View Full Version : So what happened to our gang of leftist trolls?
Mainecoons
05-17-2012, 06:19 AM
All showed up at the same time and all left pretty much together, no?
Y'all do know the Dems have programs to disrupt conservative boards, right?
I sorta miss them. Stupid can be very entertaining.
Yes I was aware of it MC.....also Politicians have Aides Checking out these Political Chat Boards. I got that straight from some Democratic Aides out of DC. Then a couple of Repubs out of Indy. One Works with some Professor in a think tank at Purdue University. They are told to get the pulse on politics.
Course they don't care for all the BS with the bickering and name calling. But they do report back to whatever pols have them doing it. Also they have commented on how more Americans have become informed of politics thru the net and social networking.
This dont count all those groups affiliated with those parties either. That support them on party and machine action.
Trinnity
05-17-2012, 06:49 AM
I've picked up a bit of gossip about them since I came here. I get the impression they were from DCJ. They're not very nice people and that's an understatement. They don't debate, they just insult. I see that at least two of them are still around. People like that aren't enhancing any forum and are like a toxin. I don't know why they forayed out of their comfort zone - mebbe they were bored.
BlackAsCoal
05-17-2012, 07:18 AM
NEWSFLASH: Posting on a message board is a CHOICE.
When I log onto this site and find nothing of value to discuss .. I go do something else .. which is quite different from those who seemingly spend every waking hour on a message board.
Some of us have jobs and lives.
Some of us also own buisnesses and some of us even have retired after putting in 40-50 yrs of busting one's azz and now basically do anything we want. Like setting up message boards and seeing it become successful.
Where some of us are not constrained by where our technology is. Plus put forth the effort to give our time to "kick-it" with others. Regardless if liked or not.
What did you think a successful site is one that has no activity going on it and no people around to talk with? Most successful sites have a wide diversity of things to talk about and a lot of those things they have in common. Which in order to make that happen. Takes people putting forth effort to do so and remain committed to do so. Otherwise this place would be like the hundreds of others that never got off the ground and folded.
So you are right.....it is people and the choices they decide to make. Or even not make.
Trinnity
05-17-2012, 07:40 AM
BAC, you're one of the nicer lefties from DCJ....there aren't many.
Why so terse ?
BlackAsCoal
05-17-2012, 07:45 AM
Some of us also own buisnesses and some of us even have retired after putting in 40-50 yrs of busting one's azz and now basically do anything we want. Like setting up message boards and seeing it become successful.
Where some of us are not constrained by where our technology is. Plus put forth the effort to give our time to "kick-it" with others. Regardless if liked or not.
What did you think a successful site is one that has no activity going on it and no people around to talk with? Most successful sites have a wide diversity of things to talk about and a lot of those things they have in common. Which in order to make that happen. Takes people putting forth effort to do so and remain committed to do so. Otherwise this place would be like the hundreds of others that never got off the ground and folded.
So you are right.....it is people and the choices they decide to make. Or even not make.
I don't deny any of that .. but whining about others who choose to post only when there is something to talk about hardly considers their choices.
I applaud the efforts here to build and maintain a good site. That wasn't my point.
BlackAsCoal
05-17-2012, 07:47 AM
BAC, you're one of the nicer lefties from DCJ....there aren't many.
Why so terse ?
Thank you .. but I didn't mean to be terse, just to state that everybody makes individual choices of when and where to post. It isn't like we lefties have run away.
I don't deny any of that .. but whining about others who choose to post only when there is something to talk about hardly considers their choices.
I applaud the efforts here to build and maintain a good site. That wasn't my point.
Thanks.....and I am glad you have decided to give us your time as well.
BlackAsCoal
05-17-2012, 07:57 AM
Thanks.....and I am glad you have decided to give us your time as well.
I appreciate that brother .. and I appreciate the opportunity to have these conversations with people whom may disagree with what I have to say.
roadmaster
05-17-2012, 11:40 AM
I don't mind people having different opinions because I like to debate even with the ones I mostly agree with.
Conley
05-17-2012, 11:48 AM
Yep, differing opinions are good, trolls are not.
roadmaster
05-17-2012, 11:53 AM
Yep, differing opinions are good, trolls are not.
I agree!
dsolo802
05-17-2012, 03:47 PM
Good conversation is a rare these days.
Sites where the views are no different from your own, aren't interesting and never provide an opportunity to stretch and learn.
Places where conversation amounts to nothing more than two hardened "sides" each shouting talking points at the other, that is beyond boring - it is dispiriting, destructive and unhealthy.
Where can you go to meet with diverse people in mutual respect and have an honest exchange between people as people? Not too many places are like that any more, and few even attempt to offer it.
Trinnity
05-17-2012, 03:56 PM
Yep, differing opinions are good, trolls are not.What he ^ said. And anyone who's dealt with dada has met a pro. She's downright hateful.
Trinnity
05-17-2012, 03:57 PM
Good conversation is a rare these days.
Sites where the views are no different from your own, aren't interesting and never provide an opportunity to stretch and learn.
Places where conversation amounts to nothing more than two hardened "sides" each shouting talking points at the other, that is beyond boring - it is dispiriting, destructive and unhealthy.
Where can you go to meet with diverse people in mutual respect and have an honest exchange between people as people? Not too many places are like that any more, and few even attempt to offer it.This place is a breath of fresh air.
dsolo, did you leave DCJ ?
Mainecoons
05-17-2012, 04:00 PM
OK, what is DCJ? I googled it and can't find a definition.
Conley
05-17-2012, 04:01 PM
OK, what is DCJ? I googled it and can't find a definition.
DC Junkies, another political site.
Mainecoons
05-17-2012, 04:02 PM
Ah, thank you!
Conley
05-17-2012, 04:06 PM
Ah, thank you!
No problem! Check it out, see what you think (not that I want you to leave here of course! :grin:).
Trinnity
05-17-2012, 04:45 PM
No problem! Check it out, see what you think (not that I want you to leave here of course! :grin:).Wear hip-waders. <shudder>
Mainecoons
05-17-2012, 05:35 PM
No, I can only take so many fools at one time. Maybe they'll come back.
:grin:
Mister D
05-17-2012, 06:08 PM
I've picked up a bit of gossip about them since I came here. I get the impression they were from DCJ. They're not very nice people and that's an understatement. They don't debate, they just insult. I see that at least two of them are still around. People like that aren't enhancing any forum and are like a toxin. I don't know why they forayed out of their comfort zone - mebbe they were bored.
It was actually beneficial. As annoying and unreasonable as some of them were we've picked up some good members. We've separated the wheat from the chaff, so to speak.
Mainecoons
05-17-2012, 07:04 PM
Well Dada was the queen of ad hom for sure. Never had a reasoned rebuttal, just personal attack. I think liberals must go to school for this now, it is so predictable. Anyway, I miss them, it would be fun to see what they have to say about the latest revelation about their mulatto messiah.
The latest but not the last. There are still a few good journalists out there and they are going to out Obama before the election. Watch and see.
Conley
05-17-2012, 07:06 PM
The journalists have had what, five years to find some smoking guns? I'm surprised they haven't been able to find anything concrete, but maybe that says something. The pamphlet is hardly a holy grail, but it's something I guess.
Peter1469
05-17-2012, 07:13 PM
I would imagine that they like Democrat Underground where they only have fellow travelers to deal with.
Mister D
05-17-2012, 07:22 PM
Well Dada was the queen of ad hom for sure. Never had a reasoned rebuttal, just personal attack. I think liberals must go to school for this now, it is so predictable. Anyway, I miss them, it would be fun to see what they have to say about the latest revelation about their mulatto messiah.
The latest but not the last. There are still a few good journalists out there and they are going to out Obama before the election. Watch and see.
I'd like to see what they have to say about the apparent battering that George Zimmerman took at the hands of Trayvon Martin.
Mainecoons
05-17-2012, 07:38 PM
I wanna see what they have to say about that Breitbart revelation today about Obama. Lets see:
Breitbart are xxxx, xxxx, xxxx, xxxx, etc. As if Breitbart wrote the publicity for Obama instead of just reporting it.
Mister D
05-17-2012, 07:57 PM
I wanna see what they have to say about that Breitbart revelation today about Obama. Lets see:
Breitbart are xxxx, xxxx, xxxx, xxxx, etc. As if Breitbart wrote the publicity for Obama instead of just reporting it.
Oh, yeah. Ad hominem is always the first option.
dsolo802
05-17-2012, 08:10 PM
This place is a breath of fresh air.
dsolo, did you leave DCJ ?Yes, too much argument by label. Dueling talking points is deathly boring.
dsolo802
05-17-2012, 08:16 PM
I wanna see what they have to say about that Breitbart revelation today about Obama. Lets see:
Breitbart are xxxx, xxxx, xxxx, xxxx, etc. As if Breitbart wrote the publicity for Obama instead of just reporting it.See what the literary agent her self has said.
