Maybe what's really wrong with American education is

[donttread]

The kids we send to it.
We have a lot of slum raised and or neglected kids that are too far behind and at the same time a lot of entitled little brats who were raised to think clothes make you cool and if THEY get in trouble its the schools fault. Neither group has been taught much respect. Many other countries have centuries of homogenous culture , less ignored and less pampered kids. In short we send too many kids to school who simply aren't ready to be there and it holds the others back and we allow the entitled to lord over the others as the "in crowd" even in elementary school . Why not? Their parents deliberately raise them with this in mind to fulfill their own childhood fantasies. Think about it you know they do.
So until we get more poor kids who can keep up and more "rich kids" who are taught a little respect for other people we WILL continue to fail.
I know, I'm an asshole for saying this but it needed to be said.
Zelmo's education thread got me thinking, its the raw materials that are either broken or at least not gelling well enough to produce a quality finished product.

[Peter1469]

True.

[donttread]

I can still remember when my son was starting 7th grade and he was stunned that they were reviewing the freakin times tables. He's a smart kid, well man now, he did make valedictorian but was never challenged which cost him a couple extra semesters when college rolled around. We're not even urban but he was in class with enough "my kid don't need no learning at home" rednecks that it dragged the whole class backwards

[PolWatch]

good point...you've given me something to think about.

[Matty]

My granddaughter is in accelerated classes, she is getting college credits while in high school. You know why? Because she cares.

[donttread]

My granddaughter is in accelerated classes, she is getting college credits while in high school. You know why? Because she cares.

Because SHE cares but also because her school district had enough bucks to have those classes.

[Blackrook]

The public school system will never be fixed until we break the power of the teacher's unions, who do all they can to thwart meaningful reforms, and don't care how much children are harmed in the process.

[Matty]

The public school system will never be fixed until we break the power of the teacher's unions, who do all they can to thwart meaningful reforms, and don't care how much children are harmed in the process.

Bingo. I live in a right to work state so that makes a difference.

[donttread]

Seriously its the kids .

[darroll]

Discipline.

[zelmo1234]

The kids we send to it.
We have a lot of slum raised and or neglected kids that are too far behind and at the same time a lot of entitled little brats who were raised to think clothes make you cool and if THEY get in trouble its the schools fault. Neither group has been taught much respect. Many other countries have centuries of homogenous culture , less ignored and less pampered kids. In short we send too many kids to school who simply aren't ready to be there and it holds the others back and we allow the entitled to lord over the others as the "in crowd" even in elementary school . Why not? Their parents deliberately raise them with this in mind to fulfill their own childhood fantasies. Think about it you know they do.
So until we get more poor kids who can keep up and more "rich kids" who are taught a little respect for other people we WILL continue to fail.
I know, I'm an asshole for saying this but it needed to be said.
Zelmo's education thread got me thinking, its the raw materials that are either broken or at least not gelling well enough to produce a quality finished product.

Thank You ! If I caused you to think, then I accomplished what I set out to do

But you pointed out a huge problem, and that is SOCIAL PROMOTION OF STUDENTS.

Not everyone is ready to start school at age 5, and not everyone can graduate at age 18

It is of my opinion that if you do not know the material it is far more cruel to promote you and have you continue to struggle than to hold you back and let you get caught up

And yes there are other out side pressures but if you challenge children and they have requirements and consequences, most will raise to the occasion, and nothing beats poverty like the understanding that you can accomplish something!

[Guerilla]

Thank You ! If I caused you to think, then I accomplished what I set out to do

But you pointed out a huge problem, and that is SOCIAL PROMOTION OF STUDENTS.

Not everyone is ready to start school at age 5, and not everyone can graduate at age 18




It is of my opinion that if you do not know the material it is far more cruel to promote you and have you continue to struggle than to hold you back and let you get caught up
I don't think the problem is that all of the kids are stupid, I think it is how the education system handles them. I think it causes them to regress.


And yes there are other out side pressures but if you challenge children and they have requirements and consequences, most will raise to the occasion, and nothing beats poverty like the understanding that you can accomplish something I agree with this though. That's why we need to start earlier, and not just force information down their throat, but help them excel as an individual in what they want to do. That's what education should really be.

