The cheese is in the room amd so are all the rats

[texan]

Kill them now!

ISIS is attracting all the idiots into one place, KILL THEM before they disperse.

[donttread]

Kill them now!

ISIS is attracting all the idiots into one place, KILL THEM before they disperse.

Sigh

[texan]

Me too sigh!

my sigh is due to all the lame ass Americans around here.

[Peter1469]

Me too sigh!

my sigh is due to all the lame ass Americans around here.

What is the goal? How will you achieve it? How will you support the mission?

[Archer0915]

Leave them alone for now. Let them hit something that belongs to the US and then relase all hell on them. Nuke the motherfuckers! Kill everything! All they understand is violence and since they are run by religious nuts hellfire should fix them.

[Private Pickle]

Kill them now!

ISIS is attracting all the idiots into one place, KILL THEM before they disperse.

If you want to fight radicalism it will take more than body count.

Let em at it until they mess with the oil...then step in as needed.

[del]

Kill them now!

ISIS is attracting all the idiots into one place, KILL THEM before they disperse.

well, you'd best head on over there, cowboy

[Private Pickle]

well, you'd best head on over there, cowboy

This is so old...

[del]

This is so old...

you can go with him

[Private Pickle]

you can go with him

Nah I will just keep my opinion and not go while laughing at those who think someone has to serve if they advocate for an action...

[Dr. Who]

Nah I will just keep my opinion and not go while laughing at those who think someone has to serve if they advocate for an action...
Well if you advocate for action, in order that action take place, someone has to serve.

[Ethereal]

Well if you advocate for action, in order that action take place, someone has to serve.

Yea, someone else!

:grin:

[Dr. Who]

Yea, someone else!

:grin:
Well unless the development of robotics is further along than it would seem. Yes.

[Private Pickle]

Well if you advocate for action, in order that action take place, someone has to serve.

Yeah. We have a volunteer military.

[Dr. Who]

Yeah. We have a volunteer military.
Yes, increasingly comprised of people who have fewer employment choices and the hope that they can develop marketable skills by joining - if they survive.

[Private Pickle]

Yes, increasingly comprised of people who have fewer employment choices and the hope that they can develop marketable skills by joining - if they survive.

Many make a career by it.

[Dr. Who]

Many make a career by it.
The ones that are not killed or maimed.

[Private Pickle]

The ones that are not killed or maimed.

I hear Alaskan Crab fishing is dangerous too.

[Dr. Who]

I hear Alaskan Crab fishing is dangerous too.
Anybody from NYC, or LA or Chicago becoming Alaskan Crab fishers? Is anyone not from Alaska becoming Crab fishers?

[PolWatch]

I don't think many 19 year old crab fisherman sign up because they thought they were performing a noble duty for their country, only to find out they were used for other reasons...imho

[Private Pickle]

I don't think many 19 year old crab fisherman sign up because they thought they were performing a noble duty for their country, only to find out they were used for other reasons...imho

Interesting given the vast majority of Americans view serving in the military to be patriotic.

[Private Pickle]

Anybody from NYC, or LA or Chicago becoming Alaskan Crab fishers? Is anyone not from Alaska becoming Crab fishers?

Sure all the time. As a matter of fact it is a seasonal job with most of the people coming in from Washington State.

[Dr. Who]

Sure all the time. As a matter of fact it is a seasonal job with most of the people coming in from Washington State.
I did not know that.

[Private Pickle]

I did not know that.

Well it's mostly because no one wants to live where they crab fish because it is unbelievably cold, either dark all the time or light all the time and full bears that can eat you like a salmon.

[Dr. Who]

Well it's mostly because no one wants to live where they crab fish because it is unbelievably cold, either dark all the time or light all the time and full bears that can eat you like a salmon.
I've watched some of those programs on TV. It seems like a harsh life. It certainly isn't for the faint of heart.

[Private Pickle]

I did not know that.

Here is another interesting fact or two from the following sources:

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi_rates_2012hb.pdf
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_in_the_War_in_Af ghanistan#Casualties_by_month_and_year

Now in 2012 we had 301 KIA in the military.

In 2012 there were 4,175 deaths in the Private Industry. 806 in Construction for example.

[Private Pickle]

I've watched some of those programs on TV. It seems like a harsh life. It certainly isn't for the faint of heart.

It just seems like it would be depressing to me...but then again I live in CO. We get 300 days of sunshine a year.

[PolWatch]

Interesting given the vast majority of Americans view serving in the military to be patriotic.

I must not have explained my thoughts well enough...to me, patriotic = noble duty to country. Not the usual reason to sign up for season catching crabs...imho. Disillusion was very common after Viet Nam and seems to be fairly common now, after Iraq. No so much for fisherman (unless they don't catch crabs). I don't think the danger of fishing is comparable to serving your country in the military.

[Dr. Who]

Here is another interesting fact or two from the following sources:

http://www.bls.gov/iif/oshwc/cfoi/cfoi_rates_2012hb.pdf
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_in_the_War_in_Af ghanistan#Casualties_by_month_and_year

Now in 2012 we had 301 KIA in the military.

In 2012 there were 4,175 deaths in the Private Industry. 806 in Construction for example.
I think that per capita, the military deaths were greater.

[Private Pickle]

I must not have explained my thoughts well enough...to me, patriotic = noble duty to country. Not the usual reason to sign up for season catching crabs...imho. Disillusion was very common after Viet Nam and seems to be fairly common now, after Iraq. No so much for fisherman (unless they don't catch crabs). I don't think the danger of fishing is comparable to serving your country in the military.

And yet the vast majority of Americans view military service as patriotic. So either the "dilution" is overblown or the military does indeed provide a place for a good career and a noble duty to country.

[Private Pickle]

I think that per capita, the military deaths were greater.

Per capita? It actually depends on the number of hours worked. The highest injury rating looks to be logging at 129.9. They had 63 deaths in 2012.

[PolWatch]

And yet the vast majority of Americans view military service as patriotic. So either the "dilution" is overblown or the military does indeed provide a place for a good career and a noble duty to country.

agreed. I also think that we have a duty to make sure our government is a good steward of their lives. They deserve more respect than to be used in wars that have little to do with protection of the nation.

[Animal Mother]

And yet the vast majority of Americans view military service as patriotic. So either the "dilution" is overblown or the military does indeed provide a place for a good career and a noble duty to country.

I'm sorry that was funny. OK good night.

[Private Pickle]

agreed. I also think that we have a duty to make sure our government is a good steward of their lives. They deserve more respect than to be used in wars that have little to do with protection of the nation.

Here we go...

They joined the military voluntarily. I think the U.S. probably watches out for its troops more than any other country....even "per capita". Is it perfect absolutely not. Can we do better? Of course. Don't take away their sacrifice for your political talking point.

[Private Pickle]

I'm out too. Night night.

[Dr. Who]

Per capita? It actually depends on the number of hours worked. The highest injury rating looks to be logging at 129.9. They had 63 deaths in 2012.
I find it hard to compare. Military units are on duty sometimes 24 hours a day. Then they are off. There are far fewer members of the military sent overseas than people typically employed in those hazardous jobs. I'm willing to change my mind if you can come up with comparable statistics.

[Animal Mother]

I find it hard to compare. Military units are on duty sometimes 24 hours a day. Then they are off. There are far fewer members of the military sent overseas than people typically employed in those hazardous jobs. I'm willing to change my mind if you can come up with comparable statistics.

He's forgetting to mention this thing called body armor and kevlar. That kinda helps.

[Dr. Who]

He's forgetting to mention this thing called body armor and kevlar. That kinda helps.
Which I assume helps when the enemy takes a body shot but doesn't help much with a head shot, shot to a leg artery or explosive device.

[Private Pickle]

I find it hard to compare. Military units are on duty sometimes 24 hours a day. Then they are off. There are far fewer members of the military sent overseas than people typically employed in those hazardous jobs. I'm willing to change my mind if you can come up with comparable statistics.

Look if you join the military and don't get sent overseas you've still joined the military. What you're asking me to do is stack numbers from a source I've already given to you to serve your purpose. Why would I do that for you? Your mind is yours. Do with it as you will.

[Private Pickle]

Which I assume helps when the enemy takes a body shot but doesn't help much with a head shot, shot to a leg artery or explosive device.

Construction workers wear hard hats...

[Green Arrow]

When are you hopping in a jet, texan?

[Codename Section]

Kill them now!

ISIS is attracting all the idiots into one place, KILL THEM before they disperse.

That was Rumsfeld's and Wolfowitz's plan on Iraq and that didn't work out. All the idiots aren't there in one place. Islamic jihadists are born every day so they can't all be there.

Why do we keep making the same mistakes over and over again?

[Private Pickle]

When are you hopping in a jet, @texan (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=979)?

Fail.

[Mainecoons]

There are something like 2 billion Islamists in the world, the great majority being fed a steady diet of Jihad, intolerance and the oppression of women. It's all right there in the Koran and there's a bunch of Imams feeding it to them non stop. There are millions of Jihadists and many millions more who support them actively or passively. You will never be able to kill them all off. Never.

The only solution is to get over the PC nonsense and recognize this "religion" is really a political/military movement for world conquest and subjugation. What we are doing now by allowing it to migrate and operate in our countries is no different than if we openly imported and tolerated Nazism in the Forties.

