Liberty or Security: Which Do Americans Prefer?

[KC]

As the United States prepares for war yet again in a distant land in the name of protecting American national security, I think the question is worth asking. Do Americans prefer liberty or security? Liberty is clearly a huge part of American rhetoric. Freedom is part of our national character. But do we really prefer liberty or freedom to security? Security comes in many forms. A large welfare state, counter terrorist measures at home and abroad, a strong national "defense," etc.; these are features of the American security state.

Which do you think most Americans prefer?

[kilgram]

I am not American but I prefer freedom/liberty.

By the way, why did you choose the term liberty instead of freedom? What is the difference? For me the difference is that one is a cultism and the other one no.

[Chris]

I think most Americans prefer security over liberty. How else account for the out-of-control growth of government.

H. W. Brands in The Strange Death of American Liberalism developed the theme that Americans while at heart want to conserve liberty are in times of crisis willing to give it up for security. In times of war, for example, the Great Depression another example. His book ends on a positive note we were turning back toward liberty.

9/11 occurred shortly after. We've been in perpetual war ever since, and we're now in the midst of the Great Recession.

Personally I prefer liberty, but not, I'm afraid, most Americans.

[KC]

I think most Americans prefer security over liberty. How else account for the out-of-control growth of government.

H. W. Brands in The Strange Death of American Liberalism developed the theme that Americans while at heart want to conserve liberty are in times of crisis willing to give it up for security. In times of war, for example, the Great Depression another example. His book ends on a positive note we were turning back toward liberty.

9/11 occurred shortly after. We've been in perpetual war ever since, and we're now in the midst of the Great Recession.

Personally I prefer liberty, but not, I'm afraid, most Americans.

That bolded portion raises another good question. Clearly the American government prefers security, but is this because it is fulfilling a genuine desire, or because action always makes politicians look better than inaction?

[PolWatch]

perfect example: the Patriot Act.

[Chris]

That bolded portion raises another good question. Clearly the American government prefers security, but is this because it is fulfilling a genuine desire, or because action always makes politicians look better than inaction?

The latter, I think, there's a problem, do something, anything, some expert will figure out what. I've always though that of liberal progressives but am coming to think it's as true of the right, at least the establishment right.

[Chris]

perfect example: the Patriot Act.

And Obamacare. Vote for it so we know what's in it!

[PolWatch]

And Obamacare. Vote for it so we know what's in it!

well, we did have a choice: vote for me &, if elected, I'll tell you what my plan is!

[Polecat]

Unfortunately I believe both are imaginary conditions that can be aimed for but never actually reached. But I'll take liberty over security any day. Security means treating everyone and everything as a threat. There is no place for the pursuit of happiness in that climate.

[Captain Obvious]

Both.

The concept of these being polar opposites (or extremes) is over-politicized.

[Chris]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~Ben Franklin

[Mac-7]

perfect example: the Patriot Act.

Bleeding hearts chose the patriot act because they didn't want to prohibit muslims from immigrating to this country.

islams are a serious threat but libs don't want to seem racist.

[Captain Obvious]

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." ~Ben Franklin

"Take everything you read into consideration but at the end of the day form your own fucking opinion instead of substituting someone else's for it" ~ Captain Obvious

[Common Sense]

"Islams"...lol...

[Chris]

"Take everything you read into consideration but at the end of the day form your own fucking opinion instead of substituting someone else's for it" ~ Captain Obvious

Considered...nope, my opinion is like Ben's, liberty is more important than security, but the American people in general will give up liberty for security.

[Mac-7]

"Islams"...lol...

Apparently Wisconsin and Michigan are infested with Somalis and Muslims from other marginal countries.

And from that group are many of the "Americans" who joined Isis coming from.

[Common Sense]

Apparently Wisconsin and Michigan are infested with Somalis and Muslims from other marginal countries.

And from that group are the "Americans" who joined Isis coming from.

