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Alyosha
08-16-2014, 07:09 AM
Some thoughts from Rand's article, including quotes from other libertarians

http://time.com/3111474/rand-paul-ferguson-police/


Glenn Reynolds, in Popular Mechanics (http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military/4203345?click=main_sr), recognized the increasing militarization of the police five years ago. In 2009 he wrote:


Soldiers and police are supposed to be different. … Police look inward. They’re supposed to protect their fellow citizens from criminals, and to maintain order with a minimum of force.
It’s the difference between Audie Murphy and Andy Griffith. But nowadays, police are looking, and acting, more like soldiers than cops, with bad consequences. And those who suffer the consequences are usually innocent civilians.
The Cato Institute’s (http://www.cato.org/blog/police-militarization-ferguson-nationwide) Walter Olson observed this week how the rising militarization of law enforcement is currently playing out in Ferguson:

Why armored vehicles in a Midwestern inner suburb? Why would cops wear camouflage gear against a terrain patterned by convenience stores and beauty parlors? Why are the authorities in Ferguson, Mo. so given to quasi-martial crowd control methods (such as bans on walking on the street) and, per the reporting of Riverfront Times, the firing of tear gas at people in their own yards? (“‘This my property!’ he shouted, prompting police to fire a tear gas canister directly at his face.”) Why would someone identifying himself as an 82nd Airborne Army veteran, observing the Ferguson police scene, comment that “We rolled lighter than that in an actual warzone”?
Olson added, “the dominant visual aspect of the story, however, has been the sight of overpowering police forces confronting unarmed protesters who are seen waving signs or just their hands.”

How did this happen?


Most police officers are good cops and good people. It is an unquestionably difficult job, especially in the current circumstances.
There is a systemic problem with today’s law enforcement.


Not surprisingly, big government has been at the heart of the problem. Washington has incentivized the militarization of local police precincts by using federal dollars to help municipal governments build what are essentially small armies—where police departments compete to acquire military gear that goes far beyond what most of Americans think of as law enforcement.
This is usually done in the name of fighting the war on drugs or terrorism. The Heritage Foundation’s (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/08/overmilitarization-why-law-enforcement-needs-to-scale-down-its-use-of-military-hardware-and-tactics) Evan Bernick wrote in 2013 that, “the Department of Homeland Security has handed out anti-terrorism grants to cities and towns across the country, enabling them to buy armored vehicles, guns, armor, aircraft, and other equipment.”


Bernick continued, “federal agencies of all stripes, as well as local police departments in towns with populations less than 14,000, come equipped with SWAT teams and heavy artillery.”


Bernick noted the cartoonish imbalance between the equipment some police departments possess and the constituents they serve, “today, Bossier Parish, Louisiana, has a .50 caliber gun mounted on an armored vehicle. The Pentagon gives away millions of pieces of military equipment to police departments across the country—tanks included.”


When you couple this militarization of law enforcement with an erosion of civil liberties and due process that allows the police to become judge and jury—national security letters, no-knock searches, broad general warrants, pre-conviction forfeiture—we begin to have a very serious problem on our hands.


Given these developments, it is almost impossible for many Americans not to feel like their government is targeting them. Given the racial disparities in our criminal justice system, it is impossible for African-Americans not to feel like their government is particularly targeting them.


This is part of the anguish we are seeing in the tragic events outside of St. Louis, Missouri. It is what the citizens of Ferguson feel when there is an unfortunate and heartbreaking shooting like the incident with Michael Brown.


Anyone who thinks that race does not still, even if inadvertently, skew the application of criminal justice in this country is just not paying close enough attention. Our prisons are full of black and brown men and women who are serving inappropriately long and harsh sentences for non-violent mistakes in their youth.


The militarization of our law enforcement is due to an unprecedented expansion of government power in this realm. It is one thing for federal officials to work in conjunction with local authorities to reduce or solve crime. It is quite another for them to subsidize it.


Americans must never sacrifice their liberty for an illusive and dangerous, or false, security. This has been a cause I have championed for years, and one that is at a near-crisis point in our country.


Let us continue to pray for Michael Brown’s family, the people of Ferguson, police, and citizens alike.
Paul is the junior U.S. Sen

Peter1469
08-16-2014, 07:22 AM
An interesting and relevant topic that doesn't require assuming facts not in evidence!