I think starting in middle school we should have all kids begin to explore what they want to do. Not necessarily decide their occupation, but look at what they excel at and what they enjoy, and put them in specialized classes that teach those things. If they enjoy science or history or literature or music, then we enter them into an education centered around those things(not to say we eliminate all other subjects from their education).

An important result of this is that kids won't see education as a rigor, but something to improve themselves and further their life in a direction they want to go. Education will be viewed as a general aspect of life, rather than half the day to struggle through. This is how we get kids to excel. By getting education to fit the kids instead of conforming them to the education system. I believe kids naturally want to learn, but not with the traditional Prussian education system.

I advocate implementing this type of education around middle school because I believe kids begin to lose motivation around 5th 6th 7th grade. They begin to separate themselves from school and learning. With this I think you will see kids learning faster and better quality

[Peter1469]

This is a good idea. It is a middle ground between the current system and the more radical alternatives that I have heard about which give the kid way too much freedom to choose what they learn.


I don't think the problem is that all of the kids are stupid, I think it is how the education system handles them. I think it causes them to regress.

I agree with this though. That's why we need to start earlier, and not just force information down their throat, but help them excel as an individual in what they want to do. That's what education should really be.

I think starting in middle school we should have all kids begin to explore what they want to do. Not necessarily decide their occupation, but look at what they excel at and what they enjoy, and put them in specialized classes that teach those things. If they enjoy science or history or literature or music, then we enter them into an education centered around those things(not to say we eliminate all other subjects from their education).

An important result of this is that kids won't see education as a rigor, but something to improve themselves and further their life in a direction they want to go. Education will be viewed as a general aspect of life, rather than half the day to struggle through. This is how we get kids to excel. By getting education to fit the kids instead of conforming them to the education system. I believe kids naturally want to learn, but not with the traditional Prussian education system.

I advocate implementing this type of education around middle school because I believe kids begin to lose motivation around 5th 6th 7th grade. They begin to separate themselves from school and learning. With this I think you will see kids learning faster and better quality

[donttread]

This is a good idea. It is a middle ground between the current system and the more radical alternatives that I have heard about which give the kid way too much freedom to choose what they learn.

They're not stupid per se , just poorly taught and poorly raised at home. I will admit that our system ignores developmental windows

[Mainecoons]

It isn't just the kids.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/383109/university-wisconsin-faculty-votes-apportion-grades-race-ian-tuttle

This isn't some nut left bush league private school in liberal land. This is a major state university supported by taxpayers. Do you think the taxpayers would approve of handing out grades on the basis of race?

Liberals have wrecked public education in America.

[countryboy]

The kids we send to it.
We have a lot of slum raised and or neglected kids that are too far behind and at the same time a lot of entitled little brats who were raised to think clothes make you cool and if THEY get in trouble its the schools fault. Neither group has been taught much respect. Many other countries have centuries of homogenous culture , less ignored and less pampered kids. In short we send too many kids to school who simply aren't ready to be there and it holds the others back and we allow the entitled to lord over the others as the "in crowd" even in elementary school . Why not? Their parents deliberately raise them with this in mind to fulfill their own childhood fantasies. Think about it you know they do.
So until we get more poor kids who can keep up and more "rich kids" who are taught a little respect for other people we WILL continue to fail.
I know, I'm an asshole for saying this but it needed to be said.
Zelmo's education thread got me thinking, its the raw materials that are either broken or at least not gelling well enough to produce a quality finished product.
Obviously that's a big part of the problem. The other big problem is the NEA, which is more concerned about more pay and less work for it's members, and largely unconcerned about educating the kids.

[donttread]

Thank You ! If I caused you to think, then I accomplished what I set out to do

But you pointed out a huge problem, and that is SOCIAL PROMOTION OF STUDENTS.

Not everyone is ready to start school at age 5, and not everyone can graduate at age 18

It is of my opinion that if you do not know the material it is far more cruel to promote you and have you continue to struggle than to hold you back and let you get caught up

And yes there are other out side pressures but if you challenge children and they have requirements and consequences, most will raise to the occasion, and nothing beats poverty like the understanding that you can accomplish something!

