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Alyosha
08-10-2014, 10:38 AM
The New York Times covered it, so now we are heading for being co-opted. Anyway here is Reasons take on the article.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/07/new-york-times-magazine-has-the-libertar

"Let's say Ron Paul is Nirvana," said Kennedy, the television personality and former MTV host, by way of explaining the sort of politician who excites libertarians like herself. "Like, the coolest, most amazing thing to come along in years, and the songs are nebulous but somehow meaningful, and the lead singer kills himself to preserve the band's legacy.


"Then Rand Paul — he's Pearl Jam. Comes from the same place, the songs are really catchy, can really pack the stadiums, though it's not quite Nirvana.


"Ted Cruz? He's Stone Temple Pilots. Tries really hard to sound like Pearl Jam, never gonna sound like Nirvana. Really good voice, great staying power — but the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts."

Green Arrow
08-10-2014, 10:52 AM
That was a great article, and the end of it is exactly what I talk about with regard to perceived Rand Paul "flip flops."

donttread
08-10-2014, 11:01 AM
The New York Times covered it, so now we are heading for being co-opted. Anyway here is Reasons take on the article.

http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/07/new-york-times-magazine-has-the-libertar

"Let's say Ron Paul is Nirvana," said Kennedy, the television personality and former MTV host, by way of explaining the sort of politician who excites libertarians like herself. "Like, the coolest, most amazing thing to come along in years, and the songs are nebulous but somehow meaningful, and the lead singer kills himself to preserve the band's legacy.


"Then Rand Paul — he's Pearl Jam. Comes from the same place, the songs are really catchy, can really pack the stadiums, though it's not quite Nirvana.


"Ted Cruz? He's Stone Temple Pilots. Tries really hard to sound like Pearl Jam, never gonna sound like Nirvana. Really good voice, great staying power — but the whole is not greater than the sum of its parts."

There is no "God given right" to snort cocaine. However, there is also no federal authority to stop you

Chris
08-10-2014, 11:08 AM
With regard to the NYT piece,,,


...Without getting into policy specifics, there are a few problems with this narrative.

Agreeing with a libertarian on occasion doesn’t make you a libertarian
A libertarian – according to the dictionary, at least – is a person who “upholds the principles of individual liberty especially of thought and action.” And there is simply no evidence that Americans are any more inclined to support policy that furthers individual freedom or shrinks government.

Take two of the most frequently cited issues that herald the libertarian renaissance: legalized pot and gay marriage. Both of them, I would argue, are only inadvertently aligned with libertarian values. These are victories in a culture war. Both issues have rapidly gained acceptance in the United States, but support for them does not equate to any newfound longing to “uphold the principles of individual liberty.”

...Who is championing libertarian ideas?
Politics is always tough on libertarians as partisanship usually trumps principle. You don’t have to further than polling on NSA spying programs, where parties switch positions depending on who’s president, or the endless attempts by liberal pundits to justify Obama’s executive abuse – during the Bush-era a portend to fascism; today, a necessity brought on by “obstructionism” – to understand the pitfalls libertarians face.

So where do they turn?

...There is no ‘libertarian moment’ without libertarian economic reform
It’s odd that stories about the impending libertarian ascension always treat economics as an addendum to the itinerary. Especially when one considers some of the greatest thinkers of classical liberalism were (and are) economists. It’s yet to be seen if grassroots conservatives will maintain their libertarian economic outlook should they ever find themselves in power. But at least some in GOP have embraced an agenda driven by actual idealism.

...Millennials aren’t libertarians. They’re socialists who want to buy legal pot.

....

@ The ‘Libertarian Moment’ Has Definitely Not Arrived (http://thefederalist.com/2014/08/08/the-libertarian-moment-has-definitely-not-arrived/)

Peter1469
08-10-2014, 11:44 AM
The article does show the flaws of libertarians- open borders.

Great idea- in theory. But we have a welfare state sport.

Alyosha
08-10-2014, 12:04 PM
I think that saying you must put economic liberty first is wrong and creates a huge political divide.

Stoney
08-10-2014, 12:04 PM
The immigration issue seems to have lots of diversity in all political groups. And it seems to me that libertarians are less likely to align themselves with political platforms. I see Tea Party participants as typical libertarians. They are loosely connected in pursuit of basic ideas with many different ideas beyond those basics. I sometimes see them as a bunch of independent thinkers who just happen to share a few basic goals.

