Paul Diverges From His Party Over Voter ID

[Kabuki Joe]

...he'll end up going 3rd party eventually...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/10/us/politics/paul-says-gop-push-on-voting-laws-is-alienating-blacks.html?hp&_r=2

[Matty]

Mr. Paul does not wish to prevent voter fraud because it offends people? What a putz.

[KC]

He's worried about the GOP alienating blacks? It's true but it doesn't seem like it should be a concern for Republicans. It's not like there's a huge portion of African Americans who were voting Republican then suddenly started voting Democratic over Voter ID.


MEMPHIS — Senator Rand Paul of Kentucky broke Friday with fellow Republicans who have pushed for stricter voting laws as a way to crack down on fraud at the polls, saying that the focus on such measures alienates and insults African-Americans and hurts the party.

[Kabuki Joe]

He's worried about the GOP alienating blacks? It's true but it doesn't seem like it should be a concern for Republicans. It's not like there's a huge portion of African Americans who were voting Republican then suddenly started voting Democratic over Voter ID.

...it's not the blacks voter ID is for... ;)

[donttread]

...he'll end up going 3rd party eventually...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/10/us/politics/paul-says-gop-push-on-voting-laws-is-alienating-blacks.html?hp&_r=2

Way to go Rand. Never sell out

[Newpublius]

You know, one time I recall a state elected official take a stand on Social Security. Ridiculous really, there was nothing he or she could've done about it. Here, the same really, these voter ID laws are enacted at the state level, there's no reason a federal elected official should care because the legislative and executive branches have nothing to do with it. Now, Supreme Court sided with Indiana's voter ID scheme. Conservatives WON, ENOUGH ALREADY, take that victory, follow Indiana's template and go with that and be happy with that. Instead they always try to take one inch more and one inch more and various state scheme's get overruled at the Supreme Court.

So, yes, to a certain extent I agree with Paul, there's TRILLIONS of dollars at stake.....

[WalterSobchak]

Uh oh! LMAO

[Matty]

Fuck mr. Paul. I won't vote for him. What a putz.

[The Xl]

I honestly have no fucking idea which way to lean or how to think about Rand Paul, and I've never felt that way about a politician before. I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.

[Ishmael Pequod]

I think he really hurt himself.

[The Xl]

I think he really hurt himself.

Actually, he probably didn't.

Progressive neocons aren't voting for him, and his attempts to reach out to the black community will pay dividends, I think. The black vote is a largely untapped group, and I think they can be reached with the right sort of "conservative."

[Chris]

...he'll end up going 3rd party eventually...

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/10/us/politics/paul-says-gop-push-on-voting-laws-is-alienating-blacks.html?hp&_r=2



Or he'll change the GOP.

Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell (R) said Thursday his junior colleague from Kentucky, Sen. Rand Paul (R), is forcing people to rethink the Republican Party with an unmatched level of "missionary zeal."" (http://www.veooz.com/news/uH7avBc.html)

[Matty]

Actually, he probably didn't.

Progressive neocons aren't voting for him, and his attempts to reach out to the black community will pay dividends, I think. The black vote is a largely untapped group, and I think they can be reached with the right sort of "conservative."
The black vote is and will be 98% democrat.

[The Xl]

The black vote is and will be 98% democrat.

That's because you guys push a less black friendly version of progressivism, and not an actual alternative.

[Matty]

I honestly have no fucking idea which way to lean or how to think about Rand Paul, and I've never felt that way about a politician before. I'm not sure if that's a good or bad thing.
The reason democrats want no voter ID is so they can practice voter fraud. Rand Paul is officially a RINO. He won't be on the GOP ballot.

[Matty]

That's because you guys push a less black friendly version of progressivism, and not an actual alternative.


No, no, it's because we aren't bean counters. We want the same for all the people, regardless of race. Notice how democrats treat the black Republicans? That should teach you every damn thing you need to know.

[nic34]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=arZdeg_fL-I&list=RDarZdeg_fL-I

[The Xl]

The reason democrats want no voter ID is so they can practice voter fraud. Rand Paul is officially a RINO. He won't be on the GOP ballot.

I'm not sold on Rand, but he's the least RINOish person in the whole GOP, be it on finances, foreign policy, or civil liberties.

[The Xl]

No, no, it's because we aren't bean counters. We want the same for all the people, regardless of race. Notice how democrats treat the black Republicans? That should teach you every damn thing you need to know.

