My view on Eugene V. Debs

[Bob]

I don't know how well you are versed in Eugene V. Debs.

Debs is known for two major things.

1. Socialist
2. Spoke against the draft and war (per the Government) and the Judge, the famous Oliver Wendell Holmes sentenced him to 10 years in prison.

My belief is the sentence was flat wrong. The law was passed by Congress and agreed to by Democrat Wilson. But Wilson would not have passed the law but for congress crafting it.

The idea the President, whom I do not defend, put Debs into prison is not serious talk.

My complaint against Debs is his positions on private property.

He ran for president 5 times. We all ought to know who a person is that ran so many times.

So what did he teach?

Debs is on record for saying a person that starts a company and becomes rich has no right to own the company. Debs would seize his factory and convert it to big government.

Imagine if you will that all companies were owned by Government. You start a do-nut shop and the Feds come take your business from you.

I am in shock when a person approves such socialism.

For that reason I open this since this is the belief system of a member here who wants me to stop saying his name.

My belief is you took your cash, you took the risk, it turned out well and you are rich. I think that is awesome. Not something to be taken by the Government.

When they can take your liberty for speech (I support Debs here) or take your property you put so much into, you are living the life of tyranny.

One can't simply support free speech and deny the right to private property and be consistent.

From wikipedia

The court's decision[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Debs_v._United_States&action=edit&section=1)]In its ruling on Debs v. United States, the Court examined several statements that Debs had made regarding the war. While he had tempered his speeches in an attempt to comply with the Espionage Act, the Court found he had shown the "intention and effect of obstructing the draft and recruitment for the war." Among other things, the Court cited Debs' praise for those imprisoned for obstructing the draft. In his opinion, Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oliver_Wendell_Holmes,_Jr.) stated that Debs' case was essentially the same as Schenck v. United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schenck_v._United_States) (1919), in which the Court upheld a similar conviction. The Supreme Court decided against Debs, and maintained the power of the Espionage Act. Debs' sentence to ten years imprisonment and loss of citizenship was upheld.
Subsequent developments[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Debs_v._United_States&action=edit&section=2)]Debs went to prison on April 13, 1919. While in prison in Oregon, he ran for president in the 1920 Election for the fifth and final time, despite his disfranchisement. He received 919,799 votes (3.4% of the popular vote),[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debs_v._United_States#cite_note-Bailey_and_Kennedy_1983_xxiv-1) the most ever for a Socialist Party presidential candidate in the U.S. It was slightly more than his 900,672 total in the 1912 election,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debs_v._United_States#cite_note-Bailey_and_Kennedy_1983_xxiv-1) which had equaled six percent of the popular vote. (National women's suffrage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_suffrage) in 1920 greatly increased the total number of votes cast.)
In 1921, Congress largely repealed the Espionage and Sedition Acts. On December 23, 1921 President Warren G. Harding (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_G._Harding)commuted Debs' sentence to time served, effective Christmas Day. He did not issue a pardon. The two met the following day at the White House.

[nathanbforrest45]

Socialist think they will be immune from government confiscation of their earnings. When you take everything from the producers you have to turn to what little the moochers are producing to maintain your power. They don't understand that.

[Bob]

Socialist think they will be immune from government confiscation of their earnings. When you take everything from the producers you have to turn to what little the moochers are producing to maintain your power. They don't understand that.

Amen brother Nathan.

[Green Arrow]

No actual quotes from Debs to support the OP's assertions. How very predictable.

[Spectre]

Any person that is anti-statist has NO business messing around with Behemoth-government advocates like Debs.

The only state he was against was the American democratic capitalist one.

[Codename Section]

The earth is for all the people. That is the demand.
The machinery of production and distribution for all the people. That is the demand.
The collective ownership and control of industry and its democratic management in the interest of all the people. That is the demand.
The elimination of rent, interest, profit and the production of wealth to satisfy the wants of all the people. That is the demand.
Cooperative industry in which all shall work together in harmony as the basis of a new social order, a higher civilization, a real republic. That is the demand.
The end of class struggles and class rule, of master and slave, or ignorance and vice, of poverty and shame, of cruelty and crime -- the birth of freedom, the dawn of Brotherhood, the beginning of MAN. That is the demand.
1903, Speaking before the Western Federation of Miners

[Green Arrow]

Any person that is anti-statist has NO business messing around with Behemoth-government advocates like Debs.