"Islams"

[PolWatch]

Bleeding hearts chose the patriot act because they didn't want to prohibit muslims from immigrating to this country.

islams are a serious threat but libs don't want to seem racist.

'bleeding hearts"...'libs'???? uh, do ya know who proposed & passed the Patriot Act? Hint: gwb

[Mac-7]

"Islams"

or turbans if you prefer.

[Captain Obvious]

"Islams"

That's PC for "ragheads" btw

[Captain Obvious]

or turbans if you prefer.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDV1RLMwR9k

[Common Sense]

or turbans if you prefer.

Lots of Muslims don't wear turbans...and Sikhs wear turbans. They're not Muslims.

[PolWatch]

I wear a turban..does that make me an Islam?

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.607998895018740530&pid=15.1&P=0

[Mac-7]

I wear a turban..does that make me an Islam?

https://sp.yimg.com/ib/th?id=HN.607998895018740530&pid=15.1&P=0

Not necessarily.

[Cigar]

Nobody really knows how many Vietnamese died, but most Americans don’t really give a shit.

But 58,000 Americans did die in that jungle and some of them are still dying to this day ... and for what? For nothing.

The war didn’t make America any safer.
The war didn’t make Vietnam any safer.
The war didn’t end the slaughter.
It didn’t stop communism.

Those 58,000 Americans died for nothing.

We’ve been at war in the Middle East for a decade ... and here we go again ... for what? NOTHING! Not a GD Thing!

[Cigar]

Lots of Muslims don't wear turbans...and Sikhs wear turbans. They're not Muslims.


There you go again ... Common Sense :laugh:

[Mac-7]

Nobody really knows how many Vietnamese died, but most Americans don’t really give a shit.

But 58,000 Americans did die in that jungle and some of them are still dying to this day ... and for what? For nothing.

The war didn’t make America any safer.
The war didn’t make Vietnam any safer.
The war didn’t end the slaughter.
It didn’t stop communism.

Those 58,000 Americans died for nothing.

We’ve been at war in the Middle East for a decade ... and here we go again ... for what? NOTHING! Not a GD Thing!


The Vietnam war saved Thailand, the Philippines and Malaysia from the threat of communist expansion.

[The Xl]

The Vietnam war saved Thailand, the Philippines and Malaysia from the threat of communist expansion.

That's nice, has nothing to do with America.

[Polecat]

The Vietnam war saved Thailand, the Philippines and Malaysia from the threat of communist expansion.

Boy did that blow up in our face! Those countries are now being overrun with Islam. This would never have happened under the communists.

[Mac-7]

That's nice, has nothing to do with America.

It had everything to do with America.

if the world had been overrun by communism our position as the last remaining democracy and capitalist economic system would have been indefensible.

[The Xl]

It had everything to do with America.

if the world had been overrun by communism our position as the last remaining democracy and capitalist economic system would have been indefensible.

Yeah, because Communism was just going to overrun Europe and the rest of the world, just like that. Sure.

In any case, the system of government sovereign countries wish to employ is not our business.

[Captain Obvious]

It had everything to do with America.

if the world had been overrun by communism our position as the last remaining democracy and capitalist economic system would have been indefensible.

So we die from cancer instead of a heart attack.

Awesome!

[Mac-7]

Yeah, because Communism was just going to overrun Europe and the rest of the world, just like that. Sure.

In any case, the system of government sovereign countries wish to employ is not our business.

Without the United States communism would have been the wave of the future.

which is why lefties hate America so much.

[The Xl]

Without the United States communism would have been the wave of the future.

which is why lefties hate America so much.

Baseless conjecture, on both fronts.

Really, you're just spouting random nonsense.

[Mac-7]

Baseless conjecture, on both fronts.

Really, you're just spouting random nonsense.

its not baseless at all.

Stalin and Mao along with others fully intended to destroy the capitalist west and replace it with a copy of themselves.

[The Xl]

its not baseless at all.

Stalin and Mao along with others fully intended to destroy the capitalist west and replace it with a copy of themselves.

