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View Full Version : Wising up to welfare fraud, no more cash withdrawals.



momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 12:59 PM
In an effort to stop abuse of Michigan's food stamps debit card program, State Rep. Tom McMillin, R-Rochester Hills, wants state Bridge Cards to have photos and no longer allow recipients to take cash withdrawals (http://www.michigan.gov/dhs/0,4562,7-124-5455_7034-14405--,00.html) from them.
Rep. McMillin introduced House Bill 5536 (http://gophouse.org/rep-tom-mcmillin-introduces-major-welfare-reform/) earlier this week with 12 co-sponsors. He said the technology is available to have the state make direct payments from the Bridge Card to landlords, utilities and child care providers while restricting food and clothing purchases to the basics.
He said those measures as well as a photo identification on the card would greatly reduce fraud and abuse and "ensures the taxpayer funded assistance is going to help out — not (be used) for filet mignon or designer clothes. It also makes sure taxpayer money isn't going for illegal drugs and other illegal or inappropriate expenditures."

http://www.michigancapitolconfidential.com/20079

This is a step in the right direction, though I see one point that is overlooked. That would be drug testing for welfare recipients.

Cigar
05-16-2014, 01:10 PM
Tax Breaks for ...

One (1) Corporate Yacht

One (1) Corporate Learjet

... Trumps all that :tongue:

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 01:13 PM
Let's ask Kerry that question about his yacht. You know the one he tried to harbor out of state so he wouldn't have to pay taxes?

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 01:14 PM
Now can we get back to the topic? How does everyone feel about this new bill proposing to regulate welfare cards?

The Xl
05-16-2014, 01:15 PM
I'm all for stopping welfare fraud the second we also stop corporate welfare.

Cigar
05-16-2014, 01:16 PM
Let's ask Kerry that question about his yacht. You know the one he tried to harbor out of state so he wouldn't have to pay taxes?

Go ahead, if it helps you understand :laugh:

Cigar
05-16-2014, 01:18 PM
I'm all for stopping welfare fraud the second we also stop corporate welfare.

I'm with you ...

I think we're all for reducing number of Murders also ... but I don't see any reducing number of Babies Births because of it :wink:

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 01:18 PM
Sorry, I don't see corporate welfare using tax dollars to buy drugs and not feed their children.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 01:19 PM
Sorry, I don't see corporate welfare using tax dollars to buy drugs and not feed their children.

I don't think it really matters what they're doing with their money, it needs to stop regardless of what they're doing with it.

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 01:23 PM
What corporations are doing with their tax breaks are 99% of the time legal. What is more important to you? Allowing your tax dollars to be used of non-essentials and possibly illegal drugs etc and denying children those benefits, or a corporation who uses a tax break to further business that benefits people?

patrickt
05-16-2014, 01:26 PM
A bar in our town cashed ADC, Aid to Dependent Children, checks so they could get the money for the mother's bar tab first. If she cashed her check somewhere else, the bar would not let her run a tab. Some mother's use welfare responsibly and hope to get off welfare. Others use it irresponsibly and couldn't be forced off with the USDA new machine guns.

I think the proposal has merit. I don't credit the government with having any sense at all and giving people who have proven themselves, repeatedly, to be totally irresponsible or simply incapable cash maintains the government's reputation for incredible stupidity. What's next, forcing banks to give mortgages to people who have neither the ability nor the will to repay?

Cigar
05-16-2014, 01:29 PM
Sorry, I don't see corporate welfare using tax dollars to buy drugs and not feed their children.

Naivete :laugh:

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 01:33 PM
Naivete :laugh:

Care to prove it?

The Xl
05-16-2014, 01:35 PM
What corporations are doing with their tax breaks are 99% of the time legal. What is more important to you? Allowing your tax dollars to be used of non-essentials and possibly illegal drugs etc and denying children those benefits, or a corporation who uses a tax break to further business that benefits people?

