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Philly Rabbit
06-10-2014, 11:39 AM
http://i60.tinypic.com/15p04dz.jpg




Were the ones you never heard about and may not even have known they were presidents. My choice for best American president would be Martin Van Buren who is illustrated. (No trumpets and fanfare.)


The president was supposed to be a minor official, a federal employee of the people, a national figurehead of the government of the people who was supposed to stay out of the way of the people's affairs within the different states in fact.
From the republic's earliest years however, the federalists which included the monarchists and the nationalists wished the office to be lead by a supreme authority in charge of the central government with supreme powers. George Washington, the country's first president on the other hand reluctantly became the president as another assignment of public service despite his desires to return to a private life after years of public service including his assignment of commanding general of the continental army during the war for American independence. It was never Washington's intent despite being a federalist himself to assume any title of king and absolute ruler of the federal authority. On the opposite end of the presidential spectrum you had a Teddy Roosevelt as example who fancied himself as an American king who resented congress and hated dealing with that legislative body in order to get his enormous number of executive ordered programs into action.


Today Barrack Obama who violates the constitution which he took an oath of office to defend and protect with just about at every whim and increasingly at every turn uses his federal authority through executive orders to impose his ideological views on the citizenry, his Justice Department to enforce his orders and his IRS to punish his detractors.


Ronald Reagan once called the white house the people's house and always entered the oval office dressed appropriately for his citizen employers in jacket and tie. The central planners from the days of the founding generation federalists have always envisioned the white house as a presidential palace on the other hand. That vision has become today's reality.

Captain Obvious
06-10-2014, 11:44 AM
I won't pick one who's presidency was before my lifetime, especially long before since I really don't trust history books.

Reagan by default, I'm really not a huge Reagan fan.

Mainecoons
06-10-2014, 11:44 AM
Calvin Coolidge. He showed how to stop an economic crash in its tracks.

Worse: FDR. He turned an economic crash into an endless depression that only ended with world war.

Captain Obvious
06-10-2014, 11:45 AM
Worse: FDR. He turned an economic crash into an endless depression that only ended with world war.

Yeah, but he guaranteed the long term survival of the Democratic party.

Philly Rabbit
06-10-2014, 12:09 PM
Calvin Coolidge. He showed how to stop an economic crash in its tracks.

Worse: FDR. He turned an economic crash into an endless depression that only ended with world war.

And I'll wager that at least 70% of the members here never even heard of Coolidge.

.......... my point.

nathanbforrest45
06-10-2014, 12:16 PM
The best president this country has ever had was William Henry Harrison. He had the good sense to die after only a month in office, before he could do anything to screw things up.

Captain Obvious
06-10-2014, 12:16 PM
And I'll wager that at least 70% of the members here never even heard of Coolidge.

.......... my point.

Are you kidding me?

Yeah, the populace is generally dumbed down but I'll take that bet in a NY second.

nathanbforrest45
06-10-2014, 12:22 PM
Silent Cal.

Peter1469
06-10-2014, 12:46 PM
Coolidge

nathanbforrest45
06-10-2014, 12:47 PM
Rita Coolidge?

Matty
06-10-2014, 12:54 PM
I can't decide. Carter or obummer! Roflmfao.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SbWWNrbEano&feature=kp

Bob
06-10-2014, 12:59 PM
I said it previously and will again. All things taken into account, by far our best ever president is Ronald Reagan. And I happen to like Coolidge as well.

Republicans were well known as Liberals. I use capital to separate it from emotion.

One thing I don't know of the many things I don't know ...

When was it that Democrats took the term Liberal when it was well known it meant Republicans? I don't know the era of it. Anybody know?

Philly Rabbit
06-10-2014, 01:00 PM
The best president this country has ever had was William Henry Harrison. He had the good sense to die after only a month in office, before he could do anything to screw things up.



:grin: :rofl:

Green Arrow
06-10-2014, 01:25 PM
My top 5, in order:

JFK
Theodore Roosevelt
Thomas Jefferson
Calvin Coolidge
Andrew Jackson

nathanbforrest45
06-10-2014, 01:32 PM
My top five of the worst presidents this country has ever seen

Obama
Carter
Lincoln
FDR
Wilson

Green Arrow
06-10-2014, 01:38 PM
My top five of the worst presidents this country has ever seen

Obama
Carter
Lincoln
FDR
Wilson

The only person on your list I disagree with is Carter.

Mainecoons
06-10-2014, 01:46 PM
My top 5, in order:

JFK
Theodore Roosevelt
Thomas Jefferson
Calvin Coolidge
Andrew Jackson

You know, I worked as a grunt in the JFK campaign (wasn't old enough to vote yet) and I did admire the man for his vision and ideals. But in actuality he really didn't have sufficient time in office to accomplish anything huge and he completely screwed it with Cuba.

I'm curious as to why you rank him first.

nathanbforrest45
06-10-2014, 02:02 PM
The only person on your list I disagree with is Carter.


Carter was second only to Obama in his incompetency. His handling of the Iranian Hostage crisis, the gasoline crisis, his record of inflation, and stagnation in the economy. His "National Malaise" speech, his misplaced support for Arrafat and the PLO. He and Obama will share the Razzie Awards for the worst leaders of a superpower in the entire known universe.

nathanbforrest45
06-10-2014, 02:02 PM
You know, I worked as a grunt in the JFK campaign (wasn't old enough to vote yet) and I did admire the man for his vision and ideals. But in actuality he really didn't have sufficient time in office to accomplish anything huge and he completely screwed it with Cuba.

I'm curious as to why you rank him first.

He had a really really cool sailboat.

Mainecoons
06-10-2014, 02:04 PM
Nope, Junior was far more incompetent and did far more damage than Jimmy. He gave us that stupid war, the Department of Homeland Security, fat deficits and of course he is the reason Barack Obama got elected, the worst damage of all.

Carter was and is a decent person. Barack Obama doesn't have a decent, honest bone in his body.

Captain Obvious
06-10-2014, 02:07 PM
Nope, Junior was far more incompetent and did far more damage than Jimmy. He gave us that stupid war, the Department of Homeland Security, fat deficits and of course he is the reason Barack Obama got elected, the worst damage of all.

Carter was and is a decent person. Barack Obama doesn't have a decent, honest bone in his body.

Carter was a decent person, I think he really tried to do the right thing. He was just incompetent.

There's a reason he and Billy were brothers, two apples from the same tree.

Mainecoons
06-10-2014, 02:16 PM
Agree. Jimmy tried to micromanage the job and he didn't surround himself with competent people. I was living in D.C. at the time and got to watch Jimmy up close.

Bob
06-10-2014, 03:05 PM
My top 5, in order:

JFK
Theodore Roosevelt
Thomas Jefferson
Calvin Coolidge
Andrew Jackson

Holy smoke.

Never in a million years would I have guessed that.

JFK I voted for. I recall him very well. He taught Americans what FEAR actually is.

Bob
06-10-2014, 03:11 PM
Agree. Jimmy tried to micromanage the job and he didn't surround himself with competent people. I was living in D.C. at the time and got to watch Jimmy up close.

I voted for Carter the first time. Worst vote I cast other than for JFK and LBJ

Jimmy must have believed DC was a set up just like Georgia was. But he sure was inept. He banned the USA from being in the world Olympics.

Bob
06-10-2014, 03:14 PM
Nope, Junior was far more incompetent and did far more damage than Jimmy. He gave us that stupid war, the Department of Homeland Security, fat deficits and of course he is the reason Barack Obama got elected, the worst damage of all.

Carter was and is a decent person. Barack Obama doesn't have a decent, honest bone in his body.

Some of you keep blaming GW Bush for the war. It sounds as if you believe the left wingers who lie by saying it was his plan to invade Iraq all along.

I concede that Clinton enacted the public law to get rid of Saddam. Somehow, the fact of that law escapes notice when one wants to push all the blame onto GW Bush. Bush was against invading Iraq. This is why he constantly warned Saddam to obey or Bush would use the provisions of Clinton's public law to get him out of power.

Why do you think the Democrats were gleefully backing Bush in the war with Iraq?

It was law before Bush took office.

Bob
06-10-2014, 03:19 PM
You know, I worked as a grunt in the JFK campaign (wasn't old enough to vote yet) and I did admire the man for his vision and ideals. But in actuality he really didn't have sufficient time in office to accomplish anything huge and he completely screwed it with Cuba.

I'm curious as to why you rank him first.

Worse than that, I voted for Kennedy. I well recall what you are talking about. I was truly frightened at the time by Kennedy.

Kennedy is loved as we once loved him by the left wingers.

When Green Arrow tips his hand by ranking Kennedy first, it sure reveals a lot to me.

I can't actually blame the lad since I actually voted for him. When I told Arrow I used to be like he is, this is part of what I was talking about. I guarantee you that prior to 1980 I defended JFK to my dying breath.

Bob
06-10-2014, 03:20 PM
My top five of the worst presidents this country has ever seen

Obama
Carter
Lincoln
FDR
Wilson

I have the same list except I put Abe the outlaw on top.

Libhater
06-10-2014, 03:28 PM
I have the same list except I put Abe the outlaw on top.

I have the same list of the most horrible, and like you I think Lincoln was one of the top two of best presidents.

Bob
06-10-2014, 03:39 PM
I have the same list of the most horrible, and like you I think Lincoln was one of the top two of best presidents.

You mean worst. Thanks.

I put Abe on top due to 630,000 men, some fighting for freedom and some fighting those to restrain them, that died in combat. Add maybe 400,000 civilians and it is huge. Few presidents had the chance to have so many Americans die.

Abe to be sure was called smart. But not smart enough to correctly deal with a few states that had enough of the bull crap they endured in their opinion.

Jefferson himself mentioned changing government each 20 years and to the South, the North was interested in fucking with them.

The South gave plenty of warning.

Abe to be smart would have done it with no war at all.

The Sage of Main Street
06-10-2014, 03:56 PM
Calvin Coolidge. He showed how to stop an economic crash in its tracks.

Worse: FDR. He turned an economic crash into an endless depression that only ended with world war.

Best:
1. Monroe, in on everything, always doing more than he was required. The key player and go to guy for 50 years. Won at Trenton, won us the Louisiana Purchase, won the War of 1812, won Florida, got our military and navy rolling, inspired Manifest Destiny. Appropriately, his administration was called "The Era of Good Feeling." Hasn't happened since, except the silly delusion of Camelot. It was almost as if every President of the 19th Century wore a bracelet saying, "What Would Monroe Do?"

2. Jefferson: Made us able to have whatever democracy we have, thwarting the elitist oligarchic tyranny of a republic.

3. Jackson. Pushed into permanent and more populist place what Jefferson had enabled.

4. Polk: Got us half our country, from Mexico and Canada.

5. Teddy Roosevelt: Got his class on the straight and narrow. Inspired manliness.

6. Washington: An overpowering caretaker when the country could have easily collapsed right out of the box.

7. Lincoln: Saved the country from destroying itself in the unnecessary but foolishly inevitable Civil War. Also, opened the West, though he left the pioneers defenseless.

8. FDR: Cured the country of the terminal cancer that laissez-faire Capitalism had become.

9. Reagan: Cured the country of the terminal cancer that Ignorant-Snob Liberalism had become.

10. Eisenhower: Like Washington, a dominating father figure who prevented the country from falling apart. That happened after he left office.

Worst: George W. Bush, LBJ, Carter, Madison, John Adams, Coolidge, Hoover, Truman, JFK, George H.W. Bush, Harding. There seemed to be a dozen non-entities and mixed bags. I'd put Obama in with Wilson as a mixed bag.

Ransom
06-10-2014, 04:32 PM
Washington-Jefferson-Lincoln, not necessarily in that order....and then Obama.

The last selection for his untiring work in taking a strong majority and decades of possible rule for his Party and handing Republicans the House in 2010 and hopefully the Senate in 2014. Obama perhaps doing more for the Republican Party than any Republican in the last 10 years.

DigitalBluster
06-10-2014, 04:41 PM
In response to the OPs avatar, with its prominent confederate flag, symbolizing the former slave states of the rebellion, I feel compelled to pick Lincoln, naturally.

