SCOTUS says ban on gay conversion therapy ok

[Green Arrow]

Via Politico (http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/supreme-court-gay-therapy-ban-108427.html):


WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court has rejected a challenge to California's law that bars mental counseling aimed at turning gay minors straight.

The justices on Monday let stand an appeals court ruling that said the state's ban on so-called conversion therapy for minors doesn't violate the free speech rights of licensed counselors and patients seeking treatment.


The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals ruled last year that California lawmakers properly showed that efforts to change sexual orientation were outside the scientific mainstream and have been rejected for good reason.


Liberty Counsel, a Christian legal aid group, had challenged the law along with other supporters of the therapy. They argue that lawmakers have no scientific proof the therapy does harm.

Not sure how I feel about state governments banning gay conversion therapy. It's certainly not a breach of constitutional protocol. At the same time, it IS (as far as I'm aware) completely voluntary. Or is it? They are minors, so their parents may be forcing them to go. If that's the case, I think the ban is justified.

Regardless, I won't shed any tears. Gay conversion therapy is absurd pseudo-science, and it doesn't just hurt gay people.

[The Xl]

Minors shouldn't be forced by their parents to be subject to this sort of lunacy.

Adults can go knock themselves out with it for all I care. If you're an adult and want to try this shit, have at it.

[Cigar]

The GOP and The SCOTUS really need to leave the Gay thing alone ... that Train has passed

[The Xl]

Via Politico (http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/supreme-court-gay-therapy-ban-108427.html):



Not sure how I feel about state governments banning gay conversion therapy. It's certainly not a breach of constitutional protocol. At the same time, it IS (as far as I'm aware) completely voluntary. Or is it? They are minors, so their parents may be forcing them to go. If that's the case, I think the ban is justified.

Regardless, I won't shed any tears. Gay conversion therapy is absurd pseudo-science, and it doesn't just hurt gay people.

I'm sure in 99% percent of cases with gay kids, it's involuntary.

[PolWatch]

I don't think conversion therapy will change what is...but its a shame that some parents can reject what their child is. One of my brothers was left-handed & was forced to write with his right hand...never did write well...same thing (to me).

[GrassrootsConservative]

The GOP and The SCOTUS really need to leave the Gay thing alone ... that Train has passed

Lol, but the Democrats will bring it up for another decade if they can keep beating that horse and you won't say a solitary thing about it. You're a humongous hypocrite, Cigar.


I'm sure in 99% percent of cases with gay kids, it's involuntary.

Can I just jump in and say that with most kids, going to school is involuntary as well? I don't think I knew anybody in school when I was a kid who would have gone to school if they had a choice about it.

[Alyosha]

I think for minors, yes, but that's like saying ban tattoos, body augmentation, etc. It may not be my cup of tea, but why stop someone? I don't think crystal therapy works but if they banned that in California 100's of thousands of people would be out of a job.

[Green Arrow]

I think for minors, yes, but that's like saying ban tattoos, body augmentation, etc. It may not be my cup of tea, but why stop someone? I don't think crystal therapy works but if they banned that in California 100's of thousands of people would be out of a job.

It apparently is specifically ruling on minors.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

Adults can go know themselves out with it for all I care. If you're an adult and want to try this shit, have at it.
Majority of the time, the subject, adult or child, is undergoing 'gay conversion therapy' as a consequence of familial pressure. I hold the whole sick practice as low as psychological abuse.

[The Xl]

Lol, but the Democrats will bring it up for another decade if they can keep beating that horse and you won't say a solitary thing about it. You're a humongous hypocrite, Cigar.



Can I just jump in and say that with most kids, going to school is involuntary as well? I don't think I knew anybody in school when I was a kid who would have gone to school if they had a choice about it.

There is a difference between being educated and being subjected to involuntary abuse.

[Green Arrow]

The GOP and The SCOTUS really need to leave the Gay thing alone ... that Train has passed

The SCOTUS just ruled in favor of the LGB community. So...

[The Xl]

Majority of the time, the subject, adult or child, is undergoing 'gay conversion therapy' as a consequence of familial pressure. I hold the whole sick practice as low as psychological abuse.

