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Codename Section
09-03-2014, 03:30 PM
And it turns out he had an unloaded gun


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/28/cops-kill-woman-maria-godinez_n_5732032.html?cps=gravity

The facts:


Police responded to Vixen Bar in Orlando, Florida, on Aug. 19 after a 911 caller told them a "gun wielding maniac" was in the establishment, the Orlando Sentinel reports (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-kody-roach-murder-charge-vixen-20140826,0,4849648.story).

Kody Roach, 23, ignored officers' commands to get on the ground, according to a police report obtained by the Sentinel.

The weirdness:


Roach then allegedly reached into his waistband, promoting police to fire, according to the report."In order to prevent an armed individual from causing harm to any members of the public or to any of the surrounding officers, Ofc. Sanguino discharges his firearm nine times striking Roach at least five times," the report said.
Police said Roach had an unloaded handgun when he was fired upon. He was taken to a hospital and survived his injuries.
Amid the exchange of gunfire, one of the bullets fired by Orlando police officer Eduardo Sanguino hit and killed 22-year-old Fernanda Godinez, WESH reports (http://www.wesh.com/news/suspect-in-deadlyofficer-involved-shooting-at-vixen-bar-charged-with-murder/27732544#!bLO9Kp).
Sanguino has been placed on paid leave pending an investigation of the shooting.
Now, police say Roach is responsible for Godinez's death, and they've charged him with first-degree felony murder.
"As a result of Roach's criminal actions, Ofc. Sanguino had no choice but to use deadly force in stopping the threat posed to the public and fellow officers by Roach. As a result of Roach's actions, an individual was killed, therefore probable cause exist to further charge Roach with first degree felony murder," his arrest affidavit states, according to WESH.


So, he actually wasn't really waving a deadly weapon around, but he did resist arrest, so they unloaded on him in a busy club instead of getting everyone out first and trying to gauge the situation. But whatevs, just cops...cops are allowed to shoot even if it endangers others because they're cops and cops can do no wrong, but...


Now he's being charged with First Degree Murder???????????
Alyosha Peter1469

how does this happen?

Peter1469
09-03-2014, 03:35 PM
I will have to read this and maybe do some research.

Peter1469
09-03-2014, 03:38 PM
I suspect it is a felony murder statute.

Chris
09-03-2014, 03:41 PM
Sounds like pass the buck. The policeman made an error.

Redrose
09-03-2014, 03:45 PM
[QUOTE=Codename Section;750186]And it turns out he had an unloaded gun


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/28/cops-kill-woman-maria-godinez_n_5732032.html?cps=gravity

The facts:



The weirdness:




So, he actually wasn't really waving a deadly weapon around, but he did resist arrest, so they unloaded on him in a busy club instead of getting everyone out first and trying to gauge the situation. But whatevs, just cops...cops are allowed to shoot even if it endangers others because they're cops and cops can do no wrong, but...


Now he's being charged with First Degree Murder???????????
@Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863) @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10)

how does this happen?[/QUOTE

***********************************

Redrose
That is the correct charge. It's called felony murder. It may sound strange to those who don't understand our legal system.

The man with the gun, unloaded or not, is guilty of felony murder. Felony murder is charged when a death results during the commission of a crime. The fact the gun was unloaded is a non issue, the statute covers that, the police have no ability or responsibility to assume it's unloaded.

The man with the gun was committing a felony by pointing the gun at the officer. The officer had no intent to kill the victim. His actions were in direct response to the felony actions of the man with the gun.

That is felony murder. Another example is if you hold up a bank or convenience store, even unarmed, and the clerk dies of a heart attack, you will be charged with felony murder.....your actions caused the death. I worked in the Florida court system, this may be different in other states.

Matty
09-03-2014, 03:48 PM
It is illegal in the state of Florida to carry a gun into a bar. Second mistake was drawing said gun.

