Gamergate?

[Codename Section]

LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy

http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2014/10/13/what-is-gamergate-and-how-did-it-blow-up-into-such-a-giant-conspiracy/

http://jezebel.com/gamergate-trolls-arent-ethics-crusaders-theyre-a-hate-1644984010

I guess there is a war in the gaming community between old school (heterosexual male) gamers and female, transgender, and alternative sex players.

WOW. Why can't games be games?

[Captain Obvious]

You mean that the gamer community has it's petty controversies?

That's an unusual crowd to see this happening in.

:biglaugh:

[Codename Section]

Basically some chick wrote a video game about depression and what its like to be depressed. It got positive reviews and then her ex boyfriend accused her of sleeping with the reviewer. People played the game, thought it sucked, and began to see conspiracy. Then some feminist chick got involved and trolls from all over started posting stupid shit to each other.

Now, its about social engineering and gaming and the original chick's best friend said she DID sleep with the reviewer and now reddit's talking about how game reviewers are mostly gay and helping to spread anti-heterosexual male sentiment.

Gaming...lol

[del]

this goes a long way toward explaining capwhatever's posts

[donttread]

LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy

http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2014/10/13/what-is-gamergate-and-how-did-it-blow-up-into-such-a-giant-conspiracy/

http://jezebel.com/gamergate-trolls-arent-ethics-crusaders-theyre-a-hate-1644984010

I guess there is a war in the gaming community between old school (heterosexual male) gamers and female, transgender, and alternative sex players.

WOW. Why can't games be games?

I'm not seeing the females having a hard time being accepted here

[Captain Obvious]

Basically some chick wrote a video game about depression and what its like to be depressed. It got positive reviews and then her ex boyfriend accused her of sleeping with the reviewer. People played the game, thought it sucked, and began to see conspiracy. Then some feminist chick got involved and trolls from all over started posting stupid shit to each other.

Now, its about social engineering and gaming and the original chick's best friend said she DID sleep with the reviewer and now reddit's talking about how game reviewers are mostly gay and helping to spread anti-heterosexual male sentiment.

Gaming...lol

I'm so fucking glad I grew up in an earlier generation.

Honestly, fuck this.

[Codename Section]

I'm so $#@!ing glad I grew up in an earlier generation.

Honestly, $#@! this.

Yeh. A game about depression? I'll never complain about Mario again.

[Green Arrow]

I don't get involved in all that nonsense. I just play my games and that's that. Even on my MMOs, I tend to play solo as much as possible.

[IMPress Polly]

When you're a girl trying to get into this community, subjects like these impose themselves upon you when you realize that most people in "your community" assume that you suck and want to be a supporting character and coddle you for sexual favors because members of your sex are that rare a sight in the community. That's right, there are implicit gender roles in online gaming communities that are much like the ones in the real world, and, just as in the real world, when you defy them, you get in trouble. That's because the overwhelming majority of game-makers are male and they basically make games for other men, replete with all manner of implicit prejudices against 'the others' that their consumers in turn adopt or learn to shut up about (because here's what happens when you try to talk about these things in a gaming web community (http://creativetimereports.org/2014/11/20/angela-washko-feminism-world-of-warcraft-gamergate/?utm_source=digg&utm_medium=email)). That's been my experience, and it's nothing new, folks. And it used to be worse back in the pre-Internet days when the industry was in more or less total control of the gaming world. It's kind of a First World problem (as yet anyway), but it's annoying nonetheless. That's kinda why I tend to prefer playing solo, in fact, or at least one of the reasons. Not so much judgment when you're by yourself.

[Paperback Writer]

Every RPG game allows for female lead characters, female characters, etc. IMPress Polly of the modern games which do you feel still don't allow for women?

[GrassrootsConservative]

When you're a girl trying to get into this community, subjects like these impose themselves upon you when you realize that most people in "your community" assume that you suck and want to be a supporting character and coddle you for sexual favors because members of your sex are that rare a sight in the community. That's right, there are implicit gender roles in online gaming communities that are much like the ones in the real world, and, just as in the real world, when you defy them, you get in trouble. That's because the overwhelming majority of game-makers are male and they basically make games for other men, replete with all manner of implicit prejudices against 'the others' that their consumers in turn adopt or learn to shut up about (because
here's what happens when you try to talk about these things in a gaming web community (http://creativetimereports.org/2014/11/20/angela-washko-feminism-world-of-warcraft-gamergate/?utm_source=digg&utm_medium=email)). That's been my experience, and it's nothing new, folks. And it used to be worse back in the pre-Internet days when the industry was in more or less total control of the gaming world. It's kind of a First World problem (as yet anyway), but it's annoying nonetheless. That's kinda why I tend to prefer playing solo, in fact, or at least one of the reasons. Not so much judgment when you're by yourself.

Females are victims. :laugh:

/Edit: It's funny because everyday men are manipulated into giving money and other material possessions to women using their looks or sex or whatever.

[IMPress Polly]

Paperback Writer wrote:
Every RPG game allows for female lead characters, female characters, etc. @IMPress Polly (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=399) of the modern games which do you feel still don't allow for women?

That's a bald-faced lie. Only 4% of all modern video games have a female lead character (a decline from 7% in the late 1990s and more than that in the early-to-mid 2000s) and only a minority even afford the options you describe.

Traditionally, video game RPGs have either not afforded the player a choice of characters at all (which, incidentally, isn't always a bad thing!) or have afforded girls the option only of choosing healer characters, and the corresponding prejudices survive today, even in communities corresponding to games that are no longer structurally like that, because most of the people there grew up playing those older games.

Try joining a Call of Duty community as a girl or playing World of Warcraft for a while. These communities are typical examples that are both less than 15% female here in an America wherein 48% of all gamers (defined here as people who play at least an hour of video games a week) are female. You'll find that your play experience will differ a lot if you choose a female avatar. In some ways it will actually be easier precisely BECAUSE everyone thinks you suck and wants sexual favors from you! But you'll probably get annoyed by it after a while and perhaps wish things were different. You might kinda wish there were more girls there; someone who might understand you a little better. But alas, it's not a very girl-friendly atmosphere. And good luck finding a female avatar who is fully clothed or actually played by a woman. (Most of the female avatars in online games are played by men who simply want to look at a scantly clothed girl character all day.)

Not that these are deep, abiding oppressions, but they do affect the way you think about yourself over time, with enough exposure.

[Mister D]

That's a bald-faced lie. Only 4% of all modern video games have a female lead character and only a minority even afford the options you describe.

Traditionally, video game RPGs have either not afforded the player a choice of characters at all (which, incidentally, isn't always a bad thing!) or have afforded girls the option only of choosing healer characters, and the corresponding prejudices survive today, even in communities corresponding to games that are no longer structurally like that, because most of the people there grew up playing those older games. Try joining a Call of Duty community as a girl or playing World of Warcraft for a while. These communities are typical examples that are both less than 15% female here in an America wherein 48% of all gamers (defined here as people who play at least an hour of video games a week) are female. You'll find that your play experience will differ a lot if you choose a female avatar. In some ways it will actually be easier precisely BECAUSE everyone thinks you suck and wants sexual favors from you! But you'll probably get annoyed by it after a while and perhaps wish things were different. And good luck finding a female avatar who is fully clothed or actually played by a woman. (Most of the female avatars in online games are played by men who simply want to look at a scantly clothed girl character all day.)

Not that these are deep, abiding oppressions, but they do affect the way you think about yourself over time, with enough exposure.

If that's the case then females need to make more RPGs. Problem solved. I don't mean to be dismissive but males cater to males. Does that surprise anyone?

[IMPress Polly]

Mister D wrote:
If that's the case then females need to make more RPGs. Problem solved. I don't mean to be dismissive but males cater to males. Does that surprise anyone?

I agree, and women making more games is precisely a phenomenon we're seeing happen in today's Internet era, which makes me optimistic about the future. :smiley: Watch in particular for games made by women in the indie scene (especially independent online downloadables) because that's where they thrive. (Aspiring female game designers simply don't tend to get far in the industry proper where the class ceiling is heavily reinforced, so, as in the world of film, they have to go the indie route if they ever really want to get anywhere.) The Internet has made the production of indie games much cheaper and more practical than it used to be, so you're going to see more of that in the future at the industry's expense.

[Paperback Writer]

I asked which RPG games (modern) don't allow for female characters, not which games or how many players are females. Call of Duty now allows for females in its games, even though it's entirely unrealistic.

[Peter1469]

Can you modernize Mechwarrior and make it work with Windows 7 please? :smiley:
I agree, and women making more games is precisely a phenomenon we're seeing happen in today's Internet era, which makes me optimistic about the future. :smiley: Watch in particular for games made by women in the indie scene (especially independent online downloadables) because that's where they thrive. (Aspiring female game designers simply don't tend to get far in the industry proper where the class ceiling is heavily reinforced, so, as in the world of film, they have to go the indie route if they ever really want to get anywhere.) The Internet has made the production of indie games much cheaper and more practical than it used to be, so you're going to see more of that in the future at the industry's expense.

[IMPress Polly]

Me personally? Nope. :tongue: I know nothing about how to make video games; I just know how to play them. :laugh: But I have no doubt there you can Google something like "Mechwarrior Windows 7" and find what you're looking for, Peter.

