Obama Cheers Capture of Top Kony Commander.....

[MMC]

The White House on Monday hailed the capture of one of African warlord Joseph Kony's top commanders, amid hopes that the arrest could be a big step on the road to catching the infamous Lord's Resistance Army (LRA) leader himself.

Last year, Obama ordered 100 elite American troops to help a multinational force capture Kony, whose global notoriety exploded earlier this year with the mega-viral video "Kony 2012." "Ugandan and other regional forces continue to pursue the LRA and keep its leadership on the run," Carney said. "The United States joins regional governments and the African Union in calling on abductees and remaining members of the LRA to depart the ranks of the LRA and peacefully surrender. Support is available to help those who defect and peacefully surrender to return to their home communities and build a new life."

The Associated Press reported earlier that Acellam was caught Saturday after a brief firefight near the Congo-Central African Republic border (http://yhoo.it/JCuGPd).....snip~

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-cheers-capture-top-kony-commander-223738095.html

Although Acellam is not one of the LRA commanders indicted along with Kony in 2005 by the International Criminal Court, Ugandan officials say he was Kony's top military strategist.

Lt. Col. Abdul Rugumayo said Sunday that Caesar Acellam was captured Saturday with two other rebel fighters.

Rugumayo said they were in a group of about 30 LRA rebels. The others escaped.

http://news.yahoo.com/army-official-top-joseph-kony-commander-captured-ugandan-134253458.html;_ylt=A2KJjandf7FPLVgA6oLQtDMD

[RollingWave]

can't say that anyone would feel sorry to see the LRA go down... the operation in the region by the US seems very limited in scale too, so this seesms like a decent excersice..

[MMC]

I really havent followed so much of the story with this guy. Evidently he is drawing the attention of quite a few governments around him. I know of the atrocities with women that he has committed or I should say his followers. But is he going after Muslims in his religious quest?

[RollingWave]

The LRA claims to be a christian militia group so they do target muslim quite a bit though hardly exclusively. at the end of the day you can essentially consider them the biggest group of bandits / mauraders in the region. which is quiet an accomplishmetn given the "competition" they have in that region so to speak....

[MMC]

Still isn't the real reason that they are going after him is due to the fact that he is Specifically Targets Muslims communities. Other than being a Bandit and taking whatever they need from those around them. You would think Muslims of that extreme would be looking for him to.

[Peter1469]

Muslims in Darfur slaughtered Christians for decades and almost no peep from the West or the MSM.

[Peter1469]

And when they did discuss it they didn't bring religion up. Ethnic tensions.

[Mister D]

But you can bet if it were the other way around...:wink:

[Peter1469]

right

[MMC]

So because this guy made a stand against Muslims and brought a little payback to Muslims. Now the World wants to hunt him down and blame it on ethnic tensions. Not that I condone what his people do to women and children. But you would think the MSM would point out all truths and quit the BS of painting Muslims with the Woe is me Crap.

[waltky]

Congo rebels steppin' over the line...
:huh:
UN threatens sanctions against DR Congo rebels
Sun, Oct 21, 2012 - The UN Security Council has announced plans to impose sanctions against leaders of the M23 rebel movement for its attacks on civilians in eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo (DR Congo).


In what appeared to be a rebuke to neighboring Rwanda, it insisted on an end to outside backing for the movement. A recent UN report accused Rwandan Minister of Defense General James Kabarebe of being the de facto commander of the M23 rebels in eastern DR Congo.

Friday’s Security Council statement called on M23 and other armed groups in the chronically unstable, but resource-rich region, including the Rwandan army, to “immediately cease all forms of violence and other destabilizing activities.” “The Security Council expresses its intention to apply targeted sanctions against the leadership of the M23 and those acting in violation of the sanctions regime and the arms embargo,” it said.

It expressed “deep concern” that M23 was still receiving support from neighboring countries. “The Security Council demands that any and all outside support to the M23, as well as other armed groups, cease immediately,” the statement said. The council also called on all states in the region to condemn the M23 rebels and to work with the Kinshasa authorities to disarm all armed groups in the region. UN investigators accuse both Rwanda and Uganda, which border eastern DR Congo, of arming and supporting the M23 rebels. Rwanda has repeatedly denied accusations that it backs the fighters.