You indeed caused me to think as you often do, which is the real value of these boards. I mean if we don't open our minds were just bored egotist listening to sound of our own keyboards, right? I agree there is much wrong with the system , developmental windows are ignored and standardized test are given too much import too early on coupled with illegal federal over sight of education and failed policy to limit bulling to name a few. However, we simply don't send in 5 year olds as ready to be molded as say Japan can with all that culture. If I'm worried about getting shot on the way home... school is the least of my problems. If my concern is having more expensive clothes than you and letting you know about it education is in the back seat. My dearly departed mother used to say that centralized schools would be the ruin of America. I used to laugh at her "old fashioned ideas" but I now see her wisdom and in fact have lived long enough to realize that centralized everything is the ruination of the country.

[texan]

It's probably the inability of people in power to understand humor to lighten situations and or handle the power. It may be the name calling that I hear everywhere which is a problem, but it is certainly isn't the f bombs cause that doesn't offend anyone. I hear these things all around on tv and radio among other places. As a country we should have clear lines for discourse.

Those are my comments on education and things we should consider.

[Guerilla]

This is a good idea. It is a middle ground between the current system and the more radical alternatives that I have heard about which give the kid way too much freedom to choose what they learn.

What are the more radical alternatives? Are they things like Hackschooling, (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/21550-The-Answer-to-America-s-Education-problem!?highlight=hackschooling)? What I suggest now is something similar to that, but less "radical". I am still working with the same basic ideas as I was though- Kids aren't dumb, we just need to make school and learning adjusted to them.

[Guerilla]

You indeed caused me to think as you often do, which is the real value of these boards. I mean if we don't open our minds were just bored egotist listening to sound of our own keyboards, right? I agree there is much wrong with the system , developmental windows are ignored and standardized test are given too much import too early on coupled with illegal federal over sight of education and failed policy to limit bulling to name a few. However, we simply don't send in 5 year olds as ready to be molded as say Japan can with all that culture. If I'm worried about getting shot on the way home... school is the least of my problems. If my concern is having more expensive clothes than you and letting you know about it education is in the back seat. My dearly departed mother used to say that centralized schools would be the ruin of America. I used to laugh at her "old fashioned ideas" but I now see her wisdom and in fact have lived long enough to realize that centralized everything is the ruination of the country.


If I'm worried about getting shot on the way home... school is the least of my problems. Yes, but if you see school as a way to further yourself and improve your life, then maybe you will work hard on your education in hopes of getting out of your dangerous environment.

If my concern is having more expensive clothes than you and letting you know about it education is in the back seat.
Yes but I think the problem isn't expensive clothes, but that our education system alienates kids and makes them disinterested in learning, which causes them to separate school from their personal life and what they deem enjoyable. Learning becomes a chore, something you do the first half of the day while you wait for school to get out so you can go home and forget about it.

Kids are struggling to escape school whether it's ditching, having your headphones in literally all day long, or worrying about your clothes and who is fitting in. The focus is not learning, but their personal life, and what they want, which they decided isn't school. That's why we need to find out how to make school fit the kids, so they see it as a way to further their own life and interests. Only then will they bring themselves to their full potential.

[Dr. Who]

Yes, but if you see school as a way to further yourself and improve your life, then maybe you will work hard on your education in hopes of getting out of your dangerous environment.

Yes but I think the problem isn't expensive clothes, but that our education system alienates kids and makes them disinterested in learning, which causes them to separate school from their personal life and what they deem enjoyable. Learning becomes a chore, something you do the first half of the day while you wait for school to get out so you can go home and forget about it.

Kids are struggling to escape school whether it's ditching, having your headphones in literally all day long, or worrying about your clothes and who is fitting in. The focus is not learning, but their personal life, and what they want, which they decided isn't school. That's why we need to find out how to make school fit the kids, so they see it as a way to further their own life and interests. Only then will they bring themselves to their full potential.
I think that part of the problem is that some teachers are not particularly good at what they do and don't really engage students when they teach. Children that don't like their teachers are less likely to pay attention to the lessons. Another problem that comes up all too often is teachers who favor boys over girls or vice versa. The children all too soon realize that there is classroom bias. Some people are just not suited to being teachers.

[Peter1469]

Obviously that's a big part of the problem. The other big problem is the NEA, which is more concerned about more pay and less work for it's members, and largely unconcerned about educating the kids. That and funneling money to the DNC.

