Political Polarization

[Peter1469]

I don't usually agree with Peter R. Orszag (http://www.bloombergview.com/contributors/peter-r-orszag), but he is not talking about economics here (http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-07-15/do-nothing-congress-is-your-fault).


The most important problem facing our national government is political polarization, because it makes governing virtually impossible -- unless one party can dominate the House, Senate and White House.


What’s driving the problem? One view, favored by political scientist Alan Abramowitz of Emory University, is that Americans are growing more polarized and their increasingly extreme differences are reflected in Congress. Another view, associated with Morris Fiorina of Stanford University, is that polarization in Congress stems more from a disconnect between politicians and the general public. (By the way, both camps reject the view propounded on cable television: that gerrymandering is the main cause.)

[Mainecoons]

Conservatives and libertarians aren't just rolling over for the left any more. They've always been polarized and we've just let them run things. And they've run things right into the ground with the worst, most corrupt, dishonest and incompetent administration since Warren Harding.

No mas.

[del]

republicans campaign on the premise that govt doesn't work and when they get elected they do their best to prove it.

actually, the primaries drive candidates of both parties to the fringe and they never seem to come back.

[Matty]

Ha! I watched the house today try to extend the transportation bill. Shit! The democrats were having temper tantrums especially that funny dude from Oregon with his yellow bow tie and his bicycle lapel. Heads were exploding.

[Matty]

republicans campaign on the premise that govt doesn't work and when they get elected they do their best to prove it.

actually, the primaries drive candidates of both parties to the fringe and they never seem to come back.

Yes, like you democrats have done a fine job haven't ewe?

[del]

Yes, like you democrats have done a fine job haven't ewe?

i'm not a democrat, but don't let that stop you.

[Matty]

i'm not a democrat, but don't let that stop you.
That's how bad it's gotten. You all deny being democrats. Roflmao.

[Matty]

I have yet to meet a single democrat on this forum! Tsk tsk tsk.

[Private Pickle]

Conservatives and libertarians aren't just rolling over for the left any more. They've always been polarized and we've just let them run things. And they've run things right into the ground with the worst, most corrupt, dishonest and incompetent administration since Warren Harding.

No mas.

So your basically saying its the Conservative's fault...

[Redrose]

I think we have reached the breaking point. The leftist machine running the show now, have taken things too far left, much too fast. People are rejecting this slide into la la liberal land. The left bitch and moan plenty when Conservatives make some headway. But they berate us when we protest their abuses. We don't see eye to eye on many issues, religious, social, economic, foreign and domestic policy. That's nothing new. But this current administration has raised the vitriolic level to unprecedented heights. Past administrations, Bush and Clinton especially, worked with both political parties. This current president, when in front of the cameras, refers to the GOP with an attitude of ridicule, dismissiveness. He refers to them, not like they are a major, legitimate political party, representative of about half the country, he uses a tone indicative of a president speaking of an enemy, threatening America's future. He allows his party leaders to use terms such as "terrorist", "anarchist" and "un-American" to describe those who disagree with his policies. That is not how the USA is supposed to be. The half + of the USA that does not support Obama and the left, need to stick together. All of us, Republican, Conservstive Democrat, Tea Party, Libertarian must work together to break the grip of this destructive leftist menace.

[del]

That's how bad it's gotten. You all deny being democrats. Roflmao.

i never was a democrat


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC7s1DdvtuM

[Matty]

i never was a democrat


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wC7s1DdvtuM


Nobody ever was it seems!

[Dr. Who]

I have yet to meet a single democrat on this forum! Tsk tsk tsk.
It's just possible that leftists are not all Democrats and Democrats are not generally interested in debating Republicans or participating on forums that have large conservative memberships when the DU is much more amenable to their points of view. I'm leftist but not a Democrat. I find both parties are simply extensions of the business that funds their campaigns. If I subscribe to the politics of any party, it is the probably the Green Party.

[zelmo1234]

One of the reasons that we have so much trouble getting things done, is we don't listen to other politicians anymore.

Watch Cspan, Look at the wonderful speech's that our politicians stand up and give to ???????? Nobody!

If you want to see Washington start to work again. make them sit their ass in their seat in the chamber and listen to their fellow Americans views!

Then make them sit there ass in their committee and work out the differences.


Right now they don't listen of care what the other side says, They just call them names,

[Peter1469]

Come back = return to the tax and spend policies.....


republicans campaign on the premise that govt doesn't work and when they get elected they do their best to prove it.

actually, the primaries drive candidates of both parties to the fringe and they never seem to come back.

[Matty]

One of the reasons that we have so much trouble getting things done, is we don't listen to other politicians anymore.

Watch Cspan, Look at the wonderful speech's that our politicians stand up and give to ???????? Nobody!

If you want to see Washington start to work again. make them sit their ass in their seat in the chamber and listen to their fellow Americans views!

Then make them sit there ass in their committee and work out the differences.


Right now they don't listen of care what the other side says, They just call them names,



I do watch c span and you are exactly right.

[Libhater]

i'm not a democrat, but don't let that stop you.

Well, if you're not a democrat and you bash the Republicans, I see no reason for you to remain in this thread. You have nothing to offer, fella.

[Libhater]

What's driving the problem, you ask Peter? America has been driven by Republican/Conservative initiatives/ideologies/agendas for a very long time now, and when we get a leftist ideology of a foreign nature be it socialism, progressivism, Marxism, communism etc.--the very isms that America fought most of its wars against, then it becomes quite obvious that a split government is going to continue to have problems until we oust every last one of those leftist domestic terrorists. Where we have the most leftist, inept un-American president in our history at the helm, one would have to be almost brain dead not see the glaring differences between the two parties.

[kilgram]

What's driving the problem, you ask Peter? America has been driven by Republican/Conservative initiatives/ideologies/agendas for a very long time now, and when we get a leftist ideology of a foreign nature be it socialism, progressivism, Marxism, communism etc.--the very isms that America fought most of its wars against, then it becomes quite obvious that a split government is going to continue to have problems until we oust every last one of those leftist domestic terrorists. Where we have the most leftist, inept un-American president in our history at the helm, one would have to be almost brain dead not see the glaring differences between the two parties.
I would love that you Americans meet a real leftist government. You would shit in your pants and missing the conservatism of Obama.

[Libhater]

I would love that you Americans meet a real leftist government. You would shit in your pants and missing the conservatism of Obama.

So you would be agreeing with me that any leftist government is bad news to the point of where people will shit their pants at the very sight of it?

[Chris]

republicans campaign on the premise that govt doesn't work and when they get elected they do their best to prove it.

actually, the primaries drive candidates of both parties to the fringe and they never seem to come back.

"The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it."

~P. J. O'Rourke

[Matty]

We have no democrats but everyone voted for Obama twice! That's cool.

[Chris]

As we've seen in a lot of polls and surveys lately, the American people are losing trust in government. It holds so many promises for solutions to every problem, but never comes through. So pliticians, pundits and a relative few politicos are getting desperate in moving to extremes and blaming the other extreme. It's just a political dog and pony show. I don't think most Americans pay it much attention anymore but just go about their lives the best they can.

[Chris]

We have no democrats but everyone voted for Obama twice! That's cool.

Yea, I don't get that either. Very few admit they're Democrat or liberal or progressive or left. They're all independent moderates. lol. And yet in discussion after discussion those moderates defend Democrats or liberals or progressives or the left against the right.

[Jets]

There are a few conservative democrats. We are few in a number. :)

[PolWatch]

Politics is big money (big surprise...huh?). Publicity buys support. Hot button issues/non-issues get attention and support from contributors with an agenda (another surprise). What used to be called statesmanship (compromise) doesn't collect the kind of attention that gets contributors' support. No one is convinced by someone who beats their chest and yells and no one accepts something crammed down their throats but it will sure get 60 seconds on a media looking to fill time.

When asking where are the democrats (or republicans) on the forum...look in the mirror. I seem to recall that everyone here who took that little poll about political leaning scored in all parties. America is the nation of individualists and no one fits into any party perfectly. I think most of us try to go with the candidate who most closely matches our beliefs because we really don't have a lot of choice (except to give up).

I hope that a lot of folks are tired of politics being treated like a football game...with a winner/loser. Its not a game. When enough people decide that we want/need elected officials that actually listen to us and work to make progress, then we will see some real changes. Compromise is not a dirty word...and a successful compromise means that both sides are unhappy because both had to concede on some points. Most children learn this lesson at an early age...we just need to remind our politicians that you don't always win and you don't always get your way 100%...most of them could use a few reminders about good manners and respect too.

"Can't we all just get along"?

[zelmo1234]

"The Democrats are the party that says government will make you smarter, taller, richer, and remove the crabgrass on your lawn. The Republicans are the party that says government doesn't work and then they get elected and prove it."

~P. J. O'Rourke

Well if they can get rid of this Crabgrass I might have to rethink my positions. :)

[Chris]

Politics is big money (big surprise...huh?). Publicity buys support. Hot button issues/non-issues get attention and support from contributors with an agenda (another surprise). What used to be called statesmanship (compromise) doesn't collect the kind of attention that gets contributors' support. No one is convinced by someone who beats their chest and yells and no one accepts something crammed down their throats but it will sure get 60 seconds on a media looking to fill time.

When asking where are the democrats (or republicans) on the forum...look in the mirror. I seem to recall that everyone here who took that little poll about political leaning scored in all parties. America is the nation of individualists and no one fits into any party perfectly. I think most of us try to go with the candidate who most closely matches our beliefs because we really don't have a lot of choice (except to give up).

