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Peter1469
10-08-2014, 05:50 PM
There is scientific evidence to suggest that life can continue after death, according to the largest ever medical study carried out on the subject. (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/life-after-death-largestever-study-provides-evidence-that-out-of-body-and-neardeath-experiences-may-actually-be-real-9780195.html)


A team based in the UK has spent the last four years seeking out cardiac arrest patients to analyse their experiences, and found that almost 40 per cent of survivors described having some form of “awareness” at a time when they were declared clinically dead.

Cool stuff.

Ngc1514
10-09-2014, 04:40 PM
Life after death or just a sloppy definition of "clinical death?" Obviously, those people were not dead or they wouldn't be available for interviews.

Mister D
10-09-2014, 07:41 PM
Life after death or just a sloppy definition of "clinical death?" Obviously, those people were not dead or they wouldn't be available for interviews.

Why don't you or Common Sense define the term for us and explain why the study is flawed?

Common Sense
10-09-2014, 07:46 PM
Why don't you or @Common Sense (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1085) define the term for us and explain why the study is flawed?

WTF??? What did I say?

Bob
10-09-2014, 07:47 PM
Some posters appear to like the idea of being completely dead when they pass away.

Some of us believe we will survive death in a transformed state.

Mister D
10-09-2014, 07:49 PM
WTF??? What did I say?

You applauded his comment. Knowing your skeptical position was I presumptuous in assuming you too see little value in the study?

Ngc1514
10-10-2014, 06:24 PM
Why don't you or @Common Sense (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1085) define the term for us and explain why the study is flawed?
Since people are alive after being "clinically" dead, there seems to be no exact definition of the term. Or do you think these people were resurrected like Lazarus and Jesus were supposedly lifted up from death?

i never said the study was flawed, but the question may not be meaningful because of the imprecision of the term "clinical" death. There is also the question whethet selection bias comes into play due to limiting the study to cardiac arrest patients. The study boils down to nothing more than unsupported anecdotal tales.

Captain Obvious
10-10-2014, 06:40 PM
Cool stuff.

My dumbass hunch...

The brain continues to function after clinical death to a degree and records... something.

Cigar
10-10-2014, 07:16 PM
You wouldn't want to know me ... live after death ... I'll probably be pissed

Peter1469
10-10-2014, 07:32 PM
My dumbass hunch...

The brain continues to function after clinical death to a degree and records... something.

Describing the scene from the PoV of being in the corner far from the body....

Mister D
10-10-2014, 08:20 PM
Since people are alive after being "clinically" dead, there seems to be no exact definition of the term. Or do you think these people were resurrected like Lazarus and Jesus were supposedly lifted up from death?

i never said the study was flawed, but the question may not be meaningful because of the imprecision of the term "clinical" death. There is also the question whethet selection bias comes into play due to limiting the study to cardiac arrest patients. The study boils down to nothing more than unsupported anecdotal tales.

Was that a serious critique? You're not really dead until you're really dead? So you won't define the term. OK.

Your critique boils down to "I just don't believe it". Did you read the article? Does selection bias play a part? Let us know how. How can you possibly have empirical evidence for what people may or may not experience out of body? I get it. You're a skeptic. Cool. Mere incredulity is just kind of lame though. Are the researchers quacks? If so, why? Why do they take this seriously?

Alyosha
10-11-2014, 10:53 AM
Since people are alive after being "clinically" dead, there seems to be no exact definition of the term. Or do you think these people were resurrected like Lazarus and Jesus were supposedly lifted up from death?

Why not? How do you know that our ability to use extra-normal energy has not been diluted over time?

Science and technology is just a mechanism, it is not the only one. All matter is energy.




i never said the study was flawed, but the question may not be meaningful because of the imprecision of the term "clinical" death. There is also the question whethet selection bias comes into play due to limiting the study to cardiac arrest patients. The study boils down to nothing more than unsupported anecdotal tales.

Did you read the study or just the article about the study? Just curious.

