haven't answered the question of what to do about the double digit millions that will lose coverage when the ACA is repealed.


You guys are a trip! Here's the only plan you have. Make 50% of America works their asses off and pay Federal Taxes to pay for whatever it is the liberal progressives decide it is that the a takers are entitled too. Now you mentioned that 8 million have signed up, how many of those eight million do the makers have to pay for? 7.5 million?

[Kalkin]

And you expect politicians to recognize this? Clearly, the point Greenie is trying to make is that it would take some serious political gall for Republicans to dismiss the large number of voters who are already enrolled under Obamacare.
I don't care if they recognize it or not, it's the truth.

[Matty]

This thread is about the GOP's next moves. We already know what Obama is doing, it's unfolding before our eyes.
I think the Republicans are just going to let it implode! That would be the smart move. Oh and pat yourself on the back for supporting this shit, you created sixteen thousand new jobs in the IRS just to punish Americans who don't want to be forced to pay this new mandated tax. Obamacare is jut one new giant tax. Go progressive liberals.

[Matty]

And you expect politicians to recognize this? Clearly, the point Greenie is trying to make is that it would take some serious political gall for Republicans to dismiss the large number of voters who are already enrolled under Obamacare.


But how many have paid for it? How many are waiting for their freebies?

[KC]

I don't care if they recognize it or not, it's the truth.

Right, and the truth doesn't even come close to matching the political reality faced by Republicans, who, like everyone else, respond to incentives.

[Green Arrow]

Insurance is a commodity. If people want it, they can get a job and pay for it.

Many on ACA plans do have jobs and pay for it. The ones who don't will be booted when they fail to pay their premiums.

[Green Arrow]

You guys are a trip! Here's the only plan you have. Make 50% of America works their asses off and pay Federal Taxes to pay for whatever it is the liberal progressives decide it is that the a takers are entitled too. Now you mentioned that 8 million have signed up, how many of those eight million do the makers have to pay for? 7.5 million?

Where did I advocate this plan?

[Green Arrow]

I think the Republicans are just going to let it implode! That would be the smart move. Oh and pat yourself on the back for supporting this shit, you created sixteen thousand new jobs in the IRS just to punish Americans who don't want to be forced to pay this new mandated tax. Obamacare is jut one new giant tax. Go progressive liberals.

I have never supported Obama or Obamacare.

[Matty]

Many on ACA plans do have jobs and pay for it. The ones who don't will be booted when they fail to pay their premiums.
When the insurance companies don't make the money the sleazy liberals promised them they would make what will happen?

[Matty]

Where did I advocate this plan?
Uh huh! Sure!

[Green Arrow]

Uh huh! Sure!

So you can't show where I ever advocated that.

[Green Arrow]

When the insurance companies don't make the money the sleazy liberals promised them they would make what will happen?

The industry will probably collapse.

[Matty]

So you can't show where I ever advocated that.
It's your path to single payer. Single payer is a myth. It's 50/50 payer, 50% pay 50% don't just like we have going on now.

[Matty]

The industry will probably collapse.
No hell it won't, the sleazy liberals have already promised them huge subsidies off the backs of the 50% makers.

[Kalkin]

Right, and the truth doesn't even come close to matching the political reality faced by Republicans, who, like everyone else, respond to incentives.
I am true to myself. A politician is only valuable to me when their actions coincide with my views, regardless of the label they wear.

[Kalkin]

Many on ACA plans do have jobs and pay for it. The ones who don't will be booted when they fail to pay their premiums.
Those who can afford insurance will continue to have it, if they so desire. Those who can't afford it will be free to increase their earnings and purchase it or go without. Just like any other commodity.

[Kalkin]

So you can't show where I ever advocated that.
You advocate a worse, more marxist/socialist plan called single payer.

[Green Arrow]

It's your path to single payer. Single payer is a myth. It's 50/50 payer, 50% pay 50% don't just like we have going on now.

That is not how it functions anywhere it is in play.

[Green Arrow]

You advocate a worse, more marxist/socialist plan called single payer.