It needs to be quarantined and rooted out of the western world.

[Peter1469]

We can start assassinating their financial providers and bankers who help move their money.

[Green Arrow]

Fail.

Your opinion has been noted and filed with the correct department. We appreciate you contacting us.

[Codename Section]

Fail.

I thought it was a score. Take your subjective, intangible feelings and address yourself. Hey, did you know we have a lot of trees in the US now?

[Private Pickle]

I thought it was a score. Take your subjective, intangible feelings and address yourself. Hey, did you know we have a lot of trees in the US now?

Not as many as we do assholes...

[Codename Section]

Not as many as we do assholes...

That's the truth. I hate assholes.

[texan]

That was Rumsfeld's and Wolfowitz's plan on Iraq and that didn't work out. All the idiots aren't there in one place. Islamic jihadists are born every day so they can't all be there.

Why do we keep making the same mistakes over and over again?


Not exactly bro.................The recruitment from all over has been working and 100's of Americans and 1000's of Europeans are there. Also, Wordsmithing Rumsfeld is interesting. Are you eliminating the surge, by injecting his name, that got control? War is war you change tactics to win, we won. We should have gotten a status of forces agreement and continued the peace and training, instead we tore it down per Obama in his debate with Rmney (on record).

Now we have this mess thanks to his foreign policy.

I am open to ideas, when is it you want to fight them and where? They will have to be fought despite your head in the sand. They have made this clear.

[Alyosha]

We should learn to fight them here because they are here.

[texan]

OBAMA: “What I would not have done is left 10,000 troops in Iraq that would tie us down. That certainly would not help us in the Middle East."

[Mainecoons]

Correct.

[texan]

We should learn to fight them here because they are here.

Very good...............Now that you realize we have to fight them don't be so short sighted by awaiting for them to return. You are getting smarter, but still have room for more improvement.

[Green Arrow]

Is it the money, texan? Is that what is keeping you from suiting up? If so, I will happily start a collection for your one-way ticket to Iraq.

[Private Pickle]

We should learn to fight them here because they are here.

Agreed

[Private Pickle]

Is it the money, @texan (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=979)? Is that what is keeping you from suiting up? If so, I will happily start a collection for your one-way ticket to Iraq.

Another fail.

[texan]

Green remember when you said that I called you an idiot? Don't act like one.

What makes you think I haven't been already or have a kid that has? What makes you act like an idiot?

[texan]

Know whats interesting? If we would have done what was necessary and got the Status of Services agreement completed we wouldn't be talking about this now.

Otherside of the coin, we couldn't have forced a regime change like we have. Good thing to happen, but what is the price?

Had we done something in January or last August (when we were busy drawing redlines), we wouldn't be talking about this now.


Can you see the common thread among everything we could have done or should do?

[Green Arrow]

Another fail.

Do you have something intelligent to say?

[Green Arrow]

Green remember when you said that I called you an idiot? Don't act like one.

What makes you think I haven't been already or have a kid that has? What makes you act like an idiot?

You should go now, if it's so important. Put your money where your mouth is and put your life at risk before you demand others risk their lives for your own.

[Peter1469]

Keeping troops in Iraq would just kick the can down the road. These people have been fighting each other since 680AD. The entire governance system of the Middle East is collapsing and most solutions from the West is to put tape on the old system. The only tape that would have worked would have been another Strongman Dictator in Iraq and supporting the one in Syria.

[texan]

Do you have something intelligent to say?

Do you?

[texan]

You should go now, if it's so important. Put your money where your mouth is and put your life at risk before you demand others risk their lives for your own.

Great Cliche', ever had an original thought?

[Peter1469]

Warning: get back on topic. Use the PM feature to insult each other.

[texan]

BTW you haven't offered a single solution or idea that isn't one of the same of people that said Hitler was no problem. Couldn't strike us here they said. Oh I know I know ISIS doesn't compare to Hitler. Of course they do not at this time. It is a different world than back then, but they pose the same type plan. So it is a valid question of how, when and where to fight them. Because you don't think we should do anything you belittle everyone for debating the issue because you are obviously right, right?

Well I gotta tell you I don't have access to the intel and have no problem debating the various options. But do you? LOL! You don't give care about the truth or whats best, you are a one track mind. A mind that would have had you speaking german back in the day. Be thankful there are varying opinions and things get debated. It is what makes us unique and provides the success's that we have had.

Just remember this, one damn successful attack here and you will be in a 10% minority in this country. The old song we will put a boot in your ass will make a comeback. So pretty please before you whine about name calling anymore why don't you stop with your own insults and actually make an argument for a change?

News flash it takes all of us and all the opinions to make good decisions. Trust me when I say I have big reservations about doing anything but not for the cliche'd reasons the dem talking points are on every issue. But history says we will have to fight, there will always be holy wars and conquest efforts in the world. We basically live in a phone booth world now and anyone can be attacked. So how do you slow them? Opinions vary and are healthy discussions.

[texan]

And Peter trust me whan i say i would like a good debate. But the kids of the world and their internet manners of name calling and taunting get old. I attempted to head off any trouble with Green by apologizing the other day if he thought I think he is stupid. You know build a relationship for debate?


But you see what reaching across the isle gets you sometimes. He doesn't really make an argument anywhere or even say you could be right. I will tell you I appreciate his opinion after what we have gone through recently. But the question is easy, is this the same type issue that we recently experienced or a different issue and foe? One rule doesn't necessarily fit all scenarios.

So where am I wrong?

[texan]

The German Submarine, U-701, is in the Atlantic Ocean off Cape Hatteras, North Carolina, far from her home. She came to the American shore during World War Two on a mission to send American and Allied vessels to the bottom. Due to the skill and luck of the American defenders along with the classic fate of war, she now rests on the bottom of the Western Atlantic sharing the fate of her victims.

http://www.divehatteras.com/U-701.html

enimies can get to our shores, sometimes we fight them overseas.

[Peter1469]

What are our goals regarding the Islamic State?

To destroy it?
To occupy and nation build it into something different that what it is today?
To containing it?
To give our Kurdish and Shia allies breathing room to settle the matter themselves?

At the same time we have to consider our goals with Iraq as a whole and with Kurdistan. Because those goals conflict.

Once we decide upon a goal, then we can discuss the ways and means to accomplish it. But realize that number 1 and 2 will likely go together and take 150,000 boots on the ground and a decade or longer commitment of blood and treasure.

[Mini Me]

Keeping troops in Iraq would just kick the can down the road. These people have been fighting each other since 680AD. The entire governance system of the Middle East is collapsing and most solutions from the West is to put tape on the old system. The only tape that would have worked would have been another Strongman Dictator in Iraq and supporting the one in Syria.

Riiiiight!

We don't know when to leave well enough alone!

Iraq needs to be divided into 3 nations:

Kurdistan(our good oil buddies)
Sunnistan
Shitestan(annexed by Iran)

The Brits sure left us a mess, just like the French left a mess in Vietnam from colonialization.

Brutal Dick Taters is all they respect, and head chopping Imams!

[texan]

First of all I don't care about them fighting each other. Go right ahead so we agree on that issue.

Now I do care about the outreach through their marketing campaign that is drawing the interest of people from around the world. I care that they will try and kill us here. My question is what do we need to do to keep them fighting each other over there? Also, these groups are all the same with rebranding and different leaders as others are killed off.

Mistake 1: Leaving Iraq unprotected. When you pay what we did it was dumb to leave like we did. We had intel set up, places established to defend if necessary. If we were there they never crossed that border. I especially don't like the two face lying that was done to my face by Obama. Make your choice and stick with it! Don't piss down my back and tell me its raining. Staying has become a simple factual reality we got wrong.

Mistake 2: Not nipping the cancer in its budding phases. I tend to agree that you can never know friend or foe over there, no doubt. But sometimes you have to meddle behind the scenes to keep things in check. We withdrew, acknowledged the problem rising, procrastinated forever and then wonder how we got where we are today with these goons.

*I watched a special report on the structure of these people and how they are operating from PR down to the field soldier. It is very well thought out from a structural standpoint. They are not flying by the seat of their pants like "rebel fighters." This kind of organization needs to be thumped and shaken a bit. I am fine with walking quietly and carrying a big stick. Don't confuse our approach with this approach.

*It is a fool that thinks we cannot fight them over there and fight them over here. I am not loading up the military and moving into a huge ground war. I am not for that this time like the last time. But I am for aggressive airpower and special forces taking them apart with the locals. Peter will say we are doing this right now. Our President says we are not doing this right now. Am I being lied too? BTW my brother is a 25 year ex pilot leiutenant colonel fly in war zones. He still has access to information and tells me we are doing very little at this time. But the military is pressuring the administration to move faster on a plan. He was high enough up the flag pole that he flew the big shots around like Biden. BTW wanna know why Biden spent so much time over there? Because he was interested? LOL. NO, because if you spend a certain amount of time in a war zone your check is tax free and he was said to be there working that liek clock work.

*I posted this thread after watching a TV discussion on the issue. The line about the cheese and rats was used I pirated the line. It is an interesting point of view. On one hand I would assume we can watch those people since we can probably identify most one way open ended type tickets. On the other why mess with them or maybe lose them at some piont and have them blow something up. Bomb them while they are there no court needed.