But as a socialist, on a forum crawling with anti-socialists (few of whom seem to know what it means), I feel obliged to pick our first Marxist-Muslim president, Comrade Obama (PBUH). :wink:

The Sage of Main Street
06-10-2014, 04:41 PM
You mean worst. Thanks.

I put Abe on top due to 630,000 men, some fighting for freedom and some fighting those to restrain them, who died in combat. Add maybe 400,000 civilians and it is huge. Few presidents had the chance to have so many Americans die.

Abe to be sure was called smart. But not smart enough to correctly deal with a few states that had enough of the bull crap they endured in their opinion.

Jefferson himself mentioned changing government each 20 years and to the South, the North was interested in fucking with them.

The South gave plenty of warning.

Abe to be smart would have done it with no war at all. We should have let the South secede provided they gave us the Prairie and Western states, except for Texas. They could take northern Mexico and the islands in the Caribbean. They'd have to stop fugitive slaves at the border or give up on getting them back. Eventually either we would have re-united or continued with peaceful separation, as we have with Canada.

Redrose
06-10-2014, 04:43 PM
My top 5, in order:

JFK
Theodore Roosevelt
Thomas Jefferson
Calvin Coolidge
Andrew Jackson

I disagree with JFK. He and Bobby were too aggressive with Cuba. I remember very well that October in '62 and how close we came to disaster.

Perianne
06-10-2014, 04:51 PM
My top five of the worst presidents this country has ever seen

Obama
Carter
Lincoln
FDR
Wilson

Without that scoundrel Lincoln, we Southerners would not have had to suffer through the rest of them.

Mainecoons
06-10-2014, 05:16 PM
Bob, I hope you don't really believe Bush attacked Iraq because of some stupid law Clinton passed, do you?

zelmo1234
06-10-2014, 05:19 PM
And I'll wager that at least 70% of the members here never even heard of Coolidge.

.......... my point.

And that is part of what made the man great. He did not look to the government for solutions! But trusted the people

Libhater
06-10-2014, 05:39 PM
And that is part of what made the man great. He did not look to the government for solutions! But trusted the people

Yeah, and another reason people might not of heard of him is that he was a reserved fella having the nickname 'Silent Cal'

darroll
06-10-2014, 06:36 PM
Harry Truman.
He was honest and did not leave office rich.

Green Arrow
06-10-2014, 07:46 PM
You know, I worked as a grunt in the JFK campaign (wasn't old enough to vote yet) and I did admire the man for his vision and ideals. But in actuality he really didn't have sufficient time in office to accomplish anything huge and he completely screwed it with Cuba.

I'm curious as to why you rank him first.

It's true that he wasn't in office long enough to make as much of an impact as most of our other Presidents, but I evaluate him on what he did. For example, when the Bay of Pigs fiasco happened, the CIA lied to him and gave him false information. Did JFK get on national TV and blame them for it? Or anyone else for that matter? Nope, he took full responsibility. How often does that happen these days, particularly in the Age of Obama?

He also tried to limit the Federal Reserve, took the first step toward withdrawing from Vietnam (which LBJ immediately reversed after JFK's death), worked toward civil rights, halted Operation Northwoods in its tracks, and he wasn't afraid to seek advice from predecessor Eisenhower, rather than rush into a decision that could doom America.

I think if Obama had resolved to be a Kennedy rather than an FDR, we would be in much better shape.

Green Arrow
06-10-2014, 07:53 PM
I disagree with JFK. He and Bobby were too aggressive with Cuba. I remember very well that October in '62 and how close we came to disaster.

Every President has made mistakes, some worse than others. I would have preferred we made Cuba an ally instead of an enemy.

Redrose
06-10-2014, 10:36 PM
I think if Obama had resolved to be a Kennedy rather than an FDR, we would be in much better shape.

Very true. JFK said "ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".

Obama has promoted just the opposite.

The Sage of Main Street
06-11-2014, 12:01 PM
I disagree with JFK. He and Bobby were too aggressive with Cuba. I remember very well that October in '62 and how close we came to disaster. He was a loose cannon that the CIA, in a joint operation with the KGB, had to get rid of to avoid World War III.

nathanbforrest45
06-11-2014, 12:07 PM
He was a loose cannon that the CIA, in a joint operation with the KGB, had to get rid of to avoid World War III.

His mother was actually an alien space being from the Blue Green Planet in the Haverstet Galaxy. This is a little known fact.

Redrose
06-11-2014, 03:23 PM
He was a loose cannon that the CIA, in a joint operation with the KGB, had to get rid of to avoid World War III.

After 50 years we still don't know the truth. What you suggest is probably the closest to the truth. My late sister-in-law worked as an intern/aid in the LBJAdministration, she often told us of stories of LBJ bragging to his inside circle how he "took care of that SOB Kennedy".

nic34
06-11-2014, 03:30 PM
I disagree with JFK. He and Bobby were too aggressive with Cuba. I remember very well that October in '62 and how close we came to disaster.

20/20 hindsight

Ransom
06-11-2014, 04:36 PM
Bob, I hope you don't really believe Bush attacked Iraq because of some stupid law Clinton passed, do you?

I hope he isn't completely ignorant of the realities in Iraq pre-Bush like you are though.

Bob, I wouln't get in an exchange with Maine over Iraq....until I learn the boy on the issue. He's a ways to go yet.

So little time, so many clueless. But Maine is close. He's can be taught......just a tad bull headed and and wholesale ignorant.

Philly Rabbit
06-12-2014, 07:25 AM
Since the early days of the republic, the republicans fought against the nationalists (called the federalists) in order to prevent what has happened to the executive branch becoming the center piece along with it's presidential palace of a central authoritarian government which is now become an overreaching nationalist branch of executive powers outside it's constitutional boundaries by it's current head, Barrack Obama.

The Sage of Main Street
06-12-2014, 03:11 PM
After 50 years we still don't know the truth. What you suggest is probably the closest to the truth. My late sister-in-law worked as an intern/aid in the LBJAdministration, she often told us of stories of LBJ bragging to his inside circle how he "took care of that SOB Kennedy". At least LBJ didn't push us to the brink of thermonuclear war just so he could play tough guy fraternity bully in Cuba.

KC
06-12-2014, 03:25 PM
20/20 hindsight

Right. And from his perspective it must have looked like it couldn't go wrong, given the relative ease with which the CIA had already orchestrated coups in Iran and Guatemala.

Montoya
06-12-2014, 05:36 PM
FDR
JFK
Lincoln
Teddy Roosevelt
Barack Obama

Codename Section
06-12-2014, 05:59 PM
Jefferson Coolidge JFK Carter Eisenhower all for different reasons

texan
06-12-2014, 06:34 PM
Reagan because he killed off the USSSR and created a great economy. Kind of the opposite of the genius' now.

Bob
06-12-2014, 06:50 PM
Supporters of JFK do it on emotion. I see no reason why he gets many votes to be the top president.

And I voted for the man.

Bob
06-12-2014, 06:53 PM
Jefferson proposed changing government each 20 years. He was poor at economics based on his enormous debt he racked up. A for literature. His collection started the Library of Congress.

Can't say he did much more than run a then tiny government.

Today's government is far more complex than those were.

Peter1469
06-12-2014, 07:16 PM
Have you been to the Library of Congress? The Jefferson collection is pretty cool. I was there with the ex, and I said- hey look, a Lord of the Rings trilogy! :smiley:


Jefferson proposed changing government each 20 years. He was poor at economics based on his enormous debt he racked up. A for literature. His collection started the Library of Congress.

Can't say he did much more than run a then tiny government.

Today's government is far more complex than those were.

Codename Section
06-12-2014, 07:36 PM
Supporters of JFK do it on emotion. I see no reason why he gets many votes to be the top president.

And I voted for the man.

Because of his views on secret societies, his WTF over Northwoods, and whatever it was he did to piss off Johnson.

Codename Section
06-12-2014, 07:36 PM
Jefferson proposed changing government each 20 years. He was poor at economics based on his enormous debt he racked up. A for literature. His collection started the Library of Congress.

Can't say he did much more than run a then tiny government.

Today's government is far more complex than those were.

Because we completely abandoned federalism.

Mister D
06-12-2014, 07:43 PM
Jefferson Coolidge JFK Carter Eisenhower all for different reasons

Jefferson was a virus.

Codename Section
06-12-2014, 08:23 PM
Jefferson was a virus.

Whatevs dude.

Mister D
06-12-2014, 08:26 PM
Whatevs dude.

Jefferson was a virus.

Bob
06-12-2014, 08:40 PM
http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=648842#post648842)
Jefferson proposed changing government each 20 years. He was poor at economics based on his enormous debt he racked up. A for literature. His collection started the Library of Congress.

Can't say he did much more than run a then tiny government.

Today's government is far more complex than those were.


Because we completely abandoned federalism.

Thanks for the support.

Bob
06-12-2014, 08:49 PM
Because of his views on secret societies, his WTF over Northwoods, and whatever it was he did to piss off Johnson.

The entire deal on JFK is he was killed on duty. Had he served, speculation as to what he may have done, generally accords him a lot of favor when his actual accomplishments were slight. He was killed way too early. He seemed a pleasant sort given his penchant for the ladies but let's take off his halo and admit he did nothing much.

Bob
06-12-2014, 08:53 PM
Have you been to the Library of Congress? The Jefferson collection is pretty cool. I was there with the ex, and I said- hey look, a Lord of the Rings trilogy! :smiley:

There are things I wish I had done in DC. I farted around my first time there looking at Civil War Battle sites. I did enter DC from Falls Church and went to several Smithsonian's, air and space, etc. I have still to see the other museums. When I last was there. I figured that I would be back in a year or two. I drove one time past the ambassadors homes and had I gone up the hill more, I would have seen this church that is famous. DC is a project all by itself on vacations. I would love to see the library and the national archives and other well known places too.

Trip 2-- I did see more museums, such as the natural history museum and the american history museum. I returned that trip to the air and space museum since my daughter had not seen it.

Bob
06-12-2014, 08:56 PM
I highly recommend both Monticello and Mt,. Vernon.

Democrats adore Washington yet he was super rich. Don't know how they felt about him being super rich.

Green Arrow
06-12-2014, 09:53 PM
Supporters of JFK do it on emotion. I see no reason why he gets many votes to be the top president.

And I voted for the man.

I gave a completely non-emotional list of reasons why I support JFK. Don't get too close to the needles, they might puncture your bubble.

Green Arrow
06-12-2014, 09:55 PM
Reagan because he killed off the USSSR and created a great economy. Kind of the opposite of the genius' now.

Except he did neither of those things. It was the people of the Soviet satellites and Russia's own gaffs that destroyed the USSR, not Reagan's speech-making, and most of the economic boom we got with Reagan was the result of policies put into place by Carter.

Redrose
06-12-2014, 10:00 PM
At least LBJ didn't push us to the brink of thermonuclear war just so he could play tough guy fraternity bully in Cuba.

Precisely, that's the logic behind his assassination.
LBJ let it be known he disagreed with how JFK and RFK were handling things. LBJ indicated he would be easier to work with and wouldn't rile Russia. Our own government killed JFK. The Cuban Missile Crisis scared the crap out of many in the upper echelon of our government. They weren't about to let it happen again. Old papa Joe Kennedy taught his sons to fight with each other to teach them masculine behavior, from sports to women. He taught them to be highly competitive at everything, never lose, win at any cost, legally or illegally, honestly or dishonestly. Any means to the end was his motto. JFK/RFK were highly competitive, very thin skinned, and extremely vindictive. Both of them never forgave a slight. They brooded until revenge could be taken. LBJ didn't kill JFK, but he indirectly or some say directly permitted it to happen. He knew by the end of 11/22/63 he would be president.

These are not my words, this is a brief synopsis from Jackie O's memoirs.

Libhater
06-13-2014, 05:57 AM
Except he did neither of those things. It was the people of the Soviet satellites and Russia's own gaffs that destroyed the USSR, not Reagan's speech-making, and most of the economic boom we got with Reagan was the result of policies put into place by Carter.