I go with the HI officials who have attested to the validity of the birth certificate. That is the test to which every other politician's qualifications have been put. Obama's Kenyan birth is, has been and will always be a frivolous, meritless, hyper-partisan contention.
wingrider
05-17-2012, 11:18 PM
all this is is more distraction from the real issues we face, the more we focus on trivial nonsense the more these fools get away with, while we are argueing trivia they are passing laws that steal our liberties, you all better decide which is more important, cause you got about 6 months to decide in.
Mister D
05-18-2012, 10:02 AM
Good Lord...DCJ is a toilet. Anti-racists, Christ Mythers, name calling galore...:rollseyes:
dsolo802
05-18-2012, 10:13 AM
Good Lord...DCJ is a toilet. Anti-racists, Christ Mythers, name calling galore...:rollseyes:Now you understand.
Mister D
05-18-2012, 10:20 AM
Now you understand.
Sure do. Yikes. I'm not sure what people get out of that unless they are looking for that kind of environment.
Conley
05-18-2012, 10:22 AM
I think a lot of people are looking for that kind of environment, especially online. Definitely not my idea of a good time but if DCJ wants to run their forum that way then so be it. I just don't want that sort of thing to happen over here.
Really I'd think that whoever runs that site must be very patient to put up with all that. I don't imagine it's easy to pay for all that and keep it running - hope they at least treat whoever keeps it running with some gratitude and respect. You guys might think I'm crazy but after seeing all the fighting we've had here I can't help but be a little impressed by the tolerance of that place. They're either very tolerant or they've just abandoned it to semi-anarchy. :laugh:
Mister D
05-18-2012, 10:26 AM
It might be what they expect. I've heard a lot of bad things about the admin "Moby". From what I hear, his bans are usually because he doesn't like you.
Conley
05-18-2012, 10:28 AM
I would guess that's true of most boards.
Mister D
05-18-2012, 10:31 AM
I would guess that's true of most boards.
Probably. It reminds me of Political Hotwire. Maybe 10% of the board's members are worth listening to amid a cacophony of lunacy and stupidity.
dsolo802
05-18-2012, 11:02 AM
Probably. It reminds me of Political Hotwire. Maybe 10% of the board's members are worth listening to amid a cacophony of lunacy and stupidity.You have to look hard to find anything worth responding to. This is the end result when both sides result to argument by label.
Even when there is a middle ground on any issue it will never, ever be found. The partisans on one side or the other will prevent. Such is the influence of our whoring party leadership
Mister D
05-18-2012, 11:12 AM
You have to look hard to find anything worth responding to. This is the end result when both sides result to argument by label.
Even when there is a middle ground on any issue it will never, ever be found. The partisans on one side or the other will prevent. Such is the influence of our whoring party leadership
Yep. I've seen it before. It quickly degenerates into a war between factions.
Conley
05-18-2012, 11:19 AM
The "whoring party leadership" is no doubt to be blamed, but IMO at the end of the day each of us are responsible for deciding if we want to swallow those baited hooks whole or step back and look at the overall process to see we're being duped.
Mister D
05-18-2012, 11:22 AM
The "whoring party leadership" is no doubt to be blamed, but IMO at the end of the day each of us are responsible for deciding if we want to swallow those baited hooks whole or step back and look at the overall process to see we're being duped.
Good point.
dsolo802
05-18-2012, 11:24 AM
Yep. I've seen it before. It quickly degenerates into a war between factions.And that, sadly, is America today
tinkerbell
05-18-2012, 11:50 AM
I am a retired peron who worked hard and paid my own way throught my life. No government help was given to me or mine.
dsolo802
05-18-2012, 12:23 PM
Blue collar here. My family and my wife's were small shop owners and farmers going back generations. I'm the first guy in my family to become a professional. We all know the virtue of work and delivering something of value to a community. IMO, America was best when equal opportunity to work at one's vocation was actually and realistically available. The small business landscape has fundamentally changed. America has changed with it. How do we get that America back?
wingrider
05-18-2012, 02:16 PM
Probably. It reminds me of Political Hotwire. Maybe 10% of the board's members are worth listening to amid a cacophony of lunacy and stupidity.
please watch your language , there are children present.
ramone
05-18-2012, 02:17 PM
Yep, differing opinions are good, trolls are not.
Exactly, and when disruption occurs because of people who have nothing to contribute to a conversation but insults and BS, that is what you get. I like a good debate with people who have opposing opinions too, but in the general forum setting there is no room for trolling. There are other places to do that
ramone
05-18-2012, 02:23 PM
please watch your language , there are children present.
They banned me from PH, I wasn't libertarian enough for the libertarians there. Too right wing for the conservatives and no where near a liberal. No rhyme or reason to that place and I made it easy for them in the end. They took full advantage of it. Screw Political Hotwire and their little group of idiots.
annata
05-18-2012, 02:23 PM
Thank you .. but I didn't mean to be terse, just to state that everybody makes individual choices of when and where to post. It isn't like we lefties have run away.
I'm still here - still at DCJ, , BAC i see is here, i've just been busy, nothing political lately has inyersted me.
I am watching the current World Chess Championship - Snoozefest that it is. ( nothing but draws) -Anand v Gelfand.
annata
05-18-2012, 02:31 PM
Now you understand.
ya well. I saw you thereposted yesterday. Bu it's true i haven't seen you there in awhile This place is smaller, the conversations more along the lines of discourse.
DCJ has some good posters, and since it's larger, some trash talk.
I just take ownership of my posts, and don't worry about others.
Anyways, you and I have known each other for years, even back to the HELL of PG.
I recall you advocating for me to get out of "jail", and we've always been civil with each other. I'd like to keep it that way - im sure we will. :-)
Conley
05-18-2012, 02:31 PM
I'm still here - still at DCJ, , BAC i see is here, i've just been busy, nothing political lately has inyersted me.
I am watching the current World Chess Championship - Snoozefest that it is. ( nothing but draws) -Anand v Gelfand.
Thanks for the update Annata - that must be where another of our posters is, Pendragon. He thought he was quite a gifted player, you may have seen it in the chess thread. :laugh:
ramone
05-18-2012, 02:35 PM
How do we get that America back?
Get rid of Affirmative Action and all the other programs that put unqualified people into positions they would never attain otherwise. Putting unqualified people into a position they can't handle is wrong and robs somebody else of the opportunity to attain that position.
At this point people are being turned down for earned scholarships while others with inferior grades and mentality are being ushered into the University instead. When people are forced to hire inferior help we all suffer.
annata
05-18-2012, 02:36 PM
Thanks for the update Annata - that must be where another of our posters is, Pendragon. He thought he was quite a gifted player, you may have seen it in the chess thread. :laugh:
I read thru it when I arrived, but no games I could find. The Anand v Gelfand match ,,,,they're playing for "gentlemen's draws" -or not to lose.
Honestly yesterdays game was a Sicilian Defense ( sharp opening), and they drew after 27 moves.
But they had oppposite colored boshops, which leads to a drawish positin anyways.
The games a re still GMaster games, and worth watching, but nothing exciting - although even GM drawish games are fun to watch.
You're one of the friendliest persons i've known ( via the Net), thanks.
dsolo802
05-18-2012, 03:05 PM
ya well. I saw you thereposted yesterday. Bu it's true i haven't seen you there in awhile This place is smaller, the conversations more along the lines of discourse.
DCJ has some good posters, and since it's larger, some trash talk.I just couldn't stand it any longer - especially all of Bozo kudzu-like spam. There is discourse here.
I just take ownership of my posts, and don't worry about others.
Anyways, you and I have known each other for years, even back to the HELL of PG.
I recall you advocating for me to get out of "jail", and we've always been civil with each other. I'd like to keep it that way - im sure we will. :-)Happy to be a friend, Annata. That's not going to change.
annata
05-18-2012, 04:16 PM
I just couldn't stand it any longer - especially all of Bozo kudzu-like spam. There is discourse here.
Happy to be a friend, Annata. That's not going to change.
cool. I'm getting a bit weary of the shit flinging there too.
Deadwood
05-18-2012, 06:49 PM
The journalists have had what, five years to find some smoking guns? I'm surprised they haven't been able to find anything concrete, but maybe that says something. The pamphlet is hardly a holy grail, but it's something I guess.
What?
What journalists?
Tell me this, would the New York Times have simply sat back and allowed George Bush Jr. to deny them access to his academic record? This is the most secretive president in the history of the United States, he is an illusion, a ghost, a cardboard cut out with a "perfect past", with all of his history tightly controlled, even his freaking birth certificate.
There are no journalists anymore...the "news" is about celebrities and who had breast implants, not about facts or truth. For sheet sake, if the press was like this during the Nixon era that son-of-a-bitch would still be breaking into opponents headquarters.
dsolo802
05-18-2012, 07:00 PM
What?
What journalists?
Tell me this, would the New York Times have simply sat back and allowed George Bush Jr. to deny them access to his academic record? This is the most secretive president in the history of the United States, he is an illusion, a ghost, a cardboard cut out with a "perfect past", with all of his history tightly controlled, even his freaking birth certificate.