What are our goals regarding the Islamic State?

To destroy it? Damage it
To occupy and nation build it into something different that what it is today? NO, that ship sailed
To containing it? Sort of you'll never kill all the roaches we must continue to the extermination and maintenance
To give our Kurdish and Shia allies breathing room to settle the matter themselves? Yes I would side with the kurds.

[Peter1469]

The US is providing air support in Iraq now. Nowhere new what was going on during out last war. The press reports something around 20 airstrikes a day. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

State a goal.

You narrowed down to damaging IS and to siding with the Kurds.

That is relatively easy to do so long as the IS continues to fight as a military force and does not revert back to terrorists hiding in the city.

We need to then consider that the state of Iraq is over.

[texan]

Again knowing about this for a year and sitting on our ass despite what appears to be everyone in teh world saying it was happening is unforgivable from a national security standpoint, period! This is obvious now.

[texan]

The US is providing air support in Iraq now. Nowhere new what was going on during out last war. The press reports something around 20 airstrikes a day. Sometimes more, sometimes less.

State a goal. We can go from there.

You need me to? I would like our President to and so would the world!!!! You are getting there............PS: bombing here and there in Iraq is not going to do anything except slow them in Iraq. The goal is to damage them, they are in Syria. Obama lied last week AGAIN. I am waiting on plans to be presented, laughable! Plans are there and have been since at least June. He just doesn't like the solutions.

[Peter1469]

I agree that Obama is refusing to commit to a goal.

[Matty]

You need me to? I would like our President to and so would the world!!!! You are getting there............PS: bombing here and there in Iraq is not going to do anything except slow them in Iraq. The goal is to damage them, they are in Syria. Obama lied last week AGAIN. I am waiting on plans to be presented, laughable! Plans are there and have been since at least June. He just doesn't like the solutions.
Please tell me you would not send young Americans back to die in that shithole.

[Green Arrow]

Alright, texan, I'll oblige your courtesy and we'll have a real discussion.

What do you think our strategy for combating ISIL should be?

[Private Pickle]

Do you have something intelligent to say?

Do you or ya gonna stick to the "you can't advocate for war unless you go" meme?

[Private Pickle]

You should go now, if it's so important. Put your money where your mouth is and put your life at risk before you demand others risk their lives for your own.

Answered my question.

[Animal Mother]

Do you or ya gonna stick to the "you can't advocate for war unless you go" meme?

Only pricks advocate for wars they don't intend to go to. In ancient times even old men went off to war because wars were your duty to fight in.

[Matty]

Do you or ya gonna stick to the "you can't advocate for war unless you go" meme?
You have sons? How many of them are going?

[Green Arrow]

Do you or ya gonna stick to the "you can't advocate for war unless you go" meme?

It's not a meme, it's called not being a douchebag. It's cowardly to demand someone else put their lives on the line to defend yours, without doing so yourself. Even kings and emperors rode into battle with their men in the old days. War has become so common precisely because we have largely eliminated such acts.

[Private Pickle]

It's not a meme, it's called not being a douchebag. It's cowardly to demand someone else put their lives on the line to defend yours, without doing so yourself. Even kings and emperors rode into battle with their men in the old days. War has become so common precisely because we have largely eliminated such acts.

No one is demanding anything... People are giving their opinion on a website. You stating someone should "pack their bags then" does nothing to negate the original argument. It is old and it is over played.

War has become so common because people are the most common thing on the planet.

[Green Arrow]

No one is demanding anything... People are giving their opinion on a website. You stating someone should "pack their bags then" does nothing to negate the original argument. It is old and it is over played.

War has become so common because people are the most common thing on the planet.

There is no original argument. "OMG guiz we has to do sumting" is not an argument, it's just being pathetic.

[Private Pickle]

There is no original argument. "OMG guiz we has to do sumting" is not an argument, it's just being pathetic.

It's better than "The sky is blue, your argument is invalid."

[Private Pickle]

You have sons? How many of them are going?

1. Not any if I parent correctly.

[Matty]

1. Not any if I parent correctly.


Then neither should any other American son or daughter.

[Animal Mother]

No one is demanding anything... People are giving their opinion on a website. You stating someone should "pack their bags then" does nothing to negate the original argument. It is old and it is over played.

You say "old and overplayed", others call it "truthful and moral". Don't advocate that others put their ass on the line if you're not prepared to. If you give a shit about something that strongly go do it.

[Private Pickle]

Then neither should any other American son or daughter.

Their call ultimately.

[Private Pickle]

You say "old and overplayed", others call it "truthful and moral". Don't advocate that others put their ass on the line if you're not prepared to. If you give a shit about something that strongly go do it.

2nd Amendment says "Fuuuuuuuuuuuck Youuuuuuuuuuu".

[Animal Mother]

2nd Amendment says "Fuuuuuuuuuuuck Youuuuuuuuuuu".

No. The 2nd Amendment loves me. I'm the one that would rather stay at home and fight to protect my rights from statists with a jihad against American liberty, peepee.

:cool2:

[Green Arrow]

2nd Amendment says "Fuuuuuuuuuuuck Youuuuuuuuuuu".

What's the right to bear arms have to do with this?

[Animal Mother]

What's the right to bear arms have to do with this?

He thinks that they hate us for our freedom and that if we fight ISIS or Anubis overseas that it will make us free at home. The End.

[Private Pickle]

No. The 2nd Amendment loves me. I'm the one that would rather stay at home and fight to protect my rights from statists with a jihad against American liberty, peepee.

:cool2:

Sorry 1st. I was speaking figuratively. With your logic anyone who is too old to go, handicapped, disabled or otherwise unable to join can't have an opinion.

Keep up the good work!

[Private Pickle]

What's the right to bear arms have to do with this?

Good catch. I meant to say the 1st.

[Private Pickle]

He thinks that they hate us for our freedom and that if we fight ISIS or Anubis overseas that it will make us free at home. The End.

Stereotype FTL.

The only reason to fight ISIS is to protect the resources...

[Animal Mother]

I was speaking figuratively. With your logic anyone who is too old to go, handicapped, disabled or otherwise unable to join can't have an opinion.

They can have an opinion on a lot of things but no one should pay attention to them when it comes to war. Only those who can participate or potentially die should have the right to have their opinions on it count since only those people will be risking anything at all.

It's like you can have an opinion on how I spend my money but it's going to count in the long run because you aren't invested in the outcome.




Keep up the good work!

Ok! I will!!!!!!

[Animal Mother]

Stereotype FTL.

The only reason to fight ISIS is to protect the resources...

Whose resources? Other people's? What kind of thug are you? I hope you never move into my neighborhood or I'll have to install an alarm on my vehicle.

[Green Arrow]

I don't have any desire to serve. I also never call for military action. See how that works?

[Private Pickle]

I don't have any desire to serve. I also never call for military action. See how that works?

Yeah. Good for you man. Mind if I have a right to say anything I want to?

[Private Pickle]

Whose resources? Other people's? What kind of thug are you? I hope you never move into my neighborhood or I'll have to install an alarm on my vehicle.

The worst kind. I'm an American.

[Private Pickle]

They can have an opinion on a lot of things but no one should pay attention to them when it comes to war. Only those who can participate or potentially die should have the right to have their opinions on it count since only those people will be risking anything at all.

It's like you can have an opinion on how I spend my money but it's going to count in the long run because you aren't invested in the outcome.



Ok! I will!!!!!!

Good thing the 1st disagrees with you!

[Animal Mother]

Good thing the 1st disagrees with you!

I didn't say they couldn't have an opinion. You can have an opinion on who I date. It just doesn't count for shit because you're not invested.

I realize that's like a difficult concept to grasp seeing as how you also think you should own the world's resources, too, but not everyone wants to be ruled by idiots.

[Private Pickle]

I didn't say they couldn't have an opinion. You can have an opinion on who I date. It just doesn't count for shit because you're not invested.

I realize that's like a difficult concept to grasp seeing as how you also think you should own the world's resources, too, but not everyone wants to be ruled by idiots.

All opinions count for shit... Welcome to internet political discussion.

[Animal Mother]

All opinions count for shit... Welcome to internet political discussion.

False. Opinions matter when the person matters.

[Green Arrow]

Yeah. Good for you man. Mind if I have a right to say anything I want to?

Can you make yourself sound any more pathetic? I'm offering a counter-opinion to your opinion on the internet. Nobody is persecuting you, so yes, you have a right to your opinion.

[Private Pickle]

False. Opinions matter when the person matters.

:laugh: That may be true in real life but this is the Internet.

[Private Pickle]

Can you make yourself sound any more pathetic? I'm offering a counter-opinion to your opinion on the internet. Nobody is persecuting you, so yes, you have a right to your opinion.

Thanks man! Now back to the topic?

[Alyosha]

:laugh: That may be true in real life but this is the Internet.

Oh bother! It's true on the Internet. If you respect or like someone their opinion matters. When they don't matter, their opinion doesn't matter, either.

...even on the Internet.

[Alyosha]

The worst kind. I'm an American.

That's just lovely.

[Private Pickle]

That's just lovely.

You are too...so is he...

[Animal Mother]

You are too...so is he...

I'm not, actually. That's why God made me so good-looking so it makes up for me being an asshole. That's for the compliment though and fyi I'm straight so don't get any ideas.