Come on, bullshit. You guys spend money like the left at massive quantities, push for the racist drug war more than the left, the only difference is, you guys don't pander to blacks, and at least the left wants to throw a little money their way, and not just the way of huge corporations.

You don't push for a different message, your vision has the same negatives that the left does in regards to the black community, with no positives, not even slight ones, and without any feel good rhetoric.

[Matty]

Come on, bullshit. You guys spend money like the left at massive quantities, push for the racist drug war more than the left, the only difference is, you guys don't pander to blacks, and at least the left wants to throw a little money their way, and not just the way of huge corporations.

You don't push for a different message, your vision has the same negatives that the left does in regards to the black community, with no positives, not even slight ones, and without any feel good rhetoric.
Prove it.

[The Xl]

Prove it.

What, specifically, would you like proven?

[Chris]

Come on, bullshit. You guys spend money like the left at massive quantities, push for the racist drug war more than the left, the only difference is, you guys don't pander to blacks, and at least the left wants to throw a little money their way, and not just the way of huge corporations.

You don't push for a different message, your vision has the same negatives that the left does in regards to the black community, with no positives, not even slight ones, and without any feel good rhetoric.


Prove it.


The first is easy, Department of Offense. Probably the greatest source of crony corporatism known to man, though I suppose welfare cronyism can be compared to warfare cronyism, welfare that ends up spent and enriching the rich.

[The Xl]

Look at the wars, defense budget, medicare expansion, corporate subsidies, etc, if you want to see if the right spends money. I mean, seriously?

[WalterSobchak]

Look at the wars, defense budget, medicare expansion, corporate subsidies, etc, if you want to see if the right spends money. I mean, seriously?


The ultra partisan never open their eyes fully.

[Chris]

http://i.snag.gy/gclpp.jpg

[1751_Texan]

He's worried about the GOP alienating blacks? It's true but it doesn't seem like it should be a concern for Republicans. It's not like there's a huge portion of African Americans who were voting Republican then suddenly started voting Democratic over Voter ID.

That is not Paul's point. It's not about blacks voting Republican...it is about all other voters seeing restrictions on voting as an attempt by the GOP to hold the black vote down.

[zelmo1234]

http://i.snag.gy/gclpp.jpg

That is beautiful!

[zelmo1234]

There are several things at play here. Mr Paul has taken some positions lately that have the conservative base worried. While I was once excited about the possibility of him being President, I am not comfortable with that, though VP would be OK with me.

So knowing this he needs a new source of primary votes? could he pull enough black vote in the primaries to get the nomination?

I confess I am getting less excited about Mr Paul! He seems to have some very progressive ideas in some areas!

[Matty]

Look at the wars, defense budget, medicare expansion, corporate subsidies, etc, if you want to see if the right spends money. I mean, seriously?


Again, slowly. Earl slowly, the first 43 Presidents put this country 10 trillion dollars in debt, this administration when done will have added ten trillion on it's own.

[Cigar]

Tick Tock :grin:

[Chris]

Again, slowly. Earl slowly, the first 43 Presidents put this country 10 trillion dollars in debt, this administration when done will have added ten trillion on it's own.

Exactly, one president worse than the next. As Cigar says, tick tock.

[Kabuki Joe]

The ultra partisan never open their eyes fully.


...aren't you one or are you different?...

[Kabuki Joe]

That is not Paul's point. It's not about blacks voting Republican...it is about all other voters seeing restrictions on voting as an attempt by the GOP to hold the black vote down.


...it's not about blacks...

[Spectre]

I'm not sold on Rand, but he's the least RINOish person in the whole GOP, be it on finances, foreign policy, or civil liberties.
There's still a whiff of his lunatic dad about Rand. One tends to eye him suspiciously.

[The Xl]

There's still a whiff of his lunatic dad about Rand. One tends to eye him suspiciously.

You can't explain coherently what makes his dad a lunatic. It's meaningless sensationalism.

[The Xl]

Again, slowly. Earl slowly, the first 43 Presidents put this country 10 trillion dollars in debt, this administration when done will have added ten trillion on it's own.

It's always trended upward, Obama continued the trend and the next one will continue the same.

[Mini Me]

But that's exactly what the Rethuglican party needs!

Its a lot better than being the "scorched earth" party of never!

The party needs to come back into the mainstream, and stop alienating so many folks.

Rand shows courage to try to buck the GOP!

