The Worst U.S. Presidents in U.S. History

[Green Arrow]

Following in the same vein of the "Best U.S. Presidents" thread, who do you believe are the worst Presidents in U.S. history? My list, starting from the worst and going down:

LBJ
John Adams
FDR
Woodrow Wilson
Abraham Lincoln

These five men made my list because all of them contributed in a major way to the decline of our nation and the loss of our freedoms.

[Matty]

O b a m a.

[Perianne]

Lincoln
FDR
Obama
Carter

[Codename Section]

Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, LBJ, Ford, Bush, Obama

All progressive, useless assholes.

[Perianne]

Lincoln
FDR
Obama
Carter

I forgot about LBJ. He would be right after Lincoln.

[Perianne]

Lincoln, Wilson, FDR, LBJ, Ford, Bush, Obama

All progressive, useless assholes.

Why Ford?

[Mainecoons]

Obama
Bush
Johnson
FDR
Wilson
Lincoln
Hoover

[Perianne]

Mainecoons, I don't know where you live. If you live in the South think of this (I have said this before... sorry for being repetitive):

If not for Lincoln, we would not have had to suffer all those other losers.

[Mainecoons]

That's why Lincoln is on my list.

[Spectre]

If Lincoln had lived a policy of national reconciliation would have been implemented and the post-war unpleasantness of the radicals and carpet-baggers would have been avoided. Lincoln shouldn't be blamed for what his much less capable successors did.

[Green Arrow]

If Lincoln had lived a policy of national reconciliation would have been implemented and the post-war unpleasantness of the radicals and carpet-baggers would have been avoided. Lincoln shouldn't be blamed for what his much less capable successors did.

He isn't. He is blamed for what he did himself.

[Spectre]

FDR is an interesting case, and he's hard to judge because his career falls into two parts: the Depression and the War.

If there had been no war he would be remembered today as a badly failed president. But it was his conduct of the war that retrieved his reputation and places him in the 'great' category.

[Green Arrow]

FDR is an interesting case, and he's hard to judge because his career falls into two parts: the Depression and the War.

If there had been no war he would be remembered today as a badly failed president. But it was his conduct of the war that retrieved his reputation and places him in the 'great' category.

Provoking a non-hostile nation into war is not my idea of great conduct.

[Mainecoons]

FDR is not in my great category. His policies of attacking business and job creators turned the usual two year crash into the Great Depression. We are seeing the same pattern repeated by Obama. The only reason we don't have the bread lines is that half the country is getting a government check of one sort or another. I suspect the underground economy has also exploded.

I don't know of any of the Axis countries that could be described as non hostile. Having said that, FDR's policies definitely provoked the Japanese.

[Spectre]

True, most emphatically not a great domestic president, but he was a great war president.

[Green Arrow]

FDR is not in my great category. His policies of attacking business and job creators turned the usual two year crash into the Great Depression. We are seeing the same pattern repeated by Obama. The only reason we don't have the bread lines is that half the country is getting a government check of one sort or another. I suspect the underground economy has also exploded.

I don't know of any of the Axis countries that could be described as non hostile. Having said that, FDR's policies definitely provoked the Japanese.

Hostile to Americans, Maine. All of them were expansionist powers, but none of them had any intention of so much as looking at us.

[Spectre]

Hostile to Americans, Maine. All of them were expansionist powers, but none of them had any intention of so much as looking at us.

You need to bone up on some standard histories of the period.

Where does this absurd notion come from, that if a deadly enemy hasn't landed a soldier on your shores you shouldn't go to war with him?

It's TOTAL eccentricity and lunacy!

By that time it would be too late! Always fight as far forward from your own territory as possible.

[Green Arrow]

You need to bone up on some standard histories of the period.

Where does this absurd notion come from, that if a deadly enemy hasn't landed a soldier on your shores you shouldn't go to war with him?

It's TOTAL eccentricity and lunacy!

By that time it would be too late! Always fight as far forward from your own territory as possible.

If an enemy actually intends to land soldiers on your shores, you should absolutely and utterly destroy them before they have the chance.

Japan, Italy, and Germany never had any intentions of landing soldiers on U.S. soil, and in fact, such an idea was anathema to their cultures.

[nic34]

Following in the same vein of the "Best U.S. Presidents" thread, who do you believe are the worst Presidents in U.S. history? My list, starting from the worst and going down:

LBJ
John Adams
FDR
Woodrow Wilson
Abraham Lincoln

These five men made my list because all of them contributed in a major way to the decline of our nation and the loss of our freedoms.

You forgot Nixon and Dubya....

[Green Arrow]

You forgot Nixon and Dubya....

No, I didn't. They just aren't my top five. Nixon is in the top ten. Bush may be top ten too, it's been awhile since I evaluated them beyond the top five.

[Mister D]

The US (i.e. the FDR Adminstration) was hostile to Europe and waged an undeclared war for years before Pearl Harbor. We had ZERO interest in any intra European conflict much less in a confict between Europe (our natural, cultural ally) and the Mongols in the Kremlin.

[Mister D]

If an enemy actually intends to land soldiers on your shores, you should absolutely and utterly destroy them before they have the chance.

Japan, Italy, and Germany never had any intentions of landing soldiers on U.S. soil, and in fact, such an idea was anathema to their cultures.

We had a definite political interest in a war with Japan. None in Europe.

[Green Arrow]

We had a definite political interest in a war with Japan. None in Europe.

Right, but Japan had no interest in us. In fact, to suggest that they ever would try to harm us is ignorant. They relied on trade with us for valuable ores and other resources they could not obtain on their own. It was our cutting off that trade that made them attack us out of desperation, because the lack of those resources collapsed their economy.

[Mister D]

Right, but Japan had no interest in us. In fact, to suggest that they ever would try to harm us is ignorant. They relied on trade with us for valuable ores and other resources they could not obtain on their own. It was our cutting off that trade that made them attack us out of desperation, because the lack of those resources collapsed their economy.

Did Japan envision invading the US mainland? No, that just wasn't in the cards. That said, Japan had imperial interests that conflicted with those of the US. The war is hardly surprising and was probably inevitable as long as the US had interests in the Pacific and east Asia. I'm not defending one or the other power. Tryign to be as objective or detached as possible.

[Green Arrow]

Did Japan envision invading the US mainland? No, that just wasn't in the cards. That said, Japan had imperial interests that conflicted with those of the US. The war is hardly surprising and was probably inevitable as long as the US had interests in the Pacific and east Asia. I'm not defending one or the other power. Tryign to be as objective or detached as possible.

I don't disagree with any of this. My argument is that our interests should not have been. It's a bit hypocritical to fight a war against imperialism when you yourself are an imperialist.

[Mister D]

I don't disagree with any of this. My argument is that our interests should not have been. It's a bit hypocritical to fight a war against imperialism when you yourself are an imperialist.

I agree. It was hypocritical but wrong or right isn't the issue. I'm just describing the political reality.

[exotix]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x7xyd_IRgGs

[Libhater]

I don't disagree with any of this. My argument is that our interests should not have been. It's a bit hypocritical to fight a war against imperialism when you yourself are an imperialist.

Care to explain your belief as to why or how America is an imperialist nation?

[The Sage of Main Street]

FDR is an interesting case, and he's hard to judge because his career falls into two parts: the Depression and the War.

If there had been no war he would be remembered today as a badly failed president. But it was his conduct of the war that retrieved his reputation and places him in the 'great' category. The New Deal created the economy that kept England alive and then went on to win the war.

[The Sage of Main Street]

If an enemy actually intends to land soldiers on your shores, you should absolutely and utterly destroy them before they have the chance.

Japan, Italy, and Germany never had any intentions of landing soldiers on U.S. soil, and in fact, such an idea was anathema to their cultures. They believed in pre-emptive war and definitely would have attacked us to prevent our ever attacking them. If the New Deal hadn't increased our wealth, England would have been conquered and the Atlantic would have become a Nazi lake. All the Teddy "I Wasn't Ready" Nugents to the contrary, the Nazis would have forced us to give up just by holding key areas and causing mass starvation.

[donttread]

Following in the same vein of the "Best U.S. Presidents" thread, who do you believe are the worst Presidents in U.S. history? My list, starting from the worst and going down:

LBJ
John Adams
FDR
Woodrow Wilson
Abraham Lincoln

These five men made my list because all of them contributed in a major way to the decline of our nation and the loss of our freedoms.

Second worst = Obama 3rd worst= Bush , worst coming in 2016 id the Donkephants are allowed to stay in power

[Private Pickle]

A lot of Lincoln haters.

He was a great man and president.

[Spectre]

Lincoln was far more than just a great president:

He was a world-historical figure on a level of Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Charlemagne, Elizabeth I, Napoleon, etc.

One of humanity's towering, titanic mysteriously great figures. A man to inspire awe and profound admiration.

[Private Pickle]

Lincoln was far more than just a great president:

He was a world-historical figure on a level of Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Charlemagne, Elizabeth I, Napoleon, etc.

One of humanity's towering, titanic mysteriously great figures. A man to inspire awe and profound admiration.

Agreed. And his memorial is made from Colorado marble. Which means he gets to live on completely stoned...

[Bob]

Right, but Japan had no interest in us. In fact, to suggest that they ever would try to harm us is ignorant. They relied on trade with us for valuable ores and other resources they could not obtain on their own. It was our cutting off that trade that made them attack us out of desperation, because the lack of those resources collapsed their economy.

All FDR had to do is take the advice the senior naval commander at Pearl Harbor gave him.

Do not keep those ships at Pear Harbor. FDR blew him off. He ended up losing his job.

No sane Navy commander would bunch 167 ships into that tiny port.

167 ships. I think that number is accurate.

I am pleased that Abe gets on the list. That outlaw directed actions that killed 630,000 men,. Had he not arrogantly tried to keep Sumter, even those shots would not be fired.

Abe just figured he won and had the South over a barrel. Which as he found when he invaded VA was wrong.

General Lee and Beauregard never would have put troops into the northern states had Abe not attacked first.

GW Bush does not deserve a low ranking. He also does not deserve to be left off the top 10 list.

[Bob]

Lincoln was far more than just a great president:

He was a world-historical figure on a level of Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Charlemagne, Elizabeth I, Napoleon, etc.

One of humanity's towering, titanic mysteriously great figures. A man to inspire awe and profound admiration.

You do not get 630,000 americans killed then get called great.

Why do you suppose most on this forum rank him in the top 5 worst? Me and others rank him 1 on the worst list.

[Spectre]

You might have noticed that this forum is filled to the rafters with weird, eccentric [and a few possibly dangerously insane] characters.:laugh:

Virtually every historian, left, right and centre, think of him as I do.

His greatness was made manifest in that war, as well as what preceded it in his attempts to avert it.

[Libhater]

You do not get 630,000 americans killed then get called great.

Why do you suppose most on this forum rank him in the top 5 worst? Me and others rank him 1 on the worst list.

Oh Bob, you're breaking my heart. And I thought that you being my potential running mate would never let me down. I have Lincoln tied with Reagan as our 2nd best president behind Washington. Now get real, Lincoln responsible for 630,000 American deaths? The South started that war and you know it. We do have a lot of rebels at this site (perhaps including yourself), but that in itself is no reason to put the greatness of Lincoln down in the sewer alongside carter and Obama.

[Private Pickle]

Agreed. And his memorial is made from Colorado marble. Which means he gets to live on completely stoned...

This is a true statement by the way:

"The exterior of the Memorial echoes a classic Greek temple and features Yule marble from Colorado."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lincoln_Memorial

[Bob]

Oh Bob, you're breaking my heart. And I thought that you being my potential running mate would never let me down. I have Lincoln tied with Reagan as our 2nd best president behind Washington. Now get real, Lincoln responsible for 630,000 American deaths? The South started that war and you know it. We do have a lot of rebels at this site (perhaps including yourself), but that in itself is no reason to put the greatness of Lincoln down in the sewer alongside carter and Obama.

I have not let you down. I put the blame on Abe for what he did.

How do i do this?

Abe became president.
Abe had choices.
Abe invaded VA. Have you been to the site of 1st Manassas? I went there. I spent hours at the site. Trying to understand how it happened.

What would have happened had Abe not attacked?

He would have been forced to talk.

He did not talk. He went to war.

I live in CA. My family on moms and dads side are from the south but this has nothing to do with that.

We need to chat.

I no longer put Washington 1st. Once I had him and lincoln in the two two. Then I learned a lot more. Changed my mind.

First, Washington was wealthy beyond most of our thinking. He could afford to pay for the war. Look how long it took him and he only won because of France when they sailed to Yorktown where the Brits surrendered their southern forces. I mean, I like the man a lot. I rank Washington higher than Abe the outlaw.

When a president wages war on Americans, he sinks on my list.