[Private Pickle]

Oh bother! It's true on the Internet. If you respect or like someone their opinion matters. When they don't matter, their opinion doesn't matter, either.

...even on the Internet.

If you say so! So no handicapped person will ever have a valid opinion about American troop involvement...Gotchya!

[Private Pickle]

I'm not, actually. That's why God made me so good-looking so it makes up for me being an asshole. That's for the compliment though and fyi I'm straight so don't get any ideas.

No? Not an American?

Don't shoot a brother down before you've heard all the benefits!

[Animal Mother]

If you say so! So no handicapped person will ever have a valid opinion about American troop involvement...Gotchya!

Valid and "ought to be able to weigh in on policy" are two different things. Have an opinion, write it down, put it in neon on the back of your wheelchair but unless you're willing to go and can go your opinion counts for shit.

[Green Arrow]

Thanks man! Now back to the topic?

I was discussing the topic. You're the one that enjoys diverting off into irrelevancies and obtuseness.

[Alyosha]

If you say so! So no handicapped person will ever have a valid opinion about American troop involvement...Gotchya!

We're not talking about picking out paint samples for the Congressional building but decisions where people die. I'm sorry, but no. You want war, go to war.

[Alyosha]

I was discussing the topic. You're the one that enjoys diverting off into irrelevancies and obtuseness.

It's the pot.

[Private Pickle]

Valid and "ought to be able to weigh in on policy" are two different things. Have an opinion, write it down, put it in neon on the back of your wheelchair but unless you're willing to go and can go your opinion counts for shit.

Gotchya. Handicapped people's opinion counts for shit. Does that apply to everything? Say for example if you've never been to Europe you can't debate about European current events?

[Private Pickle]

We're not talking about picking out paint samples for the Congressional building but decisions where people die. I'm sorry, but no. You want war, go to war.

So does that also work the other way? If you've never served you don't get a say on how the military is used?

[Private Pickle]

I was discussing the topic. You're the one that enjoys diverting off into irrelevancies and obtuseness.

Actually you got this topic off track by irrelevantly and obtusely telling someone to go to war to have an opinion.

[Private Pickle]

It's the pot.

Don't knock it till you try it.

[Animal Mother]

Actually you got this topic off track by irrelevantly and obtusely telling someone to go to war to have an opinion.

Yes, that's what he was doing. Are you a speshull? It would explain the talk about handicaps.

[Private Pickle]

Yes, that's what he was doing. Are you a speshull? It would explain the talk about handicaps.

Nah...just a Constitutionalist is all. I'm all finished up with ya here. ;)

[Alyosha]

Actually you got this topic off track by irrelevantly and obtusely telling someone to go to war to have an opinion.

That's not what he was saying. I'll assume you're toking hard tonight. He was rightly suggesting that it is hypocritical to not wish to fight but subject others to fighting. Anyone may be a hypocrite, anyone may say what they want, but for their opinion to matter it should have weight.

Hypocrisy does not lend itself well to that.

[Private Pickle]

That's not what he was saying. I'll assume you're toking hard tonight. He was rightly suggesting that it is hypocritical to not wish to fight but subject others to fighting. Anyone may be a hypocrite, anyone may say what they want, but for their opinion to matter it should have weight.

Hypocrisy does not lend itself well to that.

It has nothing to do with the topic of conversation.

[Alyosha]

It has nothing to do with the topic of conversation.

It has everything to do with it.

[Private Pickle]

It has everything to do with it.

Nu uh...

[Alyosha]

Nu uh...

Yuh huh

[Libhater]

Kill them now!

ISIS is attracting all the idiots into one place, KILL THEM before they disperse.

This is what I've been saying all along, but you have doves with heads buried in the sand that want us to get out of there and allow ISIS to continue to grow by making their job of killing Americans that much easier with Obama's open borders. Leftists always throw out the surrender flag to keep traveling on that road of least resistance.

[Alyosha]

This is what I've been saying all along, but you have doves with heads buried in the sand that want us to get out of there and allow ISIS to continue to grow by making their job of killing Americans that much easier with Obama's open borders. Leftists always throw out the surrender flag to keep traveling on that road of least resistance.

Iraq could not fit all the jihadists that's how many there are. :rollseyes:

[Redrose]

Kill them now!

ISIS is attracting all the idiots into one place, KILL THEM before they disperse.

You know that, I know that and anyone with a functioning brain knows that, but the nunk in power is too involved in campaigning and golfing and kibitzing with his jet set loons. He thinks ISIL is wounded and collapsing. He must not be reading his morning paper.

[Dr. Who]

Stereotype FTL.

The only reason to fight ISIS is to protect the resources...
The US can get along without ME oil. There is plenty of it available in the Americas, and lots of new tech that doesn't need oil. Declare a moratorium on all immigration from Muslim countries until all parties in the ME work out their geopolitical divisions, provide aid to refugees, and use the Sedition Act to root out the sources of the spread of Islamist political propaganda internally (Imams etc), try them and put them in jail. Target all websites and IPs that host Islamist political propaganda and shut them down or legally require that they remove the websites.

[Private Pickle]

The US can get along without ME oil. There is plenty of it available in the Americas, and lots of new tech that doesn't need oil. Declare a moratorium on all immigration from Muslim countries until all parties in the ME work out their geopolitical divisions, provide aid to refugees, and use the Sedition Act to root out the sources of the spread of Islamist political propaganda internally (Imams etc), try them and put them in jail. Target all websites and IPs that host Islamist political propaganda and shut them down or legally require that they remove the websites.

And yet Obama is lifting moratoriums and export embargoes for US oil. We are taking all of that extra unrefined crude and exporting it to Europe.

[Animal Mother]

You know that, I know that and anyone with a functioning brain knows that, but the nunk in power is too involved in campaigning and golfing and kibitzing with his jet set loons. He thinks ISIL is wounded and collapsing. He must not be reading his morning paper.

I guess I don't have a functioning brain. Who said that all of ISIL or ISIS or whatever else they want to call themselves now are all in Iraq? This is a hydra situation, cut them off here and more show up there. Cut them off there, more show up here.

People who have no fear of death and are spawned by hatred are not going to be deterred by more violence. We're not fighting your usual war. They want to die. When you bomb areas and civilians are killed, up spring 100 more of them. The only way to get rid of them is to remove their mechanisms of support. They need money, bodies they have.

[texan]

Alright, @texan (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=979), I'll oblige your courtesy and we'll have a real discussion.

What do you think our strategy for combating ISIL should be?


It predated your request as Peter asked and I answered.

-Damage ISIL......
-Shake them at their core in Syria (my biggest complaint), none of the leaders care about us throwing some bombs out in Iraq because they are not there.
-I wouldn't be opposed to going after the leaders family members.

Mostly I would like Obama to stop lying to me on this issue. He has known about this for at the least a year and down played the whole thing. Now its blown up in his face and ours. Better pray no attack happens here.

Caution: 1) bipartisanship here is ruling and he should listen. 2) The Saudi Kings says kill them. 3) Brits say kill them. 4) Pope says kill them, yes teh friggin Pope! 5) Do not confuse this effort with nation building in Iraq, not the same. Don't try and mix teh 2 like its another Iraq war WHICH I WAS AGAINST.

[Green Arrow]

It predated your request as Peter asked and I answered.

-Damage ISIL......
-Shake them at their core in Syria (my biggest complaint), none of the leaders care about us throwing some bombs out in Iraq because they are not there.

By what means, and to accomplish what?

[Codename Section]

And yet Obama is lifting moratoriums and export embargoes for US oil. We are taking all of that extra unrefined crude and exporting it to Europe.

So we stop doing that and then we stop caring about ME oil. Fixed.

[Ethereal]

Here's a novel idea.

Stop radicalizing Muslims by stealing their resources and overthrowing their democratic movements.

Trade with them and expose them to American culture.

[Green Arrow]

Here's a novel idea.

Stop radicalizing Muslims by stealing their resources and overthrowing their democratic movements.

Trade with them and expose them to American culture.

We did that with Saudi Arabia and got 9/11.

Besides, I don't hate anyone so much that I would want to expose them to American culture.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

Here's a novel idea.

Stop radicalizing Muslims by stealing their resources and overthrowing their democratic movements.

Trade with them and expose them to American culture.
Radical Islam hasn't arisen from a lack of exposure to American culture. Radical Islam is a reaction to American culture.

[Private Pickle]

So we stop doing that and then we stop caring about ME oil. Fixed.

So "we" stop doing that... Who is "we"?

[Private Pickle]

We did that with Saudi Arabia and got 9/11.

Besides, I don't hate anyone so much that I would want to expose them to American culture.

Irony from the 51st State.

[Codename Section]

So "we" stop doing that... Who is "we"?

The same "we" you want to secure their resources "we".

[Ethereal]

We did that with Saudi Arabia and got 9/11.

What we did with Saudi Arabia was to help prop up a series a cruel dictators that were friendly towards western oil companies, while helping to establish a Zionist client state in the heart of the Middle East.

And we got 9/11 because the CIA and the FBI failed to share intelligence with each other.


Besides, I don't hate anyone so much that I would want to expose them to American culture.

American culture has moderating effect on those who are exposed to it.


http://youtu.be/tg5qdIxVcz8

[The Xl]

That's just lovely.