There are no journalists anymore...the "news" is about celebrities and who had breast implants, not about facts or truth. For sheet sake, if the press was like this during the Nixon era that son-of-a-bitch would still be breaking into opponents headquarters.Love your avatar and the spirit for which it stands.
The agent said she got it wrong.
Obama produced exactly the same amount of proof as every other President ever has. My question is: Why do people insist on more now?
If your past is far from perfect you just don't get to be President. In a way, the prospect of running the Press gauntlet pre-qualifies the field.
Conley
05-18-2012, 07:03 PM
What?
What journalists?
Tell me this, would the New York Times have simply sat back and allowed George Bush Jr. to deny them access to his academic record? This is the most secretive president in the history of the United States, he is an illusion, a ghost, a cardboard cut out with a "perfect past", with all of his history tightly controlled, even his freaking birth certificate.
There are no journalists anymore...the "news" is about celebrities and who had breast implants, not about facts or truth. For sheet sake, if the press was like this during the Nixon era that son-of-a-bitch would still be breaking into opponents headquarters.
Fox News, Drudge, Breitbart, there are plenty of folks who would have paid big $$$ for this and made it a huge story. Unless you think they're all part of the conspiracy too?
Trinnity
05-18-2012, 09:04 PM
Obama produced exactly the same amount of proof as every other President ever has. My question is: Why do people insist on more now? I'd like to respond to that, dsolo. He comes across as shady because he's hidden things about him, like college records. He does not inspire trust.
Conley
05-18-2012, 09:07 PM
He's been secretive and criticism/questioning of him has been met with claims of racism. It's unfortunate. I think there's plenty there to criticize, I'm just not hung up on the birth certificate thing. It would be hard to keep such a thing a secret, especially when so many people would have to keep quiet and there would be so much money if someone had the information to sell.
I'd like to respond to that, dsolo. He comes across as shady because he's hidden things about him, like college records. He does not inspire trust.
Nor That transparency that he expounds on, so much about. :wink:
dsolo802
05-18-2012, 09:51 PM
Get rid of Affirmative Action and all the other programs that put unqualified people into positions they would never attain otherwise. Putting unqualified people into a position they can't handle is wrong and robs somebody else of the opportunity to attain that position.
At this point people are being turned down for earned scholarships while others with inferior grades and mentality are being ushered into the University instead. When people are forced to hire inferior help we all suffer.Hires, admittance and access to other opportunity should all be on the basis of merit. Quotas should be unconstitutional - and they have been so held for quite a long time.
Peter1469
05-18-2012, 09:57 PM
Hires, admittance and access to other opportunity should all be on the basis of merit. Quotas should be unconstitutional - and they have been so held for quite a long time.
Dsolo you are really a conservative - and I don't mean a republican.
dsolo802
05-18-2012, 10:17 PM
He does not inspire trust.Trinnity, thank you for explaining. Perception is subjective and for that reason alone cannot logically be disputed. But, hopefully, perception yields to facts, just as rock yields to paper, and paper to scissors. [For Big Bang enthusiasts, I wish to mention Lizard and Spock as well]
I put the Google to work a little bit and was able to come up with some facts that may put this in some perspective.
First off, I wanted to know is this the kind of info that candidates for the Presidency typically produce? It turns out it is not.
It is true that Obama has not released his college transcripts - but the same is true for Eisenhower, Reagan and George W. Bush - in fact for all Presidents as far as I could tell. President Bush in fact did not release his grades, some reporter dug them up.
What is a matter of public record, however is that President Obama made the Dean's list at least once in his undergraduate years, graduated magna cum laude (highest honors) from Harvard Law and was President of the Harvard Law School review, a distinction that is only bestowed on students of the highest academic achievement.
dsolo802
05-18-2012, 10:18 PM
Dsolo you are really a conservative - and I don't mean a republican.I have views that are right of Attila the Hun.
Conley
05-18-2012, 10:21 PM
Trinnity, thank you for explaining. Perception is subjective and for that reason alone cannot logically be disputed. But, hopefully, perception yields to facts, just as rock yields to paper, and paper to scissors. [For Big Bang enthusiasts, I wish to mention Lizard and Spock as well]
I put the Google to work a little bit and was able to come up with some facts that may put this in some perspective.
First off, I wanted to know is this the kind of info that candidates for the Presidency typically produce? It turns out it is not.
It is true that Obama has not released his college transcripts - but the same is true for Eisenhower, Reagan and George W. Bush - in fact for all Presidents as far as I could tell. President Bush in fact did not release his grades, some reporter dug them up.
What is a matter of public record, however is that President Obama made the Dean's list at least once in his undergraduate years, graduated magna cum laude (highest honors) from Harvard Law and was President of the Harvard Law School review, a distinction that is only bestowed on students of the highest academic achievement.
Good info - thank you for doing the leg work for myself and doubtless others as well.
Trinnity, thank you for explaining. Perception is subjective and for that reason alone cannot logically be disputed. But, hopefully, perception yields to facts, just as rock yields to paper, and paper to scissors. [For Big Bang enthusiasts, I wish to mention Lizard and Spock as well]
I put the Google to work a little bit and was able to come up with some facts that may put this in some perspective.
First off, I wanted to know is this the kind of info that candidates for the Presidency typically produce? It turns out it is not.
It is true that Obama has not released his college transcripts - but the same is true for Eisenhower, Reagan and George W. Bush - in fact for all Presidents as far as I could tell. President Bush in fact did not release his grades, some reporter dug them up.
What is a matter of public record, however is that President Obama made the Dean's list at least once in his undergraduate years, graduated magna cum laude (highest honors) from Harvard Law and was President of the Harvard Law School review, a distinction that is only bestowed on students of the highest academic achievement.
Were you able to check out his public record from Colombia? Just how does one go from being an Average Student to graduating Magna cum laude from Harvard. At Colombia he was Studying Foreign Relations.
dsolo802
05-18-2012, 10:44 PM
Were you able to check out his public record from Colombia? Just how does one go from being an Average Student to graduating Magna cum laude from Harvard. At Colombia he was Studying Foreign Relations.I was a pretty average student at a State University undergrad, and went on to graduate with honors at law school. People get motivated at different times.
There is no question whatsoever about his graduating for top honors from Harvard University School of Law. None.
I was a pretty average student at a State University undergrad, and went on to graduate with honors at law school. People get motivated at different times.
There is no question whatsoever about his graduating for top honors from Harvard University School of Law. None.
I don't question that he did so at Harvard. Like I said before.....I knew the Guy that was the Shit at Harvard right before Obama graduated and became Head of the Law Review. He was a Jag Officer for the US Army. Whom he has known Michelle long before she became an Obama and can tell you. She is the Smarter of the Two.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 12:42 AM
I don't question that he did so at Harvard. Like I said before.....I knew the Guy that was the Shit at Harvard right before Obama graduated and became Head of the Law Review. He was a Jag Officer for the US Army. Whom he has known Michelle long before she became an Obama and can tell you. She is the Smarter of the Two.ok.
Conley
05-19-2012, 05:38 AM
I was a pretty average student at a State University undergrad, and went on to graduate with honors at law school. People get motivated at different times.
There is no question whatsoever about his graduating for top honors from Harvard University School of Law. None.
Excellent point - motivation and the work ethic is what it's about at this level, most everyone is smart.
Mainecoons
05-19-2012, 06:53 AM
There is no question whatsoever about his graduating for top honors from Harvard University School of Law. None.
Oh, you've seen the transcripts? Link please.
Excellent point - motivation and the work ethic is what it's about at this level, most everyone is smart.
So then, in Obama's case what happened to that motivation and work ethic? :undecided: :evil:
BlackAsCoal
05-19-2012, 07:21 AM
Trinnity, thank you for explaining. Perception is subjective and for that reason alone cannot logically be disputed. But, hopefully, perception yields to facts, just as rock yields to paper, and paper to scissors. [For Big Bang enthusiasts, I wish to mention Lizard and Spock as well]
I put the Google to work a little bit and was able to come up with some facts that may put this in some perspective.
First off, I wanted to know is this the kind of info that candidates for the Presidency typically produce? It turns out it is not.
It is true that Obama has not released his college transcripts - but the same is true for Eisenhower, Reagan and George W. Bush - in fact for all Presidents as far as I could tell. President Bush in fact did not release his grades, some reporter dug them up.
What is a matter of public record, however is that President Obama made the Dean's list at least once in his undergraduate years, graduated magna cum laude (highest honors) from Harvard Law and was President of the Harvard Law School review, a distinction that is only bestowed on students of the highest academic achievement.
After being out of school for about 5 years, how did he become the editor of the Harvard Law Review? He was a bad student at Columbia? He was at most an indifferent student .. at the very least, a bad student. He is not credited with writing a single thing in any law review at any time.
What were his LSAT scores?
Did his time working for the CIA after Columbia have any influence on his acceptance at Harvard?
I make no issue of whether Obama is an American. Of course he is. But your research on him left a lot of stones unturned.