Codename Section
09-03-2014, 03:55 PM
[QUOTE=Codename Section;750186]And it turns out he had an unloaded gun


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/28/cops-kill-woman-maria-godinez_n_5732032.html?cps=gravity

The facts:



The weirdness:




So, he actually wasn't really waving a deadly weapon around, but he did resist arrest, so they unloaded on him in a busy club instead of getting everyone out first and trying to gauge the situation. But whatevs, just cops...cops are allowed to shoot even if it endangers others because they're cops and cops can do no wrong, but...


Now he's being charged with First Degree Murder???????????
@Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863) @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10)

how does this happen?[/QUOTE

That is the correct charge. It's called felony murder. It may sound strange to those who don't understand our legal system.

The man with the gun, unloaded or not, is guilty of felony murder. Felony murder is charged when a death results during the commission of a crime. The fact the gun was unloaded is a non issue, the statute covers that, the police have no ability or responsibility to assume it's unloaded.

The man with the gun was committing a felony by pointing the gun at the officer. The officer had no intent to kill the victim. His actions were in direct response to the felony actions of the man with the gun.

That is felony murder. Another example is if you hold up a bank or convenience store, even unarmed, and the clerk dies of a heart attack, you will be charged with felony murder.....your actions caused the death. I worked in the Florida court system, this may be different in other states.

He actually didn't point the gun. It was in his pants according to the officers... and unloaded.

Alyosha

for it to stick doesn't there have to be proof of an original crime?

Codename Section
09-03-2014, 03:55 PM
It is illegal in the state of Florida to carry a gun into a bar. Second mistake was drawing said gun.

Ah so your CCW laws don't permit it? That's the issue then.

Matty
09-03-2014, 03:58 PM
Ah so your CCW laws don't permit it? That's the issue then.
That and the dude reaching for it, not to mention he didn't get on the ground. You think it's a good idea to mix drunks and guns in a bar?

Codename Section
09-03-2014, 03:59 PM
That and the dude reaching for it, not to mention he didn't get on the ground. You think it's a good idea to mix drunks and guns in a bar?

Maybe he was reaching for it. ((shrugs)) who reaches for an empty gun when surrounded by cops? Only someone suicidal.

PolWatch
09-03-2014, 03:59 PM
just think, if he was in Georgia, it would have been legal to carry a loaded gun in a bar....yeap, the world needs more armed drunks....

Peter1469
09-03-2014, 04:12 PM
[QUOTE=Redrose;750197]

He actually didn't point the gun. It was in his pants according to the officers... and unloaded.

@Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863)

for it to stick doesn't there have to be proof of an original crime?


He has only be charged. The court case hasn't started. The article isn't clear enough on what felony the defendant might have been committing at the time of the shooting.

You typically see it when there is a group of nogoodnicks working together to commit a murder. Say 3 men trying to rob a bank. The two inside the bank kill someone and get caught (or even the police kill a civilian taking down the bank robbers). But the get away driver gets caught too. He can be charged with murder in a jurisdiction with a felony murder rule.

The idea is if you agree to commit a felony you reasonably foresee that someone will get murdered.

Here is the Florida murder statute (http://www.leg.state.fl.us/Statutes/index.cfm?App_mode=Display_Statute&URL=0700-0799/0782/Sections/0782.04.html).

Cigar
09-03-2014, 04:20 PM
Professionals don't make those mistakes.

Amateurs and a trigger happy cowards shoot out of fear and not experience, accuracy and professionalism.

Being a Professional Law Enforcement Officer isn't as easy as being a Municipal Cop.

Redrose
09-03-2014, 04:24 PM
Professionals don't make those mistakes.

Amateurs and a trigger happy cowards shoot out of fear and not experience, accuracy and professionalism.

Being a Professional Law Enforcement Officer isn't as easy as being a Municipal Cop.

Don't be so rediculous. If someone you know is carrying a gun and he makes the aggressive move by reaching in his waistband, and you stand there with your thumb up your ass, you deserve to be shot.

Redrose
09-03-2014, 04:26 PM
Posted by Redrose


He actually didn't point the gun. It was in his pants according to the officers... and unloaded.

@Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863)


for it to stick doesn't there have to be proof of an original crime?



