Question for our Conservatives

[Mister D]

What is left to conserve?

[Peter1469]

Certainly not European royalty. The modern American thing called conservationism is about small government.

[Mister D]

Certainly not European royalty. The modern American thing called conservationism is about small government.

Which was lost long ago. So, for you, a conservative is simply someone who believes in small government. OK. I'm just looking for some self-descriptions here.

[Peter1469]

Right. I know my side has lost.

[zelmo1234]

I think for me it is a return to the Constitution and more States rights and less federal control

This is a pipe dream in the current environment, However we do have a financial collapse coming unless I miss my guess, and for me that is when federalism has a chance to return.

Liberalism/ progressivism and the nanny state will finally have to tell the people the truth, there is no free lunch.

So for me to try and put politicians in place that would turn us around before the collapse is important, but preparing for that collapse is just as important to me!

[Mister D]

Right. I know my side has lost.

It's an odd term. Obviously, you aren't for the status quo in terms of the state's role. You're against it!

[Newpublius]

What is left to conserve?

Remember that movie, Joan of Arc? The movie, not the actual history, but during the Hundred Years War a England held half of France, in a sense, England had been conquered by the Norman Kingdom and the Hundred Years War is really a kind of French Civil War.

the king of France asks himself in the movie, "I've already lost half of France, what else do I have to lose"

and his advisor wryly retorts, "the other half"

[Perianne]

To me, a conservative is someone who takes responsibility for himself/herself and her own.

[Mister D]

I think for me it is a return to the Constitution and more States rights and less federal control

This is a pipe dream in the current environment, However we do have a financial collapse coming unless I miss my guess, and for me that is when federalism has a chance to return.

Liberalism/ progressivism and the nanny state will finally have to tell the people the truth, there is no free lunch.

So for me to try and put politicians in place that would turn us around before the collapse is important, but preparing for that collapse is just as important to me!

Ah, federalism. OK.

[Peter1469]

It's an odd term. Obviously, you aren't for the status quo in terms of the state's role. You're against it!


What state role? That has been eroded.

[Kabuki Joe]

What is left to conserve?

...everything...living in excess is bad...

[Mister D]

What state role? That has been eroded.

State as in government. not state as in South Carolina.

[Mister D]

So we have federalism and limited government so far. Also, Peri touched on a national disposition or character. Rugged individualism, if you will.

[zelmo1234]

And I think that you could find consensus with all of us when you combine all three.

It would be interesting to see where we would be if the politicians would have respected the constitution! But that did not happen so here we are

[Perianne]

Also, Peri touched on a national disposition or character.

Think of how many problems would be solved if everyone took as much responsibility for themselves as is possible.

[Mister D]

Think of how many problems would be solved if everyone took as much responsibility for themselves as is possible.

I'm not a conservative and my intention is not to argue the points. My interest here is in how you see yourselves.

[pjohns]

I think for me it is a return to the Constitution and more States rights and less federal control

I agree completely!

And the best way to regain that control is simply to assert it, unequivocally and without hesitation or exception--not to meekly ask the federal courts to allow it.

[patrickt]

I'm not a conservative and my intention is not to argue the points. My interest here is in how you see yourselves.

No, your interest is to have people respond and then you define what they said without paying much attention to their comment.

I also noticed that the comments about the Constitution got ignored. Are you considering the elimination of the Constitution an accomplished fact?

[zelmo1234]

No, your interest is to have people respond and then you define what they said without paying much attention to their comment.

I also noticed that the comments about the Constitution got ignored. Are you considering the elimination of the Constitution an accomplished fact?

Actually I think for him it was covered when he said Federalism! I think to be that a return to federalism is a return to the constitution

[Refugee]

I’m not a complete conservative either, I believe in a limited amount of socialism, but . . . Small government with low taxation. A minimum of regulation. Self-responsibility. An acknowledgement of equal opportunities but not equal outcomes . . . .