Chris
08-10-2014, 12:23 PM
The NYT piece was a response to an earlier piece by Reason's Nick Gillespie, Can We Start Talking About the Libertarian *Era* Already? (http://reason.com/archives/2013/08/20/can-we-start-talking-about-the-libertari/).

A reading of which says the NYT piece didn't really get it's point, which was largely a criticism of mainstream media hyping libertarianism.

Here's more or less what it what about:


These are very different sensibilities and principles than those of the status-quo conservative wing of the party, which is dedicated to increasing spending on defense and other favored constituencies (such as Medicare beneficiaries and farmers in the form of subsidies) and to running off at the mouth about immigrants (at least if they come from south of the border), the gays, and abortion. That establishment GOP pols talk more about the last three topics rather than things such as entitlements, spending, and overseas war is a sign they are not serious when it comes to governing. Cillizza and others are probably right that a dedication to crusty old conservative values will not ever again win national elections. Especially if those values seem to long for the good old days of closeted gays, immigrants from the slums of Southern and Central Europe, a blank check for seniors (and nothing but aspersions for senors), and a willingness to bear any burden in the fight against international communism (news flash: we won that battle!). But that's not what is getting people hopped up about libertarians these days. What does it tell you that observers from George Will to Julian Assange are swooning for the libertarian Republicans? As Assange put it recently, he is "a big admirer of Ron Paul and Rand Paul for their very principled positions in the US Congress on a number of issues...[and] the libertarian aspect of the Republican Party is presently the only useful political voice in the US Congress."

It concludes on a somewhat tongue-in-cheek note:


If the long-term, decentralist trends described in books as different as Moises Naim's The End of Power, Grant McCracken's Plenitude, and The Declaration of Independents are at all true, we can forget about the Libertarian Moment and start jawing about the Libertarian Era. At least it will give the legacy media something to fill their pages while they're still around.

Captain Obvious
08-10-2014, 12:25 PM
Pearl Jam sucks.

Alyosha
08-10-2014, 12:59 PM
Ten was awesome.

Captain Obvious
08-10-2014, 01:14 PM
I got into alternative and grunge decades ago because I was completely fucking sick of hearing Stairway to Heaven and Freebird 20 times a fucking day.

Now I'm completely sick of hearing Daughter and Heart Shaped Box 20 times a fucking day.

Alt/grunge stations think Pearl Jam, Nirvana and AIC were the only bands making music during the 90's.

Chris
08-11-2014, 08:27 AM
Another reaction that sums this up nicely:


Which doesn't mean anything to folks deeply invested in maintaining the conventional left-right, liberal-conservative status quo. The Times' Paul Krugman, who doesn't even pretend to read people with whom he disagrees, writes off the idea that interest in "free minds and free markets" is growing as just more "libertarian fantasies." Because he can only conceive of things in the narrowest, dumbest ways, he writes that "libertarianism is a crusade against problems we don’t have," as if the drug war, a continually failing foreign policy, legal discrimination against gays, immigration policy that punishes people yearning to be free, dead-broke entitlement programs, and so much more aren't really problems. Now that he has a no-show job at CUNY, does he even get out of his house anymore? There's nothing short of a revolution in how people conceive of work as a form of self-expression going on all around him. Over at places such as National Review, even conservatives who are themselves essentially libertarian pooh-pooh the idea that anything much can or will be done to reduce the size, scope, and spending of government. "Rand Paul can't win" is the essence of this formulation by Kevin Williamson and others there, again reducing complex shifts in cultural, social, economic, and political dynamics to electoral outcomes that threaten a dying post-war coalition of special interests. Gallup finds something like just 25 percent of Americans copping to being Republicans. That number will only decline if the GOP insists on doing the same thing it's been doing since the Gingrich Revolution. Which is to say: Spend, regulate, carp, and grow the size of the state even as it claims to be anti-government and pro-freedom.

@ Breaking: Liberals, Conservatives Say The "Libertarian Moment" Is So Far From Happening That It's Not Even Funny, Man. (http://reason.com/blog/2014/08/10/breaking-liberals-conservatives-say-the)

Peter1469
08-11-2014, 09:53 AM
Paul Krugman (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/11/opinion/paul-krugman-the-libertarian-fantasy.html)wrote a timely article today. He is against the libertarian concept of course. But he does understand the cause of the algae bloom in Lake Erie.....


Smart libertarians have always realized that there are problems free markets alone can’t solve — but their alternatives to government tend to be implausible. For example, Milton Friedman famously called for the abolition (http://www.hoover.org/research/take-it-limits-milton-friedman-libertarianism) of the Food and Drug Administration. But in that case, how would consumers know whether their food and drugs were safe? His answer was to rely on tort law. Corporations, he claimed, would have the incentive not to poison people because of the threat of lawsuits.