I have no issue with tax breaks on the surface, although it's bullshit that the bigger the chain, the bigger the break. What's bullshit is taxpayer subsidies.

The word "illegal" on its own is meaningless to me.

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 01:37 PM
yes, I'm sure that you consider using taxpayer funds meant to help a family with children is best spent on a meth fix......

Mainecoons
05-16-2014, 01:37 PM
Tax "breaks" from the world's highest corporate tax rates (confiscation)?

Too bad some of us can't grasp the difference between stealing handouts given to you using money taken from the productive or just flat out printed, versus allowing the productive to keep more of their own money.

Even more too bad is that some of you can't grasp that when you over-tax and over-regulate in a world where there are alternatives, people will exercise rational economic behavior and pursue those alternatives rather than continue to be screwed by government.

It's called "voting with your feet" and it is going on quite strongly between places like New York and Texas or Illinois and Texas, or basically any leftist, high tax bloated government state versus those that are not.

It works the same way in the world too.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 01:38 PM
yes, I'm sure that you consider using taxpayer funds meant to help a family with children is best spent on a meth fix......

As opposed to a big chain using stolen money to price smaller competition out of business?

I don't like either, but I don't think you fully thought this one through

The Xl
05-16-2014, 01:39 PM
Tax "breaks" from the world's highest corporate tax rates (confiscation)?

Too bad some of us can't grasp the difference between stealing handouts given to you using money taken from the productive or just flat out printed, versus allowing the productive to keep more of their own money.

Even more too bad is that some of you can't grasp that when you over-tax and over-regulate in a world where there are alternatives, people will exercise rational economic behavior and pursue those alternatives rather than continue to be screwed by government.

Many big corporations aren't even paying taxes. They write the code for fucks sake. It's the small-mid level businesses that get screwed.

Cigar
05-16-2014, 01:41 PM
Care to prove it?

http://lippincott.com/cache/made/cc190b03fd288467/walmart_casestudy_design_logo-1_959_487_90_c1.jpg

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 01:42 PM
As opposed to a big chain using stolen money to price smaller competition out of business?

I don't like either, but I don't think you fully thought this one through

Stolen money? you mean a tax break that was legally applied for and granted by the IRS? Actually, it seems you haven't thought this through.
So again, let's address your claim that corporations use their tax break monies to buy drugs and deny children food. Got any links?

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 01:43 PM
and Walmart has done what illegally?

The Xl
05-16-2014, 01:45 PM
and Walmart has done what illegally?

You're fascinated with this concept of legal, like that means it's fair, Constitutional, or moral. Obamacare is "legal" too, you know.

Big businesses write the tax code and reap the benefits of subsidies that smaller businesses do not receive.

Cigar
05-16-2014, 01:47 PM
and Walmart has done what illegally?

:geez: I hope there's not sharp turns in your life ... for you necks sakes :laugh:

Mainecoons
05-16-2014, 01:48 PM
Many big corporations aren't even paying taxes. They write the code for fucks sake. It's the small-mid level businesses that get screwed.

What you don't understand is that they may use the code but it also distorts their economic behavior and real productivity. And of course as you know many are keeping billions off shore specifically to avoid the confiscation. They are also moving jobs away because of the same disincentives.

The U.S. has fallen way down in the list of good places to do business and continues to head south with Obama in charge and piling the crap on them daily.

Once again, get beyond the emotional ranting and recognize that what you are seeing is a rational response to a bunch of disincentives from the U.S. government.

You want jobs and money back here? Stop trying to steal 35 percent of the money and stop piling a load of crap on people who hire other people.

Collect your tax money from individuals, make that collection broad based and unavoidable. You don't have to look further than Canada, whose business community is prospering, to see how that works. Their business taxes are low, their personal taxes are high and split between income and value added so that everyone is paying.

It is, really, just that simple.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 01:50 PM
What you don't understand is that they may use the code but it also distorts their economic behavior and real productivity. And of course as you know many are keeping billions off shore specifically to avoid the confiscation. They are also moving jobs away because of the same disincentives.