[Mister D]

No, your interest is to have people respond and then you define what they said without paying much attention to their comment.

I also noticed that the comments about the Constitution got ignored. Are you considering the elimination of the Constitution an accomplished fact?

lol Have you seen me do so? Didn't think so. Take a nap, silly old man.

[darroll]

We can conserve our old memories.
We now live in la, la land

[Mister D]

No, your interest is to have people respond and then you define what they said without paying much attention to their comment.

I also noticed that the comments about the Constitution got ignored. Are you considering the elimination of the Constitution an accomplished fact?

Oh, and do you have something to say about the topic besides "libruls suck"?

[KC]

I agree with Peter.

@Mister D (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=4): Perhaps a more useful way to think about Conservatism is not as an attitude towards the status quo, but rather an attitude towards the use of power in society. In that sense, however, I guess a different group of people are considered conservative, but one that describes the American right more holistically IMO.

[Kalkin]

What is left to conserve?
I think conservatism is about retaining the fundamental principles that made this country great: Liberty, personal responsibility, minimal government, and voluntary charity.
IOW, don't tread on me.

[Refugee]

I think conservatism is about retaining the fundamental principles that made this country great: Liberty, personal responsibility, minimal government, and voluntary charity.
IOW, don't tread on me.

Yes, in the UK it's seen as traditional voting, a sort of, as it was not as it should be. The family as a unit, Christian values, Protestant work ethic and a bit less gay rights, wealth distribution and government interference.

[Chris]

So we have federalism and limited government so far. Also, Peri touched on a national disposition or character. Rugged individualism, if you will.

I think that's only the libertarian side of American conservatism, a side argued earliest by the new conservative Bill Buckley back in the 50s, Goldwater in the 60s, as promoting virtue by living an example of it. But then and now there is also a side of American conservatism, led perhaps by Russel Kirk, who believed the role or rule of the state was to not only promote but provide virtue.

If conservatism, American conservatism, were just the former, I'd identify with it. But it's also the latter.

IMO, what liberals feared of the Tea Parties was that it represented the latter branch of conservatism when what it represented was the form.

[Perianne]

I'm not a conservative and my intention is not to argue the points.

I was not intending to argue with you. I was simply "thinking" out loud.

Besides, when do I EVER argue with anyone?

[Mister D]

I agree with Peter.

@Mister D (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=4): Perhaps a more useful way to think about conservatives is not as an attitude towards the status quo, but rather an attitude towards the use of power in society. In that sense, however, I guess a different group of people are considered conservative, but one that describes the American right more holistically IMO.

Oh, I agree. To speak of the "status quo" is far too simplistic especially outside of a specific context. I mentioned it because it has been offered here repeatedly as a general description of conservatism.

[Perianne]

Oh, I agree. To speak of the "status quo" is far too simplistic especially outside of a specific context. I mentioned it because it has been offered here repeatedly as a general description of conservatism.

Why can't society change without violating the Constitution? I too think "status quo" is too simplistic.

[kilgram]

What I see about conservative in America and other countries like Spain:

- Defense of free market

- Defense of traditional values like family, religion..

- Defense of status quo

[KC]

Oh, I agree. To speak of the "status quo" is far too simplistic especially outside of a specific context. I mentioned it because it has been offered here repeatedly as a general description of conservatism.

I'm curious what you think American conservatism is, given your somewhat unique perspective as someone influenced by the European new right.

[Perianne]

What I see about conservative in America and other countries like Spain:

- Defense of free market

- Defense of traditional values like family, religion..

- Defense of status quo

I agree except for "status quo".

[KC]

What I see about conservative in America and other countries like Spain:

- Defense of free market

- Defense of traditional values like family, religion..

- Defense of status quo

If the free market is not the status quo doesn't your definition become problematic?

[Liberal Doses]

To me, a conservative is someone who takes responsibility for himself/herself and her own.