I hope that a lot of folks are tired of politics being treated like a football game...with a winner/loser. Its not a game. When enough people decide that we want/need elected officials that actually listen to us and work to make progress, then we will see some real changes. Compromise is not a dirty word...and a successful compromise means that both sides are unhappy because both had to concede on some points. Most children learn this lesson at an early age...we just need to remind our politicians that you don't always win and you don't always get your way 100%...most of them could use a few reminders about good manners and respect too.

"Can't we all just get along"?


I seem to recall that everyone here who took that little poll about political leaning scored in all parties.

That was the nature of the quiz. It was also easy to look at results and see who was left or right. Problem is, most who took the quiz are already well known for their positions. Most people won't bother.

[Matty]

The bottom line is Barack Obama got elected twice. To the very great detriment of the country. Well, now we have no country. It has been destroyed.

[Mainecoons]

So your basically saying its the Conservative's fault...

If by "fault" you mean that no longer rolling over and letting the left run over us, yes I suppose we are at "fault."

[kilgram]

So you would be agreeing with me that any leftist government is bad news to the point of where people will shit their pants at the very sight of it?
People like you. Yes.

Normal people no.

People with a bit of intelligence would not have problems.

But people like you, that everything that is not of their style is leftist. Then you would stay pissing and shitting your pants, discovering what is a real government for the people and by the people.

[Mainecoons]

People with a bit of intelligence could express themselves from a higher level than the gutter.

[kilgram]

People with a bit of intelligence could express themselves from a higher level than the gutter.
Yes, but an intelligent person always go to the level of the interlocutor ;)

[del]

Come back = return to the tax and spend policies.....

come back = not catering to the various loon tunes on the fringes of both parties.

[del]

Well, if you're not a democrat and you bash the Republicans, I see no reason for you to remain in this thread. You have nothing to offer, fella.

what part of both parties confuses you, einstein?

[Common Sense]

The current batch of Republicans have done everything in their power to sabotage, delay, distract and obstruct this administration. They aren't interested in governing because they're still so fucking butthurt. They are only interested in disruption and getting elected. Regardless of the cost to the American people.

[PolWatch]

The current batch of Republicans have done everything in their power to sabotage, delay, distract and obstruct this administration. They aren't interested in governing because they're still so fucking butthurt. They are only interested in disruption and getting elected. Regardless of the cost to the American people.

That is possible...but isn't there also just as much of a possibility that some in the other party are determined to prove 'payback is h**l' and have similar goals regarding election?

[Ransom]

The current batch of Republicans have done everything in their power to sabotage, delay, distract and obstruct this administration. They aren't interested in governing because they're still so fucking butthurt. They are only interested in disruption and getting elected. Regardless of the cost to the American people.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/07/15/obamas-claim-that-the-gop-has-blocked-every-serious-idea/

Even the left leaning rag that twice endorsed Obama for President knows better than this. They gave this a three lie mark....your drivel above is equally disingenuous. A much discussed as of lately website on federal deficit spending will also give you.......the leftist extremist that you are.....what is really 'costing the American People.' All of us aren't sheep like you Common Cents. We don't drum whatever beat they tell us to drum, independent minds don't think like you. We don't believe everything we read or hear, we've got common sense where others....like you.....don't. Moving on.

[Ransom]

That is possible...but isn't there also just as much of a possibility that some in the other party are determined to prove 'payback is h**l' and have similar goals regarding election?

No, it isn't possible. Don't graze on whatever manure is put in the pasture, PolWatch. Are you using your same field of 5 persons to come up with this nonsense as well. Tighten up, Junior.

[Common Sense]

That is possible...but isn't there also just as much of a possibility that some in the other party are determined to prove 'payback is h**l' and have similar goals regarding election?

Yes, that's true. The Dems aren't blameless. That being said, you can't ignore the fact that this has been the worst example of obstructionism...well ever. The Dems cooperated much more with W than the Reps are now.

...and it's true. Politics is now more about getting elected than actually governing.

[lynn]

Its the structure of government that needs to be attacked and changed. Politicians these days spend most of their time begging for funding from the elite which is why they are disconnected from the public. The public has no voice unless the public finds and funds a lobbyist who will be their voice. You are right they do not govern anymore since they have little time to do that job.

If everyone would register as an independent, this would definitely shake up the confidence of predetermining election outcomes.

[Ransom]

Yes, that's true. The Dems aren't blameless. That being said, you can't ignore the fact that this has been the worst example of obstructionism...well ever. The Dems cooperated much more with W than the Reps are now.

...and it's true. Politics is now more about getting elected than actually governing.

Evidence?

[zelmo1234]

The current batch of Republicans have done everything in their power to sabotage, delay, distract and obstruct this administration. They aren't interested in governing because they're still so fucking butthurt. They are only interested in disruption and getting elected. Regardless of the cost to the American people.

Curious; what policies of this administration should I really be supporting?

Just what do the democrats want to do that would really help get the country going?

[Common Sense]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/wp/2014/07/15/obamas-claim-that-the-gop-has-blocked-every-serious-idea/

Even the left leaning rag that twice endorsed Obama for President knows better than this. They gave this a three lie mark....your drivel above is equally disingenuous. A much discussed as of lately website on federal deficit spending will also give you.......the leftist extremist that you are.....what is really 'costing the American People.' All of us aren't sheep like you Common Cents. We don't drum whatever beat they tell us to drum, independent minds don't think like you. We don't believe everything we read or hear, we've got common sense where others....like you.....don't. Moving on.

The post was left leaning...it no longer is.

I'm independent...I see this for what it is. Your baseless allegations and ad hom bullshit doesn't phase me. You may see me as a "leftists extremist", probably because you're a partisan hack. I'm no extremist.

Save your insults for someone who takes you seriously.

[Ransom]

March 6, 2001.....two months after the President who Democrats claimed was selected and not elected(speaking of opposition we've never seen)

WASHINGTON {AP}— Democratic opposition to President Bush's $1.6 trillion tax cut hardened Tuesday, as many lawmakers showed resentment at what they perceived as heavy-handed tactics by the administration and Bush's Republican allies in Congress.

[Ransom]

The post was left leaning...it no longer is.

I'm independent...I see this for what it is. Your baseless allegations and ad hom bullshit doesn't phase me. You may see me as a "leftists extremist", probably because you're a partisan hack. I'm no extremist.

Save your insults for someone who takes you seriously.

:biglaugh:

[Polecat]

The government is incapable of self control and needs some discipline. So the people need to put it over their knee. Short of torches & pitch forks how are we to do this? I say a good start would be to remove ALL Republicans & Democrats from D.C. entirely. Then bar the Madison Avenue mind control bastards from the electoral process. We need people there that were selected on their merit. Not how much money they can hustle up to pay for a campaign of BS to smother the ignorant masses with.

[zelmo1234]

Yes, that's true. The Dems aren't blameless. That being said, you can't ignore the fact that this has been the worst example of obstructionism...well ever. The Dems cooperated much more with W than the Reps are now.

...and it's true. Politics is now more about getting elected than actually governing.

What policies have been obstructed?

[Ransom]

The post was left leaning...it no longer is.

I'm independent...I see this for what it is. Your baseless allegations and ad hom bullshit doesn't phase me. You may see me as a "leftists extremist", probably because you're a partisan hack. I'm no extremist.

Save your insults for someone who takes you seriously.

And regardelss of where the Post is now, the bullshit you're trying to sell here they called a lie. So is your utter donkey dung concerning opposition.

[Ransom]

Dec 2005
WASHINGTON — With time running out for Congress this year, Democrats are displaying rare unity and influencing the legislative agenda in ways that were unimaginable during President Bush's first term.
Their cohesion, together with rebellion from some moderate and maverick Republicans, was evident yesterday as lawmakers continued to frustrate Bush's agenda on antiterrorism legislation, foreign-detainee policies, and oil drilling in Alaska's wildlife refuge.

[zelmo1234]

The post was left leaning...it no longer is.

I'm independent...I see this for what it is. Your baseless allegations and ad hom bullshit doesn't phase me. You may see me as a "leftists extremist", probably because you're a partisan hack. I'm no extremist.

Save your insults for someone who takes you seriously.

Nobody ever sees themselves as an extremist but you are fairly far to the left.

Nobody is calling themselves a Democrat, I am actually surprised that some of the Democrats running for office have not switched to independent

[Ransom]

June 2007

(Reuters) - The U.S. Senate dealt a fatal blow on Thursday to President George W. Bush's overhaul of immigration policy -- an emotional issue that has divided Americans in the run-up to next year's presidential election.

[Ransom]

Feb 2005

"President Bush should forget about privatizing Social Security. It will not happen," Senate Minority Leader Harry M. Reid (D-Nev.) told reporters. He initially said all 44 Senate Democrats had made commitments to oppose personal accounts. Later, acknowledging he had not spoken with all 44, Reid said: "I don't know of a single Democratic senator" who will back the plan.

I could go on...and on...and on. Point is.....Common Sense is full of donkey dung....and anyone claiming Obama is being opposed.....in a manner that hasn't even been seen....is full of absolute shit. Throw your shit out here on the glass, Leftists. And I'll roll it up for you......and light it for you as well. Your bullcrap don't pass the smell test.....why not put it in another petri dish and see what grows. Moving f'n on.

[Mainecoons]

The current batch of Republicans have done everything in their power to sabotage, delay, distract and obstruct this administration. They aren't interested in governing because they're still so fucking butthurt. They are only interested in disruption and getting elected. Regardless of the cost to the American people.

Yeah, that's why Reid keeps the Senate from voting on all those bills he's been sent. Those Republicans are also the blame for all those inflammatory statements coming out of Obama's smart ass mouth. They're also responsible for all his lawbreaking.