Yep, nothing like advocating for murder and theft.

[Private Pickle]

The same "we" you want to secure their resources "we".

Yes. I want their resources secure and not in the hands of rabid jihadists... Oh me so crazy.

[Ethereal]

Radical Islam hasn't arisen from a lack of exposure to American culture. Radical Islam is a reaction to American culture.

It's a reaction to the US government's foreign policy, which I view as distinct from American culture.

[The Xl]

Radical Islam hasn't arisen from a lack of exposure to American culture. Radical Islam is a reaction to American culture.

Radical Islam didn't arise from lack of America exposure, nor did it arise as a reaction to America culture, it rose as a reaction to American interventionism.

[Ethereal]

Yes. I want their resources secure and not in the hands of rabid jihadists... Oh me so crazy.

What you don't seem to realize is that the rabid Jihadists exist largely because of your efforts to "secure" (steal) their resources and subvert their sovereignty.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

It's a reaction to the US government's foreign policy, which I view as distinct from American culture.
Culture is a weapon of state. One of Russia's first moves against Western influence has been to shut down the McDonald's restaurants.

[The Xl]

Yes. I want their resources secure and not in the hands of rabid jihadists... Oh me so crazy.

And by doing so, you create more "radicals"

[Private Pickle]

What you don't seem to realize is that the rabid Jihadists exist largely because of your efforts to "secure" (steal) their resources and subvert their sovereignty.

I realize it. I'm good with it.

Secure =/= Steal (but thanks for playing)

[Private Pickle]

And by doing so, you create more "radicals"

OK but what does that have to do with the fact that we are exporting oil now?

[Gerrard Winstanley]

Radical Islam didn't arise from lack of America exposure, nor did it arise as a reaction to America culture, it rose as a reaction to American interventionism.
See my response to Ethereal. Mister D will like this topic.

[The Xl]

OK but what does that have to do with the fact that we are exporting oil now?

What we're doing here doesn't entitle us to other peoples resources.

[The Xl]

See my response to Ethereal. @Mister D (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=4) will like this topic.

What about American culture has to do with our interventionism?

McDonalds, the NFL, whatever you consider our culture, has nothing to do with meddling in foreign affairs. Not inherently, anyway

[Private Pickle]

What about American culture has to do with our interventionism?

McDonalds, the NFL, whatever you consider our culture, has nothing to do with meddling in foreign affairs. Not inherently, anyway

$

[Private Pickle]

What we're doing here doesn't entitle us to other peoples resources.

I don't think you get it. We are still importing oil from the ME and exporting oil to Japan and Europe.

[The Xl]

$

That doesn't mean it has to extend to other lands.

[The Xl]

I don't think you get it. We are still importing oil from the ME and exporting oil to Japan and Europe.

I'm aware of that, what point are you trying to make? Spell it out.

I'm taking the stance that we don't have a moral right to other peoples stuff, you're not contradicting that point.

[Ethereal]

Culture is a weapon of state. One of Russia's first moves against Western influence has been to shut down the McDonald's restaurants.

Culture is the most effective "weapon" there is, and it's not exclusively the domain of the state, indeed, it can disseminate spontaneously and with far less friction than official state policy.

American music, movies, technology, art, and entrepreneurship are universal aspirations - even ISIS was on Twitter lamenting the death of Robin Williams. The more we trade with and expose the Middle East to our liberal culture, the more of a moderating effect it will have on them, and the more interconnected we will become as a result.

[The Xl]

Our movies, way of life, language, all that shit, has nothing to do with radical Islam. Nothing at all. It's what our military has done in their domain that has caused this issue.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

What about American culture has to do with our interventionism?
Undermining local traditions, whilst promoting alien Western notions and staples, has been the centerpiece of neoliberal imperialism since its inception. In the Middle East, hostility to such encroachment finds a tragic mouthpiece in purist Islam, pan-Arabism and the like.

[Ethereal]

I realize it. I'm good with it.

So you're good with the consequences of that? Terrorism, wars, instability, etc.?


Secure =/= Steal (but thanks for playing)

It's just a euphemism for pushing the local people aside with force and the threat of force and then privatizing the profits amongst an inner circle of elites.

[The Xl]

Undermining local traditions, whilst promoting alien Western notions and staples, has been the centerpiece of neoliberal imperialism since its inception. In the Middle East, hostility to such encroachment finds a tragic mouthpiece in purist Islam, pan-Arabism and the like.

I honestly don't buy that as, at the very least, the primary source of Radical Islam directed towards the US. So long as it's not directly imposed, I don't think it's an issue at all.

[Codename Section]

Undermining local traditions, whilst promoting alien Western notions and staples, has been the centerpiece of neoliberal imperialism since its inception. In the Middle East, hostility to such encroachment finds a tragic mouthpiece in purist Islam, pan-Arabism and the like.

Aren't they exporting and undermining your local traditions?

[Codename Section]

I realize it. I'm good with it.

Secure =/= Steal (but thanks for playing)

Secure does equal steal when the person doesn't want you securing their shit. See how that works? If I don't ask for help it usually means I don't want it, and when you help me by force it feels like a robbery.

[Green Arrow]

What we did with Saudi Arabia was to help prop up a series a cruel dictators that were friendly towards western oil companies, while helping to establish a Zionist client state in the heart of the Middle East.

And we got 9/11 because the CIA and the FBI failed to share intelligence with each other.



American culture has moderating effect on those who are exposed to it.


http://youtu.be/tg5qdIxVcz8

I don't see a world in which "a Big Mac in every pot and a Kardashian on every TV" is a good thing.

[Ethereal]

Undermining local traditions, whilst promoting alien Western notions and staples, has been the centerpiece of neoliberal imperialism since its inception. In the Middle East, hostility to such encroachment finds a tragic mouthpiece in purist Islam, pan-Arabism and the like.

Nobody is forcing or manipulating young Iranians to dance around to Pharrell and upload the video to Youtube. That happens spontaneously because the song engenders the universal aspirations of joy and artistic expression, and because Youtube is an open medium that allows those aspirations to be realized in a social context. These western cultural paradigms are powerful, not because they are being promoted by the state or by "neoliberal imperialism", but because they speak to something inherent within all people.

[The Xl]

I don't see a world in which "a Big Mac in every pot and a Hummer in every garage" is a good thing.

True, but it'd probably be an upgrade over the current way of life over there.

[Green Arrow]

True, but it'd probably be an upgrade over the current way of life over there.

I fixed it. Hummers are dead.

[Ethereal]

I don't see a world in which "a Big Mac in every pot and a Hummer in every garage" is a good thing.

That's a pretty narrow and cynical distillation of American culture.

[Private Pickle]

I'm aware of that, what point are you trying to make? Spell it out.

I'm taking the stance that we don't have a moral right to other peoples stuff, you're not contradicting that point.

Sigh...several points...

1) Oil is a global resource... It doesn't matter what soil we pull it out of it will be dispersed globally as seen here with the US exporting it. We aren't driving it to refineries because the over supply has brought the price of the crude down in the States. That means we export it and our gas prices remain the same or actually increase.

2) That's all cool that you're moral and stuff. Point to where we've "taken other people's stuff"?

3) What happens to "other people's oil" effects us all as seen in point 1.

4) You're being butt fucked by big oil and mostly by Obama who is lifting decades old oil embargos that restricted the US from exporting domestic oil.

[Private Pickle]

Secure does equal steal when the person doesn't want you securing their shit. See how that works? If I don't ask for help it usually means I don't want it, and when you help me by force it feels like a robbery.

What person are we talking about? The Iraqis are begging for our help.

[Private Pickle]

True, but it'd probably be an upgrade over the current way of life over there.

True is it? Do you have a hummer in the garage and a Big Mac in the pot?

[Matty]

What person are we talking about? The Iraqis are begging for our help.
Tough shit. The Iraqi threw down the weapons we gave them and ran away. The ISIS now have those weapons. If the Iraqi want freedom the need to fight and die for it.

[Codename Section]

What person are we talking about? The Iraqis are begging for our help.

They're not begging for our help to secure their oil. They weren't 10 years ago, either. Now, they want help to defend themselves from the group the CIA was propping up against Assad.

[The Xl]

True is it? Do you have a hummer in the garage and a Big Mac in the pot?

I was speaking about American culture generally vs their way of life.

[Private Pickle]

I was speaking about American culture generally vs their way of life.

Do most Americans have Hummers in the garage and Big Macs in their pots? Generally?

[Private Pickle]

They're not begging for our help to secure their oil. They weren't 10 years ago, either. Now, they want help to defend themselves from the group the CIA was propping up against Assad.

These are the days of our lives...

[Codename Section]

Sigh...several points...

1) Oil is a global resource... It doesn't matter what soil we pull it out of it will be dispersed globally as seen here with the US exporting it. We aren't driving it to refineries because the over supply has brought the price of the crude down in the States. That means we export it and our gas prices remain the same or actually increase.


So are "trees". They are global resources. Maybe ISIL should have gone to Washington to help stop that shopping mall from being built.

[Private Pickle]

Tough shit. The Iraqi threw down the weapons we gave them and ran away. The ISIS now have those weapons. If the Iraqi want freedom the need to fight and die for it.

True... I'm talking about the oil...