[Peter1469]

What are the more radical alternatives? Are they things like Hackschooling, (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/21550-The-Answer-to-America-s-Education-problem!?highlight=hackschooling)? What I suggest now is something similar to that, but less "radical". I am still working with the same basic ideas as I was though- Kids aren't dumb, we just need to make school and learning adjusted to them.

Giving the kids 100% control over what they learn.

[Guerilla]

I think that part of the problem is that some teachers are not particularly good at what they do and don't really engage students when they teach. Children that don't like their teachers are less likely to pay attention to the lessons. Another problem that comes up all too often is teachers who favor boys over girls or vice versa. The children all too soon realize that there is classroom bias. Some people are just not suited to being teachers.

This is true. Some people really shouldn't be teachers, and I don't know how to go about separating the good ones from the bad ones. Being a good teacher isn't just having had good training, but for you to understand kids in general and know how to relate to individuals in a way that is meaningful, so they can keep different kids focused on the same subject matter. That is often a hard skill hard to teach.

Another problem though is the kids lack of interest. Teachers enter teaching mostly because they want to help children. When these children don't care about anything the teacher has to say, because all they want is to escape, the teachers begin to lose focus and motivation as well (I've actually heard this from a very good teacher I had). I think by changing the education system in ways I've suggested, other things will fall into place, like unmotivated teachers receiving enthusiastic kids will make them want to teach better. Again, I don't know of a good system to weed out the crappy teachers. Open to any and all suggestions.

[The Sage of Main Street]

What are the more radical alternatives? Are they things like Hackschooling, (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/21550-The-Answer-to-America-s-Education-problem!?highlight=hackschooling)? What I suggest now is something similar to that, but less "radical". I am still working with the same basic ideas as I was though- Kids aren't dumb, we just need to make school and learning adjusted to them. There is no naturally appealing reward in doing well in school. Getting a good job 5 to 20 years down the line doesn't motivate.

And this idea of studying "what they want" makes them wannabes. Try that idea on wanting to become a pro football player. It's what the coaches want, natural talent, that should be the determining factor. And people must be rewarded up front. In our class-biased indentured servitude education, people are punished up front and only rewarded after that unnecessary sacrifice. Getting a job by going 4 or more years without a job is so stupid that it shows the hopelessness of getting through to such a brainwashed nation.

[Guerilla]

There is no naturally appealing reward in doing well in school. Getting a good job 5 to 20 years down the line doesn't motivate.

And this idea of studying "what they want" makes them wannabes. Try that idea on wanting to become a pro football player. It's what the coaches want, natural talent, that should be the determining factor. And people must be rewarded up front. In our class-biased indentured servitude education, people are punished up front and only rewarded after that unnecessary sacrifice. Getting a job by going 4 or more years without a job is so stupid that it shows the hopelessness of getting through to such a brainwashed nation.
It's not the hope of a job in 5-20 years that motivate them, it's teaching things that interest them as to make them more enthusiastic about their education.

Another great aspect of what I'm suggesting is that I think it will shorten the average time in school by a lot. It sort of mixes college with general education around middle school, because after middle school your education should already be geared toward what you want to do in life. Letting kids wait until they are 18 to decide is way too long, by that time many have already lost motivation and enthusiasm.

[Peter1469]

How many people know what they want to do as a career while in middle school. I never figured it out until half way through college. And I did 4 years in the army before I started college. So about the age of 23.


It's not the hope of a job in 5-20 years that motivate them, it's teaching things that interest them as to make them more enthusiastic about their education.

Another great aspect of what I'm suggesting is that I think it will shorten the average time in school by a lot. It sort of mixes college with general education around middle school, because after middle school your education should already be geared toward what you want to do in life. Letting kids wait until they are 18 to decide is way too long, by that time many have already lost motivation and enthusiasm.

[Dr. Who]

How many people know what they want to do as a career while in middle school. I never figured it out until half way through college. And I did 4 years in the army before I started college. So about the age of 23.
Did you decide that the law was your passion, or was it an intellectual decision?

[Peter1469]

Did you decide that the law was your passion, or was it an intellectual decision?

Intellectual decision.

[Mister D]

http://www.woolfmedia.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/800-pound-gorilla.jpg

[Guerilla]

How many people know what they want to do as a career while in middle school. I never figured it out until half way through college. And I did 4 years in the army before I started college. So about the age of 23.