[Green Arrow]

That's a bald-faced lie. Only 4% of all modern video games have a female lead character (a decline from 7% in the late 1990s and more than that in the early-to-mid 2000s) and only a minority even afford the options you describe.

Traditionally, video game RPGs have either not afforded the player a choice of characters at all (which, incidentally, isn't always a bad thing!) or have afforded girls the option only of choosing healer characters, and the corresponding prejudices survive today, even in communities corresponding to games that are no longer structurally like that, because most of the people there grew up playing those older games.

Try joining a Call of Duty community as a girl or playing World of Warcraft for a while. These communities are typical examples that are both less than 15% female here in an America wherein 48% of all gamers (defined here as people who play at least an hour of video games a week) are female. You'll find that your play experience will differ a lot if you choose a female avatar. In some ways it will actually be easier precisely BECAUSE everyone thinks you suck and wants sexual favors from you! But you'll probably get annoyed by it after a while and perhaps wish things were different. You might kinda wish there were more girls there; someone who might understand you a little better. But alas, it's not a very girl-friendly atmosphere. And good luck finding a female avatar who is fully clothed or actually played by a woman. (Most of the female avatars in online games are played by men who simply want to look at a scantly clothed girl character all day.)

Not that these are deep, abiding oppressions, but they do affect the way you think about yourself over time, with enough exposure.

I agreed with your point right up until you mentioned World of Warcraft. As an avid WoW player, I agree that it's not overtly friendly toward female players, but it's certainly not as bad as it used to be. A player mentioning that theyvwere female used to be responded to with, "Girls don't play WoW." Nowadays, it's a little more accepted. Of course, server choice and faction also plays a big part in that.

None of that affects the fact that you CAN play a female character, and your female character does not have to run around scantily clad. My Alliance Paladin is a Draenei female, and her armor is rather bulky and not in any way revealing. WoW is also rather progressive with female NPCs, as there are female racial leaders (Tyrande Whisperwind of the Night Elves, Sylvanas Windrunner of the Forsaken, Moira Thaurissan of the Dwarf Council), as well as female leaders of powerful organizations and high-profile military leaders of the Alliance and Horde. Jaina Proudmoore, leader of the mage guild, the Kirin Tor, is one of those.

With the start of the new expansion, Warlords of Draenor, the game has gotten even more female-friendly. If you made a female character and levelled her to 90, starting Warlords content would right off the bat make you the military commander of your entire faction's war effort against the warlords of Draenor. You are given soldiers and a garrison as a foothold on the savage world of Draenor, and all your followers and soldiers refer to you as "commander." When you get your garrison to rank 3, a cinematic shows the expansion of your garrison and your faction leader calls you "General." Additionally, you encounter two orcs in particular, Draka and Aggra. Draka is the wife of Durotan, Chieftain of the Frostwolf Clan. Aggra is the wife of Thrall, orc Shaman and former Warchief of the Horde. Neither Draka nor Aggra are beholden to their husbands and have just as much a leadership role in their clans and military ventures as the males.

[IMPress Polly]

Very helpful post! I was mostly going on the basis of testimonials and quotations from actual player debates on WoW, some of which were linked to in my post on page 1. (And a certain popularized scene from the game that I saw a long time ago that I felt communicated to me in 20 seconds essentially all I needed to know about where I would stand in the WoW community. :wink:)

[Peter1469]

Me personally? Nope. :tongue: I know nothing about how to make video games; I just know how to play them. :laugh: But I have no doubt there you can Google something like "Mechwarrior Windows 7" and find what you're looking for, Peter.

So far I only see the online version. Not for me. But I will keep looking.

[IMPress Polly]

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, Peter!

[Peter1469]

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful, Peter!

It isn't your fault. I will see if I can find anything. Of course, I could always just try new games....

[Green Arrow]

Very helpful post! I was mostly going on the basis of testimonials and quotations from actual player debates on WoW, some of which were linked to in my post on page 1. (And a certain popularized scene from the game that I saw a long time ago that I felt communicated to me in 20 seconds essentially all I needed to know about where I would stand in the WoW community. :wink:)

I don't necessarily disagree with the point in that article, either. Even as a male, I find the majority of the WoW community lacking. As a gay male, I've seen plenty of language and attitudes that I found offensive, but mention it and the trolls kick into high gear. Luckily, I have good guilds on all my characters that I can get decent and intelligent companionship from, and I generally ignore the greater WoW community.

[CreepyOldDude]

So far I only see the online version. Not for me. But I will keep looking.

Have you checked out this article?

How to Play Mechwarrior 4: Mercenaries on Your Windows 7 PC (http://www.pcworld.com/article/244041/how_to_play_mechwarrior_4_mercenaries_on_your_wind ows_7_pc.html)

Hope it helps.

[Alyosha]

I go back and forth on gamergate because as a female I was like "Fuck yeh!" when companies like Bethesda Softworks and Bioware started adding female "leads" to the games because I never wanted to play a male. It's why I loved Lara Croft so much. She was really the first kickass female in gaming, and an archaeologist.

But having been to the Bioware forums and quit--quit because I have never, ever ever ever EVER in my whole life been anywhere as overly hypersensitive towards advanced microscopic political correctness in my life--I think we're going too far.

They have a developer on there to talk to people, white male hipster type who has to placate people and tell straight males to shut up, anyway they actually had him apologizing because there were no characters for ....

Graysexual

When he asked what that was this guy/girl responded that it's like fog on a mountain where you have no idea what your sexuality is. He mentioned asexual and pansexualism and was told he was being dismissive.

They are actually demanding that the game include specifically characters who express asexuality, pansexuality, and that they have to be 1 for 1 sexuality across the board.

If Bioware panders to this, I quit them. It's stupid. It's a fucking fantasy hero game and your romance in the game is just icing on the cake. It's not the fucking game. Fighting dragons is the fucking game.

I don't even romance people in the games sometimes because it's just a lot of work and annoying. Political correctness will ruin, fucking ruin gaming.

[nic34]

Wow, glad I stuck with Zelda....:grin:

[Peter1469]

Have you checked out this article?

How to Play Mechwarrior 4: Mercenaries on Your Windows 7 PC (http://www.pcworld.com/article/244041/how_to_play_mechwarrior_4_mercenaries_on_your_wind ows_7_pc.html)

Hope it helps.

I will check it out this weekend. Thanks.

[kilgram]

I don't get involved in all that nonsense. I just play my games and that's that. Even on my MMOs, I tend to play solo as much as possible.
Curious:

Are you in some guild in your MMOS?

PS: I have to say that I am pretty happy with the gamers of the MMO I am currently playing.

[kilgram]

I go back and forth on gamergate because as a female I was like "Fuck yeh!" when companies like Bethesda Softworks and Bioware started adding female "leads" to the games because I never wanted to play a male. It's why I loved Lara Croft so much. She was really the first kickass female in gaming, and an archaeologist.

But having been to the Bioware forums and quit--quit because I have never, ever ever ever EVER in my whole life been anywhere as overly hypersensitive towards advanced microscopic political correctness in my life--I think we're going too far.

They have a developer on there to talk to people, white male hipster type who has to placate people and tell straight males to shut up, anyway they actually had him apologizing because there were no characters for ....

Graysexual

When he asked what that was this guy/girl responded that it's like fog on a mountain where you have no idea what your sexuality is. He mentioned asexual and pansexualism and was told he was being dismissive.

They are actually demanding that the game include specifically characters who express asexuality, pansexuality, and that they have to be 1 for 1 sexuality across the board.

If Bioware panders to this, I quit them. It's stupid. It's a fucking fantasy hero game and your romance in the game is just icing on the cake. It's not the fucking game. Fighting dragons is the fucking game.

I don't even romance people in the games sometimes because it's just a lot of work and annoying. Political correctness will ruin, fucking ruin gaming.
That is not even political correctness. That is a skill known as stupidity, but with some improvements, stupidity + 1000000.

By the way... I played agan Tomb Raider (2013), and shit, I loved it. The detail of the game was incredible. I loved how she was becoming stronger, and also how she was getting hurt, and how many scars she got in the end. It was pretty realistic.

I have to add The Rise of Tomb Raider (2015) to my list of games for that year :)

[Green Arrow]

Curious:

Are you in some guild in your MMOS?

PS: I have to say that I am pretty happy with the gamers of the MMO I am currently playing.

I'm in two main guilds on my Horde and Alliance characters on WoW. They are pretty good.

[Animal Mother]

What's pansexual and how is it different than bisexual and graysexual? Green Arrow not to make you the poster boy of alternative sexuality but I don't understand this shit.

[Mister D]

What's pansexual and how is it different than bisexual and graysexual? @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) not to make you the poster boy of alternative sexuality but I don't understand this $#@!.

I wanted to ask earlier. now I don't look so square. :tongue:

[Green Arrow]

What's pansexual and how is it different than bisexual and graysexual? @Green Arrow (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=868) not to make you the poster boy of alternative sexuality but I don't understand this shit.

Hell, I don't understand half of it either. Now I'm even hearing of cisgender, and I'm like, WTF?

[kilgram]

Hell, I don't understand half of it either. Now I'm even hearing of cisgender, and I'm like, WTF?
A what?????!!!!