The M23 rebel force is made up of former fighters in the National Congress for the Defense of the People (CNDP), an ethnic Tutsi rebel movement. The force emerged after an unsuccessful attempt to integrate CNDP fighters into the Congolese army under a 2009 peace deal. The Security Council statement came a day after the UN General Assembly elected Rwanda as a non-permanent member of the Security Council. It begins its two-year mandate in January. It follows an attack on Tuesday in which rebel fighters in eastern DR Congo wounded six Indian troops with MONUSCO, the UN mission there, and their interpreter.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2012/10/21/2003545739

[Peter1469]

Welcome.

Thanks for the article. If the rebel movement is under control of another nation are they really a rebel movement? Sounds like an international armed conflict governed by Common Article 2 of the Geneva Conventions as opposed to Common Article 3 should apply.

[Canadianeye]

Congo rebels steppin' over the line...
:huh:
UN threatens sanctions against DR Congo rebels
Sun, Oct 21, 2012 - The UN Security Council has announced plans to impose sanctions against leaders of the M23 rebel movement for its attacks on civilians in eastern Democratic Republic of the Congo (DR Congo).

UN Team Obama beefing up debate material I see. Seems to a lot of that going on in the last couple of days.

[shaarona]

Muslims in Darfur slaughtered Christians for decades and almost no peep from the West or the MSM.

Everyone in Darfur is Muslim.

[shaarona]

Although the conflict has also been framed as a battle between Arabs and black Africans, everyone in Darfur appears dark-skinned, at least by the usual American standards. The true division in Darfur is between ethnic groups, split between herders and farmers. Each tribe gives itself the label of "African" or "Arab" based on what language its members speak and whether they work the soil or herd livestock. Also, if they attain a certain level of wealth, they call themselves Arab.

Sudan melds African and Arab identities. As Arabs began to dominate the government in the past century and gave jobs to members of Arab tribes, being Arab became a political advantage; some tribes adopted that label regardless of their ethnic affiliation. More recently, rebels have described themselves as Africans fighting an Arab government. Ethnic slurs used by both sides in recent atrocities have riven communities that once lived together and intermarried.

"Black Americans who come to Darfur always say, 'So where are the Arabs? Why do all these people look black?' " said Mahjoub Mohamed Saleh, editor of Sudan's independent Al-Ayam newspaper. "The bottom line is that tribes have intermarried forever in Darfur. Men even have one so-called Arab wife and one so-called African. Tribes started labeling themselves this way several decades ago for political reasons. Who knows what the real bloodlines are in Darfur?"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/21/AR2006042101752.html

[Peter1469]

Everyone in Darfur is Muslim.

Tell that to the Christians in Darfur- better hurry, soon you may be right.

http://www.darfurchristianaction.org/

[shaarona]

Tell that to the Christians in Darfur- better hurry, soon you may be right.

http://www.darfurchristianaction.org/

Juba is in southern Sudan where there are Christians.. but there are no Christians in Darfur..

And its not a religious conflict or a 'racial' one.. Its a water war between farmers and herders.

[Peter1469]

Juba is in southern Sudan where there are Christians.. but there are no Christians in Darfur..

And its not a religious conflict or a 'racial' one.. Its a water war between farmers and herders.

That is what the MSM and the UN want us to believe. It is false. Muslims are slaughtering Christians. http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0714/p09s02-coop.html

[shaarona]

That is what the MSM and the UN want us to believe. It is false. Muslims are slaughtering Christians. http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0714/p09s02-coop.html

Did you read your link?

The blacks in the south either hew to their ancestral traditional African religions or have converted to Christianity. The fact that black Africans in Darfur are exclusively Muslim has not stopped the Arab Janjaweed militias and the government from exterminating them.

Everybody in Darfur is black and Muslim... They have intermarried with Arabs for a thousand years.

If you have livestock, you call yourself Arab.. If you farm, you call yourself African... and their brand of Islam is rife with sorcery, magic and all manner of animist innovations.

Yes.. its about water and competition for resources like available pasture. You do realize that the Saudis alone have drilled over 90 water wells and built 14 clinics. Other GCC countries and some European groups are doing the same.. Darfur is HUGE.

Now there is new competition for resources ... China has conducted oil and gas exploration in the Darfur.. and we want to keep them out.

[Mister D]

Did you read your link?

The blacks in the south either hew to their ancestral traditional African religions or have converted to Christianity. The fact that black Africans in Darfur are exclusively Muslim has not stopped the Arab Janjaweed militias and the government from exterminating them.