The U.S. has fallen way down in the list of good places to do business and continues to head south with Obama in charge and piling the crap on them daily.

Once again, get beyond the emotional ranting and recognize that what you are seeing is a rational response to a bunch of disincentives from the U.S. government.

You want jobs and money back here? Stop trying to steal 35 percent of the money and stop piling a load of crap on people who hire other people.

Collect your tax money from individuals, make that collection broad based and unavoidable. You don't have to look further than Canada, whose business community is prospering, to see how that works. Their business taxes are low, their personal taxes are high and split between income and value added so that everyone is paying.

It is, really, just that simple.

I'd have a zero or a small flat tax on all businesses with no loopholes or subsidies whatsoever if it was up to me.

But it's inaccurate to suggest that:

A. What they engage in isn't bribery and theft
B. The system doesn't favor them dramatically

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 01:52 PM
:geez: I hope there's not sharp turns in your life ... for you necks sakes :laugh:

And I would hope you could come up with a real answer or link to prove your argument, because as it stands, you haven't proven anything except your invested liberal emotion of hate for capitalism.

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 01:54 PM
I'd have a zero or a small flat tax on all businesses with no loopholes or subsidies whatsoever if it was up to me.

But it's inaccurate to suggest that:

A. What they engage in isn't bribery and theft
B. The system doesn't favor them dramatically

Why shouldn't the system favor the job providers? and No according to tax laws they are not engaged in bribery or theft.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 01:58 PM
Why shouldn't the system favor the job providers? and No according to tax laws they are not engaged in bribery or theft.

Again, you're caught up with this concept of "legality" and "the law." These people essentially write the laws, they have no credibility. It's as legitimate as Obamacare. Of course it's bribery and theft, you buy a politician and he gives you someone elses money. It's the definition of bribery and theft.

The system should favor no one.

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 02:04 PM
Think what you want but the system was designed by the people who VOTED for the politicians wh omade the laws. That's the way our country works. Whereas you're whining about corporate tax breaks, I'm looking at the population, and how we need to stem fraud immediately. This knid of law would make an immediate effect on state and national welfare costs.

Mainecoons
05-16-2014, 02:07 PM
I'd have a zero or a small flat tax on all businesses with no loopholes or subsidies whatsoever if it was up to me.

But it's inaccurate to suggest that:

A. What they engage in isn't bribery and theft
B. The system doesn't favor them dramatically

Bribery to get to keep more of their money. That's not theft, sorry.

We totally agree on the proper taxes for business, namely none as the customers pay the taxes. If our businesses had none except on exported money or dividends, there would be no need for bribery, there would be no need to keep billions off shore, and our businesses would be so competitive they'd bring jobs home if the other side of the equation, job killing government regulations, was addressed.

People don't fully understand that labor content and cost is an increasingly minor part of the business equation. Things like taxes, general government hassle, cost of materials and shipping play much greater roles.

The fact of the matter is that businesses could make stuff profitably and pay liviing U.S. wages if they weren't burdened with all the other mostly due to government crap.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 02:11 PM
Bribery to get to keep more of their money. That's not theft, sorry.

We totally agree on the proper taxes for business, namely none as the customers pay the taxes. If our businesses had none except on exported money or dividends, there would be no need for bribery, there would be no need to keep billions off shore, and our businesses would be so competitive they'd bring jobs home if the other side of the equation, job killing government regulations, was addressed.

People don't fully understand that labor content and cost is an increasingly minor part of the business equation. Things like taxes, general government hassle, cost of materials and shipping play much greater roles.

The fact of the matter is that businesses could make stuff profitably and pay liviing U.S. wages if they weren't burdened with all the other mostly due to government crap.

When you bribe a shitty government to intentionally create an imbalance in what you pay vs what less privileged businesses pay to increase your bottom line at the expense of others by pricing them out of business, that's absolutely theft.