I didn't post that comment. That was posted by Codename..

Peter1469
09-03-2014, 04:26 PM
Might have been an attempt of suicide by cop.

Cigar
09-03-2014, 04:31 PM
Don't be so rediculous. If someone you know is carrying a gun and he makes the aggressive move by reaching in his waistband, and you stand there with your thumb up your ass, you deserve to be shot.


Apparently Lost in translation:

Didn't someone who didn't reach agressively in their waistband die that day?

Or did I misread the story :huh:

Redrose
09-03-2014, 04:50 PM
Apparently Lost in translation:

Didn't someone who didn't reach agressively in their waistband die that day?

Or did I misread the story :huh:


"Roach then allegedly reached into his waistband, promoting police to fire, according to the report".

Taken from the article in post #1

That action by Roach is a felony.....the resulting death of the innocent person is a "felony murder".

Roach committed a felony resulting in a death. He is correctly charged with felony murder, which is First Degree Murder, but NOT Capital Murder, which can carry the death penalty.

del
09-03-2014, 04:52 PM
cops never do anything wrong

everyone knows this

Cigar
09-03-2014, 04:54 PM
"Roach then allegedly reached into his waistband, promoting police to fire, according to the report".

Taken from the article in post #1

That action by Roach is a felony.....the resulting death of the innocent person is a "felony murder".

Roach committed a felony resulting in a death. He is correctly charged with felony murder, which is First Degree Murder, but NOT Capital Murder, which can carry the death penalty.


Then I stand by my original comment :wink:

Redrose
09-03-2014, 04:56 PM
cops never do anything wrong

everyone knows this


Get some new material.

Redrose
09-03-2014, 05:00 PM
Then I stand by my original comment :wink:

Cigar you pride yourself on being an intelligent man, and from your posts I would agree, so what part of "Felony Murder" don't you grasp?

The cop wasn't committing a crime, Roach was, according to the statute, the death falls on Roach. It's very simple.

donttread
09-03-2014, 05:01 PM
And it turns out he had an unloaded gun


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/28/cops-kill-woman-maria-godinez_n_5732032.html?cps=gravity

The facts:



The weirdness:




So, he actually wasn't really waving a deadly weapon around, but he did resist arrest, so they unloaded on him in a busy club instead of getting everyone out first and trying to gauge the situation. But whatevs, just cops...cops are allowed to shoot even if it endangers others because they're cops and cops can do no wrong, but...


Now he's being charged with First Degree Murder???????????
@Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863) @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10)

how does this happen?

I've seen similar scenarios on TV but I never thought it was real life. Holy shit

Alyosha
09-03-2014, 05:01 PM
All I have is this to go by

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-maria-godinez-castillo-vixen-shooting-20140820,0,6933988.story

http://www.inquisitr.com/1435172/police-shooting-orlando-maria-godinez/

Huffpo got it wrong, it seems. From what I'm reading this is all kind of shady. It happened outside the bar on the street, but while he allegedly had it on him at the bar he dropped it according to the video footage before the police arrived. There are allegations that the police didn't actually see him with a gun, nor could confirm he had one on him at the time.


There is also some question as to whether Kody Roach, 23, was in possession of a gun when police officer Eduard Sanguino opened fire on him with nine shots at about 12:45 am (http://www.clickorlando.com/news/man-faces-murder-charge-in-fatal-orlando-police-shooting-at-downtown-nightclub/27732002). At least five of those bullets hit Roach, who was later hospitalized in critical conditon. One of the shots ricocheted and struck Sanguino’s fellow officers, Lt. Frank Nunez, in the leg.


But another bullet went astray and hit Godinez, who was inside the bar enjoying a night out (http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-maria-godinez-castillo-vixen-shooting-20140820,0,6933988.story) with friends, in the shoulder. The young woman, who grew up in Cocoa, Florida, after emigrating from Guatelmala as a small child, collapsed and later died at a nearby hospital.