Seriously people is becoming more creepy.

[IMPress Polly]

Alyosha wrote:
I go back and forth on gamergate because as a female I was like "$#@! yeh!" when companies like Bethesda Softworks and Bioware started adding female "leads" to the games because I never wanted to play a male. It's why I loved Lara Croft so much. She was really the first kickass female in gaming, and an archaeologist.

When I was little, I wanted to grow up to be an archeologist to dig up dinosaur bones. :smiley:

Anyway, I must point out that although Lara Croft is probably the most famous female action hero in a video game series, she wasn't the first. Maybe this is just symptomatic of how long I've been playing video games, but I have games dating all the way back to 1987 (where the original Tomb Raider was released in 1996 of course) that star female action heroes. Namely, have you considered Samus Aran from the classic Metroid games? The original Metroid was came out for the NES in 1987. Now I think one of the obvious differences between that game and the original Tomb Raider is that Nintendo designed Metroid specifically to be played by guys and was kind of a way for them actually challenge some of the prejudices of their fans. In the original Metroid, you play as a bounty hunter in a muscular armored suit that prejudice dictates 'looks masculine', so the player presumes it's a guy...until they beat the game, whereupon Samus removes the suit, revealing that you've been playing as a woman the whole time. That was a pretty brilliant way of introducing their audience to a little bit of women's lib, IMO. :cool2: The effect isn't quite the same on repetition though, as everyone knew that Samus was female after the first game. There was also another "interesting" little feature to Metroid that I think makes it clear that girls weren't supposed to play it: the faster you beat the game, the less clothing Samus winds up wearing on the final screen. Most girls being heterosexual, I'm not sure how one can argue that oh say I would think of that as a reward. :wink: But flaws like that aside, the basic concept was pretty cool I thought. Again, the first time.

That's kinda something that Nintendo has been prone to do in multiple franchises, in fact. As another prominent and classic example, take The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. The latter half of that game witnesses the introduction of a mysterious, masked muscular character called Sheik who aides our protagonist, Link, in certain ways on his quest to rescue the kidnapped Princess Zelda from the clutches of Ganondorf. Then, once you've awakened six of the seven sages who must be awakened to defeat Ganondorf, Sheik reveals "himself" to in fact be none other than Zelda herself, whom you thought you were working to rescue the whole time! ...And then less than 20 seconds later (i.e. basically as soon as you know she's female) she is, in fact, kidnapped by Ganondorf and you have to go rescue her, kinda negating much of the previous point. :rollseyes: (By contrast, when Link gets kidnapped and imprisoned by women at a certain point in the same game, he is able to free himself.) Or we could highlight how each new Super Smash Bros. game has featured more female fighters than the last (of course as part of featuring more fighters in general than the last), and yet the franchise is still called Super Smash Bros. anyway. "Brother" Lucina and "brother" Palutena happen to be two of my favorites right now, harumph! And they still measure stock (lives) as "men". e.g. Will this be a "3-man" battle or a "5-man" battle, i.e. will each fighter have three lives or five? This kind of flawed feminism has been kinda thematic of Nintendo, in my observation. Well anyway, getting back to our action heroine, Samus, I say this about her notwithstanding the transformation of Samus's character into a pitifully weak, mindless pin-up since the introduction of her Zero Suit (named for what it leaves to the imagination) in 2008. The idea that Samus still qualifies as a feminist icon is hence kind of a joke to me these days. It's almost like arguing that Bayonetta qualifies as one just for technically being a female action hero even though all her moves involve making stripper poses and her strongest one involves removing all her clothes. But my point with Samus was that she was once, and I mean well before 1996, kind of a feminist icon in a way, as a rare female action hero in the world of video games. Metroid just didn't start quite the revolution in the gaming community's way of thinking that Tomb Raider did, as the latter went on to break records for commercial success that the former just didn't.

Perhaps a more perfect example of early "girl power" in the world of video games though was The Great Giana Sisters for the Commodore 64. If the name sounds derivative, that's because the game was a flagrant rip-off of the original Super Mario Bros., which had been released two years previous at the time, with by far the biggest difference being that you played as two sisters instead of as two brothers. But that's exactly what makes it a superb challenge to traditional gender roles: the fact that they're treated the same way that Nintendo treated Mario and Luigi instead of being treated in a substantially different way just for being female! You see what I'm saying?

Lara Croft I classify in the category of flawed feminism. Unlike her Nintendo counterpart Samus Aran though, her treatment has been improving in recent years (e.g. less sexualization, more realism), where Samus has definitely been taken in the worsening direction as a character (e.g. increasing degrees of sexualization, loss of ability to make decisions independently).

1996 was just kind of a banner year for female representation in video games generally because of third wave feminism sweeping Britain in and around that specific point in time. For example illustrating this, that same year in Britain, the Spice Girls ascended to a Beatles-challenging cultural status. Well likewise, in the world of video games, British companies churned out some truly megahit games starring girls that year that proved global hits, of which Tomb Raider was only the most prominent. It was the best-selling game that year on both the PlayStation and the Sega Saturn. Another British game company, Rare, also released Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble that year, which went on to be the best-selling new Super NES title of 1996 and remains the only game in the Donkey Kong franchise to star a female character (however flawed). But it's also worth noting that NiGHTS Into Dreams, which stars an androgynous character (whom I personally like a little better than Lara), was also a top-selling Saturn game that year. That game was designed to appeal to European audiences, but proved a hit worldwide. Nights I consider one of the best (in this case subjectively) female characters ever invented. "She" is not tropish at all! But anyway, the banner year that was 1996 sparked a revolution in the gaming world, as the sudden commercial success of so many games about female action heroes imposed upon developers the realization that there existed a lot of neglected demand for that...including me. That's when things started to slowly change for the better, in my observation. The next year, for example, they added a female co-star to the Resident Evil franchise (however temporarily :rollseyes:) and it wasn't long thereafter that Pokemon got the same treatment, for instance. 2003 though I would characterize as the next real banner year for women's lib in video games. What was EASILY a record number of games for girls were released that year, after which point surveys of self-identified gamers found that a rapidly growing percentage were female. By 2007, 38% were female. Today, 48% are female. Representation continues to trail the actual gamer gender balance by a whole lot though, mostly IMO becaue it's still almost exclusively men who run the industry.


Alyosha wrote:
But having been to the Bioware forums and quit--quit because I have never, ever ever ever EVER in my whole life been anywhere as overly hypersensitive towards advanced microscopic political correctness in my life--I think we're going too far.

I think it's important for us to remember how we've felt about not being anywhere close to justly represented on-screen, the game parties we've attended with a 9-to-1 male-to-female ratio that yielded "you play like a girl!" retorts and so on. Just because you and I are not gay or of an uncommon gender identity doesn't mean that it's a good idea for us to join the game police (that's my term for the, um, non-gamer men's rights activists who run the Gamergate movement) in their mission to render our hobby as exclusionary as possible. I don't know that everything has to be perfectly even, but surely one can understand where such sentiment is coming from!

I really dislike the game police. I deal with them all the time now in these last three months. In case people have any questions as to the nature of people we're talking about here, here, in the video below, I'll post a sampling of what are mainly their contributions to a YouTube video of a Donkey Kong modification that has the player playing as Pauline instead of Mario. Here was the game police's reaction to somebody creating that mod:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9zIbiNqAM4

Any questions as to whether this is a sexist movement?

[kilgram]

When I was little, I wanted to grow up to be an archeologist to dig up dinosaur bones. :smiley:

Anyway, I must point out that although Lara Croft is probably the most famous female action hero in a video game series, she wasn't the first. Maybe this is just symptomatic of how long I've been playing video games, but I have games dating all the way back to 1987 (where the original Tomb Raider was released in 1996 of course) that star female action heroes. Namely, have you considered Samus Aran from the classic Metroid games? The original Metroid was came out for the NES in 1987. Now I think one of the obvious differences between that game and the original Tomb Raider is that Nintendo designed Metroid specifically to be played by guys and was kind of a way for them actually challenge some of the prejudices of their fans. In the original Metroid, you play as a bounty hunter in a muscular armored suit that prejudice dictates 'looks masculine', so the player presumes it's a guy...until they beat the game, whereupon Samus removes the suit, revealing that you've been playing as a woman the whole time. That was a pretty brilliant way of introducing their audience to a little bit of women's lib, IMO. :cool2: The effect isn't quite the same on repetition though, as everyone knew that Samus was female after the first game. There was also another "interesting" little feature to Metroid that I think makes it clear that girls weren't supposed to play it: the faster you beat the game, the less clothing Samus winds up wearing on the final screen. Most girls being heterosexual, I'm not sure how one can argue that oh say I would think of that as a reward. :wink: But flaws like that aside, the basic concept was pretty cool I thought. Again, the first time.