If we were able to talk to those in the country upon the end of the ACW, My belief is that most would not like Abe.

When your kids get killed and the man is still in office, it is harder to forgive him once the war ends. Notice more are bitter today at Bush than when he was president. The left wingers lied about GW Bush yet he was really ranked low when he left office. He is improving pretty fast since Obama spanked his donkey.

[Spectre]

Ever heard of Ft. Sumpter?

[Bob]

You might have noticed that this forum is filled to the rafters with weird, eccentric [and a few possibly dangerously insane] characters.:laugh:

Virtually every historian, left, right and centre, think of him as I do.

His greatness was made manifest in that war, as well as what preceded it in his attempts to avert it.

Well, mostly you have left winger historians ranking these guys.

[Peter1469]

The New Deal created the economy that kept England alive and then went on to win the war.

Whut?

That makes no sense whatsoever.

[Mister D]

Win the war for who? The feral races? Guess who won, Sage? You don't seriously believe the white race gained anything from that, do you?

[Mister D]

They believed in pre-emptive war and definitely would have attacked us to prevent our ever attacking them. If the New Deal hadn't increased our wealth, England would have been conquered and the Atlantic would have become a Nazi lake. All the Teddy "I Wasn't Ready" Nugents to the contrary, the Nazis would have forced us to give up just by holding key areas and causing mass starvation.

^^^ Zionist tool

[Spectre]

^^^ Zionist tool

I am too, by choice. And by reason.

[Mister D]

I am too, by choice. And by reason.

I was too. Until I reasoned it out. We had zero to gain attacking our own people.

[Mister D]

I'll point out again that there is a great deal of disagreement on the "right" here. I see virtually none on the left.

[texan]

Easy for me, Yimmy Carter...............I will always remember the headline "Carter cuts off wheat to Russia, doesn't matter Russia eats countries!"

Yimmy was a pacifist an those types cannot be in-charge of the military. Obama, while weakening the military like a true democrat, is not a pacifist. For example Carter would NOT have taken the shot at Osama.

[Green Arrow]

Lincoln was far more than just a great president:

He was a world-historical figure on a level of Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Charlemagne, Elizabeth I, Napoleon, etc.

One of humanity's towering, titanic mysteriously great figures. A man to inspire awe and profound admiration.

Lincoln was responsible for one of the biggest violations of constitution principle and expansion of the powers of the Presidency. You have Obama now because of Lincoln.

[protectionist]

Reagan, Bush (both of them), Obama, LBJ, Nixon

[Spectre]

Reagan, Bush (both of them), Obama, LBJ, Nixon:huh:

[The Sage of Main Street]

Lincoln was far more than just a great president:

He was a world-historical figure on a level of Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Charlemagne, Elizabeth I, Napoleon, etc.

One of humanity's towering, titanic mysteriously great figures. A man to inspire awe and profound admiration. Dishonest Abe was a pathetic loser with women who lucked out in marrying a beautiful rich widow. She had seduced him specifically to get a poor-boy candidate for the Party of the Rich. The pussy-whipped prairie boy then adopted her plutocratic ideology.

Just like today, the Republicans were all about taking over property and hiring cheap labor. That's why they forced the South to secede. But unlike today, the Capitalists also made their pile by price-gouging, which was enabled by high tariffs. By disenfranchising the anti-tariff Southern planters, Lincoln's Republicans imposed the upstairs-downstairs Gilded Age of degenerate luxury-loving rich leeching off wage slavery in sweatshops.

Not that anyone cares, he authorized unpatriotic rich sissies to buy their way out of the draft. Dubya's ancestor did that and started the family fortune by selling supplies to the Union Army.

[Spectre]

Dishonest Abe was a pathetic loser with women who lucked out in marrying a beautiful rich widow. She had seduced him specifically to get a poor-boy candidate for the Party of the Rich. The pussy-whipped prairie boy then adopted her plutocratic ideology.

Just like today, the Republicans were all about taking over property and hiring cheap labor. That's why they forced the South to secede. But unlike today, the Capitalists also made their pile by price-gouging, which was enabled by high tariffs. By disenfranchising the anti-tariff Southern planters, Lincoln's Republicans imposed the upstairs-downstairs Gilded Age of degenerate luxury-loving rich leeching off wage slavery in sweatshops.

Not that anyone cares, he authorized unpatriotic rich sissies to buy their way out of the draft. Dubya's ancestor did that and started the family fortune by selling supplies to the Union Army.

Yes, yes Sage! your socialist proclivities are very well-known by now, you needn't continue to emphasize them in each and every post--we GET it already!

[The Sage of Main Street]

You might have noticed that this forum is filled to the rafters with weird, eccentric [and a few possibly dangerously insane] characters.:laugh:

Virtually every historian, left, right and centre, think of him as I do.



What makes you believe that histwhoreans aren't a united clique of narrow-minded sheltered and ignorant snobs strictly conforming to certain authorized misinterpretations that all parts of their specious spectrum hold in common? Hypocritically, these are the same know-it-alls who would say about a modern who educated himself like Lincoln, "A self-educated person has a fool for a teacher."

[Spectre]

What makes you believe that histwhoreans aren't a united clique of narrow-minded sheltered and ignorant snobs strictly conforming to certain authorized misinterpretations that all parts of their specious spectrum hold in common? Hypocritically, these are the same know-it-alls who would say about a modern who educated himself like Lincoln, "A self-educated person has a fool for a teacher."

Historians are a wildly varied group of people and getting them to agree on ANYthing is like herding cats.

[The Sage of Main Street]

The New Deal created the economy that kept England alive and then went on to win the war.


Whut?

That makes no sense whatsoever. Tell it to the Nazis.

Most of those who Reply to me on the Whirled Wad of Wub are really saying, "I never heard that before and I only listen to professional sources. So, by that fact alone, it must be stupid!"

[Spectre]

Lincoln was responsible for one of the biggest violations of constitution principle and expansion of the powers of the Presidency. You have Obama now because of Lincoln.

At a time of terrible civil war, Lincoln's actions strike me as shockingly restrained. It's unprecedented! And it could have had disastrous consequences.

As for myself, if I were in his shoes, I'd have been shooting people by the bushel for treason after peremptory tribunals.

Nice pettifogging nit-picking of constitutional principles while the country is flying apart in blood and fire seems the very summit of insanity.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Historians are a wildly varied group of people and getting them to agree on ANYthing is like herding cats. You just told us that, except for Constitutionazis who disagree for the wrong reasons, these scribbling flunkies of the ruling class all glorify Lincoln.

[Spectre]

You just told us that, except for Constitutionazis who disagree for the wrong reasons, these scribbling flunkies of the ruling class all glorify Lincoln.

The implication being, that as varied as they are, the vast majority of them agree on the greatness of Lincoln.

Which doesn't mean, of course, that they endorse everything Lincoln ever did. You can see greatness but see the dark underside of it too, and any fair assessment will have to include that. Great men also have great shortcomings and failings to match.

[Green Arrow]

At a time of terrible civil war, Lincoln's actions strike me as shockingly restrained. It's unprecedented! And it could have had disastrous consequences.

As for myself, if I were in his shoes, I'd have been shooting people by the bushel for treason after peremptory tribunals.

Nice pettifogging nit-picking of constitutional principles while the country is flying apart in blood and fire seems the very summit of insanity.

To a statist, sure. But for those of us who value freedom as the very core of society, there is no justification for infringing on it.

[Peter1469]

Not stupid, just crazy.


Tell it to the Nazis.

Most of those who Reply to me on the Whirled Wad of Wub are really saying, "I never heard that before and I only listen to professional sources. So, by that fact alone, it must be stupid!"

[donttread]

Fiscally speaking its Obama worst and Bush Jr. second, but you ain't seen nothing yet. Stick with the Donkephant and they will produce a candidate in 2016 that will make Obama and Bush look like geniuses

[The Sage of Main Street]

The implication being, that as varied as they are, the vast majority of them agree on the greatness of Lincoln.

Which doesn't mean, of course, that they endorse everything Lincoln ever did. You can see greatness but see the dark underside of it too, and any fair assessment will have to include that. Great men also have great shortcomings and failings to match. You have a point but it still seems like the No True Scotsman fallacy if they are a herd of cats except in this one case. Their near-unanimous evaluation here was PC conformity, because Lincoln was the Messiah for Blacks.

Given the ruling class's predatory contempt for their fellow White Americans of the time and forever afterwards, Lincoln dealt strongly and successfully with a destructive situation. However, that is not what caused the consensus among the bitter escapist weaklings who vindictively shout back at the world from the dungeons of the Ivory Tower.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Not stupid, just crazy. Crazy like a fox. There is a method to my madness.

[GrassrootsConservative]

1 Obama
2 Bush
3 Nixon
4 FDR
5 Taft

[Green Arrow]

1 Obama
2 Bush
3 Nixon
4 FDR
5 Taft

What, Taft? Really? Why?

[GrassrootsConservative]

What, Taft? Really? Why?

He was a fatty that got stuck in a bathtub and probably made our country look dumb as hell. He was also pretty "progressive". It must be known that I made my list in concern with who did what while they were president. After he lost the weight and got more healthy and active I would put him up there on a separate list of biggest post-presidential recoveries.

But in office? A literal fat cat.

The election between him and FDR is probably the only time in history where people were more disgusted with their politicians than with Obama and Romney.

They're both literal examples of the crippling effects of progressiveness as opposed to where our country stood upon foundation and after the founding fathers were dead, but before the progressive plague started.

[Green Arrow]

He was a fatty that got stuck in a bathtub and probably made our country look dumb as hell. He was also pretty "progressive". It must be known that I made my list in concern with who did what while they were president. After he lost the weight and got more healthy and active I would put him up there on a separate list of biggest post-presidential recoveries.

But in office? A literal fat cat.

The election between him and FDR is probably the only time in history where people were more disgusted with their politicians than with Obama and Romney.

They're both literal examples of the crippling effects of progressiveness as opposed to where our country stood upon foundation and after the founding fathers were dead, but before the progressive plague started.

I think you meant Wilson. Taft never ran against FDR, and died before FDR's first campaign. Progressives back then were also different than they are today. Teddy Roosevelt would have been just as disgusted with today's "progressives" as you and I are.

Also, the bathtub thing was a myth. Popular myth, but myth nonetheless.

[GrassrootsConservative]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1912

Taft and Roosevelt most certainly ran in the same election together. They even have a cartoon depicting the two as being such great enemies.

I learned the bathtub thing in school. Pretty sure it's true. I did reports on Thomas Jefferson and Taft in elementary school.

[Green Arrow]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_presidential_election,_1912

Taft and Roosevelt most certainly ran in the same election together. They even have a cartoon depicting the two as being such great enemies.

Right, Teddy Roosevelt. You said FDR.

And by the by, Teddy Roosevelt was immensely popular in America. So I don't see the parallel between them and Obama-Romney.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Lol oops. Don't know why I said FDR. Meant TR.

Obama is "immensely popular" in America. Especially for his accomplishments (which can probably all be counted on one hand). That's the problem. When someone is so popular it becomes hard to break through the veil most people wear.

[Green Arrow]

Lol oops. Don't know why I said FDR. Meant TR.

Obama is "immensely popular" in America. Especially for his accomplishments (which can probably all be counted on one hand). That's the problem. When someone is so popular it becomes hard to break through the veil most people wear.

I would hardly call Obama immensely popular. Even Democrats these days are like, "The fuck you doing?" He's immensely popular with drones like Cigar, exotix, and Montoya, but that's about it. Matter of fact, I wish I could get all my old school mates back in California on this forum. All of them are either (classical) progressives like me or libertarians. They would have voted for Obama in 2008 (none of us were legal at the time), but in 2012 they all voted for Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, and Jill Stein. Even the kids that beat me up for wearing a McCain/Palin shirt back in the day (still leaves a bad taste in my mouth...) have turned on Obama.

[GrassrootsConservative]

There are a lot of those drones out there.

[Libhater]

I would hardly call Obama immensely popular. Even Democrats these days are like, "The fuck you doing?" He's immensely popular with drones like Cigar, exotix, and Montoya, but that's about it. Matter of fact, I wish I could get all my old school mates back in California on this forum. All of them are either (classical) progressives like me or libertarians. They would have voted for Obama in 2008 (none of us were legal at the time), but in 2012 they all voted for Ron Paul, Gary Johnson, and Jill Stein. Even the kids that beat me up for wearing a McCain/Palin shirt back in the day (still leaves a bad taste in my mouth...) have turned on Obama.

Jill Stein is an outright commie. Perhaps when you have time you might want to tell us the difference between a progressive and a classical progressive....if any. Inquiring minds want to know.

[Green Arrow]

Jill Stein is an outright commie. Perhaps when you have time you might want to tell us the difference between a progressive and a classical progressive....if any. Inquiring minds want to know.