For a terrible idea, it works quite well in most of the countries in which it is tried.

[Kalkin]

For a terrible idea, it works quite well in most of the countries in which it is tried.
At what cost? No thanks, I'll take the liberty of being responsible for my own health.

[Green Arrow]

At what cost?

You seem to be an expert on these systems. Why don't you tell me?

[Matty]

That is not how it functions anywhere it is in play.
How will it function here. Give minute details!

[Peter1469]

Me too. But I can afford it. We do need a single payer system for those that can't. But it should be bare bones and extra cost effective.

[Kalkin]

You seem to be an expert on these systems.
I never claimed such a thing. I know marxist wealth redistribution schemes when I see them, though, and I oppose them.

Why don't you tell me?
I already did: liberty, specifically the freedom to choose. Pay better attention.

[Ransom]

How? Give me some policy specifics. And you still haven't answered the question of what to do about the double digit millions that will lose coverage when the ACA is repealed.

And the millions who lost their coverage due to Obamacare when promised otherwise.... 'deal with it?'

[lynn]

The ACA is not going to be repealed even if Republicans replace all of the Democrats. Because really the only thing left to repeal is the individual mandate since everything about this law was changed to some degree. The government is going to make a lot of money on all those new additional taxes. The Republicans are not going to change it if they get elected.

The American citizens are screwed no matter who is in office since we have no paid lobbyist that represents the people's voice or the political funding needed to fight for us.

[zelmo1234]

The ACA is not going to be repealed even if Republicans replace all of the Democrats. Because really the only thing left to repeal is the individual mandate since everything about this law was changed to some degree. The government is going to make a lot of money on all those new additional taxes. The Republicans are not going to change it if they get elected.

The American citizens are screwed no matter who is in office since we have no paid lobbyist that represents the people's voice or the political funding needed to fight for us.

There are three things that this bill does.

#1 as you pointed out this is a Tax bill, it has very little to do with health insurance! but there are over 200 new taxes in the bill

#2 The bill cuts the quality of care to older citizens, this is done on purpose, they are living too long for our current system and that is just too expensive.

#3 it seeks to transfer wealth from the middle class to the poor and to the rich! Because one gets the benefits for free and the other can afford to pay cash, the guy in the middle is subsidizing both!

[Green Arrow]

And the millions who lost their coverage due to Obamacare when promised otherwise.... 'deal with it?'

What are we supposed to do about it, Ransom? It'll be another two years before your repeal allies have a chance at getting elected in sufficient numbers to do anything about it. Those people are just screwed. I don't like it any more than you do, but it is what it is.

[Green Arrow]

I never claimed such a thing. I know marxist wealth redistribution schemes when I see them, though, and I oppose them.

It's not Marxist, though. It's social democracy.


I already did: liberty, specifically the freedom to choose. Pay better attention.

That's an emotional argument that has no basis in fact. I've yet to encounter a country with a single-payer system where the single-payer system itself infringed on liberty and choice, except maybe Britain, and Britain is not typical. Britain built their system terribly and manages it poorly. Norway has a far better single-payer system.

[Matty]

Don't ya just love it when democrats screw over Americans?

[zelmo1234]

What are we supposed to do about it, Ransom? It'll be another two years before your repeal allies have a chance at getting elected in sufficient numbers to do anything about it. Those people are just screwed. I don't like it any more than you do, but it is what it is.

Nobody, can explain to me why those that chose the ACA plans can't be Grandfathered in, and keep them if they want too?

So lets say you are on Medicaid expansion! You stay on it with premiums that raise at the same rate the healthcare rises!

If you get a job and get employer provided then if you want to change you can if not (unlike Obamacare, you can keep what you have)

I think that makes perfect sense!

[Kalkin]

It's not Marxist, though. It's social democracy.

Let's look at the facts:

Obamacare:
1. Everyone is being forced to purchase insurance (or pay a fine).
2. Minimum standards are mandated, even though many will never require said coverage (males/maternity).
3. Those of lesser income receive subsidies that pay part or all of their coverage.
4. The wealthy do not receive subsidies. Their cost goes up by virtue of the mandated minimum coverages.
5. One of the central tenets of marxism is "from each according to their means, to each according to their needs"

The previous five statements are facts. Do I need to connect the dots further?

Now, single payer:
1. The wealthy pay far more income taxes then the poor (who often pay nothing). The wealthy also pay at a graduated rate, referred to as "progressive taxation".
2. Healthcare costs are paid by the government, from the taxes collected.
3. One of the central tenets of marxism is "from each according to their means, to each according to their needs"

The previous three statements are also facts. Do I need to connect the dots further?

[Green Arrow]

Nobody, can explain to me why those that chose the ACA plans can't be Grandfathered in, and keep them if they want too?

So lets say you are on Medicaid expansion! You stay on it with premiums that raise at the same rate the healthcare rises!

If you get a job and get employer provided then if you want to change you can if not (unlike Obamacare, you can keep what you have)

I think that makes perfect sense!

Tell that to Congress. They seem to disagree.

[Green Arrow]

Don't ya just love it when democrats screw over Americans?

Where I stand, I've been screwed by both Democrats and Republicans.

[Green Arrow]

Let's look at the facts:

Obamacare:
1. Everyone is being forced to purchase insurance (or pay a fine).
2. Minimum standards are mandated, even though many will never require said coverage (males/maternity).
3. Those of lesser income receive subsidies that pay part or all of their coverage.
4. The wealthy do not receive subsidies. Their cost goes up by virtue of the mandated minimum coverages.
5. One of the central tenets of marxism is "from each according to their means, to each according to their needs"

The previous five statements are facts. Do I need to connect the dots further?

Now, single payer:
1. The wealthy pay far more income taxes then the poor (who often pay nothing). The wealthy also pay at a graduated rate, referred to as "progressive taxation".
2. Healthcare costs are paid by the government, from the taxes collected.
3. One of the central tenets of marxism is "from each according to their means, to each according to their needs"

The previous three statements are also facts. Do I need to connect the dots further?

Why do you think big businesses like Walmart and the big insurance and pharmaceutical companies lobbied for Obamacare, Kalkin?

[Kalkin]

Why do you think big businesses like Walmart and the big insurance and pharmaceutical companies lobbied for Obamacare, Kalkin?
Before I answer that, please tell me you see the marxist connection I've made with both obamacare and single payer. Can we agree that they are, at their core, Marxist wealth redistribution plans?

[Matty]

Where I stand, I've been screwed by both Democrats and Republicans.
How did the Republicans screw over you? I'm seriously interested. It's been so long since they've been in power I need a refresher!

[Green Arrow]

Before I answer that, please tell me you see the marxist connection I've made with both obamacare and single payer. Can we agree that they are, at their core, Marxist wealth redistribution plans?

On the surface, they look Marxist, sure.

[Green Arrow]

How did the Republicans screw over you? I'm seriously interested. It's been so long since they've been in power I need a refresher!

The Iraq War cost me a cousin. The Afghanistan War cost a very dear friend of mine her husband and her happiness. Both wars cost our country countless billions. Drone strikes weakened our nation's image abroad. The PATRIOT Act and resulting surveillance state took away my freedom. The NDAA went one step further and took even more freedom from me.

In my home state, which is controlled by a Republican supermajority, my governor hired a Chicago construction firm to build new state buildings, which hurts my local economy because now Tennessee firms are not being contracted to build their government's buildings.

[Kalkin]

On the surface, they look Marxist, sure.
You imply that they aren't, though, by your wording. Do you not see the wealth redistribution from the haves to the have nots inherent in both?

[Matty]

The Iraq War cost me a cousin. The Afghanistan War cost a very dear friend of mine her husband and her happiness. Both wars cost our country countless billions. Drone strikes weakened our nation's image abroad. The PATRIOT Act and resulting surveillance state took away my freedom. The NDAA went one step further and took even more freedom from me.

In my home state, which is controlled by a Republican supermajority, my governor hired a Chicago construction firm to build new state buildings, which hurts my local economy because now Tennessee firms are not being contracted to build their government's buildings.


You do know that both of those wars passed through the correct channels, congress passed the authorization bilaterally? When have the Republicans ever passed a bill that affects every citizen in the USA without a single vote from the opposition. So now tell me why it is that you blame the Republicans? Do I need to drag up the Clinton, Pelosi, and Reid speeches in favor of those wars?

[Green Arrow]

You imply that they aren't, though, by your wording. Do you not see the wealth redistribution from the haves to the have nots inherent in both?

We'd have to start at the foundation and work our way up. Starting in the middle causes confusion. For example, wealth redistribution is not unique to any ideology, it is inherent to all ideologies. Any time you lend or borrow money, or are paid/pay someone, you are redistributing wealth. All ideology determines is HOW that wealth is distributed, not whether or not it IS distributed.

[Green Arrow]

You do know that both of those wars passed through the correct channels, congress passed the authorization bilaterally?

Of course. I'm not an idiot. Do Republicans suddenly lose responsibility just because Democrats had a hand in it too?


When have the Republicans ever passed a bill that affects every citizen in the USA without a single vote from the opposition. So now tell me why it is that you blame the Republicans? Do I need to drag up the Clinton, Pelosi, and Reid speeches in favor of those wars?

No, you don't. Do I need to drag up all the Republican speeches in favor?

[Ransom]

We'd have to start at the foundation and work our way up. Starting in the middle causes confusion. For example, wealth redistribution is not unique to any ideology, it is inherent to all ideologies. Any time you lend or borrow money, or are paid/pay someone, you are redistributing wealth. All ideology determines is HOW that wealth is distributed, not whether or not it IS distributed.

But...some ideologies push to demonize those with the wealth, others convince populations they're entitled to benefits via redistribution.

[Kalkin]

We'd have to start at the foundation and work our way up. Starting in the middle causes confusion. For example, wealth redistribution is not unique to any ideology, it is inherent to all ideologies. Any time you lend or borrow money, or are paid/pay someone, you are redistributing wealth. All ideology determines is HOW that wealth is distributed, not whether or not it IS distributed.
Lending and borrowing is voluntary, therefore not marxist. Voluntary wealth redistribution is compatible with freedom, involuntary is not. Hope that clears it up.

[lynn]

Nobody, can explain to me why those that chose the ACA plans can't be Grandfathered in, and keep them if they want too?

So lets say you are on Medicaid expansion! You stay on it with premiums that raise at the same rate the healthcare rises!

If you get a job and get employer provided then if you want to change you can if not (unlike Obamacare, you can keep what you have)

I think that makes perfect sense!


People on Medicaid do not pay any premiums. The state will assign them to a private insurance carrier which are managed care plans where the federal government is fully paying on these members for 3 years at an average cost of $3500 per member per year. Out of that amount only $2500 per person is paid for their healthcare per year while the rest is profit and admin cost.

All that were grandfathered in were self-insured employers and they had already doubled their premium shares prior to the ACA mandate went into effect. This was done since they cannot raise those premiums for their grandfathered period of time. If they do, the grandfather clause is terminated.

My spouse works for WellsFargo and they are grandfathered in and are self-insured.

[lynn]

The fact that the last generation baby boomer just turned 50 this year and with 4 million more people in this age bracket of 45-54 over younger age brackets is the main reason for the ACA mandate. In order to decrease this population group you have to control their healthcare so they don't make it to retirement age.

What better way to do this is by increasing the deductibles so people will shy away from getting healthcare. The reason why the population is living longer in their senior years is largely due to all of the medical advances they received in the 90's that had little to no deductibles in that time frame.

Treatment for early diagnosis of certain cancers and the endless number of stents put in to prevent major heart attacks was a major factor in why many made it to retirement age and beyond.

[zelmo1234]

Tell that to Congress. They seem to disagree.

Well they are part of the problem! That is for sure!

I am still holding out hope that we can elect adults someday!