That's kinda something that Nintendo has been prone to do in multiple franchises, in fact. As another prominent and classic example, take The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time. The latter half of that game witnesses the introduction of a mysterious, masked muscular character called Sheik who aides our protagonist, Link, in certain ways on his quest to rescue the kidnapped Princess Zelda from the clutches of Ganondorf. Then, once you've awakened six of the seven sages who must be awakened to defeat Ganondorf, Sheik reveals "himself" to in fact be none other than Zelda herself, whom you thought you were working to rescue the whole time! ...And then less than 20 seconds later (i.e. basically as soon as you know she's female) she is, in fact, kidnapped by Ganondorf and you have to go rescue her, kinda negating much of the previous point. :rollseyes: (By contrast, when Link gets kidnapped and imprisoned by women at a certain point in the same game, he is able to free himself.) Or we could highlight how each new Super Smash Bros. game has featured more female fighters than the last (of course as part of featuring more fighters in general than the last), and yet the franchise is still called Super Smash Bros. anyway. "Brother" Lucina and "brother" Palutena happen to be two of my favorites right now, harumph! And they still measure stock (lives) as "men". e.g. Will this be a "3-man" battle or a "5-man" battle, i.e. will each fighter have three lives or five? This kind of flawed feminism has been kinda thematic of Nintendo, in my observation. Well anyway, getting back to our action heroine, Samus, I say this about her notwithstanding the transformation of Samus's character into a pitifully weak, mindless pin-up since the introduction of her Zero Suit (named for what it leaves to the imagination) in 2008. The idea that Samus still qualifies as a feminist icon is hence kind of a joke to me these days. It's almost like arguing that Bayonetta qualifies as one just for technically being a female action hero even though all her moves involve making stripper poses and her strongest one involves removing all her clothes. But my point with Samus was that she was once, and I mean well before 1996, kind of a feminist icon in a way, as a rare female action hero in the world of video games. Metroid just didn't start quite the revolution in the gaming community's way of thinking that Tomb Raider did, as the latter went on to break records for commercial success that the former just didn't.

Perhaps a more perfect example of early "girl power" in the world of video games though was The Great Giana Sisters for the Commodore 64. If the name sounds derivative, that's because the game was a flagrant rip-off of the original Super Mario Bros., which had been released two years previous at the time, with by far the biggest difference being that you played as two sisters instead of as two brothers. But that's exactly what makes it a superb challenge to traditional gender roles: the fact that they're treated the same way that Nintendo treated Mario and Luigi instead of being treated in a substantially different way just for being female! You see what I'm saying?

Lara Croft I classify in the category of flawed feminism. Unlike her Nintendo counterpart Samus Aran though, her treatment has been improving in recent years (e.g. less sexualization, more realism), where Samus has definitely been taken in the worsening direction as a character (e.g. increasing degrees of sexualization, loss of ability to make decisions independently).

1996 was just kind of a banner year for female representation in video games generally because of third wave feminism sweeping Britain in and around that specific point in time. For example illustrating this, that same year in Britain, the Spice Girls ascended to a Beatles-challenging cultural status. Well likewise, in the world of video games, British companies churned out some truly megahit games starring girls that year that proved global hits, of which Tomb Raider was only the most prominent. It was the best-selling game that year on both the PlayStation and the Sega Saturn. Another British game company, Rare, also released Donkey Kong Country 3: Dixie Kong's Double Trouble that year, which went on to be the best-selling new Super NES title of 1996 and remains the only game in the Donkey Kong franchise to star a female character (however flawed). But it's also worth noting that NiGHTS Into Dreams, which stars an androgynous character (whom I personally like a little better than Lara), was also a top-selling Saturn game that year. That game was designed to appeal to European audiences, but proved a hit worldwide. Nights I consider one of the best (in this case subjectively) female characters ever invented. "She" is not tropish at all! But anyway, the banner year that was 1996 sparked a revolution in the gaming world, as the sudden commercial success of so many games about female action heroes imposed upon developers the realization that there existed a lot of neglected demand for that...including me. That's when things started to slowly change for the better, in my observation. The next year, for example, they added a female co-star to the Resident Evil franchise (however temporarily :rollseyes:) and it wasn't long thereafter that Pokemon got the same treatment, for instance. 2003 though I would characterize as the next real banner year for women's lib in video games. What was EASILY a record number of games for girls were released that year, after which point surveys of self-identified gamers found that a rapidly growing percentage were female. By 2007, 38% were female. Today, 48% are female. Representation continues to trail the actual gamer gender balance by a whole lot though, mostly IMO becaue it's still almost exclusively men who run the industry.



I think it's important for us to remember how we've felt about not being anywhere close to justly represented on-screen, the game parties we've attended with a 9-to-1 male-to-female ratio that yielded "you play like a girl!" retorts and so on. Just because you and I are not gay or of an uncommon gender identity doesn't mean that it's a good idea for us to join the game police (that's my term for the, um, non-gamer men's rights activists who run the Gamergate movement) in their mission to render our hobby as exclusionary as possible. I don't know that everything has to be perfectly even, but surely one can understand where such sentiment is coming from!

I really dislike the game police. I deal with them all the time now in these last three months. In case people have any questions as to the nature of people we're talking about here, here, in the video below, I'll post a sampling of what are mainly their contributions to a YouTube video of a Donkey Kong modification that has the player playing as Pauline instead of Mario. Here was the game police's reaction to somebody creating that mod:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9zIbiNqAM4

Any questions as to whether this is a sexist movement?

Wow. Great comment.

And the video of DK is great. The people protesting about it are fucking bastards and have a problem.

[Green Arrow]

A what?????!!!!

Seriously people is becoming more creepy.

Apparently "cisgender" just means you are whatever gender you were "assigned" at birth. Transgender folks were born male or female but believe they are the opposite gender they were born as, whereas cisgender folks would be whatever gender they were born as.

Which makes it even dumber, because it's like inventing a whole new word just to say "man" or "woman."

[Green Arrow]

When I was little, I wanted to grow up to be an archeologist to dig up dinosaur bones. :smiley:

Minor point, paleontologists dig up dinosaur bones. Archaeologists dig up human historical artifacts. Dr. Grant from Jurassic Park is a paleontologist, Indiana Jones is an archaeologist.

[IMPress Polly]

Green Arrow wrote:
Minor point, paleontologists dig up dinosaur bones. Archaeologists dig up human historical artifacts. Dr. Grant from Jurassic Park is a paleontologist, Indiana Jones is an archaeologist.

Oh, duh Polly! *smacks self on head* Wow, I feel incredibly stupid right now! :embarrassed::embarrassed:

Sorry Alyosha if I confused you with my term jumbling. :sad: I don't know how it was I figured this, but somehow I had been mentally thinking of the two things as related parts of the same job!

[Green Arrow]

Oh, duh Polly! *smacks self on head* Wow, I feel incredibly stupid right now! :embarrassed::embarrassed:

Sorry Alyosha if I confused you with my term jumbling. :sad:

It's okay, you were half right. They both dig up really old shit :tongue:

[Alyosha]

IMPress Polly

In Dragon Age, they made everyone technically bisexual so your player could be straight, gay, or bi. They should have just kept with that. Bending to rules about how many gays, straights, bis and now PANSEXUAL, ASEXUAL, GrayFogsexual etc in the world means you either have to have 6x the characters, wait 5x as long for the games or kill the development team.

At a certain point people need to realize they're just not going to exactly what they want.

[Common]

I'm so $#@!ing glad I grew up in an earlier generation.

Honestly, $#@! this.

This new world is full of petty and VICIOUS crap, the online community and young people bearing their soul and their behinds with selfies all over the place.
Since gay marriage every handful of people with an aberrancy believe they have the right to abuse the other 99.9999 % just because THEY are different. Man

On another note ive been an avid gamer since the hottest thing on the block was pinball, of which I was a wizard. Ive played vid games since pong on my depts 8086 :) yeah I had it like that because I didnt have a clue what else to do with it at that point.

When online chat first started with IRC and then ICQ there were ALWAYS rifts and fights and yadayada yada. Anyone thats played mmorphs knows what chat looks like and any Long time world of warcraft players know what barrens chat was. Its going to get worse not better

[Green Arrow]

This new world is full of petty and VICIOUS crap, the online community and young people bearing their sole and their behinds with selfies all over the place.
Since gay marriage every handful of people with an aberrancy believe they have the right to abuse the other 99.9999 % just because THEY are different. Man

On another note ive been an avid gamer since the hottest thing on the block was pinball, of which I was a wizard. Ive played vid games since pong on my depts 8086 :) yeah I had it like that because I didnt have a clue what else to do with it at that point.

When online chat first started with IRC and then ICQ there were ALWAYS rifts and fights and yadayada yada. Anyone thats played mmorphs knows what chat looks like and any Long time world of warcraft players know what barrens chat was. Its going to get worse not better

I fucking loved Barrens chat, man. Even Robin Williams trolled Barrens chat. It was legendary.

[Common]

I $#@!ing loved Barrens chat, man. Even Robin Williams trolled Barrens chat. It was legendary.

lol yep and there were other national figures, that declared themselves in barrens chat but many didnt believe them. A couple I did believe.

MAN I miss the world pvp at the crossroads and tarren mills-southshore wars, I know you remember that GA. Vanilla was so much fun.

[Green Arrow]

lol yep and there were other national figures, that declared themselves in barrens chat but many didnt believe them. A couple I did believe.

MAN I miss the world pvp at the crossroads and tarren mills-southshore wars, I know you remember that GA. Vanilla was so much fun.

Hell yes. You know they brought that back? Tarren Mill vs. Southshore, I mean. It's a new level 90-100 battleground to commemorate the 10th anniversary of WoW. They also made a level 100 version of Molten Core.