This quote sums it up for me:


Soldiers and police are supposed to be different. … Police look inward. They’re supposed to protect their fellow citizens from criminals, and to maintain order with a minimum of force.
It’s the difference between Audie Murphy and Andy Griffith. But nowadays, police are looking, and acting, more like soldiers than cops, with bad consequences. And those who suffer the consequences are usually innocent civilians.

Green Arrow
08-16-2014, 07:29 AM
They are all right, as usual. The people who support police militarization whine about the constitution and freedom in the next breath. They don't understand how it works.

Alyosha
08-16-2014, 07:31 AM
They are all right, as usual. The people who support police militarization whine about the constitution and freedom in the next breath. They don't understand how it works.

Freedom means nothing to them. It's just patriotism that they feel and because we use word association in the US where being patriotic means saying things about "freedom" they feel they support it when they actually don't.

Matty
08-16-2014, 07:47 AM
Well, we can have the police crawl on their bellies, then maybe you won't be so frightened.

donttread
08-16-2014, 07:47 AM
Some thoughts from Rand's article, including quotes from other libertarians

http://time.com/3111474/rand-paul-ferguson-police/

Rand as usual is right on the money. In this case big government money and there personal ARMY. The wearing camo in the city comment was interesting. Clearly that has no real value, but does send a psychological message

Alyosha
08-16-2014, 07:49 AM
Well, we can have the police crawl on their bellies, then maybe you won't be so frightened.

Or they can act like police did 20 years ago and I won't be so frightened then, either.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth. It gives me the opportunity to clarify 50 times over.

Matty
08-16-2014, 07:52 AM
Nah! At this point I think belly crawling is what is needed.

Alyosha
08-16-2014, 08:03 AM
Nah! At this point I think belly crawling is what is needed.

Good for you then. No one else does.

Peter1469
08-16-2014, 08:17 AM
A peace officer would just as soon crawl on his belly, as he would gun down an unarmed teen. You would man up, cuff and stuff the kid and bring him off to jail for questioning.

Matty
08-16-2014, 08:19 AM
A peace officer would just as soon crawl on his belly, as he would gun down an unarmed teen. You would man up, cuff and stuff the kid and bring him off to jail for questioning.
Not if he'sSmashed your face in and tried to take your gun.

Peter1469
08-16-2014, 08:21 AM
Not if he'sSmashed your face in and tried to take your gun.

That is the point. A qualified peace officer wouldn't get smashed in the face. He would have controlled the situation.

You hire unqualified people and their gun is their lifeline.

Matty
08-16-2014, 08:24 AM
That is the point. A qualified peace officer wouldn't get smashed in the face. He would have controlled the situation.

You hire unqualified people and their gun is their lifeline.


I think it would be hard for anyone to control the movements of a six foot four inch 290 pound man. Let's stop calling him a kid. He was 18. That's an adult male.

Peter1469
08-16-2014, 08:29 AM
I think it would be hard for anyone to control the movements of a six foot four inch 290 pound man. Let's stop calling him a kid. He was 18. That's an adult male.

Now we are back at qualifications. 6'4", 290lbs likely puts him at an extreme disadvantage if you know what you are doing.

Matty
08-16-2014, 08:33 AM
Now we are back at qualifications. 6'4", 290lbs likely puts him at an extreme disadvantage if you know what you are doing.
You mean a soldier could do it? But you don't want cops to be militarized.

Chris
08-16-2014, 08:41 AM
Most cops I think are good people but the donning of camouflage and riot gear, driving in military vehicles, seems to change attitudes, theirs and ours.

Alyosha
08-16-2014, 08:43 AM
I think it would be hard for anyone to control the movements of a six foot four inch 290 pound man. Let's stop calling him a kid. He was 18. That's an adult male.

I agree. Not a kid. It's still not impossible to control the movements of an overweight guy with no gun, especially when you have tasers, pepper spray, body armor, and training.

I have seen Codename Section in a fight with three guys all in their prime outside Tim's and he managed to come out just fine because he had training...just like police.

donttread
08-16-2014, 08:43 AM
That is the point. A qualified peace officer wouldn't get smashed in the face. He would have controlled the situation.

You hire unqualified people and their gun is their lifeline.

Townies are under trained, poorly screened and over armed

Alyosha
08-16-2014, 08:43 AM
Most cops I think are good people but the donning of camouflage and riot gear, driving in military vehicles, sermsto change attitudes, theirs and ours.

yep, give someone a hammer and everything becomes a nail.

Matty
08-16-2014, 08:45 AM
yep, give someone a hammer and everything becomes a nail.