Everybody in Darfur is black and Muslim... They have intermarried with Arabs for a thousand years.

If you have livestock, you call yourself Arab.. If you farm, you call yourself African... and their brand of Islam is rife with sorcery, magic and all manner of animist innovations.

Yes.. its about water and competition for resources like available pasture. You do realize that the Saudis alone have drilled over 90 water wells and built 14 clinics. Other GCC countries and some European groups are doing the same.. Darfur is HUGE.

Now there is new competition for resources ... China has conducted oil and gas exploration in the Darfur.. and we want to keep them out.

Race - not religion - is the fundamental fault line in Sudan, though religion has certainly added fuel to the fire in the south. Indeed, since independence from the British in 1956, the demon of Sudan has been race. The Arab north, except for brief periods when token Africans were included in government, has exclusively held political and military power. To protest political exclusion, military repression, enslavement, and economic exploitation, Africans in the south rose against the state several years after independence.

[shaarona]

Race - not religion - is the fundamental fault line in Sudan, though religion has certainly added fuel to the fire in the south. Indeed, since independence from the British in 1956, the demon of Sudan has been race. The Arab north, except for brief periods when token Africans were included in government, has exclusively held political and military power. To protest political exclusion, military repression, enslavement, and economic exploitation, Africans in the south rose against the state several years after independence.

The discussion is about Darfur.. not Sudan.

South Sudan is both animist and Christian.. with 67 languages and tribes who have made their living for a thousand years by raiding each other for livestock and wives.

They have also been subject to raids by Christian Marxists like John Garang who was famous for kidnapping Nuer and Dinka children...

You remember John Garang.. Dinka turned Christian and trained at Fort Bragg???

[Mister D]

The discussion is about Darfur.. not Sudan.

South Sudan is both animist and Christian.. with 67 languages and tribes who have made their living for a thousand years by raiding each other for livestock and wives.

They have also been subject to raids by Christian Marxists like John Garang who was famous for kidnapping Nuer and Dinka children...

You remember John Garang.. Dinka turned Christian and trained at Fort Bragg???


Darfur is in Sudan. Racist Arab Muslims are killing black Christians and animists. You seem to have a hard time accepting how much Arabs dislike blacks.

[shaarona]

Darfur is in Sudan. Racist Arab Muslims are killing black Christians and animists. You seem to have a hard time accepting how much Arabs dislike blacks.

There are no Christians in Darfur.. Everyone is black and Muslim. The distinction which you are trying to make does not exist. If you have livestock you call yourself "Arab"...

Some men have one wife who is African and another who is Arab.. What they call themselves depends on whether they have livestock or farm.

Arabs don't hate blacks at all. Saudi Arabia has been providing free rice to Sudan since the 1970s... and has drilled 90 water wells and built 14 clinics in Darfur.

[Mister D]

There are no Christians in Darfur.. Everyone is black and Muslim. The distinction which you are trying to make does not exist. If you have livestock you call yourself "Arab"...

Some men have one wife who is African and another who is Arab.. What they call themselves depends on whether they have livestock or farm.

Arabs don't hate blacks at all. Saudi Arabia has been providing free rice to Sudan since the 1970s... and has drilled 90 water wells and built 14 clinics in Darfur.

Sigh...

Again, Arab Muslims are attacking black Christians and animists in the Sudan. You taled about reading Peter's link but it's clear you skipped over what you didn't want to hear. There is a great deal of racism in the Arab Muslim world (and there always has been) which kind of makes the Nation of Islam look silly. :afro: I'm sorry if that disturbs you but reality sometimes will.

[shaarona]

Sigh...

Again, Arab Muslims are attacking black Christians and animists in the Sudan. You taled about reading Peter's link but it's clear you skipped over what you didn't want to hear. There is a great deal of racism in the Arab Muslim world (and there always has been) which kind of makes the Nation of Islam look silly. :afro: I'm sorry if that disturbs you but reality sometimes will.

Nation of Islam is Farrakhan.. and he has invented his own religion that is definitely racist.. but, we are talking about Sudan.. which cannot be understood by "scanning" the text.

Arabs and Africans in Sudan have been trading and intermarrying for a thousand years before Islam.

The South is well watered.. the north is arid.