[Mini Me]

At least Rand is looking for pragmatic solutions to real problems, and avoiding the divisive wedge issues the GOP is notorious for.

He finally turned his back on the phony Tea Party and corporate stooge mainstream of the GOP.

That takes guts! Trying to remove the stench of the Rethug Party is a tough job, after all they have done to hurt America!

People should applaud him, not castigate him!

[Kabuki Joe]

At least Rand is looking for pragmatic solutions to real problems, and avoiding the divisive wedge issues the GOP is notorious for.

He finally turned his back on the phony Tea Party and corporate stooge mainstream of the GOP.

That takes guts! Trying to remove the stench of the Rethug Party is a tough job, after all they have done to hurt America!

People should applaud him, not castigate him!


...you and sage need to hook up...

[Green Arrow]

Classic. Responses in this thread from the forum's Republicans just goes to show where their priorities lie. Rand has a solid record on protecting our freedoms and civil liberties...but goddamn him for daring to say that we need to stop wasting time on feel-good legislation that does nothing.

[1751_Texan]

...it's not about blacks...

what is not about blacks? Voter photo ID?

Sen Paul believes it is. That is the reason for his speaking out. He sees how "others", than just liberals, view the purpose of V.ID.

[Chris]

what is not about blacks? Voter photo ID?

Sen Paul believes it is. That is the reason for his speaking out. He sees how "others", than just liberals, view the purpose of V.ID.


That's not what he's saying. It's not about blacks, but the Democratic propaganda machine has convinced people it is, so just give it up.

[Codename Section]

That's not what he's saying. It's not about blacks, but the Democratic propaganda machine has convinced people it is, so just give it up.

It is and it's not. Republicans believe it will keep blacks from voting and hispanics. Whether that is true or not is debatable. That's why they're doing it. No one cared so much on the Republican side in 2000 about Voter ID. Only when they want to win a national election.

I might add that only Dems cared about poll fraud back then, too. I was still kinda a kid and I remember "hanging chads".

[zelmo1234]

You can't explain coherently what makes his dad a lunatic. It's meaningless sensationalism.

Paul the SR. had a foreign policy that would have lead to massive wars, that eventually the USA would have been sucked into!

As a country we do some really shitty things on the world stage, however, if we removed ourselves from that stage, the power vacuum that would be left would be filled

The cast of character's that would have the ability to fill that would be much worse and more dangerous. It would lead to a world wide arms race and when you have lots of strong militaries roaming the world? It is only a matter of time!

[1751_Texan]

That's not what he's saying. It's not about blacks, but the Democratic propaganda machine has convinced people it is, so just give it up.

That is not what "who's" saying...


Mix in some names once in awhile.

[Codename Section]

Paul the SR. had a foreign policy that would have lead to massive wars, that eventually the USA would have been sucked into!

As a country we do some really shitty things on the world stage, however, if we removed ourselves from that stage, the power vacuum that would be left would be filled

The cast of character's that would have the ability to fill that would be much worse and more dangerous. It would lead to a world wide arms race and when you have lots of strong militaries roaming the world? It is only a matter of time!


Naww, there would be wars. There are always wars, but we wouldn't be sucked into them. We keep forgetting how big the US is and how many natural resources we have. We are capable even though we don't want to be of self-sustaining.

[Green Arrow]

Paul the SR. had a foreign policy that would have lead to massive wars, that eventually the USA would have been sucked into!

As a country we do some really shitty things on the world stage, however, if we removed ourselves from that stage, the power vacuum that would be left would be filled

The cast of character's that would have the ability to fill that would be much worse and more dangerous. It would lead to a world wide arms race and when you have lots of strong militaries roaming the world? It is only a matter of time!

The current imbalance of power will only cause the world to descend into greater chaos.

[Chris]

It is and it's not. Republicans believe it will keep blacks from voting and hispanics. Whether that is true or not is debatable. That's why they're doing it. No one cared so much on the Republican side in 2000 about Voter ID. Only when they want to win a national election.

I might add that only Dems cared about poll fraud back then, too. I was still kinda a kid and I remember "hanging chads".



I've only seen Democrat argue that, not Republicans, Reps focus on voting fraud, Dems play the race card.

[Chris]

That is not what "who's" saying...


Mix in some names once in awhile.



It is what Rand Paul is saying, much as you want to spin it as a racial thing.