The only state he was against was the American democratic capitalist one.

What's the problem, Spectre? I thought you wanted all of us to give up and join the state?

[Codename Section]

Yep, pretty much a commie.

I have a question why "intellectuals" lump all businesses in with the banksters and industry titans. There have always been people like me who started their own business with their own money and their own labor and then want to relax later in life without the alleged "producers" (who come in later) wanting to steal everything we worked for.

I think that's horseshit. Seize my means of production and get your ass kicked.

[Spectre]

The earth is for all the people. That is the demand.
The machinery of production and distribution for all the people. That is the demand.
The collective ownership and control of industry and its democratic management in the interest of all the people. That is the demand.
The elimination of rent, interest, profit and the production of wealth to satisfy the wants of all the people. That is the demand.
Cooperative industry in which all shall work together in harmony as the basis of a new social order, a higher civilization, a real republic. That is the demand.
The end of class struggles and class rule, of master and slave, or ignorance and vice, of poverty and shame, of cruelty and crime -- the birth of freedom, the dawn of Brotherhood, the beginning of MAN. That is the demand.
1903, Speaking before the Western Federation of Miners
Are you supporting the ideas in that quote?

[Spectre]

Forget it, I see you are not, my mistake.

[Green Arrow]

Yep, pretty much a commie.

I have a question why "intellectuals" lump all businesses in with the banksters and industry titans. There have always been people like me who started their own business with their own money and their own labor and then want to relax later in life without the alleged "producers" (who come in later) wanting to steal everything we worked for.

I think that's horseshit. Seize my means of production and get your ass kicked.

Where did he mention force or seizure? I missed that.

[Bob]

No actual quotes from Debs to support the OP's assertions. How very predictable.

That is the same snotty shit you have pulled all along.

[Spectre]

Debs on the leaders of the new Soviet Union:

From the crown of my head to the soles of my feet I am Bolshevik, and proud of it.

"The Day of the People," The Class Struggle Vol. III No. 1 (February 1919) (http://www.marxists.org/archive/debs/works/1919/daypeople.htm)

[del]

That is the same snotty shit you have pulled all along.

yeah, what an asshole for expecting you to prove a point

hanging is too good for people like that

[Spectre]

Where did he mention force or seizure? I missed that.

Yes, the business class will simply hand over their wealth to the po' out of stricken consciences and a collective fit of insanity.:laugh:

[Mister D]

Debs on the leaders of the new Soviet Union:

From the crown of my head to the soles of my feet I am Bolshevik, and proud of it.

"The Day of the People," The Class Struggle Vol. III No. 1 (February 1919) (http://www.marxists.org/archive/debs/works/1919/daypeople.htm)


Ouch. del No, he just admires people who murder millions of their countrymen. :laugh:

[del]

Ouch. @del (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=770) No, he just admires people who murder millions of their countrymen. :laugh:

because in 1919, stalin had done just that

oh, wait...

[Mister D]

because in 1919, stalin had done just that

oh, wait...

The Bolsheviks sure got to work fast! Nice edit, BTW. Not fast enough though. :wink:

[del]

The Bolsheviks sure got to work fast! Nice edit, BTW. Not fast enough though. :wink:

wtf are you blathering about?

[Spectre]

The Bolsheviks sure got to work fast! Nice edit, BTW. Not fast enough though. :wink:

Lenin got the mass murder machine under way as soon as he achieved power, and ran it zestfully.

Read this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41m0bfP%2BKnL._SL160_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-dp,TopRight,12,-18_SH30_OU01_AA160_.jpg
(http://www.amazon.com/Lenin-Stalin-Hitler-Catastrophe-Vintage/dp/140003213X/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402677848&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=gallately+the+age+of+social+catastrope)
Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler: The Age of Social Catastrophe (Vintage) (http://www.amazon.com/Lenin-Stalin-Hitler-Catastrophe-Vintage/dp/140003213X/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402677848&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=gallately+the+age+of+social+catastrope) by Robert Gellately (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Gellately/e/B001IR3GK0/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1?qid=1402677848&sr=8-1-spell) (Aug 12, 2008)