OMG....get real. Talk about a revisionist theory of sorts.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 06:17 AM
OMG....get real. Talk about a revisionist theory of sorts.

Let me know when you come back to the table with something compelling.

Bob
06-13-2014, 06:21 AM
Bob, I hope you don't really believe Bush attacked Iraq because of some stupid law Clinton passed, do you?

If you think laws do not matter, then put all the blame on Bush.

If you think the previous decade of the US vs Saddam Hussein was just nothing, blame only Bush.

If you think that Saddam did not flaunt the UN, blame only Bush.

If you are naive enough to believe Democrats were NOT open and eager for war, blame only Bush.

If you ignore history, blame only Bush.

In fact, if you can't recall that Bush handed Saddam a free get out of jail pass, blame only Bush.

What you would be telling me is Saddam was innocent and that the congress on both sides were approving war just did not count.

Libhater
06-13-2014, 06:24 AM
Let me know when you come back to the table with something compelling.

Pretty hard to top your compelling revisionist slant on the truth, so I'll just sit back and watch you make a fool of yourself.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 06:25 AM
If you think laws do not matter, then put all the blame on Bush.

If you think the previous decade of the US vs Saddam Hussein was just nothing, blame only Bush.

If you think that Saddam did not flaunt the UN, blame only Bush.

If you are naive enough to believe Democrats were NOT open and eager for war, blame only Bush.

If you ignore history, blame only Bush.

In fact, if you can't recall that Bush handed Saddam a free get out of jail pass, blame only Bush.

What you would be telling me is Saddam was innocent and that the congress on both sides were approving war just did not count.

So, Bush and his Republican majority had no power to repeal the law?

Bob
06-13-2014, 06:25 AM
At least LBJ didn't push us to the brink of thermonuclear war just so he could play tough guy fraternity bully in Cuba.

LBJ in large part gets the blame for 58,000 US Vets being killed. What a swell guy he was. :rollseyes:

Bob
06-13-2014, 06:27 AM
So, Bush and his Republican majority had no power to repeal the law?

What do you mean? Congress made the law. Clinton signed it. Do you recall Congress being against the Clinton law?
Green Arrow, I am still trying to locate your brilliant defense of JFK. Do you mind pointing out the post?

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 06:27 AM
Pretty hard to top your compelling revisionist slant on the truth, so I'll just sit back and watch you make a fool of yourself.

Go chew on this (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/25626-Carter-revisited).

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 06:28 AM
What do you mean? Congress made the law. Clinton signed it. Do you recall Congress being against the Clinton law?

Can you not answer the question? You say Bush shouldn't be blamed for the Iraq War all because Clinton passed a law. Was Bush and his GOP majority incapable of repealing that law?

Bob
06-13-2014, 06:34 AM
Except he did neither of those things. It was the people of the Soviet satellites and Russia's own gaffs that destroyed the USSR, not Reagan's speech-making, and most of the economic boom we got with Reagan was the result of policies put into place by Carter.

Let's see. Reagan did much more. He took a personal role in freeing millions. I rank Reagan our best ever not on how many he killed, but how many he freed. I don't know what left wing book you got that from, but the left does as you do and tries to destroy who Reagan was and his many accomplishments.

I recall voting for Carter. I would have voted for him again if he did what you claim he did. I tried then to tell people Carter will save the economy. When he made it worse, I got off his parade.

What the left wing book you read failed to tell you is that Reagan went to the Soviet Union and directly addressed the public of the Soviet union and Reagan tipped the scales so the Soviets collapsed.

I have been a student of this since around 1963. I lived daily with those presidents you discuss. I know the way the left wingers went at Reagan 100 percent to put all the credit on Russia. Russia did not want to collapse. A nut believes they wanted to collapse.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 06:35 AM
Let's see. Reagan did much more. He took a personal role in freeing millions. I rank Reagan our best ever not on how many he killed, but how many he freed. I don't know what left wing book you got that from, but the left does as you do and tries to destroy who Reagan was and his many accomplishments.

What millions did he free? Where? How did he free them?

Bob
06-13-2014, 06:37 AM
Can you not answer the question? You say Bush shouldn't be blamed for the Iraq War all because Clinton passed a law. Was Bush and his GOP majority incapable of repealing that law?

This is your age showing. And you accept as gospel too much you get from left wingers.

What GOP majority? The one he had for a couple of months?

What you can't understand is that Bush jumped onto the escalator. He did not start it. Saddam had options to keep from being attacked. But Saddam refused. Now answer my question.

The congress would block Bush had he tried to do as you claim.

Perianne
06-13-2014, 06:37 AM
...most of the economic boom we got with Reagan was the result of policies put into place by Carter.
Green Arrow

Please explain.

Bob
06-13-2014, 06:39 AM
What millions did he free? Where? How did he free them?

I really resent your smear job on Reagan.

Millions in East Germany were freed, more millions in Russia and millions more in the satellites.

I now see your basis for being anti Republican. You were sold a bill of crap. :smiley:

kilgram
06-13-2014, 06:39 AM
Some of you keep blaming GW Bush for the war. It sounds as if you believe the left wingers who lie by saying it was his plan to invade Iraq all along.

I concede that Clinton enacted the public law to get rid of Saddam. Somehow, the fact of that law escapes notice when one wants to push all the blame onto GW Bush. Bush was against invading Iraq. This is why he constantly warned Saddam to obey or Bush would use the provisions of Clinton's public law to get him out of power.

Why do you think the Democrats were gleefully backing Bush in the war with Iraq?

It was law before Bush took office.
That law that only harmed the people of Iraq. Good policies. Destroy the people just to overthrow a dictator. Nice policies.

Libhater
06-13-2014, 06:40 AM
Go chew on this (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/25626-Carter-revisited).

Oh great, now there are two of you revisionists out of approximately 350 million people. Carry on if you must.

Bob
06-13-2014, 06:43 AM
http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Green Arrow http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=649006#post649006)
...most of the economic boom we got with Reagan was the result of policies put into place by Carter.



@Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868)

Please explain.

He is educated by the left. And it explains how he gets it wrong.

I was analysing the economy well before Carter. My first US economics analysis dates to about 1967.

I voted for Carter. Had he done what Arrow says I would never have voted for Reagan since Carter had been my man.

Economic malaise was what Carter gave us.

Perianne
06-13-2014, 06:44 AM
He is educated by the left. And it explains how he gets it wrong.

I was analysing the economy well before Carter. My first US economics analysis dates to about 1967.

I voted for Carter. Had he done what Arrow says I would never have voted for Reagan since Carter had been my man.

Economic malaise was what Carter gave us.

I was alive and came of political age during the Carter years. It was hell, like today.

Regardless, I am interested in hearing what Green Arrow has to say.

Bob
06-13-2014, 06:45 AM
That law that only harmed the people of Iraq. Good policies. Destroy the people just to overthrow a dictator. Nice policies.

What Green Arrow and left wingers refuse to admit is that Clinton bombed the hell out of Iraq. Why would a president do that to a nation that was innocent?

The entire mood of congress was to stop Saddam. War was one way.

Bush offered Saddam a way out of war. Saddam refused.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 06:45 AM
@Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868)

Please explain.

Carter Revisited (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/25626-Carter-revisited)

Bob
06-13-2014, 06:47 AM
I was alive and came of political age during the Carter years. It was hell, like today.

Regardless, I am interested in hearing what Green Arrow has to say.

I voted for JFK so I well recall Carter. I made many economical predictions when Carter was president. I did not think he was so bad my predictions would not pan out.

Before I voted for Reagan, I defended Carter to anybody that would listen. The man messed up. I had no choice but to vote for Reagan and hope. It worked out well. I am happy Reagan won.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 06:48 AM
I really resent your smear job on Reagan.

Then put on your big girl panties and prove it wrong.


Millions in East Germany were freed, more millions in Russia and millions more in the satellites.

What did Reagan do to free them?


I now see your basis for being anti Republican. You were sold a bill of crap. :smiley:

I'm not anti-Republican. I've voted 80% Republican in my life and plan to vote Republican again this November and 2016 if my candidate is on the ballot.

Now, would you like to get back on topic? I am not the topic.

Bob
06-13-2014, 06:49 AM
One thing that annoys me about Green Arrow is he uses a tag that supports socialism. Eugene V Debs was this nations foremost communist.

Libhater
06-13-2014, 06:49 AM
I was alive and came of political age during the Carter years. It was hell, like today.

Regardless, I am interested in hearing what Green Arrow has to say.

I got married to my first wife in the seventies when we had to wait in endless gas lines just to fill up our tanks. Sometimes the wait was 3 to 4 hours. Wasn't the economic misery index created as a result of carter's failure as president? Reagan freed those 400+ hostages held over from the carter daze on his first day in office.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 06:50 AM
What Green Arrow and left wingers refuse to admit is that Clinton bombed the hell out of Iraq. Why would a president do that to a nation that was innocent?

The entire mood of congress was to stop Saddam. War was one way.

Bush offered Saddam a way out of war. Saddam refused.

Why don't you ask me what I believe and who I blame, instead of telling me? Because you're full of it.

Bob
06-13-2014, 07:00 AM
Then put on your big girl panties and prove it wrong.

Fuck you and the dog too. Do not talk down to me this way.



What did Reagan do to free them

You Reagan haters sure don't know history. Reagan did a lot. It would take pages and pages to explain the entire story. Freedom came to the Soviets with a catalyst. Reagan was the catalyst. From Russia to E. Germany to Poland, they felt supported by Reagan and were able to be freed. You probably know nothing about the 1956 Hungarian uprising. Joe Nemeth who served with me in Germany came from Hungary and was a university student when they were put down by the Soviet tanks. Joe educated me on what happened to people living in the Soviet system. Joe and I would visit places in Germany and he told me a lot. But I went to Berlin and saw it for myself. I do not plan to spend all day long trying to teach you history because I have yet to see you listen. You argue all the time that i am full of shit.

I lived this stuff.

Hungary and other events persuaded the people living under the Soviet rule that America would not lift a finger to help them. We were called a paper tiger. You would not know that because you did not live it.

Reagan put fire in the belly of those living under the Soviets. This he did when he went to the Soviet lands and told the people there we would fully back them. This scared the hell out of the Soviet leaders and they realized that at last, America had a true leader. A leader that took on the Soviets. Reagan also installed missiles that the Soviets feared. Reagan's star wars was no bluff. Gorbachev both respected but feared Reagan and decided to end holding onto a failed system.

You honor Eugene V Debs in your tag.

You honor a communist. My uncle was named after that man and I very well know who he was.



I'm not anti-Republican. I've voted 80% Republican in my life and plan to vote Republican again this November and 2016 if my candidate is on the ballot.

Now, would you like to get back on topic? I am not the topic.

You tried to make me your topic.

Codename Section
06-13-2014, 07:00 AM
@Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868)

Please explain.

Economies are like the Titanic, they don't turn quickly. Carter got a horrible trending economy leftover from foreign wars, the drug war, the war on poverty, etc, and put in place things that (look it up) Ronald Reagan said as governor were good ideas. Reagan kept his FR chair, kept the fiscal policies in the beginning because they were sound.

There's a thread on it somewhere.

Reagan had a better game face, better use of the bully pulpit, and was showy-er than Carter so the turn that came seemed like it was all Reagan's doing. Conservatives loved Reagan like progressives love Obama, no one sees them for their bad, only the good. Reagan had a Teddy Roosevelt bullshitter quality that made people feel pumped up about America and you didn't really care about Iran Contra or cocaine running.

He was a great "president" but not a great president. Our system isn't designed to allow great presidents to get into office or make change.

Bob
06-13-2014, 07:03 AM
Why don't you ask me what I believe and who I blame, instead of telling me? Because you're full of it.


You act like a child. I said I have not seen you admit. Learn to read before flying off the handle.

You go out of your way to provoke me. This is not merely recently but well before you said you have problems with me. I had long noticed your arrogance.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 07:07 AM
You act like a child. I said I have not seen you admit. Learn to read before flying off the handle.

You go out of your way to provoke me. This is not merely recently but well before you said you have problems with me. I had long noticed your arrogance.