You should stick to Canada where you live, you don't know jack shit about the U.S. and frankly your continued acting like some sort of expert on someone else's country is getting tiresome.

[Common Sense]

Curious; what policies of this administration should I really be supporting?

Just what do the democrats want to do that would really help get the country going?

Here are some bills that have been obstructed by the Republicans...

Keep Student Loans Affordable Act of 2013

Student Loan Affordability Act

Bring Jobs Home Act

Small Business Jobs and Tax Relief Act

Creating American Jobs and Ending Offshoring Act
Benefits for Homeless Veterans

Disclose Act 2012


That's just a few of the hundreds...

[Common Sense]

Yeah, that's why Reid keeps the Senate from voting on all those bills he's been sent. Those Republicans are also the blame for all those inflammatory statements coming out of Obama's smart ass mouth. They're also responsible for all his lawbreaking.

You should stick to Canada where you live, you don't know jack shit about the U.S. and frankly your continued acting like some sort of expert on someone else's country is getting tiresome.

Then put me on ignore or stfu...I'm sick of you and muttly's constant bitching about my nationality. Tiresome is right.

[zelmo1234]

Yeah, that's why Reid keeps the Senate from voting on all those bills he's been sent. Those Republicans are also the blame for all those inflammatory statements coming out of Obama's smart ass mouth. They're also responsible for all his lawbreaking.

You should stick to Canada where you live, you don't know jack shit about the U.S. and frankly your continued acting like some sort of expert on someone else's country is getting tiresome.

Unfortunately, most foreigners know more about the USA and US history than the youth of our own nation. They are purposely not taught about American Exceptionalism and the founding of the country! They are not taught abut the American dream and what rights they have

This is done willingly and on purpose.

It is much easier to take away something that you did not know you had, than to pry It away from people that fight for it!

[zelmo1234]

Then put me on ignore or stfu...I'm sick of you and muttly's constant bitching about my nationality. Tiresome is right.

Oh! go watch a Hockey game and chill out!

[Common Sense]

Oh! go watch a Hockey game and chill out!

It's summer...and I don't really watch hockey.


I'm getting tired of two asshats constantly telling me to fuck off because of my nationality. It seems it's fine to be Canadian, as long as you tow the line and don't say things that many disagree with.

[Chris]

come back = not catering to the various loon tunes on the fringes of both parties.


Agree, it's mainly a clash between partisans.

[Common Sense]

Unfortunately, most foreigners know more about the USA and US history than the youth of our own nation. They are purposely not taught about American Exceptionalism and the founding of the country! They are not taught abut the American dream and what rights they have

This is done willingly and on purpose.

It is much easier to take away something that you did not know you had, than to pry It away from people that fight for it!

Oh, you're up to date on American history and how it's taught in Canadian schools?

[donttread]

I don't usually agree with Peter R. Orszag (http://www.bloombergview.com/contributors/peter-r-orszag), but he is not talking about economics here (http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2014-07-15/do-nothing-congress-is-your-fault).

I'd like to add two obvious observationds
1) The Donkephant brought on the polarization
2) They are in fact one party, not two when objectively judged by their ACTIONS vs. their empty words

The answer is NOT to compromise with the failed statist regime, the answer is wholesale change

[zelmo1234]

Here are some bills that have been obstructed by the Republicans...

Keep Student Loans Affordable Act of 2013

Student Loan Affordability Act

Bring Jobs Home Act

Small Business Jobs and Tax Relief Act

Creating American Jobs and Ending Offshoring Act
Benefits for Homeless Veterans

Disclose Act 2012


That's just a few of the hundreds...



First thank you!

The student loans were nationalized by this administration and this caused the interest rates to rise! When purchasing this form the private banking sector it was to save the students money?

Surprise! The government can't run things correctly.

So now that they screwed the system up? Obama wants to be able to write off interest and the balance of loans?

We have 17.5 trillion in debt.

The republicans wanted to turn this back over to the private sector, because nobody was complaining and the government insured program was working?

Democrats want power and control over who can borrow money for collage!

So where is the compromise from the left?

The bring jobs home act is stimulus! and we just had a 700 billion dollar stimulus that failed. So the republicans added a tax holiday on bring profits earned over seas back into the USA which would cause about 2 trillion dollars to come back into the US economy.

Democrats will have nothing to do with relaxing the 35% additional tax where is the compromise on this issue?

The homeless Veterans was addressed in the VA bill passed by the republican house and tabled in the Senate? because it called for accountability?

So you can see the system is totally broken, and we don't have leadership? that has created a vacuum and the only thing we have is my way or the highway!


Our constitution is designed so that if there is NO compromise, then nothing gets done!

[Mainecoons]

It's summer...and I don't really watch hockey.


I'm getting tired of two asshats constantly telling me to fuck off because of my nationality. It seems it's fine to be Canadian, as long as you tow the line and don't say things that many disagree with.

I can see that your mother didn't wash your mouth out with soap when she needed to.

Basically, everything you listed involved spending money the U.S. doesn't have. It is particularly ironic for some Canadian to tell Americans to run deficits while at the same time his own country is busy paying down theirs and/or not adding to them.

Student loans have already been identified as the next bubble to blow down here. You've unwittingly given us a classic example of just how leftist programs end up. This one in particular has allowed these colleges to jack up tuition rates far faster than inflation for obviously inferior educations and has saddled an entire generation of American with debts they can't begin to pay off. So now liberals propose to solve that problem by printing money to pay off the bad debts.

You should count yourself lucky that your own country doesn't adopt your stupid, leftist ideas. It gives you the luxury of preaching them to someone else's country. Fortunately, idiots like you are in the minority up there.

[zelmo1234]

Oh, you're up to date on American history and how it's taught in Canadian schools?

What I was trying to say is that it is likely that you do know more about our history than many Americans

[zelmo1234]

It's summer...and I don't really watch hockey.


I'm getting tired of two asshats constantly telling me to fuck off because of my nationality. It seems it's fine to be Canadian, as long as you tow the line and don't say things that many disagree with.

Can't you lose your citizenship for saying that you don't watch Hockey? :) I was just messing with you!

[Polecat]

Here are some bills that have been obstructed by the Republicans...

Keep Student Loans Affordable Act of 2013

Student Loan Affordability Act

Bring Jobs Home Act

Small Business Jobs and Tax Relief Act

Creating American Jobs and Ending Offshoring Act
Benefits for Homeless Veterans

Disclose Act 2012


That's just a few of the hundreds...



To be fair. Those Bills have warm & fuzzy sounding names but the meat & potatoes in them just amounted to pretty much another big hand out. This has been the case for most of the programs that are supposed to make things better.

[Polecat]

Can't you lose your citizenship for saying that you don't watch Hockey? :) I was just messing with you!

That's why he has all those guns. You can't say that about hockey up there.

[Ransom]

Here are some bills that have been obstructed by the Republicans...

Keep Student Loans Affordable Act of 2013

Student Loan Affordability Act

Bring Jobs Home Act

Small Business Jobs and Tax Relief Act

Creating American Jobs and Ending Offshoring Act
Benefits for Homeless Veterans

Disclose Act 2012


That's just a few of the hundreds...



And that's how you define unprecedented opposition?

[Mainecoons]

What I was trying to say is that it is likely that you do know more about our history than many Americans

He slept through those classes.

[Justme]

I have yet to meet a single democrat on this forum! Tsk tsk tsk.

Rest assured that you have ow met one on this forum.

[Common Sense]

I can see that your mother didn't wash your mouth out with soap when she needed to.

Basically, everything you listed involved spending money the U.S. doesn't have. It is particularly ironic for some Canadian to tell Americans to run deficits while at the same time his own country is busy paying down theirs and/or not adding to them.

Student loans have already been identified as the next bubble to blow down here. You've unwittingly given us a classic example of just how leftist programs end up. This one in particular has allowed these colleges to jack up tuition rates far faster than inflation for obviously inferior educations and has saddled an entire generation of American with debts they can't begin to pay off. So now liberals propose to solve that problem by printing money to pay off the bad debts.

You should count yourself lucky that your own country doesn't adopt your stupid, leftist ideas. It gives you the luxury of preaching them to someone else's country. Fortunately, idiots like you are in the minority up there.

Discuss Canada all you want. I'm not some hyper partisan hack crying you can't. Canada, like the US isn't really paying off our debt. Leftist ideas? Like universal healthcare, higher taxes, stricter gun laws, more open immigration, subsidized education?

I'm not preaching, I'm just commenting. It's just a forum...we're not writing policy here. If you can't do that without attacking me...then yes I'll use foul language. You deserve it. You may not swear, but you're being foul.

Idiots like me? Go fuck yourself.

[Mainecoons]

Yes. You're our new window on the Daily Kos and other similarly credible leftist tomes.

Just what we needed. A Cigar without the humor.

[Matty]

Rest assured that you have ow met one on this forum.


Happy to meet you. You seem to be the only one! :) well except for Bones who comes by infrequently.

[Mainecoons]

Discuss Canada all you want. I'm not some hyper partisan hack crying you can't. Canada, like the US isn't really paying off our debt. Leftist ideas? Like universal healthcare, higher taxes, stricter gun laws, more open immigration, subsidized education?

I'm not preaching, I'm just commenting. It's just a forum...we're not writing policy here. If you can't do that without attacking me...then yes I'll use foul language. You deserve it. You may not swear, but you're being foul.

You're arrogant, ignorant and potty mouthed. I'm just commenting. :rofl:

[Common Sense]

Yes. You're our new window on the Daily Kos and other similarly credible leftist tomes.