I don't think it said he was a bad student at Colombia.....just average. Most of the courses dealt with relationships and protocol for dealing with Foreign Dignataries. How Ambassadors and Special Envoys work etc etc.
BlackAsCoal
05-19-2012, 07:42 AM
I don't think it said he was a bad student at Colombia.....just average. Most of the courses dealt with relationships and protocol for dealing with Foreign Dignataries. How Ambassadors and Special Envoys work etc etc.
Put it this way .. he was an unspectacular student .. recieved no honors at Columbia.
The notion that Obama was an academic genius seems fairly unfounded.
annata
05-19-2012, 07:46 AM
but he is a smart politician...I'm dissapointed his "i wouldn't go into Iraq" meant he would go into damn near any other country.
Look up Yemen Civil war -US troops there now.
Put it this way .. he was an unspectacular student .. recieved no honors at Columbia.
The notion that Obama was an academic genius seems fairly unfounded.
I would definately agree with you.....plus I think we can see he has no Leadership Skills.
Shoot the Goose
05-19-2012, 08:36 AM
............ and was President of the Harvard Law School review, a distinction that is only bestowed on students of the highest academic achievement.
That is incorrect. The "highest academic achievement" did matter once, but that ended before Obama. There is quite a bit of evidence that Obama was the recipient of Affirmative Action to get that post.
Until the 1970’s the editors were picked on the basis of grades, and the president of the Law Review was the student with the highest academic rank. Among these were Elliot L. Richardson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elliot_Richardson), the former Attorney General, and Irwin Griswold, a dean of the Harvard Law School (http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=42.3779722222,-71.1185&spn=0.01,0.01&q=42.3779722222,-71.1185 (Harvard Law School)&t=h) and Solicitor General under Presidents Lyndon B. Johnson and Richard M. Nixon (http://www.lyst.com/nixon).
That system came under attack in the 1970’s and was replaced by a program in which about half the editors are chosen for their grades and the other half are chosen by fellow students after a special writing competition. The new system, disputed when it began, was meant to help insure that minority students became editors of The Law Review.
http://theobamahustle.wordpress.com/2012/05/10/how-obama-had-managed-to-become-the-president-of-the-harvard-law-review-without-publishing-anything-of-his-own/
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 09:07 AM
After being out of school for about 5 years, how did he become the editor of the Harvard Law Review? He was a bad student at Columbia? He was at most an indifferent student .. at the very least, a bad student. He is not credited with writing a single thing in any law review at any time.
What were his LSAT scores?
Did his time working for the CIA after Columbia have any influence on his acceptance at Harvard?
I make no issue of whether Obama is an American. Of course he is. But your research on him left a lot of stones unturned.
How did the editor of the Harvard Law review not publish an article? I was the business editor of the Tulane Maritime Law Review and published an article.
https://litigation-essentials.lexisnexis.com/webcd/app?action=DocumentDisplay&crawlid=1&doctype=cite&docid=21+Tul.+Mar.+L.+J.+537&srctype=smi&srcid=3B15&key=5ceca70c581ea160a67da0e9f7bfb819
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 11:23 AM
After being out of school for about 5 years, how did he become the editor of the Harvard Law Review? He was a bad student at Columbia? He was at most an indifferent student .. at the very least, a bad student. He is not credited with writing a single thing in any law review at any time.
What were his LSAT scores?
Did his time working for the CIA after Columbia have any influence on his acceptance at Harvard?
I make no issue of whether Obama is an American. Of course he is. But your research on him left a lot of stones unturned.BAC, c'mon - you think Obama is an American? What?
To my knowledge, no President has released their academic records. So my research on Obama is as sketchy as my research on Reagan, Eisenhower and Ford, Kennedy, Carter, G. H. W. Bush, Nixon and George Bush. No more full, and no less either.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 11:38 AM
How did the editor of the Harvard Law review not publish an article? I was the business editor of the Tulane Maritime Law Review and published an article.
https://litigation-essentials.lexisnexis.com/webcd/app?action=DocumentDisplay&crawlid=1&doctype=cite&docid=21+Tul.+Mar.+L.+J.+537&srctype=smi&srcid=3B15&key=5ceca70c581ea160a67da0e9f7bfb819And the answer is, actually he did write an article for the law review:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12705.html
For an interesting review of Obama's tenure as editor and insight into his legal and political philosophy - some of which will surely surprise the people here - check this out:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11257.html
Trinnity
05-19-2012, 12:14 PM
I don't question that he did so at Harvard. Like I said before.....I knew the Guy that was the Shit at Harvard right before Obama graduated and became Head of the Law Review. He was a Jag Officer for the US Army. Whom he has known Michelle long before she became an Obama and can tell you. She is the Smarter of the Two.I don't doubt it. I think at heart (and not so hidden), he's a slacker.
BUT smart and manipulative can be a negative, and she and Jarret are just that. They drove off some of his best advisers, and now it's just those two running the show for him. I think they're screwing it all up.
I have absolutely no doubt that he's a Marxist and has a big racist chip on his shoulder - believes in the Black Liberation Theology shiz. But, he's more ambitious than wise.
A narcissist, a sociopath - that's right, I meant it - but a slacker who has done what was required of him and little more on his own initiative. All his life he's been told he's special. He reeks of it.
http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/KgGVM1yyRUV2s1vwE3IsmA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zNDQ7cT04NTt3PTQ1MA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2012-05-16T011629Z_3_CBRE84E1SV100_RTROPTP_2_OBAMA.JPG
spunkloaf
05-19-2012, 12:30 PM
What he ^ said. And anyone who's dealt with dada has met a pro. She's downright hateful.
You're making some pretty negative and hateful comments about people, there. Are you trying to pick a fight? Or what are you trying to accomplish with these comments of yours?
spunkloaf
05-19-2012, 12:31 PM
I don't doubt it. I think at heart (and not so hidden), he's a slacker.
BUT smart and manipulative can be a negative, and she and Jarret are just that. They drove off some of his best advisers, and now it's just those two running the show for him. I think they're screwing it all up.
I have absolutely no doubt that he's a Marxist and has a big racist chip on his shoulder - believes in the Black Liberation Theology shiz. But, he's more ambitious than wise.
A narcissist, a sociopath - that's right, I meant it - but a slacker who has done what was required of him and little more on his own initiative. All his life he's been told he's special. He reeks of it.
http://l2.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/KgGVM1yyRUV2s1vwE3IsmA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9aW5zZXQ7aD0zNDQ7cT04NTt3PTQ1MA--/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/Reuters/2012-05-16T011629Z_3_CBRE84E1SV100_RTROPTP_2_OBAMA.JPG
More negative and hateful comments, and these don't even have any merit to them. What are you trying to accomplish here?
spunkloaf
05-19-2012, 12:33 PM
All showed up at the same time and all left pretty much together, no?
Y'all do know the Dems have programs to disrupt conservative boards, right?
I sorta miss them. Stupid can be very entertaining.
You just called other members stupid. Noted.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 12:40 PM
I have absolutely no doubt that he's a Marxist and has a big racist chip on his shoulderNo doubt? Where do you even have a hint of evidence he is a racist?
Marxist? Against his own party's urging, he proposed the purely private sector solution once urged by Heritage Foundation and implemented by Governor Romney in Massachusetts. His tax policies compare with Reagan's and Eisenhowers tax politices. Marxist? Ridiculous hyper-partisan tripe.
Narcissist ?
Sociopath? Really????
Obama as Hitler is beneath the intelligence of the people on this Board.
Folks, honesty is a virtue we can all agree upon. Let's use that. I will go wherever the facts and truth take me. Who else will also take that pledge?
Can we all step away from the partisan rhetoric and cheap innuendo and stay focused on the facts?
Trinnity, I thought you didn't want to recreate the "DCJ experience"?
Conley
05-19-2012, 12:44 PM
I don't agree with him being a Marxist. I think his attendance at Reverend Wright's church raises the possibility that he is somewhat racist. I may be in the minority but I do believe we all are somewhat racist, not that it excuses it but it's something we should be conscious of. Narcissist? Yep, I believe that too, and I would say all presidents for at least the last fifty years have been. It kind of comes before and with the position of POTUS. Sociopath? Hardly, unless you hold him personally responsible for the deaths caused by our war machine. I do not.
Trinnity
05-19-2012, 12:55 PM
I don't want to recreate DCJ. But those are my firm opinions of Obama.
I've truly sorry if it offends you, but it is my opinion based on what I know about his upbringing and his path in life. I'm not trying to flame here. Sorry if it seemed that way.
BlackAsCoal
05-19-2012, 12:56 PM
BAC, c'mon - you think Obama is an American? What?
To my knowledge, no President has released their academic records. So my research on Obama is as sketchy as my research on Reagan, Eisenhower and Ford, Kennedy, Carter, G. H. W. Bush, Nixon and George Bush. No more full, and no less either.
:0)
The New Yorker magazine published the grades of George Bush in 1999 .. that's how everyone knew that he was a "C" student at Yale?