But on Tuesday, police charged Roach, who is still in the hospital, with first degree murder in the death of Maria Godinez, saying that he initiated the confrontation that led to her accidental killing.


On August 19, Orlando police received an emergency call from someone working at the Vixen Bar in downtown Orlando, reporting a “gun wielding maniac,” who was thrown out of the bar after brandishing his firearm inside.


But according to WMKG Channel 6 News, surveillance video from the bar shows Roach dropping his gun after being ejected from the bar. The news report did not say whether the bar video showed Roach picking the gun up again.


Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1435172/police-shooting-orlando-maria-godinez/#ECKBfwdxTdXa2zH5.99


His attorney will get him off. The girl was not killed in the act of committing a crime, there is no intention to commit a murder (Murder in the First requires intention), and they're using the charges wrong. If he was with a group committing a crime and an accidental death occurred due to the crime, they can be charged.

If the DA gets away with this foolishness it will be thrown out in appeal because the intention of the law (which the appeals court will look at) is not for this.

Once more Florida does its idiot thing where they overcharge someone with murder when no jury in the world will convict.

del
09-03-2014, 05:06 PM
Get some new material.

you first

Matty
09-03-2014, 05:06 PM
Get some new material.
According to this group they never do anything right!

Alyosha
09-03-2014, 05:11 PM
According to this group they never do anything right!

that's funny. My sheriff is right a lot. He was right when he came to my parents house over a potential break in and stayed to talk to them and didn't write them up for forgetting the dog license and let them get it another day.

My sheriff doesn't want to turn the town into a military zone.

My sheriff checks on my place when I'm not there.

I've said it many times that I have even sent pizza over to them. Good people deserve praise and assholes don't.

The cop was not wrong for shooting IF he held up a weapon. If he didn't have one and it had dropped, they were wrong.

There's no anticop conspiracy.

Chris
09-03-2014, 05:15 PM
All I have is this to go by

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-maria-godinez-castillo-vixen-shooting-20140820,0,6933988.story

http://www.inquisitr.com/1435172/police-shooting-orlando-maria-godinez/

Huffpo got it wrong, it seems. From what I'm reading this is all kind of shady. It happened outside the bar on the street, but while he allegedly had it on him at the bar he dropped it according to the video footage before the police arrived. There are allegations that the police didn't actually see him with a gun, nor could confirm he had one on him at the time.




Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1435172/police-shooting-orlando-maria-godinez/#ECKBfwdxTdXa2zH5.99


His attorney will get him off. The girl was not killed in the act of committing a crime, there is no intention to commit a murder (Murder in the First requires intention), and they're using the charges wrong. If he was with a group committing a crime and an accidental death occurred due to the crime, they can be charged.

If the DA gets away with this foolishness it will be thrown out in appeal because the intention of the law (which the appeals court will look at) is not for this.

Once more Florida does its idiot thing where they overcharge someone with murder when no jury in the world will convict.

Alyosha, get analysis of facts available.

Now, given that, can the cop be sued? He likely won't be charged, but could he be sued in civil court?

Alyosha
09-03-2014, 05:21 PM
@Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863), get analysis of facts available.

Now, given that, can the cop be sued? He likely won't be charged, but could he be sued in civil court?

The bullet ricocheted so, no, he can but they won't win and shouldn't. This was an accidental death. Neither the cop nor the guy who is accused of murder wanted her dead.

Justice and what's going on here are two different things.

Cigar
09-03-2014, 05:33 PM
@Cigar (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=294) you pride yourself on being an intelligent man, and from your posts I would agree, so what part of "Felony Murder" don't you grasp?

The cop wasn't committing a crime, Roach was, according to the statute, the death falls on Roach. It's very simple.

My post has nothing to do with "Felony Murder", it was about professionals, expertise and accuracy.

I grew up with law enforcement and still have members in law enforcement, these stories have never happen.