Refugee
10-11-2014, 11:13 PM
At the moment it remains a belief, so it's not provable like a science. Once and not too long ago people were killed or judged mad for stating that the world was round . . . and as Alyosha says, if all energy is matter, where does it go to when we die? I find the subject fascinating.

Ngc1514
10-13-2014, 01:25 PM
Was that a serious critique? You're not really dead until you're really dead? So you won't define the term. OK.

Your critique boils down to "I just don't believe it". Did you read the article? Does selection bias play a part? Let us know how. How can you possibly have empirical evidence for what people may or may not experience out of body? I get it. You're a skeptic. Cool. Mere incredulity is just kind of lame though. Are the researchers quacks? If so, why? Why do they take this seriously?

Of course you're not really dead until you're dead. Obviously these "clinically" dead people were not really dead. I'm glad we agree on that. Selection bias comes into play by ONLY selecting one sample of medical condition.

"How can you possibly have empirical evidence for what people may or may not experience out of body?" Exactly. We agree that these were unsupported anecdotal tales since objective, empirical evidence is not possible.

Unfortunately the really interesting question was not addressed by the study - why only 40%? But, to answer that question, a scientific hypothesis needs to be formulated to explain the observations.

Mister D
10-13-2014, 01:27 PM
Of course you're not really dead until you're dead. Obviously these "clinically" dead people were not really dead. I'm glad we agree on that. Selection bias comes into play by ONLY selecting one sample of medical condition.

lol Thank you for your contribution, Eric.

Ngc1514
10-13-2014, 01:38 PM
Why not? How do you know that our ability to use extra-normal energy has not been diluted over time?

Science and technology is just a mechanism, it is not the only one. All matter is energy.



Did you read the study or just the article about the study? Just curious.

I am unfamiliar with this "extra-normal energy." Would you be kind enough to explain it to me and how one goes about measuring it.

Yes, I read the study. Resuscitation apparently makes some their papers available to the public.

Interestingly, Parnia was also an author in a paper published in 2002 - "Near death experiences in cardiac arrest: visions of a dying brain or visions of a new science of consciousness." Since he is still trying to quantify the number of these experiences more than 12 years later, it doesn't look like he's made much progress in his work. He is still counting beans rather than figuring out where the beans come from. My vote is for the visions of a dying brain, but that's just the skeptic in me.

Mister D
10-13-2014, 01:40 PM
I am unfamiliar with this "extra-normal energy." Would you be kind enough to explain it to me and how one goes about measuring it.

Yes, I read the study. Resuscitation apparently makes some their papers available to the public.

Interestingly, Parnia was also an author in a paper published in 2002 - "Near death experiences in cardiac arrest: visions of a dying brain or visions of a new science of consciousness." Since he is still trying to quantify the number of these experiences more than 12 years later, it doesn't look like he's made much progress in his work. He is still counting beans rather than figuring out where the beans come from. My vote is for the visions of a dying brain, but that's just the skeptic in me.


Well, yes. Yes, it is. :smiley:

Peter1469
10-13-2014, 02:01 PM
lol Thank you for your contribution, Eric.

Nic is no skeptic. He knows he is right, damn-it.

Polecat
10-13-2014, 02:23 PM
Life in all its forms here on earth is fascinating. Biological machines that operate just like mechanical devices but in a nature that is way beyond our ability to duplicate. I have no trouble believing there is a being of another dimension that occupies this machine.

Peter1469
10-13-2014, 02:38 PM
Energy can't be destroyed....

Polecat
10-13-2014, 02:46 PM
Energy can't be destroyed....

Or created?

Peter1469
10-13-2014, 03:30 PM
Or created?


That too. It is science.

Ngc1514
10-13-2014, 04:12 PM
Energy can't be destroyed....

And...?

Polecat
10-13-2014, 04:13 PM
And...?

Glad you asked Peter. I don't know the answer.

Ngc1514
10-13-2014, 04:20 PM
That too. It is science.