More commonly, self-proclaimed libertarians deal with the problem of market failure both by pretending that it doesn’t happen and by imagining government as much worse than it really is. We’re living in an Ayn Rand novel (http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/ayn-rand-joins-the-ticket), they insist. (No, we aren’t.) We have more than a hundred different welfare programs, they tell us, which are wasting vast sums on bureaucracy rather than helping the poor. (No, we don’t (http://www.nextnewdeal.net/rortybomb/pragmatic-libertarian-case-basic-income-doesnt-add), and no, they aren’t.)


Libertarians also tend to engage in projection. They don’t want to believe that there are problems whose solution requires government action, so they tend to assume that others similarly engage in motivated reasoning to serve their political agenda — that anyone who worries about, say, environmental issues is engaged in scare tactics to further a big-government agenda (http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Politics/monitor_breakfast/2014/0808/Paul-Ryan-US-competitiveness-hindered-by-Obama-environmental-regulations). Paul Ryan, the chairman of the House Budget Committee, doesn’t just think we’re living out the plot of “Atlas Shrugged”; he asserts that all the fuss over climate change is just “an excuse to grow government.”

Chris
08-11-2014, 09:57 AM
Paul Krugman (http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/11/opinion/paul-krugman-the-libertarian-fantasy.html)wrote a timely article today. He is against the libertarian concept of course. But he does understand the cause of the algae bloom in Lake Erie.....

Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand and Paul Ryan are not libertarians. Krugman is not dealing with reality.

Peter1469
08-11-2014, 10:04 AM
Milton Friedman, Ayn Rand and Paul Ryan are not libertarians. Krugman is not dealing with reality.

He rarely does.

1751_Texan
08-11-2014, 12:18 PM
If Ron Paul is Nirvana

Rand is Beck


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6DnD9RBdkfE


And Ted is Insane Clown Posse


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3I2EVNE7Ms#t=28

Captain Obvious
08-11-2014, 12:19 PM
If Ron Paul is Nirvana

Rand is Beck

Yeah, wrong!

1751_Texan
08-11-2014, 12:25 PM
Yeah, wrong!

How can an opinion be wrong?

Everything you believe of Rand is right. Everything.

Captain Obvious
08-11-2014, 12:27 PM
How can an opinion be wrong?

Everything you believe of Rand is right. Everything.

You managed to make it so.

I think Rand is a fraud and full of shit, had you been paying attention you would know this. Been saying it for years, even before it was popular to be a Rand basher - isn't that right Alyosha ?

Beck is fucking awesome. Nirvana sucks. You had it more backwards than anything.

Chris
08-11-2014, 12:31 PM
How can an opinion be wrong?

Everything you believe of Rand is right. Everything.


The fact that it is your opinion doesn't determine if it's right or wrong.

Paperback Writer
08-11-2014, 12:33 PM
For why is Rand Paul worse than other US pols?

I've got to hear this one.

Matty
08-11-2014, 12:36 PM
For why is Rand Paul worse than other US pols?

I've got to hear this one.


He runs like a sissy. Unable to speak and confront the big issues. Stick a fork in him. He's done.

Chris
08-11-2014, 12:36 PM
For why is Rand Paul worse than other US pols?

I've got to hear this one.

To me the question is he different than most politicians? Does he stand for principles over party Or does he sell out to win?

1751_Texan
08-11-2014, 12:43 PM
He runs like a sissy. Unable to speak and confront the big issues. Stick a fork in him. He's done.

He no hab-blah spanglish.

Chris
08-11-2014, 12:50 PM
He runs like a sissy. Unable to speak and confront the big issues. Stick a fork in him. He's done.


He no hab-blah spanglish.

It warms the heart to see the right and the left joined together. :rollseyes:

Captain Obvious
08-11-2014, 12:50 PM
For why is Rand Paul worse than other US pols?

I've got to hear this one.

He was killed by fast food.

:biglaugh:

donttread
08-11-2014, 12:52 PM
He runs like a sissy. Unable to speak and confront the big issues. Stick a fork in him. He's done.

WTF? What issue could be bigger than actually living by our own Constitution?

Paperback Writer
08-11-2014, 12:58 PM
He runs like a sissy. Unable to speak and confront the big issues. Stick a fork in him. He's done.

I asked how he is unlike other politicians, not how he is like other politicians.

Captain Obvious
08-11-2014, 12:59 PM
I asked how he is unlike other politicians, not how he is like other politicians.