The north has schools, roads, jobs and order.. that's why many Christians from the south move there.. The south has been subject to violent Christian gangs like the LRA and SPLA for two decades or more. Read about the "Lost Boys".. The north sends in soldiers to stop the violence and they always made things worse.

Darfur is another matter altogether..

Darfur is not about religious conflict or "Race"... its about water and pasture. Droughts and increased desertification in the north have caused the herder tribes to migrate earlier every year further south seeking water and pasture for their herds.. which leads to conflict with the farmer tribes.

No.. Sudan cannot be understood in a soundbite.

[Mister D]

Nation of Islam is Farrakhan.. and he has invented his own religion that is definitely racist.. but, we are talking about Sudan.. which cannot be understood by "scanning" the text.

Arabs and Africans in Sudan have been trading and intermarrying for a thousand years before Islam.

The South is well watered.. the north is arid.

The north has schools, roads, jobs and order.. that's why many Christians from the south move there.. The south has been subject to violent Christian gangs like the LRA and SPLA for two decades or more. Read about the "Lost Boys".. The north sends in soldiers to stop the violence and they always made things worse.

Darfur is another matter altogether..

Darfur is not about religious conflict or "Race"... its about water and pasture. Droughts and increased desertification in the north have caused the herder tribes to migrate earlier every year further south seeking water and pasture for their herds.. which leads to conflict with the farmer tribes.

No.. Sudan cannot be understood in a soundbite.

So don't scan the text. lol

That bit about the romance between Arabs and blacks is nice but right now there is a genocide occurring. Why do you wish to sweep this violence under the carpet? Why are you an apologist?

Again, Darfur is in the Sudan. There is a great deal of violence in the Sudan and the Arab controlled governement is at least partly (some say solely) responsible. As for water and pasture, do you really think there would be this much violence if these groups were the same? Nonsense.

[shaarona]

This is about the unintended consequences of disarming one animist tribe and allowing them to be slaughtered by another.

Guns of Sudan

For years the mantra of the UN’s disarmament bureaucracy has been that fewer guns means more safety — but UN gun confiscation, Sudanese style, is a deadly disaster for human rights. For example, in 2006, at least sixteen hundred people died in order for GoSS to confiscate about three thousand firearms — about one person dead for every two firearms confiscated.
Although the government of Khartoum had been trying for many years to confiscate guns in south Sudan (as well as in Darfur), the CPA set in motion the events leading to the current rounds of attempted confiscation. The January 2005 CPA led to the January 2006 Juba Declaration (http://web.archive.org/web/20110722021211/http://www.issafrica.org/AF/profiles/sudan/darfur/jubadecljan06.pdf), to unify southern military factions. The fledgling Government of South Sudan and the United Nations both assumed that the next step would be the disarmament of the civilian population, and of the various self-defense militias that were not to become integrated into the Sudan People’s Liberation Army (SPLA).

snip

The Lou Nuer tribe (http://web.archive.org/web/20110722021211/http://www.lounuer.org/) of the Jonglei state in south Sudan was targeted for disarmament in January 2006. The Lou Nuer argued that they needed protection from the Murle tribe, but no assurances were given them for their security. The GoSS promised that the Lou Nuer would be compensated for their surrendered arms, but no money was ever made available for that purpose. Meanwhile, the army, which was carrying out the gun confiscation, had no funds for its own food, so the army helped itself to the Lou Nuer’s cattle. The army and the government mediators ended up eating about 1,300 head of Lou Nuer cattle, according to a UN official’s estimate — and the local subsistence economy, in which cattle are by far the main source of a family’s income, was devastated (http://web.archive.org/web/20110722021211/http://www.iss.co.za/static/templates/tmpl_html.php?node_id=2464&slink_id=4733&slink_type=12&link_id=25).

http://davekopel.org/2a/Foreign/guns-of-sudan.html

[shaarona]

So don't scan the text. lol

That bit about the romance between Arabs and blacks is nice but right now there is a genocide occurring. Why do you wish to sweep this violence under the carpet? Why are you an apologist?

Again, Darfur is in the Sudan. There is a great deal of violence in the Sudan and the Arab controlled governement is at least partly (some say solely) responsible. As for water and pasture, do you really think there would be this much violence if these groups were the same? Nonsense.

Don't think.. look at the facts over the past 30 years. This is very much like the range wars of the old West... between cattlemen and squatters. They were all white and "Christian"..

The best hope is that Darfur lies on top of a huge aquifer... that can be accessed... That's why the Saudis and the GCC have been drilling water wells.