[Bob]

The earth is for all the people. That is the demand.
The machinery of production and distribution for all the people. That is the demand.
The collective ownership and control of industry and its democratic management in the interest of all the people. That is the demand.
The elimination of rent, interest, profit and the production of wealth to satisfy the wants of all the people. That is the demand.
Cooperative industry in which all shall work together in harmony as the basis of a new social order, a higher civilization, a real republic. That is the demand.
The end of class struggles and class rule, of master and slave, or ignorance and vice, of poverty and shame, of cruelty and crime -- the birth of freedom, the dawn of Brotherhood, the beginning of MAN. That is the demand.
1903, Speaking before the Western Federation of Miners

It has to be made clear that we in business do not enter business as a way to rule anybody.

Companies formed to rule have no mission to serve. I formed companies to serve.

When the Feds can convert my business to their desires, it is tyranny.

Debs backed tyranny.

Another way to look at it is

Say you like cattle for your own reason

You save as you work on cattle ranches
You purchase land
You purchase cattle

You earn money from cattle. They can be dairy cows or beef.

In any case, now you are worth 100 million dollars. What did America do that got you rich?

Did they hand you cash?

The honest truth is unless Government pays you a high wage, you prefer working for private companies.

[Green Arrow]

Yes, the business class will simply hand over their wealth to the po' out of stricken consciences and a collective fit of insanity.:laugh:

I don't believe he said that, either.

[Mister D]

wtf are you blathering about?

Yeah, your orginal comment was pretty stupid. Well, I'm glad it doesn't bother you. :laugh:

[Green Arrow]

That is the same snotty shit you have pulled all along.

I'll quote this right back at you the next time you demand I prove something.

[Mister D]

Lenin got the mass murder machine under way as soon as he achieved power, and ran it zestfully.

Read this:

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41m0bfP%2BKnL._SL160_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-dp,TopRight,12,-18_SH30_OU01_AA160_.jpg
(http://www.amazon.com/Lenin-Stalin-Hitler-Catastrophe-Vintage/dp/140003213X/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402677848&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=gallately+the+age+of+social+catastrope)
Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler: The Age of Social Catastrophe (Vintage) (http://www.amazon.com/Lenin-Stalin-Hitler-Catastrophe-Vintage/dp/140003213X/ref=sr_1_sc_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1402677848&sr=8-1-spell&keywords=gallately+the+age+of+social+catastrope) by Robert Gellately (http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Gellately/e/B001IR3GK0/ref=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_1?qid=1402677848&sr=8-1-spell) (Aug 12, 2008)


del oh wait...:laugh:

[del]

Yeah, your orginal comment was pretty stupid. Well, I'm glad it doesn't bother you. :laugh:

what was my original comment? i haven't edited anything

you're making no sense at all

maybe you should say a prayer

[Spectre]

Yeah, your orginal comment was pretty stupid. Well, I'm glad it doesn't bother you. :laugh:

Has it ever?:laugh:

I'm convinced del posts drunk out of his skull.

[Green Arrow]

Mister D, Spectre, is it not possible to align with someone ideologically without supporting everything they do?

[Mister D]

what was my original comment? i haven't edited anything

you're making no sense at all

maybe you should say a prayer

For the victims of the Bolshevik regime Debs admired so much? I wonder if he said any prayers for them? Doesn't sound like it! :wink:

[Mister D]

@Mister D (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=4), @Spectre (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1072), is it not possible to align with someone ideologically without supporting everything they do?

Just mocking del.

No, it's not possible to declare support for a regime the way Debs did without in some way implicating yourself in their activities.

[Spectre]

@Mister D (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=4), @Spectre (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1072), is it not possible to align with someone ideologically without supporting everything they do?

'From the crown of my head to the soles of my feet' would seem to indicate warmer feelings than an alignment of temporary convenience.

[Mister D]

If anyone declared support for the National Socialists in Germany that way he would forever be known as a Nazi sympathizer as would anyone trying to clear his name.

[Green Arrow]

Just mocking del.

No, it's not possible to declare support for a regime the way Debs did without in some way implicating yourself in their activities.

When did Lenin start his massacres?