[Green Arrow]

I've only seen Democrat argue that, not Republicans, Reps focus on voting fraud, Dems play the race card.

And yet, this concern over voter fraud didn't show up until Democrats started taking 80-90% of minority votes, and Republicans almost violently resist evidence that voter fraud is almost non-existent, while ELECTION FRAUD, done by the people that register voters and count ballots, is the major source of fraud.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if one of them attacks this post.

[Cigar]

Everyone Knows The Truth ... well most Everyone :laugh:

[Chris]

And yet, this concern over voter fraud didn't show up until Democrats started taking 80-90% of minority votes, and Republicans almost violently resist evidence that voter fraud is almost non-existent, while ELECTION FRAUD, done by the people that register voters and count ballots, is the major source of fraud.

In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if one of them attacks this post.


Last we all argued, tons of evidence was summarily dismissed.

Why not complain driver's licenses are racist? Same thing.

[Chris]

Everyone Knows The Truth ... well most Everyone :laugh:


Nominated for meaningless platitude of the day.

http://i.snag.gy/7u3CA.jpg

[Green Arrow]

Last we all argued, tons of evidence was summarily dismissed.

Why not complain driver's licenses are racist? Same thing.

I'm not arguing it's about racism, because it's not. It's about power. Minorities are coming out increasingly in favor of Democrats, and are quickly outpacing whites. The GOP has never been as power savvy as Democrats, they don't know how to reach the growing demographics they have lost. So until they figure it out, keeping them away from the polls is the next best thing.

People who think it is about racism are missing the point just like those that believe it's about preventing voter fraud.

[Chris]

I'm not arguing it's about racism, because it's not. It's about power. Minorities are coming out increasingly in favor of Democrats, and are quickly outpacing whites. The GOP has never been as power savvy as Democrats, they don't know how to reach the growing demographics they have lost. So until they figure it out, keeping them away from the polls is the next best thing.

Of course it's about power, and controlling that power, but the stated purpose is to control voter fraud in obtaining that power. The only thing voter ID will do is keep dead people from voting.


Does the requirement to have a driver's license have the same effect as Dems claim for voter ID?

[Green Arrow]

Of course it's about power, and controlling that power, but the stated purpose is to control voter fraud in obtaining that power. The only thing voter ID will do is keep dead people from voting.

And low income, uneducated people who don't have IDs and don't know how to get them, which are usually black.

Voter ID won't stop dead people from voting, because dead people don't walk into the polling place. Dead voters exist because of registration fraud - which voter ID can't stop - and election official fraud - which voter ID also can't stop.

Stalin was a fuckhead, but he was right when he said that it's not he who votes that counts, but he who counts the votes. You may trust politicians to be totally honest about their stated goals, but I do not. This is all misdirection.

[Chris]

And low income, uneducated people who don't have IDs and don't know how to get them, which are usually black.

Voter ID won't stop dead people from voting, because dead people don't walk into the polling place. Dead voters exist because of registration fraud - which voter ID can't stop - and election official fraud - which voter ID also can't stop.

Stalin was a fuckhead, but he was right when he said that it's not he who votes that counts, but he who counts the votes. You may trust politicians to be totally honest about their stated goals, but I do not. This is all misdirection.



That argument falls apart when you look at driver's licenses. People, rich, poor, smart, dumb, have no problem getting them.


But people walking into voting places and vote for dead people. And people walk into multiple voting places to vote.


The misdirection is on the parts of Dem propagandists like cigar.

[Green Arrow]

That argument falls apart when you look at driver's licenses. People, rich, poor, smart, dumb, have no problem getting them.


But people walking into voting places and vote for dead people. And people walk into multiple voting places to vote.


The misdirection is on the parts of Dem propagandists like cigar.

Where, Chris? Where is this evidence that VOTERS are committing fraud in significant enough numbers to affect elections? The best evidence I've seen is that Ohio pollworker who voted for Obama six times. Voter ID wouldn't have stopped her, because she was a POLLWORKER, the person who is supposed to keep people without IDs from voting.

Further, I've still not seen evidence of a single polling place in the US that doesn't require ID to vote, anyway.

[Codename Section]

Here's the honest truth. Both Democrats and Republicans believe that without IDs blacks won't vote because they won't bother getting IDs. That's why Democrats are fighting it and why Republicans want it. Everyone knows they vote Democrat as a block.

On the one hand, IDs are necessary for everything these days from getting a house to writing checks, on the other voting is a right.