[Codename Section]

These are the days of our lives...

Look we already have del and he's funnier with these one liners. Can you pump the brakes on the one liners or maybe take over Cigar's style of posting?

[The Xl]

Sigh...several points...

1) Oil is a global resource... It doesn't matter what soil we pull it out of it will be dispersed globally as seen here with the US exporting it. We aren't driving it to refineries because the over supply has brought the price of the crude down in the States. That means we export it and our gas prices remain the same or actually increase.

2) That's all cool that you're moral and stuff. Point to where we've "taken other people's stuff"?

3) What happens to "other people's oil" effects us all as seen in point 1.

4) You're being butt fucked by big oil and mostly by Obama who is lifting decades old oil embargos that restricted the US from exporting domestic oil.

Being over in the Middle East to "protect our interests" is more or less taking their shit.

I'm aware that big oil is "butt fucking" us, and has probably put the kibosh on many sources of alternative energy.

[The Xl]

Do most Americans have Hummers in the garage and Big Macs in their pots? Generally?

Most people eat at McDonalds and other fast food joints and have cars, so I'd say that's close enough.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

Culture is the most effective "weapon" there is, and it's not exclusively the domain of the state, indeed, it can disseminate spontaneously and with far less friction than official state policy.

American music, movies, technology, art, and entrepreneurship are universal aspirations - even ISIS was on Twitter lamenting the death of Robin Williams. The more we trade with and expose the Middle East to our liberal culture, the more of a moderating effect it will have on them, and the more interconnected we will become as a result.
Nobody's saying that American culture is inherently bad, nor is it damaging in itself. The problem is that an Arab's conception of a good society is likely to be completely contrary to the liberal Western ideal. Even attempts by (formally) autonomous leaders to introduce 'modern' ideas into the Islamic world has been met with popular hostility, not moderation and acceptance. The corporocratic structure of the global order right now renders cultural imperialism an inevitability.

We've got to put aside any notion that exposure to our culture is going to change these people. They can take any ideas from us they will, but the forceful approach we take right now is not only futile, but detrimental to all parties involved.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

I honestly don't buy that as, at the very least, the primary source of Radical Islam directed towards the US. So long as it's not directly imposed, I don't think it's an issue at all.

Aren't they exporting and undermining your local traditions?
Though it was meant as a cheap stab at me, Codename Section's point is very valid. Most in the First World hold Islamic culture, even where it is not clearly imposed, with alienation and contempt. We shouldn't expect those in the Middle East to react any differently to our culture on their front-lawn.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

Tough shit. The Iraqi threw down the weapons we gave them and ran away. The ISIS now have those weapons. If the Iraqi want freedom the need to fight and die for it.
This assertion sucks on so many levels. I can't imagine you saying the same about American soldiers.

[Codename Section]

Though it was meant as a cheap stab at me, Codename Section's point is very valid. Most in the First World hold Islamic culture, even where it is not clearly imposed, with alienation and contempt. We shouldn't expect those in the Middle East to react any differently to our culture on their front-lawn.

lol, it wasn't I promise Gerrard Winstanley I just heard a lot about this from PBW. You guys embraced them as a nation and now you have people leaving to fight and bragging how they are going to start beheading people.

This is not sound immigration policies you have.

We should just all leave each other alone and not move around. They can be happy with their culture and us with ours.

[Mister D]

What about American culture has to do with our interventionism?

McDonalds, the NFL, whatever you consider our culture, has nothing to do with meddling in foreign affairs. Not inherently, anyway

Cultural imperialism is easily one of the most effective means of domination the US utilizes. Remember the sentiment 'bombard them with Sears and Roebuck catalogs' from the Cold War? That's a strategy the US continues to use to undermine indigenous resistance to "democracy", human rights, and all that jazz. btw, it's used against us too but that's another topic. Anyway, the US attempts to remake the world in our own image and that is one of the ways in which we attempt to do so. Don't be naive. It's deeply resented.

[Private Pickle]

Cultural imperialism is easily one of the most effective means of domination the US utilizes. Remember the sentiment 'bombard them with Sears and Roebuck catalogs' from the Cold War? That's a strategy the US continues to use to undermine indigenous resistance to "democracy", human rights, and all that jazz. btw, it's used against us too but that's another topic. Anyway, the US attempts to remake the world in our own image and that is one of the ways in which we attempt to do so. Don't be naive. It's deeply resented.

Complete truth.

Story: I was in Croatia as part of UNCRO when I was sitting at a cafe/bar drinking a delicious pivo while translating for some American contractors and some Croatian dignitaries (mostly contractors themselves). They were discussing the lack of American involvement in the conflict and emphasizing their point of why American culture is hated the world around.

Meanwhile (I shit you not) 'Born in the USA' was playing on the radio in the background.

I snickered and continued my job....

[Mister D]

Here's a novel idea.

Stop radicalizing Muslims by stealing their resources and overthrowing their democratic movements.

Trade with them and expose them to American culture.

I must agree with Gerry. That is precisely what they resent so much about us. Far too many Americans perceive American cultural exports as innocent and value free. The Islaimists don't want an Islamic state because the US set up a strong man somewhere and allegedly steals resources. They want an Islamic state (admittedly an overreaction, IMO) because the US is intent on smothering their cultural and religious identity.

[Mister D]

What we did with Saudi Arabia was to help prop up a series a cruel dictators that were friendly towards western oil companies, while helping to establish a Zionist client state in the heart of the Middle East.

And we got 9/11 because the CIA and the FBI failed to share intelligence with each other.



American culture has moderating effect on those who are exposed to it.


http://youtu.be/tg5qdIxVcz8

They're more inclined to perceive it as something more along the lines of a crack dealer soliciting their children.

[Matty]

This assertion sucks on so many levels. I can't imagine you saying the same about American soldiers.
It isn't an assertion. It's a fact.

[Mister D]

Aren't they exporting and undermining your local traditions?

no, we did that. Cosmopolitan Europe is an American creation at least on the ideological level.

[Mister D]

Undermining local traditions, whilst promoting alien Western notions and staples, has been the centerpiece of neoliberal imperialism since its inception. In the Middle East, hostility to such encroachment finds a tragic mouthpiece in purist Islam, pan-Arabism and the like.

True.

I'm supposed to be the "racist" here. I don't know why I need to make this argument.

[Ethereal]

They're more inclined to perceive it as something more along the lines of a crack dealer soliciting their children.

Maybe the old hard-liners for whom the memory of US overt and covert intervention in their country is still fresh in their minds, but for the younger generation, social media and the internet has done a great deal to soften the image of western culture.

[Ethereal]

Nobody's saying that American culture is inherently bad, nor is it damaging in itself. The problem is that an Arab's conception of a good society is likely to be completely contrary to the liberal Western ideal. Even attempts by (formally) autonomous leaders to introduce 'modern' ideas into the Islamic world has been met with popular hostility, not moderation and acceptance. The corporocratic structure of the global order right now renders cultural imperialism an inevitability.

We've got to put aside any notion that exposure to our culture is going to change these people. They can take any ideas from us they will, but the forceful approach we take right now is not only futile, but detrimental to all parties involved.

Again, who is forcing young Muslims to listen to our music, watch our movies, and participate in our social media?

The fact is, nobody is their right mind would choose living under an oppressive theocratic regime over a liberal western democracy, unless their entire perception of liberal western democracies had been stained by decades of militarism and covert action aimed at subverting their popular sovereignty and expropriating their natural resources.

[Ethereal]

Cultural imperialism is easily one of the most effective means of domination the US utilizes. Remember the sentiment 'bombard them with Sears and Roebuck catalogs' from the Cold War? That's a strategy the US continues to use to undermine indigenous resistance to "democracy", human rights, and all that jazz. btw, it's used against us too but that's another topic. Anyway, the US attempts to remake the world in our own image and that is one of the ways in which we attempt to do so. Don't be naive. It's deeply resented.

Obviously they would resent having foreign intelligence operatives running around their country purposely trying to subvert their sovereignty through whatever means possible, though they probably dropped a lot more bombs than Sears catalogues while they doing it, but that is not what I'm advocating at all. I'm simply talking about facilitating free trade and travel between peoples, and allowing the spontaneous and voluntary dissemination of culture to happen organically. They can choose to reject or accept the culture on their own terms. I'm just of the mind that they would be more amenable to accepting it if they didn't automatically associate the west with decades of lies, thievery, sanctions, torture, destruction, and death.

[Ethereal]

I must agree with Gerry. That is precisely what they resent so much about us. Far too many Americans perceive American cultural exports as innocent and value free. The Islaimists don't want an Islamic state because the US set up a strong man somewhere and allegedly steals resources. They want an Islamic state (admittedly an overreaction, IMO) because the US is intent on smothering their cultural and religious identity.

Who is talking about smothering them? Certainly not me. And it would strain credulity to suggest that cultural exchange between the west and Muslims has done more to radicalize them than the decades of lies, thievery, and death that western militaries and intelligence agencies have wrought on the region.

[Private Pickle]

Maybe the old hard-liners for whom the memory of US overt and covert intervention in their country is still fresh in their minds, but for the younger generation, social media and the internet has done a great deal to soften the image of western culture.

Yeah...Obama had nothing to do with that...

[Ethereal]

Yeah...Obama had nothing to do with that...

