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View Full Version : What Country Has It BetterThan the United States and Why?



Conley
05-04-2012, 06:59 PM
Chris got me thinking...what country do you think has it better? I'll start off...a couple of places I've visited and have thought about living. Spain has 20% unemployment on the books, the reality is probably worse. The UK puts people in jail for tweeting offensive things about soccer players. So let's hear where things are better and why.

Peter1469
05-04-2012, 07:21 PM
You question depends upon your means. If you are wealthy many countries would likely be better for you.

Chris
05-04-2012, 07:24 PM
These days Canada is doing better economically, but heck, they have a conservative government now under Harper and sounder freer economic policies, but I wouldn't want their socialized healthcare. A visit would be all I'd ever want. I'm pretty happy here as long as I don't think about government.

Mister D
05-04-2012, 07:26 PM
You question depends upon your means. If you are wealthy many countries would likely be better for you.

Very true. A lot of places, perhaps even most, would be cool if you had few financial concerns.

Mainecoons
05-04-2012, 07:45 PM
Let's make Texas a country again. It will be the best one then!

:grin:

Conley
05-04-2012, 07:51 PM
Let's make Texas a country again. It will be the best one then!

:grin:

Says the guy who's in Mexico! :grin:

Conley
05-04-2012, 07:56 PM
You question depends upon your means. If you are wealthy many countries would likely be better for you.

If we limit the question to economics I was considering the opposite...if you're poor many other countries have better social services. If you're wealthy, most others have much higher taxes. I suppose it depends how poor or rich we're talking. For someone middle class and hoping to move up there are probably a few options but the US has to rank highly.

Captain Obvious
05-04-2012, 09:01 PM
Viva la cooba

Chris
05-04-2012, 09:42 PM
Let's make Texas a country again. It will be the best one then!

:grin:


Says the guy who's in Mexico! :grin:

But we could take Mexico. It's economy is doing better now, they come up to San Antonio to buy houses and shop. Just get rid of the drug cartels by stopping the Obama Administration from selling them guns.


(Whoa! Just learned how to double quote!)

MMC
05-04-2012, 09:44 PM
WR still swears by Costa Rica.

RollingWave
05-04-2012, 09:52 PM
Chris got me thinking...what country do you think has it better? I'll start off...a couple of places I've visited and have thought about living. Spain has 20% unemployment on the books, the reality is probably worse. The UK puts people in jail for tweeting offensive things about soccer players. So let's hear where things are better and why.

Wait they put ppl in jail for tweeting offfensive things about soccer player but not you know... burning cars in soccer riots ? :grin:

Conley
05-04-2012, 09:54 PM
Wait they put ppl in jail for tweeting offfensive things about soccer player but not you know... burning cars in soccer riots ? :grin:

:grin: Yes, cars can be replaced but feelings are priceless.

MMC
05-04-2012, 09:57 PM
:grin: Yes, cars can be replaced but feelings are priceless.


Been talking with a bunch of progressives.....have we, hmmmm? :wink:

Conley
05-04-2012, 10:01 PM
Been talking with a bunch of progressives.....have we, hmmmm? :wink:

What's wrong with progress? :wink:

MMC
05-04-2012, 10:14 PM
What's wrong with progress? :wink:


Well for one.....the Opposite, is Congress! :laugh: :kiss:

RollingWave
05-06-2012, 10:14 AM
Well, Taiwan have some ways that are better off than the US... like...

A. Unemployement is falling below 5%.... and have never topped more than 6% in the last... umm... since anyone actually tracked the damn thing.

B. Instead of going broke, our post office is drowning in cash because it double as a bank.

C. We have abosalutely 0 foreign debt

D. Public debt isn't particularly high, espeically by the measure that all of it is domesticated (which if Japan is any guide, the tolerance level for pure domestic debt is much higher... )

E. A Public health system that most people are happy with.


Of course, the common median wage of a late 20s early 30s salary earner is only something like 1000 bucks here. and hasn't really moved (forward that is... most folks feel like it's moving backwards) since 10 years ago. though the exchange rate rising is a factor..

There's no paradise on earth that's for sure (though most of us can take solace in that... there is hell on earth, and we're not living in them.)

wingrider
05-06-2012, 10:40 AM
yeah.. go Costa rica..