And that's not even getting into subsidies, which is a handout from the taxpayer.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 02:11 PM
Think what you want but the system was designed by the people who VOTED for the politicians wh omade the laws. That's the way our country works. Whereas you're whining about corporate tax breaks, I'm looking at the population, and how we need to stem fraud immediately. This knid of law would make an immediate effect on state and national welfare costs.

So you're telling me to stop whining, because that's the way things are in this country, and then you proceed to whine about welfare.

Hm.

Mainecoons
05-16-2014, 02:13 PM
Nope, no more than paying a shitty government "mordita" so you can stay in business.

I'm with you on everything else but this. It is not theft to do what you have to do to keep your own money. The thieves are the government, not their victims who do what they have to do to stay in business.

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 02:17 PM
So you're telling me to stop whining, because that's the way things are in this country, and then you proceed to whine about welfare.

Hm.

My post was not about corporate tax breaks. My post was welfare fraud and the need to start getting a handle on it. You diverted when it came down to me asking you for proof that corporations use tax dollars to buy drugs and deny children. You still haven't come up with a link to prove that they do, whereas there are thousands of instances of welfare abuse by people.

Matty
05-16-2014, 02:18 PM
Now can we get back to the topic? How does everyone feel about this new bill proposing to regulate welfare cards?


It's a good idea. Food stamp cards should only buy food. Period.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 02:18 PM
Nope, no more than paying a shitty government "mordita" so you can stay in business.

I'm with you on everything else but this. It is not theft to do what you have to do to keep your own money. The thieves are the government, not their victims who do what they have to do to stay in business.

If that's the case, you could pretty much make justification for anyone who receives something.

For instance, let's say someone on welfare has been working 10 years prior to receiving it. He can justify his check as his own, to do whatever he pleases with it, under the premise that he was taxed for 10 years, had to deal with inflation, whatever, and that's he's entitled to the money.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 02:19 PM
My post was not about corporate tax breaks. My post was welfare fraud and the need to start getting a handle on it. You diverted when it came down to me asking you for proof that corporations use tax dollars to buy drugs and deny children. You still haven't come up with a link to prove that they do, whereas there are thousands of instances of welfare abuse by people.

Welfare is welfare, corporate or otherwise.

Mainecoons
05-16-2014, 02:21 PM
Wrong. Taking less money from someone isn't welfare. Taking money from someone and giving it to someone else is.

Get your terms straight. Stop buying into the dishonest language of the left.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 02:22 PM
My post was not about corporate tax breaks. My post was welfare fraud and the need to start getting a handle on it. You diverted when it came down to me asking you for proof that corporations use tax dollars to buy drugs and deny children. You still haven't come up with a link to prove that they do, whereas there are thousands of instances of welfare abuse by people.

I weighed in on the topic, anyway. I said I'd love to see it stopped along with other forms of welfare. You could have chosen to let it be, but you engaged it, it takes two to tango.

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 02:22 PM
If that's the case, you could pretty much make justification for anyone who receives something.

For instance, let's say someone on welfare has been working 10 years prior to receiving it. He can justify his check as his own, to do whatever he pleases with it, under the premise that he was taxed for 10 years, had to deal with inflation, whatever, and that's he's entitled to the money.

Wrong. That is the exact entitlement reasoning why our country has now buried itself with more than half our population on government handouts.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 02:23 PM
Wrong. Taking less money from someone isn't welfare. Taking money from someone and giving it to someone else is.

Get your terms straight. Stop buying into the dishonest language of the left.

When you buy off the government and make your own rules, you're effectively robbing from other businesses. The differences are semantics and nothing more.

And subsidies are a totally different animal alltogether. They fit the "welfare" billing to a T, under any language.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 02:24 PM
Wrong. That is the exact entitlement reasoning why our country has now buried itself with more than half our population on government handouts.

Wrong isn't really much of an answer. How is it any different than corporate welfare? The concept is the same.

