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kilgram
04-27-2014, 06:55 PM
The British and German propaganda has expanded that the Spanish inquisition was extremely brutish. That is a myth. The Spanish Inquisition never used the handmaiden. It was something did in Germany. Many of the crimes that the Spanish Inquisition are a lie.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lgkltrqoTA

Spanish inquisition for example was benign with witchery compared with other European courts, civil and religious.

Mister D
04-27-2014, 07:01 PM
That is correct. The popular image of the Spanish Inquisition as well as Spanish activity in the New World is the result of Protestant propaganda.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Legend

nathanbforrest45
04-27-2014, 08:03 PM
And the Bush administration and Fox News

Peter1469
04-27-2014, 08:04 PM
The Spanish Inquisition was a natural response from a people recently freed from Muslim occupation. I don't want to look the numbers up now, but can latter if anyone really cares, but of the tens of thousands convicted less than 2000 were put to death over a couple of decades. It is pretty lame as a mass murder story.

Mister D
04-27-2014, 08:08 PM
And the Bush administration and Fox News

:huh:

Mister D
04-27-2014, 08:14 PM
The Spanish Inquisition was a natural response from a people recently freed from Muslim occupation. I don't want to look the numbers up now, but can latter if anyone really cares, but of the tens of thousands convicted less than 2000 were put to death over a couple of decades. It is pretty lame as a mass murder story.

That's the popular notion though. It's interesting to note that this is dragged out by those seeking to demonstrate the horrors of organized religion when their current government has killed many more people in much less time. All in a crusade for democracy and human rights which are the dogma of secular religion.

Newpublius
04-27-2014, 09:04 PM
The British and German propaganda has expanded that the Spanish inquisition was extremely brutish. That is a myth. The Spanish Inquisition never used the handmaiden. It was something did in Germany. Many of the crimes that the Spanish Inquisition are a lie.

Whatever, look, Spain was Spain, the Spanish Empire, a very strong empire no less, and by no means doing anything that other empires weren't, but make no mistake about it, it was fucking brutal, millions and millions of people died. In Spain itself, the Iberian peninsula had been at war with the Moors/Caliphate of Cordoba, Grenada and other Muslim states from the time of Pelayo, Ferdinand and Isabella's victory over the last Muslim state saw the expulsion of the Muslims and I think at some point the Jews as well.....

At which point the New World opened up and you conquered half the known freakin' world, so please, give it a rest. No Spanish apologism....just because you're Spanish, Kilgram.....

Perianne
04-27-2014, 09:06 PM
We need an American Inquisition.

Newpublius
04-27-2014, 09:06 PM
The Spanish Inquisition was a natural response from a people recently freed from Muslim occupation.

Well not quite 'occupation' the Muslims pushed the Visigoths to the brink but they were there for hundreds of years, the Reconquista back the other way was also slow. This wasn't like the Germans occupying France in WWII.....they were ethnically cleansing the Iberian peninsula

Peter1469
04-27-2014, 09:18 PM
And after the liberation of the Iberian Peninsula there were people who conspired with the Muslims to allow an invasion. It was a really big deal and lead to the Papal Bull calling for the Inquisition. Even so it was over two years after the Papal Bull before any courts were set up. And they were meticulous in everything they did- you can read the translations all that you like. Considering the time period, the Spanish Inquisition was tame.


Whatever, look, Spain was Spain, the Spanish Empire, a very strong empire no less, and by no means doing anything that other empires weren't, but make no mistake about it, it was fucking brutal, millions and millions of people died. In Spain itself, the Iberian peninsula had been at war with the Moors/Caliphate of Cordoba, Grenada and other Muslim states from the time of Pelayo, Ferdinand and Isabella's victory over the last Muslim state saw the expulsion of the Muslims and I think at some point the Jews as well.....

At which point the New World opened up and you conquered half the known freakin' world, so please, give it a rest. No Spanish apologism....just because you're Spanish, Kilgram.....

Newpublius
04-27-2014, 09:31 PM
And after the liberation of the Iberian Peninsula there were people who conspired with the Muslims to allow an invasion. It was a really big deal and lead to the Papal Bull calling for the Inquisition. Even so it was over two years after the Papal Bull before any courts were set up. And they were meticulous in everything they did- you can read the translations all that you like. Considering the time period, the Spanish Inquisition was tame.