You don't necessarily choose an occupation, but you and your parents/teachers could look at what you enjoy the most and what you excel at, and from there all of you can choose an education system geared toward yourself, maybe based on a subject. Obviously some individuals will fit in the same category and can be in the same class and taught together with it still being individually based. This is another bonus, because kids are with others who are interested in the same things as them.

If the kid doesn't enjoy that and it becomes obvious to everyone kid doesn't belong in that education system, then you change it. The point is to find out early on what their interests and passions are, because ideally "you find a job you enjoy and you won't have to work a day in your life"; since that is the goal, we give them an education that prepares them for that job based on an assessment of what they enjoy and excel at. Again, we don't choose an occupation but more like a field of study. Which is basically like what college should be. Except we start out with a larger field of study than a college.

[Guerilla]

Intellectual decision.

:sad:

[Dr. Who]

Intellectual decision.
I think that goes to the point that guerilla is making. Perhaps kids need more exposure to the kind of subject matter that would help them discover what it is that they want to do with the rest of their lives. Then their decisions would be more passionate and less intellectual. When you have to spend the next 40 odd years doing something, it should be something that you truly enjoy.

[Guerilla]

http://www.woolfmedia.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/800-pound-gorilla.jpg

lol I think I just got it..

Ya peters education would've had much "outdoor learning". So would codename

[The Sage of Main Street]

It's not the hope of a job in 5-20 years that motivate them, it's teaching things that interest them as to make them more enthusiastic about their education.

Another great aspect of what I'm suggesting is that I think it will shorten the average time in school by a lot. It sort of mixes college with general education around middle school, because after middle school your education should already be geared toward what you want to do in life. Letting kids wait until they are 18 to decide is way too long, by that time many have already lost motivation and enthusiasm. You're being generic, which shows how much you hate the talented. It doesn't matter what the students want to do; it's what their talents at birth determine they are needed for. In order to get superior minds in superior positions, the world does owe a living to them. We owe nothing to those who own the world.

This collapsing system is upside-down; the talented should make the demands, not the rich parasites who freeload off them. If they have any self-respect, they will force the rulers to change pre-college education to where they are looked up to by their peers just like star athletes are now. Since they are the real motor of the economy, not inert capital, they will demand to be paid in college more than they could make by getting a full-time job at ages 18 to their 20s. A Seed Does Not Grow in Sand.

[The Sage of Main Street]

http://www.woolfmedia.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/800-pound-gorilla.jpg King Apes, which means that their heirs are also subhuman predators. They manage their and their Daddies' businesses by grunting, howling at the moon, pounding their chest, and swatting their workers with their paws, after Pa's paws have put them in their place.

[The Sage of Main Street]

You don't necessarily choose an occupation, but you and your parents/teachers could look at what you enjoy the most and what you excel at, and from there all of you can choose an education system geared toward yourself, maybe based on a subject. Obviously some individuals will fit in the same category and can be in the same class and taught together with it still being individually based. This is another bonus, because kids are with others who are interested in the same things as them.

If the kid doesn't enjoy that and it becomes obvious to everyone the kid doesn't belong in that education system, then you change it. The point is to find out early on what their interests and passions are, because ideally "you find a job you enjoy and you won't have to work a day in your life"; since that is the goal, we give them an education that prepares them for that job based on an assessment of what they enjoy and excel at. Again, we don't choose an occupation but more like a field of study. Which is basically like what college should be. Except we start out with a larger field of study than a college. Interest is sparked by immediate material reward, not by wandering and unstable self-indulgent escapism.

We should eliminate college altogether; it is an obsolete finishing school for the spawn of the aristocracy. Businesses should choose the most talented and teach them only what is needed for the job. Leisure-class Liberal Arts aren't to broaden the mind; they are imposed only to make it more difficult and time-wasting for students who have little money to live on. Thorstein Veblen called it "conspicuous consumption": bragging by the preppies that their fat allowance meant that they could afford to waste time on useless subjects. That's where all the fake prestige of "non-commercial" subjects comes from. They only have snob value, which is worthless and inevitably becomes decadent and silly.