In addition, it is a person who can think for themselves and does not rely upon the collective to do so. A conservative is not afraid of differing opinions, they have enough confidence in their own that they do not feel the need to stamp out opposing points of view.


Obama does not lack confidence in his tyrannical, communist agenda when he attacks Fox News, for he knows they are spot on when it comes to his deliberate downgrading of America for the larger progressive interests of a turn to communism. Where Obama lacks confidence is in his minions, his constituency. He fears they could become enlightened to the truth. That Fox News could change their minds on some of the key issues. Obama fears Fox for this reason. He fears Fox News so much that he has singled them out on more than one occasion, including a State of the Union address! He claims the soft-baller interviewer, O'Reily, was unfair to him. Well, boo-fn'-hoo. And to think he is our Commander in Chief!


If Fox News was just a bunch of nonsense, he wouldn't need to say anything. He is worried though that the truth might sway the collective thought. He shouldn't give liberals that much credit, they are not independent enough nor bright enough to make judgement calls on things on their own.

[kilgram]

If the free market is not the status quo doesn't your definition become problematic?
It was somewhat of conclusion the part of status quo.

Because defend traditional values and free market is defend the today's aristocracy, it is: status quo.

When I find some revolutionary and that a conservative changes anything I am going to believe that they are not pro-status quo. But the word conservative means conservation. Conservative means keeping the system. If you don't want to keep the system you are something else.

[KC]

In addition, it is a person who can think for themselves and does not rely upon the collective to do so.

The same can be said for many progressives, libertarians, anarchists, etc. There are sheep and free thinkers in every ideological movement.

[kilgram]

To me, a conservative is someone who takes responsibility for himself/herself and her own.
Well, then I believe that I am conservative.

[KC]

It was somewhat of conclusion the part of status quo.

Because defend traditional values and free market is defend the today's aristocracy, it is: status quo.

When I find some revolutionary and that a conservative changes anything I am going to believe that they are not pro-status quo. But the word conservative means conservation. Conservative means keeping the system. If you don't want to keep the system you are something else.

Even when the free market everywhere is inhibited by the state? Clearly markets are less free when they are regulated.

[Perianne]

I also find that conservatives will more openly disagree with each other while liberals tend to close ranks.

[kilgram]

I also find that conservatives will more openly disagree with each other while liberals tend to close ranks.
It is curious because in Spain it would be said exactlyt he opposite.

In Spain is the conservative who act like a zombi.

I suppose that maybe are the differences of culture.

[Perianne]

It is curious because in Spain it would be said exactlyt he opposite.

In Spain is the conservative who act like a zombi.

I suppose that maybe are the differences of culture.

Of course it is different there. Spain is on the opposite side of the world.

[kilgram]

Even when the free market everywhere is inhibited by the state? Clearly markets are less free when they are regulated.
Clearly, but the irony is that most of conservative they don't have problems with that regulation if they can take profit from it.

But, free market is more an area of liberalism than conservatism. Conservatism focus in the status quo. It is traditional values, therefore big state in this area to keep those traditional values... And some distorted defense of free market.

I did by purpose to say first what they say to defend, and later going introducing the buts.

[Bob]

What is left to conserve?

I still can't wrap my mind around one word descriptions.

I prefer to say I highly respect and endorse the work of the founders, though not in all respects completely good, but for the part that covers the system of Government, very good.

We can trace back to the era where the constitution became a paper to be changed by the left and being modified.

Can we turn back the pages to say we conserved, I hope so.

[Mister D]

I'm curious what you think American conservatism is, given your somewhat unique perspective as someone influenced by the European new right.

I see American conservatives today as one faction of what has long been (at least since the end of the Civil War) a thoroughly liberal economic, intellectual, and political elite. This faction gives priority to the free market whereas the other gives priority to equality all sides in any political contest share the same liberal premises. Since 1945, we see a similar situation in Europe. It's interesting to see a Spaniard describe conservatism as a defense of the free market. You can see how Americanized Europe has become.