Seriously, dude? You've been rude to me this whole thread and have refused to consider a word I say. I've been attempting to engage you in discussion, and get spit on every time.

You know what, fuck you, Bob. I'm sick of this shit. Don't bother responding to me anymore. I'll be ignoring you from now on.

Bob
06-13-2014, 07:08 AM
Economies are like the Titanic, they don't turn quickly. Carter got a horrible trending economy leftover from foreign wars, the drug war, the war on poverty, etc, and put in place things that (look it up) Ronald Reagan said as governor were good ideas. Reagan kept his FR chair, kept the fiscal policies in the beginning because they were sound.

There's a thread on it somewhere.

Reagan had a better game face, better use of the bully pulpit, and was showy-er than Carter so the turn that came seemed like it was all Reagan's doing. Conservatives loved Reagan like progressives love Obama, no one sees them for their bad, only the good. Reagan had a Teddy Roosevelt bullshitter quality that made people feel pumped up about America and you didn't really care about Iran Contra or cocaine running.

He was a great "president" but not a great president. Our system isn't designed to allow great presidents to get into office or make change.


You guys were not even born when he was president. I and others posting not only voted for them, we recall the before and after.

I was a very staunch and committed to Carter voter.

Do you think that I as a long term Democrat, starting with voting for JFK and LBJ would abandon Carter because he did what you claim he did?

You guys that did not live under Carter get your information from what seems to me, to be left winger books or left wing media. They lied to you.

I would have backed Carter over Reagan had he done what you claim he did.

Reagan gets the blame for deregulation when a lot of that was Carter. Carter did a fine job on that issue but the Democrats blame Reagan.

This is a bitch with me since the first president I can actually say I recall was FDR. Some still worship that man. But FDR did a lot of wrong things.

Bob
06-13-2014, 07:09 AM
Seriously, dude? You've been rude to me this whole thread and have refused to consider a word I say. I've been attempting to engage you in discussion, and get spit on every time.

You know what, fuck you, Bob. I'm sick of this shit. Don't bother responding to me anymore. I'll be ignoring you from now on.

Tell the truth and I will pay attention.

i still did not find your clever defense of JFK

Codename Section
06-13-2014, 07:12 AM
I got married to my first wife in the seventies when we had to wait in endless gas lines just to fill up our tanks. Sometimes the wait was 3 to 4 hours. Wasn't the economic misery index created as a result of carter's failure as president? Reagan freed those 400+ hostages held over from the carter daze on his first day in office.

Carter did all of the negotiations. You don't come in and "free" someone. Seriously...you guys are as bad as Obamabots. None of the bad was his fault, all of the good that came out of Carter was to his credit.

Gas prices are not something that a president at that time could control. This was the rise of the OPEC cartel. Cartels, by their nature, set prices. Does Clinton get credit for the $.98 gallon gas and is it Bush's fault it rose over $2.00?

I hope to God someday I'm not telling my kids that Ron Paul could turn water into wine and cure leprosy.

Codename Section
06-13-2014, 07:14 AM
You guys were not even born when he was president. I and others posting not only voted for them, we recall the before and after.

I'll tell you what then, please don't talk about Lincoln, Wilson, or Jefferson because you weren't born then. And don't mention Iraq or Afghanistan because unlike me you've never been there. How's that? We'll confine our opinions to our own lives and places we've been to only. :rollseyes:

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 07:15 AM
Carter did all of the negotiations. You don't come in and "free" someone. Seriously...you guys are as bad as Obamabots. None of the bad was his fault, all of the good that came out of Carter was to his credit.

Gas prices are not something that a president at that time could control. This was the rise of the OPEC cartel. Cartels, by their nature, set prices. Does Clinton get credit for the $.98 gallon gas and is it Bush's fault it rose over $2.00?

I hope to God someday I'm not telling my kids that Ron Paul could turn water into wine and cure leprosy.

Speak for yourself, I've seen his miracles! Why do you think the Republicans and Democrats tried to crucify him?

Codename Section
06-13-2014, 07:18 AM
Green Arrow and Bob

I'm going to say this because I'm probably the only one that can right now. I like you both but I want you to both knock it the fuck off. This is beyond annoying already. The rest of us don't want to read this feud.

Bob you don't get to tell him how he feels about stuff or diminish his opinions because of his age. That age things swings both ways. You wouldn't like it if he told you that your opinion doesn't count because you're senile.

GA the old you wouldn't have told him to fuck off. I remember a kid who used to me more of a hippie like E.Nygma. Harness that chi and get back to being you.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 07:22 AM
@Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) and @Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013)

I'm going to say this because I'm probably the only one that can right now. I like you both but I want you to both knock it the fuck off. This is beyond annoying already. The rest of us don't want to read this feud.

Bob you don't get to tell him how he feels about stuff or diminish his opinions because of his age. That age things swings both ways. You wouldn't like it if he told you that your opinion doesn't count because you're senile.

GA the old you wouldn't have told him to fuck off. I remember a kid who used to me more of a hippie like E.Nygma. Harness that chi and get back to being you.

It's fine, it's done. I've tried time and again to engage him in honest debate and get the same bullshit every time. If that's how he wants to be, fine, I'll just put him on mental ignore.

Bob
06-13-2014, 07:23 AM
Codename Section


He was a great "president" but not a great president. Our system isn't designed to allow great presidents to get into office or make change.

I don't want you to do what GA pulled and bail out.

Reagan is great for several reasons. I won't spend half a day posting just to name all of the things Reagan did.

I lived with Carter. I know how he was. I come at this having been a huge fan of Carter. I voted for Carter. Reagan is my first ever republican president I voted for.

Carter had the country in a mess. It is so emotional for me it's hard to contain myself.

Watching some claim Reagan did nothing but Carter did gets under myskin.

None of you but for Nathan or maybe a couple others recall WW 2. Or Korea for that matter. We lived it. You guys were exposed to that in a paragraph in some book.

We suffered. You guys read.

Reagan did much more than left wing books told you. Their aims were to knock down Reagan.

I have reports I plan to post showing the books and media are completely shills for the left.

I have been saving it till a few things die down.

Reagan freed millions. Not by combat, but by taking a personal hand in making sure the people of the Soviets heard his messages in person.

The Soviets had their people believing that America will refuse to help them get free.
Reagan changed all of that. They lived in fear of the Soviet System. They needed a friend and Reagan made sure he was seen as their friend.

While American make little of the Reagan speech to tear down that wall, that was powerful. The people in soviet areas suddenly felt hope. They believed Reagan would rush to help them.

It would take me 20 pages just to explain it all. But Reagan by far did more than any president on behalf of America.

Refugee
06-13-2014, 07:24 AM
You do tend to fly off the handle a bit GA. The vast majority of the entire planet does not see things the way you see them. I’ve disagreed with Bob on some things and he with me, but never have we come to the ‘Fuck you’ stage and I doubt we ever would. That’s maturity at work my friend, it’s the difference between agreeing to disagree and the ‘fuck you’ bit when you feel unable to debate your point with civility. :smiley:

Bob
06-13-2014, 07:25 AM
It's fine, it's done. I've tried time and again to engage him in honest debate and get the same bullshit every time. If that's how he wants to be, fine, I'll just put him on mental ignore.

You proudly sport a communist tag line Green Arrow.

From Day one I saw it. I know who he was.

But you sell me short. I have had to deal with tons of your posts selling me short.

It is as if the 22 year old knows all of this but the political student that experienced all this knows nothing.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 07:28 AM
You do tend to fly off the handle a bit GA. The vast majority of the entire planet does not see things the way you see them. I’ve disagreed with Bob on some things and he with me, but never have we come to the ‘Fuck you’ stage and I doubt we ever would. That’s maturity at work my friend, it’s the difference between agreeing to disagree and the ‘fuck you’ bit when you feel unable to debate your point with civility.


I lost my temper. It happens on occasion. I really resent being talked down to and having everything I say tossed out just because I'm 22. It's ageism, nothing more. Would you appreciate me calling you senile or suffering from dementia, and therefore nothing you say should be considered?

Codename Section
06-13-2014, 07:31 AM
You proudly sport a communist tag line @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868).

From Day one I saw it. I know who he was.

But you sell me short. I have had to deal with tons of your posts selling me short.

It is as if the 22 year old knows all of this but the political student that experienced all this knows nothing.

Bob

your problem with GA is none of our business. I should not even have to know you have a problem with him. It's not even a favoritism thing because I've called out GA, too. I'll say for the record that Alyosha's problem with Kabuki Joe shouldn't have been any of our business. She didn't like him and it vomited into thread after thread for awhile there. It should have stayed in the Hole and not bled all over the forum. Junie's and Ravi's problem with Alyosha shouldn't be my business but they made it everyone's business. Captain Obvious's problem with Ethereal is none of my fucking business, either. If I have to read about butthurt one more time I'll pull my fucking hair out.

It's just plain selfish to infect threads with personal feuds that none of the rest of us care about.

Your opinion about his age is not my business. It's just not. Keep it to yourself.

Codename Section
06-13-2014, 07:36 AM
@Codename Section (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=866)

Reagan is great for several reasons. I won't spend half a day posting just to name all of the things Reagan did.


It would take me 20 pages just to explain it all. But Reagan by far did more than any president on behalf of America.


My parents are dyed in the wool conservative Republicans with Reagan's picture on the wall. I went to schools in Mississippi. I assure you my indoctrination was pro-Reagan instead of anti-Reagan.

I thought just like you did until I did my own reading. Facts don't lie. It is a fact that economies don't turn over night. It is a fact that Iran Contra was illegal. It is a fact that Carter negotiated the hostage return. It is a fact that Reagan supported Carter's policies and wrote an editorial about it as governor. It is a fact that he kept Carter's FR chair and his policies for the first few years.

I didn't say he was a piece of shit. I'm saying we all have things we live through that we were excited about and see as being awesome but weren't. He-Man cartoons, for example. When I watch them now I realize how fucking gay they were. You couldn't have convinced me at the time they were stupid. Obamabots will never think he was an asshole.

It's just how shit is.

Matty
06-13-2014, 07:39 AM
"I love waking up to the smell of napalm in the morning." :)

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 07:44 AM
"I love waking up to the smell of napalm in the morning." :)

"It smells like...victory."

Bob
06-13-2014, 07:45 AM
Green Arrow defending JFK


It's true that he wasn't in office long enough to make as much of an impact as most of our other Presidents, but I evaluate him on what he did. For example, when the Bay of Pigs fiasco happened, the CIA lied to him and gave him false information. Did JFK get on national TV and blame them for it? Or anyone else for that matter? Nope, he took full responsibility. How often does that happen these days, particularly in the Age of Obama?

He also tried to limit the Federal Reserve, took the first step toward withdrawing from Vietnam (which LBJ immediately reversed after JFK's death), worked toward civil rights, halted Operation Northwoods in its tracks, and he wasn't afraid to seek advice from predecessor Eisenhower, rather than rush into a decision that could doom America.

I think if Obama had resolved to be a Kennedy rather than an FDR, we would be in much better shape.

Sentence one where you say he was not in office long enough is correct.

Kennedy was not wise on how one conducts invasions.

The Bay of Pigs could have been a total victory for Kennedy. Saying the CIA lied to Kennedy when Kennedy talked it over with Eisenhower puts the blame on the CIA when it was a military mission and the Generals could have whipped Cuba hands down.

Cuba was Kennedy's for the taking. No doubt at all.

I did not get upset at the time due to my then youth. I was happy to not have war. But as a military mission, Kennedy who served in the Navy with their then version of swift boats was over his head. Eisenhower the General no doubt would done it different.

Kennedy did not do what he did because of the CIA. I have no clue who told you that.

Kennedy was much more open than Obama. Kennedy did get on national TV and discuss that and the navy blockade over the missiles.

Had Russia not blinked, what would Kennedy then done?

As to Vietnam, Kennedy added special forces to Vietnam. I recall when he did it. I was in the Army. Both at Ft. Ord and at Ft. Benning, I served with some guys that were sent to Vietnam. What pull out are you talking about?

I am in the dark on what you mean about the Federal Reserve. I can't recall a thing about that. But I don't recall any changes.