MMC
05-06-2012, 11:04 AM
http://www.state.gov/img/09/34765/taiwan_map_2009worldfactbook_300_1.jpg

Hmmmmm looks like that place is surrounded by an ocean. Good thing you got like 100 peaks all over 3000ft. How far from the mainland? Oh and of course there is China.....eh RW? What did ya say the temperature is there. At night? Is there any winter weather? Typhoons and Monsoons.....huh?

Geography
Area: 36,189 sq. km. (13,973 sq. mi.).
Cities (December 2011): Capital--Taipei (2.65 million). Other cities--New Taipei City (3.91 million), Kaohsiung (2.77 million), Taichung (2.66 million), Tainan (1.88 million).
Terrain: Two-thirds of the island is largely mountainous with 100 peaks over 3,000 meters (9,843 ft.).
Climate: Maritime subtropical.


Economic Outlook

Taiwan faces many of the same economic issues as other developed economies. As labor-intensive industries have relocated to countries with low-cost labor, Taiwan's future development will rely on further transformation to a high technology and service-oriented economy and carving out its niche in the global supply chain. Taiwan's economy has become increasingly linked with China, and the Ma administration is expected to further develop these links and liberalize cross-Strait economic relations, particularly through negotiations under the Economic Cooperation Framework Agreement (ECFA). Taiwan official statistics indicate that Taiwan firms had invested about U.S. $110.9 billion in China as of the end of November 2011, which is more than 60% of Taiwan's stock of direct foreign investment. Unofficial estimates put the actual number at between U.S. $150 and over $300 billion. Exact figures are difficult to obtain, as much Taiwan investment in the P.R.C. is via Hong Kong and other third-party jurisdictions. More than one million Taiwan people are estimated to be residing in China, and more than 70,000 Taiwan companies have operations there. Taiwan firms are increasingly acting as management centers that take in orders, produce them in Taiwan, the mainland, or Southeast Asia, and then ship the final products to the U.S. and other markets.


Nice place to visit. :wink:

Peter1469
05-06-2012, 12:44 PM
Well, Taiwan have some ways that are better off than the US... like...

A. Unemployement is falling below 5%.... and have never topped more than 6% in the last... umm... since anyone actually tracked the damn thing.

B. Instead of going broke, our post office is drowning in cash because it double as a bank.

C. We have abosalutely 0 foreign debt

D. Public debt isn't particularly high, espeically by the measure that all of it is domesticated (which if Japan is any guide, the tolerance level for pure domestic debt is much higher... )

E. A Public health system that most people are happy with.


Of course, the common median wage of a late 20s early 30s salary earner is only something like 1000 bucks here. and hasn't really moved (forward that is... most folks feel like it's moving backwards) since 10 years ago. though the exchange rate rising is a factor..

There's no paradise on earth that's for sure (though most of us can take solace in that... there is hell on earth, and we're not living in them.)

How much would your defense budget increase if the US lifted its shield of protection? How would that affect your economy?

RollingWave
05-06-2012, 01:03 PM
mainland is about 110+ KM at the closet point IIRC. on average it's about 180km, so essentially close to a day's boatride, or about 1+ hour by plane, obviously quite close.

Tempature... its' basically 2 season, summer and... not summer... coldest it gets is about 9 degree C (50 degree ish F?) on sea level, though obviously some of the high peaks may snow occasionally. though for most of the season it's usually at least in the upper 70F and more likely in the 90degree F range... so yeah... it's pretty much a tropical island . though because most houses aren't heated here and it's wet even in winter AND most of us ride around on scooters so winters can still be annoying.

Taiwan is pretty terrible in terms of natural disastor, it'll basically earthquake every month and usually a pretty big one every couple year. and of course Typhoons comes in the bushels here. on average 3-4 typhoon a year. usually effecting the whole island. oh right did I meantion that some of those mountains are actually vocanos ? :grin: luckily there hasn't been any tracable eruoption in Taiwan in about a thousand years.

Taiwan also has the oddity of being a very rainy place but has just one semi navigable river. because the rain mostly fall in the high mountains and there's a very short distance between the origin to the mouth, most rivers have extreme variations, ranging from extremely shallow creeks when it's not raining to a monster when it is.. the degree of variation is pretty crazy.