I would be delighted to. I'll start working on it tomorrow.

[Mister D]

Jill Stein is an outright commie. Perhaps when you have time you might want to tell us the difference between a progressive and a classical progressive....if any. Inquiring minds want to know.

There are some differences. The strident racism of early progressivism for one.

[Green Arrow]

There are some differences. The strident racism of early progressivism for one.

Product of the times. Racism isn't an exclusively progressive idea.

[Mister D]

Product of the times. Racism isn't an exclusively progressive idea.

I didn't say it was. "Product of the times"? Are your own better?

[KC]

I didn't say it was. "Product of the times"? Are your own better?

We're the best. Just like every generation before us.

[Green Arrow]

I didn't say it was. "Product of the times"? Are your own better?

Of course not. Every generation is screwed up in some way.

[Mister D]

Of course not. Every generation is screwed up in some way.

My comment was matter of fact. no judgement implied.

[Spectre]

To a statist, sure. But for those of us who value freedom as the very core of society, there is no justification for infringing on it.

Ha! The sundae is melting, but all you think about is saving the cherry on top!

In a mortal crisis that could end your country in a heartbeat, fuck 'freedom of speech'! You have to restore the nation to safety and stability, then you can re-activate the constitution again.

[Mainecoons]

Funny how your ideas always lead to tyranny. The force that contravenes the Constitution to "save" it never will restore it.

[KC]

Ha! The sundae is melting, but all you think about is saving the cherry on top!

In a mortal crisis that could end your country in a heartbeat, fuck 'freedom of speech'! You have to restore the nation to safety and stability, then you can re-activate the constitution again.

Freedom of speech isn't the cherry on top, it's the whole fucking sundae. If you lose that there's nothing worth saving anymore, because the essential ingredient is missing.

[del]

Ha! The sundae is melting, but all you think about is saving the cherry on top!

In a mortal crisis that could end your country in a heartbeat, fuck 'freedom of speech'! You have to restore the nation to safety and stability, then you can re-activate the constitution again.


:rofl:

get back under your bed

[Spectre]

You don't pay attention to the niceties when your country is being ripped to pieces and you don't even know if you're going to have one in a few months which was the case in the early to mid 1860s.

[del]

:rollseyes:

[KC]

You don't pay attention to the niceties when your country is being ripped to pieces and you don't even know if you're going to have one in a few months which was the case in the early to mid 1860s.

It depends on who the impersonal "you" is applied to. For some, unity is less important than liberty. This is why the American revolutionaries felt it necessary to dissolve their union with Britain. There were others who felt that maintenance of the status quo was more important.

Preserving the union was the proper thing to do, but was the suspension of the writ of habeas corpus necessary for a union victory? I doubt you'll find unanimity among historians on the question.

[Green Arrow]

Ha! The sundae is melting, but all you think about is saving the cherry on top!

In a mortal crisis that could end your country in a heartbeat, fuck 'freedom of speech'! You have to restore the nation to safety and stability, then you can re-activate the constitution again.

There is no safety and stability without our essential freedoms. As KC said, free speech is the whole sundae, "safety and stability" is the cherry on top.

[midcan5]

While it is an ambivalent choice Reagan is the worst president in contemporary times. He started the downfall of the middle class with his actions and ideas concerning the working classes in America, his anti-government rhetoric, we can also thank Bush jr for some of the worst scotus selections as they have much power in our political / economic sphere. See list below for historical choices. "....there's a growing realization that the starting point for many of the catastrophes confronting the United States today can be traced to Reagan's presidency. There's also a grudging reassessment that the "failed"- presidents of the 1970s--Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter--may deserve more credit for trying to grapple with the problems that now beset the country." http://www.opednews.com/articles/Ronald-Reagan-Worst-Presi-by-Robert-Parry-090605-584.html"

Since 1982, the Siena Research Institute has polled presidential scholars on whom they view to be best and worst presidents in American history, based on a variety of issues from “integrity” to economic stewardship. This year’s poll of 238 scholars found that President Franklin Roosevelt was once again ranked on top, joined by Presidents Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington, and Teddy Roosevelt to complete the top five. However, President George W. Bush did not fare well since the last poll was conducted in 2002. He dropped 16 places to 39th, making him the worst president since Warren Harding died in office in 1923, and one of the bottom five of all time, according to the experts:"Today, just one year after leaving office, the former president [George W. Bush] has found himself in the bottom five at 39th rated especially poorly in handling the economy, communication, ability to compromise, foreign policy accomplishments and intelligence. Rounding out the bottom five are four presidents that have held that dubious distinction each time the survey has been conducted: Andrew Johnson, James Buchanan, Warren G. Harding, and Franklin Pierce."http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0701/nations-leading-presidential-scholars-bush-worst-president-modern-era-5th-worst-history/


While (http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0701/nations-leading-presidential-scholars-bush-worst-president-modern-era-5th-worst-history/While) the right wing conservatives don't like to hear about Bush Jr, there is no doubt he was a catastrophe of epic proportion. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/01/08/damage/index.html

[Refugee]

You're amazing Midcan. Only you could make a case for the huge decline and destruction of the middle classes under Obama and blame it on someone thirty years ago. :laugh:

[del]

You're amazing Midcan. Only you could make a case for the huge decline and destruction of the middle classes under Obama and blame it on someone thirty years ago. :laugh:

only a fool or a brit would ascribe the decline of the middle classes in america solely to the policies of the last five years

[Peter1469]

Insanity.

Reagan started the largest peacetime economic expansion in history.

And the loons on the left call that bad. :smiley:

We need to bring back history tests in order to vote. Then we could cull the voter rolls and fix the nation.


While it is an ambivalent choice Reagan is the worst president in contemporary times. He started the downfall of the middle class with his actions and ideas concerning the working classes in America, his anti-government rhetoric, we can also thank Bush jr for some of the worst scotus selections as they have much power in our political / economic sphere. See list below for historical choices. "....there's a growing realization that the starting point for many of the catastrophes confronting the United States today can be traced to Reagan's presidency. There's also a grudging reassessment that the "failed"- presidents of the 1970s--Richard Nixon, Gerald Ford and Jimmy Carter--may deserve more credit for trying to grapple with the problems that now beset the country." http://www.opednews.com/articles/Ronald-Reagan-Worst-Presi-by-Robert-Parry-090605-584.html"

Since 1982, the Siena Research Institute has polled presidential scholars on whom they view to be best and worst presidents in American history, based on a variety of issues from “integrity” to economic stewardship. This year’s poll of 238 scholars found that President Franklin Roosevelt was once again ranked on top, joined by Presidents Lincoln, Jefferson, Washington, and Teddy Roosevelt to complete the top five. However, President George W. Bush did not fare well since the last poll was conducted in 2002. He dropped 16 places to 39th, making him the worst president since Warren Harding died in office in 1923, and one of the bottom five of all time, according to the experts:"Today, just one year after leaving office, the former president [George W. Bush] has found himself in the bottom five at 39th rated especially poorly in handling the economy, communication, ability to compromise, foreign policy accomplishments and intelligence. Rounding out the bottom five are four presidents that have held that dubious distinction each time the survey has been conducted: Andrew Johnson, James Buchanan, Warren G. Harding, and Franklin Pierce."http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0701/nations-leading-presidential-scholars-bush-worst-president-modern-era-5th-worst-history/


While (http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0701/nations-leading-presidential-scholars-bush-worst-president-modern-era-5th-worst-history/While) the right wing conservatives don't like to hear about Bush Jr, there is no doubt he was a catastrophe of epic proportion. http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/01/08/damage/index.html

[Refugee]

only a fool or a brit would ascribe the decline of the middle classes in america solely to the policies of the last five years

I didn't mention the word 'solely' you did. The policies of the last five years have hastened it to the extent that they're now collapsing. Reagan is responsible for that? Only yourself and some liberals would believe that, but then that's not surprising. You can fool some of the people all of the time; change you can believe in? :laugh:

[del]

I didn't mention the word 'solely' you did. The policies of the last five years have hastened it to the extent that they're now collapsing. Reagan is responsible for that? Only yourself and some liberals would believe that, but then that's not surprising. You can fool some of the people all of the time; change you can believe in? :laugh:

i didn't mention reagan

now get back to your spotted dick

[Refugee]

i didn't mention reagan

now get back to your spotted dick

I think I got you mixed up with midcan or maybe Montoya, same thing. :laugh:

[Ransom]

midcan needs a distraction. His hero, mentor, and messiah is a complete and utter failure and has proven unqualified to do the Bush family laundry. Our current President's record abysmal at best, his signature health care initiative an utter disaster, he's added more to the national debt than all previous Presidents before him combined, his domestic policies on the economy are never met a government program he didn't like. He has no energy policy, no entitlement policy but to add more, no foreign policy, he's the weakest and most incompetent President in our history, midcan knows this....and thus needs a distraction. Must be an election coming, time to bring out the Bush links.

[Spectre]

That comprehensive clusterfuck Bammy the Befuddled has the swivel-eyed leftist forum loons like midscam, del, montoya and exotix scrambling and in panic mode: liberal progressivism is reigning unchained, and rather than creating a better nation and paradise on earth, is rapidly undermining the country and sowing chaos and suffering not only in the US but world-wide.

[The Sage of Main Street]

only a fool or a brit would ascribe the decline of the middle classes in america solely to the policies of the last five years The Brit Twit is strumming on his UKulele as Magic Maggie does a hula dance for him.

[Matty]

only a fool or a brit would ascribe the decline of the middle classes in america solely to the policies of the last five years


Nothing is is ever obama's fault! Del has that tattooed on his ass.

[del]

Nothing is is ever obama's fault! Del has that tattooed on his ass.

i already told you that tattoos are for drunks and losers

try to keep up

[Matty]

i already told you that tattoos are for drunks and losers

try to keep up
Well then let's tattoo your ass.

[del]

Well then let's tattoo your ass.

you misspelled kiss

go right ahead

[Bob]

only a fool or a brit would ascribe the decline of the middle classes in america solely to the policies of the last five years

Even Demoncrats claim that it has got worse in the past 6 years. No sign of improvement of the middle class is even hinted at by Obama.

[Matty]

you misspelled kiss

go right ahead


You misspelled kick thank you I will.

[Bob]

There is no safety and stability without our essential freedoms. As @KC (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=423) said, free speech is the whole sundae, "safety and stability" is the cherry on top.

Sundae? Cherry?

I don't know how you are, but when I purchase a Sundae, the cherry is the first part eaten. I don't quite understand your analogy.

[Green Arrow]

Sundae? Cherry?

I don't know how you are, but when I purchase a Sundae, the cherry is the first part eaten. I don't quite understand your analogy.

It's not my analogy, it's Spectre's. I just used it for my own purposes.

[Spectre]

If you don't like my sundae/cherry analogy, here's a better one [I think it might be Tom Paine]:

" We pity the plumage, and forget the dying bird."

[texan]

Dishonest Abe was a pathetic loser with women who lucked out in marrying a beautiful rich widow. She had seduced him specifically to get a poor-boy candidate for the Party of the Rich. The pussy-whipped prairie boy then adopted her plutocratic ideology.

Just like today, the Republicans were all about taking over property and hiring cheap labor. That's why they forced the South to secede. But unlike today, the Capitalists also made their pile by price-gouging, which was enabled by high tariffs. By disenfranchising the anti-tariff Southern planters, Lincoln's Republicans imposed the upstairs-downstairs Gilded Age of degenerate luxury-loving rich leeching off wage slavery in sweatshops.

Not that anyone cares, he authorized unpatriotic rich sissies to buy their way out of the draft. Dubya's ancestor did that and started the family fortune by selling supplies to the Union Army.

:) like the rich haven't been buying their way out of things since the earth became home. Snicker.

[Redrose]

Obama
Bush
Johnson
FDR
Wilson
Lincoln
Hoover

Don't forget Carter

[zelmo1234]

Hostile to Americans, Maine. All of them were expansionist powers, but none of them had any intention of so much as looking at us.

This is false, the reason that Germany and Japan were allies is to put the USA in a two front war. Yes the USA was the final goal, but they both understood that the industrial power of the USA was the largest threat. Germany was not thrilled when japan invaded pearl harbor. because it brought the USA into the war too soon

Revisionist history is not surprising the libs have been trying to turn the USA in to the aggressor nation in all conflict to justify the policy of appeasement

This helps them sleep at night I suppose!

[zelmo1234]

If an enemy actually intends to land soldiers on your shores, you should absolutely and utterly destroy them before they have the chance.

Japan, Italy, and Germany never had any intentions of landing soldiers on U.S. soil, and in fact, such an idea was anathema to their cultures.

So apparently the USA was not on planet earth in the 1940's?