The same people who would argue for ID enforcement by the government for air travel are the people saying people can't get IDs easy. The same people who want them to have IDs to vote have said a national ID card is Big Brother.

This is exactly why our generation is turned off. The hypocrisy and double standards just suck.

[Chris]

Where, Chris? Where is this evidence that VOTERS are committing fraud in significant enough numbers to affect elections? The best evidence I've seen is that Ohio pollworker who voted for Obama six times. Voter ID wouldn't have stopped her, because she was a POLLWORKER, the person who is supposed to keep people without IDs from voting.

Further, I've still not seen evidence of a single polling place in the US that doesn't require ID to vote, anyway.


No, I'm not going to go start digging it up again, it'll just be dismissed.

Voter ID would have prevented her votes from counting.

People drive without driver's licenses. The idea isn't to seek perfection, but simply improve the system.

[Chris]

Here's the honest truth. Both Democrats and Republicans believe that without IDs blacks won't vote because they won't bother getting IDs. That's why Democrats are fighting it and why Republicans want it. Everyone knows they vote Democrat as a block.

On the one hand, IDs are necessary for everything these days from getting a house to writing checks, on the other voting is a right.

The same people who would argue for ID enforcement by the government for air travel are the people saying people can't get IDs easy. The same people who want them to have IDs to vote have said a national ID card is Big Brother.

This is exactly why our generation is turned off. The hypocrisy and double standards just suck.


Everyone knows they vote Democrat as a block.
The Wash doesn't impress me as one who votes Democrat.

Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, Justice Thomas are not Democrats.

[Kabuki Joe]

Here's the honest truth. Both Democrats and Republicans believe that without IDs blacks won't vote because they won't bother getting IDs. That's why Democrats are fighting it and why Republicans want it. Everyone knows they vote Democrat as a block.

On the one hand, IDs are necessary for everything these days from getting a house to writing checks, on the other voting is a right.

The same people who would argue for ID enforcement by the government for air travel are the people saying people can't get IDs easy. The same people who want them to have IDs to vote have said a national ID card is Big Brother.

This is exactly why our generation is turned off. The hypocrisy and double standards just suck.

...it's not about blacks and if you think it is, I feel for you...

[Green Arrow]

Voter ID would have prevented her votes from counting.

How, when she is the one counting the votes?

[Chris]

How, when she is the one counting the votes?

Then a watchman's watchman is needed.

[Green Arrow]

Then a watchman's watchman is needed.

Right, not voter ID.

[Chris]

Right, not voter ID.

Voter ID would give monitors something objective to monitor. It would be easier to see more than one vote associated with the same voter ID.

[Green Arrow]

Voter ID would give monitors something objective to monitor. It would be easier to see more than one vote associated with the same voter ID.

No, it wouldn't, unless you collected all the IDs until you finished counting, or counted the votes as they came in. I've worked in a polling place in a state where ID was mandated by law. When you walk in, you show them your ID and you get a check mark by your name in a book and you sign it. Then you get your ballot and go vote.

Pollworkers vote at the end of the day after the polling place is closed down.

[Chris]

No, it wouldn't, unless you collected all the IDs until you finished counting, or counted the votes as they came in. I've worked in a polling place in a state where ID was mandated by law. When you walk in, you show them your ID and you get a check mark by your name in a book and you sign it. Then you get your ballot and go vote.

Pollworkers vote at the end of the day after the polling place is closed down.

Monitor their voting.

We're getting away from my initial contention, which was simply the movement for voter ID is not racist, and into what I see as one of the essential problems with democracy, which is to implement the democratic process properly you need a huge, coercive state apparatus, which I'm against.

[Green Arrow]

Monitor their voting.

We're getting away from my initial contention, which was simply the movement for voter ID is not racist, and into what I see as one of the essential problems with democracy, which is to implement the democratic process properly you need a huge, coercive state apparatus, which I'm against.

I already said from the start that I agree that it isn't racist. My point is that voter ID is feel-good legislation that ignores the real cause of election fraud.

[The Wash]

@The Wash (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=906) doesn't impress me as one who votes Democrat.

Walter Williams, Thomas Sowell, Justice Thomas are not Democrats.

He's right. Blacks pretty much vote Democratic since Republicans always have to call us out for shit constantly. Nobody wants to vote with a party that has contempt for your race in general. If a 3rd Party was more powerful Sowell probably wouldn't vote Republican either.