They intended to, huh? That's nice.

Doesn't change the fact that "Without the United States communism would have been the wave of the future" is unsubstantiated nonsense.

Not our business what sovereign countries did, anyway.

[Mac-7]

They intended to, huh? That's nice.

Doesn't change the fact that "Without the United States communism would have been the wave of the future" is unsubstantiated nonsense.

Not our business what sovereign countries did, anyway.

There were two opposing forces during the Cold War.

the only thing holding the communists back was America.

[The Xl]

There were two opposing forces during the Cold War.

the only thing holding the communists back was America.

I'm sure all of Europe was just going to turn Communist.

Doesn't matter either way, wasn't our business, nor was it the issue of the kids you guys murdered by sending them over there.

[kilgram]

its not baseless at all.

Stalin and Mao along with others fully intended to destroy the capitalist west and replace it with a copy of themselves.
Supposing that is true that is not. Is your problem in some way?

And let's analize it... USA didn't pretend to do exactly the same? Export their shitty system to the rest of the world.

[Chris]

Democracy is crappy system to export.

[Mac-7]

Supposing that is true that is not. Is your problem in some way?

And let's analize it... USA didn't pretend to do exactly the same? Export their shitty system to the rest of the world.

Yes it was our problem.

our system was and is far superior to communism or islam.

[Mac-7]

Democracy is crappy system to export.

Can you name a better system?

[Chris]

Can you name a better system?

Monarchy. Anarchism. At a general level there are only those three. Democracy is the worst.

[Mac-7]

Monarchy. Anarchism. At a general level there are only those three. Democracy is the worst.

If Jesus is king then I agree monarchy is the best.

but democracy is the best system for mere mortals.

[Chris]

If Jesus is king then I agree monarchy is the best.

but democracy is the best system for mere mortals.

Jesus is King, I suppose, to some, in faith, not politics.

Democracy is not good for the simple reason the ruling class, politicians, have power but no ownership, no stake in the land or people, and thus serve only themselves. Witness the widespread corruption in collusion between government and business. At least with a monarchy the rulers have ownership and a stake the game and will in serving their own interests serve those they rule. Under anarchy--anarchocapitalism, at least--everyone owns private property.

[Mac-7]

Jesus is King, I suppose, to some, in faith, not politics.

Democracy is not good for the simple reason the ruling class, politicians, have power but no ownership, no stake in the land or people, and thus serve only themselves. Witness the widespread corruption in collusion between government and business. At least with a monarchy the rulers have ownership and a stake the game and will in serving their own interests serve those they rule. Under anarchy--anarchocapitalism, at least--everyone owns private property.

I must say this is the most radical bunch of lefties I have seen in a long time.

anarchists, isolationists, pacifists, Cold War deniers.

we have it all here.

[The Xl]

It's great when big government republicans accuse those who support smaller government than they do "lefties"

[Chris]

I must say this is the most radical bunch of lefties I have seen in a long time.

anarchists, isolationists, pacifists, Cold War deniers.

we have it all here.

I always find it odd when someone who purports to be on the right supports statism as you apparently do. I always though that was a thing of the left. Apparently not.

[Chris]

It's great when big government republicans accuse those who support smaller government than they do "lefties"

Oh, here I thought he was conservative, but he's a Republican. My bad.

[Common Sense]

So the US lost in Vietnam...so why then did communism not spread throughout south east Asia? Now the US and Vietnam have a 30 billion dollar trade relationship. Maybe the US should loose more wars.;)

On a related note, why have trade sanctions been lifted against Vietnam and even North Korea...but not Cuba?

[Chris]

And why has China, for example, turned to capitalism, state capitalism, yes, but capitalism?

[Mac-7]

I always find it odd when someone who purports to be on the right supports statism as you apparently do. I always though that was a thing of the left. Apparently not.

Im a statist?

thats news to me.

[The Xl]

Im a statist?

thats news to me.

Do you not read your own posts or something?