They certainly did, Japan specifically wanted the vast natural recourses possessed by the USA, they thought they had more time because FDR had the USA so far behind the rest of the world in economic recovery!

Once again liberalism, just like today is turning a blind eye toward evil. they don't want to be bothers as the mass murder of innocents goes on around the world.

Then when it hits home? they will have Faux shock and horror at the situation. but hell hath no fury like a liberal scorned. Thus you get things like the atomic bomb drops on japan, and the fire bombing of the cities in Germany

This is why liberalism must be defeated, it is dangerous! They claim to be in support of the soldier and support policies that will send him or her in to a massive conflict with other massive powers, all because they are not wiling to confront evil?

And why is it that they will not call things evil? The liberal agenda, that whatever you think is moral is all good!

It is a sad and dangerous world that we live in!

[zelmo1234]

Right, but Japan had no interest in us. In fact, to suggest that they ever would try to harm us is ignorant. They relied on trade with us for valuable ores and other resources they could not obtain on their own. It was our cutting off that trade that made them attack us out of desperation, because the lack of those resources collapsed their economy.

It did not collapse their economy it prevent them from producing war supplies to kill Chinese people!

This is what I love a bout liberals. WE should not have stopped selling ore and oil to japan even though they were using it for the mass murder of the Chinese people? How the hell do you justify that!

Japan, Brittan, France and the USA, were the only country's that had what we would call today a blue water navy, Germany had promised Japan control of the pacific, the attack on pearl harbor was to destroy that power, and if not for the battle of midway! a base that that Japan wanted to use to attack Hawaii? and the fact that the carriers were not in Pearl harbor, it is likely that the west coast would be much different today!

[zelmo1234]

You do not get 630,000 americans killed then get called great.

Why do you suppose most on this forum rank him in the top 5 worst? Me and others rank him 1 on the worst list.

While some of this is certainly true, had it not been for the actions of Lincoln, the USA would not likely have had the power to influence the world in WWII! and would likely have not been able to provide the charity around the world that we do!

The southern states would have certainly had no choice but to attack the north at some point as the agricultural economy and aristocracy that were ways of life in the USA had already started to decline long before the separation of the USA!


Often times make the Presidency, and while it is true that circumstances allowed Lincoln to amass more executive power than any other president, it can't be overlooked that without his actions, the world would be a very different place today!

With that being said, he does not belong on the bottom five list!

Those presidents that actually damaged the power of the USA and lead to conflict do! Or those that openly attacked the constition

Starting from the worst

Obama
Wilson
FDR
Carter
Teddy

[zelmo1234]

I have not let you down. I put the blame on Abe for what he did.

How do i do this?

Abe became president.
Abe had choices.
Abe invaded VA. Have you been to the site of 1st Manassas? I went there. I spent hours at the site. Trying to understand how it happened.

What would have happened had Abe not attacked?

He would have been forced to talk.

He did not talk. He went to war.

I live in CA. My family on moms and dads side are from the south but this has nothing to do with that.

We need to chat.

I no longer put Washington 1st. Once I had him and lincoln in the two two. Then I learned a lot more. Changed my mind.

First, Washington was wealthy beyond most of our thinking. He could afford to pay for the war. Look how long it took him and he only won because of France when they sailed to Yorktown where the Brits surrendered their southern forces. I mean, I like the man a lot. I rank Washington higher than Abe the outlaw.

When a president wages war on Americans, he sinks on my list.

If we were able to talk to those in the country upon the end of the ACW, My belief is that most would not like Abe.

When your kids get killed and the man is still in office, it is harder to forgive him once the war ends. Notice more are bitter today at Bush than when he was president. The left wingers lied about GW Bush yet he was really ranked low when he left office. He is improving pretty fast since Obama spanked his donkey.

That is good, but the south had left the Union, they were no longer Americans they were confederates.

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/civilwar/a/CivilWarFirst.htm

Rewriting history is not something that I cotton to, and it appears that those that want to blame Lincoln have decided that he should have followed the liberal policy of appeasement

Also remember this! The first shots of the civil war happened days after Lincoln took office! Only those that thought appeasement of the south was the could put him this far down on the list.

It would also appear that they want to overlook the fact they are defending those that thought owning other people was a good idea

[Perianne]

While some of this is certainly true, had it not been for the actions of Lincoln, the USA would not likely have had the power to influence the world in WWII! and would likely have not been able to provide the charity around the world that we do!

About 2% of the North and South population died during the Civil War. If Obama, for whatever reason, does something that causes the death of 2% of the American population (which would be about 6 million), would you forgive him?

[Green Arrow]

It did not collapse their economy it prevent them from producing war supplies to kill Chinese people!

This is what I love a bout liberals. WE should not have stopped selling ore and oil to japan even though they were using it for the mass murder of the Chinese people? How the hell do you justify that!

Japan, Brittan, France and the USA, were the only country's that had what we would call today a blue water navy, Germany had promised Japan control of the pacific, the attack on pearl harbor was to destroy that power, and if not for the battle of midway! a base that that Japan wanted to use to attack Hawaii? and the fact that the carriers were not in Pearl harbor, it is likely that the west coast would be much different today!

Zelmo, if you want a response from me, talk to me, not at me. All this ranting about liberals when responding to me is bullshit. If you can't talk to me about what I say, don't talk to me.

[zelmo1234]

About 2% of the North and South population died during the Civil War. If Obama, for whatever reason, does something that causes the death of 2% of the American population (which would be about 6 million), would you forgive him?

Lincoln did not fire the first shot he sent food to Americans that Jefferson Davis was trying to starve to death.

the Confederate States did not consider themselves to be part of America trying to rewrite history will not change that.


There can be now denying that it was a terrible war. Obama right now by doing nothing in the face of evil expansion is likely going to cause millions of Americans to die! But those that love the policy of appeasement don't get that.

If Lincoln had not kept the country together, the world would be a very different place today. the USA would not be the military, or economic power that it is today and as much as liberals want to say that they USA is a bad country it has done more to keep evil in check than any country in history

Now the real question Those that support the policy of Abortion see 3500 Americans killed everyday? Can you forgive them?

[zelmo1234]

Zelmo, if you want a response from me, talk to me, not at me. All this ranting about liberals when responding to me is bullshit. If you can't talk to me about what I say, don't talk to me.

I an sorry Green last time I checked you were not my master. If you have no answer for the questions then don't respond, I will not sugar coat things because you are sensitive!

So if you want to come up with a great reason that we should have continued to send supplies to Japan knowing they were using them to kill not only Chinese military but entire cites in China? Go ahead and justify that.

But it is more likely that you will whine about something else!

[Green Arrow]

I an sorry Green last time I checked you were not my master. If you have no answer for the questions then don't respond, I will not sugar coat things because you are sensitive!

So if you want to come up with a great reason that we should have continued to send supplies to Japan knowing they were using them to kill not only Chinese military but entire cites in China? Go ahead and justify that.

But it is more likely that you will whine about something else!

Not trying to be your master, just telling you how it is. I show you respect, I expect respect in return. Talking past me or acting like somebody else's attitude is mine just because we are on the same side of the spectrum is disrespectful.

[zelmo1234]

Not trying to be your master, just telling you how it is. I show you respect, I expect respect in return. Talking past me or acting like somebody else's attitude is mine just because we are on the same side of the spectrum is disrespectful.

But I am not, many times there are more than just you that are trying to make the same point, and while I may use your quote, the response may be designed to reach more than one!

If you don't know me well enough by now, to know that I am not trying to offend! then you never will! I am willing to accept answer from any and all!

[The Sage of Main Street]

Don't forget Carter Did you know that a month before the hostage crisis, the Iranian student mob did a dry run, occupying our embassy and then leaving? Peanuthead took it as a sign that they only wanted to make a statement.

The Marines should have fired on the mob. Protecting the embassy with their lives was their primary duty, countermanding all appeasement orders. The importance of their security job is why they had such soft duty, but when push came to shove, the Marine guards were pushovers.

[The Sage of Main Street]

About 2% of the North and South population died during the Civil War. If Obama, for whatever reason, does something that causes the death of 2% of the American population (which would be about 6 million), would you forgive him? The Righties have never forgiven Obama for killing Osama, which made their Chickenhawk heroes look like the unpatriotic greed-distracted incompetents they've been since prep school.

[Libhater]

The Righties have never forgiven Obama for killing Osama, which made their Chickenhawk heroes look like the unpatriotic greed-distracted incompetents they've been since prep school.

First of all it wasn't that chickenshit obummer who killed Osama. Pretty sure it was the Navy Seals that did the killing. Second, osama was spotted out in the open during bubba Clinton's second term to where the draft dodging bubba refused to give the orders to gun him down, thus setting the stage for his eventual killing many years later. Third, George Bush served while the draft dodging Clinton decided to rail against our military with his infamous pussy letter to his recruiting officer. But please, keep up with the revisionist history as we all could use a laugh now and then.

[Captain Obvious]

First of all it wasn't that chickenshit obummer who killed Osama. Pretty sure it was the Navy Seals that did the killing. Second, osama was spotted out in the open during bubba Clinton's second term to where the draft dodging bubba refused to give the orders to gun him down, thus setting the stage for his eventual killing many years later. Third, George Bush served while the draft dodging Clinton decided to rail against our military with his infamous pussy letter to his recruiting officer.

And yet the O'bama got our folks in Benghazi killed.

It's the blatant, unchecked hypocrisy that cause you people to have zero credibility.

[Libhater]

And yet the O'bama got our folks in Benghazi killed.

It's the blatant, unchecked hypocrisy that cause you people to have zero credibility.

Yeah, obummer's lack of a clear accounting of the military protection or the lack of protection for those 4 at Bengahzi shows just how incompetent and disinterested he is of any and all of our foreign affairs. I suppose you grade the scared and absent pres an A for having duped as many people (including yourself) into believing he's doing a crackerjack job.

[texan]

Kind of reminds me of ISIS.

[Bob]

And yet the O'bama got our folks in Benghazi killed.

It's the blatant, unchecked hypocrisy that cause you people to have zero credibility.

Funny how NOW, JUST NOW, he boosts forces in Iraq to protect the embassy.


The POS is never on time. He always is dragged kicking and screaming to the point he finally figures out that his job as CIC includes protecting our people. The Ambassador directly speaks for the President. But make excuses for the Obummer.

[Bob]

First of all it wasn't that chickenshit obummer who killed Osama. Pretty sure it was the Navy Seals that did the killing. Second, osama was spotted out in the open during bubba Clinton's second term to where the draft dodging bubba refused to give the orders to gun him down, thus setting the stage for his eventual killing many years later. Third, George Bush served while the draft dodging Clinton decided to rail against our military with his infamous pussy letter to his recruiting officer. But please, keep up with the revisionist history as we all could use a laugh now and then.

Totally true. Obama tells how killing Bin Laden was a super hard decision for him. I bet to this day he regrets ordering the killing of a Muslim.

[Bob]

Not trying to be your master, just telling you how it is. I show you respect, I expect respect in return. Talking past me or acting like somebody else's attitude is mine just because we are on the same side of the spectrum is disrespectful.

You refused to answer his questions as you demanded respect. Something for you to think over.

[zelmo1234]

You refused to answer his questions as you demanded respect. Something for you to think over.

This is a very effective tactic if you think about it ?

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Mainecoons http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=649372#post649372)
Obama
Bush
Johnson
FDR
Wilson
Lincoln
Hoover


Don't forget Carter

GW Bush does not belong on that list nor does Herbert Hoover. Hoover caught hell over his policies which happened to be similar to the FDR policies on correcting the economy.

At one time, no president was so arrogant he actually believe he had the means and authority to cure economies. Today those pretending to be president say it all the time, how they fix economies.

Even though I admire Reagan most of all of former presidents, even he did not claim he cured the economy. He gave great credit to lower taxes (the lower taxed public played a role in curing a terrible economy) as well as the then head of the Federal Reserve who we can thank for correcting a run away inflation.

The worst thing I blame Hoover for was the higher tariffs.

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=654599#post654599)
You refused to answer his questions as you demanded respect. Something for you to think over.


This is a very effective tactic if you think about it ?

He pulls that same crap on me so i get it.

[Bob]

Lincoln did not fire the first shot he sent food to Americans that Jefferson Davis was trying to starve to death.

the Confederate States did not consider themselves to be part of America trying to rewrite history will not change that.


There can be now denying that it was a terrible war. Obama right now by doing nothing in the face of evil expansion is likely going to cause millions of Americans to die! But those that love the policy of appeasement don't get that.

If Lincoln had not kept the country together, the world would be a very different place today. the USA would not be the military, or economic power that it is today and as much as liberals want to say that they USA is a bad country it has done more to keep evil in check than any country in history

Now the real question Those that support the policy of Abortion see 3500 Americans killed everyday? Can you forgive them?