(here's an example.. see that river in the back? that's what its like in non-raining time... and all that bedrock around it? that's what it's like when it rains hard.)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e4/Shuili_Panoramic.jpg

Peter1469
05-06-2012, 01:06 PM
Pretty place

RollingWave
05-06-2012, 01:22 PM
How much would your defense budget increase if the US lifted its shield of protection? How would that affect your economy?
that really depends... for starters... the US shield of protection seems pretty questionable from here. since no permenant military unit or bases have been in Taiwan for over 30 years, and the shield seem to come at the price of buying a lot of stuff at extrodinary price with questionable uses. US's protection nowadays really comes in the form of general presumption that if China is going to outright mass and attack the US supposedly wont' let them... but how much of that is real is anyone's guess. but obviously the stakes too high for China to really gamble on it, and politically speaking it seems that it's too high for most president to back down from as well.

If the US openly oblige that they'll turn a blind eye... then really the PRC can sink us without firing a shot anyway. since their a UN security council member and we're not even in the UN. they could simply declare Taiwan a warzone and that no foriegn ship should sail there... a full blockade with nothing but words. and if the US let them do that hey they just managed to do a full blockade without lifting a finger. what can we do? even with nukes we can't do shite.

The truth is, if the US really REALLY openly back out from Taiwan, there will be very very strong pressure for us to simply join the mainland while we still can. because as I've pointed out above, the international circumstances is insanely against us if that happens. where the PRC can essentially destroy our economy instantly with nothing but a UN resolution.

We could and do want to raise our military budget, the problem is that generally there's a sense that it doesn't make a difference, if the US is going to interfer then the more we spend the more it goes to the USA anyway, and if they're not we can spend everything and it still won't do jack.

Peter1469
05-06-2012, 01:36 PM
that really depends... for starters... the US shield of protection seems pretty questionable from here. since no permenant military unit or bases have been in Taiwan for over 30 years, and the shield seem to come at the price of buying a lot of stuff at extrodinary price with questionable uses. US's protection nowadays really comes in the form of general presumption that if China is going to outright mass and attack the US supposedly wont' let them... but how much of that is real is anyone's guess. but obviously the stakes too high for China to really gamble on it, and politically speaking it seems that it's too high for most president to back down from as well.

If the US openly oblige that they'll turn a blind eye... then really the PRC can sink us without firing a shot anyway. since their a UN security council member and we're not even in the UN. they could simply declare Taiwan a warzone and that no foriegn ship should sail there... a full blockade with nothing but words. and if the US let them do that hey they just managed to do a full blockade without lifting a finger. what can we do? even with nukes we can't do shite.

The truth is, if the US really REALLY openly back out from Taiwan, there will be very very strong pressure for us to simply join the mainland while we still can. because as I've pointed out above, the international circumstances is insanely against us if that happens. where the PRC can essentially destroy our economy instantly with nothing but a UN resolution.

We could and do want to raise our military budget, the problem is that generally there's a sense that it doesn't make a difference, if the US is going to interfer then the more we spend the more it goes to the USA anyway, and if they're not we can spend everything and it still won't do jack.


Great response, thanks.

Does not the US typically have an air craft carrier battle group near Twain?

RollingWave
05-06-2012, 01:47 PM
Great response, thanks.

Does not the US typically have an air craft carrier battle group near Twain?
The 7th Fleet is stationed in Japan, IIRC they intentionally don't come too close to Taiwan normally, though during my tenure on the Navy I did one spot an Arleigh Burke (i think it was that... at least) rounding the Bashi Channel, but obviously that's not a fleet. (I spoted many more PRC survellance ship FWIW.)

They did bring it into the strait during the 1997 missile crisis but that's very very rare because at the point the PRC actually massed units in the South East in for an unschedueled exersice (which is obviopusly a huge redlight to any military planner.) we havn't even held joint excesive with the US fleet since the official relationship ended in 1979. which pretty much sums it up (though the protocal for cordination with the US in the event of war is still in place). though the presence of the 7th Fleet is obviously the most concrete deterence for the PRC to make anymove off their shores.