I heard Tucker Carlson say that this morning too!

Alyosha
08-16-2014, 08:46 AM
You mean a soldier could do it? But you don't want cops to be militarized.

Hand to hand training is not militarization. Cops have always had it. Heck--watch TVLand some time. Those Charlie's Angels gals could do it.

Matty
08-16-2014, 08:46 AM
I agree. Not a kid. It's still not impossible to control the movements of an overweight guy with no gun, especially when you have tasers, pepper spray, body armor, and training.

I have seen Codename Section in a fight with three guys all in their prime outside Tim's and he managed to come out just fine because he had training...just like police.


@ six four, 290 is not that much overweight.

Alyosha
08-16-2014, 08:48 AM
@ six four, 290 is not that much overweight.

Yes it is. My husband was 6 ft 2 and never broke 200. Codename Section is also 6 ft 2 and is at 200. Ethereal is 6 ft tall and can't break 200.

Three hundred pounds is fat. Look at the video. He's a tubby.

Matty
08-16-2014, 08:48 AM
If cops use tasers you whine, if cops use pepper spray you whine. Yep, belly crawling is pretty much all that's left, oh they could look at you wrong and frighten you I suppose.

Alyosha
08-16-2014, 08:51 AM
If cops use tasers you whine, if cops use pepper spray you whine. Yep, belly crawling is pretty much all that's left, oh they could look at you wrong and frighten you I suppose.

Nope. You're misrepresenting the argument the way progressives misrepresent yours on welfare.

I am against tasers if the person has not committed a violent offense. I am for tasers if they have. I don't think cops should escalate the level of violence or the weaponry.

If someone is coming at you to harm you and they are a big old dude, taser them. If it's an old lady, you're a huge dick for tasering her.

This is just common sense shit.

Matty
08-16-2014, 08:53 AM
Most of us old ladies would hug em. Not go After them.

Alyosha
08-16-2014, 08:57 AM
Most of us old ladies would hug em. Not go After them.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrGsefBbI-E

Peter1469
08-16-2014, 09:17 AM
You mean a soldier could do it? But you don't want cops to be militarized.
Where is the world did the word soldier pop into this discussion?

Can you point it out?

Alyosha
08-16-2014, 09:18 AM
Where is the world did the word soldier pop into this discussion?

Can you point it out?

Yeh cuz like I brought up Codename and he's a marine.

Hey, I need some legal help with a federal case. Check your PMs soon.

Peter1469
08-16-2014, 09:19 AM
@ six four, 290 is not that much overweight.

Yes it is. The kid was a slob.

Peter1469
08-16-2014, 09:20 AM
Yeh cuz like I brought up Codename and he's a marine.

Hey, I need some legal help with a federal case. Check your PMs soon.

ok

Matty
08-16-2014, 09:24 AM
Yes it is. The kid was a slob.
Not according to the weight charts



http://www.healthchecksystems.com/heightweightchart.htm

Peter1469
08-16-2014, 09:28 AM
Not according to the weight charts



http://www.healthchecksystems.com/heightweightchart.htm

Whut? Your chart says he shouldn't be over 207 LBS. Note, these charts don't factor in muscle mass.

It puts me at not being over 163lbs. I would have to lose 20 lbs of muscle mass to get down that light.

countryboy
08-16-2014, 09:31 AM
Some thoughts from Rand's article, including quotes from other libertarians

http://time.com/3111474/rand-paul-ferguson-police/

I thought Rand was a republican. :stirthepot:

:sofa:

Matty
08-16-2014, 09:31 AM
ok
I wasn't even thinking of code when I wrote that. I was thinking of your training mr. Peter rabbit. Where is code anyway?

Matty
08-16-2014, 09:32 AM
I thought Rand was a republican. :stirthepot:

:sofa:
He is, a flip flopping run away scared Republican.

Peter1469
08-16-2014, 09:35 AM
I wasn't even thinking of code when I wrote that. I was thinking of your training mr. Peter rabbit. Where is code anyway?

My hand to hand combat training was from the private sector. The Army isn't very good at it, even now that they have a real program. I will PM you about the rest.

lynn
08-16-2014, 10:10 AM
If cops use tasers you whine, if cops use pepper spray you whine. Yep, belly crawling is pretty much all that's left, oh they could look at you wrong and frighten you I suppose.


It is not necessary to use tasers on someone that is already in handcuffs as police officers in Arizona have done to people.

The Xl
08-16-2014, 10:49 AM
@ six four, 290 is not that much overweight.

wut.