In fact, we also know that John Kerry was a "C" student at Yale. Bush had slightly better grades than Kerry.
In fact, we also know the grades of Al Gore when he was at Harvard .. published by the Washington Post.
I have no dog in this hunt .. but Barack Obama has spent a lot of money and gone to extrodinary efforts to keep what should be an asset, a secret. If he's such an academic genius, why wouldn't he RUSH to release his grades and his entire transcripts?
I only question because I see no evidence of genius.
Yes, he's an American .. No, he's not a muslim .. Hell NO, he's not a socialist.
But his past still remains cloudy and purposefully confusing .. and I see nothing wrong with questioning the past of a president .. no matter who questions.
Trinnity
05-19-2012, 12:59 PM
Sociopath? Hardly, unless you hold him personally responsible for the deaths caused by our war machine. I do not.He has not given the impression he truly cares about people - more so himself. My opinion.
I look for signs in people and events. This doctor of his noted some qualities in him that I've noticed too.
Even President Obama‘s Former Doctor Thinks He Lacks ’Humanity’ (http://www.theblaze.com/stories/even-president-obamas-doctor-thinks-he-lacks-humanity/)
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 01:03 PM
I don't want to recreate DCJ. But those are my firm opinions of Obama.
I've truly sorry if it offends you, but it is my opinion based on what I know about his upbringing and his path in life. I'm not trying to flame here. Sorry if it seemed that way.At this point you actually do have a lot of public record to consult.
Be clear: Opinions and facts are not the same. Opinions that don't yield to facts? That would be a person wanting to believe the worst about another. I have no clue why, but there it is.
Opinions based on conjecture and speculation that can't be debated and discussed. Great for an episode of Gossip Girl. Not so much for Board that wants to get to world-class discussion of the issues of the day with people across the political spectrum.
spunkloaf
05-19-2012, 01:03 PM
I don't want to recreate DCJ. But those are my firm opinions of Obama.
I've truly sorry if it offends you, but it is my opinion based on what I know about his upbringing and his path in life. I'm not trying to flame here. Sorry if it seemed that way.
Ok at least you can be reasonable. You have my permission to disagree. :laugh: j/k
BlackAsCoal
05-19-2012, 01:04 PM
And the answer is, actually he did write an article for the law review:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12705.html
For an interesting review of Obama's tenure as editor and insight into his legal and political philosophy - some of which will surely surprise the people here - check this out:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11257.html
Exclusive: Obama's lost law review article
As president of the Harvard Law Review and a law professor in Chicago, Senator Barack Obama refined his legal thinking, but left a scant paper trail. His name doesn't appear on any legal scholarship.
But an unsigned — and previously unattributed — 1990 article unearthed by Politico offers a glimpse at Obama's views on abortion policy and the law during his student days, and provides a rare addition to his body of work.
Even you must admit there was and still is room for reasonable doubt.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 01:09 PM
He has not given the impression he truly cares about people - more so himself. My opinion.
I look for signs in people and events. This doctor of his noted some qualities in him that I've noticed too.
Even President Obama‘s Former Doctor Thinks He Lacks ’Humanity’
(http://www.theblaze.com/stories/even-president-obamas-doctor-thinks-he-lacks-humanity/)You cannot fairly get from that excerpt of an interview that Obama is a sociopath. That is a whopper.
Trinnity
05-19-2012, 01:10 PM
At this point you actually do have a lot of public record to consult.
Be clear: Opinions and facts are not the same. Opinions that don't yield to facts? That would be a person wanting to believe the worst about another. I have no clue why, but there it is.
Opinions based on conjecture and speculation that can't be debated and discussed. Great for an episode of Gossip Girl. Not so much for Board that wants to get to world-class discussion of the issues of the day with people across the political spectrum.His mentor was that Frank Davis, his parents were Marxists, and by his own words he sought them out in college. Some of his policies like Obamacare and his expansion of bureaucrisy and regs....yep, I'll stand by my view that he's a Marxist "under the radar". (http://hotair.com/archives/2011/05/25/obama-were-working-on-gun-control-under-the-radar/)
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 01:11 PM
Exclusive: Obama's lost law review article
As president of the Harvard Law Review and a law professor in Chicago, Senator Barack Obama refined his legal thinking, but left a scant paper trail. His name doesn't appear on any legal scholarship.
But an unsigned — and previously unattributed — 1990 article unearthed by Politico offers a glimpse at Obama's views on abortion policy and the law during his student days, and provides a rare addition to his body of work.
Even you must admit there was and still is room for reasonable doubt.Even me?
It was a published law review article, unsigned as many are. This is not argument, BAC.
Trinnity
05-19-2012, 01:13 PM
You cannot fairly get from that excerpt of an interview that Obama is a sociopath. That is a whopper.It's not just that. I've been watching him closely for three and a half years, and I've noticed his lack of empathy. That observation by his doctor merely added to what I have observed. It's my opinion. We'll just have to disagree.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 01:14 PM
His mentor was that Frank Davis, his parents were Marxists, and by his own words he sought them out in college. Some of his policies like Obamacare and his expansion of bureaucrisy and regs....yep, I'll stand by my view that he's a Marxist "under the radar". (http://hotair.com/archives/2011/05/25/obama-were-working-on-gun-control-under-the-radar/) A Marxist who supports free enterprise, does not nationalize industries and does not in any shape or form promote Marxist policy when he has a chance to that is not a Marxist under the radar - he is not a Marxist.
Ask BAC who is a socialist if he thinks Obama is a socialist. It is a ridiculous claim.
Argument by innuendo and association is the stuff of McCarthyism.
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 01:19 PM
And the answer is, actually he did write an article for the law review:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0808/12705.html
For an interesting review of Obama's tenure as editor and insight into his legal and political philosophy - some of which will surely surprise the people here - check this out:
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/11257.html
Were is the Harvard Law review link to Obama's article?
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 01:22 PM
No doubt? Where do you even have a hint of evidence he is a racist?
Marxist? Against his own party's urging, he proposed the purely private sector solution once urged by Heritage Foundation and implemented by Governor Romney in Massachusetts. His tax policies compare with Reagan's and Eisenhowers tax politices. Marxist? Ridiculous hyper-partisan tripe.
Narcissist ?
Sociopath? Really????
Obama as Hitler is beneath the intelligence of the people on this Board.
Folks, honesty is a virtue we can all agree upon. Let's use that. I will go wherever the facts and truth take me. Who else will also take that pledge?
Can we all step away from the partisan rhetoric and cheap innuendo and stay focused on the facts?
Trinnity, I thought you didn't want to recreate the "DCJ experience"?
Obamacare is designed to kill the health insurance industry. He admitted that was his goal during his nation-wide tour to sell the program when a far-lefty told him he should be focusing on universal health care. Obama responded that is what he wanted but it would not pass in America today, but that is the goal.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 01:24 PM
Obamacare is designed to kill the health insurance industry. He admitted that was his goal during his nation-wide tour to sell the program when a far-lefty told him he should be focusing on universal health care. Obama responded that is what he wanted but it would not pass in America today, but that is the goal.Do you typically focus on what a politician says or does?
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 01:24 PM
Even me?
It was a published law review article, unsigned as many are. This is not argument, BAC.
Law review articles are not unsigned. Law review notes may be, but not articles.
BlackAsCoal
05-19-2012, 01:25 PM
A Marxist who supports free enterprise, does not nationalize industries and does not in any shape or form promote Marxist policy when he has a chance to that is not a Marxist under the radar - he is not a Marxist.
Ask BAC who is a socialist if he thinks Obama is a socialist. It is a ridiculous claim.
Argument by innuendo and association is the stuff of McCarthyism.
"Obama is a socialist" is an absolutely ridiculous claim. It's meme that they can't let go of no matter how ridiculous it's proven.
Same question that I ask of any and everyone who makes that claim .. including our friend Trinnity ..
Are you of the opinion that Wall Street pours money on a socialist?
Wall Street gave more money to Obama than any politician in history.
Trinn's answer was that she believes that Wall Street pours money on evverybody .. which of course it does not.
Using Obamacare as an argument has even less logic .. especially given that it was patterened after Romneycare .. the guy they think is better and who represents business.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 01:25 PM
Were is the Harvard Law review link to Obama's article?
Now that we know the title, we can look it up.
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 01:26 PM
Do you typically focus on what a politician says or does?
Both. Obamacare is designed to price health insurance out of existence. Health insurance will cost so much that people will plead for universal care. That is the plan.
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 01:27 PM
Now that we know the title, we can look it up.
Right. I posted a link to my law review article. Lets see Obama's law review article.
BlackAsCoal
05-19-2012, 01:28 PM
Obamacare is designed to kill the health insurance industry. He admitted that was his goal during his nation-wide tour to sell the program when a far-lefty told him he should be focusing on universal health care. Obama responded that is what he wanted but it would not pass in America today, but that is the goal.
Who do you think wrote Obamacare?
Answer: the health insurance industry
Who do you think are its biggest beneficiaries?