I'm viewing this period of history much differently. Prior to 1492, which by every definition is a macrohistorical inflection point, the Islamic armies were pinching, not the West, but Christendom, and of course allies changed, sometimes the Muslims would have Christian allies of course, but the Turks were at the gate of Vienna sometime in the 1500s and the Moors were in Spain finally being stopped, essentially in France by Charles Martel, that event was much earlier.

It was such that the English and the French aligned (later the French would align with the Turks for quite some time since the French were opposed to the Austrians) and flung an army at the Holy Land during the Crusade, and there were many Crusades.

I'm not singling out the Spanish for being especially cruel here, but their cruelty mathced those of other Christian states, AND Muslim states (Muslims would make raids on Christian lands and take people into white slavery).

It was unequivocally a clash of civilizations, to a certain extent the Muslim world still kind've views it that way. Its not Al-Andalus, its Spain, and for that to happen, the Muslims needed to be chased out, and make no quibbles about it, they really were.....

There were many 'convert or die' moments and to a certain extent there are MANY crypto-communities of people who were facially Christian but were hiding their Judaism or Islamic heritage. Some communities were so effective at their 'crypto' status that those communities have forgotten their original heritage (you can't tell young children or they'll tell).....

On top of the Iberian Peninsula let's not forget the subsequent Catholic/Protestant rift, also in and of itself absolutely nasty....heresy, apostasy....this shit was no joke back then, Peter.

I'm a Catholic and today I reside in the US and I don't think anything of being a Catholic, but there was a day when Catholics were literally second class citizens in the British Empire (read about the Gordon's Riots), or for instance certain revolutionary sentiments - Liberty, Property, No Stamp, or calls for 'No King, No Popery' with respect to the New England view of the Quebec Act, which was bizarre because they wound up aligning themselves with of all people, the Catholic French....but....whatever, the point is these religious distinctions were big, HUGE....

http://bishop.jmstanton.com/smu/images_smu/smu_2/map_Spanish_Empire_16thC_675x324.png

This map tells the story.

kilgram
04-27-2014, 09:42 PM
Whatever, look, Spain was Spain, the Spanish Empire, a very strong empire no less, and by no means doing anything that other empires weren't, but make no mistake about it, it was fucking brutal, millions and millions of people died. In Spain itself, the Iberian peninsula had been at war with the Moors/Caliphate of Cordoba, Grenada and other Muslim states from the time of Pelayo, Ferdinand and Isabella's victory over the last Muslim state saw the expulsion of the Muslims and I think at some point the Jews as well.....

At which point the New World opened up and you conquered half the known freakin' world, so please, give it a rest. No Spanish apologism....just because you're Spanish, Kilgram.....
I don't do apologism. More because I have Spanish roots.

But let's face the reality. The Spanish cruelty is mythified. They were no worse than English. The English also had their own Inquisition and it was pretty brutal, even more than the Spanish.

During those times all states were brutal. Everyone. No one had possible justification of the atrocities commited. Spanish Inquisition was intolerable and unacceptable, however if we situate it in the times period it was no different from the different of European courts.

Newpublius
04-27-2014, 09:48 PM
I don't do apologism. More because I have Spanish roots.

Well, that's what it is actually. You're biased for Spain. Stop making excuses, Spain was a hegemonic power which built a massive empire. Invariably to do that, and the British Empire was no exception, you have to kill many people to do that. Spain was no exception. I'm not doing this to belittle 'Spanish' people or to make other people look better or worse, you can put the British Empire, the Ottoman Empire, the Roman Empire and the Mongols altogether (or the United States, we're not weighing comparative fault here)....and the result is the same, a disgusting display of violence and dealth that subjugated their fellow man. That's what empires actually are....

Peter1469
04-27-2014, 10:00 PM
The 1492 reconquest of Iberia was well before the Catholic Protestant split. So that doesn't belong in this discussion.

After Spain was liberated from the Muslim hordes there were people who conspired to help Muslim armies retake what they had lost. That was the target of the Spanish Inquisition. And it was supported almost into non-existence.





I'm viewing this period of history much differently. Prior to 1492, which by every definition is a macrohistorical inflection point, the Islamic armies were pinching, not the West, but Christendom, and of course allies changed, sometimes the Muslims would have Christian allies of course, but the Turks were at the gate of Vienna sometime in the 1500s and the Moors were in Spain finally being stopped, essentially in France by Charles Martel, that event was much earlier.

It was such that the English and the French aligned (later the French would align with the Turks for quite some time since the French were opposed to the Austrians) and flung an army at the Holy Land during the Crusade, and there were many Crusades.