I'm totally against entitlements, I'd love to see them all done away with, but their is hypocrisy here, from both sides of the aisle.

Mainecoons
05-16-2014, 02:25 PM
No, you're stopping the government from robbing you. They are still robbing the others.

That's your theft.

I think you'll also find that very few small businesses are "C" corps these days for the very reason of the confiscatory taxes laid on them. They are LLCs and Sub S corps, which are pass through to individual taxes.

As I said, you need to stop by rejecting the false and emotion laden language of the left. The "bribery" is the result of people playing defense against government theft. No government theft, no need for defensive bribery.

Welfare theft is taking OPM and spending it illegally. Big difference.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 02:26 PM
No, you're stopping the government from robbing you. They are still robbing the others.

That's your theft.

Seeing as how they own the government and practically write the rules, I'm not so sure I can agree.

But, again, taxpayer subsidies are a different issue entirely, and that runs rampant as well.

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 02:27 PM
I weighed in on the topic, anyway. I said I'd love to see it stopped along with other forms of welfare. You could have chosen to let it be, but you engaged it, it takes two to tango.
Well, I do love to dance, but you actually need someone who will work with you. You still haven't proven that corporation use tax breaks to buy drugs and deny children food. Care to fall into step?

Mainecoons
05-16-2014, 02:29 PM
Seeing as how they own the government and practically write the rules, I'm not so sure I can agree.

But, again, taxpayer subsidies are a different issue entirely, and that runs rampant as well.

Flat tax plus VAT, no business taxes, all treated as pass through to individuals, no places for them to hide. End of the entire problem. Plus everyone pays.

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 02:30 PM
Wrong isn't really much of an answer. How is it any different than corporate welfare? The concept is the same.

I'm totally against entitlements, I'd love to see them all done away with, but their is hypocrisy here, from both sides of the aisle.

Allowing someone who is on welfare to use the money designed to keep them and their children alive for a drug habit, drinking, or gambling is wrong. Can your admit that?

The Xl
05-16-2014, 02:33 PM
Allowing someone who is on welfare to use the money designed to keep them and their children alive for a drug habit, drinking, or gambling is wrong. Can your admit that?

I consider manipulating the code and using stolen funds(subsidies) to price out businesses just as bad, if not worse.

Again, I'd love to see it all go away.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 02:34 PM
Flat tax plus VAT, no business taxes, all treated as pass through to individuals, no places for them to hide. End of the entire problem. Plus everyone pays.

Sounds pretty good to me. I advocate a flat percentage tax for everyone with no loopholes and no subsidies whatsoever, for anyone. I'm also all for ending welfare, or at least, totally revamping it in a dramatic way.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 02:35 PM
And on the topic specifically, if it isn't apparent already, then yes, I consider 'classical' welfare a big problem that needs sorting out

texan
05-16-2014, 02:43 PM
I am agreeing with all of you that the parties involved in running this country should be fired.

You all make the point loud and clear on one hand, but join up with one or the other to continue screwing things up all around us and pointing fingers at the other on the other hand.


You have fallen for the CLASSIC old banana in your tailpipe my friends. Hey here is an idea, lets argue about the war on women for a while, cause we all know that is a major issue.

The Xl
05-16-2014, 02:45 PM
I am agreeing with all of you that the parties involved in running this country should be fired.

You all make the point loud and clear on one hand, but join up with one or the other to continue screwing things up all around us and pointing fingers at the other on the other hand.


You have fallen for the CLASSIC old banana in your tailpipe my friends. Hey here is an idea, lets argue about the war on women for a while, cause we all know that is a major issue.

No, the fucking missing plane is the number one crisis in this country, and the world in general.

Kalkin
05-16-2014, 03:22 PM
I'm all for stopping welfare fraud the second we also stop corporate welfare.
I see a difference between giving people money for doing absolutely nothing and giving employers a tax break. In one situation, people are given other people's money, in the other, people have less of their own money taken from them.