Answer: the health insurance industry
BlackAsCoal
05-19-2012, 01:31 PM
His mentor was that Frank Davis, his parents were Marxists, and by his own words he sought them out in college. Some of his policies like Obamacare and his expansion of bureaucrisy and regs....yep, I'll stand by my view that he's a Marxist "under the radar". (http://hotair.com/archives/2011/05/25/obama-were-working-on-gun-control-under-the-radar/)
The health insurance industry wrote Obamacare .. AND, a blue-dog conservative democrat oversaw it .. AND, a former health insurance executive has her name on the bill as its author.
Two words .. Wall Street :0)
Deadwood
05-19-2012, 01:32 PM
It is true that Obama has not released his college transcripts - but the same is true for Eisenhower, Reagan and George W. Bush - in fact for all Presidents as far as I could tell. President Bush in fact did not release his grades, some reporter dug them up.
Thank you for proving my point.
Eisenhower, I am certain, never promised to be the most "open and transparent" president in history either.
So, what you are saying is that Obama broke a few hundred years of tradition when he folded on the issue of the birth certificate simply because a boardroom thug and media whore like Donald Trump was nagging him?
Come on, you can't have it both ways. He's either "open and transparent" or he's following tradition.
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 01:34 PM
Who do you think wrote Obamacare?
Answer: the health insurance industry
Who do you think are its biggest beneficiaries?
Answer: the health insurance industry
I think that you are incorrect. I am sure that the health insurance industry had a lot of say; but the final product will kill the industry. But we will likely never know because SCOTUS will invalidate the mandate.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 01:39 PM
"Obama is a socialist" is an absolutely ridiculous claim. It's meme that they can't let go of no matter how ridiculous it's proven.
Same question that I ask of any and everyone who makes that claim .. including our friend Trinnity ..
Are you of the opinion that Wall Street pours money on a socialist?
Wall Street gave more money to Obama than any politician in history.
Trinn's answer was that she believes that Wall Street pours money on evverybody .. which of course it does not.
Using Obamacare as an argument has even less logic .. especially given that it was patterened after Romneycare .. the guy they think is better and who represents business.Thank you, my friend. I'm actually shocked this is not obvious to people. It shows the power of propaganda over otherwise very intelligent people. It does scare the hell out of me.
Most people in America today do not know what actual socialism is. BAC, I will never be upset with you for rejecting Obama because he falls far, far, far short of what you'd expect from a socialist. I too have my own list of criticisms of the President.
Socialism is literally a red flag and a red herring used to create enmity against the President not on the basis of what he thinks and does, or any kind of reasoned opinions based upon facts, but based simply and wholly upon inflamed emotion generated by cheap word associations with Stalin and, even less logically, Hitler.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 01:41 PM
I think that you are incorrect. I am sure that the health insurance industry had a lot of say; but the final product will kill the industry. But we will likely never know because SCOTUS will invalidate the mandate.BAC is correct: the Health Insurance Industry through a lobbyist that came to work with Baucus literally presided over the writing of the thing.
Mainecoons
05-19-2012, 01:42 PM
That's a great reason for tossing it right there.
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 01:46 PM
BAC is correct: the Health Insurance Industry through a lobbyist that came to work with Baucus literally presided over the writing of the thing.
Well if SCOTUS doesn't toss the mandate we will know how is correct in 5-10 years.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 01:46 PM
Thank you for proving my point.
Eisenhower, I am certain, never promised to be the most "open and transparent" president in history either.
So, what you are saying is that Obama broke a few hundred years of tradition when he folded on the issue of the birth certificate simply because a boardroom thug and media whore like Donald Trump was nagging him?
Come on, you can't have it both ways. He's either "open and transparent" or he's following tradition.God i love that Avatar. Wish the son of a bitch was still alive.
I haven't made your point: Logically, Obama can still be the most open and transparent president in history, without breaking with all tradition.
He can make a very good case for it. If you want to argue he broke that campaign pledge, I would disagree but certainly would not think the less of you.
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 01:47 PM
Thank you, my friend. I'm actually shocked this is not obvious to people. It shows the power of propaganda over otherwise very intelligent people. It does scare the hell out of me.
Most people in America today do not know what actual socialism is. BAC, I will never be upset with you for rejecting Obama because he falls far, far, far short of what you'd expect from a socialist. I too have my own list of criticisms of the President.
Socialism is literally a red flag and a red herring used to create enmity against the President not on the basis of what he thinks and does, or any kind of reasoned opinions based upon facts, but based simply and wholly upon inflamed emotion generated by cheap word associations with Stalin and, even less logically, Hitler.
As I said in other posts, Americans do things differently from the old country.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oieJ8zj8TBw
BlackAsCoal
05-19-2012, 01:52 PM
I think that you are incorrect. I am sure that the health insurance industry had a lot of say; but the final product will kill the industry. But we will likely never know because SCOTUS will invalidate the mandate.
I disagree with you brother .. and I can prove why.
Liz Fowler, former WellPoint executive, wrote the bill. Just ask Max Baccus
Baucus Thanks Wellpoint VP Liz Fowler for Writing Health Care Bill (http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/03/29/baucus-thanks-wellpoint-vp-liz-fowler-for-writing-health-care-bill/)
Not only that .. guess who Obama picked to administer the program?
"His most recent appointment is a corporate hack from the health insurance industry, Liz Fowler. President Obama has tapped her to be the deputy director of the Office of Consumer Information and Oversight at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. She was an appalling choice."
http://www.pdaillinois.org/site/content/obama%E2%80%99s-appointments-leave-progressives-hard-job-november
Guess what else?
Health CEO Who Bilked Govt. In Charge Of Obamacare Oversight
The director of the new agency created to oversee the government takeover of the nation’s healthcare system was the Chairman and Executive Officer of a Maryland company that cheated taxpayers out of more than $74 million in Medicaid overpayments.
One can only imagine what he will do in his new role as Obamacare’s top dog in charge of regulating and controlling the lucrative, private insurance market. At the president’s new Center for Consumer Information and Insurance Oversight (http://cciio.cms.gov/)(CCIIO), Steve Larsen will have an incredible amount of power and influence in a number of areas with no oversight.As head of the agency, Larsen, the one-time CEO of Amerigroup Maryland and the state’s former insurance commissioner, will oversee four divisions with widespread power; the Office of Oversight, the Office of Insurance Programs, the Office of Consumer Support, and the Office of Health Insurance Exchanges.
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2011/09/health-ceo-who-bilked-govt-in-charge-of-obamacare-oversight/
There is no question that the health insurance industry would be the biggest beneficiary of Obamacare BY FAR .. with millions of new clients forced to buy their over-priced products.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 01:55 PM
That's a great reason for tossing it right there.BAC agrees with you about that.
BlackAsCoal
05-19-2012, 01:56 PM
Thank you, my friend. I'm actually shocked this is not obvious to people. It shows the power of propaganda over otherwise very intelligent people. It does scare the hell out of me.
Most people in America today do not know what actual socialism is. BAC, I will never be upset with you for rejecting Obama because he falls far, far, far short of what you'd expect from a socialist. I too have my own list of criticisms of the President.
Socialism is literally a red flag and a red herring used to create enmity against the President not on the basis of what he thinks and does, or any kind of reasoned opinions based upon facts, but based simply and wholly upon inflamed emotion generated by cheap word associations with Stalin and, even less logically, Hitler.
I agree with every single word of that good brother .. yes I do. :0)
ramone
05-19-2012, 02:15 PM
That's a great reason for tossing it right there.
It's BS Main, there is no one person who could write something almost two feet tall in that time frame. Much less read it all, there isn't anybody who to this day knows exactly what kind of mumbojumbo legal crap is in that thing.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 02:17 PM
As I said in other posts, Americans do things differently from the old country.
That is a good video. It helps to understand a number of important things about the left and the different sources the left draws upon.
First let us all be clear, Howard Dean does not speak for all of the Left. The Left again is anything but monolithic as you have seen played out here on this board.
Second, here in this video he was offering his personal opinion about what the better debate would be.
Third, he was not offering to redefine the word socialism. Unlike what you have said, there is no such a thing as a European socialism versus an American Socialism. There is socialism, and a slew of very negative associations connected with it.
Finally and most importantly, to my way of looking at things - speaking for myself - what Dean was pointing us back to is something grounded in Adam Smith not Karl Marx. The free market even as Smith envisioned it left room for government to express what Dean dubbed the communitarian impulse - actions needed to support the common good. Adam Smith mentioned three:
According to the system of natural liberty, the sovereign has only three duties to attend to; three duties of great importance, indeed, but plain and intelligible to common understanding: first the duty of protecting the society from the violence and invasion of other independent societies; secondly, the duty of protecting, as far as possible, every member of society from the injustice or oppression of every other member of it, or the duty of establishing an exact administration of justice; and, thirdly, the duty of erecting and maintaining certain publick works and certain publick institutions, which it can never be for the interest of any individual, or small number of individuals, to erect and maintain; because the profit could never repay the expense to any individual or small number of individuals, though it may frequently do much more than repay it to a great society.