Civil rights. Kennedy hardly mentioned this. He actually was scared we Democrats would not vote for him again if he did much. LBJ gets credit credit but republicans actually drove it. Democrats not only in the South but even we in CA (we did not know much about what happened in the South) simply thought the blacks were making a big deal out of nothing.

We were not seeing Jim Crow laws nor blacks being mistreated. We as well as most of the country in that era were not that well informed what blacks endured in the South.

Democrats led the fight to stop civil rights.

Don't believe me. The library of congress has wonderful reports on this in enormous detail.

JFK came from a rich family and was used to fine things. Not many of you recall this but he spent a lot of time out on fancy sailing boats. He had women coming at him all the time.

His rank in the Navy was similar to what Bush had been in the Air Force.

Codename Section
06-13-2014, 07:48 AM
Bush wasn't in the Air Force. He was in the Texas Air National Guard.

Refugee
06-13-2014, 07:51 AM
I lost my temper. It happens on occasion. I really resent being talked down to and having everything I say tossed out just because I'm 22. It's ageism, nothing more. Would you appreciate me calling you senile or suffering from dementia, and therefore nothing you say should be considered?

Have you wondered that it’s not because of your age, but your views? I’ve met many 22 year olds who are switched on and many whose views border on the childish. It might not be the age, but rather some odd views that people find puzzling? If I held some of the views on the forum, then yes, I probably would be considered senile, so it’s not really just age, it’s views and a way of debating that count. If you don’t have a strong position then you’re going to get a lot of expected flak.

Kilgram is an example; having a debate there is like an out of the body experience, but to his credit, he holds strong views which he defends. It’s having views which you can defend, rather than age.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 07:54 AM
Have you wondered that it’s not because of your age, but your views? I’ve met many 22 year olds who are switched on and many whose views border on the childish. It might not be the age, but rather some odd views that people find puzzling? If I held some of the views on the forum, then yes, I probably would be considered senile, so it’s not really just age, it’s views and a way of debating that count. If you don’t have a strong position then you’re going to get a lot of expected flak.

Kilgram is an example; having a debate there is like an out of the body experience, but to his credit, he holds strong views which he defends. It’s having views which you can defend, rather than age.


It's hard to put it off on views when the exact words of criticism used pertain solely to age. Besides, I've never had a problem defending my views and doing so in a way that anyone should be able to understand.

Perianne
06-13-2014, 07:54 AM
Bob Green Arrow

Go to your rooms. This is why we can't have nice stuff. :)

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 07:55 AM
@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013) @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868)

Go to your rooms. This is why we can't have nice stuff. :)

As I said, it's done. Per Codename Section's suggestion, I'm watching Star Trek: The Next Generation (one of my favorite shows) and getting my chill back :cool:

Perianne
06-13-2014, 07:57 AM
As I said, it's done. Per @Codename Section (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=866)'s suggestion, I'm watching Star Trek: The Next Generation (one of my favorite shows) and getting my chill back :cool:

You can watch it as long as you watch it in your room.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 07:58 AM
You can watch it as long as you watch it in your room.

I am :tongue:

Perianne
06-13-2014, 07:58 AM
I am :tongue:

You are funny.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 08:00 AM
You are funny.

Blame my dad and my adopted uncle. They were both ornery, especially the uncle. I get my sense of humor from them :tongue:

Perianne
06-13-2014, 08:01 AM
Blame my dad and my adopted uncle. They were both ornery, especially the uncle. I get my sense of humor from them :tongue:

Uncle Arrow?

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 08:02 AM
Uncle Arrow?

He's a sarcastic son of a bitch and I love him for it :tongue:

Bob
06-13-2014, 08:03 AM
My parents are dyed in the wool conservative Republicans with Reagan's picture on the wall. I went to schools in Mississippi. I assure you my indoctrination was pro-Reagan instead of anti-Reagan.

I thought just like you did until I did my own reading. Facts don't lie. It is a fact that economies don't turn over night. It is a fact that Iran Contra was illegal. It is a fact that Carter negotiated the hostage return. It is a fact that Reagan supported Carter's policies and wrote an editorial about it as governor. It is a fact that he kept Carter's FR chair and his policies for the first few years.

I didn't say he was a piece of shit. I'm saying we all have things we live through that we were excited about and see as being awesome but weren't. He-Man cartoons, for example. When I watch them now I realize how fucking gay they were. You couldn't have convinced me at the time they were stupid. Obamabots will never think he was an asshole.

It's just how shit is.


I agree with you much more than what Green Arrow says.

If you want the whole truth on Iran Contra, given democrat lied about it so much, you need the book by the husband wife team, Strober. The did the best job on Reagan and the myths spread by democrats. You guys appear to not take serious I was a very strong supporter of Democrats till Reagan. I voted for both men.

Carter was not all bad. Carter did deregulate. I give him credit for that.

It sucks that Iran is said to tie to the Contras.

The Contras were the good guys. They opposed communists. The Sandinistas claimed they would be good for Nicaragua but they were just soviet shills.

Connecting the two is wrong. The cash for the missiles was the cash paid to private sources. It was private money that went to the Contras. The US Government did not lose a dime on those TOW weapons until Reagan got involved and agreed to sene Iran Tows. Tows are not large weapons. I mean, who gives a shit if Iran could kill Iraqi tanks?

Reagan signed a finding. This is never talked about his detractors. A finding means Reagan had the right to do what he did. Strober lays it all out in their book.

If Iran Contra was not legal, somebody, even Reagan would have stood trial. None stood trial over that. I don't think given the media of that time that they would have allowed it to not go to trial.

Carter gets full credit for freeing the hostages. Reagan never tried to take credit for it. I don't give Reagan credit for the hostage freedoms. I agree with you.

Reagan did not support all that many of Carter policies though he did in some cases.

As to the chair of the FR, why not keep him? He was a very good FR chair. Reagan allied with him.

What is different for me is I lived with Reagan as both Governor and President which means it lasted 16 years. I went from a Reagan hater to a man that really appreciates what Reagan did.

I thank him for what he proved to America. We were a piss poor country during Carter. I hoped and hoped he would turn it around. I felt like shit as an American until Reagan took over.

Codename Section
06-13-2014, 08:03 AM
Have you wondered that it’s not because of your age, but your views? I’ve met many 22 year olds who are switched on and many whose views border on the childish. It might not be the age, but rather some odd views that people find puzzling? If I held some of the views on the forum, then yes, I probably would be considered senile, so it’s not really just age, it’s views and a way of debating that count. If you don’t have a strong position then you’re going to get a lot of expected flak.

Kilgram is an example; having a debate there is like an out of the body experience, but to his credit, he holds strong views which he defends. It’s having views which you can defend, rather than age.


No offense, but that's a cop out for bad behavior. There is no excuse to use age, race, or sex in an argument. If his opinions are screwy they are easy enough to debate and mock, but to drag in how old someone is just reeks of assholery.

There is no need to bring age into it. Ron Paul was a physician and a Congressman and I believe 100% the exact same things he believes in and he's older than dirt. So to tell me, a war veteran, that I'm "young" and will change when I'm Bob's age is kinda crap since Ron is older than Bob.

Kilgram and GA don't need to be debated. People can avoid their posts if they think they're wonky. Simple as that.

Bob
06-13-2014, 08:09 AM
@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013) @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868)

Go to your rooms. This is why we can't have nice stuff. :)
Perianne

If you understood Eugene V Debs, that Green Arrow lauds by his signature, you may understand a lot.

I felt for months and months that to GA I was some senile old man the way GA talks to me.

Then he started acting bad. He told me my posts are childish. Coming from a 22 year old, that baked the cake. I thought, who the hell does he think he is? It is poor form to call a 75 year old a child.

I do my best to not be disrespectful. When a poster shows me his fangs and sneers at me, how can i be blamed for getting testy with him?

Study Eugene V Debs who GA uses like his flag. Find out about the communist.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 08:11 AM
This thread has inspired me to make a "Worst U.S. Presidents" thread. I think it would be enlightening.

Perianne
06-13-2014, 08:12 AM
@Perianne (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=762)

If you understood Eugene V Debs, that @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) lauds by his signature, you may understand a lot.

I felt for months and months that to GA I was some senile old man the way GA talks to me.

Then he started acting bad. He told me my posts are childish. Coming from a 22 year old, that baked the cake. I thought, who the hell does he think he is? It is poor form to call a 75 year old a child.

I do my best to not be disrespectful. When a poster shows me his fangs and sneers at me, how can i be blamed for getting testy with him?

Study Eugene V Debs who GA uses like his flag. Find out about the communist.

Bob, I was joking. I like both of you guys and have never had any problems with either of you. I first started with Green Arrow over a year ago in a land far, far away.

Bob
06-13-2014, 08:14 AM
No offense, but that's a cop out for bad behavior. There is no excuse to use age, race, or sex in an argument. If his opinions are screwy they are easy enough to debate and mock, but to drag in how old someone is just reeks of assholery.

There is no need to bring age into it. Ron Paul was a physician and a Congressman and I believe 100% the exact same things he believes in and he's older than dirt. So to tell me, a war veteran, that I'm "young" and will change when I'm Bob's age is kinda crap since Ron is older than Bob.

Kilgram and GA don't need to be debated. People can avoid their posts if they think they're wonky. Simple as that.

You mean to tell me that I don't know more than what you read in a book?

I have plenty of books on these topics.

And you think age does not matter?

Let me tell you how it does matter.

Al is a pal of mine. Al is in his mid 90s. Al explains to me things I did not live. He lived them. He developed feelings and knowledge about things. When he tells me my age is against me on various things, I don't rip him, I respect him.

I respect age. Maturity takes years to obtain.

Bob
06-13-2014, 08:17 AM
Bob, I was joking. I like both of you guys and have never had any problems with either of you. I first started with Green Arrow over a year ago in a land far, far away.

I regret he let his feelings get the best of him. I had a hard time being told i was childish when he pulled that out of his bag of tricks months back. I felt as if he respected his rather new knowledge obtained to his point but he felt I am full of shit.

HE does not recall a living Truman or a living FDR. I do. That means I have actual hands on experience.

I have said many times I once supported Democrats. I was a fool. I don't plan to repeat that mistake.

Refugee
06-13-2014, 08:19 AM
I very vaguely remember things like the Bay of Pigs in Cuba, the Cuban missile crisis and JFK’s assassination, but especially remember white-faced parents listening to the radio during the missile crisis and talking in quiet voices and wondering what all the fuss was about. Later in life I listen to people like Bob and it all comes back to me. I’ve watched Zero Dark Thirty, the movie, but I’m more interested in the experiences of people on the forum who served in Afghanistan. Quotes from books don’t do it for me either, as I’ve probably ready many more of the same in my time.

Explanations do it for me; individual thoughts and/or memories, even if distorted over time, I’m capable of picking out the bits of interest and deconstructing the anomalies within them for myself. The new age drivel of, “Hey listen people, I’ve just solved the world’s problems all on my own”, leaves me yawning. At best politics is about the history of what has happened and trying to relate it to what will come; one is subjective and the other predictive. A future prediction of the world holding hands, or space men re-invading us to teach us, or capitalism being abolished and replaced by something that hasn’t yet been discovered isn’t politics, it’s science fiction. That's how I see it all. :smiley:

Perianne
06-13-2014, 08:25 AM
HE does not recall a living Truman or a living FDR. I do. That means I have actual hands on experience.


Bob, I do agree with you on this. While I am not your age, I was an adult (barely) when Carter was President. And while history books may praise Billy's brother, I was there and saw the state of the country. I remember thinking at the time that if American continued on the path it was on we would wind up communist (as communism was the great fear then). And while "morning in America" may have been just another trick politicians play on us, it worked. His reelection resulted in 49 - that is 49! - states voting for him.

Maybe another four years of Carter would have been great. We will never know. But what we DO know is that it turned around under Reagan. Yes, I am one of those who lived it and I thank God for sending him to us.