Just what we needed. A Cigar without the humor.

Funny, I don't read any of those lefty sites...

[Common Sense]

You're arrogant, ignorant and potty mouthed. I'm just commenting. :rofl:

Arrogant? Moi? Hello kettle...

[Justme]

Would folks here agree hat there is a distinct difference etween "conservatives" and right win ideologues?

[Justme]

Definitions

Conservative:
noun


1.
a person who is averse to change and holds to traditional values and attitudes, typically in relation to politics.

ideologue: Show IPA
nouna person who zealously advocates an ideology.

[Polecat]

When you say right wing are thinking of the KKK, or maybe Nazi groups? Conservatives in general are not that rabid. If fact they tend to be a lot like liberals with respect to thinking it is ok to jamb their ideology down everybody's throat. We could all do with a lot less shoving around.

[Ransom]

Discuss Canada all you want. I'm not some hyper partisan hack crying you can't. Canada, like the US isn't really paying off our debt.

If you come in here whining that Obama has faced unprecedented opposition, then yer a partisan hack.....of the hyper variety...because that's a bullshit statement. It is what it is, sorry.


Leftist ideas? Like universal healthcare, higher taxes, stricter gun laws, more open immigration, subsidized education?

Exactly. Universal health care, higher taxes, opposition to the bill of rights, and opposition to private school solutions are leftists ldeals.


I'm not preaching, I'm just commenting. It's just a forum...we're not writing policy here. If you can't do that without attacking me...then yes I'll use foul language. You deserve it. You may not swear, but you're being foul.

You're not commenting, you're regurgitating nonsense you read somewhere and it's costing you integrity points.


Idiots like me? Go fuck yourself.

If it walks like a f'n duck....CS.....and it talks like a f'n duck.....CS...then CS...it's most probably a f'n duck. Real real sorry.

[Common Sense]

If you come in here whining that Obama has faced unprecedented opposition, then yer a partisan hack.....of the hyper variety...because that's a bullshit statement. It is what it is, sorry.



Exactly. Universal health care, higher taxes, opposition to the bill of rights, and opposition to private school solutions are leftists ldeals.



You're not commenting, you're regurgitating nonsense you read somewhere and it's costing you integrity points.



If it walks like a f'n duck....CS.....and it talks like a f'n duck.....CS...then CS...it's most probably a f'n duck. Real real sorry.

It has been unprecedented opposition (at least in the last 50 years). That's just a fact.

I don't think you understand the second point you made. Re read the conversation.

I'm not regurgitating anything...other than facts.

like I said before, the ad hom shit is pretty sad. It only shows anger and desperation on you and your ilks part.

[Mainecoons]

Funny, I don't read any of those lefty sites...

You mean you parrot them totally out of your vivid imagination?

I'm impressed! LSD?

[Common Sense]

You mean you parrot them totally out of your vivid imagination?

I'm impressed! LSD?

Magic mushrooms.

My opinions are my own. Just because you have right wing viewpoints supported by right wing talking points, does that mean you are being spoon fed? I don't accuse you...yet you feel the need to.

[Ransom]

It has been unprecedented opposition (at least in the last 50 years). That's just a fact.

That's just bullshit you believe is fact because you read it somewhere.


I don't think you understand the second point you made. Re read the conversation.

I think the second point I made was that you're a Leftist. And I understand that quite well, Leftist.


I'm not regurgitating anything...other than facts.

You're unaware of the opposition to Bush, you're regurgitating talking points you heard somewhere, you're a sheep, CS. We all already know that, move on.


like I said before, the ad hom shit is pretty sad. It only shows anger and desperation on you and your ilks part.

And like I said..if it walks and talks like a duck...it's a duck. Quack quack, Common Sense.

[Ransom]

Amazing a Canadian understands oppositon levels to the US Presidential policies over the last 50 years.

Quack f'n quack.

[Mainecoons]

Magic mushrooms.

My opinions are my own. Just because you have right wing viewpoints supported by right wing talking points, does that mean you are being spoon fed? I don't accuse you...yet you feel the need to.

Damn yes. Every time you turn around, I'm posting references from those right wing sources like PEW, WashPo, Time, Huffington, LA Times. All those right wing nuts.

You are so full of shit it runs out your ears. If you are in the process of becoming a great success it must be as a message board troll. Is the pay good? If not, check with Cigar, he makes the big bucks doing this.

:rofl:

[Mainecoons]

BTW, genius, see if you can compare these two graphs and figure out what they are telling you:\

http://runningofthebulls.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451986b69e2010536fc9ad6970c-450wi

http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/4beaf1cc7f8b9afb735e0300/us-budget-deficit-is-largest-ever-in-april.jpg

[Common Sense]

That's just bullshit you believe is fact because you read it somewhere.



I think the second point I made was that you're a Leftist. And I understand that quite well, Leftist.



You're unaware of the opposition to Bush, you're regurgitating talking points you heard somewhere, you're a sheep, CS. We all already know that, move on.



And like I said..if it walks and talks like a duck...it's a duck. Quack quack, Common Sense.

We all get our opinions from things we observe, read, etc.. You're no different.

Again, re read that conversation. You still miss the point.

I'm well aware of the opposition to Bush. It was juvenile and hyperbolic...but nothing compared to the current situation.

I'm left wing...that's true. But I'm not a far leftist. I'm a capitalist for one thing. I'm a business owner, tax payer and a gun owner. Yeah, real commie.

[Chris]

Magic mushrooms.

My opinions are my own. Just because you have right wing viewpoints supported by right wing talking points, does that mean you are being spoon fed? I don't accuse you...yet you feel the need to.


This seems to be a standard argument of yours, to attack the messenger rather than address the message, simply because you imagine it to just be right-wing talking points. You might think it clever, but you're really just raising a white flag.

[Common Sense]

Damn yes. Every time you turn around, I'm posting references from those right wing sources like PEW, WashPo, Time, Huffington, LA Times. All those right wing nuts.

You are so full of shit it runs out your ears. If you are in the process of becoming a great success it must be as a message board troll. Is the pay good? If not, check with Cigar, he makes the big bucks doing this.

:rofl:

You missed the point. That's fine.

Keep laughing idiot....

[Chris]

Also interesting, common sense, you argue in one post that "My opinions are my own." And then in the next post contradict yourself with "We all get our opinions from things we observe, read, etc.."

[Common Sense]

This seems to be a standard argument of yours, to attack the messenger rather than address the message, simply because you imagine it to just be right-wing talking points. You might think it clever, but you're really just raising a white flag.

Again, you misunderstand what you've read. Seems to be a thing going around.

[Common Sense]

Also interesting, common sense, you argue in one post that "My opinions are my own." And then in the next post contradict yourself with "We all get our opinions from things we observe, read, etc.."

That's not a contradiction. We develop our opinions from the information we receive and the filter we see them through. That's just a fact. You can't have an opinion on things if you have no information to base said opinion. I may not have phrased it correctly, sure. But it's pretty clear.

[Mainecoons]

Yep and yours seem to come straight out of Talking Points Memo.

Try broadening your reading horizons and developing a little humility about your grandiose sense of understanding the USA. It isn't Canada south.

[Captain Obvious]

Again, you misunderstand what you've read. Seems to be a thing going around.

No, he knows what he's doing.

He's basically just putting words in your mouth, it's part of his trolling tactic.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/52604934.jpg

[Common Sense]

No, he knows what he's doing.

He's basically just putting words in your mouth, it's part of his trolling tactic.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/52604934.jpg


They all seem to like doing that. An angry and irrational bunch.

[Chris]

Again, you misunderstand what you've read. Seems to be a thing going around.

I've noticed that seems to be another common dissembling of yours. Isn't it on you to either state things so people understand, or correct them when they do, rather than leave it as you just don't understand. Sound like the familiar refrain it's just not fair.

[Chris]

That's not a contradiction. We develop our opinions from the information we receive and the filter we see them through. That's just a fact. You can't have an opinion on things if you have no information to base said opinion. I may not have phrased it correctly, sure. But it's pretty clear.

Agree, therefore our opinions are not just our own. It's clear now that you have clarified. Thanks.

[Chris]

No, he knows what he's doing.

He's basically just putting words in your mouth, it's part of his trolling tactic.

http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/52604934.jpg



That's odd when common sense and I just agreed, captain blowhard.

http://i.snag.gy/oAfVS.jpg

[Chris]

They all seem to like doing that. An angry and irrational bunch.

So we didn't just, after your clarification, agree on the source of opinions?

What was angry and irrational about that?

[Common Sense]

So we didn't just, after your clarification, agree on the source of opinions?

What was angry and irrational about that?

Sorry, that shouldn't have been directed at you...

[donttread]

Figures, even on a thread about polarization the blind believers refuse to hold the powers that be collectively accountable for their failures. Try doing nothing at your job and just blame it on the other shift or the "other group in those cubicles over there" and see how long you stay employed

[Mister D]

Figures, even on a thread about polarization the blind believers refuse to hold the powers that be collectively accountable for their failures. Try doing nothing at your job and just blame it on the other shift or the "other group in those cubicles over there" and see how long you stay employed

Appropriate analogy.

[Bob]

Conservatives and libertarians aren't just rolling over for the left any more. They've always been polarized and we've just let them run things. And they've run things right into the ground with the worst, most corrupt, dishonest and incompetent administration since Warren Harding.

No mas.

Criminal: Give me all of your money, and I mean every penny.

Citizen: Nope. Not one penny.

Criminal: OK, this is the compromise.

Half your money and I won't kill you.

Citizen: you mean you plan to kill me to get your way?