[Common]

Hell yes. You know they brought that back? Tarren Mill vs. Southshore, I mean. It's a new level 90-100 battleground to commemorate the 10th anniversary of WoW. They also made a level 100 version of Molten Core.

yep but so far there hasnt been much action there. Ashran is just a big mess, all you get are bones for your gladiator bldg in your garrison and artifacts for rep.

I havent been in molten core yet theyre given a two headed dog mount. You still play GA ?

[Green Arrow]

yep but so far there hasnt been much action there. Ashran is just a big mess, all you get are bones for your gladiator bldg in your garrison and artifacts for rep.

I havent been in molten core yet theyre given a two headed dog mount. You still play GA ?

Oh yeah. Already have a level 100 Blood Elf Death Knight, and I'm working on getting my Draenei Paladin (currently level 96) up there too.

[Common]

Oh yeah. Already have a level 100 Blood Elf Death Knight, and I'm working on getting my Draenei Paladin (currently level 96) up there too.

I have two 100s and one 92 and one 93. I had 15 90s one of each horde and 4 90 allies.

[Common]

I got in with my rogue on haomarush, my main server isnt even in the list.

[Green Arrow]

I have two 100s and one 92 and one 93. I had 15 90s one of each horde and 4 90 allies.

I play all Horde on Uther and all Alliance on Eldre'Thalas, though I might also be opening some doors on Thorium Brotherhood soon. I have:

Horde - Uther:
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
90 Forsaken Priest
90 Pandaren Monk
90 Blood Elf Paladin
86 Blood Elf Hunter
70 Orc Warrior
48 Pandaren Shaman
32 Blood Elf Rogue
23 Orc Warlock
20 Tauren Druid
6 Troll Mage

Alliance - Eldre'Thalas:
96 Draenei Paladin
90 Dwarf Death Knight
87 Draenei Shaman
58 Draenei Warrior
21 Worgen Druid
21 Worgen Hunter
10 Gnome Warlock
1 Night Elf Priest
1 Human Rogue
1 Human Mage
1 Pandaren Monk

[Common]

Terrokar Horde
100 Hunter Elune 4 90s Alliance Haomarush 1 90 horde
100 Druid
94 DK
93 Palley
90 of every other race

[IMPress Polly]

Alyosha wrote:
@IMPress Polly (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=399)

In Dragon Age, they made everyone technically bisexual so your player could be straight, gay, or bi. They should have just kept with that. Bending to rules about how many gays, straights, bis and now PANSEXUAL, ASEXUAL, GrayFogsexual etc in the world means you either have to have 6x the characters, wait 5x as long for the games or kill the development team.

At a certain point people need to realize they're just not going to exactly what they want.

@Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/members/863-Alyosha)

As I recently discussed here (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/34359-An-immature-medium), I don't think players should always get what they want, including to select whatever character they want to play as, because I find that kind of player entitlement detrimental to the advancement of art! But it's hard for games to advance as an art form right now when the AAA console games that game geeks you like you and I enjoy the most cost millions of dollars to make. That kind of mandatory investment tends to steer game-makers in the industry proper away from taking risks by forwarding their own ideas and instead just surveying the 18-24 demographic to see what's popular with them and designing games to match the results, as to guarantee mass consumption of their products. Pretty much only in the world of indie games and online downloadables will one find more creativity than that, but most of those are casual games, not true art games. The simple fact of the matter is that costs need to go down before you're realistically going to see a major flourishing of true art games (titles in which the game revolves around telling a story instead of the other way around). My single biggest complain about the status quo is that there used to be more story-driven games when standard production costs were lower. Now damn near every RPG even has to revolve around maximizing player freedom instead because that's more commercially viable that making a thought-provoking game!

The game police are another consequence of the player empowerment movement. They are the narrow-minded "majority must rule" people who feel that games should be the same yesterday, today, and forever; that they should all be sequels and remakes with the same cast of characters, the same stories, the same game play structure, and the same community, and just can't stand the fact that they're not; that things are changing; that other people are taking up gaming as a hobby and that non-traditional demographics are making games now too. And 'oh no, there's a game about living with depression out now, and what kind of loser might benefit from that? (Hint hint, right here!) Let's just stick with happy-go-lucky Mario, go rescue the princess, and never again consider this idea of making games that are deeper than a puddle!' ...I'm against that kind of conservative entitlement because it stifles creativity!

What I'm suggesting here definitely isn't that every game needs to have something for everyone, but more in essence that game-makers should be allowed to market to non-traditional demographics if they want to (including exclusively if they so choose!) instead of the majority of the gaming community, controlled evidently by outsiders thereto, having to always rule; something you seem to be against simply because you are represented in the current status quo of games like Dragon Age (which, fun though it certainly appears, I don't think qualifies as a true art game). And yeah, I feel that unrepresented people (much unlike those who are overrepresented, as the Gamergater demographic is) have the right to complain about never being represented too.

When I hear these news stories about gamers attempting to, for example, kill Anita Saarkesian and her whole family because they just can't stand the contents of her culture critiques -- the fact that she criticizes the gaming world for being too exclusive and discriminatory in its mentality -- I can't help but be repelled and wonder why anyone would want to identify themselves with the corresponding movement. That is what going too far to get your way looks like in my book!

[Paperback Writer]

My only issue with Bioware games, yes I play them, is that the writing staff is homosexual and it shows. It would be nice if they were homosexual and it not show. I don't need or require social justice in gaming, nor do I need to be educated in social justice and equality if I just want to fight dragons.

Having gay characters is not my concern. Same sex predilection is a natural element to the human condition. When it is everywhere in media it also inflates its importance and we're forced to hear about it in a way which promotes this subconscious idea that they are 50% of the population and we must actively consider their sexuality. I believe that everyone's sexuality should be secondary to their personality.

What we tend to have in their games is this inescapable reminder of the present whilst trying to play a game set in a medieval past. If I wanted to be reminded of modern life I would choose one of their futuristic games such as Mass Effect where I have no issue with homosexuality being prominent as I can imagine a future where overpopulation means "breeders" are not as necessary.

Having said all that, there are gay and bisexual gamers who have money and want to play games like everyone else. This is why I agree with Rina that they should have kept their earlier approach to sexuality cos right now I have to deal with the Iron Bull and Dorian flirting behind me else leave one of them at base.

[IMPress Polly]

Well of course YOU, as a heterosexual white guy, "don't need or require social justice in gaming" because fairness is bad for you! How would you like it if you had no choice but to play as say a transgendered individual in every game? Okay, now with that in mind, how do you think transgendered people, for example, feel about having to play as people of conventional genders in every game? You kinda see what I'm saying? It matters not to you because it isn't you. If it were, you might think differently.

You whine about how it's not logical for gay people to exist in a medieval context, yet they most assuredly did and were simply socially trapped "in the closet, as they say. And besides, you are perfectly willing to suspend your disbelief when it comes to the existence of dragons and orcs and monsters and magic of all kinds, so I'm pretty sure that realism isn't truly the issue for you.

Again, not that every game needs to be that way by any stretch of the imagination! But I'm simply highlighting the legitimacy of complaints by marginalized people concerning the general absence of representation.

[Green Arrow]

I'm not heterosexual in the slightest and I think it's gotten a bit ridiculous, too. Personally, I like to roleplay my characters. I love men just as much as women, but does that mean every one of my characters have to? Of course not. That's one reason I prefer the sexually ambivalent environment of World of Warcraft, where characters are neither gay nor straight, they are whatever you imagine them to be.

[Peter1469]

I never got into online games. I am glad. :smiley:

[Alyosha]

Well of course YOU, as a heterosexual white guy, "don't need or require social justice in gaming" because fairness is bad for you! How would you like it if you had no choice but to play as say a transgendered individual in every game? Okay, now with that in mind, how do you think transgendered people, for example, feel about having to play as people of conventional genders in every game? You kinda see what I'm saying? It matters not to you because it isn't you. If it were, you might think differently.



I don't require it, either. It's nice to have, but at this point I've played as a hedgehog who never has sex with anyone. I'm not a hedgehog and I do have sex. In fact, I love being a hedgehog who never gets laid.

I am glad to be Lara Croft or a female gray warden but my sexual preference is not required in a game for me to have a good time.

Bioware has gone too far with it. In Skyrim you can marry whoever you want because that's not the point of the game. Fighting dragons is. So your desire to marry a guy, a girl, or a guy lizard, a guy cat, etc is all superfluous to fighting dragons.

I like that.

[Green Arrow]

When I still played Star Wars: The Old Republic, you could romance NPCs and your own followers (once you got enough affection with them), and then when Rise of the Hutt Cartel expansion came out, you had the option of romancing some same-sex companions and NPCs, too. I didn't mind that. My Jedi characters didn't romance anyone, except the one Jedi I turned to the Dark Side. My Sith and my Smuggler/Bounty Hunter characters didn't like to just romance one individual. My Trooper and Imperial Agent had one person romanced.

[CreepyOldDude]

My only issue with Bioware games, yes I play them, is that the writing staff is homosexual and it shows.

Wait, what?

How do you know they're all homosexual, and how does it show? I've played several of their games, and haven't noticed any rampant homosexuality.

They make excellent games, although I'll grant you that the logic to the ending of Mass Effect 3 was seriously flawed.