So my experience is different

Redrose
09-03-2014, 05:34 PM
[QUOTE=Alyosha;750277]All I have is this to go by

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/breaking-news/os-maria-godinez-castillo-vixen-shooting-20140820,0,6933988.story

http://www.inquisitr.com/1435172/police-shooting-orlando-maria-godinez/

Huffpo got it wrong, it seems. From what I'm reading this is all kind of shady. It happened outside the bar on the street, but while he allegedly had it on him at the bar he dropped it according to the video footage before the police arrived. There are allegations that the police didn't actually see him with a gun, nor could confirm he had one on him at the time.




Read more at http://www.inquisitr.com/1435172/police-shooting-orlando-maria-godinez/#ECKBfwdxTdXa2zH5.99


His attorney will get him off. The girl was not killed in the act of committing a crime, there is no intention to commit a murder (Murder in the First requires intention), and they're using the charges wrong. If he was with a group committing a crime and an accidental death occurred due to the crime, they can be charged.

If the DA gets away with this foolishness it will be thrown out in appeal because the intention of the law (which the appeals court will look at) is not for this.

Once more Florida does its idiot thing where they overcharge someone with murder when no jury in the world will convict.[/QUOTE


****************************
There is intent in the underlying felony...the weapons charge. The murder is a result of that act. We had exactly the same situation in court and he was convicted. The sentence was a moderate one based on his PSI so he only got 15 years.


If you rob a bank and a customer dies of a heart attack, you get get charged with Felony Murder. You may not have intended to kill anyone, but that makes no difference.

If you drink and get drunk and drive and kill someone, there was no intent to kill anyone, but there was intent to drink to excess and then drive, the vehicular homicide charge sticks.

Now, if the State allows lessers to be included on the verdict form, the jury may find guilt on a lesser included charge. But that is up to the State.

Matty
09-03-2014, 05:35 PM
Armchair quarterbacks make the very best policeman. They never have to decide, or get hurt. Tough job it you can get it.

Cigar
09-03-2014, 05:36 PM
Armchair quarterbacks make the very best policeman. They never have to decide, or get hurt. Tough job it you can get it.


That's why it's better to know those who have the facts. :wink:

Redrose
09-03-2014, 05:46 PM
One is loaded, one isn't. If either one is about to be pointed at you, what do you do?

countryboy
09-03-2014, 05:47 PM
And it turns out he had an unloaded gun


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/28/cops-kill-woman-maria-godinez_n_5732032.html?cps=gravity

The facts:



The weirdness:




So, he actually wasn't really waving a deadly weapon around, but he did resist arrest, so they unloaded on him in a busy club instead of getting everyone out first and trying to gauge the situation. But whatevs, just cops...cops are allowed to shoot even if it endangers others because they're cops and cops can do no wrong, but...


Now he's being charged with First Degree Murder???????????
@Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863) @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10)

how does this happen?
Were either of the deceased black? If not, why should we care?

Dr. Who
09-03-2014, 05:48 PM
"Roach then allegedly reached into his waistband, promoting police to fire, according to the report".

Taken from the article in post #1

That action by Roach is a felony.....the resulting death of the innocent person is a "felony murder".

Roach committed a felony resulting in a death. He is correctly charged with felony murder, which is First Degree Murder, but NOT Capital Murder, which can carry the death penalty.
What is Florida law about cops discharging weapons in a crowded club? If nothing else, the family of the deceased will have a great civil case for negligent homicide. It may even warrant punitive damages and even treble damages given how negligent the police behavior was.

Chris
09-03-2014, 05:50 PM
Armchair quarterbacks make the very best policeman. They never have to decide, or get hurt. Tough job it you can get it.

But we're all armchairing it here.

countryboy
09-03-2014, 05:51 PM
just think, if he was in Georgia, it would have been legal to carry a loaded gun in a bar....yeap, the world needs more armed drunks....
I seriously doubt it's legal to carry drunk in a bar in Georgia. In Ohio it is legal to carry in a bar, but not under the influence. Guess what, it hasn't been a problem.

countryboy
09-03-2014, 05:54 PM
One is loaded, one isn't. If either one is about to be pointed at you, what do you do?
Politely ask if it is loaded? Do I win a prize?