I heard an old joke one time:

Q. > Was God on Reagans' side?

A. > Trick question. Reagan was God.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 08:25 AM
I very vaguely remember things like the Bay of Pigs in Cuba, the Cuban missile crisis and JFK’s assassination, but especially remember white-faced parents listening to the radio during the missile crisis and talking in quiet voices and wondering what all the fuss was about. Later in life I listen to people like Bob and it all comes back to me. I’ve watched Zero Dark Thirty, the movie, but I’m more interested in the experiences of people on the forum who served in Afghanistan. Quotes from books don’t do it for me either, as I’ve probably ready many more of the same in my time.

Explanations do it for me; individual thoughts and/or memories, even if distorted over time, I’m capable of picking out the bits of interest and deconstructing the anomalies within them for myself. The new age drivel of, “Hey listen people, I’ve just solved the world’s problems all on my own”, leaves me yawning. At best politics is about the history of what has happened and trying to relate it to what will come; one is subjective and the other predictive. A future prediction of the world holding hands, or space men re-invading us to teach us, or capitalism being abolished and replaced by something that hasn’t yet been discovered isn’t politics, it’s science fiction. That's how I see it all. :smiley:


Two of my favorite people in the world were my great uncle and my spiritual grandfather. Gruncle was my grandmother's oldest brother, and served in both WWII and Korea. He lied about his age so he could fight in WWII and was a paratrooper in Korea. I grew up listening to his war stories. He was the person that made me love history. He died last year of smoke inhalation after his house caught fire.

My spiritual grandfather died back in 2009. He served with Patton and was interviewed for a documentary about Patton on the Military History channel. He later became a pastor and served in that capacity until he died.

Codename Section
06-13-2014, 08:27 AM
That's how people feel about Clinton's alleged economic miracle.

I'm more of a guy that places faith in markets to correct.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 08:31 AM
That's how people feel about Clinton's alleged economic miracle.

I'm more of a guy that places faith in markets to correct.

I don't put a lot of credit on presidents anyway. If you think about it, they don't actually make any policy. All they do is pass or veto any policy that comes to their desk. So, really, it's Congress that makes or breaks the country, which is why all you have to do to castrate a President is give them a hostile Congress.

Of course, these days, thanks to Bush Jr. and Obama, the President is becoming increasingly more powerful and destructive.

Libhater
06-13-2014, 08:36 AM
I have said many times I once supported Democrats. I was a fool. I don't plan to repeat that mistake.

I don't see that you once being a democrat makes you a fool, since our beloved Ronald Reagan was once a staunch liberal himself until he saw the light of all of the communist infiltration during his youthful years in politics. I believe it was long before a Joe McCarty and a Whittaker Chambers exposed the commies in our government that Reagan changed his political affiliation.

But I digress: Your mention of the Green Arrow's age as being a factor in analyzing the carter/Reagan terms is quite appropriate seeing how the GA comes from a mindset that is steeped in socialism, i.e. as displayed by his picture of and for an obvious admiration for the socialist Eugene Debs. I know you are reluctant to bring Eugene Debs into the fore here, but I am not as reticent to do so. You know, they say the people you hang out with or the people you idolize tells one an awful lot about you as a person.
Having said that, let me give you a link explaining a bit of the biography of the Green Arrow's idol Eugene Debs so that others can get an idea of where the G.A.s allegiance lies.

Right after Congress passed the Sedition and Espionage Acts Eugene Debs was charged for making an anti war speech and was given a 10 year sentence. While in prison he had a poster made for his presidential run that read....For President Convict No. 9653. Debs was the Socialist Party Candidate. Hope this helps.

http://www.kansasheritage.org/pullman/debs.html

kilgram
06-13-2014, 08:36 AM
What Green Arrow and left wingers refuse to admit is that Clinton bombed the hell out of Iraq. Why would a president do that to a nation that was innocent?

The entire mood of congress was to stop Saddam. War was one way.

Bush offered Saddam a way out of war. Saddam refused.
Yes, he was guilty of wanting independence from USA and wanting to operate in other currency than American dollars. They were guilty of that.

Refugee
06-13-2014, 08:38 AM
Bob, I do agree with you on this. While I am not your age, I was an adult (barely) when Carter was President. And while history books may praise Billy's brother, I was there and saw the state of the country. I remember thinking at the time that if American continued on the path it was on we would wind up communist (as communism was the great fear then). And while "morning in America" may have been just another trick politicians play on us, it worked. His reelection resulted in 49 - that is 49! - states voting for him.

Maybe another four years of Carter would have been great. We will never know. But what we DO know is that it turned around under Reagan. Yes, I am one of those who lived it and I thank God for sending him to us.

I heard an old joke one time:

Q. > Was God on Reagans' side?

A. > Trick question. Reagan was God.

At the same time in the UK, Thatcher put an end to a Communist take over that was just about happening, not going to happen. Papers released under our 30 year secrecy rule say that the Army was actually planning a coup in the late 70's. We had the red flags out, people were calling each other 'comrade' and the whole country was economically a basket case. Reagan and Thatcher didn't stop it, they simply slowed it down and it's now back with a vengeance but in a different form.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 08:44 AM
I don't see that you once being a democrat makes you a fool, since our beloved Ronald Reagan was once a staunch liberal himself until he saw the light of all of the communist infiltration during his youthful years in politics. I believe it was long before a Joe McCarty and a Whittaker Chambers exposed the commies in our government that Reagan changed his political affiliation.

But I digress: Your mention of the Green Arrow's age as being a factor in analyzing the carter/Reagan terms is quite appropriate seeing how the GA comes from a mindset that is steeped in socialism, i.e. as displayed by his picture of and for an obvious admiration for the socialist Eugene Debs. I know you are reluctant to bring Eugene Debs into the fore here, but I am not as reticent to do so. You know, they say the people you hang out with or the people you idolize tells one an awful lot about you as a person.
Having said that, let me give you a link explaining a bit of the biography of the Green Arrow's idol Eugene Debs so that others can get an idea of where the G.A.s allegiance lies.

Right after Congress passed the Sedition and Espionage Acts Eugene Debs was charged for making an anti war speech and was given a 10 year sentence. While in prison he had a poster made for his presidential run that read....For President Convict No. 9653. Debs was the Socialist Party Candidate. Hope this helps.

http://www.kansasheritage.org/pullman/debs.html

He was imprisoned for exercising his right to free speech by a corrupt and tyrannical President, and still refused to compromise his beliefs.

Here I thought you were going to try to make people think Debs was a bad guy.

Bob
06-13-2014, 08:54 AM
No offense, but that's a cop out for bad behavior. There is no excuse to use age, race, or sex in an argument. If his opinions are screwy they are easy enough to debate and mock, but to drag in how old someone is just reeks of assholery.

There is no need to bring age into it. Ron Paul was a physician and a Congressman and I believe 100% the exact same things he believes in and he's older than dirt. So to tell me, a war veteran, that I'm "young" and will change when I'm Bob's age is kinda crap since Ron is older than Bob.

Kilgram and GA don't need to be debated. People can avoid their posts if they think they're wonky. Simple as that.

Everybody has an opinion. And I do not TELL you what you MUST use as YOUR parameters. Age is important when discussing history when some of us lived the history, the rest used literature to learn it.

If you have a birthday party for a child, you experienced it.

If I am childless and never saw a birthday party, I did not have that history.

JFK is more than a book to me. He is more than a discussion. He was My CIC as a 25 year old . Some of you had a CIC of recent times. Take where you served for instance in Iraq

Even though you are younger than I am, I defer to you on the topic of Iraq as it pertains to troops in combat. I read about it, you lived it. I value your lessons over books I read.

I happen to have read over 8 books on Iraq and Afghanistan. But you were living it.

I can't put my books against your live experience. I have to respect your age in that case.

I believe Rand and Ron Paul are awesome.

Rand should be a Governor first. I would not want some PFC managing a Company of men or a regiment. I would shudder to put a PFC in charge of an Army Division. I bet in your unit, you would loathe an E-1 telling you what to do. If you were a SGT, you had more on the ball than the E-1 or E-2.

I was a Spec 4 that clerked for the Captain. I would not be so bold to say I knew as much as the Captain knew. He had served as a company clerk in Korea so he knew my job and his job. He had special training to be a Captain. I respected him very much. I did not resent his experience over my then experience.
Peter1469 has served as an EM plus a Lt. Col. I would be pretty stupid to tell him what happens when he lives it. I respect him even though he is younger. I respect you @Codename Service. Try respecting me. Green Arrow sneered at me from early on.

Obama had no credentials. I would respect Rand much more once he gets some rank under his belt. If his state can elect him governor, he has a chance to run the entire ship of state from DC.

My claim is we don't need Rand this moment. We will lose if we refuse to put up for 2016 a fully vetted Governor.

I am speaking for myself. When I voted for JFK, i was motivated to make sure only Democrats won. I was a super fan of Democrats. It was a mistake I made growing up. My parents taught Democrats 101. We were schooled in how evil republicans are.

It took some head knocking for me to convert to the republicans. When some of you so called new republicans trash Reagan, It is difficult to read. It is just not respect to the man that did so much for America. He did not take office to get rich. The man was humble. He became adored by even a lot of Democrats. Obama will never see that happen.

And one more thing. I spent a year being 22. I had not yet been drafted. I know very well i was strong minded. I still am. But I developed over a long time. It took time for me to sort all of this out. You guys are on a path I traveled. Back when I was your age, one thing is different,

I greatly respected age. I mean age that has grown whiskers not fuzz.

Don't resent me. You will become 75 if you have good health and you too will find some young dude trying to explain Obama to you when you lived the man. You lived and discussed as he presided. To have some young dude tell you he was a hero will piss you off. But you face it. I faced it too. I am finally 75. Pray you make it too.

Perianne
06-13-2014, 09:01 AM
Don't resent me. You will become 75 if you have good health and you too will find some young dude trying to explain Obama to you when you lived the man. You lived and discussed as he presided. To have some young dude tell you he was a hero will piss you off. But you face it. I faced it too. I am finally 75. Pray you make it too.

That was well-stated, Bob.

Bob
06-13-2014, 09:28 AM
I got married to my first wife in the seventies when we had to wait in endless gas lines just to fill up our tanks. Sometimes the wait was 3 to 4 hours. Wasn't the economic misery index created as a result of carter's failure as president? Reagan freed those 400+ hostages held over from the carter daze on his first day in office.

The lines started when Nixon was president. We can't blame Carter for what OPEC did. We in CA were allowed to get fuel on even or odd days. The license number dictated. And the lines could be hell. I made a deal with a local station to park my car and he would fill it when he could. That solved my entire problem.

We suffered more under Carter than Nixon and as GA says, some of what we felt during Carter started with Nixon. I agree with Green Arrow on that.

Reagan per the democrat myth freed the hostages but Reagan himself put full credit on Carter. Reagan kept Carter on AF-1 to pick up the hostages believing it proved Carter got them out. Per Democrats, Reagan went behind Carter to get out the hostages. This is a myth. Reagan never would tamper when freedom was at stake.

Give Carter full credit for freeing the hostages. It took too long but he got all freed with none killed.

Bob
06-13-2014, 09:33 AM
http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=649353#post649353)
Don't resent me. You will become 75 if you have good health and you too will find some young dude trying to explain Obama to you when you lived the man. You lived and discussed as he presided. To have some young dude tell you he was a hero will piss you off. But you face it. I faced it too. I am finally 75. Pray you make it too.



That was well-stated, Bob.

The entire piece was well stated. Thanks for your support.

He will learn the same thing we all learn as we age. I maybe 75 but I am not the typical 75. I am super active and thrive on new friends and education.

The young people will face in later life what we now face. We face them blowing us off. We must have blowed off a few older people when we were young. Truth is, I always respected those with older age and those with more experience. I don't take kindly being smeared when I have so much actual experience to offer.

It reminds me of my flying airplanes. I know what I am qualified to fly. I would not tell some 747 pilot how to fly. It would insult the person. I got my stripes the hard way. I spent years getting my Sgt stripes so to speak.

Bob
06-13-2014, 09:35 AM
He was imprisoned for exercising his right to free speech by a corrupt and tyrannical President, and still refused to compromise his beliefs.

Here I thought you were going to try to make people think Debs was a bad guy.