[Mister D]

Don't think.. look at the facts over the past 30 years. This is very much like the range wars of the old West... between cattlemen and squatters. They were all white and "Christian"..

The best hope is that Darfur lies on top of a huge aquifer... that can be accessed... That's why the Saudis and the GCC have been drilling water wells.

I don't recall any "range wars of the old West" resulting in genocide. Do you?

The best hope for Darfur is for the Arab government to share power.

[shaarona]

I don't recall any "range wars of the old West" resulting in genocide. Do you?

The best hope for Darfur is for the Arab government to share power.

Share power with whom? Darfur is about the size of France with a population of about 7 million... poor as dirt.. Women walk 5 miles a day to get a jerry can of water. The population of Darfur moves from one over populated refugee camp to another making matters worse.

I have had an interest in Sudan for 50 years and have known many Sudanese.. There are Christians in Sudan.. but the tribal gangs who call themselves "Marxist Christians" are hardly recognizable as Christians at all and have been vicious in raiding and killing and kidnapping from the animist tribes...

Kony for instance hated bicycles and if you got caught riding one, your feet would be cut off.

The Saudis have leased 2 million acres in Sudan.. to farm and employ Sudanese... its not a one dimensional problem that can be chalked up to race and religion.. American celebrities don't have a clue.

[Mister D]

Share power with whom? Darfur is about the size of France with a population of about 7 million... poor as dirt.. Women walk 5 miles a day to get a jerry can of water. The population of Darfur moves from one over populated refugee camp to another making matters worse.

I have had an interest in Sudan for 50 years and have known many Sudanese.. There are Christians in Sudan.. but the tribal gangs who call themselves "Marxist Christians" are hardly recognizable as Christians at all and have been vicious in raiding and killing and kidnapping from the animist tribes...

Kony for instance hated bicycles and if you got caught riding one, your feet would be cut off.

The Saudis have leased 2 million acres in Sudan.. to farm and employ Sudanese... its not a one dimensional problem that can be chalked up to race and religion.. American celebrities don't have a clue.

For an expert on the Sudan you sure miss a lot. Do you get luxury tours of the Cuban paradise as well?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/world/africa/darfur-war-crimes-prosecutor-urges-action-against-omar-al-bashir.html?_r=0

The prosecutor, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, whose term expires at the end of June, told council members in his 15th and final report on the Darfur prosecution effort that the council also should consider requesting that all 193 members of the United Nations — not just those that recognize the court’s authority — take action to enforce the arrest warrants on President Omar Hassan al-Bashir (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/omar_hassan_al_bashir/index.html?inline=nyt-per) of Sudan and the others, who include two powerful subordinates and the leader of a feared militia accused of large-scale killings, pillage and rapes. Mr. Bashir, the only sitting head of state to be indicted on charges of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity, has repeatedly scoffed at the arrest warrants and has even traveled abroad despite the risk of arrest, although he could face that threat again next month if he attends an African Union summit meeting in Malawi.
No Sudanese officials have yet been arrested in connection with the violent campaign against non-Arab civilians in the Darfur region of western Sudan. The United Nations has said at least 300,000 people died there over the past decade and that more than 4 million were forcibly displaced. The Security Council authorized Mr. Moreno-Ocampo to begin a criminal inquiry seven years ago, and the voluminous case he developed against Mr. Bashir and the co-defendants eventually turned into a stalemate.

Anyway, no one said it was a one dimensional problem. Wars rarely are. On the other hand, your compulsion to apologize for the Khartoum government is disgusting.

[shaarona]

For an expert on the Sudan you sure miss a lot. Do you get luxury tours of the Cuban paradise as well?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/world/africa/darfur-war-crimes-prosecutor-urges-action-against-omar-al-bashir.html?_r=0

The prosecutor, Luis Moreno-Ocampo, whose term expires at the end of June, told council members in his 15th and final report on the Darfur prosecution effort that the council also should consider requesting that all 193 members of the United Nations — not just those that recognize the court’s authority — take action to enforce the arrest warrants on President Omar Hassan al-Bashir (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/b/omar_hassan_al_bashir/index.html?inline=nyt-per) of Sudan and the others, who include two powerful subordinates and the leader of a feared militia accused of large-scale killings, pillage and rapes. Mr. Bashir, the only sitting head of state to be indicted on charges of genocide, war crimes and crimes against humanity, has repeatedly scoffed at the arrest warrants and has even traveled abroad despite the risk of arrest, although he could face that threat again next month if he attends an African Union summit meeting in Malawi.
No Sudanese officials have yet been arrested in connection with the violent campaign against non-Arab civilians in the Darfur region of western Sudan. The United Nations has said at least 300,000 people died there over the past decade and that more than 4 million were forcibly displaced. The Security Council authorized Mr. Moreno-Ocampo to begin a criminal inquiry seven years ago, and the voluminous case he developed against Mr. Bashir and the co-defendants eventually turned into a stalemate.