I don't care if an adult succumbs to peer pressure. That's on them. They still have the choice.

[Alyosha]

Majority of the time, the subject, adult or child, is undergoing 'gay conversion therapy' as a consequence of familial pressure. I hold the whole sick practice as low as psychological abuse.

And most female cosmetic surgery is a result of pressure, too, do we ban that? Should we stop women from reducing or growing their breast size because we know they only want large breasts because of men? Should we stop women from wearing harmful makeup because magazines push it on them?

I agree with kids being rescued by the courts. No kid should be forced into anti-gay therapy OR should be given hormones to transition from their "gender".

I just think adults should be allowed to do whatever stupid shit they feel like.

[Cthulhu]

Not sure how I feel about state governments banning gay conversion therapy. It's certainly not a breach of constitutional protocol. At the same time, it IS (as far as I'm aware) completely voluntary. Or is it? They are minors, so their parents may be forcing them to go. If that's the case, I think the ban is justified.

Regardless, I won't shed any tears. Gay conversion therapy is absurd pseudo-science, and it doesn't just hurt gay people.

While I think gay conversion therapy and its successes/failures are entirely individual - that isn't the reason I am vexed with SCOTUS right now.

What they have done essentially is allowed themselves to become a medical board determining what is 'best' for the patient. These are lawyers, not doctors.

What they have done is made an arbitrary decision about the mental health care with this precedent. This is a foot in the door for worse things to come. It should never have made it to the CA SC.

As laughable as I think psychology is as a 'medical profession', this type of meddling is extremely dangerous. Let the patient and the physician determine what is best, not a bunch of costumed hoodlums wearing moth frocks.

[Cigar]

Lol, but the Democrats will bring it up for another decade if they can keep beating that horse and you won't say a solitary thing about it. You're a humongous hypocrite, Cigar.



Can I just jump in and say that with most kids, going to school is involuntary as well? I don't think I knew anybody in school when I was a kid who would have gone to school if they had a choice about it.


I understand your frustration ... always being on the wrong side history must suck :laugh:

[Gerrard Winstanley]

I think for minors, yes, but that's like saying ban tattoos, body augmentation, etc. It may not be my cup of tea, but why stop someone? I don't think crystal therapy works but if they banned that in California 100's of thousands of people would be out of a job.
To compare the gay conversion industry to body art providers is ... a stretch, to say the least.

[GrassrootsConservative]

There is a difference between being educated and being subjected to involuntary abuse.

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

:laugh: Nevermind. My point clearly went over your head.

[Alyosha]

While I think gay conversion therapy and its successes/failures are entirely individual -

I know it doesn't go the other way, but as a female I don't want to be married to the male who tells me he passed through a religious conversion program and is now able to marry and have sex with a female. I don't want some guy who can "control his urges" and have sex with me anyway.

Who wants to always be second place?

[GrassrootsConservative]

I understand your frustration ... always being on the wrong side history must suck :laugh:

Tell me about it, Mr. 300 years of suffering.

[Captain Obvious]

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

:laugh: Nevermind. My point clearly went over your head.

wot...

[Alyosha]

To compare the gay conversion industry to body art providers is ... a stretch, to say the least.


The principle of individual choice and liberty is the same. You have a right to try to be straight if you feel like it, or you have the right to experiment with being gay.

I may not think that the 18 year old who is about to turn his or her face into a tattoo of reptile skin should be allowed, but I won't stop them.

[GrassrootsConservative]

wot...

Lol, read my post, and then read his response.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

I don't care if an adult succumbs to peer pressure. That's on them. They still have the choice.
I have to agree, but that doesn't really stop it being psychological abuse. There should definitely be a ban on kids being pushed through this shit.

[Cigar]

Tell me about it, Mr. 300 years of suffering.


Looks like the next 300 is going to be really bright for the once privileged :laugh:

What goes around comes around :wink:

[Gerrard Winstanley]

The principle of individual choice and liberty is the same. You have a right to try to be straight if you feel like it, or you have the right to experiment with being gay.