(Edited to hide the fact that I wrote Bioshock Infinite, when I meant Mass Effect 3. Give me a break, I'm old. :) )

[Alyosha]

Wait, what?

How do you know they're all homosexual, and how does it show? I've played several of their games, and haven't noticed any rampant homosexuality.

They make excellent games, although I'll grant you that the logic to the ending of Mass Effect 3 was seriously flawed.

(Edited to hide the fact that I wrote Bioshock Infinite, when I meant Mass Effect 3. Give me a break, I'm old. :) )

David Gaider is the lead writer and is an open homosexual and their staff of writers are 75% openly homosexual, as well. Its not a secret.

Gaider reminds me of Joss Wheden in his ability to just write well, regardless. I like him a lot. My issue with Bioware, though, is not the fact that they're doing it proportionately (2 romantic leads for straight males, 2 romantic leads for straight females, 1 romantic lead for gay males 1 bisexual male option, 1 romantic lead for lesbians 1 bisexual option, 2 bisexual option or 4 depending) but the whole romance thing in general.

I don't want romance in my game. I go to my game to escape. When you turn down Anders as a male of female in DA:2 he's a little bitch about it and so is Isabella. You'll even lose her in the game after act 2 if you don't either fuck her or handle her with kid gloves.

You can inadvertently end up in the same fucking mess you are in real life if you are nice to the wrong person who is too needy--only all the characters are needy.

I wish it was available that you can turn off romantic options altogether.

[CreepyOldDude]

LOL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gamergate_controversy

http://www.forbes.com/sites/quora/2014/10/13/what-is-gamergate-and-how-did-it-blow-up-into-such-a-giant-conspiracy/

http://jezebel.com/gamergate-trolls-arent-ethics-crusaders-theyre-a-hate-1644984010

I guess there is a war in the gaming community between old school (heterosexual male) gamers and female, transgender, and alternative sex players.

WOW. Why can't games be games?

Considering that I've been playing computer games since the late 60s, I think I qualify as old school. I've known a fair number of female and gay gamers since the early days, so I think they'd count as old school, as well.

As far as I can see, most of those throwing a conniption about the whole thing are sad, lonely, virgins.

[CreepyOldDude]

Apparently "cisgender" just means you are whatever gender you were "assigned" at birth. Transgender folks were born male or female but believe they are the opposite gender they were born as, whereas cisgender folks would be whatever gender they were born as.

Which makes it even dumber, because it's like inventing a whole new word just to say "man" or "woman."

Agreed.

I got into it with a guy that referred to me as a cismale, and I stopped him to point out that it was just "male", not "cismale", and he explained that saying I was a "normal" male was offensive to transgendered people. I pointed out that I hadn't said "normal" male, but just "male", and that was quite enough information for my gender name to convey. And I didn't need to know any more about his gender than male.

[Alyosha]

Agreed.

I got into it with a guy that referred to me as a cismale, and I stopped him to point out that it was just "male", not "cismale", and he explained that saying I was a "normal" male was offensive to transgendered people. I pointed out that I hadn't said "normal" male, but just "male", and that was quite enough information for my gender name to convey. And I didn't need to know any more about his gender than male.


Transgendered people need to realize that their fight is very different than sexual preference and that not all of us are going to give them what they want insofar as language use and feelings. I will admit to being a bitch about this one.

As a female and member of a historically persecuted sex, someone who has to endure a menses every month with cramps, with bloating, with all the breakout pimple bullshit that happens once a month, and the potential to get accidentally knocked up and therefore have to worry about taking extra hormones each month to prevent that and worry about things like breast cancer...sorry but they're transwomen and I'm a regular woman and they can be offended if they want.

I'm offended that they think we're the same.

Gender is a construct. It is not biology. I don't like pink. I don't like "girlie" things. I don't "think" female. I am female.

[CreepyOldDude]

David Gaider is the lead writer and is an open homosexual and their staff of writers are 75% openly homosexual, as well. Its not a secret.

Gaider reminds me of Joss Wheden in his ability to just write well, regardless. I like him a lot. My issue with Bioware, though, is not the fact that they're doing it proportionately (2 romantic leads for straight males, 2 romantic leads for straight females, 1 romantic lead for gay males 1 bisexual male option, 1 romantic lead for lesbians 1 bisexual option, 2 bisexual option or 4 depending) but the whole romance thing in general.

I don't want romance in my game. I go to my game to escape. When you turn down Anders as a male of female in DA:2 he's a little $#@! about it and so is Isabella. You'll even lose her in the game after act 2 if you don't either $#@! her or handle her with kid gloves.

You can inadvertently end up in the same $#@!ing mess you are in real life if you are nice to the wrong person who is too needy--only all the characters are needy.

I wish it was available that you can turn off romantic options altogether.

You don't need romance to have needy NPCs. Look at Liberty City. You can't run 5 blocks in the game, without your cell ringing, and some one of your friends or relatives whining that you haven't talked or hung out for at least 20 minutes now. And if you don't talk to them, or hang out with them, they get pissy.

I've never played DA, but I liked the option of having a romance in ME. You don't have to, but if you want to, you can.

[Alyosha]

Considering that I've been playing computer games since the late 60s, I think I qualify as old school. I've known a fair number of female and gay gamers since the early days, so I think they'd count as old school, as well.

As far as I can see, most of those throwing a conniption about the whole thing are sad, lonely, virgins.

Meme. Gamer guys get laid today even the ones that don't want to deal with gays in the game with them. They may be dicks, but it doesn't help to say they're all virgins.

I'm glad gay and lesbian players get included in games. It's as it should be since they exist in real life. What I don't think needs to happen 100% of the time is that we are forced to have educational experiences by virtue of paying $50 to fight dragons.

As I said, Skyrim lets you marry whatever race you want, whatever sex you want. That should be enough for everyone without the lecture. We wouldn't play video games if something wasn't missing in real life. That is the element of leaving modernity behind.

OR if you want to create social justice in gaming, slap a warning label on it that you intend to be politically correct when fighting demons.

[Green Arrow]

Transgendered people need to realize that their fight is very different than sexual preference and that not all of us are going to give them what they want insofar as language use and feelings. I will admit to being a bitch about this one.

As a female and member of a historically persecuted sex, someone who has to endure a menses every month with cramps, with bloating, with all the breakout pimple bullshit that happens once a month, and the potential to get accidentally knocked up and therefore have to worry about taking extra hormones each month to prevent that and worry about things like breast cancer...sorry but they're transwomen and I'm a regular woman and they can be offended if they want.

I'm offended that they think we're the same.

Gender is a construct. It is not biology. I don't like pink. I don't like "girlie" things. I don't "think" female. I am female.

I had a straight white male liberal friend tell me (yes, he knows I'm bisexual) I ought to apologize to transgender people for saying, and I quote:

Transgender people have a mental condition. They are whatever gender they were "assigned," they are just gay and because of societal pressure, don't want to be gay. They need help, not enabling.

I told him where he could shove it.

[Alyosha]

You don't need romance to have needy NPCs. Look at Liberty City. You can't run 5 blocks in the game, without your cell ringing, and some one of your friends or relatives whining that you haven't talked or hung out for at least 20 minutes now. And if you don't talk to them, or hang out with them, they get pissy.

I've never played DA, but I liked the option of having a romance in ME. You don't have to, but if you want to, you can.


Mass Effect got trashed because of the romance for straight female gamers. Part of the problem now with this balanced approach.

My point is that in Dragon Age (the developers acknowledge this) that they make Anders a whiny, pouty bitch if you don't want to romance him and it's just less enjoyable throughout the game. I don't want to date people in my game.

IF, however, they made an option to punch the shit out of Anders or pimp slap him and say: Snap out of it! Get your shit together, fool!

Then I'd be for romance in the game.

[Alyosha]

I had a straight white male liberal friend tell me (yes, he knows I'm bisexual) I ought to apologize to transgender people for saying, and I quote:

Transgender people have a mental condition. They are whatever gender they were "assigned," they are just gay and because of societal pressure, don't want to be gay. They need help, not enabling.

I told him where he could shove it.


I agree with you. Society has told us that males act like A and females act like B when that's not the case at all. Drag queens can be fabulously "female" from a gender construct perspective, but am I like that? No. Although, some days I wish I could be. :(

[CreepyOldDude]

Meme. Gamer guys get laid today even the ones that don't want to deal with gays in the game with them. They may be dicks, but it doesn't help to say they're all virgins.

I'm glad gay and lesbian players get included in games. It's as it should be since they exist in real life. What I don't think needs to happen 100% of the time is that we are forced to have educational experiences by virtue of paying $50 to fight dragons.

As I said, Skyrim lets you marry whatever race you want, whatever sex you want. That should be enough for everyone without the lecture. We wouldn't play video games if something wasn't missing in real life. That is the element of leaving modernity behind.

OR if you want to create social justice in gaming, slap a warning label on it that you intend to be politically correct when fighting demons.

Lots of gamers get laid. Most gamers get laid. But most gamers aren't getting all bent out of shape by a woman saying the same things they didn't notice a guy saying just a few months earlier.

As I said, and stand by, most of the gamers I've seen losing their minds over gamergate act like 13 year old virgins who still hate girls. Enough so that I strongly suspect that they are, in fact, 13 year old virgins who still hate girls.