[Refugee]

Everybody makes some profit, those on welfare make a 100% profit and complain life’s not fair? :smiley:

[Kalkin]

I was not intending to argue with you. I was simply "thinking" out loud.

Besides, when do I EVER argue with anyone?
Me and you argue all the time, subliminally.

[Dr. Who]

I think that most conservatives are statists. Some are simply fiscal conservatives who don't want their tax dollars squandered on inefficiencies, some are social conservatives who essentially want to maintain traditional values and some are both. Some unfortunately are extreme authoritarians who wish to not only dictate how their own society should live, but also that it is America's function to teach the rest of the world how to live. Some are wealthy and want to ensure that they maintain their entitlements. Some, but far fewer, are libertarians who want much less government, but actually have a better opinion of human nature than the rest of us. Conservative is a rather large bucket.

[Refugee]

I see American conservatives today as one faction of what has long been (at least since the end of the Civil War) a thoroughly liberal economic, intellectual, and political elite. This faction gives priority to the free market whereas the other gives priority to equality all sides in any political contest share the same liberal premises. Since 1945, we see a similar situation in Europe. It's interesting to see a Spaniard describe conservatism as a defense of the free market. You can see how Americanized Europe has become.

I think it’s rather that America that has taken on the European isms? European conservatives would defend a free market, whereas the left would defend a large government to control the market. Conservatism in the British sense is about individualism and the premise that those who have rights also have responsibilities, foremost to provide for themselves. The British left would rather say that the individual has rights and the government has the responsibility.

It seems as if U.S. conservatism is a lot different from the British model.

[Mister D]

KC that's not to say there aren't substantial differences between progressives, for example, and conservatives. I just don't see real alternatives being offered. Economism, materialism, individualism, equality etc seem to be the established parameters within which any debate is supposed to take place.

[Bob]

I think it’s rather that America that has taken on the European isms? European conservatives would defend a free market, whereas the left would defend a large government to control the market. Conservatism in the British sense is about individualism and the premise that those who have rights also have responsibilities, foremost to provide for themselves. The British left would rather say that the individual has rights and the government has the responsibility.


That is how I have long seen it as well. And it is the same in America.

[KC]

@KC (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=423) that's not to say there aren't substantial differences between progressives, for example, and conservatives. I just don't see real alternatives being offered. Economism, materialism, individualism, equality etc seem to be the established parameters within which any debate is supposed to take place.

That's how the political debate has been framed in this country and increasingly around the globe. While I'm sympathetic to economic liberalism and to a certain extent individualism and equality, I believe we share the concern that America has been hyper aggressive in exporting our ideals. The tragic loss is the natural variation in local cultures that are now suaded by our soft power.

[Refugee]

That is how I have long seen it as well. And it is the same in America.

For instance, you couldn’t be a socialist and not believe in a welfare State, but you could be a conservative and include it. The left is very rigid and needs a government as its core principle to oversee and distribute. Yet you couldn’t have a bloated overbearing State under conservatism, because there would be a minimum of distribution. So all left ideologies would propose a big government and so would the right to control things, but conservatives wouldn’t. Your founding Fathers is the nearest I’d get to UK conservatism in the U.S. – a get out there and sort out your own life in your own way and be left alone to do it.

So UK conservatism wouldn’t try to interfere and set level playing fields for society, it would leave society to do that for itself. It would involve itself in affairs of the State, the armed forces, foreign policy, seeking trade agreements, but not concern itself to much at an individual level. :smiley:

[Blackrook]

Conservatives are like the hobbits in Lord of the Rings. They want to live a simple life, with enough to live comfortably, but don't lust for wealth and power. They are more interested in a life surrounded by family and friends than in running the world or sitting on a big pile of dragon gold.

But when things get tough, conservatives/hobbits come out of their holes and join the good fight to preserve what is good from the forces of evil.