Debs never supported our government. He wanted it destroyed to put in communism. And you expected us to laud the dude???????????????????

I put tons of ???????? marks so you could tell it is a question.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 09:38 AM
Bob, please respect the fact that I don't wish to respond to you further and stop mentioning me in every other post. Thanks in advance.

Bob
06-13-2014, 09:48 AM
I don't see that you once being a democrat makes you a fool, since our beloved Ronald Reagan was once a staunch liberal himself until he saw the light of all of the communist infiltration during his youthful years in politics. I believe it was long before a Joe McCarty and a Whittaker Chambers exposed the commies in our government that Reagan changed his political affiliation.

But I digress: Your mention of the Green Arrow's age as being a factor in analyzing the carter/Reagan terms is quite appropriate seeing how the GA comes from a mindset that is steeped in socialism, i.e. as displayed by his picture of and for an obvious admiration for the socialist Eugene Debs. I know you are reluctant to bring Eugene Debs into the fore here, but I am not as reticent to do so. You know, they say the people you hang out with or the people you idolize tells one an awful lot about you as a person.
Having said that, let me give you a link explaining a bit of the biography of the Green Arrow's idol Eugene Debs so that others can get an idea of where the G.A.s allegiance lies.

Right after Congress passed the Sedition and Espionage Acts Eugene Debs was charged for making an anti war speech and was given a 10 year sentence. While in prison he had a poster made for his presidential run that read....For President Convict No. 9653. Debs was the Socialist Party Candidate. Hope this helps.

http://www.kansasheritage.org/pullman/debs.html

He would be well advised to stop speaking well of Debs.

I see Debs as the man that wanted for the USA what Russia got by revolution.

Full blown communism in the USA the Debs way? No thanks.

When I first voted for Ronald Reagan, I was brand new as a Republican. I may have thought he was always a republican since when he ran for Governor of my state, I refused to vote for him. He was great for Californis and much better for the USA.

I need to see Carter get more credit for deregulation and the hostage released. This becmae an issue because the left blamed Reagan for back door tricks to get the hostages out. Reagan played no role in them being released. They played dirty tricks to explain why Carter lost. I refused to support Carter the last time because of his lack of leadership. I was pissed he banned our athletes from the Olympics. Hell, I voted for him his first time and trusted him. I felt like shit when the country became a huge mess. We lost half the nations real estate people when he was president. I survived his presidency but it was super hard. Reagan fixed things.

Bob
06-13-2014, 09:49 AM
Bob, please respect the fact that I don't wish to respond to you further and stop mentioning me in every other post. Thanks in advance.
Green Arrow, is that a rule?

Because if not, the Mention does not force you to reply, but you have a right to be informed.

You insulted me early. I wish you had ignored me over insulting me a long time back. Thanks for your interest.

Bob
06-13-2014, 09:51 AM
At the same time in the UK, Thatcher put an end to a Communist take over that was just about happening, not going to happen. Papers released under our 30 year secrecy rule say that the Army was actually planning a coup in the late 70's. We had the red flags out, people were calling each other 'comrade' and the whole country was economically a basket case. Reagan and Thatcher didn't stop it, they simply slowed it down and it's now back with a vengeance but in a different form.

Thatcher was awesome. Her and Reagan made quite a pair on the world stage. I also appreciate her a lot.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 09:54 AM
@Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868), is that a rule?

Because if not, the Mention does not force you to reply, but you have a right to be informed.

You insulted me early. I wish you had ignored me over insulting me a long time back. Thanks for your interest.

I politely requested that you stop, Bob. It's not a rule, no, you can mention me as much as you want to, but I've asked you in good faith to stop.

Spectre
06-13-2014, 09:56 AM
I, too, am floored by GA's admiration of socialist/marxist icon Eugene Debs.

Do the other anarcho-libertarians share this enthusiasm?

Because if they do, it further supports my theory of the convergence of anarcho-libertarians and the far progressive left to form a new branch of progressivism.

Bob
06-13-2014, 09:59 AM
http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=649146#post649146)
What Green Arrow and left wingers refuse to admit is that Clinton bombed the hell out of Iraq. Why would a president do that to a nation that was innocent?

The entire mood of congress was to stop Saddam. War was one way.

Bush offered Saddam a way out of war. Saddam refused.


Yes, he was guilty of wanting independence from USA and wanting to operate in other currency than American dollars. They were guilty of that.

That is an interesting way to defend Saddam Hussein.

Bush mainly wanted to free the public of Iraq. The WMD issue was actually not the major factor. It made good talking points but look what Bush named the invasion. That gives away the secret of Bush why he invaded Iraq. (Operation Iraqi Freedom)

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 10:02 AM
I, too, am floored by GA's admiration of socialist/marxist icon Eugene Debs.

Do the other anarcho-libertarians share this enthusiasm?

Because if they do, it further supports my theory of the convergence of anarcho-libertarians and the far progressive left to form a new branch of progressivism.

Anarchists have been socialists since the late 1800s. They were socialists in the 1600s, if you count Gerrard Winstanley.

Not all anarchists were socialists/communists, mind you, but many were.

Mainecoons
06-13-2014, 10:02 AM
That's called "newspeak" Bob. It has become a staple of the governing elite.

Here's another example of it: "The Affordable Care Act."

Bob
06-13-2014, 10:02 AM
I, too, am floored by GA's admiration of socialist/marxist icon Eugene Debs.

Do the other anarcho-libertarians share this enthusiasm?

Because if they do, it further supports my theory of the convergence of anarcho-libertarians and the far progressive left to form a new branch of progressivism.

It reminds me of somebody saying they vote for republicans but having paid homage to Marx or Engels.

Maybe homage to Stalin.

Debs hits me right off because Mom told me Grandpa supported communists in the 30s. They had hard days in the 30s. Debs to me is like seeing Stalin take over the USA. Good god. Creepy eh? And Uncle Eugene had that name to honor Debs too.

Perianne
06-13-2014, 10:03 AM
Anarchists have been socialists since the late 1800s. They were socialists in the 1600s, if you count Gerrard Winstanley.

Not all anarchists were socialists/communists, mind you, but many were.

Isn't that another poster on here? Or TPF? Geez, the things I am learning.

Mainecoons
06-13-2014, 10:04 AM
Try considering Debs in the context of his times.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 10:04 AM
I've had this signature and avatar for a month and have been proudly proclaiming my socialist beliefs since I became a member here last October. Y'all aren't very observant, are you?

Captain Obvious
06-13-2014, 10:04 AM
Isn't that another poster on here? Or TPF? Geez, the things I am learning.

Yeah, he shows up every now and then.

That you and Mr. Perrianne in your avatar?

Why the blurred pic, protecting the innocent?

:biglaugh:

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 10:05 AM
Isn't that another poster on here? Or TPF? Geez, the things I am learning.

The poster's name comes as homage to the historical figure.

Bob
06-13-2014, 10:05 AM
Anarchists have been socialists since the late 1800s. They were socialists in the 1600s, if you count Gerrard Winstanley.

Not all anarchists were socialists/communists, mind you, but many were.

China had socialism thousands of years before Jesus was born.

So my question is so what?

Debs would be akin to admiring Joseph Stalin.

Perianne
06-13-2014, 10:05 AM
Yeah, he shows up every now and then.

That you and Mr. Perrianne in your avatar?

Why the blurred pic, protecting the innocent?

I blurred it out of respect for him. He is dead. That was our last picture together.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 10:07 AM
I blurred it out of respect for him. He is dead. That was our last picture together.

I am sorry for your loss, Miss Peri.

Bob
06-13-2014, 10:08 AM
I've had this signature and avatar for a month and have been proudly proclaiming my socialist beliefs since I became a member here last October. Y'all aren't very observant, are you?

I don't know why you started insulting me not all that long after I showed up, but you being a full blood socialist explains your delight over Debs.

Well, now you let the cat out of the bag.

Captain Obvious
06-13-2014, 10:09 AM
I blurred it out of respect for him. He is dead. That was our last picture together.

Oh, sorry. I didn't realize.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 10:11 AM
I don't know why you started insulting me not all that long after I showed up, but you being a full blood socialist explains your delight over Debs.

Well, now you let the cat out of the bag.

The cat was never in the bag, O Wise One :rollseyes:

Bob
06-13-2014, 10:11 AM
I blurred it out of respect for him. He is dead. That was our last picture together.

I join all who support you in the loss of your husband. So sorry. I lost both parents and 2 brothers. It is terrible to the survivors.

Perianne
06-13-2014, 10:11 AM
Oh, sorry. I didn't realize.

You're fine, Captain. You didn't know. He was just a few days short of 49 and died of sepsis related to pancreatitis.

Captain Obvious
06-13-2014, 10:14 AM
You're fine, Captain. You didn't know. He was just a few days short of 49 and died of sepsis related to pancreatitis.

That's way too young. My mom died at 54.

My wife just turned 48.

yeesh...

Bob
06-13-2014, 10:14 AM
Socialism is not anarchy. Socialism is a form of government where Anarchy is no government.

Anarchy is how we mostly live unless interfered with by crooks and the government.

The aim of the socialist is to then move into communism.

Both forms involve humans losing freedom.

Bob
06-13-2014, 10:21 AM
You're fine, Captain. You didn't know. He was just a few days short of 49 and died of sepsis related to pancreatitis.

I was days short of death two times. In 1995 a stone that was the size of an egg (per my surgeon) blew into my duodenum and into my bowels and shut me down. I was very ill. Where it was, it was killing me so my doctor told me. The operation solved the problem and since then, no more problems like that.

2011 per my cardiologist, a major block in my heart could have killed me instantly. My surgeon saved my life along with the doctors as well as a wonderful lady in my office that tipped me off I had heart problems. I did not see problems with the heart. I saw it on the X rays. I was close to dying. The funny part is I felt okay. My younger brother dropped dead from something like that too.

Again, the focus is on you but I entirely sympathize with you.

Perianne
06-13-2014, 10:23 AM
I was days short of death two times. In 1995 a stone that was the size of an egg (per my surgeon) blew into my duodenum and into my bowels and shut me down. I was very ill. Where it was, it was killing me so my doctor told me. The operation solved the problem and since then, no more problems like that.

2011 per my cardiologist, a major block in my heart could have killed me instantly. My surgeon saved my life along with the doctors as well as a wonderful lady in my office that tipped me off I had heart problems. I did not see problems with the heart. I saw it on the X rays. I was close to dying. The funny part is I felt okay. My younger brother dropped dead from something like that too.

Again, the focus is on you but I entirely sympathize with you.

No, no focus on me. I am happy you survived your battles with death.

Bob
06-13-2014, 11:07 AM
No, no focus on me. I am happy you survived your battles with death.

My last problem was Feb 2011 and is fully fixed.

I tell you, when both surgery's saved my life, I was both thankful and sorry I was in that condition. Surgery is not fun. And it's very expensive.

Imagine, your butcher earns a few thousand dollars a year for cutting meat. The surgeons make that money in a matter of minutes. LOL

Spectre
06-13-2014, 11:09 AM
I've had this signature and avatar for a month and have been proudly proclaiming my socialist beliefs since I became a member here last October. Y'all aren't very observant, are you?

I was wondering about that, it did have me scratching my head.

I always thought you were one of those Rothbardian anarcho-capitalists like Chris, Ethereal, Codename, etc.

But you're more of a Kilgram and Guerilla, I now see.

Well THAT clears things up.

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 11:13 AM
I was wondering about that, it did have me scratching my head.

I always thought you were one of those Rothbardian anarcho-capitalists like Chris, Ethereal, Codename, etc.

But you're more of a Kilgram and Guerilla, I now see.

Well THAT clears things up.

Sorry for the confusion. I thought it was clear that the three of us and the ancaps only had antistatism in common.

Bob
06-13-2014, 11:24 AM
I spent 2 years on active duty to get rid of socialists.

I have spent too much time fighting socialism to suddenly think of it in a friendly way.

This delusion has to be stopped.

Freedom is at stake.

Anarchy is not socialism.

Who recalls Stalin when he still lived as I do?

That thug was a national terrorist in my opinion.

Anarchy is presented by some as violent.