Cigar
09-03-2014, 06:08 PM
Obviously it was crowded in that Bar with all those Forum members inside :laugh:

Redrose
09-03-2014, 06:14 PM
What is Florida law about cops discharging weapons in a crowded club? If nothing else, the family of the deceased will have a great civil case for negligent homicide. It may even warrant punitive damages and even treble damages given how negligent the police behavior was.


You are correct about that, but in the case with the officer, he was called to the situation, the fact the bar was crowded doesn't prevent the officer from using deadly force when confronted with a person with a gun. He had to stop the threat.

All other defense options are off the table at that point, deadly force warranted a deadly force response. In self defense there is some liability with respect to where your bullets go, but not criminally, maybe civilly. Each situation is different and would be examined. The cop or any person for that matter has the right to defend themselves.

The patrons in the bar should have gotten as far away from the situation or hit the floor immediately. Don't stand around and oogle, you may get hurt....or killed.

del
09-03-2014, 06:16 PM
yes, it's never bad judgement by a cop; it's the failure of civilians to move fast enough to accommodate them.

Redrose
09-03-2014, 06:20 PM
Yes.

Only rubberneckers, and trouble makers stand around a developing dangerous situation.

del
09-03-2014, 06:22 PM
Yes.

Only rubberneckers, and trouble makers stand around a developing dangerous situation.



yeah, it's always the civilians' fault.

it would make the cops jobs much easier if we all just did what we were told, wouldn't it?

Redrose
09-03-2014, 06:23 PM
Politely ask if it is loaded? Do I win a prize?


To quote Dirty Harry, "do you feel lucky?" Lol

Peter1469
09-03-2014, 06:23 PM
yeah, it's always the civilians' fault.

it would make the cops jobs much easier if we all just did what we were told, wouldn't it? Comply is the word you were looking for, I think....

del
09-03-2014, 06:24 PM
Comply is the word you were looking for, I think....

i know what words i intended to use, thank you, and i used them.

Cigar
09-03-2014, 06:25 PM
Comply is the word you were looking for, I think....


Kinda like hands up, don't shoot? :grin:

Codename Section
09-03-2014, 06:36 PM
You are correct about that, but in the case with the officer, he was called to the situation, the fact the bar was crowded doesn't prevent the officer from using deadly force when confronted with a person with a gun. He had to stop the threat.

All other defense options are off the table at that point, deadly force warranted a deadly force response. In self defense there is some liability with respect to where your bullets go, but not criminally, maybe civilly. Each situation is different and would be examined. The cop or any person for that matter has the right to defend themselves.

The patrons in the bar should have gotten as far away from the situation or hit the floor immediately. Don't stand around and oogle, you may get hurt....or killed.


According to the last article I read the gun was dropped and the cops never actually saw it. There's video. Plus the cops were shooting him outside, but the bullets went inside and killed her.

Redrose
09-03-2014, 06:38 PM
yeah, it's always the civilians' fault.

it would make the cops jobs much easier if we all just did what we were told, wouldn't it?


Yes.

I am a senior White woman, thin, small frame, not very threatening to anyone I'm sure.

My neighbor called my cell phone because she was away and her house alarm was going off. There were two patrol cars outside her house, she asked me to take my cell phone out to them so she could talk to them.

It was dusk, I "trot" towards the patrol cars with a cell phone in my hand, I got within 50 feet of them and the speaker told me loudly to stop and put the object in my hand on the ground. I stopped immediately, and put the cell phone on the ground. The officer got out approached me with his hand on his holstered gun, told me to back away and he picked up the cell phone. He looked at it, and gave it back to me. I then explained the neighbor was on the phone to talk to him.

Had I been a jerk and decided to balk at his orders, it could have turned out very badly.

I was annoyed at myself, because I know it's dumb to run towards a cop with a dark object in your hand.

Codename Section
09-03-2014, 06:38 PM
One is loaded, one isn't. If either one is about to be pointed at you, what do you do?

Apparently neither because no one saw the gun. They said they believed he was reaching for it, turns out the video shows he dropped it before they arrived on the scene.

