What is fascism?

[iustitia]

I'm curious as to what each person on this forum thinks fascism is. There are those that think anything related to uniforms and authority are fascist. That the police and the military are fascist. Some define fascism as corporatism. Fascism has become a word for people to conflate everything they don't like into. A slur. "Leftists" of varying brands often refer to any competing system, philosophy or ideology as fascist. Some people consider Italian Fascism, German Nazism, and other national movements as related examples as fascism but some consider National Socialism, National Syndicalism, Greek Metaxism, Spanish Falangism, Latin Integralism as separate. Conservatives in the US often parrot Jonah Goldberg in stating that fascism and naziism are socialist ideologies that just reject internationalism, thus they're nationalist socialists. Stalinists argued that fascism was the last leg of capitalism reacting to its impending death.

I have my views, but I'd like to know others. Is every two-bit drug-smuggling dictator we propped up in Latin America, Africa and the Middle East a fascist? Are corporatists that want government/business/banking collusion fascists? Are traditionalists or "rightists" fascists? Was Stalin a fascist for reviving the Imperial Russian Army and reopening the Orthodox churches to fight the "Great Patriotic War"? Is the CIA fascist? Was FDR fascist? What is fascism in your words and try to give an example if you can.

[Mac-7]

I'm curious as to what each person on this forum thinks fascism is. There are those that think anything related to uniforms and authority are fascist. That the police and the military are fascist. Some define fascism as corporatism. Fascism has become a word for people to conflate everything they don't like into. A slur. "Leftists" of varying brands often refer to any competing system, philosophy or ideology as fascist. Some people consider Italian Fascism, German Nazism, and other national movements as related examples as fascism but some consider National Socialism, National Syndicalism, Greek Metaxism, Spanish Falangism, Latin Integralism as separate. Conservatives in the US often parrot Jonah Goldberg in the fascism and naziism are socialist ideologies that just reject internationalism, thus they're nationalist socialists. Stalinists argued that fascism was the last leg of capitalism reacting to its impending death.

I have my views, but I'd like to know others. Is every two-bit drug-smuggling dictator we propped up in Latin America, Africa and the Middle East a fascist? Are corporatists that want government/business/banking collusion fascists? Are traditionalists or "rightists" fascists? Was Stalin a fascist for reviving the Imperial Russian Army and reopening the Orthodox churches to fight the "Great Patriotic War"? Is the CIA fascist? Was FDR fascist? What is fascism in your words and try to give an example if you can.


Conservatives in the US often parrot Jonah Goldberg in the fascism and naziism are socialist ideologies that just reject internationalism, thus they're nationalist socialists.

Goldberg thinks so too?

well I'm not surprised.

its so obvious that many conservatives have been able to see it.

fascism is a form of statism so closely related to socialism they are both just two sides of the same supreme government coin.

[Peter1469]

Fascism (little F) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism. The government is tied to major corporations. But it is not "corporatist." In a corporatist government, corporations make government policy. In fascism corporations are used by government for the purpose of the State. Those who don't play ball cease to exist and their management are disappeared.

“All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.” Benito Mussolini

[midcan5]

"When fascism comes to America...it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross." Sinclair Lewis

The OP pretty much outlines the various definitions and uses of fascism, after that the replies follow the usual schoolyard dialectic, 'no, you are.' I have a great deal of information on fascism I will post below for the interested. The word is rather meaningless today and has attained four letter word status.

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/28518-Nazism?p=686764&viewfull=1#post686764

Excellent book:
"When one considers the ideology of fascism many notions and images spring to mind: totalitarianism, nationalism, ultranationalism, racism, oppression, censorship, violence, Nazism, Para militarism, right wing conservatism, radicalism, eugenics and the Holocaust. As Kevin Passmore suggests, Fascism is all these things and not these things, as it has a mercurial nature. In fact, "...fascism, as Ortega y Gasset says, is always `A' and not `A'." (p.11)"

From second review below and outlines well the book. http://www.amazon.com/Fascism-Very-Short-Introduction-Introductions/dp/0192801554/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1250616458&sr=1-1

Passmore is fair and on page 31 he gives his definition of Fascism. I should scan for you. Authoritarian conservatism and fascism are so close they are mostly indistinguishable.

"Ideology is a most execrable concept concealing all of the effectively operating social machines." Deleuze / Guattari


"Jonah Goldberg has to be one of the most idiotic revisionists of modern times. Any person even vaguely familiar with Fascism knows it is of the Right and not the left. I will grant that extremists seem to meet in a circle as in the end dictators dictate but if you can't tell the difference between political ideologies you should stay home."

http://www.alternet.org/story/72960/

"Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each..."

http://www.rense.com/general37/char.htm

Understanding ideology: http://www.cursor.org/stories/fascismii.php

More below.

http://contemporarycondition.blogspot.com/2010/06/what-was-fascism.html
http://contemporarycondition.blogspot.com/2011/09/aspirational-fascism.html
Limbaugh spells it out perfectly. Rush, Newspeak and Fascism: An exegesis (http://www.cursor.org/stories/fascismintroduction.php)

Quotes

"Liberalism is a disease of the mind that weakens and corrupts human beings." Adolf Hitler, 1939

"Universal education is the most corroding and disintegrating poison that liberalism has ever invented for its own destruction." Adolf Hitler

"Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . . . we need believing people." Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933

"Even today I am not ashamed to say that, overpowered by stormy enthusiasm, I fell down on my knees and thanked Heaven from an overflowing heart for granting me the good fortune of being permitted to live at this time." Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Vol. 1 Chapter 5

'Hubris' covers this bit of history. "Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing." Dwight D. Eisenhower

"As long as no nation, no state, feels obliged to give help and sympathy to these Bolshevist parasites who corrupt and destroy everything, we shall idolater them in work camps." Hitler

"If you think the United States could never elect an Adolf Hitler to power, note that David Duke would have become governor of Louisiana if it had just been up to the white voters in that state." Robert Altemeyer

"By ‘Fascism’ they mean, roughly speaking, something cruel, unscrupulous, arrogant, obscurantist, anti-liberal and anti-working-class. Except for the relatively small number of Fascist sympathizers, almost any English person would accept ‘bully’ as a synonym for ‘Fascist’. That is about as near to a definition as this much-abused word has come." Orwell

[Peter1469]

Completely off base when you try to tie the right wing, in the modern American political sense of the word, to fascism. I think it is a deliberate attempt to smear, and to dumb people down.

[Captain Obvious]

Completely off base when you try to tie the right wing, in the modern American political sense of the word, to fascism. I think it is a deliberate attempt to smear, and to dumb people down.

You sound surprised someone played this card. Did you really think Midcan't was going to leave a productive response?

:biglaugh:

[Captain Obvious]

I'm curious as to what each person on this forum thinks fascism is. There are those that think anything related to uniforms and authority are fascist. That the police and the military are fascist. Some define fascism as corporatism. Fascism has become a word for people to conflate everything they don't like into. A slur. "Leftists" of varying brands often refer to any competing system, philosophy or ideology as fascist. Some people consider Italian Fascism, German Nazism, and other national movements as related examples as fascism but some consider National Socialism, National Syndicalism, Greek Metaxism, Spanish Falangism, Latin Integralism as separate. Conservatives in the US often parrot Jonah Goldberg in stating that fascism and naziism are socialist ideologies that just reject internationalism, thus they're nationalist socialists. Stalinists argued that fascism was the last leg of capitalism reacting to its impending death.

I have my views, but I'd like to know others. Is every two-bit drug-smuggling dictator we propped up in Latin America, Africa and the Middle East a fascist? Are corporatists that want government/business/banking collusion fascists? Are traditionalists or "rightists" fascists? Was Stalin a fascist for reviving the Imperial Russian Army and reopening the Orthodox churches to fight the "Great Patriotic War"? Is the CIA fascist? Was FDR fascist? What is fascism in your words and try to give an example if you can.

Good luck with that, I've posted basically the same question. You'll get a couple of people cutting/pasting Wikipedia definitions, a bunch of people saying progressives or tea baggers are fascist and a small handful of people actually discussing the topic.

[Captain Obvious]

Fascism (little F) is a form of radical authoritarian nationalism. The government is tied to major corporations. But it is not "corporatist." In a corporatist government, corporations make government policy. In fascism corporations are used by government for the purpose of the State. Those who don't play ball cease to exist and their management are disappeared.

“All within the state, nothing outside the state, nothing against the state.” Benito Mussolini



Does the concept of fascism have an element of institutional elitism I guess to the extent that it as an institution typically strongly opposes other competing forms of government like communism for example?

[Peter1469]

Didn't you know, Hilter's main platform was lowering taxes, cutting government, and individual liberty. :shocked:

That is why the intellectuals on the left link fascism to the Tea Party(ies). :shocked:

[Chris]

iustitia, see Fascism is Real and Alive (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/31151-Fascism-is-Real-and-Alive?highlight=fascism) for longer explanation but the short of it is based on ohn T. Flynn’s 1944 As We Go Marching and can be summarized:

"According to Flynn, the fascist system is one:

In which the government acknowledges no restraint upon its powers—totalitarianism.
In which this unrestrained government is managed by a dictator—the leadership principle.
In which the government is organized to operate the capitalist system and enable it to function-under an immense bureaucracy.
In which the economic society is organized on the syndicalist model, that is by producing groups formed into craft and professional categories under supervision of the state.
In which the government and the syndicalist organizations operate the capitalist society on the planned, autarchial principle.
In which the government holds itself responsible to provide the nation with adequate purchasing power by public spending and borrowing.
In which militarism is used as a conscious mechanism of government spending, and
In which imperialism is included as a policy inevitably flowing from militarism as well as other elements of fascism."



I think that fairly accurate. The meaning has become watered down in modern usage, like so many other political terms.

[Mister D]

Fascism was an interwar European phenomenon that no longer exists except as a bogeyman.

[Chris]

Conservatives in the US often parrot Jonah Goldberg in the fascism and naziism are socialist ideologies that just reject internationalism, thus they're nationalist socialists.

I think many conservatives in their embrace of Goldberg get him wrong just as many liberals in their rejection do.

I don't think Goldberg's point was that fascism is socialism but that it arose from the failures of socialism. This is also Hayek's theme in The Road to Serfdom.

But that was a minor point in a book that documented the mutual admiration between FDR and each of Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin, and his adoption of their central planning policies.

[Mac-7]

I think many conservatives in their embrace of Goldberg get him wrong just as many liberals in their rejection do.

I don't think Goldberg's point was that fascism is socialism but that it arose from the failures of socialism. This is also Hayek's theme in The Road to Serfdom.

But that was a minor point in a book that documented the mutual admiration between FDR and each of Hitler, Mussolini and Stalin, and his adoption of their central planning policies.

Do you think every conservative follows Goldberg and get their opinions from him?

you are wrong too.

fascism and socialism are two sides of the same coin and arose side by side.

they are both dedicated to government as the center of the universe.

[Chris]

Do you think every conservative follows Goldberg and get their opinions from him?

you are wrong too.

fascism and socialism are two sides of the same coin and arose side by side.

they are both dedicated to government as the center of the universe.


Well, mac, I said "many" now, didn't I.

I am wrong? About what, how? Articulate, please.



fascism and socialism are two sides of the same coin and arose side by side.

No, fascism came much later than socialism. Socialism tends toward public ownership of property, fascism leaves it in the hands of private ownership, be that capitalists or syndicates, so long as they do the bidding of the state. But I agree, they both are forms of central planning.

[Mac-7]

Well, mac, I said "many" now, didn't I.

I am wrong? About what, how? Articulate, please.

i don't know any conservative who thinks so just because they heard Goldberg say it.





No, fascism came much later than socialism. Socialism tends toward public ownership of property, fascism leaves it in the hands of private ownership, be that capitalists or syndicates, so long as they do the bidding of the state. But I agree, they both are forms of central planning.


Uh, yeah.

No one said fascists and socialists were identical twins but only that they come from the same womb of big government.

[Chris]

i don't know any conservative who thinks so just because they heard Goldberg say it.







Uh, yeah.

No one said fascists and socialists were identical twins but only that they come from the same womb of big government.

Actually neither comes from the notion of big government, in fact quite the opposite, but just like democracy end up there.

[Mac-7]

Actually neither comes from the notion of big government, in fact quite the opposite, but just like democracy end up there.

You are not even close.

Fascists and socialists have goals that only a strong central government can achieve.

[iustitia]

You are not even close.

Fascists and socialists have goals that only a strong central government can achieve.

He's talking about historical origins and roots of ideology, not the ultimate result of their policies..

[kilgram]

Fascism are ideologies that have as basic component autocracy and nationalism or patriotism. The nation is the most important thing and people must serve to the nation. Fascism is an ideology that is based on the idea of the third way. Neither Socialism neither Capitalism. However, in the last moment fall closer to the last, because of its corporatavism.

There are differences of the different branches of the Fascism. I mean the Spanish Falangism, the Italian Fascism or the German Nazism. But they have in common what I said in the first part. The main difference is that for example the Spanish Falangism was pretty traditionalist and Catholic.

@Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) a question. In USA do you know the word Yellow or vertical syndicalism? Many times I've used those terms, but I don't know if they are known.

[Chris]

He's talking about historical origins and roots of ideology, not the ultimate result of their policies..

Exactly. Socialism is originally anarchistic. To say that's strong central government is a distortion.

[Chris]

Fascism are ideologies that have as basic component autocracy and nationalism or patriotism. The nation is the most important thing and people must serve to the nation. Fascism is an ideology that is based on the idea of the third way. Neither Socialism neither Capitalism. However, in the last moment fall closer to the last, because of its corporatavism.

There are differences of the different branches of the Fascism. I mean the Spanish Falangism, the Italian Fascism or the German Nazism. But they have in common what I said in the first part. The main difference is that for example the Spanish Falangism was pretty traditionalist and Catholic.

@Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) a question. In USA do you know the word Yellow or vertical syndicalism? Many times I've used those terms, but I don't know if they are known.

What I know of syndicalism comes from guerilla who promotes it.

[Mac-7]

He's talking about historical origins and roots of ideology, not the ultimate result of their policies..

I think the result is more important than hypothetical roots.

[Mac-7]

Fascism are ideologies that have as basic component autocracy and nationalism or patriotism. The nation is the most important thing and people must serve to the nation. Fascism is an ideology that is based on the idea of the third way. Neither Socialism neither Capitalism. However, in the last moment fall closer to the last, because of its corporatavism.

There are differences of the different branches of the Fascism. I mean the Spanish Falangism, the Italian Fascism or the German Nazism. But they have in common what I said in the first part. The main difference is that for example the Spanish Falangism was pretty traditionalist and Catholic.

@Chris (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=128) a question. In USA do you know the word Yellow or vertical syndicalism? Many times I've used those terms, but I don't know if they are known.

Ill bet you think socialism is a great idea.

[iustitia]

Ill bet you think socialism is a great idea.

Dude, who the fuck are you? You love the CIA but are gearing to bash someone else's potential ideology?

[kilgram]

What I know of syndicalism comes from guerilla who promotes it.
I promote syndicalism, too ;)

So, you don't know what is the meaning of vertical/yellow syndicates? That are the syndicates that Fascism defends... And I am going to explain it later, after you answer me if you know what they are.

[Chris]

I promote syndicalism, too ;)

So, you don't know what is the meaning of vertical/yellow syndicates? That are the syndicates that Fascism defends... And I am going to explain it later, after you answer me if you know what they are.

No, have not heard of difference. I imagine you're going to argue about hierarchy being coercive.

[Mac-7]

Dude, who the fuck are you? You love the CIA but are gearing to bash someone else's potential ideology?

It was just a guess.

[kilgram]

No, have heard of difference. I imagine you're going to argue about hierarchy being coercive.
No, the difference is that syndicates are unions of workers. Those are called vertical because they include employers and employees. So, the function of the syndicate is reduced to nothing.

[Captain Obvious]

Dude, who the fuck are you? You love the CIA but are gearing to bash someone else's potential ideology?

He's a zombie.

Anyone who disagrees with him on anything is a fascist/communist/liberal/progressive.

[Mac-7]

He's a zombie.

Anyone who disagrees with him on anything is a fascist/communist/liberal/progressive.

Not so.
some of you are pacifists or isolationists,

Others are 3rd party independents/libertarians who can't understand why the 5% who completely agree with you never get elected.

[Chris]

No, the difference is that syndicates are unions of workers. Those are called vertical because they include employers and employees. So, the function of the syndicate is reduced to nothing.

I take no issue with voluntary associations of any sort.

[kilgram]

I take no issue with voluntary associations of any sort.
They are not voluntary. We are talking about one of the foundations of the fascism.

For example, in Spain during Franco's regime every worker had to be member of the Yellow syndicate to be able to work.

[Chris]

They are not voluntary. We are talking about one of the foundations of the fascism.

For example, in Spain during Franco's regime every worker had to be member of the Yellow syndicate to be able to work.

Then by my statement I would be against them.

Guerilla talks about anarcho-syndicalism which would of necessity be voluntary.

[Chris]

I think the result is more important than hypothetical roots.

And yet you defend the results of democracy.

[kilgram]

Then by my statement I would be against them.

Guerilla talks about anarcho-syndicalism which would of necessity be voluntary.
Obviously but is absolutely different to the syndicalism of the Fascism.

I didn't know the term, in English I believe that would be Company union, however also can be find as yellow union:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Company_union