Invisible Man Cast Shadow Over US-China Talks.....

[MMC]

http://l.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/Bzvc2HuMf0lNyJqf5dcPug--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Y2g9MTI0NTtjcj0xO2N3PTE4Njc7ZHg9MD tkeT0wO2ZpPXVsY3JvcDtoPTEyNztxPTg1O3c9MTkw/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/4e5fa0b52f4d510c0e0f6a706700ac64.jpg

WASHINGTON (AP) — The blind Chinese lawyer at the center of a diplomatic storm between Washington and Beijing is a taboo topic in each capital. Neither side wants the biggest human-rights issue between the two since Tiananmen Square to disrupt high-level strategic and economic talks set to begin Thursday.

Obama himself refused to address the issue Monday, declining to confirm that the blind lawyer is under U.S. protection in China or that American diplomats are attempting to negotiate an agreement for him to receive asylum.

Neither Obama nor Clinton offered information as the administration and the Chinese government sought to prevent the biggest human-rights issue with China since the 1989 Tiananmen Square demonstrations from disrupting high-level strategic and economic talks set to begin in Beijing on Thursday. Clinton left Washington for Beijing late Monday night.

"Both sides want to solve this in a low-key manner and they do not want this to dominate other issues in the (strategic and economic) dialogue so that's why they are working hard to find a speedy solution," said Bob Fu of the Texas-based rights group ChinaAid, which was involved in Chen's escape from house arrest last week and his subsequent arrival into the protection of U.S. diplomats in Beijing.

Obama's options are limited. Facing a tough fight for re-election in November, he cannot afford to ignore the situation. Doing nothing to help a visually impaired, self-taught lawyer who has fought against forced abortions and corruption in China would open Obama up to attacks from his presumed Republican opponent, Mitt Romney. It would also draw intense criticism from the human rights community in the United States, one of his core constituencies.....snip~

http://news.yahoo.com/invisible-man-casts-shadow-over-us-china-talks-192704985--finance.html

Hey RW I think this guy may be connected to some issue with Bo. Both sides being explained as cautious. Why would the Chinese need to be cautious? Moreover why are we concerned if the Chinese people have free movemment in their Country? Should we be involving ourselves with this guy. Or just focus on the task at hand?

[MMC]

Clinton wants to bring up everything in the talks. The Chinese want to engage in strategic talks. Especially with Syria and Iran. Also as they stated they would assist the IMF in Europe but did not give any amount or total with their discussion. So it's not like we can place hard pressure on the Chinese over this guy wanting to defect. Well, it says he would prefer to stay. But not be imprioned.

[Peter1469]

I wonder what is going to happen to the Chinese security people responsible for letting a blind man get away.... :shocked:

[MMC]

Why wouldnt the Chinese tell us to give him up knowing he is at a US Embassy? Should the US be concerned if the People of China are free and or have freedom of movement in their country?

[Peter1469]

Neither side wants to escalate this issue. I imagine the blind dude will lay low for several months or longer and then when the press stops nosing around the Chinese will let us evacuate him to some penthouse in NYC.

[MMC]

And should we be concerned if the Chinese are Free and have Freedom of movemment in their own country? As Clinton Professed.

[RollingWave]

Why wouldnt the Chinese tell us to give him up knowing he is at a US Embassy? Should the US be concerned if the People of China are free and or have freedom of movement in their country?

There's a few issue here, first is that Chen's considerablly more eligable for the international standard of asylum than say.. Wang Li Jiun (the deputy of Bo Xi Lai who suddenly ran to a US Embassy a few monthgs ago), second is that Chen's case is already known in public where as Wang's was not widely spread until after the fact, and then 3rdly is that Chen is relatively unimportant for the PRC, he is afterall just a lawyer (in a country where the judisary system is unreliable at best), not a politician or even a big money busnisesmen.


I wonder what is going to happen to the Chinese security people responsible for letting a blind man get away.... :shocked: To be fair he was only under mild house arrest, though yeah it is pretty embarrasing to let a blind guy get away.... I'd think that someone's going to get a new post in the most remote Himalayian or Gobi desert station :grin:


And should we be concerned if the Chinese are Free and have Freedom of movemment in their own country? As Clinton Professed. There are international laws regarding Asylums and also federal laws, Chen is about as qualified as a person can reasonablly get in terms of this, the real problem is that now the media is all over this there's no way to just quietly do this. and if there is one area where the US can still claim fairly consistent morality highground then asylum seeker is pretty high on the (relatively limited) list.



Hey RW I think this guy may be connected to some issue with Bo. Both sides being explained as cautious. Why would the Chinese need to be cautious? Moreover why are we concerned if the Chinese people have free movemment in their Country? Should we be involving ourselves with this guy. Or just focus on the task at hand?