Criminal: yes indeed.


anyway that is the dialogue between the republicans and criminal Democrats. D's taking and Rs having to give

Then the democrats complain there is polarization.

[Chris]

Criminal: Give me all of your money, and I mean every penny.

Citizen: Nope. Not one penny.

Criminal: OK, this is the compromise.

Half your money and I won't kill you.

Citizen: you mean you plan to kill me to get your way?

Criminal: yes indeed.


anyway that is the dialogue between the republicans and criminal Democrats. D's taking and Rs having to give

Then the democrats complain there is polarization.



Actually, that's the case with any government.

[Chris]

Figures, even on a thread about polarization the blind believers refuse to hold the powers that be collectively accountable for their failures. Try doing nothing at your job and just blame it on the other shift or the "other group in those cubicles over there" and see how long you stay employed


A decade or so ago I started working at a midsize company with a large enough IT team to have a group of developers, database admins and hardware/network guys. When the system went down, the hardware group would pop up over the cube farm and blame the software group who would blame the database group who would.... They had red flashing lights overhead. It was a circus. Funny as hell, but everyone was serious, it was the other guy's fault. It took a long time of taking ownership to turn that around.

[Bob]

It has been unprecedented opposition (at least in the last 50 years). That's just a fact.

Has it never occurred to you that is because Obama is THAT lousy?

Bush and other presidents had opposition but perhaps at the time the R party was not whining like Democrats whine today. Do you know how close Clinton was to getting ANWR opened? Who stopped him. Democrats. Bush wanted to also open it. Democrats slammed the brakes on. We have a need for more oil in the Alaska pipeline but Democrats are allowing it to be choked off. @Common Sense (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1085); @Ransom (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=724)e; Mainecoons; Chris

[del]

Also interesting, common sense, you argue in one post that "My opinions are my own." And then in the next post contradict yourself with "We all get our opinions from things we observe, read, etc.."

that's not a contradiction

try harder

[Common Sense]

Has it never occurred to you that is because Obama is THAT lousy?

Bush and other presidents had opposition but perhaps at the time the R party was not whining like Democrats whine today. Do you know how close Clinton was to getting ANWR opened? Who stopped him. Democrats. Bush wanted to also open it. Democrats slammed the brakes on. We have a need for more oil in the Alaska pipeline but Democrats are allowing it to be choked off. @Common Sense (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1085); @Ransom (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=724)e; Mainecoons

You don't need Anwar...US oil production is at near record high levels.

I'm not talking about stopping one or two key measures or proposals.

[donttread]

Appropriate analogy.

Yet the voters don't seem to get it. They refuse to hold their politicians and parties to the same standards they themselves are held to every day.

[donttread]

A decade or so ago I started working at a midsize company with a large enough IT team to have a group of developers, database admins and hardware/network guys. When the system went down, the hardware group would pop up over the cube farm and blame the software group who would blame the database group who would.... They had red flashing lights overhead. It was a circus. Funny as hell, but everyone was serious, it was the other guy's fault. It took a long time of taking ownership to turn that around.

It is no less destructive in Washington than it was with your IT department . Corporate culture is a big part of it and that is up to the people to set

[Chris]

Also interesting, common sense, you argue in one post that "My opinions are my own." And then in the next post contradict yourself with "We all get our opinions from things we observe, read, etc.."


that's not a contradiction

try harder


If opinions come from others and elsewhere then they are not our own.

I think most people are lucky they come up with a single new idea in a lifetime. Instead, we recombine ideas.

[Mainecoons]

You don't need Anwar...US oil production is at near record high levels.

I'm not talking about stopping one or two key measures or proposals.

Classic example of your arrogance: You presume to tell us what we need.

You don't need oil sands either or bashing the heads of baby seals. Physician, heal thyself.

[Common Sense]

If opinions come from others and elsewhere then they are not our own.

I think most people are lucky they come up with a single new idea in a lifetime. Instead, we recombine ideas.

We take in information and interpret it though our own values, experiences and other information we've acquired. That's how we form opinions.

I came up with a unique idea...but I can't tell anyone what it is. Wheels are in motion.

[Chris]

It is no less destructive in Washington than it was with your IT department . Corporate culture is a big part of it and that is up to the people to set



True, but we did turn things around. I forget who was the first to pop up above the cubes and say oops that was my mistake and I'm going to fix it. Jaws dropped. But it caught on.

But I don't think you can change government. There's no incentive.

[Common Sense]

Classic example of your arrogance: You presume to tell us what we need.

You don't need oil sands either or bashing the heads of baby seals. Physician, heal thyself.

Of for fucks sake...you going to follow me around all day?

You want to take issue with the seal hunt or the tar sands? Be my guest. I'm not going to freak out about it like you have. Have at it...let's go. Start a thread about Canada.

[Mainecoons]

No because I don't presume to pass judgment on your country or tell you how to run it.

[Chris]

We take in information and interpret it though our own values, experiences and other information we've acquired. That's how we form opinions.

I came up with a unique idea...but I can't tell anyone what it is. Wheels are in motion.


And I'll bet it's a repeat of what dozens of others have come up with.

There are a few people around here who think their unique and tell it how it is, and yet everything comes out of them is just a repeat of other people's ideas.

We're more a product of our culture than we care to imagine.

[Common Sense]

No because I don't presume to pass judgment on your country or tell you how to run it.

Oh shit...I didn't know you ran the US. My apologies.

Like I said before, I'm free to post whatever I like and you're free to follow me around bitching like a lunatic. Or you could be sane and rational and debate topics or put me on ignore. Look at all the choices you have!

[Common Sense]

And I'll bet it's a repeat of what dozens of others have come up with.

There are a few people around here who think their unique and tell it how it is, and yet everything comes out of them is just a repeat of other people's ideas.

We're more a product of our culture than we care to imagine.

No. It's a product. I've searched patents...no one has come up with it. At least no one I can find.

[Ransom]

We all get our opinions from things we observe, read, etc.. You're no different.

Again, re read that conversation. You still miss the point.

I'm well aware of the opposition to Bush. It was juvenile and hyperbolic...but nothing compared to the current situation.

I'm left wing...that's true. But I'm not a far leftist. I'm a capitalist for one thing. I'm a business owner, tax payer and a gun owner. Yeah, real commie.

I don't believe you are aware of the opposition to Bush. It was more than juvenile and hyperbolic. It bordered on treason, if not crossing that threshold. It was nothing like compared to today. Your opinion that Obama today faces unprecedented opposition isn't accurate. I just thought I'd make you aware.

[donttread]

True, but we did turn things around. I forget who was the first to pop up above the cubes and say oops that was my mistake and I'm going to fix it. Jaws dropped. But it caught on.

But I don't think you can change government. There's no incentive.

That's where "we the People" come in

[Chris]

That's where "we the People" come in

Or walk away...

http://i.snag.gy/jRlPQ.jpg

[Chris]

No. It's a product. I've searched patents...no one has come up with it. At least no one I can find.

Good luck with it.

[Common Sense]

I don't believe you are aware of the opposition to Bush. It was more than juvenile and hyperbolic. It bordered on treason, if not crossing that threshold. It was nothing like compared to today. Your opinion that Obama today faces unprecedented opposition isn't accurate. I just thought I'd make you aware.

I'm completely aware. How could I not be? I would say it's directly comparable. However this time there is dogmatic vitriol from some seemingly normal people from middle America...not some idealistic kid who's parents are paying for him to go to art school while he reeks of patchouli and hash brownies.

You're seeing it from your side. Maybe because I'm somewhat removed I can see it from both sides. That's not to say I'm not partisan myself...but from what I've seen, the treatment of Bush, while bad, is nowhere near the treatment Obama gets. And even from politicians...not just private ideologues.

[Common Sense]

Good luck with it.

Thanks...you gotta try, right?

[Peter1469]

There are a few conservative democrats. We are few in a number. :)

The current Dem leadership purged the party (at the leadership level) of its conservatives.

[Peter1469]

Warning: All stop calling each other names. Discuss the topic.


Discuss Canada all you want. I'm not some hyper partisan hack crying you can't. Canada, like the US isn't really paying off our debt. Leftist ideas? Like universal healthcare, higher taxes, stricter gun laws, more open immigration, subsidized education?

I'm not preaching, I'm just commenting. It's just a forum...we're not writing policy here. If you can't do that without attacking me...then yes I'll use foul language. You deserve it. You may not swear, but you're being foul.

Idiots like me? Go fuck yourself.

[CreepyOldDude]

That's how bad it's gotten. You all deny being democrats. Roflmao.

I'm a Democrat. I used to be a Republican, but then the party took a turn for the stupid. Now, it's easy to tell the Dems from the Reps. The Dems are the ones that aren't morons.

[Chris]

I'm a Democrat. I used to be a Republican, but then the party took a turn for the stupid. Now, it's easy to tell the Dems from the Reps. The Dems are the ones that aren't morons.

I honestly in most cases cannot tell the difference. They're almost all a bunch of morons in DC.

[del]

If opinions come from others and elsewhere then they are not our own.

I think most people are lucky they come up with a single new idea in a lifetime. Instead, we recombine ideas.

information, not opinions, come from elsewhere to create opinions.

for example, you've read hayek and mises and think they have great ideas. that's your opinion.

i've read them and came away with a much different opinion.

the information is the same; the opinions differ.

[PolWatch]

I honestly in most cases cannot tell the difference. They're almost all a bunch of morons in DC.

Amen, brother!

[Mainecoons]

"The Dems are the ones who aren't morons."

You just can't make this shit up.