???

[Private Pickle]

Who is talking about smothering them? Certainly not me. And it would strain credulity to suggest that cultural exchange between the west and Muslims has done more to radicalize them than the decades of lies, thievery, and death that western militaries and intelligence agencies have wrought on the region.

Right! Because as we all know the radical Islamists never lie! I mean its in their religion that they can't lie...Oh...errr....never mind....

[Private Pickle]

???

!!!

[Ethereal]

Right! Because as we all know the radical Islamists never lie! I mean its in their religion that they can't lie...Oh...errr....never mind....

I never said they didn't lie, but I find it hard to believe that a Muslim (or anyone, for that matter) would be more resentful of someone handing them a copy of Avatar than they would be of having a bomb blow up one of their relatives.

[Private Pickle]

I never said they didn't lie, but I find it hard to believe that a Muslim (or anyone, for that matter) would be more resentful of someone handing them a copy of Avatar than they would be of having a bomb blow up one of their relatives.

I agree. And in your world those are the two options they have. In the real world there are shades of grey.

[The Xl]

Cultural imperialism is easily one of the most effective means of domination the US utilizes. Remember the sentiment 'bombard them with Sears and Roebuck catalogs' from the Cold War? That's a strategy the US continues to use to undermine indigenous resistance to "democracy", human rights, and all that jazz. btw, it's used against us too but that's another topic. Anyway, the US attempts to remake the world in our own image and that is one of the ways in which we attempt to do so. Don't be naive. It's deeply resented.

Literally imposing our culture on them is one thing, them picking it up voluntarily is another matter entirely.

[Ethereal]

I agree. And in your world those are the two options they have. In the real world there are shades of grey.

Unless you can cite other options, there is no reason to believe otherwise.

[Mister D]

Literally imposing our culture on them is one thing, them picking it up voluntarily is another matter entirely.

It's about as "voluntary" as the choices Americans make under a constant barrage of advertising.

[The Xl]

It's about as "voluntary" as the choices Americans make under a constant barrage of advertising.

It's still voluntarily, regardless of how tempting.

I believe our radical Muslim, if you can call it that, is via our direct intervention, if the culture aspect is a part, it's a lesser part, imo.

[Mister D]

Who is talking about smothering them? Certainly not me. And it would strain credulity to suggest that cultural exchange between the west and Muslims has done more to radicalize them than the decades of lies, thievery, and death that western militaries and intelligence agencies have wrought on the region.

They are. That there exist people who do not like our superficial culture and all it entails strains the credulity of most Americans. Moreover, there is no "cultural exchange" unless you consider the falafel you had for lunch the Middle Eastern counterpart to rock music, Hollywood etc.

[Codename Section]

It's still voluntarily, regardless of how tempting.

I believe our radical Muslim, if you can call it that, is via our direct intervention, if the culture aspect is a part, it's a lesser part, imo.

Noo, they pretty much hate that we're exporting women in belly shirts like Rihanna to their daughters, homosexuality, gay marriage, abortion, etc these things they hate about us.

[Codename Section]

Who is talking about smothering them? Certainly not me. And it would strain credulity to suggest that cultural exchange between the west and Muslims has done more to radicalize them than the decades of lies, thievery, and death that western militaries and intelligence agencies have wrought on the region.

This is true. They hate us more for this than the cultural stuff, but at the same time the Sunni's do hate our exportation of homosexuality and radical feminism.

Shias in Iran, for all our Axis of Evil crap, are more open because their version of Islam allows for interpretation.

[Mister D]

It's still voluntarily, regardless of how tempting.

I believe our radical Muslim, if you can call it that, is via our direct intervention, if the culture aspect is a part, it's a lesser part, imo.

be that as it may, it's resented. Just letting you know. This is a very American difficulty regardless of ideology. We all seem to think that if they could just get to know the real us all would be well. The real us is well known and much of the world finds us repulsive.

[The Xl]

Noo, they pretty much hate that we're exporting women in belly shirts like Rihanna to their daughters, homosexuality, gay marriage, abortion, etc these things they hate about us.

They can hate that all they want, I hate my neighbors gay ass music and propensity to talk loud in his house, I'm not contemplating taking up arms against him.

The same sentiment applies to them, in my estimation. Our interventionism is a different story.

[Mister D]

This is true. They hate us more for this than the cultural stuff, but at the same time the Sunni's do hate our exportation of homosexuality and radical feminism.

Shias in Iran, for all our Axis of Evil crap, are more open because their version of Islam allows for interpretation.

It fails to explain the overwhelmingly religious/cultural form resistance has taken. IOW, it's off mark.

[Codename Section]

Right! Because as we all know the radical Islamists never lie! I mean its in their religion that they can't lie...Oh...errr....never mind....

Why are you such a shit lately? Sarcasm doesn't replace dialogue, it ends it.

[The Xl]

So, now our culture is the main issue? Not decades of war, interference, supporting Israel, toppling elected leaders, etc.

I don't buy it, sorry.

[The Xl]

Who is talking about smothering them? Certainly not me. And it would strain credulity to suggest that cultural exchange between the west and Muslims has done more to radicalize them than the decades of lies, thievery, and death that western militaries and intelligence agencies have wrought on the region.

This is 100% correct.

[Codename Section]

They can hate that all they want, I hate my neighbors gay ass music and propensity to talk loud in his house, I'm not contemplating taking up arms against him.

The same sentiment applies to them, in my estimation. Our interventionism is a different story.

Not really. You're comparing the Muslims here with those there. Go in Hassan and Eninn's threads and ask them questions.

How you think about things is also very American. Americans are into letting people live and let live. They come from a culture that still stones gays and whips women who were raped.

[Mister D]

So, now our culture is the main issue? Not decades of war, interference, supporting Israel, toppling elected leaders, etc.

I don't buy it, sorry.

no, it's your imperialism which, believe it or not, has taken a cultural form all over the world.

[Codename Section]

So, now our culture is the main issue? Not decades of war, interference, supporting Israel, toppling elected leaders, etc.

I don't buy it, sorry.

No one said (or I didn't) that it's the main issue. They are close, though. Ten years ago it wasn't as bad. But now that we've pumped them up to fall back on religious extremism it is pretty bad. Just like Russia only started getting all sensitive about gays and the west once they felt violated by our economics and culture.

[Private Pickle]

Unless you can cite other options, there is no reason to believe otherwise.

Because its cash we are handing them....not Avatar...and unfortunately for your argument ALL humans are coin operated.

[Ethereal]

They are. That there exist people who do not like our superficial culture and all it entails strains the credulity of most Americans. Moreover, there is no "cultural exchange" unless you consider the falafel you had for lunch the Middle Eastern counterpart to rock music, Hollywood etc.

There are millions of Muslims living in western countries as we speak, and many of them travel and/or communicate between their ancestral homelands. There is a moderate Muslim family who lives right across the street from my parents in the middle of suburbia, for example.

And I've been to Islamic countries, and I've met Muslims who enjoy many aspects of western culture. The younger they are, the more likely they were to be interested in discussing America with me. If you think they would rather live under the extremist government of nutjobs like AQ or ISIS, then you must have had a different experience than me, because they were desperate to rid their community of AQ while I was there. Something about having your head cut off for listening to Jordanian pop music (which, incidentally, always sought to stylistically appropriate western production values and motifs) tends to rub people the wrong way.

[Codename Section]

The Iraqis were under a secular government though. Go to Afghanistan and it was way fucking different.

I liked the Iraqis. :(

[Ethereal]

Because its cash we are handing them....not Avatar...and unfortunately for your argument ALL humans are coin operated.

Well I'm afraid I don't follow you.

[The Xl]

Not really. You're comparing the Muslims here with those there. Go in Hassan and Eninn's threads and ask them questions.

How you think about things is also very American. Americans are into letting people live and let live. They come from a culture that still stones gays and whips women who were raped.

I just don't see the evidence that it's as big an issue as our direct interventionism, or anywhere close.

[The Xl]

no, it's your imperialism which, believe it or not, has taken a cultural form all over the world.

Direct imperialism via force like war and things of that nature are a lot different than a youtube video

[Ethereal]

The Iraqis were under a secular government though. Go to Afghanistan and it was way fucking different.

I liked the Iraqis. :(

Well, that's kind of my point. It's hard to generalize, so the best approach is to let spontaneous, voluntary market processes determine when and where there is a viable opportunity for cultural exchange to take place. Naturally, the more regressive elements within the Islamic world would become isolated through self-segregation, while the more moderate elements would slowly integrate themselves into the global economy.

[The Xl]

That Iraq war was a brilliant idea, eh?

[texan]

By what means, and to accomplish what?


Weapons............extermination. Green this is all in another post herein by me to you and Peter....

You answer some questions:

1. Why do you keep equating this problem (along with at least one other here today) keep equating this with "the war in Iraq?"

2. Why are you opposed to at least considering confronting a group that obviously is posing a serious threat to the us and others? Again you have bipartisan support at home and abroad. You have the Pope for God's sake saying we will have to fight them (never before have we seen this), Muslims saying it (never seen much of this). Do you not think we are capable of fighting this in a smart way without a huge ground war?

You and Peter are full of questions that are the liberal talking point questions. How, what, when what do you want to accomplish. It is like you are not hearing the information available. They don't concern you even a little/ Make this a two way instead of a cliched one way.