[Chris]

Im a statist?

thats news to me.

Are you an anarchist? No. You're a statist. And an interventionist, if not an imperialist abroad, which affects your politics at home.

[Mac-7]

Are you an anarchist? No. You're a statist. And an interventionist, if not an imperialist abroad, which affects your politics at home.

Everyone is either a statist or an anarchist?

Then in your world I guess that makes me a statist.

but in the real world I live in I'm neither one.

[Chris]

Everyone is either a statist or an anarchist?

Then in your world I guess that makes me a statist.

but in the real world I live in I'm neither one.

To one degree or another, yes. Just as to one degree or another everyone falls to the left or the right.

http://i.snag.gy/Gzd9M.jpg

If you have some need to you can see those as either/or absolutes.


Is that the best argument you have, that that's my world but your world is reality, lol. That's about as strong as your argument for democracy, which is nonexistent other than to declare it good.

[Mac-7]

To one degree or another, yes. Just as to one degree or another everyone falls to the left or the right.

http://i.snag.gy/Gzd9M.jpg

If you have some need to you can see those as either/or absolutes.


Is that the best argument you have, that that's my world but your world is reality, lol. That's about as strong as your argument for democracy, which is nonexistent other than to declare it good.

That's an interesting picture but you should not let it do your thinking for you.

if it tells you to be an anarchist that doesn't mean you have to do it.

[donttread]

As the United States prepares for war yet again in a distant land in the name of protecting American national security, I think the question is worth asking. Do Americans prefer liberty or security? Liberty is clearly a huge part of American rhetoric. Freedom is part of our national character. But do we really prefer liberty or freedom to security? Security comes in many forms. A large welfare state, counter terrorist measures at home and abroad, a strong national "defense," etc.; these are features of the American security state.

Which do you think most Americans prefer?

I see absolutely nothing about our current overseas "interventions" that in any way provide for our security. Quite the opposite in fact

[Mac-7]

I see absolutely nothing about our current overseas "interventions" that in any way provide for our security. Quite the opposite in fact

If Isis were only taking over Syria I would agree with you.

and if not for the weakness of Iraq Isis would be getting slaughtered from two sides at the same time and our involvement would be minimal.

but allowing Isis to live and grow like a weed would be a big mistake.

[Chris]

That's an interesting picture but you should not let it do your thinking for you.

if it tells you to be an anarchist that doesn't mean you have to do it.

I think you're projecting, mac. Let me know when you have an argument, any argument, for democracy, or counters to my points.

[Mac-7]

I think you're projecting, mac. Let me know when you have an argument, any argument, for democracy, or counters to my points.

Ive answered all your arguments but you just don't agree with them.

[Chris]

Ive answered all your arguments but you just don't agree with them.

All you said of democracy is it's good. You've not mustered an argument why or how. I argued by monarchy is better than democracy, and anarchy better than monarchy. It was a simple argument, but you have not countered it at all.

Consider the following which has been our discussion of forms of government:

Chris, in response to communist democrat Kilgram: "Democracy is crappy system to export."

Mac: "Can you name a better system?"

Chris: "Monarchy. Anarchism. At a general level there are only those three. Democracy is the worst."

Mac, changes topic: "If Jesus is king then I agree monarchy is the best. but democracy is the best system for mere mortals."

Chris dismisses topic change, presents argument: "Jesus is King, I suppose, to some, in faith, not politics. Democracy is not good for the simple reason the ruling class, politicians, have power but no ownership, no stake in the land or people, and thus serve only themselves. Witness the widespread corruption in collusion between government and business. At least with a monarchy the rulers have ownership and a stake the game and will in serving their own interests serve those they rule. Under anarchy--anarchocapitalism, at least--everyone owns private property."

Mac, changes topic: "I must say this is the most radical bunch of lefties I have seen in a long time. anarchists, isolationists, pacifists, Cold War deniers. we have it all here."

That's it, you've offered no arguments, no rebuttals, just topic-changing distractions.