[Green Arrow]

'From the crown of my head to the soles of my feet' would seem to indicate warmer feelings than an alignment of temporary convenience.

Those are your words, not mine. I said he agreed with them ideologically.

[Bob]

Yep, pretty much a commie.

I have a question why "intellectuals" lump all businesses in with the banksters and industry titans. There have always been people like me who started their own business with their own money and their own labor and then want to relax later in life without the alleged "producers" (who come in later) wanting to steal everything we worked for.

I think that's horseshit. Seize my means of production and get your ass kicked.

Thanks Codename Section

You are younger than I yet we both share common beliefs.

You spent time on active duty. I spent time on active duty.
You were in war. I was lucky but still understand the military.

You would not stand still for socialism.

I despise socialism.

Why me so much?

Because I was there. I spent time seeing it operate. I ate in a socialist cafe. I saw deserted streets in a massive city. Where were the people? It is my opinion that they were far from contact with we military types by edict of socialist law. They were not allowed to be that close to the border. It shocks me that the cafe was open. I don't recall it having customers other than me and a soldier who paired with me for security reasons.

[Bob]

yeah, what an asshole for expecting you to prove a point

hanging is too good for people like that

He demanded quotes. He can Quote Debs all damned day long. Do not put that burden on me.

I understand Debs. So you get the chance to defend him.

Show his quotes that dispute me.

[Mister D]

When did Lenin start his massacres?

The Cheka was created in December 1917.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheka


"Without mercy, without sparing, we will kill our enemies in scores of hundreds. Let them be thousands, let them drown themselves in their own blood. For the blood of Lenin and Uritsky (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Moisei_Uritsky) … let there be floods of blood of the bourgeoisie (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Bourgeoisie) – more blood, as much as possible…"[16] (http://thepoliticalforums.com/#cite_note-16)



The Bolshevik sentiment was clear enough to anyone paying attention including Debs. Did he ever renounce Bolshevism?

The Red Terror began in 1918.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror

[Spectre]

When did Lenin start his massacres?

http://www.darwinistdictators.com/articles/lenin.html

But refer to the book I posted an Amazon link to above.

[Codename Section]

Where did he mention force or seizure? I missed that.

http://www.marxists.org/archive/debs/

In his speech to the Chicago trade unions, the minors coalition, the speech of the founding convention of the IWW, etc.

How do you define "take" ? I don't see it as "build". To me they are two different words and expressions. Nowhere do I read in any of his speeches yet where he says workers must come together to form a cooperative themselves, pooling money and building their own means of production.

He says words like "take" and "demand".

Of course he also hated "Dagos" like Spectre and Mister D so that's ok. Lol, Dagos "fatten on garbage" lol and "lives like a savage", and "were coming" to the US!" But to get back on Mister D's good side he also hated immigration because it would bring in Jews to America. :laugh:

Citizen and Socialist is a pretty good book. I'm having a good laugh in the immigration chapter. NO WAY could you say stuff like this now. It's awesome!

You stupid fatty savages, ya dumb Dagos!

[Codename Section]

Mister D, just for today can I please call you a dumb, fatty savage? Please. It would mean so much to me.

[Spectre]

That's ok, we dagos invented the Mafia and took control of Debs' unions pretty quickly.:laugh:

[Mister D]

http://www.marxists.org/archive/debs/

In his speech to the Chicago trade unions, the minors coalition, the speech of the founding convention of the IWW, etc.

How do you define "take" ? I don't see it as "build". To me they are two different words and expressions. Nowhere do I read in any of his speeches yet where he says workers must come together to form a cooperative themselves, pooling money and building their own means of production.

He says words like "take" and "demand".

Of course he also hated "Dagos" like Spectre and Mister D so that's ok. Lol, Dagos "fatten on garbage" lol and "lives like a savage", and "were coming" to the US!" But to get back on Mister D's good side he also hated immigration because it would bring in Jews to America. :laugh:

Citizen and Socialist is a pretty good book. I'm having a good laugh in the immigration chapter. NO WAY could you say stuff like this now. It's awesome!

You stupid fatty savages, ya dumb Dagos!



OK Green Arrow he wasn't all bad. :grin:

[Mister D]

That's ok, we dagos invented the Mafia and took control of Debs' unions pretty quickly.:laugh:

ha! :laugh:

[Bob]

Where did he mention force or seizure? I missed that.