:rofl:

[Chris]

information, not opinions, come from elsewhere to create opinions.

for example, you've read hayek and mises and think they have great ideas. that's your opinion.

i've read them and came away with a much different opinion.

the information is the same; the opinions differ.


Opinions are just one type of information, del.


for example, you've read hayek and mises and think they have great ideas. that's your opinion.

You're still hung up on appealing to authority/ad hom. It's not who says something, del, but what's said is important.

[donttread]

I honestly in most cases cannot tell the difference. They're almost all a bunch of morons in DC.

The reason you can't tell the difference is despite how different they talk they all act the same

[Green Arrow]

"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty."
- George Washington (1732-1799), first American President and father of the nation

[Bob]

You don't need Anwar...US oil production is at near record high levels.

I'm not talking about stopping one or two key measures or proposals.

So long as we are forced to import oil, we need ANWR. That oil belongs to the American people yet Democrats deny it to us.

I gave a short example. I have dozens more. Obama is merely a whiner. He came to the job blaming Bush. Then whines he gets opposed.

[del]

Opinions are just one type of information, del.



You're still hung up on appealing to authority/ad hom. It's not who says something, del, but what's said is important.

whatever, dude

your inability to understand basic english isn't my problem

[Chris]

whatever, dude

your inability to understand basic english isn't my problem


Yea, whatever, dude.

[Bob]

I don't believe you are aware of the opposition to Bush. It was more than juvenile and hyperbolic. It bordered on treason, if not crossing that threshold. It was nothing like compared to today. Your opinion that Obama today faces unprecedented opposition isn't accurate. I just thought I'd make you aware.

We don't call for Obama to be tried for war crimes. Yet this is the mantra of the Democrats for Bush and Cheney. Supposedly they get away with approving the wars because they are democrats.

Then Obama pisses all over Bush who has been silent on Obama but poor Obama is so picked on. I am crying.

[Bob]

"The alternate domination of one faction over another, sharpened by the spirit of revenge, natural to party dissension, which in different ages and countries has perpetrated the most horrid enormities, is itself a frightful despotism. But this leads at length to a more formal and permanent despotism. The disorders and miseries, which result, gradually incline the minds of men to seek security and repose in the absolute power of an individual; and sooner or later the chief of some prevailing faction, more able or more fortunate than his competitors, turns this disposition to the purposes of his own elevation, on the ruins of Public Liberty."
- George Washington (1732-1799), first American President and father of the nation

George Washington is not America's first president. Try John Hanson

http://www.constitutionfacts.com/us-articles-of-confederation/john-hanson-story/

[donttread]

We don't call for Obama to be tried for war crimes. Yet this is the mantra of the Democrats for Bush and Cheney. Supposedly they get away with approving the wars because they are democrats.

Then Obama pisses all over Bush who has been silent on Obama but poor Obama is so picked on. I am crying.

I have a solution. Try all of them for murder for each American death on Iraqi soil. For starters

[Dr. Who]

We have no democrats but everyone voted for Obama twice! That's cool.
Some people voted for Obama, but most of them don't patronize this forum. This forum doesn't seem to really attract traditional Dems in large numbers, or even traditional Republicans in large numbers. Most of the membership is "other".

[Dr. Who]

Yea, I don't get that either. Very few admit they're Democrat or liberal or progressive or left. They're all independent moderates. lol. And yet in discussion after discussion those moderates defend Democrats or liberals or progressives or the left against the right.
And vice versa in many cases. Anyway, some of our lefties are not moderates at all, nor are some of our righties. Then again, people who are moderates tend to vote primarily for policies rather than parties, so they are liable to defend either side, depending on the issue.

[Matty]

Some people voted for Obama, but most of them don't patronize this forum. This forum doesn't seem to really attract traditional Dems in large numbers, or even traditional Republicans in large numbers. Most of the membership is "other".
Are you really selling the idea that most of the people on this forum either sat the election out or voted for Romney?

[Dr. Who]

Are you really selling the idea that most of the people on this forum either sat the election out or voted for Romney?
Many voted third party, particularly among the lefties. I'm not denying that we do have died in the wool Dems on the forum. We also have dedicated Republicans, but we also have quite a few Libertarians of varying stripes and other non traditional politics, including those of the international members. It might be interesting to poll the membership as to who is Dem, Rep or other and then political inclination, be it left or right.

[Justme]

information, not opinions, come from elsewhere to create opinions.

for example, you've read hayek and mises and think they have great ideas. that's your opinion.

i've read them and came away with a much different opinion.

the information is the same; the opinions differ.

Yes, many of us make inferences from facts. The problem comes when people begin treating those inferences as if they were fact and drawing further inferences from them. That seems to be standard thinking and argumentation from the US Right.

[Dr. Who]

Well, if you're not a democrat and you bash the Republicans, I see no reason for you to remain in this thread. You have nothing to offer, fella.
Don't tell other members in which thread they may post.

[Chris]

Yes, many of us make inferences from facts. The problem comes when people begin treating those inferences as if they were fact and drawing further inferences from them. That seems to be standard thinking and argumentation from the US Right.

You just did that, just, and you're on the left.

[Chris]

And vice versa in many cases. Anyway, some of our lefties are not moderates at all, nor are some of our righties. Then again, people who are moderates tend to vote primarily for policies rather than parties, so they are liable to defend either side, depending on the issue.

Not sure I see any on the right who say they're in the moderate middle.

Perfect example of what I said is this:


Are you kidding ... there's no Left anymore ... just common sense Center :laugh:

[Dr. Who]

Not sure I see any on the right who say they're in the moderate middle.

Perfect example of what I said is this:
We do have moderates on the right - among them I might include some of the Libertarians, who might well be fiscally conservative, but are socially liberal and others who are Republicans or were Republicans and are now Third Party. Right or left only means right or left of center, not how far right or left. We certainly have people who occupy the extremes of either, but many that are closer to the middle. See the Political Crowd chart.

[Peter1469]

Yes, many of us make inferences from facts. The problem comes when people begin treating those inferences as if they were fact and drawing further inferences from them. That seems to be standard thinking and argumentation from the US Right.

And the US left. :smiley:

[Chris]

We do have moderates on the right - among them I might include some of the Libertarians, who might well be fiscally conservative, but are socially liberal and others who are Republicans or were Republicans and are now Third Party. Right or left only means right or left of center, not how far right or left. We certainly have people who occupy the extremes of either, but many that are closer to the middle. See the Political Crowd chart.


Right. I'm not saying there aren't actually moderates. What I was saying was many on the left are like cigar claiming they're in the middle leaving the left seemingly vacated.

[Justme]

You just did that, just, and you're on the left.

Wrong. My inference was drawn from observations and those observations are facts not inferences.

[Chris]

Yes, many of us make inferences from facts. The problem comes when people begin treating those inferences as if they were fact and drawing further inferences from them. That seems to be standard thinking and argumentation from the US Right.


Wrong. My inference was drawn from observations and those observations are facts not inferences.


No, your inference was based on inferences about those on the right.


You also have a problem about drawing inferences from inferences for that is how knowledge is built up.

[Justme]

No, your inference was based on inferences about those on the right.


You also have a problem about drawing inferences from inferences for that is how knowledge is built up.

Yes, that is how the US Right often builds up what they call "knowledge."

[Matty]

I have observed and hence can infer that the US left are pretty much clueless.

[Mister D]

We do have moderates on the right - among them I might include some of the Libertarians, who might well be fiscally conservative, but are socially liberal and others who are Republicans or were Republicans and are now Third Party. Right or left only means right or left of center, not how far right or left. We certainly have people who occupy the extremes of either, but many that are closer to the middle. See the Political Crowd chart.

What does it mean to be far right?

[Chris]

Yes, that is how the US Right often builds up what they call "knowledge."

And the left, and scientists, and just about anyone else.

You, for example, must draw an inference in order to create and group called the US Right and then many inferences for each person you put in the group. Call all that categorization. Then you make an inference about the group you used an untold number of inferences to create. Call that a generalization about your categorization. There's also an untold number of inferences you make by excluding others from both your categorization and your generalization. And then there all the inferences required to put scare quotes around the work knowledge. To be honest, your assertion is pure inference for in the three posts you've repeated yourself you've not once yet mentioned any supposed facts you've based any of the almost infinite inferences on.

Now dissemble your way out of that.

[Justme]

And the left, and scientists, and just about anyone else.

You, for example, must draw an inference in order to create and group called the US Right and then many inferences for each person you put in the group. Call all that categorization. Then you make an inference about the group you used an untold number of inferences to create. Call that a generalization about your categorization. There's also an untold number of inferences you make by excluding others from both your categorization and your generalization. And then there all the inferences required to put scare quotes around the work knowledge. To be honest, your assertion is pure inference for in the three posts you've repeated yourself you've not once yet mentioned any supposed facts you've based any of the almost infinite inferences on.

Now dissemble your way out of that.

I don't have to "dissemble" as you have just attempted to do.


dis·sem·blediˈsembəl/
verb


conceal one's true motives, feelings, or beliefs.


I have made no attempt to conceal my true motives, feelings, or beliefs.

[Chris]

I don't have to "dissemble" as you have just attempted to do.



I have made no attempt to
conceal my true motives, feelings, or beliefs.




By digressing again you have dissembled.

[Dr. Who]

What does it mean to be far right?
Socially and fiscally very conservative. Still there are also dimensions in term of Authoritarianism and Libertarianism. So one could be extremely socially and fiscally conservative, but believe in central planning, government control, or believe in little central planning and little government interference. So anywhere between Pinochet and an anarcho capitalist.

[Justme]

By digressing again you have dissembled.

Exactly which of my true motives, feeling, or beliefs do you thionk I am attemptingto conceal?