[Blackrook]

I'm glad I don't play games anymore. People should leave sex in the bedroom, and not drag it into a game that children are playing.

[kilgram]

I'm glad I don't play games anymore. People should leave sex in the bedroom, and not drag it into a game that children are playing.

Games can be for adults. And I ama little tired of conservative having problems with sex but not with violence.

Отправлено с моего MT15i через Tapatalk

[IMPress Polly]

Well seeing as how this is pretty much me against the world here, I don't think there's any point in responding to everything because the amount of opposition to my standpoint is kind of overwhelming. I can't take on the whole world by myself and, as such, kinda feel like quitting this thread right now, but I guess I'll just address a few things:


Alyosha wrote:
Transgendered people need to realize that their fight is very different than sexual preference and that not all of us are going to give them what they want insofar as language use and feelings. I will admit to being a $#@! about this one.

As a female and member of a historically persecuted sex, someone who has to endure a menses every month with cramps, with bloating, with all the breakout pimple bull$#@! that happens once a month, and the potential to get accidentally knocked up and therefore have to worry about taking extra hormones each month to prevent that and worry about things like breast cancer...sorry but they're transwomen and I'm a regular woman and they can be offended if they want.

I'm offended that they think we're the same.

Gender is a construct. It is not biology. I don't like pink. I don't like "girlie" things. I don't "think" female. I am female.

This is a viewpoint I can sympathize with because it used to be mine, and I mean not long ago at all. I'm kinda like you, I think. Barbies and pony love were never for me. I've always been an adventure/questing fan! In terms of TV preferences for example, I didn't graduate from Strawberry Shortcake directly to Mad About You, Sex and the City, and Friends, but rather from Sonic the Hedgehog and Darkwing Duck to Xena: Warrior Princess, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Hercules: The Legendary Journeys, Star Trek: The Next Generation, and Sailor Moon. Ghost in the Shell: Arise is my favorite new show at present, likewise. I like X-games and martial arts. That's just part of who I am. I like action, adventure, science fiction, and fantasy. I'm not a so-called girlie girl by nature. Neither do I consider myself a tomboy for that matter, as I also have a very real gentle, nurturing side that finds expression in how I prefer to communicate with people (civility, flight over fight, etc., as the rule) and in my final choice of career as an educator as well, but my point here is that I get the frustration with feeling like society is trying to pidgeonhole you into a particular way of being that just doesn't feel like the real you. Accordingly, and I mean as of not long ago, whenever I saw guys describing themselves as women or as transgendered, I would think "brony type". I would think to myself that there's nothing wrong with being a brony type, but that it's offensive to construe that as specifically girly or womanly, as the larger society does. In reality, I just wasn't fully educated on the subject of uncommon genders. I was just assuming that transgendered men were just boys who liked pink and ponies and playing tea party and going to hair salons and the world of high fashion and so forth and that transgendered women conversely were just "tomboys" who likewise couldn't accept the subjectivity of gender and accordingly viewed themselves as men. A little more education on the science of it all, however, revealed to me that none of that is the case: that transgender does not conceptually imply the existence of natural gender roles, but just of uncommon genders, and that it is, in fact, genetic.

How to explain this in lay terms? Think of it this way: if it can be said that one's sex is defined essentially by their private parts, one's gender is defined by the technical structure of their brain. There actually exists a minor difference in the brain structure of men and women. It's not one that really affects behavioral tendencies (i.e. implies natural gender roles that society should confine people to according to gender identification), but it is there. A transgendered man thinks of himself as a woman because he happens to be somebody who was born with a female brain structure, and conversely a transgendered woman thinks of herself as a man because that person was born with a male brain structure. Transgendered men are by no means just a bunch of bronies and transgendered women are by no means just a bunch of so-called tomboys! It's not your behavioral preferences or choices that makes you transgendered, but the technical structure of your brain. There's a reason why, in other words, some boys just naturally "feel like girls" and why some girls naturally "feel like boys". It's not because they do or don't adhere to any alleged opposite-sex roles. Rather, it's because they just simply by instinct feel more closely related to people of their gender identity than they do to people of their sex. That's what the science on the subject is telling us. So yeah it is indeed a natural thing for some people with male private parts to think of themselves as women and for some people with female private parts to think of themselves as men. And no, they don't all get sex-change operations. Some do in order to feel more fully normal, but many, if not most, don't.

On another note, "preference" has nothing to do with one's sexual orientation (as in whether one is gay, straight, or bisexual) either. That is also genetic. I know that in the world of Internet pornography, to quote one such site, "all women are lesbians", and that in the world of conservative religion there are no such things as lesbians, but neither of those things is scientifically true. It's not a matter of individual choice or those "correction" therapies would work (and they don't). There is a closet for sexual minorities to come out of. Same-sex relationships have historically been stigmatized and criminalized for human survival purposes, as more primitive forms of human society required almost constant reproduction in order to successfully create new generations considering that most children died before reaching adulthood. It's not coincidence that it tended to be in the more affluent societies (like the heart of the Roman Empire) where same-sex relationships were tolerated in ancient human civilization. Affluent societies had less to worry about in terms of their ability to reproduce the next generation precisely because they were richer. Well likewise, since the first industrial revolutions, many, many modern human societies have seen it fit to start lifting the aforementioned stigma just as they have seen it fit to tolerate birth control and to extend the definition of childhood to the point of one's full psychological maturity instead of just to the point where one reaches puberty and gains the ability to reproduce. We're better off today than primitive, agrarian societies and don't need to have six or more children within a 30-year lifespan just so that one will survive to adulthood (liberally defined as like 12 years of age). Indeed overpopulation dictates that many people don't need to have children at all anymore. Society can afford for women to leave the domestic scene now that we no longer have to be constantly pregnant. And all this explains why modern society is likewise becoming more tolerant of gay and lesbian people who can't reproduce if they adhere to their instincts. It doesn't mean that sexual minorities haven't historically existed. They've always been there. Society just refused to let them generally adhere to their instincts until recently because it has only fairly recently in the course of human events that it has become this practical to let them.

Now you keep discussing Dragon Age specifically and, not owning those games, I only know so much about those particular titles. However, I can say this much: being part of feminist circles online and elsewhere, the Dragon Age franchise currently enjoys a pretty good reputation amongst feminists overall (as does modern-day Dungeons & Dragons, from which it derives inspiration), and most modern feminists are also proponents of gender equality in the fullest sense, including for people of uncommon gender identification.

I don't really do online gaming anymore, personally. I just download games to my systems online. I don't really join the communities properly, mostly because I dislike having to navigate all this stuff, and that's especially true now that the game police are out there hounding me. Furthermore, if you look at my top five favorite games ever (http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/28056-Your-Five-Favorite-Video-Games), you'll notice that there's not much in the way of romance, sex, or even suggestiveness therein because that's not what I'm usually interested in vis-a-vis video games. There are occasional exceptions though. The biggest one has been the Harvest Moon franchise. Ordinarily I prefer games with a strong adventure/questing component, so sometimes I conversely just wanted to take a break from that and play a more relaxing kind of game and cute simulation franchises like Harvest Moon and Animal Crossing have filled that void. The older Harvest Moon games for the Super NES, Game Boy (nothing discriminatory about naming your game system after a specific sex :rollseyes:) and Nintendo 64 had you play as a male farmer and eventually romance and marry one of a handful of women. I thought it was interesting to see romance from the POV of guys! Then, in the 128-bit console generation, they came out with a second version of that era's Harvest Moon game (Harvest Moon: A Wonderful Life) called Harvest Moon: Another Wonderful Life wherein most everything was the same...except that you played as a girl farmer and got to romance one of a few guys instead. I liked that even better because it felt a little closer to home for me! But there was no version of any of these games for sexual minorities, for example. If you were a lesbian and you wanted to accordingly marry a woman, you were stuck playing the original Wonderful Life with a male protagonist, for example. There really weren't any options for gay and lesbian people back then that I'm aware of. Indeed there were only so many for heterosexual girls even for that matter (and there are still only so many today)! So I mean if I felt that my instincts were and are a little neglected, I can only imagine how neglected gay and lesbian gamers must have felt. It's no fun feeling left out of or marginalized by a community built around something you enjoy! I don't think all games need to have romance or sexuality (in fact I think too many do!) and I don't think all games need to let me play as a girl. (I actually like playing as a guy in many, many games, because it offers a different perspective on things, I find. And frankly about 85% of the games I own structurally compel me to play as a male character for most of or even the whole game.) I do, however, think that some games...maybe 40% at least...should let me select a female character, and preferably one who isn't just an annoying stereotype. And I imagine that sexual minorities and people of marginalized gender identity probably feel the same way about games they like that happen to include romance and sexuality. I think that's understandable. That's all I'm saying.


CreepyOldDude wrote:
As I said, and stand by, most of the gamers I've seen losing their minds over gamergate act like 13 year old virgins who still hate girls. Enough so that I strongly suspect that they are, in fact, 13 year old virgins who still hate girls.

Wishful thinking! In my observation, probably the majority of the Gamergaters are in their 30s and there's lots of direct overlap between that scene and the men's rights / "pick-up artist" reactionary social movement.