I must enter the room to give 5 cents worth of thinking.

Abe the Outlaw refused to recognise the human rights the South, as the South wished to have them.
Abe did send food but it did not reach Ft. Sumter. And the ship was fired at. I don't recall any injuries on the ship. There were no injuries caused by the Confederates at Ft. Sumpter.

This all changed when Outlaw Abe invaded.

Abe did not control much land. The bulk of today's America was still held by others.

So, had Abe not invaded but moved west, he could have ran a huge part of America as we call the union.

i see no excuse for presidents invading states to impose his will on the citizens.

When he won, he caused the public to lose freedom.

[Peter1469]

One real danger was what the European powers would do. Under the custom of the day they were not going to overtly support the CSA until such time as it obtained the status of a belligerent (legal term of art). The CSA never obtained that status on the battlefield.

Had Lincoln essentially ignored the CSA and pushed west, the CSA may well have been recognized as a sovereign power. After that, who knows what would have happened. Various European powers may have taken sides and sent military support. North America could have become an extension of the European wars.


\
I must enter the room to give 5 cents worth of thinking.

Abe the Outlaw refused to recognise the human rights the South, as the South wished to have them.
Abe did send food but it did not reach Ft. Sumter. And the ship was fired at. I don't recall any injuries on the ship. There were no injuries caused by the Confederates at Ft. Sumpter.

This all changed when Outlaw Abe invaded.

Abe did not control much land. The bulk of today's America was still held by others.

So, had Abe not invaded but moved west, he could have ran a huge part of America as we call the union.

i see no excuse for presidents invading states to impose his will on the citizens.

When he won, he caused the public to lose freedom.

[Bob]

That is good, but the south had left the Union, they were no longer Americans they were confederates.

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/civilwar/a/CivilWarFirst.htm

Rewriting history is not something that I cotton to, and it appears that those that want to blame Lincoln have decided that he should have followed the liberal policy of appeasement

Also remember this! The first shots of the civil war happened days after Lincoln took office! Only those that thought appeasement of the south was the could put him this far down on the list.

It would also appear that they want to overlook the fact they are defending those that thought owning other people was a good idea

They quit the Union but I am not certain it made them no longer Americans.
Did the free people of those states have any rights?

Certainly they had rights. Jefferson declared changing the Government is okay. And Jefferson is not alone in believing that.

Keep in mind that those of those days were very close to the founding days.

It was not appeasement on my part. It is that I totally respect the rights of the public, to hold meetings, open and notorious, to decide what they want in Government.

When Government fails so many they must escape, then I vote they have that right.

Abe is part of today's history yet at the time he was not that well remembered. (thought of) I have to check out polls but I believe by 1865 he was not widely liked all over the current land of the USA.

I believe peace has ways to work things out. Persuasion, which he was known for, should have been used had it taken him 4 years of hard work.

He had no call to invade the South. That was his decision so I blame him for it.

I keep saying, had the South invaded north states, by 1861, then I would blame the South for aggression.

https://mises.org/journals/qjae/pdf/qjae3_4_6.pdf

This is by Mark Thornton at Columbia State University

I am not alone in my beliefs zelmo1234

[Bob]

One real danger was what the European powers would do. Under the custom of the day they were not going to overtly support the CSA until such time as it obtained the status of a belligerent (legal term of art). The CSA never obtained that status on the battlefield.

Had Lincoln essentially ignored the CSA and pushed west, the CSA may well have been recognized as a sovereign power. After that, who knows what would have happened. Various European powers may have taken sides and sent military support. North America could have become an extension of the European wars.


\

There must be a zillion ways this could spin out of control had Europe got deeply involved.

My essential case can be expressed to a large degree here.

https://mises.org/journals/qjae/pdf/qjae3_4_6.pdf

Best in this book

http://www.amazon.com/When-Course-Human-Events-Secession/dp/0847697231

Review

Every year a book comes along that shatters common myths, June 29, 2000
By
Ethan E. Harris "Ethan E. Harris" (http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/A3J031UXHGZTWV/ref=cm_cr_rdp_pdp)



This review is from: When in the Course of Human Events: Arguing the Case for Southern Secession (Hardcover)
This is that book.
I'm an Army veteran. My history classes were immersed in the depths of Lincoln worship. I knew the reason for the Civil War: Abolition of slavery...I would not be easily swayed.
Until I read this book.
Before my reaction, a brief note on the style: This book has excellent primary source documentation. It draws not only from Antebellum but Reconstructionist writings. Not just North, but also South. Not just U.S., but also foreign. Not just political, but military and civilian as well. This is a well-rounded historical presentation of the events surrounding the Civil War.
More on technique: The bad stuff. The only negative criticism that I have is that not all subordinate assertions are documented. The major themes are well presented and end-noted, but arguments supporting those major themes are not well established. That's it. That was the only bad thing I have to say.
Well not really. I have a lot of bad stuff to say about Lincoln's misbehavior, lack of military ethic, civilian atrocities, theft of personal property, imprisonment of the political opposition in the North, fixed elections, disallowance of Free Speech, constitutional negation (the trampling of all Amendments), invasion of a foreign country, forfeiting State's "sovereign right" to govern themselves, suspension of due legal process and ethnic cleansing.
Lincoln even tried to arrest the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court for publishing an opinion that demonstrated Lincoln was in error for suspending the right to trial.
Lincoln forced the South into their situation. For what purpose? As Charles Adams demonstrates, it was for not for the preservation of the Union, but the preservation of the Northern economy (which would not exist if the South were a foreign nation).
If you presently disagree with this summary of only a few of Adams' points, please do get this title. Check his end-notes for accuracy. Whateve you have to do, but do read this book!

[zelmo1234]

They quit the Union but I am not certain it made them no longer Americans.
Did the free people of those states have any rights?

Certainly they had rights. Jefferson declared changing the Government is okay. And Jefferson is not alone in believing that.

Keep in mind that those of those days were very close to the founding days.

It was not appeasement on my part. It is that I totally respect the rights of the public, to hold meetings, open and notorious, to decide what they want in Government.

When Government fails so many they must escape, then I vote they have that right.

Abe is part of today's history yet at the time he was not that well remembered. (thought of) I have to check out polls but I believe by 1865 he was not widely liked all over the current land of the USA.

I believe peace has ways to work things out. Persuasion, which he was known for, should have been used had it taken him 4 years of hard work.

He had no call to invade the South. That was his decision so I blame him for it.

I keep saying, had the South invaded north states, by 1861, then I would blame the South for aggression.

https://mises.org/journals/qjae/pdf/qjae3_4_6.pdf

This is by Mark Thornton at Columbia State University

I am not alone in my beliefs @zelmo1234 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=588)

There were union troops in Fort Sumter, they were under siege by the south, the south left the union but the fort was a union fort, they had no obligation to abandon the fort!

Lincoln did not abandon the fort he tried to resupply the fort, and had actually made contact saying that it was in fact a supply shipment.

The fort was fired upon by the Confederate Armies.

Try as you might to change history the first shots of the civil war were in fact fired by the south, not the north!

So now what!

And Yes Jefferson did say that the people have the right to throw of unjust governments, but they knew when they sent the declaration to England that if they did not win the revolution they would be hung!

So the difference between a revolution and an uprising, is weather or not you win! Had the South won the war, there would be the confederate states and the United States, and who knows maybe still slavery?

But there also would be very large points of German Speaking countries, and Very large parts of Japanese speaking countries. And maybe not any states at all!

Lincoln was molded more by events than agenda. Remember back then it was not Jan, but March that presidents took office! The war started the next month, and he proceeded to loose for more than 2 years

[The Xl]

Really, every President since Kennedy has been pretty fucking bad.

I'm not reading through all this shit, but I'm sure Democrats picked Bush squared or Reagan, and Republicans picked Obama.

The worst President ever is probably Wilson, followed by Lyndon Johnson

[The Xl]

Obama
Bush
Johnson
FDR
Wilson
Lincoln
Hoover

This isn't in order, right? No way do Bush and Obama have a case over Wilson and Johnson

[The Xl]

The fucking FED was the dagger in the republic, and from that instance, the battle between good and evil was over, as bankers took over the country.

No one has a case over him, but Johnson tried his fucking hardest, with the Kennedy assassination fiasco and the war on poverty among other wonderful things

[Bob]

The fucking FED was the dagger in the republic, and from that instance, the battle between good and evil was over, as bankers took over the country.

No one has a case over him, but Johnson tried his fucking hardest, with the Kennedy assassination fiasco and the war on poverty among other wonderful things

Bankers don't own the country.

Johnson proclaimed that his civil rights act would have them *iggar* supporting the Democrats for 100 years. Well, his prediction is coming true.

[The Xl]

Bankers don't own the country.

Johnson proclaimed that his civil rights act would have them *iggar* supporting the Democrats for 100 years. Well, his prediction is coming true.

Sure they do. See the bailouts, the FED, fractional reserve banking, who they own and who does their bidding.

Johnson was a POS who takes a comfortable second in my book.

[Mister D]

Bankers don't own the country.

Johnson proclaimed that his civil rights act would have them *iggar* supporting the Democrats for 100 years. Well, his prediction is coming true.

Yes, they do. You live in a plutocracy.

[The Xl]

A lot of Lincoln haters.

He was a great man and president.

Well, you're someone who supports war for oil, so it's not surprising that you'd be a mark for Lincoln.

[Spectre]

Well, you're someone who supports war for oil, so it's not surprising that you'd be a mark for Lincoln.

I really hope you realize that hatred of Lincoln is an EXTREME fringe eccentricity, right?:laugh:

[The Xl]

I really hope you realize that hatred of Lincoln is an EXTREME fringe eccentricity, right?:laugh:

This isn't a popularity contest here.

[Peter1469]

Bankers own the country to the extent that they need to.

They certainly don't care about most mundane governance issues.

[Bob]

Really, every President since Kennedy has been pretty fucking bad.

I'm not reading through all this shit, but I'm sure Democrats picked Bush squared or Reagan, and Republicans picked Obama.

The worst President ever is probably Wilson, followed by Lyndon Johnson

Kennedy was not worth a shit. I voted for him and supported that lady loving whore monger president.

But to name his actual accomplishments takes a stamp sized piece of paper.

[The Xl]

Bankers own the country to the extent that they need to.

They certainly don't care about most mundane governance issues.

Right, they let the Repubricrats argue about gay marriage and the death penalty all day, they don't give a fuck about that.

[Green Arrow]

I really hope you realize that hatred of Lincoln is an EXTREME fringe eccentricity, right?:laugh:

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20130829150535/epicrapbattlesofhistory/images/2/2c/Don't_care.gif

[Green Arrow]

Kennedy was not worth a shit. I voted for him and supported that lady loving whore monger president.

But to name his actual accomplishments takes a stamp sized piece of paper.

Funny, I named his accomplishments, and it would have taken several stamps.

[Mister D]

I really hope you realize that hatred of Lincoln is an EXTREME fringe eccentricity, right?:laugh:

The Lincoln of nationalist myth was a great man. Lincoln the tool of Northern bankers and industrialists not so much. I don't hate the man so much as I lament the decline of the south. A sad story of quantity over quality. There was a time when the ideal or quintessential American type wasn't a businessman or entrepreneur.

[The Xl]

Kennedy was not worth a shit. I voted for him and supported that lady loving whore monger president.

But to name his actual accomplishments takes a stamp sized piece of paper.

Didn't sign on to Operation Northwoods and executive order 11110. More than anyone after him can say.

That got his ass clapped though. He was the last President to govern for the people and rebel against the power structure.

[The Xl]

The Lincoln of nationalist myth was a great man. Lincoln the tool of Northern bankers and industrialists not so much. I don't hate the man so much as I lament the decline of the south. A sad story of quantity over quality. There was a time when the ideal or quintessential American type wasn't a businessman or entrepreneur.

That he cared about and wanted to free blacks is also bullshit that is commonly pushed.

[Mister D]

That he cared about and wanted to free blacks is also bullshit that is commonly pushed.

Yes, his racial views would shock a latter day progressive.

[Spectre]

The Lincoln of nationalist myth was a great man. Lincoln the tool of Northern bankers and industrialists not so much. I don't hate the man so much as I lament the decline of the south. A sad story of quantity over quality. There was a time when the ideal or quintessential American type wasn't a businessman or entrepreneur.

There were aspects of the traditional South that were extremely admirable, and should have been preserved, but it also had a dark side, and its dark side was...its black side.

[Mister D]

There were aspects of the traditional South that were extremely admirable, and should have been preserved, but it also had a dark side, and its dark side was...its black side.

no pun intended! :laugh:

Yes, the south had much to admire and much to reject.

[Bob]

Bankers own the country to the extent that they need to.