Unless you're Brock Lesnar or some shit, you're probably going to be fat at that weight.

donttread
08-16-2014, 11:04 AM
wut.

Unless you're Brock Lesnar or some shit, you're probably going to be fat at that weight.

Damn near impossible to weight 290 and not be over weight.

The Xl
08-16-2014, 11:17 AM
Damn near impossible to weight 290 and not be over weight.

For sure

Bob
08-16-2014, 11:35 AM
They are all right, as usual. The people who support police militarization whine about the constitution and freedom in the next breath. They don't understand how it works.

You want to disarm the cops??? Why? Green Arrow and Peter1469

I see no sign in my city that our cops are an army.

Matty
08-16-2014, 11:37 AM
You want to disarm the cops??? Why? @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) and @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10)

I see no sign in my city that our cops are an army.
Mine either.

Bob
08-16-2014, 11:37 AM
Freedom means nothing to them. It's just patriotism that they feel and because we use word association in the US where being patriotic means saying things about "freedom" they feel they support it when they actually don't.

Look, I don't plan to indict the entire police force of all cities in America over what some do.

Talk about beach blanket justice.

Peter1469
08-16-2014, 11:40 AM
You want to disarm the cops??? Why? @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) and @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10)

I see no sign in my city that our cops are an army.

Full stop.

Correct the statement. OK, I did that above.

Now get it correct: we don't want to militarize the police force.

Alyosha
08-16-2014, 11:42 AM
Look, I don't plan to indict the entire police force of all cities in America over what some do.

Talk about beach blanket justice.

No. You can just indict blacks. That's how we roll on this forum.

del
08-16-2014, 12:05 PM
@ six four, 290 is not that much overweight.

at least 50 lbs

Codename Section
08-16-2014, 12:07 PM
I guess if you take roids 290 is a good weight for someone of 6' 4". You'd have no neck and could barely move, but hell if that's your game...

del
08-16-2014, 12:07 PM
You want to disarm the cops??? Why? @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) and @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10)

I see no sign in my city that our cops are an army.

with all due respect, objective observation isn't your forte.

del
08-16-2014, 12:08 PM
I guess if you take roids 290 is a good weight for someone of 6' 4". You'd have no neck and could barely move, but hell if that's your game...

my dad was 6'4" and a big 6'4" at that and he never weighed more than 235

Matty
08-16-2014, 12:09 PM
I made a mistake people. Sue me.

del
08-16-2014, 12:09 PM
Not according to the weight charts



http://www.healthchecksystems.com/heightweightchart.htm

according to the weight chart, he's 80 lbs overweight

Codename Section
08-16-2014, 12:10 PM
I made a mistake people. Sue me.

Why don't you just send me some gulf shrimp instead and we call it a day?

countryboy
08-16-2014, 12:11 PM
Why don't you just send me some gulf shrimp instead and we call it a day?
Howdy there new guy, welcome to the forum. :yo2:

del
08-16-2014, 12:12 PM
Full stop.

Correct the statement. OK, I did that above.

Now get it correct: we don't want to militarize the police force.

too late

almost all the new hires are fresh out of the service and treat the citizenry as if they are still an ocupying force rather than what they're supposed to be-civil servants.

Matty
08-16-2014, 12:12 PM
Why don't you just send me some gulf shrimp instead and we call it a day?

These were the last ones we ate, damn they were good too. I don't know how I'd get them to you fresh.

8577

Codename Section
08-16-2014, 12:14 PM
These were the last ones we ate, damn they were good too. I don't know how I'd get them to you fresh.

8577


Be still my heart!

countryboy
08-16-2014, 12:16 PM
These were the last ones we ate, damn they were good too. I don't know how I'd get them to you fresh.

8577
Dry ice and a styrofoam shipping container?

Codename Section
08-16-2014, 12:16 PM
my dad was 6'4" and a big 6'4" at that and he never weighed more than 235

I'm 6 2 and about 205 right now.

countryboy
08-16-2014, 12:18 PM
I'm 6 2 and about 205 right now.
That's pretty lean, right? I'm 5 11 and about 195, and people call me "skinny".

Matty
08-16-2014, 12:19 PM
Dry ice and a styrofoam shipping container?


I'll to ask the seafood company. See how pink those guys are? It literally means they slept in the Gulf of Mexico the night before. The paler they are the less fresh they are.

Codename Section
08-16-2014, 12:20 PM
That's pretty lean, right? I'm 5 11 and about 195, and people call me "skinny".