But you agree it can change forms, right? The source of energy for most forms of life is ATP - Adenosine triphosphate - which is "burned" through various chemical pathways to power the body. The end result is the average human is radiating about 100 watts in the form of heat. When we die this energy liberating chemical process stops, the body cools as it radiates the residual heat and, finally, there is no more energy in the body as it assumes room temperature.

Ngc1514
10-13-2014, 04:39 PM
At the moment it remains a belief, so it's not provable like a science. Once and not too long ago people were killed or judged mad for stating that the world was round . . . and as Alyosha says, if all energy is matter, where does it go to when we die? I find the subject fascinating.
The shape and size of the earth has been known since Eratosthenes measured it around 200 BCE. The argument against Columbus' plan to reach the Far East by sailing west was not that he would fall off the edge, but his small ships were unable to carry sufficient supplies for the trip. Rather than accepting Erathosthenes' measurement he rejected it for the much smaller estimate made by Ptolemy in his "Geography" written in the 2nd century CE. Erathosthenes was right, Ptolemy was wrong and, but for the New World getting in his way, Columbus and his men would have died.

All energy is NOT matter. If all energy was matter, what is powering your computer? A huge amount of energy can create a tiny piece of matter and a tiny bit of matter can create a huge amount of energy. But neither process is easy and, in every day life, highly inefficient. As I said in a previous post, the energy production of the body stops at death and the remaining energy from that chemical process is radiated as heat until the body assumes ambient temperature.

Peter1469
10-13-2014, 05:12 PM
But you agree it can change forms, right? The source of energy for most forms of life is ATP - Adenosine triphosphate - which is "burned" through various chemical pathways to power the body. The end result is the average human is radiating about 100 watts in the form of heat. When we die this energy liberating chemical process stops, the body cools as it radiates the residual heat and, finally, there is no more energy in the body as it assumes room temperature.


You are a glass half empty sort of guy....

Ngc1514
10-13-2014, 06:42 PM
You are a glass half empty sort of guy....

Not at all. There are multitudes of glasses I see as empty, dry and dusty. Religion is one and the "paranormal" is another. Velikovsky and flying saucers are others that come to mind. A healthy dose of skepticism is not a bad thing.

Peter1469
10-13-2014, 08:15 PM
Not at all. There are multitudes of glasses I see as empty, dry and dusty. Religion is one and the "paranormal" is another. Velikovsky and flying saucers are others that come to mind. A healthy dose of skepticism is not a bad thing.

I am all for skepticism.

I rarely see it. Most have their minds made up one way or the other.

Bob
10-13-2014, 08:20 PM
Since people are alive after being "clinically" dead, there seems to be no exact definition of the term. Or do you think these people were resurrected like Lazarus and Jesus were supposedly lifted up from death?

i never said the study was flawed, but the question may not be meaningful because of the imprecision of the term "clinical" death. There is also the question whethet selection bias comes into play due to limiting the study to cardiac arrest patients. The study boils down to nothing more than unsupported anecdotal tales.

What about Betty's story of being dead for a few hours then coming back to life?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SuBRNGAqOM

Bob
10-13-2014, 08:23 PM
http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Ngc1514 http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=794846#post794846)
Not at all. There are multitudes of glasses I see as empty, dry and dusty. Religion is one and the "paranormal" is another. Velikovsky and flying saucers are others that come to mind. A healthy dose of skepticism is not a bad thing.


I am all for skepticism.

I rarely see it. Most have their minds made up one way or the other.

If he actually was skeptical, he would be skeptical of his own belief.

I urge all of you to watch the video I posted in the post above this post where Betty Eadie explains things to us all.

Bob
10-13-2014, 08:41 PM
As I said in a previous post, the energy production of the body stops at death and the remaining energy from that chemical process is radiated as heat until the body assumes ambient temperature.

Stop to ponder that miracle you spoke of. The mechanics of life as you explained. Think that just happened by some wild coincidence? You are unwittingly giving a good reason to believe in GOD.

Things like that complex operation creating muscle movement and heat did not just happen one cold dark night. It was designed.