The same could be said of your statism.

[Peter1469]

Americans like security and liberty. Some more of one than the other. Also in times of perceived danger Americans tolerate more security over liberty.

[Mac-7]

All you said of democracy is it's good. You've not mustered an argument why or how. I argued by monarchy is better than democracy, and anarchy better than monarchy. It was a simple argument, but you have not countered it at all.

Consider the following which has been our discussion of forms of government:

Chris, in response to communist democrat Kilgram: "Democracy is crappy system to export."

Mac: "Can you name a better system?"

Chris: "Monarchy. Anarchism. At a general level there are only those three. Democracy is the worst."

Mac, changes topic: "If Jesus is king then I agree monarchy is the best. but democracy is the best system for mere mortals."

Chris dismisses topic change, presents argument: "Jesus is King, I suppose, to some, in faith, not politics. Democracy is not good for the simple reason the ruling class, politicians, have power but no ownership, no stake in the land or people, and thus serve only themselves. Witness the widespread corruption in collusion between government and business. At least with a monarchy the rulers have ownership and a stake the game and will in serving their own interests serve those they rule. Under anarchy--anarchocapitalism, at least--everyone owns private property."

Mac, changes topic: "I must say this is the most radical bunch of lefties I have seen in a long time. anarchists, isolationists, pacifists, Cold War deniers. we have it all here."

That's it, you've offered no arguments, no rebuttals, just topic-changing distractions.

The same could be said of your statism.

I changed no subject.

you brought up monarchy and I answered you.

and what more needs to be said about democracy than when compared to every other form of government its better?

[Chris]

I changed no subject.

you brought up monarchy and I answered you.

and what more needs to be said about democracy than when compared to every other form of government its better?

Look at our discussion again, mac, you challenged me to name forms of government better than democracy and I answered you and in the next post explained why monarchy and anarchy are better.

And even now the most you have to say is nothing in defense of democracy other than to repeat your claim it's better.

In many ways you're exactly like kilgram who I was initially responding to, the both of you side with democracy but offer nothing to defend it.

[Mac-7]

Look at our discussion again, mac, you challenged me to name forms of government better than democracy and I answered you and in the next post explained why monarchy and anarchy are better.

And even now the most you have to say is nothing in defense of democracy other than to repeat your claim it's better.

In many ways you're exactly like kilgram who I was initially responding to, the both of you side with democracy but offer nothing to defend it.

I could not believe any enlightened person would not think democracy was the best form of government.

but if you don't think so nothing I say could possibly change your mind.

it would be like speaking Latin to someone who only understands Chinese.

[Chris]

I could not believe any enlightened person would not think democracy was the best form of government.

but if you don't think so nothing I say could possibly change your mind.

it would be like speaking Latin to someone who only understands Chinese.


Still nothing, nada, zip, zilch, null and void.

[Mac-7]

Still nothing, nada, zip, zilch, null and void.

Im not here to convince people of anything.

we are all far too opinionated for that.

but I will tell you what I think with no pc bs.

[del]

Baseless conjecture, on both fronts.

Really, you're just spouting random nonsense.

you misspelled ransom's

[The Xl]

you misspelled ransom's

You win the thread.

[Dr. Who]

I think most Americans prefer security over liberty. How else account for the out-of-control growth of government.

H. W. Brands in The Strange Death of American Liberalism developed the theme that Americans while at heart want to conserve liberty are in times of crisis willing to give it up for security. In times of war, for example, the Great Depression another example. His book ends on a positive note we were turning back toward liberty.

9/11 occurred shortly after. We've been in perpetual war ever since, and we're now in the midst of the Great Recession.

Personally I prefer liberty, but not, I'm afraid, most Americans.
I think that the government rhetoric reflects that bias and also forms the basis for the disinformation that is promulgated.

[Redrose]

I think most Americans prefer security over liberty. How else account for the out-of-control growth of government.