What I'm envisioning is the "silent majority" that Nixon talked about. The people that work hard, raise a family, and don't cause trouble. Also, the "Reagan Democrats" who came out for him on social issues when their own party abandoned them.

We see these people manning the ramparts in the pro-life movement, but also the Tea Party. Obama's extreme leftism has riled them up, and made them more active, like the tyranny of King George III riled up the patriots in 1775.

[Bob]

For instance, you couldn’t be a socialist and not believe in a welfare State, but you could be a conservative and include it. The left is very rigid and needs a government as its core principle to oversee and distribute. Yet you couldn’t have a bloated overbearing State under conservatism, because there would be a minimum of distribution. So all left ideologies would propose a big government and so would the right to control things, but conservatives wouldn’t. Your founding Fathers is the nearest I’d get to UK conservatism in the U.S. – a get out there and sort out your own life in your own way and be left alone to do it.

So UK conservatism wouldn’t try to interfere and set level playing fields for society, it would leave society to do that for itself. It would involve itself in affairs of the State, the armed forces, foreign policy, seeking trade agreements, but not concern itself to much at an individual level. :smiley:

That is how I see "conservatism" in the USA.

Leftists have a love affair with government. This reminds me of those who had the love affair with the king or Queens of countries. Even some loved Saddam Hussein and Mao Tse Tung. Hitler was loved, and so was Stalin.

I see the American left as a lover of the rigid control by what they see as their lord and master, their ruler.

Rather than love their fellow neighbors enough to take ownership of freedom, they side with the government.

The problem is, to be great at music, one must practice. To be a skilled ship captain, one practices. To be skilled in freedom, one practices. The left simply does not understand. My hunch is they think by kissing the kings ass, they get points.

[Mainecoons]

Pete has it right. Our side lost. Exhibit 1 is the rapidly declining state of the U.S.

[Refugee]

I’ve always said that if a revolution comes, it won’t be from those wanting more, but from the taxpayers paying for it. Long live the taxpayer revolutionaries! (Not comrades, but citizens). :smiley:

[Refugee]

A message from the barricades to our socialist, long term welfare, friends.

It’s not the government that feeds and clothes you, it’s me and people like me. They simply gave you the money they stole off me. When you buy your groceries it’s using my stolen money. Everything you own is stolen from us.

One day we shall rise, like a phoenix from the ashes to re-claim your iphone 5 and computer and you can’t complain, because it didn’t belong to you in the first place and as you bought it with the proceeds of stolen money, it’s illegal anyway.

Socialism is the biggest crime in American history. Someone should call the police and report this.

As a 2/3 conservative, I refuse to put you to death as an empty useless mouth to feed, as your communist friends would. I would put you to work cleaning the streets and other work for the community who pay for you. Your wealth distribution fantasies would come in the form of food stamps and a minimum wage would be whatever you’re stupid enough to work for, in the absence of you being unable to do anything else. If you refuse to work, we will refuse to feed you anymore, deal?

As all are equal, I’ll put Pelosi and Reid alongside you sweeping the streets so they can experience equality at first hand. In a few years’ time a miracle will happen which no socialist has ever been able to achieve; you‘ll start to move upwards. A bit of social mobility in the right direction, not everyone coming down to your level. Exciting times, as you start to learn skills, improve your education and with it your self-respect. You’ll earn money, hold your head up . . . . . and you’ll hate paying taxes, just like we do now.

Anyone for a bit of UK conservatism? :laugh:

[Perianne]

A message from the barricades to our socialist, long term welfare, friends.

It’s not the government that feeds and clothes you, it’s me and people like me. They simply gave you the money they stole off me. When you buy your groceries it’s using my stolen money. Everything you own is stolen from us.

One day we shall rise, like a phoenix from the ashes to re-claim your iphone 5 and computer and you can’t complain, because it didn’t belong to you in the first place and as you bought it with the proceeds of stolen money, it’s illegal anyway.