Peter1469
05-06-2012, 01:55 PM
Isn't the fleet at Japan close enough to protect Taiwan should China choose to invade?

wingrider
05-06-2012, 03:10 PM
Isn't the fleet at Japan close enough to protect Taiwan should China choose to invade?
nope

Peter1469
05-06-2012, 03:21 PM
nope

Japan is about 1400 miles from Taiwan. http://www.mapcrow.info/Distance_between_Taiwan_TW_and_Tokyo_JA.html

How long would it take the American carrier group to get within striking range of the Chinese logistical trail?

wingrider
05-06-2012, 03:30 PM
not sure but I think they travell at about 30 knots an hour so about 20 hours or so.. when minutes count the navy is just hours away.

Peter1469
05-06-2012, 03:50 PM
I would think that a US navy carrier battle group within 20 hours of Taiwan would give China pause in considering an invasion.

How soon could the air group engage?

spunkloaf
05-06-2012, 07:07 PM
Apparently the right wing think it sucks here because they hate liberals and everything they stand for. I suggest they leave. :smiley: Find a better place.

wingrider
05-06-2012, 07:17 PM
forum or country spunk? which is it?

Peter1469
05-06-2012, 07:52 PM
Apparently the right wing think it sucks here because they hate liberals and everything they stand for. I suggest they leave. :smiley: Find a better place.

Let's find a place that actually follows the US Constitution. That nation would thrive and grow.

Vilifier of Zombies
05-06-2012, 08:01 PM
New Zealand - Switzerland - Luxembourg, all for different reasons.

If not for the weather I'd include Finland and Norway.

dsolo802
05-06-2012, 08:14 PM
Costa Rica is a pretty sweet place. Great for an extended visit.

Vilifier of Zombies
05-06-2012, 08:16 PM
Costa Rica is a pretty sweet place. Great for an extended visit.

We've been looking at property in New Zealand for a couple of years now, we've been whittling down the details (I've lost most of the arguments, it's easier that way), one thing we do agree on whole heartedly is that when the last kid moves out, we'll be moving as well.

Conley
05-06-2012, 08:18 PM
New Zealand does seem like it would be a great place to live.

wingrider
05-06-2012, 08:18 PM
Costa Rica is a pretty sweet place. Great for an extended visit.
my sentimensts exactly.. for once I am in total agreement with you,, OMG its a miracle

Conley
05-06-2012, 08:20 PM
:laugh: A sure sign the Apocalypse is upon us?

dsolo802
05-06-2012, 08:24 PM
my sentimensts exactly.. for once I am in total agreement with you,, OMG its a miracleWell, then, we both believe in miracles.

But hey, don't we agree on a bunch of stuff involving religion?

Vilifier of Zombies
05-06-2012, 08:25 PM
New Zealand does seem like it would be a great place to live.

I equate New Zealand to our version of 1950's conservatism politically in the modern world. People tend to say what's on their minds and common sense seems to rule the day, it's not without it's problems but it's a lot more laid back than the US, and it's a hop skip and a jump to the Philippines - a place I don't even want to visit much less live, so it works out for the misses, who is a Filipino.

wingrider
05-06-2012, 08:33 PM
Well, then, we both believe in miracles.

But hey, don't we agree on a bunch of stuff involving religion? true.. but I think politically we are diametrically opposed.

Mister D
05-06-2012, 08:35 PM
Now how can two Christians be opposed politically? I hear tell Christians all have the same political views.

Vilifier of Zombies
05-06-2012, 08:55 PM
I would think that a US navy carrier battle group within 20 hours of Taiwan would give China pause in considering an invasion.

How soon could the air group engage?

Not just that but all the DRF units in the Pacific - back in the early 90's, DRF 1 (the division was divided up into four DRF's) from the 25th, counting down from zero hour, it would take seventeen hours to load up (we kept most of our gear at Hickam AFB if on DRF 1, as a Stinger, it was a given at that time you'd spend most of your time regardless of where you were deployed to or why on DRF 1) - go to - unload - equip - then join the fight in South Korea...I can't imagine if it were Taiwan instead it would add all that much more time to the equation.

My guess is four or five hours and a carrier's aviation assets (refuelers, attack, support, and fighter aircraft) can be over Taiwan from Japan.

spunkloaf
05-06-2012, 09:22 PM
Let's find a place that actually follows the US Constitution. That nation would thrive and grow.

I agree. The right should really shape up, and start following their own advice.