I'm lean right now because I am working on speed, I fluctuate by about 10 lbs, but I'm not skinny.

Codename Section
08-16-2014, 12:20 PM
I'll to ask the seafood company. See how pink those guys are? It literally means they slept in the Gulf of Mexico the night before. The paler they are the less fresh they are.
Matalese

I was kidding. I'm not trying to extort shrimp from you...unless you want me to extort shrimp from you. :)

countryboy
08-16-2014, 12:25 PM
I'm lean right now because I am working on speed, I fluctuate by about 10 lbs, but I'm not skinny.
I'm not skinny either. It's usually the horizontally challenged types that refer to me as "skinny". And we know you're a lean, mean, fighting machine Code. http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/patriot.gif It really is good to see ya bro, hope you hang around a bit. I just sharpened my Stihl chainsaw with a 28" bar, and imma go cut up some shit. Catch ya on the flipside.

Codename Section
08-16-2014, 12:26 PM
I'm not skinny either. It's usually the horizontally challenged types that refer to me as "skinny". And we know you're a lean, mean, fighting machine Code. http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/images/smilies/patriot.gif It really is good to see ya bro, hope you hang around a bit. I just sharpened my Stihl chainsaw with a 28" bar, and imma go cut up some shit. Catch ya on the flipside.

We'll see. I logged on to send a PM and this is what I see. Catch ya later, dude.

Matty
08-16-2014, 12:27 PM
@Matalese (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=796)

I was kidding. I'm not trying to extort shrimp from you...unless you want me to extort shrimp from you. :)

Lol. I know. That's the way we southerns izz, we love to share good food and boiled shrimp izz good. My sister is coming in from California tonight. Her first orders were "I want shrimp, lots of shrimp, boiled and fried" my husband has work to do, he is the shrimp cooker. I will ask and if they can get them to you fresh I'd be glad to ship them.

Codename Section
08-16-2014, 12:29 PM
Lol. I know. That's the way we southerns izz, we love to share good food and boiled shrimp izz good. My sister is coming in from California tonight. Her first orders were "I want shrimp, lots of shrimp, boiled and fried" my husband has work to do, he is the shrimp cooker. I will ask and if they can get them to you fresh I'd be glad to ship them.

You are a sweetheart. I do miss Gulf Coast living.

Green Arrow
08-16-2014, 12:39 PM
You want to disarm the cops??? Why? @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) and @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10)

I see no sign in my city that our cops are an army.

Hm? Oh, I want to disarm cops because I hate law and order and love savage black people. I'm like the Master of Cerempnies for rioters and looters.

The Xl
08-16-2014, 12:45 PM
at least 50 lbs

Their aren't too many people jacked at 240 at 6'4, either. It's not impossible, but rare

The Xl
08-16-2014, 12:46 PM
That's pretty lean, right? I'm 5 11 and about 195, and people call me "skinny".

195 is pretty thick for 5'11, it's not bad at all.

The Xl
08-16-2014, 12:49 PM
http://www.h4-entertainment.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/dossantos_junior1.jpg

This is former UFC heavyweight champ Junior Dos Santos at 6'4 240.

lel at 290 being achievable aside from a genetic freak. 240 is rare as fuck. And this is what 6'2-6'4 275lbs-290lbs looks like, in shape.

http://www2.cdn.sherdog.com/_images/pictures/20140131021817_5D3_9607.JPG

http://quickwrestlingnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/brock-lesnar-weigh-in.jpg

CreepyOldDude
08-18-2014, 02:35 PM
Not if he'sSmashed your face in and tried to take your gun.

Oh, dear, the officer got punched in the face? The poor thing.

I forget, how many times was he stabbed, or shot, or, indeed, suffered any life-threatening injuries at all?

Because Brown was shot six times. None at close enough range to leave powder stippling. Which is decidedly odd, given that Brown was supposed to struggling for the gun when he was shot the first time.

CreepyOldDude
08-18-2014, 02:47 PM
That is the point. A qualified peace officer wouldn't get smashed in the face. He would have controlled the situation.

You hire unqualified people and their gun is their lifeline.


I think it would be hard for anyone to control the movements of a six foot four inch 290 pound man. Let's stop calling him a kid. He was 18. That's an adult male.

See, this is where you get into trouble. You don't pay attention to what is actually written. Instead, you seem to apply information that you pull out of somewhere. I suspect you watch Fox. They're good at that sort of thing.