Anyway, no one said it was a one dimensional problem. Wars rarely are. On the other hand, your compulsion to apologize for the Khartoum government is disgusting.

Why do you think half the world disagrees re: Bashir? Sudan is a huge mess and has been for many decades.. Khartoum has had little control over Darfur or the South.. or the gangs that have plagued the animists, real Christians and Muslims.

But, the reality is that you can't change a raiding culture in the south that has existed for thousands of years overnight. They speak 67 different languages.. Consider the implications of that.

Do you realize that everyone has been selling small arms to every group in Sudan for decades.. The Chinese, the US, the Israelis.. and now suddenly they think it can all be fixed by hanging Bashir?

That's why they keep trying to describe the problems in terms of "race or religion"...

[Mister D]

Why do you think half the world disagrees re: Bashir? Sudan is a huge mess and has been for many decades.. Khartoum has had little control over Darfur or the South.. or the gangs that have plagued the animists, real Christians and Muslims.

But, the reality is that you can't change a raiding culture in the south that has existed for thousands of years overnight. They speak 67 different languages.. Consider the implications of that.

Do you realize that everyone has been selling small arms to every group in Sudan for decades.. The Chinese, the US, the Israelis.. and now suddenly they think it can all be fixed by hanging Bashir?

That's why they keep trying to describe the problems in terms of "race or religion"...

African strongmen rarely turn in their own. That's an established pattern. It's great for the strongmen but sucks for Africans. Anyway, yes, Khartoum doesn't have much control because their governing sucks but they have been trying to regain that control by killing indiscriminately hence the charges.

In reality, Africa is a mess. We all know that. That does not excuse the Sudanese government.

Again, so what? That does not excuse the Sudananse government. Do you think these groups rebelled because they were bored? Secondly, no one suggests hanging Bashitr will fix things. That's not the point.

That's because the problems are racial, ethnic, and religious. That's true for most of Africa.

[shaarona]

African strongmen rarely turn in their own. That's an established pattern. It's great for the strongmen but sucks for Africans. Anyway, yes, Khartoum doesn't have much control because their governing sucks but they have been trying to regain that control by killing indiscriminately hence the charges.

In reality, Africa is a mess. We all know that. That does not excuse the Sudanese government.

Again, so what? That does not excuse the Sudananse government. Do you think these groups rebelled because they were bored? Secondly, no one suggests hanging Bashitr will fix things. That's not the point.

That's because the problems are racial, ethnic, and religious. That's true for most of Africa.

I love you to death, but in the matter of Sudan you are in error. Talk to some educated Sudanese professionals.. Hang out with them for a day...Ask them about race and religion... Go to church with them. Do a press conference with them.. Sit in on a round table discussion..

[Mister D]

I love you to death, but in the matter of Sudan you are in error. Talk to some educated Sudanese professionals.. Hang out with them for a day...Ask them about race and religion... Go to church with them. Do a press conference with them.. Sit in on a round table discussion..

We can agree to disagree. :smiley:

Shaarona, the government of the Sudan is vicious. Do you disagree?

[shaarona]

We can agree to disagree. :smiley:

Shaarona, the government of the Sudan is vicious. Do you disagree?

I spent some time reading the laws of Sudan particularly after they instituted Sharia law.. and about what the reactions were from the GCC.

Two things stand out..

1.. They were too harsh with a poor understanding of Islam.. and were being criticized by other Muslim countries...

and 2.

They exempted Christians and animists from Muslim observances..

So its a mixed bag ......

[Mister D]

I spent some time reading the laws of Sudan particularly after they instituted Sharia law.. and about what the reactions were from the GCC.

Two things stand out..

1.. They were too harsh with a poor understanding of Islam.. and were being criticized by other Muslim countries...

and 2.