[Common]

Id like to make a quick point. Who the hell thinks that every characterization of humanity MUST be represenented in a game and what software company is going to do it.

Black, white, hispanice, homosexual, transgender, polygamists. Uhoh, Im OFFENDED, I WANT AN ITALIAN AMERICAN gaming toon, now he wants a Polish one, HEY IM RUSSIAN I want a russian toon.
Im rich I want a classier toon. GTFO with all this bullshit

Make the games with Male toons, Female, black and white and that covers 99% of all humans. This entire freak show has gotten out of hand in this country, with every handful of something different want to bogarte the rest into doing what they want. ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Green Arrow]

Actually, this kind of reminds me of an argument had on the WoW forums when Blizzard was discussing the new character models. Some people said they wanted some ethnic-looking models instead of just white people faces with various skin tones. Smart people I agree with commented back that Azeroth is a completely different world than our own. We have many different "looks" for humans. Who says Azeroth does? Azeroth won't have Asians or Africans because there is no Asia or Africa in Azeroth. Instead of ethnic humans, we get Draenei, Orcs, Tauren, Blood and Night Elves, Trolls, etc.

Some people just need to use their fucking imagination.

[Paperback Writer]

Polly, I wanted to read that. I really did. Only it's too long. I can't invest that much time into games, and that's sort of my point. They're games, meaning something that ought to be fun.

Those that wish to make a game serious ought to do like the Gamergate girl and take it a step further and make The Serious Gaming Company and then the rest of us can all avoid those games.

[Alyosha]

IMPress Polly

we're just going to have to disagree on this one. Transgendered women are transgendered women, not women. There's nothing wrong with that, but I'm not going to let "woman" be redefined without some foot stomping.

The native American tribes, many of them at least, allowed for a "third" gender or person of both...this is more accurate. There's nothing wrong with choosing how you look to make your insides match, but don't redefine who I am --because that's what this does--based on a gender construct that I have no affinity for.

I am many things. Some are a product of how I developed my mind through individual interests I gravitated to, and some are a product of every day being aware of my vagina, my breasts, and those organs. Whether I can reproduce with them, I've had miscarriages, they are there and intrinsically a part of me.

Lesbians, bisexual women, and straight women share from birth a vagina. We share organs. We share an evolutionary history and a sociological one.

Transgendered women can find their own path as they did in the past and it doesn't have to be mine to be something we should accept and support. They don't need to be called "women" anymore than I need to be called "genius" to know I am. :)

Little humor, but you get my point.

[IMPress Polly]

I'm surrounded by more narrow-minded people. I give up. You all win. Be happy.

[Alyosha]

I'm surrounded by more narrow-minded people. I give up. You all win. Be happy.

Narrow minded is in the eye of the beholder. :)

I think everyone should do their own thing and be happy, just don't tell me who I am or define me by your own expression of yourself. There is an excellent lesbian feminist, I'll post about her later, that describes "woman" and I concur. We are bound together by our vaginas.

[Blackrook]

"We are bound together by our vaginas."

I'm picturing that, and I don't like what I see. :shocked:

[Green Arrow]

I'm surrounded by more narrow-minded people. I give up. You all win. Be happy.

I wouldn't really consider myself narrow-minded. I mean, I believe in a god that flies around with a hammer and a funny hat :tongue:

[Alyosha]

I think you can be so open minded that you become narrow again. :)

[Green Arrow]

I think you can be so open minded that you become narrow again. :)

True, very true.

How are you, dear? PM me and tell me what you've been up to?

[IMPress Polly]

Alyosha wrote:
I think everyone should do their own thing and be happy, just don't tell me who I am or define me by your own expression of yourself. There is an excellent lesbian feminist, I'll post about her later, that describes "woman" and I concur. We are bound together by our vaginas.

I'm not a relativist. I don't think everything is in the eye of the beholder. You can believe the science or not, that's up to you. I'm just telling you what it says.

What most of you people malign as "political correctness" I just call fairness and respect.

Feminism is important to me and everything, and yeah I would like to hear what this woman you're highlighting has to say, but let me also just point out that the movement has gone through changes in orientation over time, generally in the direction of broadening the horizons of the women's liberation movement. We can sum up the Western feminist movement's key junctures this way in essence:

First Wave (Late 19th Century to Early 20th): The movement centrally demands political empowerment for women, mainly in the form of the right to vote. You must know: Susan B. Anthony.

Second Wave (1960s-70s): The movement centrally demands economic empowerment for women, centrally in the form of access to education and careers. You must know: Betty Friedan and Gloria Steinem.

Third Wave (1990s): The movement centrally demands cultural empowerment for women (as in both more and empowering mass media representation, etc.) and increased political empowerment for women (mainly as in the election of more female public officials). I grew up in this era. You must know: Gloria Steinem and Eve Ensler.

Fourth Wave (Post-Great-Recession, i.e. Today): The movement is distinguished by two things: a major focus on bodily autonomy (assailing idealization of the way women's bodies are presented to the masses in cultural venues, defending women's sexual and reproductive rights, attacking rape culture, etc.) and an embrace of intersectionalism, as in to say that it now sees and approaches all forms of social and economic class as interconnected and, as such, believes that the full emancipation of women is impossible absent the inclusion of struggles against things like race and gender discrimination, a labor movement, etc. In other words, the Western feminist movement of today is distinguished by being distinctly left wing in political orientation, valuing increased equality in a pretty general sense. One illustration of this is the National Organization for Women's decision last year to start participating in union organizing as a means of addressing the modern problem of the feminization of poverty that we've seen emerge since the 1970s when the big divorce wave hit. NOW and other feminists of today usually see organizing the working poor (most of whom today are women) along economic class lines as the feminist movement's natural, empowering alternative to the disempowering, conservative solution of just pushing women back into the domestic scene by banning divorce and so forth. In a logically analogous way, the movement has become more inclusive when it comes to issues of race, sexual orientation, nationality, and the politics of uncommon genders, as to avoid past splits in the movement along those lines. Today's feminism is a movement for all women. You must know: Anna Holmes and Anita Saarkesian.

The above, of course, speaks only for the majority of feminists at the given juncture.

[Alyosha]

@IMPress Polly (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=399)

I just disagree. I am very interested in gender studies and I have read countless white papers (mostly by Brits) on transgender and there is no medical diagnosis, just a psychological one. Psychology is just not a hard enough and rigorous enough science for me to say that there is a conclusive definition of it. EDIT: psychology works for sexuality because that is an aspect of a male or female. Transexuality is saying you are meant to be a different biological creature. We should have a medical definition before we allow children to transition.

As to feminism there are many different brands of it and I am not the same type as you. In a way, I consider myself a "kitchen-witch-feminist" and you're sort of an "industrialist feminist".

I tend to find myself more aligning with black feminists than white ones in how I look at things, this could also be that my first experience with "America" is black America.

I believe in everyone receiving politeness and respect, but respect doesn't always mean that you will get your way or that you will be selected. Many times in my life I wasn't "picked" and I learned to get over that and learn from it. I also understand the reality of "forced" politeness and that it oftentimes makes the matter worse.

Hearing in the hall that I got the job because they "needed a female" pissed me off. Hearing that I got ahead because of quotas angered me, but I understand that will be the thought while we have these egalitarian policies. As a professional I'd rather not get a job than get it by a quota because I want the respect that comes with someone knowing that I am better, I do kick ass, etc.

When society is half women, half men then having characters in a game meet that doesn't push anything. When society is 15% gay and half the characters are gay that says "we're trying to do something political here" and straight gamers lose their minds. They don't want a lecture, they want to play a game.

I prefer the Dragon Age Origins approach where it was similar to regular society. You had gay characters, but they were characters who happened to be gay. That's real life. I don't know any gay people. I know people. Oh and some of them happen to be gay.

[Common]

I think you can be so open minded that you become narrow again. :)

Sometimes being so open minded you forget about the other 99.999 humans on the planet that have an opinion too

[IMPress Polly]

Alyosha wrote:
As to feminism there are many different brands of it and I am not the same type as you. In a way, I consider myself a "kitchen-witch-feminist" and you're sort of an "industrialist feminist".

I know! You seem to be on the conservative end of the spectrum when it comes to a range of social issues. For example, you recently explained that you gravitate toward agrarian primitivism in terms of how you think society should be organized. The above is just another example of that kind of holdover conservative mentality, IMO, as have been most comments on this thread, from how we should all just go back to playing nothing but Mario and Zelda because games are just supposed to be fun fun fun not thought-provoking, to how minority groups deserve zero representation in video games because it's 'not realistic for the game' or because they compose less than 50% of the world's population. These, in my personal opinion, are just knee-jerk, emotional reactions to change.

There is room for these types of views in the 'feminist' category, I believe, but you're right when you say that our views and approaches to women's lib are not totally the same.


I believe in everyone receiving politeness and respect, but respect doesn't always mean that you will get your way or that you will be selected.

Where have I proposed that every individual gamer should "always get [their] way"? You keep asserting that that is my position even though I have consistently said otherwise. I think that everyone should have some fair representation somewhere, not in every game. I don't think that's too much to ask. It doesn't specifically have to be in Dragon Age, I'm just making the case for the principle here.

Anyway, I also agree that it's time to just agree to disagree because we're not getting anywhere.