[The Sage of Main Street]

I think that goes to the point that guerilla is making. Perhaps kids need more exposure to the kind of subject matter that would help them discover what it is that they want to do with the rest of their lives. Then their decisions would be more passionate and less intellectual. When you have to spend the next 40 odd years doing something, it should be something that you truly enjoy. Instead of subjects, I would give them essays for reading comprehension that also describe careers. But again, you're being generic. The students shouldn't choose; their talents should restrict them to certain fields. Otherwise, you're going to put inferior wannabes in positions that are owed to can-bes.

[Dr. Who]

Instead of subjects, I would give them essays for reading comprehension that also describe careers. But again, you're being generic. The students shouldn't choose; their talents should restrict them to certain fields. Otherwise, you're going to put inferior wannabes in positions that are owed to can-bes.
I agree that simply liking something doesn't necessarily translate to aptitude, and aptitude needs to be a consideration as does some degree of practicality, in terms of there actually being potential to earn a living at the end of the day.

[Rebel Son]

Zelmo's education thread got me thinking, its the raw materials that are either broken or at least not gelling well enough to produce a quality finished product.

Problem is that kids today feel entitled,,,,to everything. Parents are mainly to blame, upper, middle, and low, incomes. Everyone wants a better life for their children, but at what cost? Giving them everything really does nothing to prepare them for the real world, a place where nothing is given to you unless you are on welfare and that is where abunch will end up because of no work ethic.

[Peter1469]

Problem is that kids today feel entitled,,,,to everything. Parents are mainly to blame, upper, middle, and low, incomes. Everyone wants a better life for their children, but at what cost? Giving them everything really does nothing to prepare them for the real world, a place where nothing is given to you unless you are on welfare and that is where abunch will end up because of no work ethic.

And welfare will end when the current crop of politicians destroy the economy.

[Guerilla]

You're being generic, which shows how much you hate the talented. It doesn't matter what the students want to do; it's what their talents at birth determine they are needed for. In order to get superior minds in superior positions, the world does owe a living to them. We owe nothing to those who own the world.

This collapsing system is upside-down; the talented should make the demands, not the rich parasites who freeload off them. If they have any self-respect, they will force the rulers to change pre-college education to where they are looked up to by their peers just like star athletes are now. Since they are the real motor of the economy, not inert capital, they will demand to be paid in college more than they could make by getting a full-time job at ages 18 to their 20s. A Seed Does Not Grow in Sand.

Kids will naturally express their talents, we just need to learn to help grow those talents and passions by giving them direction and motivation.


If they have any self-respect, they will force the rulers to change pre-college education to where they are looked up to by their peers just like star athletes are now. In a way that is what I'm suggesting. My system will end up bringing like-minded children together. I think this will lead to more respect for each other and less of "the priveledged coolies" that you hate.


Since they are the real motor of the economy, not inert capital, they will demand to be paid in college more than they could make by getting a full-time job at ages 18 to their 20s What I suggest basically combines precollege with college, as you already begin to specialize by middle school. So by 20 you are already well educated with some skills. Which is better than money, imo, because it allows you more security and independence in the long run.

[Guerilla]

Interest is sparked by immediate material reward, not by wandering and unstable self-indulgent escapism.

We should eliminate college altogether; it is an obsolete finishing school for the spawn of the aristocracy. Businesses should choose the most talented and teach them only what is needed for the job. Leisure-class Liberal Arts aren't to broaden the mind; they are imposed only to make it more difficult and time-wasting for students who have little money to live on. Thorstein Veblen called it "conspicuous consumption": bragging by the preppies that their fat allowance meant that they could afford to waste time on useless subjects. That's where all the fake prestige of "non-commercial" subjects comes from. They only have snob value, which is worthless and inevitably becomes decadent and silly.


Interest is sparked by immediate material reward, not by wandering and unstable self-indulgent escapism.
Only in a capitalist world that conditions humans that way is this true.

We find the ladder half of your sentence is in most kids, but interest in immediate material reward is created by a capitalist culture that makes them materialistic and consumerist. So they lose the "childishness" of following their passion and talents, and do something that makes a lot of money instead. It is everything that is wrong with the world today.