What the hell?

Do you know a person that owned and operated a company that socialism became the owner of?

Do you think they walked away from that company without fear of the Government?

Debs had to know you don't take companies away by sweet talk. Government is FORCE.

Nothing on earth can move you the way Government can. You have no defense when Government does it.

Debs himself was jailed by government. He wanted government to own companies. Well, government owned the jail they sent him to.

Nobody will simply head to DC to eagerly hand over a company.

[Mister D]

@Mister D (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=4), just for today can I please call you a dumb, fatty savage? Please. It would mean so much to me.

I may be a garlic eating, dago, fascist bastard but I am NOT fat, sir. :angry:

[Bob]

I'll quote this right back at you the next time you demand I prove something.

no no no no
It was you who slammed me for not proving something. A thing i might add that did not need me to prove it. Google is your pal. Green Arrow

[Codename Section]

I may be a garlic eating, dago, fascist bastard but I am NOT fat, sir. :angry:

Skinny savage?

[Mister D]

Skinny savage?

That will be fine. :smiley:

[Libhater]

That will be fine. :smiley:

as we mimic Imus.

[Bob]

When did Lenin start his massacres?

You pull this a lot Green Arrow. On one post you give names, dates and cite sources. Then you act as if you hardly heard of Lenin and simply don't have clue one what he did. Dammit man.

[Mister D]

It's interesting Debs felt that way about immigration. Jews were prominent in the Bolshevik movement particularly in the security services until the late 1930s when Stalin began to act against their influence. At first glance, it would appear that Debs did not know all that much about the movement outside the rhetoric it designed for foreign consumption. Not sure though. I don't know much about the man.

[Mister D]

as we mimic Imus.

I have no idea what that means.

[Libhater]

I have no idea what that means.

As Imus gets a mock beating from his cast of jovials on his morning show, he's apt to stop the onslaught by using that very phrase...."that will be fine"

[Codename Section]

You pull this a lot @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868). On one post you give names, dates and cite sources. Then you act as if you hardly heard of Lenin and simply don't have clue one what he did. Dammit man.

Pump the brakes on the kid. I like some things about the Zapatistas, I even liked that Lady Gaga song Let's Dance. It's hard to be consistent 100%.

At least I have my looks. :cool2:

[nathanbforrest45]

Where did he mention force or seizure? I missed that.

If they make a demand that all the means of production belong to the people and I don't want to give up what I own what is the alternative? Socialism must, because of human nature, always turn to force to achieve its goals. There is no other way.

[Codename Section]

It's interesting Debs felt that way about immigration. Jews were prominent in the Bolshevik movement particularly in the security services until the late 1930s when Stalin began to act against their influence. At first glance, it would appear that Debs did not know all that much about the movement outside the rhetoric it designed for foreign consumption. Not sure though. I don't know much about the man.

Maybe he got some bad lox one time.

[Mister D]

As Imus gets a mock beating from his cast of jovials on his morning show, he's apt to stop the onslaught by using that very phrase...."that will be fine"

Ah, I see. Don Imus says that. A Jew!

[nathanbforrest45]

I don't believe he said that, either.


Its got to be one of the two Green. Either the owners simply give up their property or the state takes it. Which will it be?

[nathanbforrest45]

Just mocking del.

No, it's not possible to declare support for a regime the way Debs did without in some way implicating yourself in their activities.

If you do you are either stupid and don't understand what you are supporting or you accept their methods in principle. I don't think Debs was stupid.

[Libhater]

Ah, I see. Don Imus says that. A Jew!

No, Imus ain't no jew...he's a Welshman.

[Mister D]

No, Imus ain't no jew...he's a Welshman.

Oh, I stand corrected.

[nathanbforrest45]

@Mister D (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=4), just for today can I please call you a dumb, fatty savage? Please. It would mean so much to me.


I am of Italian descent and I am slightly overweight so you can call me a fat savage Dago if you want. But dumb I am not.

[Green Arrow]

http://www.marxists.org/archive/debs/

In his speech to the Chicago trade unions, the minors coalition, the speech of the founding convention of the IWW, etc.