He appeals to your age bracket, there's one thing.

Paperback Writer
08-11-2014, 12:59 PM
What I see in this thread is a bunch of sad nancys who don't know why they don't like someone, they just don't like him. Fair enough, just say it.

Captain Obvious
08-11-2014, 12:59 PM
What I see in this thread is a bunch of sad nancys who don't know why they don't like someone, they just don't like him. Fair enough, just say it.

You're not looking hard enough then.

Chris
08-11-2014, 01:05 PM
What I see in this thread is a bunch of sad nancys who don't know why they don't like someone, they just don't like him. Fair enough, just say it.


That accounts for approx 98% of American politics.

Paperback Writer
08-11-2014, 01:15 PM
You're not looking hard enough then.

I should look hard? You've yet to tell me specifics, just general ramblings. That's not my communication error. :)

Captain Obvious
08-11-2014, 01:16 PM
I should look hard? You've yet to tell me specifics, just general ramblings. That's not my communication error. :)

You didn't ask, nor did you say 'please'.

Paperback Writer
08-11-2014, 01:31 PM
You didn't ask, nor did you say 'please'.

Please, good sir, will you do me the honour of explaining in specifics what you feel is so horrendous in his character and how it is vastly different than other politicians in the US that he should be singled out a **** and twatter?

Matty
08-11-2014, 01:32 PM
I asked how he is unlike other politicians, not how he is like other politicians.
No, you did not. You asked "how is he worse than other politicians?" Other politicians stand up and state their positions (no matter how wrong headed) they don't run away like a scalded cat. That's what makes him worse.

Paperback Writer
08-11-2014, 01:33 PM
No, you did not. You asked "how is he worse than other politicians?" Other politicians stand up and state their positions (no matter how wrong headed) they don't run away like a scalded cat. That's what makes him worse.

He's on the telly all the time stating his positions. Just cos he don't want his lunch of spare time taken up by political squatters don't make him a runner.

Let's all be realistic here. You interrupt my meal and I'll tell you to fuck off. Doubt that would go over as well as troddling off.

Matty
08-11-2014, 01:37 PM
He's on the telly all the time stating his positions. Just cos he don't want his lunch of spare time taken up by political squatters don't make him a runner.

Let's all be realistic here. You interrupt my meal and I'll tell you to fuck off. Doubt that would go over as well as troddling off.


Well, since you already have your answer planted squarely in your head why bother to ask us? You vote for him, cause we Americans know he's done. What can he run for in your country?

Captain Obvious
08-11-2014, 01:39 PM
Please, good sir, will you do me the honour of explaining in specifics what you feel is so horrendous in his character and how it is vastly different than other politicians in the US that he should be singled out a **** and twatter?

All covered in here, ad naseum.

Teach a man to fish...

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/29777-Watch-them-Run-See-Rand-run-Run-Rand-run!-F-ing-Cowards?highlight=rand+paul+runs

Paperback Writer
08-11-2014, 01:41 PM
Well, since you already have your answer planted squarely in your head why bother to ask us? You vote for him, cause we Americans know he's done. What can he run for in your country?

Cos I didn't actually believe someone was stupid enough to not vote for someone on the basis of their not wishing to be interrupted during a meal.

Since that's the case, I'll accept that as your answer.

Paperback Writer
08-11-2014, 01:42 PM
All covered in here, ad naseum.

Teach a man to fish...

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/29777-Watch-them-Run-See-Rand-run-Run-Rand-run!-F-ing-Cowards?highlight=rand+paul+runs


You've got to be kidding. It's more of the same. Just admit you don't know why you don't like him, you just don't like him. That's how I feel about Fall Out Boy. Never liked them, don't know why.

Matty
08-11-2014, 02:30 PM
Cos I didn't actually believe someone was stupid enough to not vote for someone on the basis of their not wishing to be interrupted during a meal.

Since that's the case, I'll accept that as your answer.


No, accept that as your answer. Your made up answer. Unless of course you can link to where Paul actually used that excuse!

Captain Obvious
08-11-2014, 02:33 PM
You've got to be kidding. It's more of the same. Just admit you don't know why you don't like him, you just don't like him. That's how I feel about Fall Out Boy. Never liked them, don't know why.

Ok sure - I admit I don't like him.

I do know why, I've stated it many times now.

How's that?

Bob
08-11-2014, 02:48 PM
The article does show the flaws of libertarians- open borders.

Great idea- in theory. But we have a welfare state sport.

Are they actually for no borders or was that just the view of that one person?

