random chinese philosophy thread

[RollingWave]

I'll throw out some philosophical arguements that I like from various ancient Chinese sources......


first up, Lao Zi (the forfather of Taoism)


大道廢，有仁義；智慧出，有大偽；六親不和，有孝慈；國家昏亂，有忠臣

"When morality s destroyed, then you see morale. When wisdom appears, so does treachery, when families relationship is poor, then you see filal piety. When the State is in chaos, then you see loyalty."

This is probably the central theme of Lao Zi's writing, pointing out the irony of standard moral
ity complex, that only when these moralitise cease to be a given, do their concept actually emerge.

This one also have Daoist origin, the most commonly citied version is from the Shiji ("The History") but it's source is from Zhuang Zi, another early Daoist thinker.

大盜竊國，小盜竊勾，竊國者侯，切勾者株

"A common thief steals hooks, a major thief steals a state, the hook stealer will be executed, the state stealer will be made king"

Again, another Daoist style comment using a almost satirical example to point out the world's irony.

[MMC]

Nice RW....are you familair Sun Lin?

[Conley]

"A common thief steals hooks, a major thief steals a state, the hook stealer will be executed, the state stealer will be made king"

Again, another Daoist style comment using a almost satirical example to point out the world's irony.

I've seen variations of this kind of comparison in American popular culture but I'm drawing a blank right now. Something along the lines of if you rob a bank xxx, but if the bank robs you xxx. Of course, rulers stealing from the State is nothing new.

[Alias]

The only Chinese philosophy I know is.....Confucious say...."Woman who fly upside down have crack up."

[RollingWave]

A few slightly later Confucian scholar that sees the divergence and debate on humanism.


天行有常，不為堯存，不為桀亡。應之以治則吉，應之以亂則凶。彊本而節用，則天不能貧；養備而動時，則天不 能病；

"The heaven's work is constant, it does not live for saints nor die for tyrants, follow it's flow and all is well, force yourself against it and chaos insues. develop farming and conserve your spending and the heaven can not make you poor, eat healthy and exercise properly and the heaven can not make you sick."

A bit idealistic in general, but Xun Zi generally points out that one should not believe that the heaven's will decides all, and should strive yourself to make things happen. though most generally later Chinese tend to use the phrase that "Planning is formed by the man, but it's success depend on the heavens" a more moderate stances acknowledging both that man should strive to succeed but ultimately luck and a greater being can be at work in determining it's success.


天將降大任於是人也，必先苦其心志，勞其筋骨，餓其體膚，空乏其身，行拂亂其所為，所以動心忍性，曾益其所 不能。人恆過，然後能改；入則無法家拂士，出則無敵國外患者，國恆亡 然後知生於憂患而死於安樂也

"If the Heaven is to give great responsibility to the man, it will first punish it's mind, tire it's bones, hungry it's body, empty it's wealth, confuse it's action, thus the man who can endure what others can not will gain great abilities. If you have no dissidents at home, and no enemies abroad, then this state is doomed, as man strive under trouble and dies in peace"

One of MenZi's most famous phrase, pointing out that great man are usually those that endured the greatest hardships, and thus that if you have no hardship, be you man or state, your going to be in trouble.

[RollingWave]

A rather famous article from the mid Tang dynasty scholar Han Yu (768-824), this was a thinly veiled jab at the establishment and it's point is still very applicable today (note, Bo Le was a famous horse raiser in ancient China)


世有伯樂，然後有千裏馬；千裏馬常有，而伯樂不常有。故雖有名馬，祗辱于奴隸人之手，駢死于槽櫪之間，不以 千裏稱也。馬之千裏者，一食或盡粟一石；食馬者不知其能千裏而食也。是馬也，雖有千裏之能，食不飽，力不足 ，才美不外見；且欲與常馬等不可得，安求其能千裏也？策之不以其道，食之不能盡其材，鳴之而不能通其意，執 策而臨之，曰：“天下無馬。”嗚呼！其真無馬邪？其真不知馬也！

"There is first Bo Le (the famed ancient Chinese horse raiser), and then there is great steeds, great steeds are common, Bo Le is not. Most great steeds are treated like common pack animals and die in manual labor and they don't call them great steeds, a great stallion eats a much larger meal a day. But if the horse raiser don't realize the horse's potential, and just feed him like a common pack animal, then the steed will go hungry and not have strength and not even be on par with a common horse. If you don't raise and feed him properly, and then go on to rant that "there are no great steeds" alas, is that because there are no good horses? or you simply don't know how to raise them?

[RollingWave]

Another bit of daoist thinking.

Lao Zhi said.(this is the general basis of the so called daoist political philosophy, and it is interesting.)


不尚賢，使民不爭；不貴難得之貨，使民不為盜；不見可欲，使民心不亂。

"Don't promote wisdom, and the people will not compete, don't promote valued goods, and the people will not steal, don't promote greed, and the people will not rebel."

Daoist generally focus on these sort of reverse thinking, which is why they remained popular throughout the centuries even though they ceased to become politically influential after around 100 BC.

Another one


善為士者，不武；善戰者，不怒；善勝敵者，不與
"A good warrior will not easily fight, a good fighter will not easily anger, a good general will not easily war"

[Carygrant]

Seems extremely negative and in this respect very much like the Old Testament --- Don't do this , or that , or anything that sounds attractive or you will ----- what?
Not be invited to tea parties on Heaven's lawns .
All rather like the prototype for Reader's Digest .

[Peter1469]

Seems extremely negative and in this respect very much like the Old Testament --- Don't do this , or that , or anything that sounds attractive or you will ----- what?
Not be invited to tea parties on Heaven's lawns .
All rather like the prototype for Reader's Digest .

Another reading of the Old Testament, especially the earlier part:

The prohibitions were not about morality, but about impure DNA. The fallen angles, the Nephilim, were breeding with humans. That is what ticked God off. Not "sin" by man.

[RollingWave]

Ahhh yes, but they lived in a time of great conflict and struggle, so it was not odd for folks to foster these sort of return to simplicity thinking.

[Carygrant]

Ahhh yes, but they lived in a time of great conflict and struggle, so it was not odd for folks to foster these sort of return to simplicity thinking.


Taking one extreme example that you quoted .
"Don't promote valued goods and the people will not steal ".
Charitably the suggestion seems at best banal , and even overstates people's capacity for honesty --- if unseen , anybody will steal anything because we are innately greedy .And the few who claim to be superior to that are all poor or soon will be and likely to be dead sooner than later . That's the picture of the world I recognise .