[Chris]

Exactly which of my true motives, feeling, or beliefs do you thionk I am attemptingto conceal?

That's just it, we'll never know, will we.

[Justme]

I repeat, I am attempting to hide nothing.

BTW, does Chris's inability or refusal to answer my question indicate that he is dissembling?

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Mister D http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=691054#post691054)
What does it mean to be far right?


Socially and fiscally very conservative. Still there are also dimensions in term of Authoritarianism and Libertarianism. So one could be extremely socially and fiscally conservative, but believe in central planning, government control, or believe in little central planning and little government interference. So anywhere between Pinochet and an anarcho capitalist.

All far right means is a person is devoted and beholden to the powerful government. In the old days it was to the Monarchy.

[Dr. Who]

All far right means is a person is devoted and beholden to the powerful government. In the old days it was to the Monarchy.
Not really Bob. You can be extremely conservative, extremely individualistic and anti-authoritarian. The main factor in the authoritarian/libertarian question is who is in control and whether your opinion is imposed on others through legislation or through social pressure. One is institutionally based and the other organically based. If you support government management of human behavior, you are authoritarian, if on the other hand you would rather leave it to the general sensibilities of the community within which people live to make their own choices, whether that means businesses have the right to hire/fire, sell to or eschew customers according to their own personal beliefs or whether the community voluntarily takes care of the poor and indigent or shuns them for their own reasons, you are a libertarian. Libertarians can be left or right according to their beliefs. What they hold in common is the freedom to make those decisions themselves and not have them imposed by government. Political inclination, right or left is not influenced by the authoritarian/libertarian consideration, and people range on the authoritarian/libertarian axis as much as they do on the left/right axis.

[Green Arrow]

George Washington is not America's first president. Try John Hanson

http://www.constitutionfacts.com/us-articles-of-confederation/john-hanson-story/

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way. A completely new federal government was established with the constitution and with it, a brand new country. John Hanson's America died when the constitution was ratified.

[Mini Me]

That's how bad it's gotten. You all deny being democrats. Roflmao.

Yeah, like Libertarians denying that they are really Rethuglicans!

I really can't blame them! The shame is too great!

[Libhater]

All far right means is a person is devoted and beholden to the powerful government. In the old days it was to the Monarchy.

Wow, you don't really mean that, do you Bob? A person to the far right such as myself are just the opposite as we want to reduce government in every possible way save for its Constitutional mandate to uphold a strong military. C-mon Bob, give this one another looksee, will you?

[Chris]

Wow, you don't really mean that, do you Bob? A person to the far right such as myself are just the opposite as we want to reduce government in every possible way save for its Constitutional mandate to uphold a strong military. C-mon Bob, give this one another looksee, will you?



So what then do you call all the establishment Republicans whose only seeming purpose is to gain power and grow government?

[Libhater]

So what then do you call all the establishment Republicans whose only seeming purpose is to gain power and grow government?

You're going to have to be more specific by giving me names of people and the names of these government growth policies or programs, and after that tell me if you agree with Bob that any of the people you come up with is to be considered to be on the far right end of the political spectrum.

[Chris]

You're going to have to be more specific by giving me names of people and the names of these government growth policies or programs, and after that tell me if you agree with Bob that any of the people you come up with is to be considered to be on the far right end of the political spectrum.

So you punt dogmatically. If you were on the right you'd actually not have to ask, you would know yourself.

Bush, you know, the big government conservative, who stole thunder from liberals with NCLB, Medicare Drug Bill, immigration.

[Libhater]

So you punt dogmatically. If you were on the right you'd actually not have to ask, you would know yourself.

Bush, you know, the big government conservative, who stole thunder from liberals with NCLB, Medicare Drug Bill, immigration.

Seems to me Bush isn't in our government any longer. Try getting current with your attempt at responding to my question(s).

[Chris]

Seems to me Bush isn't in our government any longer. Try getting current with your attempt at responding to my question(s).

So you punt dogmatically again.

OK, turn to the current crop of establishment Republican Congress. What happens each time the fiscal cliff nears? Do they fight to reduce spending, and thereby reduce government, as a limited government fiscal conservative would? Why no, they do not. They fight for and comprise with at most 1-2% reductions in the rate of increased spending. That is not reducing government, it is growing government.

Again, I question how you a conservative are so dogmatically blind to these facts.

[Libhater]

So you punt dogmatically again.

OK, turn to the current crop of establishment Republican Congress. What happens each time the fiscal cliff nears? Do they fight to reduce spending, and thereby reduce government, as a limited government fiscal conservative would? Why no, they do not. They fight for and comprise with at most 1-2% reductions in the rate of increased spending. That is not reducing government, it is growing government.

Again, I question how you a conservative are so dogmatically blind to these facts.


One has to take into consideration that the Republicans only control 1 of the 2 branches of congress. Keep that in mind when you rail against this current crop of Republicans that do have their potential to fully implement true Conservative policy seriously diminished. Having said that, I never said that I was happy with this current mishmash crop of RINO Republicans to be of my liking, but I would sure rather have them in there than to have a democratically controlled House and Senate. To my original point to Bob: Bob was calling people of the 'far right' persuasion....big government spenders. Perhaps you or Bob if he's reading this can tell me of one far right Republican who would be found guilty of growing our government? I'm not talking about government funding for our military--which is a mandatory expenditure as written in the Constitution.

[Chris]

One has to take into consideration that the Republicans only control 1 of the 2 branches of congress. Keep that in mind when you rail against this current crop of Republicans that do have their potential to fully implement true Conservative policy seriously diminished. Having said that, I never said that I was happy with this current mishmash crop of RINO Republicans to be of my liking, but I would sure rather have them in there than to have a democratically controlled House and Senate. To my original point to Bob: Bob was calling people of the 'far right' persuasion....big government spenders. Perhaps you or Bob if he's reading this can tell me of one far right Republican who would be found guilty of growing our government? I'm not talking about government funding for our military--which is a mandatory expenditure as written in the Constitution.

I just gave you that, those Republicans in Congress doing exactly that, growing government. Tell you what, name one shrinking government in any measurable, significant way. You turn at bat.

[Libhater]

I just gave you that, those Republicans in Congress doing exactly that, growing government. Tell you what, name one shrinking government in any measurable, significant way. You turn at bat.

You obviously missed my point that the Republicans don't have full control of the legislating process, and thus are unable to shrink the government in any noticeable fashion. Hold on to your britches come November, and with GOD on our side and a total sweep of Republicans you'll get to see the shrinking of our government the good old Conservative way.

[Mainecoons]

You mean like they did when they had the White House AND the Congress? Let's see, they gave us a war, Homeland Security, the TSA, and more government growth than Lyndon Johnson gave us. Plus a ton of red ink.

Lib, you are just as thoroughly in denial as the leftist partisan hacks here.

[Peter1469]

You mean like they did when they had the White House AND the Congress? Let's see, they gave us a war, Homeland Security, the TSA, and more government growth than Lyndon Johnson gave us. Plus a ton of red ink.

Lib, you are just as thoroughly in denial as the leftist partisan hacks here.

Or he is a hard left plant.

[Libhater]

You mean like they did when they had the White House AND the Congress? Let's see, they gave us a war, Homeland Security, the TSA, and more government growth than Lyndon Johnson gave us. Plus a ton of red ink.

Lib, you are just as thoroughly in denial as the leftist partisan hacks here.

When exactly was it that the Republicans had both control over the White House and Congress? You just haven't been following my responses here very well. I've told the people here countless times that anything having to do with expenditures for the defense of our nation, i.e. our military shouldn't be considered a political tool (like you use it) to criticize Republicans for growing government. Military expenditures are a necessity and a mandate by our Constitution, so military spending should not be used as a political weapon against either a Dem or a Repub president. So when you or I speak of growing the government, we need to highlight all of the unnecessary spending on domestic issues, and not on our military spending. War, Homeland Security and TSA are all military affiliated, are they not? Surely you aren't suggesting we stop spending on our military, are you?

[Chris]

You obviously missed my point that the Republicans don't have full control of the legislating process, and thus are unable to shrink the government in any noticeable fashion. Hold on to your britches come November, and with GOD on our side and a total sweep of Republicans you'll get to see the shrinking of our government the good old Conservative way.

Still waiting for you to name some Reps who are conservative in the sense of making any attempt to shrink government. Outside of Tea Partiers I don't think they exist. The entire aim of the Tea Parties is to go after big government Republicans.

[Libhater]

Still waiting for you to name some Reps who are conservative in the sense of making any attempt to shrink government. Outside of Tea Partiers I don't think they exist. The entire aim of the Tea Parties is to go after big government Republicans.

How many times do I have to tell you the Republicans cannot shrink government until they have control of both Houses? Surely you don't want them to file resolutions to defund our military. When you have a Senate and a president that are so wrapped up in growing our government the good ole progressive way, the chances of the Republicans in the House shutting them down becomes an impossibility.

[Green Arrow]

How many times do I have to tell you the Republicans cannot shrink government until they have control of both Houses? Surely you don't want them to file resolutions to defund our military. When you have a Senate and a president that are so wrapped up in growing our government the good ole progressive way, the chances of the Republicans in the House shutting them down becomes an impossibility.

What happened to "god, guns, and guts"? Are you really suggesting that Republicans are too weak to pass bills that shrink government?

