PDA

View Full Version : From Here - Where Are We Going?



Vilifier of Zombies
05-01-2012, 01:45 PM
http://seansturm.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/sloterdijk-portrait.jpg?w=630
Right now we have a mixed market economic system type - it doesn't matter if you feel the need to throw in crony - laissez-faire - liberal - techno - social - eco - state - or neo or any other irrelevant varient, the general consensus is that we indeed have a mixed market economic system. That being the standard of where here is, what do you think our next system of economics will be and what'll be the catalyst if any that gets us there?

dadakarma
05-01-2012, 01:52 PM
http://seansturm.files.wordpress.com/2011/12/sloterdijk-portrait.jpg?w=630
Right now we have a mixed market economic system type - it doesn't matter if you feel the need to throw in crony - laissez-faire - liberal - techno - social - eco - state - or neo or any other irrelevant varient, the general consensus is that we indeed have a mixed market economic system. That being the standard of where here is, what do you think our next system of economics will be and what'll be the catalyst if any that gets us there?

Did you read Keyser's 'Welcome to the Asylum' thread? The OP is a fascinating article by Chris Hedges. Hedges suggests we need to return to the "older vision of community" as practiced by the Iroquois.

keyser soze
05-01-2012, 02:03 PM
It seems that even the word 'community' is being demonized by the Bircher thinkers...anything beside their system and certainly anything requiring equitable use and sharing by the 1%. We are rapidly moving back into the robber baron days with complete monopolies but the T-types seem to follow a CATO belief that our problems are all caused by a 'lack' of a free capitalist system...WTF? I find it very difficult and tedious to even discuss with people here. JMO

Vilifier of Zombies
05-01-2012, 02:06 PM
Did you read Keyser's 'Welcome to the Asylum' thread? The OP is a fascinating article by Chris Hedges. Hedges suggests we need to return to the "older vision of community" as practiced by the Iroquois.

In America? I don't think that's even remotely possible.

I haven't paid attention to anything Hedges says or does since Hitchens brought him down a couple of notches awhile back.

dadakarma
05-01-2012, 02:07 PM
In America? I don't think that's even remotely possible.

I haven't paid attention to anything Hedges says or does since Hitchens brought him down a couple of notches awhile back.

Perhaps you should read his 'Welcome to the Asylum' piece, though.

Vilifier of Zombies
05-01-2012, 02:15 PM
Perhaps you should read his 'Welcome to the Asylum' piece, though.

I read what was posted and no I still don't think it's even remotely possible given several of our demographic dynamics it wouldn't even ever be considered as viable, also - aside from casinos and cigarette sales on the internet it hasn't worked out all that well for the Iroquois in the end.

keyser soze
05-01-2012, 02:21 PM
I read what was posted and no I still don't think it's even remotely possible given several of our demographic dynamics it wouldn't even ever be considered as viable, also - aside from casinos and cigarette sales on the internet it hasn't worked out all that well for the Iroquois in the end.
Which would be a whole topic in itself. What now is the question though...in what direction do we continue? I think he's calling for something that has been carefully dismantled in this country and is in process of being smothered by authoritarian responses...ie OWS...

Vilifier of Zombies
05-01-2012, 02:27 PM
It seems that even the word 'community' is being demonized by the Bircher thinkers...anything beside their system and certainly anything requiring equitable use and sharing by the 1%. We are rapidly moving back into the robber baron days with complete monopolies but the T-types seem to follow a CATO belief that our problems are all caused by a 'lack' of a free capitalist system...WTF? I find it very difficult and tedious to even discuss with people here. JMO

The flip side of that same coin are the LaRouche conspiracy quacks - I generally discount either of 'em as irrelevant and other than mockingly making fun of either I wouldn't ever bring 'em up as a topic of the thread.

Do you find that the fringe might somehow be relevant in the near future Verbal?

Vilifier of Zombies
05-01-2012, 02:32 PM
Which would be a whole topic in itself. What now is the question though...in what direction do we continue? I think he's calling for something that has been carefully dismantled in this country and is in process of being smothered by authoritarian responses...ie OWS...

See, that's just it, I think Hedges gave OWS way too much credit and disregards a lot of history in between to make a less than savvy point.

One of the reasons Hitchens was able to bitch slap Hedges so handedly.

keyser soze
05-01-2012, 02:49 PM
The flip side of that same coin are the LaRouche conspiracy quacks - I generally discount either of 'em as irrelevant and other than mockingly making fun of either I wouldn't ever bring 'em up as a topic of the thread.

Do you find that the fringe might somehow be relevant in the near future Verbal?

I find them relevant because they are all over the place posting the insanity and fantasy. Yes...tell a lie often enough and it will be truth as Fox News has demonstrated...they are relevant.

keyser soze
05-01-2012, 02:50 PM
See, that's just it, I think Hedges gave OWS way too much credit and disregards a lot of history in between to make a less than savvy point.

One of the reasons Hitchens was able to bitch slap Hedges so handedly.

Would you expand that please.

Vilifier of Zombies
05-01-2012, 03:59 PM
Would you expand that please.

Hedges made a bunch of "This is the one that'll take 'em all down" claims referring to OWS, which OWS really hasn't panned out to making all that much of a difference when all things are said and done for starters.

Vilifier of Zombies
05-01-2012, 04:03 PM
I find them relevant because they are all over the place posting the insanity and fantasy. Yes...tell a lie often enough and it will be truth as Fox News has demonstrated...they are relevant.

The fringe crazies are always the loudest and most obnoxious, which may lead to higher ratings - but it doesn't mean that either side outside the political spectrum are right with regards to economics, thus I believe so long as they're of a fringe element they're all irrelevant.

keyser soze
05-01-2012, 04:04 PM
Hedges made a bunch of "This is the one that'll take 'em all down" claims referring to OWS, which OWS really hasn't panned out to making all that much of a difference when all things are said and done for starters.

While I like his enthusiasm and support for OWS like you I'll be surprised if they're allowed to make a difference...they will have to fight for it and just as it was a bloody business in the 60's it will be again. I don't think the jury has come back on it yet...it depends on how willing people are to put their toes on the line and pay the toll the authoritarians will exact. They have had influence, that can't be denied...in my view.

Vilifier of Zombies
05-01-2012, 04:10 PM
While I like his enthusiasm and support for OWS like you I'll be surprised if they're allowed to make a difference...they will have to fight for it and just as it was a bloody business in the 60's it will be again. I don't think the jury has come back on it yet...it depends on how willing people are to put their toes on the line and pay the toll the authoritarians will exact. They have had influence, that can't be denied...in my view.

I think that's more than fair although I don't share your opinion - I equate it all to being just a fad, like parachute pants of the mid 80's or American Idol of the early to mid 00's - they're angry so long as it's not cold, rainy, or haven't a way to charge their smartphones and laptops.

keyser soze
05-01-2012, 04:13 PM
I think that's more than fair although I don't share your opinion - I equate it all to being just a fad, like parachute pants of the mid 80's or American Idol of the early to mid 00's - they're angry so long as it's not cold, rainy, or haven't a way to charge their smartphones and laptops.

I disagree...they were ready to occupy all through the cold weather even in Anchorage Alaska...it was the coordinated attacks by the police that stopped it not the protestors. This isn't a fad in my view.

Vilifier of Zombies
05-01-2012, 04:32 PM
I disagree...they were ready to occupy all through the cold weather even in Anchorage Alaska...it was the coordinated attacks by the police that stopped it not the protestors. This isn't a fad in my view.

It's stopped being newsworthy - and the first cold week in NYC last winter and Zuccotti Park was reduced to only a handful of diehard anarchists with a grudge to bear.

keyser soze
05-01-2012, 05:28 PM
The 'grudge' is valid or do you think the system is equitable? A handfull or otherwise, they were prepared to continue...we'll see what comes of it. One thing that has been pointed out is that the 99% Spring is astroturf much like the Tbaggers were...

keyser soze
05-01-2012, 06:43 PM
OWS has also spread out beyond 'occupying' various space...it is growing and deepening. It may not be newsworthy but much in this country and abroad is ignored or spun to suit the authorities.

Vilifier of Zombies
05-01-2012, 07:05 PM
I think you dismiss them too quickly. You weren't following the reasons for them leaving?

I'm sure there's a multitude of reasons for them leaving - specific to each individual.


Granted...in their attempt to make a broad statement, they made no focused statement.

I thought that was silly, they also lacked leadership and the few that did try and speak out had opposing agendas.


As well, they were a year early. Lest we forget though, it was a tiny movement, that grew out of the police brutality issue.

I think they would've been drowned out by all the hoopla of the election season.


Right now, they have a real chance to be acknowledged, even though the campaign promises aimed at them will all be forgotten in January.

Kinda but not really - there were definitely a few quacks that the spotlight would've been put them instead of those that might've actually had something viable to say.


But....the youth vote can make/break this election, and THAT'S what they have going for themselves now.

Demographically speaking, there are still more middle-aged and senior moderate voters that should be the focus of this election - I'm not discounting the youth vote I just don't think it's as important compared to the moderate swing votes.