The general welfare of the People is not something that Karl Marx has any monopoly over, appearing as it does in the New Testament, in Adam Smith and in our Constitution .
Deadwood
05-19-2012, 02:34 PM
Nice diversion.
He can still be? What kind of argument is that? It denies the fact he is a slithering, secretive, deceitful liar...which is kind of counter indicated from "open and transparent". This guy even keeps secret the visitor logs to the Oval Office, something no other president has even done.
The post is a laugh riot on a thread dealing with the secret authors of Obamacare.....................and you have to know someone's coffers were lined pretty good for being granted the privilege of writing a law that allows them to create their own cash cow. That $ billion on which Obama is waging his campaign came from somewhere.....
Any guess how much came directly or indirectly from the health insurance industry?
Open and transparent.....ROFLMAO
Trinnity
05-19-2012, 02:37 PM
Obamacare is designed to kill the health insurance industry. He admitted that was his goal during his nation-wide tour to sell the program when a far-lefty told him he should be focusing on universal health care. Obama responded that is what he wanted but it would not pass in America today, but that is the goal.This ^.
Marxism, collectivism.....call it what you will, it's all the same thing, just shades of gray.
Trinnity
05-19-2012, 02:39 PM
Are you of the opinion that Wall Street pours money on a socialist?
Wall street is pouring money on both parties. It's to buy favor. It's a matter of being pragmatic.
Trinnity
05-19-2012, 02:42 PM
Who do you think wrote Obamacare?
Answer: the health insurance industry
Who do you think are its biggest beneficiaries?
Answer: the health insurance industryYou know it's not that simple. IMO, he "let them" have a hand in it to buy their cooperation. But NO ONE really knew what was in the 2000+ page monster, and there lies the betrayal.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 02:56 PM
Nice diversion.Los Cabos is a nice diversion. I -- if you are to believe my wife, my new friends here and my old Marxist communist buddies -- am someone who can be quite difficult.
He can still be?Exactly! In the spirit of congeniality which animates nearly all of my posts, I am conceding that some might dispute his claim to be the most open and transparent President ever. In point of fact, Obama himself has admitted that he has fallen short in a few areas.
What kind of argument is that?The very best kind!
It denies the fact he is a slithering, secretive, deceitful liarAll right, now you've done it. You have boldly expressed three naked opinions about the President. Point of correction though, "deceitful liar" seems redundant. After all, how much sense would "honest liar" be?
...which is kind of counter indicated from "open and transparent". This guy even keeps secret the visitor logs to the Oval Office, something no other president has even done.If you are interested in his record on actual, trackable promises made on transparency, you can find them collected here:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/subjects/transparency/
I would argue based on what you find there he can say overall he has largely kept his word. I am conceding to you that reasonable people may disagree.
The post is a laugh riot on a thread dealing with the secret authors of ObamacareIt was not a secret, which is why anybody who cares to look up that info has always been able to validate it. It is not a secret at all.
That Obama plays the politics game as it exists today confirms he understands and understands quite well, what losing politicians like John Kerry don't: People who live in ivory towers do not become President of the United States.
BlackAsCoal
05-19-2012, 03:11 PM
Wall street is pouring money on both parties. It's to buy favor. It's a matter of being pragmatic.
Wall Street would never support a socialist no matter what party they belong to. There is absolutely no sane argument that could refute that.
The problem comes with the meme that does not have a clue about what socialism is. The fact that he's attacking planet earth is yet another demonstration that he's not a socialist. It demonstrates that he's a capitalist.
Obama is a corporatist .. and corporations have been the biggest beneficiaries of his administration.
The fact that his opponents can't challenge him on the truth of what he is demonstrates how close they actually are in ideology.
Obama is a warmonger .. so are republicans.
Obama is a corporatist .. so are republicans.
Obama supports the Patriot Act and NDAA .. so do republicans.
Republicans don't attack him on any of those issues.
So now they're re-hashing mindless unfounded garbage that has already been rejected by the Amnerican people.
I'm against him for what he is .. not for what he isn't.
Trinnity
05-19-2012, 03:17 PM
I wanted to know exactly how many pages ObamaCare is....
1,147,271 Words of Obamacare Regulations Published So Far—270% as Long as the Text of the Statute. (http://obamacarewatcher.org/articles/172)
04/20/2011
Last year Congress passed the 906-page “Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act” followed by the 55-page “Health Care and Education Reconciliation Act of 2010.”[1] Together, they form what is better known as Obamacare.
If you thought that Obamacare was long, it is only a fraction of the length of the regulations.
Obamacare contains over 700 directives for HHS and other agencies to implement Obamacare.[2]
We went through and counted all of the Obamacare regulation documents published so far.[3] We found that the number of pages in regulations are already 114% as long as the number of pages in the Obamacare statutes! The statutes contain 961 pages compared to 1,093 pages of regulations.
But regulations published in the Federal Register are published in small font, three columns wide.
What is more telling is the word count comparison. The Obamacare statutes together contain 425,116 words. Compare that to 1,147,271 words published so far in Obamacare regulation documents. The regulations are 270% as long as the statute itself.
The 1.1 million words in Obamacare regulations published so far are only a fraction of the regulations yet to come.
(footnotes)
[1] You may have heard that Obamacare is 2,000+ pages in length. Technically it is, or better, it was. While in bill form, the Obamacare statutes were a total of 2,471 pages long. Congressional bills have wide margins and are double spaced. The page counts in our first paragraph are more conservative as they are based on the number of pages in the Government Printing Office’s version of the Obamacare Statutes available at http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ148/pdf/PLAW-111publ148.pdf and http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/PLAW-111publ152/pdf/PLAW-111publ152.pdf.
[2] http://spectator.org/archives/2010/06/04/the-empress-of-obamacare.
[3] This includes 49 documents such as requests for information, advance notices of proposed rulemakings, proposed rules, interim final rules and final rules, and some notices. We excluded, however, many regulation documents which were only in part affected by the Obamacare statues.
I'm sorry I couldn't shorten this much (I won't make a habit of that), but the facts have to be laid out.
One person didn't write all that. NO way.
BlackAsCoal
05-19-2012, 03:24 PM
You know it's not that simple. IMO, he "let them" have a hand in it to buy their cooperation. But NO ONE really knew what was in the 2000+ page monster, and there lies the betrayal.
It is that simple. He let them write it because Obama is a corporatist, not a socialist.
Are you of the opinion that this is what would have come from Bernie Sanders, a REAL socialist?
Do you think a socialist would have required a mandate? That makes no sense whatsoever.
What a real socialist .. and anyone who cared about the American people more than campaign donors .. would have produced was Medicare-for-All. Infrastructure already in place, one of the most popular programs in American history.
You really should think about revamping your approach to this.
Trinnity
05-19-2012, 03:28 PM
No it's not. And Sanders is just one member of Congress. There's nothing simple about any of it.
oh yeah, she wrote the whole thing...really <snort>
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 03:33 PM
I disagree with you brother .. and I can prove why.
Liz Fowler, former WellPoint executive, wrote the bill. Just ask Max Baccus
Baucus Thanks Wellpoint VP Liz Fowler for Writing Health Care Bill (http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/03/29/baucus-thanks-wellpoint-vp-liz-fowler-for-writing-health-care-bill/)
Not only that .. guess who Obama picked to administer the program?
"His most recent appointment is a corporate hack from the health insurance industry, Liz Fowler. President Obama has tapped her to be the deputy director of the Office of Consumer Information and Oversight at the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. She was an appalling choice."
http://www.pdaillinois.org/site/content/obama’s-appointments-leave-progressives-hard-job-november
Guess what else?
Health CEO Who Bilked Govt. In Charge Of Obamacare Oversight
The director of the new agency created to oversee the government takeover of the nation’s healthcare system was the Chairman and Executive Officer of a Maryland company that cheated taxpayers out of more than $74 million in Medicaid overpayments.
One can only imagine what he will do in his new role as Obamacare’s top dog in charge of regulating and controlling the lucrative, private insurance market. At the president’s new Center for Consumer Information and Insurance Oversight (http://cciio.cms.gov/)(CCIIO), Steve Larsen will have an incredible amount of power and influence in a number of areas with no oversight.As head of the agency, Larsen, the one-time CEO of Amerigroup Maryland and the state’s former insurance commissioner, will oversee four divisions with widespread power; the Office of Oversight, the Office of Insurance Programs, the Office of Consumer Support, and the Office of Health Insurance Exchanges.
http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2011/09/health-ceo-who-bilked-govt-in-charge-of-obamacare-oversight/
There is no question that the health insurance industry would be the biggest beneficiary of Obamacare BY FAR .. with millions of new clients forced to buy their over-priced products.
Right. And once health insurance becomes too expensive people will demand universal care. Obamacare will do that in short order regardless of who wrote it. Perhaps the health insurance industry was aware of this and decided to milk the system for as much money as possible before they are forced to close up shop.