H. W. Brands in The Strange Death of American Liberalism developed the theme that Americans while at heart want to conserve liberty are in times of crisis willing to give it up for security. In times of war, for example, the Great Depression another example. His book ends on a positive note we were turning back toward liberty.

9/11 occurred shortly after. We've been in perpetual war ever since, and we're now in the midst of the Great Recession.

Personally I prefer liberty, but not, I'm afraid, most Americans.



We have out of control government growth AND no security.

[Dark Mistress]

We have out of control government growth AND no security.

Aw but there is the illusion of security. People eat it up.

It kills me talking to people sometimes about what they think is what. Then again I may be off my rocker in my illusions of reality. My brain doesn't work half the time anyways.

I did however remember to get Cthulhu's lunch ready to go for tomorrow-I am feeling pretty good right now!

[PolWatch]

Aw but there is the illusion of security. People eat it up.

It kills me talking to people sometimes about what they think is what. Then again I may be off my rocker in my illusions of reality. My brain doesn't work half the time anyways.

I did however remember to get Cthulhu's lunch ready to go for tomorrow-I am feeling pretty good right now!

my husband said he knew it had been a bad morning (5 am) when he bit into a sandwich & found lettuce & jelly...'cause he knew the other sandwich was peanut butter & ham! (he said its not really too bad)...:wink:

[Codename Section]

Americans think "liberty" is going to a Fourth of July party and waving a flag.

[Matty]

Americans think "liberty" is going to a Fourth of July party and waving a flag.
Some do, not all, some moan they have no liberty.

[Mac-7]

my husband said he knew it had been a bad morning (5 am) when he bit into a sandwich & found lettuce & jelly...'cause he knew the other sandwich was peanut butter & ham! (he said its not really too bad)...:wink:

You can solve that problem by telling the GOP to raise the federal budget and fully fund the Office of Workplace Nutrition that the evil Republicans have been obstructing.

obama and his estranged wife care as much about the eating habits of workers as they do children but are powerless without your vote.

[Chris]

We have out of control government growth AND no security.

As Gerald Ford put it, "A government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."

[Chris]

Americans think "liberty" is going to a Fourth of July party and waving a flag.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec0XKhAHR5I

[donttread]

Aw but there is the illusion of security. People eat it up.

It kills me talking to people sometimes about what they think is what. Then again I may be off my rocker in my illusions of reality. My brain doesn't work half the time anyways.

I did however remember to get Cthulhu's lunch ready to go for tomorrow-I am feeling pretty good right now!

Illusion is correct. Security from a threat those selling you protection from created themselves. Like computer viruses. It is as if I release a rapid dog into a neighborhood and it infects and kills a couple people and I then come along and shoot the dog and claim hero status. How stupid would the neighborhood have to be to buy that? Sheep stupid!

[donttread]

Perhaps the real question for todays America is which do you prefer Security or taking responsibility?

[Chris]

Perhaps the real question for todays America is which do you prefer Security or taking responsibility?

Liberty is a responsibility many would prefer to hand over to government.

[donttread]

Liberty is a responsibility many would prefer to hand over to government.

As Jefferson said: "The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance" And somewhere along the way we the people quit making the payments

[Chris]

As Jefferson said: "The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance" And somewhere along the way we the people quit making the payments

According to the Jefferson Montecello site, which checks these quotes, Jefferson didn't say it, but it is right on target: "This quotation was well-known in the nineteenth century, and was in fact used by a number of famous figures, including Frederick Douglass, James Buchanan, and William Henry Harrison. It can be traced back, ultimately, to John Philpot Curran's statement, "The condition upon which God hath given liberty to man is eternal vigilance; which condition if he break, servitude is at once the consequence of his crime and the punishment of his guilt."[4] Curran was still being directly quoted (more or less accurately) and credited with the quote in American newspapers in the early 19th century, but before long the quote was being used without Curran's name, and was being shortened to its more well-known modern form."

[PolWatch]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ec0XKhAHR5I

hmm..ya know, that song reminds me of gwb...wonder why??