[Mainecoons]

When exactly was it that the Republicans had both control over the White House and Congress? You just haven't been following my responses here very well. I've told the people here countless times that anything having to do with expenditures for the defense of our nation, i.e. our military shouldn't be considered a political tool (like you use it) to criticize Republicans for growing government. Military expenditures are a necessity and a mandate by our Constitution, so military spending should not be used as a political weapon against either a Dem or a Repub president. So when you or I speak of growing the government, we need to highlight all of the unnecessary spending on domestic issues, and not on our military spending. War, Homeland Security and TSA are all military affiliated, are they not? Surely you aren't suggesting we stop spending on our military, are you?

Please tell me you're kidding. From 2001 to 2006, that's when. SIX LONG YEARS. Did you sleep through all that?

Lib, you're making the leftist know nothings look good here. :grin:

[Chris]

How many times do I have to tell you the Republicans cannot shrink government until they have control of both Houses? Surely you don't want them to file resolutions to defund our military. When you have a Senate and a president that are so wrapped up in growing our government the good ole progressive way, the chances of the Republicans in the House shutting them down becomes an impossibility.

So you can't name a Rep who wants to shrink government.

[donttread]

Yeah, keep drinking the lesser of two evils Coolaide. It has worked sooo well so far

[Jets]

Not for anything, but the national government will never shrink until the state governments have some ability to influence legislation passed in Congress. At one time the state legislatures appointed senators but it was not as powerful of a check as the framers had hoped.

My two cents.

[Chris]

Rescind the 17th amendment!

[Jets]

Rescind the 17th amendment!

I agree but with these stipulations:

Senators serve at the behest of the state legislatures and may be removed without cause.

The governor shall appoint senators if any gridlock occurs in the state legislature over appointments.

IMHO

[Green Arrow]

I agree but with these stipulations:

Senators serve at the behest of the state legislatures and may be removed without cause.

The governor shall appoint senators if any gridlock occurs in the state legislature over appointments.

IMHO

I would agree with that.

[Chris]

I agree but with these stipulations:

Senators serve at the behest of the state legislatures and may be removed without cause.

The governor shall appoint senators if any gridlock occurs in the state legislature over appointments.

IMHO


Sounds about right to me too, but I'd leave it up to each state.

[Libhater]

What happened to "god, guns, and guts"? Are you really suggesting that Republicans are too weak to pass bills that shrink government?

You don't get it either, Republicans have sent dirty harry reid numerous bills to shrink government expenditures only to have the weasel drop it from ever getting to a vote.

[The Sage of Main Street]

I repeat, I am attempting to hide nothing.

BTW, does Chris's inability or refusal to answer my question indicate that he is dissembling? No, because his mind was disassembled long ago. All the parts are lying separately on his tightly bound bookstack of Right Wing political and economic scripture. The parts of his former mind are just decorations for his shrine to Ayn Rand.

[Libhater]

Please tell me you're kidding. From 2001 to 2006, that's when. SIX LONG YEARS. Did you sleep through all that?

Lib, you're making the leftist know nothings look good here. :grin:

And pray tell what those bills were that (aside from the military) grew the government exponentially?

[The Sage of Main Street]

I agree but with these stipulations:

Senators serve at the behest of the state legislatures and may be removed without cause.

The governor shall appoint senators if any gridlock occurs in the state legislature over appointments.

IMHO What the Lizardtarians are hiding behind that anti-democratic proposal is that it is easier for their bosses to bribe 100 state legislators than millions of the state's voters.

[Mainecoons]

And pray tell what those bills were that (aside from the military) grew the government exponentially?

Look it up, genius.

[Libhater]

Look it up, genius.

There's nothing to look up, that's the point, genius. You struck out again coons. Time to hang it up I see.

[Mainecoons]

There's nothing to look up, that's the point, genius. You struck out again coons. Time to hang it up I see.

I should have known this would be too much for you:

http://mercatus.org/sites/default/files/WP0904_GAP_Spending-Under-President-George-W-Bush.pdf

See Table 2, genius.

From Cato:


But a stark difference in fiscal philosophies is evident with regard to nondefense
spending. While Reagan attacked the “destructive pattern
of runaway spending,” as he called it in his second budget,
Bush has expanded a wide array of “compassionate”
welfare state programs.

http://www.cato.org/sites/cato.org/files/pubs/pdf/tbb-0308-16.pdf

Sigh...

[Chris]

Here, libhater, are some suggestions for the big government cons you support, How to Slash the State: 14 ways to dismantle a monstrous government, one program at a time (http://reason.com/archives/2010/10/05/how-to-slash-the-state/)


Like sequels to Saw, the government just keeps coming, growing larger, more expensive, and moreappalling each year. In times of economic distress, even at the increasing risk of default, the size, scope, and cost of federal, state, and local governments continue to balloon, swallowing everything in their path. For 10 solid years, and especially since September 2008, spending has boomed, the Federal Register has exploded, and Congress altered American life at an accelerating pace.

Yet loud critics of big government—especially but not only Republican politicians—are often reduced to an awkward stammer when put on the spot by the all-important question, “So what would you cut?” Well, stammer no more.

Consider the following a Halloween-themed cheat sheet for explaining who, what, where, when, and why whole swaths of government need to be cut or euthanized outright, so that taxpayer money is spent more productively, the remaining government services perform better, and the United States can finally begin its long slow climb toward solvency.

We’ve asked analysts from the nation’s capital and around the world to offer tips and tricks for fighting off the cold, cold monster that is the state. The suggestions below are intended not as a last word but as a starting point: As in any good slasher movie, the savvy viewer will soon see potential victims everywhere.

Overhaul Medicaid

...

Bring the Troops Home

...

Erase Federal Education Spending

...

Slash State Budgets

...

End Defined-Benefit Pensions

...

Declare Defeat in the Drug War

...

Cancel the Federal Communications Commission

...

Uproot Agriculture Subsidies

...

Unplug the Department of Energy

...

Dismantle Davis-Bacon

...

Repeal the Stimulus

...

Spend Highway Funds on Highways

...

Privatize Public Lands

...

End (or at Least Audit) the Fed

...

[Ransom]

You mean like they did when they had the White House AND the Congress? Let's see, they gave us a war, Homeland Security, the TSA, and more government growth than Lyndon Johnson gave us. Plus a ton of red ink.

Lib, you are just as thoroughly in denial as the leftist partisan hacks here.

Yeah cause....our homeland was certainly secure prior to someone giving us homeland security. Investigations revealed our FBI, CIA, NSA, and military intelligence had gaps you could drive a truckload of your ignorance concerning Iraq and who really 'gave us a war.' These Intel agencies not communicating, these Cats in our country for years, the mastermind here since 1987. We clearly needed to beef up security, awareness, protect airlines, ports of transportation, etc. I won't argue the spending went up, but there was clearly a need. You'll forget, Bush also tried immigration reform, privatization of ss, drilling in the Alaskan refuges. Bush's tax cuts also increased government revenues, points forgotten in your review here.

[Libhater]

Here, libhater, are some suggestions for the big government cons you support, How to Slash the State: 14 ways to dismantle a monstrous government, one program at a time (http://reason.com/archives/2010/10/05/how-to-slash-the-state/)

Hey, I'm with you all the way, and I'm sure once the Republicans control both Houses and replace a couple of the useless Rino's in there that they will begin the long process of cleaning House by cutting out the fat. I remember in Bush's first term that he put forth a resolution to privatize 6% of Social Security which of course was voted down. Of course it was only 6% but if the truth be known we need to privatize the whole of S.S. We have to entertain private medical accounts as well. We would be wise to entertain Herman Cain's tax reduction plan as well.

[Chris]

Hey, I'm with you all the way, and I'm sure once the Republicans control both Houses and replace a couple of the useless Rino's in there that they will begin the long process of cleaning House by cutting out the fat. I remember in Bush's first term that he put forth a resolution to privatize 6% of Social Security which of course was voted down. Of course it was only 6% but if the truth be known we need to privatize the whole of S.S. We have to entertain private medical accounts as well. We would be wise to entertain Herman Cain's tax reduction plan as well.


Promises. Hop[e and change. Bush was liberal. Cain is OK.

[Green Arrow]

You don't get it either, Republicans have sent dirty harry reid numerous bills to shrink government expenditures only to have the weasel drop it from ever getting to a vote.

Really? Name them.

[Jets]

What the Lizardtarians are hiding behind that anti-democratic proposal is that it is easier for their bosses to bribe 100 state legislators than millions of the state's voters.

Unfortunately, the bribes have not stopped regardless.

[Chris]

Unfortunately, the bribes have not stopped regardless.

In fact it's gotten worse. That's the nature of democracy.

[Mainecoons]

Yeah cause....our homeland was certainly secure prior to someone giving us homeland security. Investigations revealed our FBI, CIA, NSA, and military intelligence had gaps you could drive a truckload of your ignorance concerning Iraq and who really 'gave us a war.' These Intel agencies not communicating, these Cats in our country for years, the mastermind here since 1987. We clearly needed to beef up security, awareness, protect airlines, ports of transportation, etc. I won't argue the spending went up, but there was clearly a need. You'll forget, Bush also tried immigration reform, privatization of ss, drilling in the Alaskan refuges. Bush's tax cuts also increased government revenues, points forgotten in your review here.

Yeah, and now we have the NSA spying on you, me and everyone else to the tune of over 80 billion per year and they couldn't find or stop the Boston bombers.

You shouldn't continue to argue for all that Republicrat spending, it just makes you look silly. :grin:

[Ransom]

Yeah, and now we have the NSA spying on you, me and everyone else to the tune of over 80 billion per year and they couldn't find or stop the Boston bombers.

You shouldn't continue to argue for all that Republicrat spending, it just makes you look silly. :grin:

Your assumption the homeland was secure is what caught us with our pants down in the first place, you're the definition of ignorance is bliss.