Libertarians ought to fight to keep Democrats out of office. They are the danger to human freedom.

The Xl
08-11-2014, 03:01 PM
Rand catches more heat because he brands himself as anti establishment and is increasingly pandering himself to the establishment.

Mister D
08-11-2014, 03:07 PM
Rand catches more heat because he brands himself as anti establishment and is increasingly pandering himself to the establishment.

This says nothing about Rand's character. The situation is such that he will aways appear inconsistent and compromised. He is trying to chnage the system from the inside. That will require a long term strategy and inevitable compromise with said system. I'm not even a fan of this guy or of libertarianism generally. In fact, I prefer a strong state. So why am I one of the few giving him a fair assessment?

Chris
08-11-2014, 03:13 PM
This says nothing about Rand's character. The situation is such that he will aways appear inconsistent and compromised. He is trying to chnage the system from the inside. That will require a long term strategy and inevitable compromise with said system. I'm not even a fan of this guy or of libertarianism generally. In fact, I prefer a strong state. So why am I one of the few giving him a fair assessment?

That I think is the question. Is he trying to change the state from within, or is he like other politicians promising to change the state but trying to change the people instead?

For me the jury is still out.

I'm certainly not satisfied with some seeing a video, offering interpretations argued from unknowns, and then criticising their interpretation.

Green Arrow
08-11-2014, 03:17 PM
That I think is the question. Is he trying to change the state from within, or is he like other politicians promising to change the state but trying to change the people instead?

For me the jury is still out.

I'm certainly not satisfied with some seeing a video, offering interpretations argued from unknowns, and then criticising their interpretation.

His voting record indicates his true feelings, and so far, it's solid.

Bob
08-11-2014, 03:18 PM
For why is Rand Paul worse than other US pols?

I've got to hear this one.

Would you be so kind Paperback Writer to give us the story of your politicians in England? Surely as much as you know of ours, you are the expert on your own.

Chris
08-11-2014, 03:26 PM
His voting record indicates his true feelings, and so far, it's solid.

I'm listening to him. So far I'm undecided.

I just updated the run away thread: http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/29777-Watch-them-Run-See-Rand-run-Run-Rand-run!-F-ing-Cowards?p=720867&viewfull=1#post720867. Of course the gullible will continue to believe what they believe.

Bob
08-11-2014, 03:29 PM
His voting record indicates his true feelings, and so far, it's solid.

I for one never questioned his voting record. All i want is experience the next time we have a president. i am so sick of this incompetent president I vow we do not elect another one.

Green Arrow
08-11-2014, 03:34 PM
I for one never questioned his voting record. All i want is experience the next time we have a president. i am so sick of this incompetent president I vow we do not elect another one.

Too bad, we will.

Mister D
08-11-2014, 03:35 PM
That I think is the question. Is he trying to change the state from within, or is he like other politicians promising to change the state but trying to change the people instead?

For me the jury is still out.

I'm certainly not satisfied with some seeing a video, offering interpretations argued from unknowns, and then criticising their interpretation.

***The following is not directed at you personally***

The problen is that whether he is genuine or not he will have to make concessions. He's going to have to give in at times. He doesn't have a choice. Moreover, he's one man. If he really does plan to make fundamental changes what can you expect from him at this point? Is it a 'Hope and Change' deal? If so, get real guys. It doesn't work that way. It will be a hard slog for him that will only get easier when he has political allies.

Chris
08-11-2014, 03:41 PM
***The following is not directed at you personally***

The problen is that whether he is genuine or not he will have to make concessions. He's going to have to give in at times. He doesn't have a choice. Moreover, he's one man. If he really does plan to make fundamental changes what can you expect from him at this point? Is it a 'Hope and Change' deal? If so, get real guys. It doesn't work that way. It will be a hard slog for him that will only get easier when he has political allies.


Why you @*&$! ;-)

Yes, you're absolutely right. Whether he's left, right, Rep, Dem, libertarian, whatever, in order to get elected he's going to have to compromise and concede points. The question is can he do that and still remain true enough to principles I believe he holds (acknowledging I may be mistaken) to win my vote?

Mister D
08-11-2014, 03:49 PM
Why you @*&$! ;-)

Yes, you're absolutely right. Whether he's left, right, Rep, Dem, libertarian, whatever, in order to get elected he's going to have to compromise and concede points. The question is can he do that and still remain true enough to principles I believe he holds (acknowledging I may be mistaken) to win my vote?

Right. I think it's just too early to make any serious judgments about this guy. Criticism? Sure. Fire away.