I may not think that the 18 year old who is about to turn his or her face into a tattoo of reptile skin should be allowed, but I won't stop them.
Come to think of it, this is an interesting parallel. A tattoo is an expression of one who is. Gay conversion therapy aims to eliminate a perfectly natural aspect of the self. As said, I don't support an all-out ban.

[The Xl]

While I think gay conversion therapy and its successes/failures are entirely individual - that isn't the reason I am vexed with SCOTUS right now.

What they have done essentially is allowed themselves to become a medical board determining what is 'best' for the patient. These are lawyers, not doctors.

What they have done is made an arbitrary decision about the mental health care with this precedent. This is a foot in the door for worse things to come. It should never have made it to the CA SC.

As laughable as I think psychology is as a 'medical profession', this type of meddling is extremely dangerous. Let the patient and the physician determine what is best, not a bunch of costumed hoodlums wearing moth frocks.

I think the Supreme Court is made up of corrupt buffoons, but pseudo science like psychology probably shouldn't be implemented here, either.

Common sense should take over. It's clear that this is a form of a abuse, and the success if questionable at best, so kids should be left out.

[GrassrootsConservative]

To compare the gay conversion industry to body art providers is ... a stretch, to say the least.

She wasn't comparing the industries, she was pointing out the precedent set when you ban something just because you don't like it. I don't like Liberalism, but I would never want it banned, which is shitty, because most Liberals probably would want Conservatism banned.

[Cigar]

The principle of individual choice and liberty is the same. You have a right to try to be straight if you feel like it, or you have the right to experiment with being gay.

I may not think that the 18 year old who is about to turn his or her face into a tattoo of reptile skin should be allowed, but I won't stop them.


The last thing most people want is their HR Department overruling their Doctor :laugh:

[The Xl]

Thank you, Captain Obvious.

:laugh: Nevermind. My point clearly went over your head.

Your point was pretty weak. I don't even think you're sure where you were going with it, other than to draw a parallel between two unrelated things.

[kilgram]

The principle of individual choice and liberty is the same. You have a right to try to be straight if you feel like it, or you have the right to experiment with being gay.

I may not think that the 18 year old who is about to turn his or her face into a tattoo of reptile skin should be allowed, but I won't stop them.
But your sexuality is not a choice.

Thoset therapies are very aggresive and abusive. Normally very harming for the person that is going to that therapy. At least, for what I've read about it and the consequences.

[Cthulhu]

I know it doesn't go the other way, but as a female I don't want to be married to the male who tells me he passed through a religious conversion program and is now able to marry and have sex with a female. I don't want some guy who can "control his urges" and have sex with me anyway.

Who wants to always be second place?

Who says you have to be? Females are the selectors of sexual reproduction in a civilized society. You're only second place if you want to be.

This ruling is just another oar in a pond the SCOTUS(or government period to be generic) doesn't belong in. I say let the market figure it out and if there is a demand it will thrive, if not, it will discontinue.

Some say it is abuse, others say it is therapeutic. The same argument could be made for boarding or military schools for children - works for some and not for others.

If I were to rule on this at all, I would say it should be by consent of the patient. Sure the kid can still be subject to pressure one way or the other, but it does give the patient at least final say on his fate.

[Alyosha]

Who says you have to be? Females are the selectors of sexual reproduction in a civilized society. You're only second place if you want to be.

I'm sorry, just you're wrong. Just because someone can control most of his urges enough to make me #1 for the actual sex doesn't mean he's not sexing me and thinking of Chris Hemsworth.

That is not something I want or any woman deserves.




This ruling is just another oar in a pond the SCOTUS(or government period to be generic) doesn't belong in. I say let the market figure it out and if there is a demand it will thrive, if not, it will discontinue.


agreed.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Your point was pretty weak. I don't even think you're sure where you were going with it, other than to draw a parallel between two unrelated things.

I was trying to show you what's wrong with making everything voluntary when it comes to the children raised by other people. Parents have rights over their kids til the age of 18 for a reason.

Totally understand the points made about some parents not accepting the way their kids are, my parents still don't like me listening to Rush and voting Conservative. Some people are just intolerant.

[Cigar]

If you're a Woman you've just been told that a corporation can deny you essential, basic health care.