They certainly don't care about most mundane governance issues.
Peter1469 ... though I am not a Bank, I have used plenty of Banks. Matter of fact I have remained at the same Bank since it was Great Western.

The public in general loves to act like they understand banks. Banks are easy to beat up on since they do not defend themselves very often.

Banks vary. Some play a role with the Federal Reserve. Money is another thing not clearly understood. Some don't realize that the cash at banks is only 20 percent of the money. Thus Banks can't run much of anything.

[The Xl]

@Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) ... though I am not a Bank, I have used plenty of Banks. Matter of fact I have remained at the same Bank since it was Great Western.

The public in general loves to act like they understand banks. Banks are easy to beat up on since they do not defend themselves very often.

Banks vary. Some play a role with the Federal Reserve. Money is another thing not clearly understood. Some don't realize that the cash at banks is only 20 percent of the money. Thus Banks can't run much of anything.

Fractional reserve banking itself is fraudulent and counterfeit. That's not even getting into the Fed and other shit.

They run the country, buddy. Look at the system itself. Look at the bailouts. Look at the donors next to Obama and Romneys name.

[zelmo1234]

Well, you're someone who supports war for oil, so it's not surprising that you'd be a mark for Lincoln.

If it was a war for oil? Where it the oil? And why am I still paying nearly $4 a gallon!

You don't make promises to people with that much power and then go back on your word. The Kennedy family found that out? But that is not saying that the war was not foolish!


what is happening now is even worse

[The Xl]

If it was a war for oil? Where it the oil? And why am I still paying nearly $4 a gallon!

You don't make promises to people with that much power and then go back on your word. The Kennedy family found that out? But that is not saying that the war was not foolish!


what is happening now is even worse

Yep, Kennedy deceived the power structure resulting in a ridiculous theory and his brain matter splattered all over the place.

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=654836#post654836)
Kennedy was not worth a shit. I voted for him and supported that lady loving whore monger president.

But to name his actual accomplishments takes a stamp sized piece of paper.



Didn't sign on to Operation Northwoods and executive order 11110. More than anyone after him can say.

That got his ass clapped though. He was the last President to govern for the people and rebel against the power structure.

I do not believe any president before him or after him would have signed on for Operation Northwoods. I don't believe he earns marks for that. Were he to have agreed, then he would get bad marks. Sort of like you told me you and I can rob a bank. I say no. I get no high marks for refusing to do an illegal act.

Executive order 11110 only handed authority to Treasury to print then legal Silver Certificates.

What is special for him turning it over to Treasury?

i said he was not worth a shit. This does not mean that had he lived, he would not have been an awesome president. It may sound as if I show him disrespect but his time in office was very short.

[Spectre]

Paranoid conspiracy ravings about 'da beeg banks!'--run by Jews, Masons, Illuninati, the Bilderburgers, whatever--is a running gag among the crazies since at least the Andrew Jackson administration.

[The Xl]

I do not believe any president before him or after him would have signed on for Operation Northwoods. I don't believe he earns marks for that. Were he to have agreed, then he would get bad marks. Sort of like you told me you and I can rob a bank. I say no. I get no high marks for refusing to do an illegal act.

Executive order 11110 only handed authority to Treasury to print then legal Silver Certificates.

What is special for him turning it over to Treasury?

i said he was not worth a shit. This does not mean that had he lived, he would not have been an awesome president. It may sound as if I show him disrespect but his time in office was very short.

How do you know that? The fact that Northwoods even got to his desk shows you how fucked up the government is.

Executive order 11110 would have stopped the Feds practice of loaning money to the gov at interest. That will get you clapped.

[The Xl]

Paranoid conspiracy ravings about 'da beeg banks!'--run by Jews, Masons, Illuninati, the Bilderburgers, whatever--is a running gag among the crazies since at least the Andrew Jackson administration.

You know, mudding the water in an attempt to discredit is poor debating form, and really, is seen for what it is by anyone with half a brain.

You can type irrelevant things in an attempt to discredit, but the fact remains, that the banking institution has the most power in the country, and that is supported by facts.

[zelmo1234]

Paranoid conspiracy ravings about 'da beeg banks!'--run by Jews, Masons, Illuninati, the Bilderburgers, whatever--is a running gag among the crazies since at least the Andrew Jackson administration.

Yes the Free Mason should not be on the list we are totally harmless

[Spectre]

You know, mudding the water in an attempt to discredit poor debating form, and really, is seen for what it is by anyone with half a brain.

You can type irrelevant things in an attempt to discredit, but the fact remains, that the banking institution has the most power in the country, and that is supported by facts.

This is really old, old hat, it's not worth the effort any longer. People who don't read much latch on to conspiracy theories as a way of accounting for the world without engaging their brains very deeply. You've got to move on, Mr. Northwoods.:laugh:

[zelmo1234]

You know, mudding the water in an attempt to discredit is poor debating form, and really, is seen for what it is by anyone with half a brain.

You can type irrelevant things in an attempt to discredit, but the fact remains, that the banking institution has the most power in the country, and that is supported by facts.

I don't know if I would say the most power, That I believe resides with the Mega corporation! But they have a lot of say in who wins and who looses, however they tend to panic when you no longer need them

[Peter1469]

Maybe I will find some time to fill you in sometime soon.


@Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10) ... though I am not a Bank, I have used plenty of Banks. Matter of fact I have remained at the same Bank since it was Great Western.

The public in general loves to act like they understand banks. Banks are easy to beat up on since they do not defend themselves very often.

Banks vary. Some play a role with the Federal Reserve. Money is another thing not clearly understood. Some don't realize that the cash at banks is only 20 percent of the money. Thus Banks can't run much of anything.

[The Xl]

This is really old, old hat, it's not worth the effort any longer. People who don't read much latch on to conspiracy theories as a way of accounting for the world without engaging their brains very deeply. You've got to move on, Mr. Northwoods.:laugh:

Any conspiracy I've ever cited was declassified and out in the open.

You have no line of attack other than to yell "Illuminati!" or "conspiracy!" You're over-matched here, as you always are.

[Ransom]

Any conspiracy I've ever cited was declassified and out in the open.

You have no line of attack other than to yell "Illuminati!" or "conspiracy!" You're over-matched here, as you always are.

Overmatched? In this cesspool of amateurism? Please.

[The Xl]

Overmatched? In this cesspool of amateurism? Please.

Truth be told, I would have walked right through the likes of you and Spectre 10 years ago when I was 15. Now it isn't even fair.

[Green Arrow]

Paranoid conspiracy ravings about 'da beeg banks!'--run by Jews, Masons, Illuninati, the Bilderburgers, whatever--is a running gag among the crazies since at least the Andrew Jackson administration.

Your answer to this question will determine whether you are willfully ignorant or unintentionally ignorant.

Do you AT LEAST acknowledge the existence of the Bilderberg Group?

[Spectre]

Your answer to this question will determine whether you are willfully ignorant or unintentionally ignorant.

Do you AT LEAST acknowledge the existence of the Bilderberg Group?

Of course! They had a meeting just recently.

[Ransom]

Truth be told, I would have walked right through the likes of you and Spectre 10 years ago when I was 15. Now it isn't even fair.

I don't know you so I wouldn't notice if you walked through, however if you paused your game long enough to post on this site you'd be exposed for the non-homework doing weak debater you are and sheared pink. Next.

[The Xl]

I don't know you so I wouldn't notice if you walked through, however if you paused your game long enough to post on this site you'd be exposed for the non-homework doing weak debater you are and sheared pink. Next.

Got anything to post besides incoherent nonsense?

[Green Arrow]

Of course! They had a meeting just recently.

Good, then it's just willful.

[Spectre]

Good, then it's just willful.

So you believe they're Masters of the Universe that are the puppet masters of...something or other?

[Green Arrow]

So you believe they're Masters of the Universe that are the puppet masters of...something or other?

Of course not.

[Ransom]

Got anything to post besides incoherent nonsense?

Yes. I personally don't think you'd know a worst President in US history if he bit you, Xl.

[Bob]

There were union troops in Fort Sumter, they were under siege by the south, the south left the union but the fort was a union fort, they had no obligation to abandon the fort!

Lincoln did not abandon the fort he tried to resupply the fort, and had actually made contact saying that it was in fact a supply shipment.

The fort was fired upon by the Confederate Armies.

Try as you might to change history the first shots of the civil war were in fact fired by the south, not the north!

So now what!

And Yes Jefferson did say that the people have the right to throw of unjust governments, but they knew when they sent the declaration to England that if they did not win the revolution they would be hung!

So the difference between a revolution and an uprising, is weather or not you win! Had the South won the war, there would be the confederate states and the United States, and who knows maybe still slavery?

But there also would be very large points of German Speaking countries, and Very large parts of Japanese speaking countries. And maybe not any states at all!

Lincoln was molded more by events than agenda. Remember back then it was not Jan, but March that presidents took office! The war started the next month, and he proceeded to loose for more than 2 years

Have you ever did an inventory of forts the Union abandoned?

All but 3 were abandoned.

The Union did consent since they were not at war.

The Union consented by many abandonments.

The siege as you call it, was the shots fired. Prior to that, Anderson was talked to and informed of his predicament. Some of you like magic accord to Lincoln the right to forts in what was once the United States. As I said, the Feds did a lot of abandoning, even stores of food. To S. Carolina, Abe had no right to keep an enemy fort. No more than Washington would tolerate England keeping English fortifications in NY State. Washington would have run them off. Just the way S. Carolina did.

Lets see where we agree.

1. Abe sent ships to resupply. Agree
2. The Union had active duty troops that moved from one fort to Ft. Sumpter since the Fort was so well built, it could handle cannon fire from the shores of S. Carolina. Though battered, the fort still preserved the safety of all troops. They heard a lot of noise for sure. Felt shots hit the fort. But they were not harmed.

If we agree, that checks that off.
3. Major Anderson ended up abandoning the Fort. We must agree on that if you know the history of that event.

4. We agree about most things. Did the South fire at an illegal fort? We both know they hit the fort. What was the actual problem? Were Union troops killed or hurt?

Turns out the correct answer is they were not harmed.

Abes invasion killed not only union troops but confederates.

Just as G. Washington believed in his cause and saw England as illegal, this is the South's position. They felt like they founded a new system where their rights were not only upheld but respected.

Abe had no respect for the South. They realized it when he sent ships of food.

Say I came to your house and shot at your shed. Would that mean one declared war? I don't know. Maybe shots do mean that. But the fort had a lot of warning. So, if I shot your shed and gave you 24 hours notice, I don't see how that is war. If I shot you, your family can call it war.

You want a project that I took on? Study that fort and events prior to the shots fired.

Find out what Cannons the South had. Then figure the distance from the cannons to the fort. Then figure out how thick the fort walls were or are since it is reconstructed.

The range of the Cannons the South had were pathetic. They had a very short range. They did not have today's artillery. Today's artillery would end the life of that fort.

Yes, your perspective on who wins matters is true. But we adore Washington when he defied the lawful governemtn Somehow we can't connect Washington to Jefferson Davis who with vast support defended his people.

Who wins means the winner calls the shots. The South did not get into war to force the Union to submit and be taken over. They got into the war when Abe the Outlaw invaded VA.

Abe was supposed to, by law, get the counsel and consent of Congress. Yet even there he failed. He started calling troops well before getting consent. He backed his congress into a corner.

[Bob]

Fractional reserve banking itself is fraudulent and counterfeit. That's not even getting into the Fed and other shit.

They run the country, buddy. Look at the system itself. Look at the bailouts. Look at the donors next to Obama and Romneys name.

Solve my problem with proof. Thanks.

I have studied banking since ... oh say, 1967.

[Bob]

Your answer to this question will determine whether you are willfully ignorant or unintentionally ignorant.

Do you AT LEAST acknowledge the existence of the Bilderberg Group?

I was discussing them when you were 5. Don't you remember?

[Bob]

Maybe I will find some time to fill you in sometime soon.

When it comes to Banks, thanks a lot Peter1469. I gladly want to be filled in.

[Bob]

Yes, they do. You live in a plutocracy.

Some person stated as FACT ... that Banks own or run the country.

FACT .... see that part?

And I have had 3 posters claim the same thing.

All I want from the 3 of you is just PROOF.

Is this shit you got from some book?

Maybe it can be definitions, such as what do you believe OWN or RUN means?

Here is a preliminary gist of my argument.

Banks hold the public's personal property that we call cash.

Since we handed them CASH, did we own everything prior to handing them CASH?

In what way do BANKS hold title to the country? What CEO at what Bank do you believe bosses the various parts of Government around?

I know Banks don't boss me. Do you believe they boss you around?

Explain please.

[Mr. Freeze]

Paranoid conspiracy ravings about 'da beeg banks!'--run by Jews, Masons, Illuninati, the Bilderburgers, whatever--is a running gag among the crazies since at least the Andrew Jackson administration.

The Bilderberg Group has, or has had for many years, their "mission statement" on their website. It's not as if they are hiding their intentions. Why should they have to? No one cares. Conspiracy implies some sort of clandestine or Byzantine arrangement. Theirs is in the open.

[Mr. Freeze]

Solve my problem with proof. Thanks.

I have studied banking since ... oh say, 1967.

The Federal Reserve system is a huge scam, and if you have no problem with that you can make money off of it if you have enough to move.

[Spectre]

Some person stated as FACT ... that Banks own or run the country.

FACT .... see that part?

And I have had 3 posters claim the same thing.

All I want from the 3 of you is just PROOF.

Is this shit you got from some book?

Maybe it can be definitions, such as what do you believe OWN or RUN means?

Here is a preliminary gist of my argument.

Banks hold the public's personal property that we call cash.

Since we handed them CASH, did we own everything prior to handing them CASH?

In what way do BANKS hold title to the country? What CEO at what Bank do you believe bosses the various parts of Government around?

I know Banks don't boss me. Do you believe they boss you around?

Explain please.

Nutbars like XI don't NEED reasons, it just 'feels' right.

[Mr. Freeze]

I think most people are unaware of how the Federal Reserve works, another reason to miss Amazon Tania.

[Mr. Freeze]

Nutbars like XI don't NEED reasons, it just 'feels' right.

Did you seriously just talk about "feeling right" after Bob's emotional outburst? Without irony?

[Spectre]

The Federal Reserve looms VERY LARGE in the fringe, shadowy world of conspiracy loons, there's almost as thriving a cottage industry on this as there is on 911 'Trooferism'.

[Mr. Freeze]

The Federal Reserve looms VERY LARGE in the fringe, shadowy world of conspiracy loons, there's almost as thriving a cottage industry on this as there is on 911 'Trooferism'.

Seriously, you people should take some actual college courses in the Federal Reserve system before you praise it. I also don't care about "troofers" and "ooooh conspiracy people". Truth is truth regardless of who tells it.

The system is very much like plate jugglers. If you're good you can keep them all in motion for a very long time. Make too many mistakes and all the plates crash. I know how to make money off of it, so does Tania obviously, but that doesn't mean I don't see if for what it is. I'm playing a gambling game with it because right now I can still make money off of currency but I also see money just out of reach ready to drop. Trillions...it won't be pretty.

So you can make fun of conspiracy loons or whatever you think they are, but they're right and you are wrong on this one.

[Spectre]

Seriously, you people should take some actual college courses in the Federal Reserve system before you praise it. I also don't care about "troofers" and "ooooh conspiracy people". Truth is truth regardless of who tells it.

The system is very much like plate jugglers. If you're good you can keep them all in motion for a very long time. Make too many mistakes and all the plates crash. I know how to make money off of it, so does Tania obviously, but that doesn't mean I don't see if for what it is. I'm playing a gambling game with it because right now I can still make money off of currency but I also see money just out of reach ready to drop. Trillions...it won't be pretty.

So you can make fun of conspiracy loons or whatever you think they are, but they're right and you are wrong on this one.

Link me to a few reputable articles in reputable journals by leading economists making the case, I'll reconsider my position if there is a consensus among economists that the Fed should go.

[Spectre]

Conspiracy, conspiracy everywhere!

http://www.danielpipes.org/books/conspiracychap.php

Robertson offers two very different scenarios for the New World Order, one financial, the other moral. In the first, he foresees a European seizure of American wealth via a world currency and a single global bank. The conspirator's identity is Money Power; its motivation is a mixture of greed and a preference for the simplicity of dictatorship over the messiness of democracy. As early as 1865, European bankers arranged for Abraham Lincoln's murder to prevent him from issuing interest-free currency, which would have broken their hold over the U.S. money supply. In 1912, to maintain that hold, the banking interests engineered a three-way race for the presidency, permitting Woodrow Wilson to win. A year later Wilson and his aide Colonel Edward House institutionalized the Money Power by getting the Sixteenth Amendment passed, permitting Congress to collect an income tax, and establishing the Federal Reserve Board. These two developments are closely connected, for the central bank relies on the income tax to advance an "international financial assault on the freedom and integrity of America."

[Mr. Freeze]

Link me to a few reputable articles in reputable journals by leading economists making the case, I'll reconsider my position if there is a consensus among economists that the Fed should go.

If you don't understand the system the articles won't help. I said you should understand how it works, it might also help you to formulate your own opinion instead of regurgitating Keynesian and Jekyll Island fan fiction.

Truthfully, I don't care what it does right now. I'm in gambling mode and doing well. Not all my eggs are in one financial basket and I'm also prepared for collapse if those trillions drop.

I am a financial agnostic. I don't have faith in any system, only myself.

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by The Xl http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=654892#post654892)
You know, mudding the water in an attempt to discredit is poor debating form, and really, is seen for what it is by anyone with half a brain.

You can type irrelevant things in an attempt to discredit, but the fact remains, that the banking institution has the most power in the country, and that is supported by facts.


I don't know if I would say the most power, That I believe resides with the Mega corporation! But they have a lot of say in who wins and who looses, however they tend to panic when you no longer need them

Are posters merely looking for scapegoats?

Man, it is the Bank ... no it is the mega corporation ... everybody but the Obama government.

WOW. I sure would love some proof it is the Banks or corporations and not Obama and his motley crew.

[Mr. Freeze]

Conspiracy, conspiracy everywhere!

http://www.danielpipes.org/books/conspiracychap.php

Robertson offers two very different scenarios for the New World Order, one financial, the other moral. In the first, he foresees a European seizure of American wealth via a world currency and a single global bank. The conspirator's identity is Money Power; its motivation is a mixture of greed and a preference for the simplicity of dictatorship over the messiness of democracy. As early as 1865, European bankers arranged for Abraham Lincoln's murder to prevent him from issuing interest-free currency, which would have broken their hold over the U.S. money supply. In 1912, to maintain that hold, the banking interests engineered a three-way race for the presidency, permitting Woodrow Wilson to win. A year later Wilson and his aide Colonel Edward House institutionalized the Money Power by getting the Sixteenth Amendment passed, permitting Congress to collect an income tax, and establishing the Federal Reserve Board. These two developments are closely connected, for the central bank relies on the income tax to advance an "international financial assault on the freedom and integrity of America."

I realize this is a heavy concept for you to take but labeling something "conspiracy" creates Pavlovian response that actually obscures truth and is poor logic. If you are correct, pure debate and logical reasoning will steer you through to victory. I didn't read any of that past the first sentence once I realized it was more of your usual.

It just makes people argue with you even if they don't believe the other side because you're such a statist fangurl.

I have to go smoke pot and eat shrooms or whatever it is you think we do in our spare time.

[Spectre]

If you don't understand the system the articles won't help. I said you should understand how it works, it might also help you to formulate your own opinion instead of regurgitating Keynesian and Jekyll Island fan fiction.

Truthfully, I don't care what it does right now. I'm in gambling mode and doing well. Not all my eggs are in one financial basket and I'm also prepared for collapse if those trillions drop.

I am a financial agnostic. I don't have faith in any system, only myself.
For me to formulate my own opinion on this matter would be as useful as my formulating my own opinion on string theory or the the best treatments for melanoma: I'm not an authority on this and neither are you (excuse me for not paying sufficient respect to your economics course here). We must BOTH rely on the conclusions of experts here, we have no choice.

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=654836#post654836)
Kennedy was not worth a shit. I voted for him and supported that lady loving whore monger president.

But to name his actual accomplishments takes a stamp sized piece of paper.


Funny, I named his accomplishments, and it would have taken several stamps.

Do yourself a favor.

Next time you pull this, cite the post. Cut and paste also works well.

So many posts are flowing I have not seen your *proof*

I have to now hunt down your *proof* You could have even added the mention.
Green Arrow

[Spectre]

If it's not a conspiracy, it is factual or at the very least plausible. That's the difference.

Please try to wean yourself from the Alex Jones websites.

You must be an adult about these matters.

[Bob]

The Bilderberg Group has, or has had for many years, their "mission statement" on their website. It's not as if they are hiding their intentions. Why should they have to? No one cares. Conspiracy implies some sort of clandestine or Byzantine arrangement. Theirs is in the open.

Yup

http://www.bilderbergmeetings.org/index.php

[Bob]

Did you seriously just talk about "feeling right" after Bob's emotional outburst? Without irony?

What outburst???? Mr. Freeze Do you understand how to use the mentions? Nice to get a heads up when my name is used.

[Green Arrow]

Do yourself a favor.

Next time you pull this, cite the post. Cut and paste also works well.

So many posts are flowing I have not seen your *proof*

I have to now hunt down your *proof* You could have even added the mention.
@Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868)

You commented on the post.

[Green Arrow]

Some person stated as FACT ... that Banks own or run the country.

FACT .... see that part?

And I have had 3 posters claim the same thing.

All I want from the 3 of you is just PROOF.

Is this shit you got from some book?

Maybe it can be definitions, such as what do you believe OWN or RUN means?

Here is a preliminary gist of my argument.

Banks hold the public's personal property that we call cash.

Since we handed them CASH, did we own everything prior to handing them CASH?

In what way do BANKS hold title to the country? What CEO at what Bank do you believe bosses the various parts of Government around?

I know Banks don't boss me. Do you believe they boss you around?

Explain please.

Why would I need proof? I once worked for the Federal Reserve and saw everything with my own eyes.

[Bob]

Seriously, you people should take some actual college courses in the Federal Reserve system before you praise it. I also don't care about "troofers" and "ooooh conspiracy people". Truth is truth regardless of who tells it.

The system is very much like plate jugglers. If you're good you can keep them all in motion for a very long time. Make too many mistakes and all the plates crash. I know how to make money off of it, so does Tania obviously, but that doesn't mean I don't see if for what it is. I'm playing a gambling game with it because right now I can still make money off of currency but I also see money just out of reach ready to drop. Trillions...it won't be pretty.

So you can make fun of conspiracy loons or whatever you think they are, but they're right and you are wrong on this one.

Holy cow. Now that is an outburst.
Mr. Freeze

[Spectre]

Why would I need proof? I once worked for the Federal Reserve and saw everything with my own eyes.

Dude, you're 22!!:laugh:

What did you do, fix their coffee machines?!

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=655027#post655027)
Some person stated as FACT ... that Banks own or run the country.

FACT .... see that part?

And I have had 3 posters claim the same thing.

All I want from the 3 of you is just PROOF.

Is this shit you got from some book?

Maybe it can be definitions, such as what do you believe OWN or RUN means?

Here is a preliminary gist of my argument.

Banks hold the public's personal property that we call cash.

Since we handed them CASH, did we own everything prior to handing them CASH?

In what way do BANKS hold title to the country? What CEO at what Bank do you believe bosses the various parts of Government around?

I know Banks don't boss me. Do you believe they boss you around?

Explain please.


Why would I need proof? I once worked for the Federal Reserve and saw everything with my own eyes.

Well then Mr @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868), surely you can prove this.

What would you love to tell us all?

I am all eyes.

Note to Bob Was he under the impression I was discussing him? Hell if I know.

[Bob]

You commented on the post.

Well shit, that sure tells me the post number.

And you wonder why you have problems with me and zelmo1234?

[Bob]

The Federal Reserve looms VERY LARGE in the fringe, shadowy world of conspiracy loons, there's almost as thriving a cottage industry on this as there is on 911 'Trooferism'.

Do you think had they studied this in college it might help them?

My first exposure to the duty of the Federal reserve had to be in the late 60s. By the time I entered Real Estate it was part of the state required course. Then in My law courses, it comes up again. Then in Business/Contract law up it bobs again. That was 1972.

Christ, I have devoted hours and hours studying the Federal Reserve.

I would gladly read any proof those who claim to be experts have to offer. Not too much to ask for.

[Spectre]

Do you think had they studied this in college it might help them?

My first exposure to the duty of the Federal reserve had to be in the late 60s. By the time I entered Real Estate it was part of the state required course. Then in My law courses, it comes up again. Then in Business/Contract law up it bobs again. That was 1972.

Christ, I have devoted hours and hours studying the Federal Reserve.

I would gladly read any proof those who claim to be experts have to offer. Not too much to ask for.

Oh, no! You see, from the point of view of people like Green Arrow and Mr. Freeze, you've been brainwashed by 'The Man'!

THEY are not fooled! THEY know the REAL truth!

THEY listen to Alex Jones and visit that Ron Paul website!:biglaugh:

[Refugee]

I’m more with Freeze on this one. The nearest I can find to an explanation is this ten minute read on how the banking system started and how it practically owns and rules our lives. It’s well worth a read even though it concentrates on the link between banks and wars, but it’s interesting to see how it all fits together.

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/allwarsarebankerwars.php (http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/allwarsarebankerwars.php)

7975

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=655027#post655027)
Some person stated as FACT ... that Banks own or run the country.

FACT .... see that part?

And I have had 3 posters claim the same thing.

All I want from the 3 of you is just PROOF.

Is this shit you got from some book?

Maybe it can be definitions, such as what do you believe OWN or RUN means?

Here is a preliminary gist of my argument.

Banks hold the public's personal property that we call cash.

Since we handed them CASH, did we own everything prior to handing them CASH?

In what way do BANKS hold title to the country? What CEO at what Bank do you believe bosses the various parts of Government around?

I know Banks don't boss me. Do you believe they boss you around?

Explain please.



Nutbars like XI don't NEED reasons, it just 'feels' right.

I think I have him correct as being 25. I had no clue about the Feds at his age.But I sure did not think some OZ behind a curtain made our life harder. They believe the Fed Reserve is evil. That they fuck our lives up.

At his age, I might have said something equally dumb. I was a Democrat and sure made a mess for myself on things like this.

I think of him as young but not a nutbar.

[Spectre]

I think I have him correct as being 25. I had no clue about the Feds at his age.But I sure did not think some OZ behind a curtain made our life harder. They believe the Fed Reserve is evil. That they fuck our lives up.

At his age, I might have said something equally dumb. I was a Democrat and sure made a mess for myself on things like this.

I think of him as young but not a nutbar.

All these anarchist types on this forum are pups, Bob...only one or two are thirtyish.

[Bob]

Refugee
I read your comments as to wars.

Government has always sucked Banks dry in wars. But they are victims.

[Bob]

@Spectre All these anarchist types on this forum are pups, Bob...only one or two are thirtyish.

I remember being a Democrat at that age.

Actually, I have no beef with anarchists. I believe they simply are able to self govern and don't mind telling us they can. Bill and I used to debate and by far ... no contest . Bill was the best presenter of Anarchy I ever encountered. He is able to run circles around our pups. Honestly, read his book.

http://www.amazon.com/Theres-Government-Like-nonvoters-manifesto/dp/1553695739


5.0 out of 5 stars Crashing the party, October 30, 2002
By
Tim Swanson (http://www.amazon.com/gp/pdp/profile/ADOWIB79USH49/ref=cm_cr_pr_pdp) (Central Texas) - See all my reviews (http://www.amazon.com/gp/cdp/member-reviews/ADOWIB79USH49/ref=cm_cr_pr_auth_rev?ie=UTF8&sort_by=MostRecentReview)



This review is from: There's No Government Like NO Government: the nonvoter's manifesto (Paperback)
Actually, Jackney Sneeb didn't just crash the party; he exposed the hosts for what they were: crooks, cons and thieves.
In psychology there is a term referred to as `conditioning' and along with it `reinforcement.' A classic example of mental conditioning is the (in)famous experiment by Pavlov's Dogs. Briefly, in 1904 Dr. Ivan Pavlov trained a group of dogs to associate ringing of a bell with food so they would start salivating.
Contemporaneously, when words such as `abortion,' `taxation,' `democracy,' or `rights' are used, a trigger within the minds of many individuals turns on (or off) creating a ruckus of brow-beating, chest thumpers... similar to Guerilla's in the jungle.
This continuous training, indoctrination and brainwashing of unsuspecting individuals is continually done on a daily basis throughout the world. As he should, Mr. Sneeb takes the reader from the very basic concept of this delusion, this mindset of authoritarianism and meticulously breaks it apart into smaller digestible pieces.
I should warn readers; this is not a hunky dory feel-warm and fuzzy book about a particular realpolitik. No, what Mr. Sneeb does is show the phony belief that the `authority' by which statism, government and coercive force presume to rule does not exist.
Taking no prisoners he is quite candid with the reader, treating the audience as a logical and rational creature. Yet, he does not insult their intelligent by suggesting how as a mortal, he is authorized to initiate force against you or anyone else.
Outrageous, dynamic, bold and even heroic; Mr. Sneeb truly fights for the little man: the individual human fighting for his life against the powers that be.
When this book catches hold of the American psyche (or anyone for that matter), it threatens to erode the very foundations of the world's last remaining superpower.
Some poignant quotes from the book (p. 9&10):
"So, from the authoritarian's conditioned response we see in his philosophy the absurd result that people who do the right thing should be locked up, and people doing the wrong thing should run free -- which is why that so often happens in politics."
"If the [money] is taken out of the taxes you paid without raising your taxes, then the general revenues will be [money] light. The difference must be made up somewhere, and it is: the revenue must come from those who checked "No," obviously. So, in a cynical way the lefties are using the IRS to steal money from the righties. If you don't want [money]of your money to pay for the president's election campaign, you must check "Yes.""

[Green Arrow]

Well then Mr @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868), surely you can prove this.

What would you love to tell us all?

I am all eyes.

Note to Bob Was he under the impression I was discussing him? Hell if I know.

Oh, so many things. Evil plots, demonic orgies. It's quite the place. You know Ben Bernanke? He had a thing for monkeys. And not as pets, if you know what I mean.

[Green Arrow]

Well shit, that sure tells me the post number.

And you wonder why you have problems with me and @zelmo1234 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=588)?

I don't have a problem with either of you. You take this stuff way too personally.

[Spectre]

I don't have a problem with either of you. You take this stuff way too personally.

That's true, I really never laugh so much as when reading some of the dead-serious posts here from some of the solemn and humorless libertarians here.

[Green Arrow]

That's true, I really never laugh so much as when reading some of the dead-serious posts here from some of the solemn and humorless libertarians here.

Yeah, I find the fact that you're a walking contradiction strutting around like a peacock when you're really a dodo pretty funny too.

[Spectre]

Yeah, I find the fact that you're a walking contradiction strutting around like a peacock when you're really a dodo pretty funny too.

Only an under-25 baby would seek consistency in these matters. Trust me, your life will be MUCH richer and more interesting if you don't, and you will bore far fewer people than you do now.

[Green Arrow]

Only an under-25 baby would seek consistency in these matters. Trust me, your life will be MUCH richer and more interesting if you don't, and you will bore far fewer people than you do now.

How do you bore fewer than zero?

[Spectre]

And the Dodo was a noble and beautiful bird, whose loss is to be regretted, as mine would be:laugh::

http://www.wordinfo.info/words/images/Dodo-bird.gif (http://www.google.ca/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&docid=wEUr5kZJDUahrM&tbnid=iZrSb53bovxl0M:&ved=0CAUQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwordinfo.info%2Funit%2F3572%2Fip% 3A4%2Fil%3AD&ei=NhyhU--PHs-ayATxyIKIDw&bvm=bv.69137298,d.aWw&psig=AFQjCNGw6Rn4plxeSqJn0PaNFy6sxk6QJw&ust=1403153827621794)

[Spectre]

How do you bore fewer than zero?

Somehow, you'll manage to find a way....

[Green Arrow]

Somehow, you'll manage to find a way....

Doubt it. I live a very full, rich life, and I've never met a person that didn't end up liking me and becoming a close friend.

[Spectre]

Doubt it. I live a very full, rich life, and I've never met a person that didn't end up liking me and becoming a close friend.
Oh, I can tell, you made a shitload of friends over at TPF.:smiley:

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=655092#post655092)
Well shit, that sure tells me the post number.

And you wonder why you have problems with me and @zelmo1234 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=588)?



I don't have a problem with either of you. You take this stuff way too personally.

Do we? Is that why you refuse to give me the post you claim I replied to?

I try to take each poster serious. Try it some time.

[Bob]

Oh, so many things. Evil plots, demonic orgies. It's quite the place. You know Ben Bernanke? He had a thing for monkeys. And not as pets, if you know what I mean.

Tie that to economics then. Green Arrow

[Refugee]

And the Dodo was a noble and beautiful bird, whose loss is to be regretted, as mine would be:laugh::



Spectre? I believe he’s quite popular in America. I know someone who said they got his autograph once and he always attracts crowds. I think this was one of his lectures on, “How to survive in an equal world without socialist welfare”; it followed the one after, “If you can’t stand on your own two feet, get yourself a pair of crutches and don’t expect me to pay for them.”

7978

GA is a bit more of an acquired taste. You’ve got to sort of tune in to your inner self Dude and like flow with the cosmic experience, or whatever. GAism is better taken in small does and some have even likened it to the effects of substance misuse. Here’s a picture of Obama ‘tuning in’ at a GA meeting. I think this particular meditation focused on, “What would happen if taxpayers were allowed to keep the money they earned?” The one after, “Is food stamp accumulation capitalism?”

7979 7980

:smiley_ROFLMAO:

[Green Arrow]

Oh, I can tell, you made a shitload of friends over at TPF.:smiley:

I'm talking about in real, physical life. You know, what actually matters?

[zelmo1234]

First I want to say that I have no issue with Green Arrow! Sure we argue, mostly because he is WRONG! :)

Next a little advice Green use the word Friend a little more tightly, I have mat several people that would call me friend in my life, but have only had 2 friends that I could count on through thick and thin! A friend is a very rare find!

[The Sage of Main Street]

Yes, his racial views would shock a latter day progressive. The Republicans hoped to use the freed slaves as cheap, passive, and grateful union-busting labor. Another reason they provoked the war was to nullify Southern votes against the tariff. The sweat-shoppers made all their profits because tariffs enabled price-gouging. Yet the dumb Rednecks today worship the same kind of people who burned Dixie down.

Hardly any of the Abolitionists supported labor unions, so they had no social conscience. Henry Ward Beecher, whose sister wrote Uncle Tom's Cabin, said about working-class Whites, "Anyone who can't live on bread and water doesn't deserve to live."

Another typical plutocratic reason for the war, which also explains World War I, was to kill off the bravest of the working class and take the fight out of the rest.

Lincoln, with the same attitude as the Dixiecrat LBJ, also allowed the sons of the class he represented to buy their way out of having to fight. Establishing a family tradition, Dubya's ancestor did that and made money off selling supplies to the troops.

[The Sage of Main Street]

For me to formulate my own opinion on this matter would be as useful as my formulating my own opinion on string theory or the the best treatments for melanoma: I'm not an authority on this and neither are you (excuse me for not paying sufficient respect to your economics course here). We must BOTH rely on the conclusions of experts here, we have no choice. Experts are liars for hire. Don't be a sucker and lick their spiked mind-candy.

[The Xl]

Solve my problem with proof. Thanks.

I have studied banking since ... oh say, 1967.

You clearly haven't been studying enough.

The practice of Fractional Reserve Banking is inherently fraudulent. Banks are allowed to create money out of thin air as loans and collect interest on essentially counterfeit money.

[The Xl]

Nutbars like XI don't NEED reasons, it just 'feels' right.

I operate on logic, you operate on feelings. This is apparent when you consider your low intellect and the fact that the large majority of your posts are appeals to emotion, logical fallacies, and baseless character attacks.

[The Xl]

I think I have him correct as being 25. I had no clue about the Feds at his age.But I sure did not think some OZ behind a curtain made our life harder. They believe the Fed Reserve is evil. That they fuck our lives up.

At his age, I might have said something equally dumb. I was a Democrat and sure made a mess for myself on things like this.

I think of him as young but not a nutbar.

Not everyone is the same, and not everyone ages well. I'm more intelligent and informed than you have ever been at the tender age of 25. That's just reality.

[Ransom]

25. Meaning you still qualify for your parent's health insurance

[KC]

Well, Ransom's here. There goes the thread.

7989

[Ransom]

I stand corrected, I'll bid farewell and allow experience and maturity to discuss whatever interests you Cats. Nickelodeon my guess.

[birddog]

B. Hussein Obama is the worst President in the history of our country, bar none! No other President has trampled on the Constitution as he has. Obama is ruining our country here and to the rest of the world.

Anyone who voted for Obama should apologize to the rest of us!:angry:

[Libhater]

Anyone who voted for Obama should apologize to the rest of us!:angry:

And they should honor that embarrassment and apology by deporting themselves out of this country immediately.

[Mainecoons]

As the shit, the lies, the crimes, the failures keep piling up, this guy has become the undisputed #1:

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQr3ndN__IHRLZk0SnXuRgUBZTJVURo3 0TAclpCI3HbYyZPS9cyyQ

[Perianne]

B. Hussein Obama is the worst President in the history of our country, bar none! No other President has trampled on the Constitution as he has. Obama is ruining our country here and to the rest of the world.

Anyone who voted for Obama should apologize to the rest of us!:angry:

Lincoln still holds the worst spot for me, but Obama is right there challenging.

[birddog]

Lincoln still holds the worst spot for me, but Obama is right there challenging.

Lincoln had some good, Obama has none.