Socialism is the biggest crime in American history. Someone should call the police and report this.

As a 2/3 conservative, I refuse to put you to death as an empty useless mouth to feed, as your communist friends would. I would put you to work cleaning the streets and other work for the community who pay for you. Your wealth distribution fantasies would come in the form of food stamps and a minimum wage would be whatever you’re stupid enough to work for, in the absence of you being unable to do anything else. If you refuse to work, we will refuse to feed you anymore, deal?

As all are equal, I’ll put Pelosi and Reid alongside you sweeping the streets so they can experience equality at first hand. In a few years’ time a miracle will happen which no socialist has ever been able to achieve; you‘ll start to move upwards. A bit of social mobility in the right direction, not everyone coming down to your level. Exciting times, as you start to learn skills, improve your education and with it your self-respect. You’ll earn money, hold your head up . . . . . and you’ll hate paying taxes, just like we do now.

Anyone for a bit of UK conservatism? :laugh:


Refugee, you are the man!!!!

[Refugee]

Refugee, you are the man!!!!

Refugee-ism, it’s more than just a sticking plaster. Required reading for the western downtrodden masses from a communist land of no free anything. (Or should that be the other way around?).

Other notable quotes.

2 Thessalonians 3:10-12
“For even when we were with you, we would give you this command: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat. For we hear that some among you walk in idleness, not busy at work, but busybodies. Now such persons we command and encourage in the Lord Jesus Christ to do their work quietly and to earn their own living.”

Marx The Communist Manifesto (1848)
"Workers of the world, unite!"

Stephen Colbert
“God works in mysterious ways but at least he works, he's never on welfare in a mysterious way.”

Tarja Moles, Xenophobe's Guide to the Finns
“Free education, almost free healthcare, a generous benefits system and a better state pension than elsewhere, guarantee equal opportunities for all citizens. The only problem is that all these require a considerable amount of public revenue. This is why the common assertion that to be born in Finland is like winning the jackpot in the lottery is only applicable when you are at the receiving end. A far more common experience is that you need to win the lottery just to cover the tax bill.”

“Do people on welfare celebrate Labor day?”


Don’t miss the exciting part two from your political correspondent, in which we put forward the opposing view from drug, alcohol, Obamacare and welfare users.

7201

“O'er the land of the free and the home of the brave.”

7202

Win a fortune in the free Obama show. Remember, you gotta be in it to win it.

7203

Dat Refugee sho talkin da jive. Better than a donut and cheaper than Obamacare.

[Libhater]

Pete has it right. Our side lost. Exhibit 1 is the rapidly declining state of the U.S.

Oh c-mon MC, stop bowing down in defeat. Get it together my man. FIGHT....REVOLT, or do something rather than die on the limb.
Don't let the commies get the best of ya. Read the book "Rules for Radical Conservatives" as it explains just what to do in overcoming
this progressive anti American surge of late.

[Chris]

Why can't society change without violating the Constitution? I too think "status quo" is too simplistic.

I think it wrong to say conservatism stands for the status quo, for keeping things the way they are. Better to say conservatives are from gradual, incremental, prudent change where consequences into the future are considered, and the results monitored.

[Chris]

It was somewhat of conclusion the part of status quo.

Because defend traditional values and free market is defend the today's aristocracy, it is: status quo.

When I find some revolutionary and that a conservative changes anything I am going to believe that they are not pro-status quo. But the word conservative means conservation. Conservative means keeping the system. If you don't want to keep the system you are something else.


Except that's not the free market. I mean, how can free be used if the market is controlled as in feudal times by an aristocracy? That's an anachronistic view of the world today. Feudalism ended already. The free market is something else altogether, it is controlled by consumers.

[Chris]

Clearly, but the irony is that most of conservative they don't have problems with that regulation if they can take profit from it.