You've just been told that since you have different parts than a man, you must pay extra for basic health care.

You've just been told that you are a second class citizen.

You've just been told that your vagina is worth less than a penis.

If you're a man who had a spouse covered by an employer health plan, you've just had your taxes/fees raised

If you're a man who had a spouse covered by an employer health plan, you've just been told to dig a little deeper into you pockets to pay for basic health care services for your spouse...even if that basic health care is all that prevents her from bleeding out and dying

[The Xl]

I was trying to show you what's wrong with making everything voluntary when it comes to the children raised by other people. Parents have rights over their kids til the age of 18 for a reason.

Totally understand the points made about some parents not accepting the way their kids are, my parents still don't like me listening to Rush and voting Conservative. Some people are just intolerant.

Parents can raise them, sure, but abuse is illegal and immoral. This isn't any different than physically assaulting your kid.

[Cthulhu]

I have to agree, but that doesn't really stop it being psychological abuse. There should definitely be a ban on kids being pushed through this shit.

Abuse is in the eye of the beholder with most issues - this being one of them.

If that is how you see it, than you should start carrying the banner to ban public schools. Taking the raw creativity of the youth, and their infinite potential, and then trimming it appropriately so it fits into a cute progressive box sounds dreadfully abusive to me.

Not to mention that we lock out kids up daily in a place where shooting them up like fish in a barrel is all to easy.

I support it, ban public education.:rollseyes:

No, seriously, I like the idea of banning public education. I just think your argument for banning the treatment is a little shortsighted.

[The Xl]

If you're a Woman you've just been told that a corporation can deny you essential, basic health care.

You've just been told that since you have different parts than a man, you must pay extra for basic health care.

You've just been told that you are a second class citizen.

You've just been told that your vagina is worth less than a penis.

If you're a man who had a spouse covered by an employer health plan, you've just had your taxes/fees raised

If you're a man who had a spouse covered by an employer health plan, you've just been told to dig a little deeper into you pockets to pay for basic health care services for your spouse...even if that basic health care is all that prevents her from bleeding out and dying

Stop with the shitty Democrat talking points for once, please.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Parents can raise them, sure, but abuse is illegal and immoral. This isn't any different than physically assaulting your kid.

As someone who has actually been physically assaulted by an abusive (step)parent, I can tell you it's a lot fucking different.

[Cthulhu]

I think the Supreme Court is made up of corrupt buffoons, but pseudo science like psychology probably shouldn't be implemented here, either.

Common sense should take over. It's clear that this is a form of a abuse, and the success if questionable at best, so kids should be left out.

A great deal of medical science started out as "questionable at best". If it works and creates happy lives - super. If it doesn't work for others - tragic.

Put the decision into the patients hands, not the Nazgul.

[The Xl]

As someone who has actually been physically assaulted by an abusive (step)parent, I can tell you it's a lot fucking different.

Have you also undergone gay conversion therapy? You only have one perspective here. I admittedly only have one as well, but I understand that psychological abuse can be just as bad, if not, more so.

As someone who has actually been in fights before and taken quite a few nice hits, I'd rather that than sit on someones lap and have them yell at me and demonize me and my sexuality. That doesn't sound like a good time.

[Cthulhu]

I'm sorry, just you're wrong. Just because someone can control most of his urges enough to make me #1 for the actual sex doesn't mean he's not sexing me and thinking of Chris Hemsworth.

That is not something I want or any woman deserves.

I agree, no woman - or man deserves that. It goes both ways. Those who don't function properly in this realm probably should abstain from commitments like marriage. I know the 'marriage cure' for homosexuality is highly discouraged in my own faith. Despite some idiotic anecdotal advice from some bishops. It makes no sense to get married and have this problem.

At the end of the day it matters on how well you know your partner and recognizing just how little influence one person can have over another. If you suspect the guy sexing you up is thinking of some dude, well, that's a sad story. Not one with a happy ending usually.

[The Xl]

A great deal of medical science started out as "questionable at best". If it works and creates happy lives - super. If it doesn't work for others - tragic.

Put the decision into the patients hands, not the Nazgul.

That sounds nice in theory, but you're kidding yourself if the patient in question, being a minor, has any say.

[GrassrootsConservative]

A great deal of medical science started out as "questionable at best". If it works and creates happy lives - super. If it doesn't work for others - tragic.

Put the decision into the patients hands, not the Nazgul.

Why do we put literally almost everything else into the parent's hands, including the right to outright take away your unborn child's chance to exist on this planet alive, but not this because it's something done by the hated Christians instead of Muslims (who wouldn't allow their children to marry outside their religion if they have a say in it) or any other group of people?

I had a friend a few years ago who was dating a Muslim girl, her dad owned a gyro and other highly-ethnic food restaurant, and when he found out they were dating he went apeshit and AFAIK did everything he could to stop them from seeing each other, just because my friend was white and not Muslim.

And the girl was 22 years old.

[Cthulhu]

That sounds nice in theory, but you're kidding yourself if the patient in question, being a minor, has any say.

Nobody can force them to talk, patients have a lot of power dude. Most just don't realize it.

In theory I should be in a padded room for mental instability. But I did some impressive verbal back flips at the VA hospital. Yeah, I lied. Impressively might I add when I spoke to a shrink there when I saw the writing on the wall.

It burns me up that I had to lie to be a free man, but I did it. Who says some gay kid couldn't do the same? Or did teenage kids quit lying all the sudden?

[Cthulhu]

Why do we put literally almost everything else into the parent's hands, including the right to outright take away your unborn child's chance to exist on this planet alive, but not this because it's something done by the hated Christians instead of Muslims (who wouldn't allow their children to marry outside their religion if they have a say in it) or any other group of people?

Hell if I know man, the paradox is amazing. I think it is satanic influence in the media and the government, but hey, that's just my thinking on it.



I had a friend a few years ago who was dating a Muslim girl, her dad owned a gyro and other highly-ethnic food restaurant, and when he found out they were dating he went apeshit and AFAIK did everything he could to stop them from seeing each other, just because my friend was white and not Muslim.

And the girl was 22 years old.

Different strokes with different folks man. To some religion is a big deal. Marrying outside the faith is a big no-no in many religions, not just islam. Ask a mormon or catholic about marrying outside the faith - it is highly discouraged.

[Mainecoons]

It is a proven fact that some homosexuality is learned behavior and some of it is on the margin and can be unlearned IF the affected person seeks treatment WHOLLY at their own volition without coercion. There are psychological/medical based treatments that can work in some situations of marginal biological or learned behavior as the result of sexual abuse.

Someone here please feel free to explain to me why it is illegal to outlaw the practice of abortion which actually involves the taking of another life but it is legal to outlaw the practice of medical and psychological counseling for homosexuals who desire and seek this sort of treatment and which involves ONLY their life.

This is a very bad precedent. It seems to be saying that some kinds of medical procedures like abortion are PC and therefore OK while other kinds that are equally valid and should only be up to the individual and their medical/psychological practioner are not PC in this age of the pro homosexual hysteria.

Worse, the medical practice that kills the unborn is a protected Constitutional right but one's right to seek licensed professional treatment for a condition which affects ONLY THE ONE INDIVIDUAL is not.

I'm telling you, the destruction of personal freedom in the U.S. is turning into a rout, folks.

[Green Arrow]

It is a proven fact that some homosexuality is learned behavior and some of it is on the margin. There are psychological/medical based treatments that can work in some situations.

Someone here please feel free to explain to me why it is illegal to outlaw the practice of abortion but it is legal to outlaw the practice of medical and psychological counseling for homosexuals who desire and seek this sort of treatment.

This is a very bad precedent. It seems to be saying that some kinds of medical procedures like abortion are PC and therefore OK while other kinds that are equally valid and should only be up to the individual and their medical/psychological practioner are not PC in this age of the pro homosexual hysteria.

Worse, the medical practice that kills the unborn is a protected Constitutional right but one's right to seek licensed professional treatment for a condition which affects ONLY THE ONE INDIVIDUAL is not.

I'm telling you, the destruction of personal freedom in the U.S. is turning into a rout, folks.

I'm opposed to both abortion and gay "conversion therapy."

[Mainecoons]

On what basis? Why is it OK for you to use the government to interfere in the private personal lives of mentally competent consenting adults?

[Mainecoons]

BTW, I'm personally opposed to abortion as well but I'm even more opposed to some government Nazi getting involved in it.

[PolWatch]

odd...the gay people I know tell me they have tried to conform to family/society 'norms'...makes me wonder why anyone would go though the hell most of 'em go through if it was optional...

[Green Arrow]

On what basis? Why is it OK for you to use the government to interfere in the private personal lives of mentally competent consenting adults?

If you read the OP article, this is about minors, not mentally competent consenting adults. But since you asked...if homosexuality is a psychological issue that needs therapy to fix, are they really mentally competent?

[Cthulhu]

odd...the gay people I know tell me they have tried to conform to family/society 'norms'...makes me wonder why anyone would go though the hell most of 'em go through if it was optional...

Social pressure, and state force are two entirely different animals.

[PolWatch]

'if homosexuality is a psychological issue that needs therapy to fix, are they really mentally competent' Homosexuality has not been classed in the DSM as a diagnosis since sometime in the 80's...so no, its not an issue that needs 'fixing'.

[Cthulhu]

If you read the OP article, this is about minors, not mentally competent consenting adults. But since you asked...if homosexuality is a psychological issue that needs therapy to fix, are they really mentally competent?

Me thinks it is a switch hitter. It can be purely psychological, or it can be physical. And of course there will be blends of the two.

Someone who looks like a girl and has female anatomy but actually has undescended testicles in lieu of ovaries makes for a tragedy, and likely a confused lesbian.

Pranks of nature are often not very funny at all. That is why this segment of society deserves compassion, not condemnation. Now if it is just 'Johnny going through a phase' because it is socially acceptable? I have much less sympathy.

[GrassrootsConservative]

If you read the OP article, this is about minors, not mentally competent consenting adults. But since you asked...if homosexuality is a psychological issue that needs therapy to fix, are they really mentally competent?

One could ask the same about "alcoholics" who sign themselves up for therapy to get better.

[Cthulhu]

'if homosexuality is a psychological issue that needs therapy to fix, are they really mentally competent' Homosexuality has not been classed in the DSM as a diagnosis since sometime in the 80's...so no, its not an issue that needs 'fixing'.

An erroneous decision might I add.

Tell me, what organism that evolves in such a way as to not pass on its genes? How could from a strictly biological stand point could this be considered a fully functioning organism? Sure it might be able to run, jump, and yell like all the other kids. But at the end of the day, life's sole purpose is to perpetuate itself.

Homosexuals don't do this. It is a mental disorder, with varied and debated origins for sure, but a mental disorder all the same. I see them the same as I do a person born without legs - broken in a way.

Now if we discovered a way to give said legless man a set of legs, would we be wrong for doing so? Well, that boils down to consent I dare say.

But they are still human beings, and ought to be treated as such.

[Green Arrow]

One could ask the same about "alcoholics" who sign themselves up for therapy to get better.

I don't think alcoholics are completely mentally competent. Alcohol affects psychology, affects the mind. It's why I hold that alcoholism is a disease.

[Mainecoons]

So it is OK for those who are not fully mentally competent to seek treatment for alcoholism but it is not OK for those who are fully mentally competent to seek treatment for homosexuality?

You're really getting caught in contradictory thinking here, Green.

[Captain Obvious]

So it is OK for those who are not fully mentally competent to seek treatment for alcoholism but it is not OK for those who are fully mentally competent to seek treatment for homosexuality?

You're really getting caught in contradictory thinking here, Green.

Homosexuality isn't a disease.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Homosexuality isn't a disease.

It is according to some, Cap, as is alcoholism.

I don't think "alcoholism" is a disease. I love to drink alcohol, I think a lot of people do. Where do you draw the line that makes it a disease?

I agree that Mainecoons and I are the only consistent ones in this thread so far.