The difference with the Bo case is that the people involved in running to the embassy was a political figure, and what's worse is that while he may be persecuted at that point per say, has himself been quite guilty of executing persecution himself .

[MMC]

This morning I heard Chen left the US Embassy and is now in the Hospital. Seems he got injured in his escape from house arrest. He also has a US Ambassador with him. First thing they said was he had a call with SOS Clinton. Thats it was an Emotional call. That he told Hillary he wanted to kiss her. Isnt that Sweet?

Okay there are International laws for Asylum. Why is the US concerned? What makes this guy so great? What.....because he reported forced abortions in China. He wants to go to school. As he has no formal education.

Again does the US have the right to be making any type of calls to the Chinese about Freedoms in their Country? Should we be concerned about wether the Chinese people have freedom of movement in their Country?

[RollingWave]

Okay there are International laws for Asylum. Why is the US concerned? What makes this guy so great? What.....because he reported forced abortions in China. He wants to go to school. As he has no formal education.

Again does the US have the right to be making any type of calls to the Chinese about Freedoms in their Country? Should we be concerned about wether the Chinese people have freedom of movement in their Country?

They don't have to do anything, they're essentially letting a guy into the US (btw, embassy grounds count as that country's soverign state, so technically he is in the US the moment he crossed the gate), and uses special rules so that nomral visas rules don't apply to him. it is a simple matter of freedom of choice. the US let many of the Tianamen protest leaders into the US (amongst many other people, like say... a ton of Jews before /during/After WW2)

This is simply a passive method of the US and other western country in stressing their supposed morality in terms of human rights in individual liberty, and it is far less controversial than say... invading a country to install a fake democratic government :grin:

For the PRC, it's embarrasing because the news is out and he is amongst one of the higher profiled dissidents, other wise dozens if not hundreds of similar cases happen every year. you should check out how many folks the US actually takes in as political refugee, the number will probably surprise you.

If the US really wanted to actively force such issues they'd ask for china to release noble prize winner Liu Xiao Po and folks like that...

[MMC]

Yeah.....Chen has decided to stay in China. He won't be coming to the US.

You are probably right on how many seek asylum. Wouldn't happen to have any stats do you? Don't get me wrong I am not sticking up for the Chinese. Yet when it comes to history.....I can understand why they would tell the US don't lecture us. One point is that China has laws concerning having kids. Not that I agree with their laws. The the fact of the matter is they did so by passing laws. As in rule of Law.

So for Clinton to be making remarks concerning humanitarian reasons. Shouldnt be concerned about that perception of Law that we so proudly hail?

[RollingWave]

Yeah.....Chen has decided to stay in China. He won't be coming to the US.

You are probably right on how many seek asylum. Wouldn't happen to have any stats do you? Don't get me wrong I am not sticking up for the Chinese. Yet when it comes to history.....I can understand why they would tell the US don't lecture us. One point is that China has laws concerning having kids. Not that I agree with their laws. The the fact of the matter is they did so by passing laws. As in rule of Law.

So for Clinton to be making remarks concerning humanitarian reasons. Shouldnt be concerned about that perception of Law that we so proudly hail?

I don't have the latest data but...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_in_the_United_States#Refugee_quotas

in the mid 2000s on average the US took in around 45k per year in asylum seekers, East Asia (i'd assume most would be from the mainland) accounted for around 8k per year in those years.

[RollingWave]

So not too surprisingly both side downplayed this and now Chen and his family is hapily in New York and he's going to enroll in NYU. as i pointed out earlier, Chen's simply too insignificant for the PRC to really go nuts over, especially not when they're in the middle of a (less than smooth) power transfer.

[Trinnity]

I'm not real happy with the erosion of OUR rights right here in America.
Not to mention the UN treaties Obama is trying to get ratified.

[MMC]

I am not happy that they are going to give Chen a College Education when he has no formal education. It clearly stated he learned on his own and by studying videos on humanitarian Plight. No High School Education.....No Diploma. Just how does he get to enter college and be given a home for him and his family to live in, besides off the tax-payers money.

Sorry is there some other country he can run to to leech off of? Time for Hillary to pull her Head out of her azz and quit making concessions to foreigners treating them as US Citizens.

[Trinnity]

We're doing all that for him on our dime? I didn't know.

[RollingWave]

FWIW, i'm pretty sure NYU's scholarship program is paying for most of that. and most of the NYU scholarship funding comes out of their own foundation and donations from across the world anyway.

[MMC]

FWIW, i'm pretty sure NYU's scholarship program is paying for most of that. and most of the NYU scholarship funding comes out of their own foundation and donations from across the world anyway.