How do you define "take" ? I don't see it as "build". To me they are two different words and expressions. Nowhere do I read in any of his speeches yet where he says workers must come together to form a cooperative themselves, pooling money and building their own means of production.

He says words like "take" and "demand".

Of course he also hated "Dagos" like Spectre and Mister D so that's ok. Lol, Dagos "fatten on garbage" lol and "lives like a savage", and "were coming" to the US!" But to get back on Mister D's good side he also hated immigration because it would bring in Jews to America. :laugh:

Citizen and Socialist is a pretty good book. I'm having a good laugh in the immigration chapter. NO WAY could you say stuff like this now. It's awesome!

You stupid fatty savages, ya dumb Dagos!

Then I disagree with him on that. *shrug*

[Green Arrow]

You pull this a lot @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868). On one post you give names, dates and cite sources. Then you act as if you hardly heard of Lenin and simply don't have clue one what he did. Dammit man.

I don't post for your pleasure, Bob. I can't fucking win with you. Either I get shit on for being a know it all or I get shit on for not knowing enough.

Do yourself a favor. If you don't like what I post, DON'T READ IT.

[Green Arrow]

If you do you are either stupid and don't understand what you are supporting or you accept their methods in principle. I don't think Debs was stupid.

Or you could just be unaware. The world is not black and white.

[nathanbforrest45]

Or you could just be unaware. The world is not black and white.
Being unaware equates to being stupid. How can you believe in a system but not know how it works or what the consequences of its policies might be and not be stupid or just plain ignorant? If you are going to try to tell me how to live my life you damn sure should know what your polices really mean don't you think?

[Codename Section]

Then I disagree with him on that. *shrug*

I agree with him on Mister D being a skinny savage Dago.

[Green Arrow]

I agree with him on Mister D being a skinny savage Dago.

I've heard a lot of racist terms, but never "Dago." That one is interesting.

[Bob]

I don't post for your pleasure, Bob. I can't fucking win with you. Either I get shit on for being a know it all or I get shit on for not knowing enough.

Do yourself a favor. If you don't like what I post, DON'T READ IT.
Green Arrow

Funny but that has been my fucking complaint about you from early on.

Strange how this is what we agree about.

[Green Arrow]

@Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868)

Funny but that has been my fucking complaint about you from early on.

Strange how this is what we agree about.

Ah, yes, I forgot. You're a 75 year old who feels persecuted by a 22 year old :rollseyes:

[Bob]

I've heard a lot of racist terms, but never "Dago." That one is interesting.

Oh lord man.

We called Italians many things.

We had plenty of words for immigrants.

Dagos, spicks, greasers, whops!!! Hell that is for openers.

I was called an Okie as a young lad.

[Bob]

Ah, yes, I forgot. You're a 75 year old who feels persecuted by a 22 year old :rollseyes:

From day 1, you showed no respect. Then you whine I mistreat you. That figures.

[Green Arrow]

From day 1, you showed no respect. Then you whine I mistreat you. That figures.

You're so full of shit, Bob. Up until relatively recently, I never said a damn thing to you that wasn't respectful. I even agreed with you quite a bit, until you started this bullshit condescension.

[Bob]

You're so full of shit, Bob. Up until relatively recently, I never said a damn thing to you that wasn't respectful. I even agreed with you quite a bit, until you started this bullshit condescension.

That is a sample of the shit you do. Sure, when the mood hit you, you agreed.

But you act like I NEVER agreed with you.

Treat me as you treat Peter and watch things improve.

Just stop biting my heels.

[Spectre]

I've heard a lot of racist terms, but never "Dago." That one is interesting.
Wop is the one I mostly heard. Dago much less often. Guinea not at all.

We called Anglos 'mangia cakes'--cake eaters. :laugh:

Blacks were called melanzane (I think Sicilians pronounce it 'moolinyan'): ie, 'eggplants':laugh:

[Green Arrow]

Wop is the one I mostly heard. Dago much less often. Guinea not at all.

We called Anglos 'mangia cakes'--cake eaters. :laugh:

Blacks were called melanzane (I think Sicilians pronounce it 'moolinyan'): ie, 'eggplants':laugh:

These are all pretty strange to me :tongue: The most I ever heard on a regular basis was stuff like wetback, the Mexican-related stuff. Of course, I grew up in Southern California :tongue:

[Green Arrow]

That is a sample of the shit you do. Sure, when the mood hit you, you agreed.

But you act like I NEVER agreed with you.

Treat me as you treat Peter and watch things improve.

Just stop biting my heels.

I treat pretty much everyone older than me with respect. Your approach is the one that needs evaluating, not mine.

[Bob]

I treat pretty much everyone older than me with respect. Your approach is the one that needs evaluating, not mine.

As I said, I was upset with you and it was not a week or a month ago. I was caught by surprise when you blew me off. And you always refuse to be responmsible.

Even above, you lay all the blame on me.

i take shit for just so many posts and then it gets kind of ugly.

Why do you think I first asked about your age?

because you were respectful????? :rollseyes:

Code and I have crossed horns. I get along with him. Some degree of argument is just normal. I don't resent that.

[Mister D]

Wop is the one I mostly heard. Dago much less often. Guinea not at all.

We called Anglos 'mangia cakes'--cake eaters. :laugh:

Blacks were called melanzane (I think Sicilians pronounce it 'moolinyan'): ie, 'eggplants':laugh:

Mulignan is awesome. :laugh: I say that in the produce market all the time.

The mulignans look terrible!

[Bob]

These are all pretty strange to me :tongue: The most I ever heard on a regular basis was stuff like wetback, the Mexican-related stuff. Of course, I grew up in Southern California :tongue:

It took years to die down but as a kid, I was well acquainted with those terms. It is dependent on age I believe unless your parents talked that way.

[Bob]

Mulignan is awesome. :laugh: I say that in the produce market all the time.

The mulignans look terrible!

I am old as dirt but that is new to me. :evil:

[Green Arrow]

It took years to die down but as a kid, I was well acquainted with those terms. It is dependent on age I believe unless your parents talked that way.

I believe this to be true. My dad is kind of a bigot, so I grew up not liking Mexicans a whole lot. I still had Mexican friends, and I loved them dearly. So did my dad. But there's a certain type of Mexican we didn't care for.

[Codename Section]

Bob Green Arrow

you're doing it again. ((pimp slaps))

[Bob]

I believe this to be true. My dad is kind of a bigot, so I grew up not liking Mexicans a whole lot. I still had Mexican friends, and I loved them dearly. So did my dad. But there's a certain type of Mexican we didn't care for.

Thank you.

If you ever were called an Okie the way I was as a kid, name calling might not be your thing. Believe it or not, when I was a kid and had to work on a cotton farm, I can't recall any Mexicans at all in the field or at the school I attended. When I moved out of the San Joaquin Valley, downtown where my mom rented, I saw no Mexicans. We moved out 4 miles and some lived there. We were friends. I never saw a black in school until high school. And very few at that.

[Green Arrow]

Thank you.

If you ever were called an Okie the way I was as a kid, name calling might not be your thing. Believe it or not, when I was a kid and had to work on a cotton farm, I can't recall any Mexicans at all in the field or at the school I attended. When I moved out of the San Joaquin Valley, downtown where my mom rented, I saw no Mexicans. We moved out 4 miles and some lived there. We were friends. I never saw a black in school until high school. And very few at that.

Oh, I got called names plenty. The Mexicans called me "puto." The cool kids called me Napoleon Dynamite. Once I joined the newspaper this all changed, and I got to be the popular kid, but I had my time at the bottom.

[Bob]

Oh, I got called names plenty. The Mexicans called me "puto." The cool kids called me Napoleon Dynamite. Once I joined the newspaper this all changed, and I got to be the popular kid, but I had my time at the bottom.

Oh boy. Bad name. Okie is terrible. They really feel they are putting one down. It had to be hard to find that job at the newspaper. You still work there? What in circulation? I am thinking entry level jobs.

[del]

He demanded quotes. He can Quote Debs all damned day long. Do not put that burden on me.

I understand Debs. So you get the chance to defend him.

Show his quotes that dispute me.

ok, so you have nothing, as usual

[del]

I may be a garlic eating, dago, fascist bastard but I am NOT fat, sir. :angry:

you forgot drug addicted

[Green Arrow]

Oh boy. Bad name. Okie is terrible. They really feel they are putting one down. It had to be hard to find that job at the newspaper. You still work there? What in circulation? I am thinking entry level jobs.

It was the school newspaper, lol. Sorry, should have clarified that.

[Green Arrow]

ok, so you have nothing, as usual

Drop it, del.

[The Sage of Main Street]

When did Lenin start his massacres? Lenin treated people as impersonal objects. Not only did this enable Stalin, but being so naïve that he couldn't see through Stalin's self-centered opportunism was typical of the spoiled shelter brats of the upper class who should be automatically excluded from democratic movements. This typical pattern of what are really contradictions, "palace revolutions," was started with the hacendado Francisco Madero in Mexico in 1911.

[The Sage of Main Street]

That's ok, we dagos invented the Mafia and took control of Debs' unions pretty quickly.:laugh: You mean you protected the unions. Every group needs an army. Even a pro-Mafia show like The Sopranos was not allowed to show that part of their operations was to be soldiers for economic freedom. Notice that the only two strong unions left, the Teamsters and the Longshoremen, have traditionally had muscle to back up their demands against the business parasites.

[Mini Me]

You mean you protected the unions. Every group needs an army. Even a pro-Mafia show like The Sopranos was not allowed to show that part of their operations was to be soldiers for economic freedom. Notice that the only two strong unions left, the Teamsters and the Longshoremen, have traditionally had muscle to back up their demands against the business parasites.

Mussolini made his fascist career out of beating up trade unionists and socialists and chrushing all freedom in Italy and busting up the Mafia. Ironically, it was Patton and the US, which put the Mafia back into control after the invasion of Italy, and the US Govt. even made a deal with Lucky Luciano to protect the ports of New York city in exchange for a reduced prison sentence.

Italians traded their freedom for absolute security, and like the strong man Dick Tator.

[Mini Me]

Oh boy. Bad name. Okie is terrible. They really feel they are putting one down. It had to be hard to find that job at the newspaper. You still work there? What in circulation? I am thinking entry level jobs.

Bob. The term Okie is not neccesarily a pejorative term. I knew lots of Okies in S. cal where I grew up. It just designates where someone is from, and some oKies refer to themselves as Okies. They were treated horribly when they came to cal. and many have a chip on their shoulder.

I do know this: They love to fight, and are no one to tangle assholes with!

[Green Arrow]

At any rate, I like Eugene V. Debs. Don't agree with him on everything, but I don't agree with anyone on everything, so that's okay.

[DigitalBluster]

The earth is for all the people. That is the demand.
The machinery of production and distribution for all the people. That is the demand.
The collective ownership and control of industry and its democratic management in the interest of all the people. That is the demand.
The elimination of rent, interest, profit and the production of wealth to satisfy the wants of all the people. That is the demand.
Cooperative industry in which all shall work together in harmony as the basis of a new social order, a higher civilization, a real republic. That is the demand.
The end of class struggles and class rule, of master and slave, or ignorance and vice, of poverty and shame, of cruelty and crime -- the birth of freedom, the dawn of Brotherhood, the beginning of MAN. That is the demand.
1903, Speaking before the Western Federation of Miners

He's got my vote!

[Mr. Nygma]

I like the older unions where it was organic and people organized and then protested and went on strikes to use collective bargaining power. I don't like how unions are run now.

We meet people in life and they help us grow our opinions on things. I've shift in a lot of my views towards the voluntarist approach.

Many of us got together and build a community and a few businesses. It took saving for a few years, pooling money, and putting a lot of labor into goal. We now have land, decent sized houses, a farm lot, and have some share in the livestock business. This made me move towards the idea of cooperative living being a real possibilty and a workable model. Everything we did was voluntary. We have struggles but we get through them.

Socialism as a redistribution model like Debs and others promoted I cannot support. To take from one to give to another is not moral. It's just revenge and bullying. In the end you WILL become the Soviet Union because how you go about something is as important as the end goal.

I am trying to come up with a website or something that talks about what we've done and a diary so that people can see that its possible to be a commune where people have enough without loss of property because I don't believe all property is theft anymore. I believe theft is theft. You can have common areas of sharing and still have your own. In fact, you gotta have your own or things will get ugly.