[PolWatch]

mother nature has a rotten sense of humor....a friend's daughter was born with an open spine and some kids used to make fun of the way she walked (it was miracle she could walk at all) She calmly told them that 'God made her the way she was and so must have wanted her to be that way'. I think that can be applied to a lot of people...including gays. I find it hard to understand how some people who say they are religious and preach about God's Will, have trouble accepting that His Will might be something different from what they think is normal.

[Green Arrow]

So it is OK for those who are not fully mentally competent to seek treatment for alcoholism but it is not OK for those who are fully mentally competent to seek treatment for homosexuality?

You're really getting caught in contradictory thinking here, Green.

No, I'm not. You are just missing the point. I oppose gay conversion therapy, but I specifically stated that if a consenting adult wants to voluntary seek the treatment, I have nothing to say about it. What I do have something to say about is forcing minors to undergo the therapy, which is what the OP is about.

I'm not the one that brought up alcoholism, and my point about mental competency was in response to your post.

[Cthulhu]

Homosexuality isn't a disease.

So a bad behavior can't be taught over a period of time?

Explain stockholm's syndrome then. Homosexuality isn't a disease for sure. I've never been sneezed on by a gay dude and than slept with one until I recovered.

But you can teach behavior with reward and punishment. People are quite malleable creatures.

[Green Arrow]

It is according to some, Cap, as is alcoholism.

I don't think "alcoholism" is a disease. I love to drink alcohol, I think a lot of people do. Where do you draw the line that makes it a disease?

I agree that Mainecoons and I are the only consistent ones in this thread so far.

Loving to drink alcohol and a lot of it is not alcoholism. Alcoholism is the addiction to and dependency on alcohol.

[Captain Obvious]

So a bad behavior can't be taught over a period of time?

Explain stockholm's syndrome then. Homosexuality isn't a disease for sure. I've never been sneezed on by a gay dude and than slept with one until I recovered.

But you can teach behavior with reward and punishment. People are quite malleable creatures.

Same can be said about a good behavior.

Are you assuming homosexuality is considered "bad behavior"?

And you probably then, theoretically, could teach heterosexuals to be homosexual over time, but why would anyone want to do that or have that done?

[GrassrootsConservative]

Loving to drink alcohol and a lot of it is not alcoholism. Alcoholism is the addiction to and dependency on alcohol.

I don't think anybody is dependent upon it. Are there really people who would die without it?

[Captain Obvious]

I don't think anybody is dependent upon it. Are there really people who would die without it?

In detox they administer alcohol to severely hooked addicts because they could go into withdrawal shock and die from sudden abstaining.

[Green Arrow]

I don't think anybody is dependent upon it. Are there really people who would die without it?

Yes.

[GrassrootsConservative]

In detox they administer alcohol to severely hooked addicts because they could go into withdrawal shock and die from sudden abstaining.

That's crazy. Damn. I should just stick with my weed.

[Alyosha]

'if homosexuality is a psychological issue that needs therapy to fix, are they really mentally competent' Homosexuality has not been classed in the DSM as a diagnosis since sometime in the 80's...so no, its not an issue that needs 'fixing'.

It is up to the individual to say what they think needs "fixing" about their life. If you're straight/gay and happy, then stay that way. If you want to try and "fix" it, go for it.

Sweden did this study on homosexuality (I want to say 5 years ago?) and they found if they sprayed the same sex pheromone on the someone attractive of the opposite sex then the same-sex oriented person could show signs of physical attraction and be aroused by them.

This to me says that we have a great deal to learn on this, unfortunately politicized, subject. It may also explain bisexuality insofar that the person "smells" right. Sight-based attraction, they say is "learned".

[Cthulhu]

Same can be said about a good behavior.

Fact.



Are you assuming homosexuality is considered "bad behavior"?

Yes.



And you probably then, theoretically, could teach heterosexuals to be homosexual over time, but why would anyone want to do that or have that done?

To a degree yes, you could, with some being more resistant/compliant than others.

But as to why? Well that depends on whether you believe in the existence of satan, secret combinations, and ancient death cults that have survived to the modern day.

[Captain Obvious]

That's crazy. Damn. I should just stick with my weed.

Most hospital/ER pharmacies keep alcohol, cocaine, a few other things like this for emergency detox.