This is not true.

When you are at work, you live in anarchy.

So long as you self govern yourself, you live in anarchy.

You do not cause harm to other workers because of Government, you know it is terrible to abuse others so you refuse to abuse them.

There are forms of violence. Anarchy is not any form of violence.

If you wish to discuss violence it is not contained in Anarchy.

del
06-13-2014, 11:27 AM
China had socialism thousands of years before Jesus was born.

So my question is so what?

Debs would be akin to admiring Joseph Stalin.

especially if you're simpleminded, because we know debs murdered millions of his countrymen

Green Arrow
06-13-2014, 11:28 AM
especially if you're simpleminded, because we know debs murdered millions of his countrymen

I spit my morning tea at his desperate attempts to link Debs and Stalin. What absurdity.

del
06-13-2014, 11:28 AM
My last problem was Feb 2011 and is fully fixed.

I tell you, when both surgery's saved my life, I was both thankful and sorry I was in that condition. Surgery is not fun. And it's very expensive.

Imagine, your butcher earns a few thousand dollars a year for cutting meat. The surgeons make that money in a matter of minutes. LOL

of course the meat is dead

del
06-13-2014, 11:29 AM
I spit my morning tea at his desperate attempts to link Debs and Stalin. What absurdity.

he always puts a smile on my face

The Sage of Main Street
06-13-2014, 11:50 AM
Except he did neither of those things. It was the people of the Soviet satellites and Russia's own gaffes that destroyed the USSR, not Reagan's speech-making, and most of the economic boom we got with Reagan was the result of policies put into place by Carter. With his well-performed act of militarism, Reagan scared OPEC into lowering oil prices, the only reason his economy boomed. He also encouraged Saddam to violate OPEC quotas and overproduce, which also lowered oil prices. Notice that Clinton, with completely different domestic economics, also managed to get gasoline down to a dollar a gallon and create his own economic boom. But go ahead, continue to be a sucker and believe in the pseudo-science of authorized economics.

The Sage of Main Street
06-13-2014, 11:58 AM
Precisely, that's the logic behind his assassination.
LBJ let it be known he disagreed with how JFK and RFK were handling things. LBJ indicated he would be easier to work with and wouldn't rile Russia. Our own government killed JFK. The Cuban Missile Crisis scared the crap out of many in the upper echelon of our government. They weren't about to let it happen again. Old papa Joe Kennedy taught his sons to fight with one another to teach them masculine behavior, from sports to women. He taught them to be highly competitive at everything, never lose, win at any cost, legally or illegally, honestly or dishonestly. Any means to the end was his motto. JFK/RFK were highly competitive, very thin skinned, and extremely vindictive. Both of them never forgave a slight. They brooded until revenge could be taken. LBJ didn't kill JFK, but he indirectly or some say directly permitted it to happen. He knew by the end of 11/22/63 he would be president.

These are not my words, this is a brief synopsis from Jackie O's memoirs. The deal was made because it was the only way to solve the Cuban Missile Crisis. No way that the Soviets would back down and lose face without demanding the removal of the trigger-happy Camelot jockeys.

1. They get the missiles out of Cuba.
2. We get our equally threatening missiles in Turkey.
3. They depose Khrushchev.
4. We assassinate Kennedy.

The Sage of Main Street
06-13-2014, 12:06 PM
So, Bush and his Republican majority had no power to repeal the law? GOPer Bootlickers also believe their oppressed heroes had no power to repeal the Community Reinvestment Act, which mandated sub-prime mortgages. The reason the Ringleader Brothers Barnum & Bailout Circus's party didn't repeal it was because these were flipper loans designed to remove whole rathole neighborhoods and replace them with lucrative upscale-housing for Yuppy Greedheads.

The Sage of Main Street
06-13-2014, 12:15 PM
"It smells like...victory." In Vietnam, we were surrounded and outnumbered at all times. The VC would have swarmed all over us if it hadn't been for napalm and other wipe-out weapons.

The Sage of Main Street
06-13-2014, 12:17 PM
Bush wasn't in the Air Force. He was in the Texas Air National Guard.
He guarded Texas air very well. Unfortunately, that's why Perry and Cruz are still breathing.

The Sage of Main Street
06-13-2014, 12:28 PM
Yes, he was guilty of wanting independence from USA and wanting to operate in other currency than American dollars. They were guilty of that. Saddam was "guilty" of producing beyond his OPEC and sanctions quotas, which drove world prices down and interfered with the absurd thousand-percent plus profit margins of the American oil companies.

Which suddenly makes me ask, "Why didn't the Dutch military help our petrocrats in the price-gougers' wars?" Royal Dutch Shell is one of the biggest collaborators with jihadist OPEC.

texan
06-13-2014, 04:44 PM
Have you been to the Library of Congress? The Jefferson collection is pretty cool. I was there with the ex, and I said- hey look, a Lord of the Rings trilogy! :smiley:

I loved the series on HBO John Adams.

Of course he and Jefferson were close and I think died on the same day maybe even on the 4th of July. There was a scene when Jefferson is tasked with the writing of the Decl of Ind. He comes back after several days to discuss the draft it with Adams and Franklin. They read it and its says "all men are created equal" and they are stunned. He basically says "I know but its the only way this can work".

I thought that was genius writing. I have no idea if that is true, but it is really profound! The reaction and discussion ensued and it was great. They all considered teh slaves and came to the same conculsion. They knew it would be met with great debate, but right is right and Jeffersons comment was simple but genius. Tough to argue.

Libhater
06-13-2014, 06:41 PM
I loved the series on HBO John Adams.

Of course he and Jefferson were close and I think died on the same day maybe even on the 4th of July. There was a scene when Jefferson is tasked with the writing of the Decl of Ind. He comes back after several days to discuss the draft it with Adams and Franklin. They read it and its says "all men are created equal" and they are stunned. He basically says "I know but its the only way this can work".

I thought that was genius writing. I have no idea if that is true, but it is really profound! The reaction and discussion ensued and it was great. They all considered teh slaves and came to the same conculsion. They knew it would be met with great debate, but right is right and Jeffersons comment was simple but genius. Tough to argue.

My ancestral tree includes John Adams, and as such I rate him perhaps our 5th or 6th best president with Washington coming in at #1 and Reagan and Lincoln tied for second place.

Green Arrow
06-14-2014, 12:31 AM
I loved the series on HBO John Adams.

Of course he and Jefferson were close and I think died on the same day maybe even on the 4th of July. There was a scene when Jefferson is tasked with the writing of the Decl of Ind. He comes back after several days to discuss the draft it with Adams and Franklin. They read it and its says "all men are created equal" and they are stunned. He basically says "I know but its the only way this can work".

I thought that was genius writing. I have no idea if that is true, but it is really profound! The reaction and discussion ensued and it was great. They all considered teh slaves and came to the same conculsion. They knew it would be met with great debate, but right is right and Jeffersons comment was simple but genius. Tough to argue.

Jefferson was a good man, and a good President. Adams was a corrupt and tyrannical monster.

Libhater
06-14-2014, 06:15 AM
Jefferson was a good man, and a good President. Adams was a corrupt and tyrannical monster.

Wow, such nonsense, but to be expected coming from you.

Green Arrow
06-14-2014, 07:25 AM
Wow, such nonsense, but to be expected coming from you.

Adams laid the groundwork for the unconstitutional expansion of the powers of the Presidency. He jailed people for speaking against his administration, and many members of his opposition were afraid to speak or vote against Adams' Federalists on the floor of Congress for fear that he would have them arrested, too. Never has freedom in our country been more strangled than under Adams.

Libhater
06-14-2014, 08:19 AM
Adams laid the groundwork for the unconstitutional expansion of the powers of the Presidency. He jailed people for speaking against his administration, and many members of his opposition were afraid to speak or vote against Adams' Federalists on the floor of Congress for fear that he would have them arrested, too. Never has freedom in our country been more strangled than under Adams.


Accomplishments of John Adams...the big one was averting war with France.

http://johnadamsinfo.com/john-adams-accomplishments/86/

Green Arrow
06-14-2014, 08:25 AM
Accomplishments of John Adams...the big one was averting war with France.

http://johnadamsinfo.com/john-adams-accomplishments/86/

Don't care. He could be Odin, it doesn't change the fact that he was a tyrant who launched an assault on American freedom.

Libhater
06-14-2014, 08:46 AM
Don't care. He could be Odin, it doesn't change the fact that he was a tyrant who launched an assault on American freedom.

I see it quite the opposite. Adams represented the British soldiers in the Boston Massacre affair that showed us that he was willing and able to give people a fair trial without prejudice, thus the basis on which we Americans define freedom.

Green Arrow
06-14-2014, 09:10 AM
I see it quite the opposite. Adams represented the British soldiers in the Boston Massacre affair that showed us that he was willing and able to give people a fair trial without prejudice, thus the basis on which we Americans define freedom.

And then he passed and enforced the Alien and Sedition Acts, which made it a crime to criticize the President.

Libhater
06-14-2014, 11:55 AM
And then he passed and enforced the Alien and Sedition Acts, which made it a crime to criticize the President.

One has to put the Alien and Sedition Acts into proper context of that era in order to understand and appreciate the reasoning behind such a policy. America was just getting over a war with the British and as of yet not fully secure with our standing of having a newly formed government, so the sedition portion of the policy was meant to restrain possible domestic enemies from writing, printing or using scandalous/malicious writings against our tenuously virgin government.

The alien portion of the act was used to deport foreigners as being a deep threat to American security. Both Lincoln and FDR used interment camps to protect against any possible threat from those deemed to be a threat to our national security, i.e. the japs and the krauts. So the Alien portion of the Act wasn't all that different than what Lincoln and FDR did during their terms as president.

Green Arrow
06-14-2014, 12:29 PM
One has to put the Alien and Sedition Acts into proper context of that era in order to understand and appreciate the reasoning behind such a policy. America was just getting over a war with the British and as of yet not fully secure with our standing of having a newly formed government, so the sedition portion of the policy was meant to restrain possible domestic enemies from writing, printing or using scandalous/malicious writings against our tenuously virgin government.

The alien portion of the act was used to deport foreigners as being a deep threat to American security. Both Lincoln and FDR used interment camps to protect against any possible threat from those deemed to be a threat to our national security, i.e. the japs and the krauts. So the Alien portion of the Act wasn't all that different than what Lincoln and FDR did during their terms as president.

And both Lincoln and FDR are on my worst presidents list right alongside Adams.

Bob
06-14-2014, 12:55 PM
Adams laid the groundwork for the unconstitutional expansion of the powers of the Presidency. He jailed people for speaking against his administration, and many members of his opposition were afraid to speak or vote against Adams' Federalists on the floor of Congress for fear that he would have them arrested, too. Never has freedom in our country been more strangled than under Adams.

What is your source? Green Arrow

Bob
06-14-2014, 12:58 PM
I spit my morning tea at his desperate attempts to link Debs and Stalin. What absurdity.

You are mistreating Adams. Your point?

The link between Debs and Stalin is both wanted Government to hold all resources, including commerce.

Some idiot told you it was over killing so you took his word???? Come on, I thought you mended fences since I have.

Bob
06-14-2014, 01:11 PM
Jefferson was a good man, and a good President. Adams was a corrupt and tyrannical monster.

Holy cow.

Libhater
06-14-2014, 01:17 PM
Holy cow.

Yeah, that's about all one can say about this guy's sick take on our founders, i.e. on Adams.

Green Arrow
06-14-2014, 01:20 PM
What is your source? @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868)

History. The Alien and Sedition Acts to be specific.

PolWatch
06-14-2014, 01:31 PM
just curious, but if Reagan freed millions, what possible reason did he have for leaving the country in free fall...the only ones who benefited seem to have been the Russian version of organized crime. How did Reagan cleverly put Russia into that $$$ Afghan war (the one that finally broke the bank in the USSR)? Reagan was an actor...a profession that requires that you be able to convince the viewers that you ain't who you really are. Not saying he was that good of an actor, but he certainly was able to use those skills on the American voters. I don't think he was one of the all-time worse, but I sure don't think he counts as one of the greats either.