[texan]

That Iraq war was a brilliant idea, eh?


Other than this being in Iraq and Syria WTH does this have to do with the "War in Iraq?" Why and how do you equate the two issues??????? Other than by name of course.

[Green Arrow]

Weapons............extermination. Green this is all in another post herein by me to you and Peter....

Where? It's possible I never saw it.


You answer some questions:

1. Why do you keep equating this problem (along with at least one other here today) keep equating this with "the war in Iraq?"

I don't equate it with the war in Iraq, I just acknowledge that this crisis was directly caused by the war in Iraq.


2. Why are you opposed to at least considering confronting a group that obviously is posing a serious threat to the us and others? Again you have bipartisan support at home and abroad. You have the Pope for God's sake saying we will have to fight them (never before have we seen this), Muslims saying it (never seen much of this). Do you not think we are capable of fighting this in a smart way without a huge ground war?

When did I ever say I was opposed to doing anything? I'm not. I just don't believe our government will confront ISIL the right way: with special forces over there and Switzerland-style citizenry here at home. The fact that the first thing our government did was order air strikes shows that they can't choose the smart options.


You and Peter are full of questions that are the liberal talking point questions. How, what, when what do you want to accomplish. It is like you are not hearing the information available. They don't concern you even a little/ Make this a two way instead of a cliched one way.

I think it's sad that you find the most basic element of learning - asking and answering the "Who, what, when, where, how, and why," as sonething "liberal."

[Peter1469]

The Iraqis were under a secular government though. Go to Afghanistan and it was way fucking different.

I liked the Iraqis. :(

The Iraqis wanted to do business!

Go to Morocco. That is a very tolerant Muslim nation.

[Libhater]

I think it's sad that you find the most basic element of learning - asking and answering the "Who, what, when, where, how, and why," as sonething "liberal."

What the Texan, I, and most of America have figured out is that Obama has known about this growing movement of ISIS for over a year now and he hasn't been able to muster the gravitas or the competency to directly tell the American people a strategy to deal with them. This is nothing new for we all know that Obama waits to have someone else do his dirty work for him, or he'll resort to blame the Republicans or Bush in particular for his spineless tenure as potus. So the 'who', 'what', 'when', 'where', 'how', and 'why' has long been established.

So its time for people like you and Peter to belly up to the ISIS plate of reality and join the chorus from of our military brass who are screaming we take action or at least present a strategy to this looming worldwide threat. With the news now that ISIS has already slipped through our porous borders, and have already issued warnings that the homeland bombings will commence in short order, nothing short of a declaration of war and some heady military action must be in order.

[texan]

Green,

Just out of curiosity why is the because of the Iraq war? I can make a pretty good argument it is because of Obama's handling of Iraq. In fact that is closer to the truth than anything. Going back to the Iraq war is all too convienent for the Bush Bashers. BTW Bush had overwhelming support from the democrats in this nation to go into Iraq. It was convienent for them to turn those yes votes into no votes to win an election. Politics isn't always fair, but there are certain truths.

We had a stable Iraq, with a building military and some issues with the PM we left in charge. We didn't have the desire to fix the easy problem of leadership, so we left. Not so smart so please stop with the CYA for Obama. He broke this country by pulling out.

Sorry about the inconvienent truth.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Stereotype FTL.

The only reason to fight ISIS is to protect the resources... Annex the desert bandits' oil, which no more belongs to them than the forests belong to spotted owls. Islam has always been at war with us, so we must bankrupt it. They have no right to freeload off our science. Letting them do that was an insult to the intelligent people who invented oil-drilling technology. From that failure to reward intelligence came price-gouging. From price-gouging came predatory terrorism and the greedy drive for world conquest.

[The Sage of Main Street]

You know that, I know that and anyone with a functioning brain knows that, but the nunk in power is too involved in campaigning and golfing and kibitzing with his jet set loons. He thinks ISIL is wounded and collapsing. He must not be reading his morning paper. We don't want to destroy ISIS if it puts Iran in power. It's best to have Muzzies in Mutually Assured Destruction.

Putin should fulfill his alliance with Assad and totally destroy ISIS in Syria. The other rebels are cowards and won't win, but they might weaken Assad enough that he doesn't expand Iranian power.

[The Sage of Main Street]

I realize it. I'm good with it.

Secure =/= Steal (but thanks for playing) Those Low IQ Neanderthal bandits never should have been allowed to freeload off Western science. The law of territory should be "Use It or Lose It." The whole world benefits if it belongs to whoever can produce the most from these resources. They would have been hidden forever if only the backward and bloodthirsty occupants were allowed to develop it. Seniority has no value. We might as well demand that a washed-up veteran athlete gets to keep his position because he had it first.

[The Sage of Main Street]

Who is talking about smothering them? Certainly not me. And it would strain credulity to suggest that cultural exchange between the west and Muslims has done more to radicalize them than the decades of lies, thievery, and death that western militaries and intelligence agencies have wrought on the region. Toss flowers at them and sing them songs of peace and love, just like you'd do with any wild beast--and pat it on the head as it bites your leg off.

[Codename Section]

Toss flowers at them and sing them songs of peace and love, just like you'd do with any wild beast--and pat it on the head as it bites your leg off.

The average person in Iraq wants peace and are more secular than you think. It's why ISIS is torturing them. For all Saddam's flaws he kept the religious crazies at bay.

[Peter1469]

What the Texan, I, and most of America have figured out is that Obama has known about this growing movement of ISIS for over a year now and he hasn't been able to muster the gravitas or the competency to directly tell the American people a strategy to deal with them. This is nothing new for we all know that Obama waits to have someone else do his dirty work for him, or he'll resort to blame the Republicans or Bush in particular for his spineless tenure as potus. So the 'who', 'what', 'when', 'where', 'how', and 'why' has long been established.

So its time for people like you and Peter to belly up to the ISIS plate of reality and join the chorus from of our military brass who are screaming we take action or at least present a strategy to this looming worldwide threat. With the news now that ISIS has already slipped through our porous borders, and have already issued warnings that the homeland bombings will commence in short order, nothing short of a declaration of war and some heady military action must be in order.

I have been asking all of you intellectually dishonest people to do this all along.

Ends, ways, and means. (Terms of art- don't play games).

Because when McCain says destroy ISIL (ends)- @Libhater (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=305), tell us the ways, and means to achieve that. And I will go really easy on you. Just get in the ball park.

Edit: nukes are off the table.

[Green Arrow]

Green,

Just out of curiosity why is the because of the Iraq war? I can make a pretty good argument it is because of Obama's handling of Iraq. In fact that is closer to the truth than anything. Going back to the Iraq war is all too convienent for the Bush Bashers. BTW Bush had overwhelming support from the democrats in this nation to go into Iraq. It was convienent for them to turn those yes votes into no votes to win an election. Politics isn't always fair, but there are certain truths.

We had a stable Iraq, with a building military and some issues with the PM we left in charge. We didn't have the desire to fix the easy problem of leadership, so we left. Not so smart so please stop with the CYA for Obama. He broke this country by pulling out.

Sorry about the inconvienent truth.

It was caused by the Iraq War because Saddam was the only thing keeping the radicals in check. We created a nation in 1916 that had no business being a nation. We forced three disparate people groups that hated each other to live side by side. Then we got rid of the strongman dictator that kept them from blowing up.

Sorry, but THAT is the inconvenient truth, and it's not all Bush's fault.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

It isn't an assertion. It's a fact.
The Iraqi Army isn't fighting for freedom, but a fat cat oligarchy in the pockets of Iran and big oil. They're not cowards, but victims.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

Literally imposing our culture on them is one thing, them picking it up voluntarily is another matter entirely.
There's precious little voluntary in this world. Most things are the product of tacit coercion.

[Mac-7]

I have been asking all of you intellectually dishonest people to do this all along.

Ends, ways, and means. (Terms of art- don't play games).

Because when McCain says destroy ISIL (ends)- @Libhater (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=305), tell us the ways, and means to achieve that. And I will go really easy on you. Just get in the ball park.

Edit: nukes are off the table.

I thought Obama was being paid to deal with Isis?

you mean we have to do all of the lazy golfer in chiefs thinking for him now?

[Peter1469]

I thought Obama was being paid to deal with Isis?

you mean we have to do all of the lazy golfer in chiefs thinking for him now?

FOUR!

watch out for the ball.

[Mister D]

There's precious little voluntary in this world. Most things are the product of tacit coercion.

I wouldn't use the term coercive but I agree there is little that is actually voluntary. Modern ideologies (i.e. liberalism) entail the disembeddedness of man from his social world but that social world retains its role in reality if not in ideology. While that social world no doubt prescribes the individual's choices in life I wouldn't call that coercion.

[The Sage of Main Street]

The Iraqi Army isn't fighting for freedom, but a fat cat oligarchy in the pockets of Iran and big oil. They're not cowards, but victims. Our GIs are fighting for the same kind of ruling class, but we don't throw down our guns and run, leaving our brothers to get beheaded by the enemy. War gets personal very quickly, but with the Iraqis it gets individualistic. Like most savages, the Iraqis have no concern even for those of their own kind. ISIS has to use bloodthirsty motivation and fantasies of paradise to arouse such people.