How does he get past the High School diploma other than by taking a G.E.D. SO the State of NY and the Feds will Contribute with Funding and those Student loans. Which I am betting he won't have to pay back. Besides whatever donations from the Privately funded school.

Think NYU will provide a home for him and his family? Or will that be the State of NY and the Feds too? Just what type of job will he be given to afford living in NY and going to NYU? Most of that will be on the tax-payers dime. Moreso the NY Tax-payer.

[RollingWave]

I'm obviously far from the ground so I can only relay what I hear from news etc.. seems that he's living in the NYU's dorm, i'm fairly sure the State department and NYU probably helped setup a special case for him to by pass the normal education law requirments (a lot of them are NYU's own anyway) , I mean there was a recent case in UC Berkley were a refugee from the Bosnian wars (who was working as a janitor in UC Berkely over the last couple decades) somehow managed to finish it's classical literature course and got a undregrade diploma from UCB, I'm pretty sure he had some qualification problems at the start at well.

Not to meantion, there are plenty of private funding going into the cause of Chinese humanitarian rights issue anyway, including those from previous benifactors such as the Tianemen incident people... (many of their leaders fled to the US in even more scary circumstances, most are doing well today as Professors etc.)

[MMC]

I'm obviously far from the ground so I can only relay what I hear from news etc.. seems that he's living in the NYU's dorm, i'm fairly sure the State department and NYU probably helped setup a special case for him to by pass the normal education law requirments (a lot of them are NYU's own anyway) , I mean there was a recent case in UC Berkley were a refugee from the Bosnian wars (who was working as a janitor in UC Berkely over the last couple decades) somehow managed to finish it's classical literature course and got a undregrade diploma from UCB, I'm pretty sure he had some qualification problems at the start at well.

Not to meantion, there are plenty of private funding going into the cause of Chinese humanitarian rights issue anyway, including those from previous benifactors such as the Tianemen incident people... (many of their leaders fled to the US in even more scary circumstances, most are doing well today as Professors etc.)


Is his family living in that dorm? How does this change the problem of the US always taking in refugees and fitting the bill for it? As you aptly point out bending some rules that American Citizens themselves don't get. Think the Chinese government assisted in any financial burden for him. Travel expenses and or some living expenses? Yet they allowed us to take him.....huh?

[RollingWave]

Well I'd think if you argue that the Germans or other Jews should pay for all the post WW2 stuff for Holocust survivors you'd get into a ton of trouble... just saying..


Dorm may not necceasrily mean student dorm you know... it could be faculty dorm... and some Post Graduate Dorms are made to accomidate familes as well since some of those folks are not exactly 20 year olds obviously, I know when my father studied at UPenn there were dorms that can accomadate small families (though we lived on rent in the suburbs, our neighbor was some bigshot in China's offical TV station.)

Well, the NYU is a private institue no? not to meantion mandatory education in the US does not include under grade / post grad, so the laws there inherently is more geared to let the schools themself decide, espeically private once.

At the end of the day of course the US COULD come out and say we will never care what other country do with their own citizens even if they slaughter children and package them up as meat or somethign, though I'd point out that if we vote on it it's not going to be a super popular declartion in the US either, even conservative politicians will face very serious backlash from Chruchs and stuff if they push that as a real agenda, and at the end of the day foreign aid makes up for a very very small part of the US budget. the political refugee they take in are more often than not capable folks who turn out to be a net asset for the US both in practical terms (occupation etc) or more abstract once (morale high grounds.)

(not to meantion the rather obvious problem that the highest per-capita country for US AID is.... Israel... where as China is no where near on the list of relavent receivers , that and total AID, of which most of it is military... accounts for about 1.5% of the Federal budget.)

[MMC]

I am sure we have our share of Humanitarian activists.

Do you think Clinton could have found him another Country to live in? Go to school in?

Myself I don't think any foreigner should have an advantage over tax-paying citizens. I wouldn't care if the guy discovered who the Anti-Christ was.....nor any atrocity he committed. As I am sure NYU could give that same oppourtunity to some kid in our own Country.

[RollingWave]

Well, I don't know about what most US citizens think but most intellectuals outside the US, when pointing out the one thing that truely reflect USA's might, would point to the number of foreign students enroll in it's high education, beating it's military capacity by overwhelming number. I'd point out that if the US shuts it's door to foreign students in general, it would be in my opinion, the single most disastorous national policy since the Ming dynasty decided to ban all public and private Maritime operation in the 1500s.

Ask any scholar / professor / intellectual worth their shite and 99% of them will tell you that it's not the school that makes the students, but the students that make the school.

[MMC]

Foreign Exchange Student Program helps to solve that.....Although, myself I don't think West Point or Annapolis should take any Foreigners in, like they do now.