They exempted Christians and animists from Muslim observances..

So its a mixed bag ......

I'm referring to the government's actions (i.e. the indiscriminate killing and the raping/pillaging conducted by forces loyal to it). That doesn't remind me of range wars in the Old West. It doesn't even remind me of our Civil War. It's not enough to point at some rebel group that has done bad things as if that excuses Khartoum. That's doesn't excuse the government from brutalizing its citizenry. Yes, I know many tyrants support Bashir just like they support Mugabe but that says nothing. It's routine. Now I'm not saying we should do anything about it. Frankly, Sudan was granted independence far too soon but we can't march around the world addressing every wrong. That said, a large part of the blame for the violence can be laid directly at the government's door.

[shaarona]

I'm referring to the government's actions (i.e. the indiscriminate killing and the raping/pillaging conducted by forces loyal to it). That doesn't remind me of range wars in the Old West. It doesn't even remind me of our Civil War. It's not enough to point at some rebel group that has done bad things as if that excuses Khartoum. That's doesn't excuse the government from brutalizing its citizenry. Yes, I know many tyrants support Bashir just like they support Mugabe but that says nothing. It's routine. Now I'm not saying we should do anything about it. Frankly, Sudan was granted independence far too soon but we can't march around the world addressing every wrong. That said, a large part of the blame for the violence can be laid directly at the government's door.

Its not about "tyrants".. Its about poverty and illiteracy. IMO, Islam is the best hope of Sudan because of the social contract.

The violence can be laid at the feet of the gun runners and their small arms sales to every crackpot rebel group.

The people of the south cannot change their raiding tradition overnight.. and nobody understands that better than Muslims... and it is NOT essential that all the animists and Christians become Muslim.

The key is clean water, education and healthcare.

You can't shatter the social fabric and make things better even in the short run.

Blaming Bashir is idiocy.. Its a lazy quick fix for a complex problem.

[Mister D]

Its not about "tyrants".. Its about poverty and illiteracy. IMO, Islam is the best hope of Sudan because of the social contract.

The violence can be laid at the feet of the gun runners and their small arms sales to every crackpot rebel group.

The people of the south cannot change their raiding tradition overnight.. and nobody understands that better than Muslims... and it is NOT essential that all the animists and Christians become Muslim.

The key is clean water, education and healthcare.

You can't shatter the social fabric and make things better even in the short run.

Blaming Bashir is idiocy.. Its a lazy quick fix for a complex problem.

Just like communism was the best hope for the millions murdered around the world. Just stop.

If you insist on apologizing for a murderous government that's fine but make no mistake about it: you are apologizing for a murderous government and blaming its victims.

[coolwalker]

For someone opposed to war he sure does a lot of hunting and killing. Ah, 14 more days!

[shaarona]

Just like communism was the best hope for the millions murdered around the world. Just stop.

If you insist on apologizing for a murderous government that's fine but make no mistake about it: you are apologizing for a murderous government and blaming its victims.

I give up.. You are entitled to your beliefs about Sudan.

[Mister D]

I give up.. You are entitled to your beliefs about Sudan.

Thanks. That's probably a lot more than the goverment in Khartoum would grant me. :grin:

[shaarona]

Thanks. That's probably a lot more than the goverment in Khartoum would grant me. :grin:

I have to assume you have never discussed Sudan with any Sudanese.

[Mister D]

I have to assume you have never discussed Sudan with any Sudanese.

It's immaterial. I know Stalin murdered a great many Soviet citizens without having known any myself.

[coolwalker]

It's immaterial. I know Stalin murdered a great many Soviet citizens without having known any myself.

She knows all the Arabs in the world and every thought they have. She is an expert in everything Arab from A to Z (if the indeed have an A-Z). No matter what you say she been there and done that and has all the tee-shirts. You're better off letting her herd her sheep and ignoring her.

[shaarona]

She knows all the Arabs in the world and every thought they have. She is an expert in everything Arab from A to Z (if the indeed have an A-Z). No matter what you say she been there and done that and has all the tee-shirts. You're better off letting her herd her sheep and ignoring her.

Don't be so childish.. Read up on Sudan yourself.

[Ivan88]

809You can safely bet that the stated reasons are not the real reasons.

[shaarona]

809You can safely bet that the stated reasons are not the real reasons.

Generl Carter Ham said the LRA's days were numbered back in May.