Redrose
09-03-2014, 06:42 PM
Kinda like hands up, don't shoot? :grin:


That was hear say, not fact.

Cigar
09-03-2014, 06:44 PM
That was hear say, not fact.


One person maybe hearsay ... but several is denial :tongue:

Cigar
09-03-2014, 06:45 PM
Apparently neither because no one saw the gun. They said they believed he was reaching for it, turns out the video shows he dropped it before they arrived on the scene.

Oops :tongue:

Dr. Who
09-03-2014, 06:56 PM
You are correct about that, but in the case with the officer, he was called to the situation, the fact the bar was crowded doesn't prevent the officer from using deadly force when confronted with a person with a gun. He had to stop the threat.

All other defense options are off the table at that point, deadly force warranted a deadly force response. In self defense there is some liability with respect to where your bullets go, but not criminally, maybe civilly. Each situation is different and would be examined. The cop or any person for that matter has the right to defend themselves.

The patrons in the bar should have gotten as far away from the situation or hit the floor immediately. Don't stand around and oogle, you may get hurt....or killed.
I would think that proper police protocol would be to ensure that no one is in the line of fire. If this in fact occurred outside of the bar, the bar still should have been evacuated, since bullets can travel through windows and some walls. Civilly, the police would be tried based on their own protocols, although if they lack any protocol for this particular type of scenario (doubtful), they would still be subject to the test of reasonable and prudent behavior and their duty of care to the public. Police have been scaling back high speed chases since they've been getting nailed civilly for causing death and injury to civilians on the road in their zeal to catch car thieves and the like. In this instance, there had been no discharge of a firearm, so there was no immediate need to risk bystander lives needlessly. One officer could have evacuated the club out the back door. If it occurred within the bar, even more reason to evacuate the bar. Either way I see potential negligence attaching to the police department. Since it's Florida there is no joint and several liability, but depending on whether or if the gun wielding patron is found to be mentally ill or suffering some sort of mental disorder, may not be named in a law suit. Clearly the deceased would have zero liability.

Redrose
09-03-2014, 06:58 PM
One person maybe hearsay ... but several is denial :tongue:

There is a neighbor who captured the AUDIO of the incident on a cell phone. The audio indicates the officer's voice yelling, nothing from Brown, then the volley of shots.

You know as well as I do, in certain communities, the police are the enemy. "Mob" mentality takes over. One person defending Brown, refusing to believe he may be guilty of a crime, tells the story to benefit Brown. Then the "mob" mentality accepts that tale as fact and they all swear to it. I've seen it in court more times than I can count.

Forensics will reveal the truth.

Polecat
09-03-2014, 08:09 PM
Honestly, we need to all be well trained and armed at all times. Then we can put the frightened police officers to better use emptying trash cans or something else useful instead of treating us all like Jews trying to sneak out of Nazi Germany.

Alyosha
09-03-2014, 09:09 PM
There is a neighbor who captured the AUDIO of the incident on a cell phone. The audio indicates the officer's voice yelling, nothing from Brown, then the volley of shots.

You know as well as I do, in certain communities, the police are the enemy. "Mob" mentality takes over. One person defending Brown, refusing to believe he may be guilty of a crime, tells the story to benefit Brown. Then the "mob" mentality accepts that tale as fact and they all swear to it. I've seen it in court more times than I can count.

Forensics will reveal the truth.


Its a vicious cycle. They don't trust cops, cops think they're all up to something. Someone has to be the better person.

Redrose
09-03-2014, 09:20 PM
Its a vicious cycle. They don't trust cops, cops think they're all up to something. Someone has to be the better person.
Alyosha

You see this stuff first hand, I saw it first hand, a few hundred felony trials. How do we get a better community understanding? We had a wonderful Deputy, a young Black man from the subs...the ghetto. He broke out of that, got a degree and made a great officer. He worked the subs and they still turned on him saying he was a "sell out". He's a lieutenant today, not in the street too often, but they still give him grief.