Betty Eadie explains why she survived a longer term death. Watch her on the you tube I provided.

del
10-13-2014, 08:50 PM
jesus wept

Bob
10-13-2014, 08:54 PM
Jesus Wept? What is that all about? We know he wept when he prayed in the Garden. I would think he also wept on the cross.

Animal Mother
10-13-2014, 08:55 PM
He also weeps at the assholes in this thread. That's what he told me anyway when we were drinking beer.

Peter1469
10-13-2014, 08:56 PM
He also weeps at the assholes in this thread. That's what he told me anyway when we were drinking beer.

I call bull shit. Jesus is a wine guy.

Just say'in.

Animal Mother
10-13-2014, 09:09 PM
I call bull shit. Jesus is a wine guy.

Just say'in.

I'm talking about the 0311 who lives down the street. Jesus Martinez.

Peter1469
10-13-2014, 09:10 PM
I'm talking about the 0311 who lives down the street. Jesus Martinez.

That dude probably isn't the best to ask for a wine recommendation.

Ngc1514
10-13-2014, 09:15 PM
What about Betty's story of being dead for a few hours then coming back to life?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SuBRNGAqOM

Do you believe the story?

Ngc1514
10-13-2014, 09:20 PM
If he actually was skeptical, he would be skeptical of his own belief.

I urge all of you to watch the video I posted in the post above this post where Betty Eadie explains things to us all.
Which belief should I be skeptical about?

Bob
10-13-2014, 09:20 PM
Do you believe the story?

I do.

Ngc1514
10-13-2014, 09:27 PM
Stop to ponder that miracle you spoke of. The mechanics of life as you explained. Think that just happened by some wild coincidence? You are unwittingly giving a good reason to believe in GOD.

Things like that complex operation creating muscle movement and heat did not just happen one cold dark night. It was designed.

Betty Eadie explains why she survived a longer term death. Watch her on the you tube I provided.
The mechanics of life are chemistry. The intelligent design argument claiming irreducible complexity was shot down in Kitzmiller v Dover. No one said it just happened. It was a multi-billion year process of selection and evolution. Evolution is a proven fact.

Ngc1514
10-13-2014, 09:27 PM
I do.
Why?

Ngc1514
10-13-2014, 09:35 PM
I do.
One question before I watch the video: who pronounced Betty dead?

Animal Mother
10-13-2014, 09:45 PM
One question before I watch the video: who pronounced Betty dead?

Probably her doctor. Maybe Bob. Who can ever really know these things?

del
10-13-2014, 09:55 PM
Probably her doctor. Maybe Bob. Who can ever really know these things?

i'm going with bob

Dark Mistress
10-13-2014, 10:43 PM
There is a fine line between mortal death and the next life. Okay, this is all what I think, so bear with the matter-of-fact tone. I believe it to be more than belief, but it is something that there is not the tangible evidence the science seekers desire. I am a chemistry/science girl. I do not have the knowledge or brains to back this up with data, but I don't believe we have quite stumbled across the tie into science yet. I believe it all ties in together but our level of intelligence and discovery only proves that there will always be more for us to discover. We haven't figured it all out yet. Heaven knows I feel like quite the academic dummy since I have not taken any higher education in years. I dabble in pre-k, kindergarten and 1st grade studies at the moment....

Many who have experience a NDE have had experiences like the video Bob posted. I just read a book on such an individual and what I always find is that there are many things that all tie together with these different stories. I witnessed my grandmother pass out of this world into the next. There are things we saw, heard and felt that you can tell people, but they really cannot and will never understand until they experience it themselves. I will say this that when an individual dies and when you go to there funeral and see them in their casket they may look like the person you knew, but there is something missing. In fact, I have difficulty with viewings for this reason. That body's lack of a spirit kind of freaks me out, but then again I feel I have been to more funerals than I would like to. I could see the moment the "spirit" left my grandmother's body. It is nothing like you would view on a film where all of a sudden the breathing stops and the body goes lifeless, it was different. I used to work in a nursing home and death was present many a time in many a room, but there was a something, call it a feeling, in those rooms when those individuals were passing out of this world that could not be ignored. Not for me anyways.

Bob
10-14-2014, 12:34 PM
http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=795013#post795013)
Stop to ponder that miracle you spoke of. The mechanics of life as you explained. Think that just happened by some wild coincidence? You are unwittingly giving a good reason to believe in GOD.

Things like that complex operation creating muscle movement and heat did not just happen one cold dark night. It was designed.

Betty Eadie explains why she survived a longer term death. Watch her on the you tube I provided.


The mechanics of life are chemistry. The intelligent design argument claiming irreducible complexity was shot down in Kitzmiller v Dover. No one said it just happened. It was a multi-billion year process of selection and evolution. Evolution is a proven fact.

That is correct. But apparently you do not see the miracle of life. You may enjoy a good book, THE CRADLE OF LIFE, by Professor Schopf.

Nobody is disputing evolution. I speak of abiogenesis. That is very much in dispute. The very miracle where elements of unique properties, such as to produce the reaction you named, are miracles. Did you recall your formula for muscle movement? The foundation of animal life is contained in the elements, Oxygen, Nitrogen, Phosphorus, Sulfur, Hydrogen and Carbon.

Remove even one and life as we know it never existed.

http://www.phschool.com/science/biology_place/biocoach/biokit/chnops.html

Concept 1: CHNOPS: The Six Most Abundant Elements of Life

Most biological molecules are made from covalent combinations of six important elements, whose chemical symbols are CHNOPS.

Biological molecules, or biomolecules, are built by joining atoms through covalent bonds.

Although more than 25 types of elements can be found in biomolecules, six elements are most common. These are called the CHNOPS elements; the letters stand for the chemical abbreviations of carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen, oxygen, phosphorus, and sulfur.

http://www.phschool.com/science/biology_place/biocoach/images/biokit/chnops.gif
http://www.phschool.com/science/biology_place/biocoach/images/main/back_to_intro_btn.gif (http://www.phschool.com/science/biology_place/biocoach/biokit/intro.html)http://www.phschool.com/science/biology_place/images/spacer.gifhttp://www.phschool.com/science/biology_place/biocoach/images/main/next_concept_btn.gif (http://www.phschool.com/science/biology_place/biocoach/biokit/valence.html)

Bob
10-14-2014, 12:54 PM
There is a fine line between mortal death and the next life. Okay, this is all what I think, so bear with the matter-of-fact tone. I believe it to be more than belief, but it is something that there is not the tangible evidence the science seekers desire. I am a chemistry/science girl. I do not have the knowledge or brains to back this up with data, but I don't believe we have quite stumbled across the tie into science yet. I believe it all ties in together but our level of intelligence and discovery only proves that there will always be more for us to discover. We haven't figured it all out yet. Heaven knows I feel like quite the academic dummy since I have not taken any higher education in years. I dabble in pre-k, kindergarten and 1st grade studies at the moment....

Many who have experience a NDE have had experiences like the video @Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013) posted. I just read a book on such an individual and what I always find is that there are many things that all tie together with these different stories. I witnessed my grandmother pass out of this world into the next. There are things we saw, heard and felt that you can tell people, but they really cannot and will never understand until they experience it themselves. I will say this that when an individual dies and when you go to there funeral and see them in their casket they may look like the person you knew, but there is something missing. In fact, I have difficulty with viewings for this reason. That body's lack of a spirit kind of freaks me out, but then again I feel I have been to more funerals than I would like to. I could see the moment the "spirit" left my grandmother's body. It is nothing like you would view on a film where all of a sudden the breathing stops and the body goes lifeless, it was different. I used to work in a nursing home and death was present many a time in many a room, but there was a something, call it a feeling, in those rooms when those individuals were passing out of this world that could not be ignored. Not for me anyways.

Some are so fixated on there is no GOD that they refuse to listen to such stories and call them fairy tales.

I keep an open mind and do not know how to dismiss Betty Eadie and until i learn otherwise, I believe her story.

Bob
10-14-2014, 01:02 PM
One question before I watch the video: who pronounced Betty dead?
Ngc1514 Bettie was recovering from surgery and her doctors pronounced her dead. They were completely shocked when she recovered a few hours after the pronouncing of death.

If you want to learn more, watch her video. All of it. I gave part 1. But there are 4 parts I believe.

Ngc1514
10-14-2014, 01:06 PM
The important part of your post was "life as we know it..." You are falling back on the fine tuning argument. It reduces to "if x was just a little different, life as we know it would not exist." X can be any of a number of different physical or chemical properties. It's an argument that boils down to "Life would not exist if life could not exist." Not a very useful observation.

The whole issue of fine tuning disappears if modern cosmological hypotheses about an infinite number of universes becomes testable and verified. Searches are underway for possible signs of universe interactions in the cosmic microwave background radiation.

You might try Stenger's "The Fallacy of Fine Tuning."

I'm still waiting for an answer of who pronounced Betty dead.

Bob
10-14-2014, 01:10 PM
Why?
Ngc1514

Why I believe Betty Eadie? Why would I believe you. Why believe del. Why believe Obama.

All good questions. It is an accumulation of seeing her on TV tell the entire story. Then to make certain, I bought her book. I like books to use as reference. When I bought her book, the internet was not populated with all kinds of evidence.

Betty was not religious. Betty felt harmed by religion as a growing up girl. She was abused by Nuns. She was not a member of a church based on attendance. She was raised a Catholic but It is not clear that mattered.

Bob
10-14-2014, 01:13 PM
The important part of your post was "life as we know it..." You are falling back on the fine tuning argument. It reduces to "if x was just a little different, life as we know it would not exist." X can be any of a number of different physical or chemical properties. It's an argument that boils down to "Life would not exist if life could not exist." Not a very useful observation.

The whole issue of fine tuning disappears if modern cosmological hypotheses about an infinite number of universes becomes testable and verified. Searches are underway for possible signs of universe interactions in the cosmic microwave background radiation.

You might try Stenger's "The Fallacy of Fine Tuning."

I'm still waiting for an answer of who pronounced Betty dead.

I only added that as a condition of life as WE know it. I am not ruling out some life that deviates from my commentary that was backed up by science. I offered you a fine book on abiogenesis. I offered you something off the internet.

I did reply to why. Ngc1514

Ngc1514
10-14-2014, 01:20 PM
"Her doctors" is a bit general. I am curious about who that doctor might have been and whether he or she corroborates Betty's story. From what I've read, Betty was supposedly dead for 5 hours and there were no corroborating witnesses. I find that highly improbable.

Bob
10-14-2014, 01:40 PM
I have asked my library to purchase the Fallacy of Fine tuning.

Codename Section
10-14-2014, 01:52 PM
I had an NDE in Afghanistan. I could tell you what people were doing 50 yards away from my body. Then I felt like something was dragging me back.

Dark Mistress
10-14-2014, 01:57 PM
I had an NDE in Afghanistan. I could tell you what people were doing 50 yards away from my body. Then I felt like something was dragging me back.

Perhaps your mission in this life is not yet finished? Codename Section

Codename Section
10-14-2014, 01:58 PM
Maybe not. :)

Dark Mistress
10-14-2014, 01:59 PM
Maybe not. :)

I think certainly not. But that's just me :wink:

Ngc1514
10-15-2014, 06:30 PM
I only added that as a condition of life as WE know it. I am not ruling out some life that deviates from my commentary that was backed up by science. I offered you a fine book on abiogenesis. I offered you something off the internet.I did reply to why. @Ngc1514 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1204)Abiogenesis is an interesting topic but ultimately fruitless as a means of determining how we came about. Unless we build a time machine and go back to the moment a molecule learns the trick of self-replication - we will never know how life started on this planet. We could watch the process on other planets and create life in hundreds of labs, but we could never be sure what we were watching was the process that kick started biology on the earth.

I did put Schopf's book on my reading list and thanks for the recommendation. I'll read Eadie's book after we join the library.