I'm not singling out the Spanish for being especially cruel here, but their cruelty mathced those of other Christian states, AND Muslim states (Muslims would make raids on Christian lands and take people into white slavery).

It was unequivocally a clash of civilizations, to a certain extent the Muslim world still kind've views it that way. Its not Al-Andalus, its Spain, and for that to happen, the Muslims needed to be chased out, and make no quibbles about it, they really were.....

There were many 'convert or die' moments and to a certain extent there are MANY crypto-communities of people who were facially Christian but were hiding their Judaism or Islamic heritage. Some communities were so effective at their 'crypto' status that those communities have forgotten their original heritage (you can't tell young children or they'll tell).....

On top of the Iberian Peninsula let's not forget the subsequent Catholic/Protestant rift, also in and of itself absolutely nasty....heresy, apostasy....this shit was no joke back then, Peter.

I'm a Catholic and today I reside in the US and I don't think anything of being a Catholic, but there was a day when Catholics were literally second class citizens in the British Empire (read about the Gordon's Riots), or for instance certain revolutionary sentiments - Liberty, Property, No Stamp, or calls for 'No King, No Popery' with respect to the New England view of the Quebec Act, which was bizarre because they wound up aligning themselves with of all people, the Catholic French....but....whatever, the point is these religious distinctions were big, HUGE....

http://bishop.jmstanton.com/smu/images_smu/smu_2/map_Spanish_Empire_16thC_675x324.png

This map tells the story.

nathanbforrest45
04-27-2014, 10:13 PM
:huh:


Its a "who gives a shit what the Spaniards did or didn't do 500 years ago?"

Dr. Who
04-27-2014, 10:17 PM
Its a "who gives a shit what the Spaniards did or didn't do 500 years ago?"

It's the History Room - what do you expect, current events?

Bob
04-27-2014, 10:33 PM
The Spanish Inquisition was a natural response from a people recently freed from Muslim occupation. I don't want to look the numbers up now, but can latter if anyone really cares, but of the tens of thousands convicted less than 2000 were put to death over a couple of decades. It is pretty lame as a mass murder story.

LMAO


I do not presently intend to dig a hole and pretend I know about this. This earth is vast and each area has history. Nobody can know all of the earth's history. Well, if they do, they have a lot of information and I tip my hat to them.

Newpublius
04-27-2014, 10:57 PM
The 1492 reconquest of Iberia was well before the Catholic Protestant split. So that doesn't belong in this discussion.

True, but the Inquisition overlapped it. In Spain, they dealt with very few Protestants, after all it was a Catholic country, the Catholic/Protestant dichotomy was primarily in countries where Protestantism was strong and a Catholic residual population remained. The point about bringing up the Catholic/Protestant split wasn't necessarily about Spain but to illuminate the general lack of religious tolerance that prevailed during the era.

Religion and the state were HEAVILY intertwined, the Establishment Clause wouldn't be written into the US Constitution for hundreds of years and the reason was their experience in Europe -- the Puritans were escaping religious persecution.

Even look at Arianism. Strange word, but basically its just non-trinitarian Christianity, ie Jesus as the son of God is NOT God. Well when Arianism was en vogue if you declared it, I'd kill you, salt the earth you had walked on and make you convert to the correct believe. The conflict between trinitarian Christians and the Arian Christians was such that it marked Christianity and made it stress its trinitarian nature even more than it otherwise would.....


The overall religious discrimination could wax and wane as the case may be. Spain, no exception, but for instance we see in Spain an outright expulsion of the Jews.....but that was because what the Inquisition was was really the state's method of enforcing the order to leave or convert. So, if you farcically converted and they caught you, that was going to be a problem.

Newpublius
04-27-2014, 11:01 PM
Its a "who gives a shit what the Spaniards did or didn't do 500 years ago?"

The history is absolutely fascinating. It unfolded over hundreds of years. Islam stormed out of the desert and blew apart the Byzantine Empire, it was nipping at Christendom. The story in Spain, if Martel didn't stop it in France, would've seen Islam in Paris, and minarets instead of Notre Dame. Who knows how history would've been different. The resurgence of the West in the late Renaissance period pushes the Muslims back, but only back to what was essentially the Eastern Roman Empire plus North Africa.

From Pelayo to Empire, read it, or just peruse the wiki articles at your leisure.

Its better than anything on TV....


but but make no mistake about it, the Inquisition was part and parcel of what was an "ethnic cleansing" program based on religion and for the most part the subsequent results and demographics in Spain show that the policy largely achieved it's desired goals.