Kalkin
05-16-2014, 03:27 PM
Nope, no more than paying a shitty government "mordita" so you can stay in business.
Hey, leave my relatives out of this! =)

Matty
05-16-2014, 03:33 PM
A bar in our town cashed ADC, Aid to Dependent Children, checks so they could get the money for the mother's bar tab first. If she cashed her check somewhere else, the bar would not let her run a tab. Some mother's use welfare responsibly and hope to get off welfare. Others use it irresponsibly and couldn't be forced off with the USDA new machine guns.

I think the proposal has merit. I don't credit the government with having any sense at all and giving people who have proven themselves, repeatedly, to be totally irresponsible or simply incapable cash maintains the government's reputation for incredible stupidity. What's next, forcing banks to give mortgages to people who have neither the ability nor the will to repay?


Yep, that is next. Obama is actually proposing that banks do exactly that. Again.

Mainecoons
05-16-2014, 04:23 PM
I see a difference between giving people money for doing absolutely nothing and giving employers a tax break. In one situation, people are given other people's money, in the other, people have less of their own money taken from them.

That is exactly the distinction and although XL and I pretty much agree, I'm sorry to see him fall into the leftist language of deceit where they use the legitimate effort of the productive to decrease government theft as justification for outright welfare theft, which is rampant.

We could take care of the really needy better if the thieves didn't steal so much. The OP has the right idea with photo ID, no cash, no junk food. I'd go further and say no convenience stores with their outrageous prices.

The biggest lobbyists for food stamps are the convenience store chains. What does that tell you?

del
05-16-2014, 06:04 PM
What corporations are doing with their tax breaks are 99% of the time legal. What is more important to you? Allowing your tax dollars to be used of non-essentials and possibly illegal drugs etc and denying children those benefits, or a corporation who uses a tax break to further business that benefits people?

good one

nothing benefits people like a ceo being paid tens or hundreds of millions of dollars

zelmo1234
05-16-2014, 07:05 PM
Again, you're caught up with this concept of "legality" and "the law." These people essentially write the laws, they have no credibility. It's as legitimate as Obamacare. Of course it's bribery and theft, you buy a politician and he gives you someone elses money. It's the definition of bribery and theft.

The system should favor no one.

Of course she is? Because the thread is about the welfare abuse in the system, which leads to fraud and that is illegal.

If you don't like the current tax code? lobby and get it changed, but don't blame a business owner for following the code! and try to say they are the same as a person that is breaking the law and scamming the system

darroll
05-16-2014, 07:31 PM
good one

nothing benefits people like a ceo being paid tens or hundreds of millions of dollarsHow much does a bad CEO make?

Blackrook
05-16-2014, 07:47 PM
You can't stop welfare fraud as long as there is welfare.

Here's an article about the Appalachians, where cans of Pepsi are a form of currency used to get around the requirement that food stamps can only be used for food.

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/367903/white-ghetto-kevin-d-williamson

zelmo1234
05-16-2014, 07:52 PM
It is true that you will never end all fraud, however MI is really doing a lot of things correctly and it is curbing the tide.

#1 we have a 48 month lifetime maximum on cash assistance for able bodied adults.

#2 we have random drug testing

and now it looks like we are trying to get the food and cash disbursement under way!

Now each and every time we have enacted some new rule. some of our life time assistance persons have moved to other states, Mostly IL, so we do lose populations, but it is only helping the economy!

del
05-16-2014, 07:53 PM
How much does a bad CEO make?

how many pancakes can you fit in a dog house?

zelmo1234
05-16-2014, 07:54 PM
good one

nothing benefits people like a ceo being paid tens or hundreds of millions of dollars

how does this hurt the people?

momsapplepie
05-16-2014, 09:54 PM
you're not going to get an answer. The attacks on business and their ceo's are nothing but jealousy and an attempt at redistribution. My question would be, what is stopping them from taking advantage of education and working hard to become one of those ceos? The answer being they are too ingrained in the "gimme I'm entitled" liberal mentality