BlackAsCoal
05-19-2012, 03:40 PM
I wanted to know exactly how many pages ObamaCare is....
I'm sorry I couldn't shorten this much (I won't make a habit of that), but the facts have to be laid out.
One person didn't write all that. NO way.
The Writer of the Health Care Bill is Confirmed
And you'll never believe who it was...
Was it a communist socialist? Marxist maybe? I know...it just HAD to be Chairman Mao's ghost...
NOPE..
NONE OF THOSE.
It was Liz Fowler.
Who is that you say????
She's the former VP of Wellpoint and was hired under Baucus to write the basis of the bill
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread556782/pg1
Former Health Ins. VP Wrote Max Baucus Health Plan
http://chattahbox.com/us/2009/09/10/former-health-ins-vp-wrote-max-baucus-health-plan/
If you still don't want to believe the facts right in front of your face .. whatever you do don't pull up the bill in pdf form, go to properties and find out who is listed as "Author."
No, she didn't write every line of the bill, but as the Blue-dog conservative Senator who oversaw the creation of the bill has already told you, it's Liz Fowler's bill. She directed it's creation from start to finish.
Which one of these people is a socialist?
Max Baucus or Liz Fowler?
.. or none of the above?
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 03:42 PM
Third, he was not offering to redefine the word socialism. Unlike what you have said, there is no such a thing as a European socialism versus an American Socialism. There is socialism, and a slew of very negative associations connected with it.
Perhaps I was not clear: Americans have never taken the ideas from Europe and applied them identically here in America. They change them to suit their nature. The progressives of the left and right did it with fascism in the in the 20s and 30s and effectively ended the era of the constitution in America. They fundamentally transformed society and pulled off a massive power shift to the federal government. Current liberal leaders don't practice pure socialism. But they take democracy and so heavily regulate society and push for government oversight that many apply the term socialism to it. It is a careless use of the term. A better term would be statism.
Finally and most importantly, to my way of looking at things - speaking for myself - what Dean was pointing us back to is something grounded in Adam Smith not Karl Marx.
Howard Dean's policies are nowhere near those of Adam Smith's.
Deadwood
05-19-2012, 03:42 PM
Los Cabos is a nice diversion. I -- if you are to believe my wife, my new friends here and my old Marxist communist buddies -- am someone who can be quite difficult.
Exactly! In the spirit of congeniality which animates nearly all of my posts, I am conceding that some might dispute his claim to be the most open and transparent President ever. In point of fact, Obama himself has admitted that he has fallen short in a few areas.
The very best kind!
All right, now you've done it. You have boldly expressed three naked opinions about the President. Point of correction though, "deceitful liar" seems redundant. After all, how much sense would "honest liar" be?
If you are interested in his record on actual, trackable promises made on transparency, you can find them collected here:
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/subjects/transparency/
I would argue based on what you find there he can say overall he has largely kept his word. I am conceding to you that reasonable people may disagree.
It was not a secret, which is why anybody who cares to look up that info has always been able to validate it. It is not a secret at all.
That Obama plays the politics game as it exists today confirms he understands and understands quite well, what losing politicians like John Kerry don't: People who live in ivory towers do not become President of the United States.
No, just pedantic and nit picking.
Obama's is not by ANY standard an open and transparent administration. The rest is mental masturbation.
Enjoy it.
BlackAsCoal
05-19-2012, 03:45 PM
Right. And once health insurance becomes too expensive people will demand universal care. Obamacare will do that in short order regardless of who wrote it. Perhaps the health insurance industry was aware of this and decided to milk the system for as much money as possible before they are forced to close up shop.
The path to universal care was the easiest .. and it was the path that Obama avoided from day one .. while he was on his way to backroom deals with Big Pharma.
Medicare-for-All was always the easiest path.
Politicians pay a political cost for even attacking it.
One of the most popular programs in American history.
Requires no mandate.
That's the path a socialist would have taken. Obama took the path of a true capitalist .. as he always does.
Mainecoons
05-19-2012, 03:51 PM
Umm, Medicare is broke and loses 4 times as much to fraud as private insurers. Yep, another really great liberal success.
:grin:
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 04:00 PM
The path to universal care was the easiest .. and it was the path that Obama avoided from day one .. while he was on his way to backroom deals with Big Pharma.
Medicare-for-All was always the easiest path.
Politicians pay a political cost for even attacking it.
One of the most popular programs in American history.
Requires no mandate.
That's the path a socialist would have taken. Obama took the path of a true capitalist .. as he always does.
Obama took the path of a politician who wanted his bill to be passed into law. A universal health care bill would have likely never even made it to the floor for a vote.
Obama wouldn't know capitalism if it ran over him.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 04:03 PM
No, just pedantic and nit picking.Nah - Pedantic is when someone condescending presumes some kind of moral high ground against all evidence to the contrary - kind of like you are doing right now.
Rather than look at what he actually promised and how well he performed against those promises you just cling to what you want to believe. To quote Dan Quayle: "Oh what a waste it is to lose one's mind."
I always enjoy.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 04:06 PM
A better term would be statism. Statism is better than socialism, only because it disrupts clear thinking less. Even that is not an accurate description of "the Left" today.
Howard Dean's policies are nowhere near those of Adam Smith's.Forget Howard Dean. We'd get a lot more mileage out of talking about Adam Smith. I'm with Adam.
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 04:09 PM
Statism is better than socialism, only because it disrupts clear thinking less. Even that is not an accurate description of "the Left" today.
Forget Howard Dean. We'd get a lot more mileage out of talking about Adam Smith. I'm with Adam.
I would think that Adam Smith would have the US treat small businesses very different from large corporations. His invisible hand theory has no effect on large corporation, so they must be regulated by the government.
Statism is an accurate description of the left's power base.
BlackAsCoal
05-19-2012, 04:11 PM
Obama took the path of a politician who wanted his bill to be passed into law. A universal health care bill would have likely never even made it to the floor for a vote.
Obama wouldn't know capitalism if it ran over him.
Obama is a far more capitalist than you are good brother .. and he has the dollars to prove it. Do you think after he leaves office that he'll go out and build houses for poor people, ala Jimmy Carter?
Or do you think he'll follow the path of Bill Clinton to riches?
He's at war with planet earth and droning the planet. The drones cost about 20 million a piece and he's selling them everywhere.
He could have passed Medicare-for-All easier than passing what he did.
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 04:15 PM
Obama is a far more capitalist than you are good brother .. and he has the dollars to prove it. Do you think after he leaves office that he'll go out and build houses for poor people, ala Jimmy Carter?
Or do you think he'll follow the path of Bill Clinton to riches?
He's at war with planet earth and droning the planet. The drones cost about 20 million a piece and he's selling them everywhere.
He could have passed Medicare-for-All easier than passing what he did.
I disagree. Universal health care never would have made it to the floor for a vote.
dsolo802
05-19-2012, 05:01 PM
I would think that Adam Smith would have the US treat small businesses very different from large corporations. His invisible hand theory has no effect on large corporation, so they must be regulated by the government. Pete, I'd like to hear your thinking why you think Smith would have treated the little fish different from the big ones?
Statism is an accurate description of the left's power base.I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree. What is your definition of Statism??
Peter1469
05-19-2012, 05:21 PM
Pete, I'd like to hear your thinking why you think Smith would have treated the little fish different from the big ones?
I'm not sure whether I agree or disagree. What is your definition of Statism??
Adam Smith's Invisible Hand Theory basically said that the free market would regulate business- he was referring to what we call today Mom and Pop stores. They have to predict the market wants and provide it or they will go out of business. If they have poor quality, high costs, or poor customer service their customers will go somewhere else. They will fail.
Adam Smith hated corporations- of course corporations were different in his time (much more controlled), but they only have more reach and power today than they had then. So he probably would hate the current bunch all the more. One of the big points that make the Invisible Hand Theory work was that the business owner is 100% invested in his business (not true with corporations). He either succeeds or he fails. That creates self-regulation.
Corporations on the other hand limit the liability of both shareholders and managers. In our age where CEOs have massive golden parachutes to sweeten any failure, no person can tell me with a straight face that the Invisible Hand Theory has much of an affect if any at all. Government must regulate these beasts to protect society.
_____
I use Statism as a catch all to capture the far left- totalitarianism, communism, socialism, fascism, and many social democracies that are more social than democratic. After all as you move left on the political scale, there isn't much difference from the PoV of the average citizen.
Trinnity
05-19-2012, 05:54 PM
It was Liz Fowler. Poor thing - I'll bet her hand is tired from all that work.
I DON'T BELIEVE YOU. got it?
Trinnity
05-19-2012, 05:56 PM
The progressives of the left and right did it with fascism in the in the 20s and 30s and effectively ended the era of the constitution in America. They fundamentally transformed society and pulled off a massive power shift to the federal government. All true.
Current liberal leaders don't practice pure socialism. But they take democracy and so heavily regulate society and push for government oversight that many apply the term socialism to it. It is a careless use of the term. A better term would be statism. I agree with that and have often called Obama a statist.
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