[exotix]

SCOTUS says ban on gay conversion therapy ok


http://s8.tinypic.com/9ir1hl_th.jpg


http://i58.tinypic.com/a5ovr.jpg

[Green Arrow]

That's crazy. Damn. I should just stick with my weed.

I would try to just cut down on how much you drink. I rarely drink myself, even with a full bottle of whiskey in my desk. It's not because I'm afraid of becoming an alcoholic. I could have a couple drinks a day and be fine. I just don't want to tempt fate.

[Alyosha]

The only bad behavior is more of a willful act of not accepting that just as they were born gay, others were born straight and accept that boundary without saying "don't knock it til you try it". I've had several gay friends come to me about their "straight guy crush" and I said "stop, don't do it." If it's two outwardly gay dudes and they're both consenting, I don't see the bad behavior.

Straight males sometimes have this same problem with gay females.

[The Sage of Main Street]

The GOP and The SCOTUS really need to leave the Gay thing alone ... that Train has passed Choo-choo in the Poop Chute.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Via Politico (http://www.politico.com/story/2014/06/supreme-court-gay-therapy-ban-108427.html):



Not sure how I feel about state governments banning gay conversion therapy. It's certainly not a breach of constitutional protocol. At the same time, it IS (as far as I'm aware) completely voluntary. Or is it? They are minors, so their parents may be forcing them to go. If that's the case, I think the ban is justified.

Regardless, I won't shed any tears. Gay conversion therapy is absurd pseudo-science, and it doesn't just hurt gay people. Then why not ban astrology and fortune telling?

[The Sage of Main Street]

I have to agree, but that doesn't really stop it being psychological abuse. There should definitely be a ban on kids being pushed through this shit. You make it sound like some sadistic cult where the victims are humiliated to the point where they either start behaving the way they are told or commit suicide. What exactly is the therapy? Or are you afraid to let us base our opinions on facts?

[Alyosha]

Then why not ban astrology and fortune telling?

I made a similar point.

[Captain Obvious]

Sometimes I wish I was gay.

Think about it - having a partner just like me.

Sex before the football game, during halftime and then afterwards, drinking beer, fishing, all that shit.

I'd make a great gay dude, it's the sex with other dudes I can't get past though.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Looks like the next 300 is going to be really bright for the once privileged :laugh:

What goes around comes around :wink: Like Neo Jim Crow following this present era of Neo-Reconstruction?

[The Sage of Main Street]

odd...the gay people I know tell me they have tried to conform to family/society 'norms'...makes me wonder why anyone would go though the hell most of 'em go through if it was optional... Because it's an addiction.

[Cthulhu]

I made a similar point.

Yeah, but his was using esoteric slightly occultish practices. Gets more points from the peanut gallery for obscure coolness factor.

[del]

As someone who has actually been physically assaulted by an abusive (step)parent, I can tell you it's a lot fucking different.

you've gone through gay conversion therapy?

[del]

It is a proven fact that some homosexuality is learned behavior and some of it is on the margin and can be unlearned IF the affected person seeks treatment WHOLLY at their own volition without coercion. There are psychological/medical based treatments that can work in some situations of marginal biological or learned behavior as the result of sexual abuse.

Someone here please feel free to explain to me why it is illegal to outlaw the practice of abortion which actually involves the taking of another life but it is legal to outlaw the practice of medical and psychological counseling for homosexuals who desire and seek this sort of treatment and which involves ONLY their life.

This is a very bad precedent. It seems to be saying that some kinds of medical procedures like abortion are PC and therefore OK while other kinds that are equally valid and should only be up to the individual and their medical/psychological practioner are not PC in this age of the pro homosexual hysteria.

Worse, the medical practice that kills the unborn is a protected Constitutional right but one's right to seek licensed professional treatment for a condition which affects ONLY THE ONE INDIVIDUAL is not.

I'm telling you, the destruction of personal freedom in the U.S. is turning into a rout, folks.

link?

[Mainecoons]

Homosexuality isn't a disease.

Neither is pregnancy. However, homosexuality is a dysfunction and some people might chose to try and treat it rather than live with it.