But, free market is more an area of liberalism than conservatism. Conservatism focus in the status quo. It is traditional values, therefore big state in this area to keep those traditional values... And some distorted defense of free market.

I did by purpose to say first what they say to defend, and later going introducing the buts.


I think it’s rather that America that has taken on the European isms? European conservatives would defend a free market, whereas the left would defend a large government to control the market. Conservatism in the British sense is about individualism and the premise that those who have rights also have responsibilities, foremost to provide for themselves. The British left would rather say that the individual has rights and the government has the responsibility.

It seems as if U.S. conservatism is a lot different from the British model.


You two describe the same Europe in completely different ways.

[kilgram]

You two describe the same Europe in completely different ways.
Well, it is normal. I am continental, he is British. British always has been closer to America and American ideas than to Europe.

[Chris]

Well, it is normal. I am continental, he is British. British or the Perfidious Albion always has been closer to America and American ideas than Europe.


But then the differences are in Europe but in perspectives. This may seem obvious to point out but the differences are entirely matters of definition--you each define the free market differently--and attitude--you each assign value differently. What we have is blind men encountering an elephant.

http://i.snag.gy/vDUCQ.jpg

You can't both be correct and could both be wrong.

Until you agree on what terms like free market mean, you will always and ever talk right past each other. I have little doubt that if you defined terms you'd find you're for and against the same things.

[Mister D]

I think it’s rather that America that has taken on the European isms? European conservatives would defend a free market, whereas the left would defend a large government to control the market. Conservatism in the British sense is about individualism and the premise that those who have rights also have responsibilities, foremost to provide for themselves. The British left would rather say that the individual has rights and the government has the responsibility.

It seems as if U.S. conservatism is a lot different from the British model.

I agree that no political philosophy has its origin in the US. I'm just saying that, while the roots of liberalism are European, the USA has become its greatest exponent.I'm also suggesting that liberalism has become largely uncontested in post-war Europe as a result of the Allied victory in 1945.

[Cigar]

To me, a conservative is someone who takes responsibility for himself/herself and her own.

C-Yea

http://1funny.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/small-island.jpg

[Perianne]

C-Yea

http://1funny.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/small-island.jpg
Cigar, I love that island. Do you know where it is?

[Matty]

@Cigar (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=294), I love that island. Do you know where it is?
It looks like his one hole golf course.

[Cigar]

:laugh: Yea ... in the middle of no where someone can take responsibility for himself/herself and her own.

[Perianne]

:laugh: Yea ... in the middle of no where someone can take responsibility for himself/herself and her own.

huh?

[zelmo1234]

C-Yea

http://1funny.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/small-island.jpg

Looks like it is going to take a 7 iron, or and easy 6

[Chris]

:laugh: Yea ... in the middle of no where someone can take responsibility for himself/herself and her own.

That's a liberal view of liberty when it's more a responsibility to others, to work with and cooperate with others to accomplish more than an individual can. That's more of the classical view of liberty.

[kilgram]

But then the differences are in Europe but in perspectives. This may seem obvious to point out but the differences are entirely matters of definition--you each define the free market differently--and attitude--you each assign value differently. What we have is blind men encountering an elephant.

http://i.snag.gy/vDUCQ.jpg

You can't both be correct and could both be wrong.

Until you agree on what terms like free market mean, you will always and ever talk right past each other. I have little doubt that if you defined terms you'd find you're for and against the same things.
Free market is free market everywhere. It means the same here and China.

Later there are terms that are more relative. That are more depending of the culture.

[pjohns]

A conservative is not afraid of differing opinions, they have enough confidence in their own that they do not feel the need to stamp out opposing points of view.

Yes, unlike the leftist mob at Rutgers--spearheaded principally by the faculty there, I think--that simply did not want former Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to speak at commencement ceremonies there, lest these new graduates should be infected by opinions that did not meet the litmus test of Progressive Orthodoxy...