RollingWave
05-06-2012, 09:49 PM
Isn't the fleet at Japan close enough to protect Taiwan should China choose to invade?


I would think that a US navy carrier battle group within 20 hours of Taiwan would give China pause in considering an invasion.

How soon could the air group engage?


Not just that but all the DRF units in the Pacific - back in the early 90's, DRF 1 (the division was divided up into four DRF's) from the 25th, counting down from zero hour, it would take seventeen hours to load up (we kept most of our gear at Hickam AFB if on DRF 1, as a Stinger, it was a given at that time you'd spend most of your time regardless of where you were deployed to or why on DRF 1) - go to - unload - equip - then join the fight in South Korea...I can't imagine if it were Taiwan instead it would add all that much more time to the equation.

My guess is four or five hours and a carrier's aviation assets (refuelers, attack, support, and fighter aircraft) can be over Taiwan from Japan.

Generally speaking, yes.

Yes Chinese airforce could obviously hit us before the 7th fleet even sailed out of harbor, but to take Taiwan with nothing but airforce and missile is extremely optimistic at best. and it's not like we don't have singificant AA and airforce of our own.

Unless the PRC want to gamble on taking Taiwan with nothing but jets and very small landing party (like 2-3 thousand man at the very best with 0 heavy equipment... against an island with well over 200k active service men, over 1000 tank and close to 100 attack helicopter...)... the odds of that succeeding obviously isn't zero, but if they succeed our military would go down as probably one of the most incompetent ever, and I don't think we're THAT bad .

Barring that, the PRC must muster a very significant force to invade, consider that Taiwans' standing military is close to 300k and the more reasaonable estimate of reserves that can be called up still easily double that number... we're looking at something like 800k-1 Million army when everything is assembled, packed in a pretty small island (much smaller than the zone the German was defending against the Allies before Normandy landing, MUCH smaller), that is a tough case to crack .. espeically if you don't have unlimited time.

The US guarentee is mostly in the case of such events, if China is mustering a huge army and obviously preparing for war in the southeast the US would have all the time in the world to prepare... consider for a moment here that D-Day took 6 month to prepare, a full amphibious invasion of Taiwan is only likely to take longer and not shorter.

So forget about the 7th fleet, with that sort of Time the US could basically get any / all of their fleet into the region before China really attacks. they could even land troops into Taiwan, or install / loan / sell new weapons to us .

Amphibious operation are by far the toughest, espeically if the PRC don't have full naval AND air superiority, then it's likly to be outright suicide. and the bigger problem is that the PRC politiaclly speaking can't afford to lose that fight, and once they start to pick it they also can't back down.

dsolo802
05-06-2012, 09:49 PM
true.. but I think politically we are diametrically opposed.Let's be open to the possibility that we share a bunch of common ground. Better to do that than to assume the opposite, and miss each other for sure.

wingrider
05-07-2012, 08:21 AM
Now how can two Christians be opposed politically? I hear tell Christians all have the same political views. I really hope that was tongue in cheek,, LOL no christians can be politically opposed but are in accord spiritualy.. Dsolo is a good person but we disagree on some aspects of the political spectrum. not all but some..

wingrider
05-07-2012, 08:23 AM
Let's be open to the possibility that we share a bunch of common ground. Better to do that than to assume the opposite, and miss each other for sure.
we will see how that works out, I will read your posts and comment and you do the same with mine,, who knows where it willl lead.. cool

MMC
05-07-2012, 09:10 AM
Hmmmmm.....methinks the Wing Commander should have to show us paradise. What you guys think? :evil:

wingrider
05-07-2012, 10:43 AM
http://www.travelingcostarica.com/travel/costarica_pictures/costarica_photos.htm

http://photobucket.com/images/costa%20rica/

http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotos-g291982-w2-Costa_Rica.html#1942597

the last one has a slide show that is excellent.

RollingWave
05-25-2012, 04:15 AM
Visiting a place is always better than living isn't it ? :tongue: from all the woe you hear here (which is already a lot more sane than those elsewhere) you'd never guess US tourist visit number is at at 10 year high .

Canadianeye
09-24-2012, 02:34 PM
Viva la cooba

On my way there this week, but wouldn't want to stay for any long stretch of time. Texas carries an appeal to what I admire in America.