[The Sage of Main Street]

I agree that simply liking something doesn't necessarily translate to aptitude, and aptitude needs to be a consideration as does some degree of practicality, in terms of there actually being potential to earn a living at the end of the day. That is totally unnatural. The top 10% in IQ, the only ones who have a right to be in college, should earn a living by being paid for studying. Otherwise, they are there because they are afraid to grow up. It is very unmanly; that is the real reason the majority of college students today are female. Though I wouldn't call them women.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Kids will naturally express their talents, we just need to learn to help grow those talents and passions by giving them direction and motivation.

In a way that is what I'm suggesting. My system will end up bringing like-minded children together. I think this will lead to more respect for each other and less of "the privileged coolies" that you hate.

What I suggest basically combines precollege with college, as you already begin to specialize by middle school. So by 20 you are already well educated with some skills. Which is better than money, imo, because it allows you more security and independence in the long run. You make it like some imaginary effective major in Casino Gambling, where only the student benefits, not business and society in general. Again, the talented shouldn't have to sacrifice the present for the future; those who will benefit later must make the temporary sacrifice. Investment is from surplus wealth; sacrificing years of not having a full-time job is taken out of necessary income. Corporation paying students to learn what is needed, starting at age 16 because the only students who belong in college are capable at that age, should substitute for corporate taxes.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Only in a capitalist world that conditions humans that way is this true.

We find the ladder half of your sentence is in most kids, but interest in immediate material reward is created by a capitalist culture that makes them materialistic and consumerist. So they lose the "childishness" of following their passion and talents, and do something that makes a lot of money instead. It is everything that is wrong with the world today. What is wrong with capitalist motivation for the workers only, instead of for a tiny and exclusive group of investor parasites?

[Guerilla]

You make it like some imaginary effective major in Casino Gambling, where only the student benefits, not business and society in general. Again, the talented shouldn't have to sacrifice the present for the future; those who will benefit later must make the temporary sacrifice. Investment is from surplus wealth; sacrificing years of not having a full-time job is taken out of necessary income. Corporation paying students to learn what is needed, starting at age 16 because the only students who belong in college are capable at that age, should substitute for corporate taxes.

We make an investment in the kids and their future work is the payoff to society and business. The better the investment the better the payoff.

Frankly, I don't give a shit about the economy or money, I decide the best course of action, then worry about the cost. That's how it should be. You have it backwards.

[Guerilla]

What is wrong with capitalist motivation for the workers only, instead of for a tiny and exclusive group of investor parasites?

To put it the most simply, the profit motive does not bring people to their full potential. I guess it's ok for manuel labor though.

It doesn't do quality work, but it get's the job done.

[The Sage of Main Street]

We make an investment in the kids and their future work is the payoff to society and business. The better the investment the better the payoff.

Frankly, I don't give a shit about the economy or money, I decide the best course of action, then worry about the cost. That's how it should be. Which kids are you talking about? Again you're being generic, which is an insult to the intelligent. If a college got a million dollars to improve its football team, would it spend it on classes requiring every student to practice football. No, it would spend it on those who made the team and in offering better benefits to the high-school stars it tries to recruit.

[The Sage of Main Street]

To put it the most simply, the profit motive does not bring people to their full potential. I guess it's ok for manual labor though.

It doesn't do quality work, but it gets the job done. Another false idea sold to you by those who freeload off Daddy's Money and don't need a profit motive. So this warm and fuzzy motive has snob value.

[donttread]

What's needed is a profit motive with a built in off switch: Cap income at 5 miill and wealth at 15

[Peter1469]

What's needed is a profit motive with a built in off switch: Cap income at 5 miill and wealth at 15


How do you keep someone from not making more? Send a government official to seize the cash?

[donttread]

How do you keep someone from not making more? Send a government official to seize the cash?

It would require and amendment but just place a 100% tax on income above 5,000,000 , hell make it a 101% tax for good measure

[Peter1469]

It would require and amendment but just place a 100% tax on income above 5,000,000 , hell make it a 101% tax for good measure

OK. That will never get passed. :smiley:

[The Sage of Main Street]

What's needed is a profit motive with a built in off switch: Cap income at 5 miill and wealth at 15 Especially since after a certain level, the rich don't have to earn their money. That situation is like the NBA would be if the championship team got the #1 draft pick.

[The Sage of Main Street]

How do you keep someone from not making more? Send a government official to seize the cash? The rich are seizing the cash that belongs to those who work for them.

[Peter1469]

The rich are seizing the cash that belongs to those who work for them.

Oh :shocked: