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Cigar
10-16-2014, 02:38 PM
If you don't Vote, you have no right to complain about the direction of the country ...

Because no one's Vote is more important than "yours"

Unless you don't Vote, then "everyone" Vote is more important that "yours"

:thumbsup20: That's a Truth Statement

Cigar
10-16-2014, 03:03 PM
I agree ... there is no argument :grin:

Chris
10-16-2014, 03:28 PM
Your vote doesn't count. Want to discuss?

Mister D
10-16-2014, 03:30 PM
Disillusionment with the political process is widespread throughoutt he western world.

Cigar
10-16-2014, 03:54 PM
Your vote doesn't count. Want to discuss?

Are you Fucking Kidding ... I've had 6 years of Entertainment and I'm getting 2 more :laugh: priceless

Chris
10-16-2014, 04:03 PM
Are you Fucking Kidding ... I've had 6 years of Entertainment and I'm getting 2 more :laugh: priceless

Which has what to do with the value of your vote?

Cigar
10-16-2014, 04:10 PM
Which has what to do with the value of your vote?

The Value of MY VOTE does not have to equal the Value of YOUR VOTE :laugh:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/march_april_2012/features/obamas_top_50_accomplishments035755.php?page=all

Chris
10-16-2014, 04:16 PM
The Value of MY VOTE does not have to equal the Value of YOUR VOTE :laugh:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/march_april_2012/features/obamas_top_50_accomplishments035755.php?page=all

The value of your vote has little to do with the value of Obama's accomplishments, if any.

How much do you think you vote contributed to his or any presidential election? Last election you were one of 240,926,957 eligible voters, and if you want to count only voters, one of 130,292,355.* How much did your vote count?


* http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2012G.html

Cigar
10-16-2014, 04:47 PM
The value of your vote has little to do with the value of Obama's accomplishments, if any.

How much do you think you vote contributed to his or any presidential election? Last election you were one of 240,926,957 eligible voters, and if you want to count only voters, one of 130,292,355.* How much did your vote count?


* http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2012G.html

I Approved of and Voted for Change and I got it despite the Right effort to change nothing.

Therefore I win ...

Chris
10-16-2014, 04:57 PM
I Approved of and Voted for Change and I got it despite the Right effort to change nothing.

Therefore I win ...

A: "I Approved of and Voted for Change"
B: "I got it"
C: "I win"

A is true and B is, well, for the sake of argument on topic, let's say true, in the sense what you wanted to happen happened.

That still does not demonstrate any causal relationship between A and B, iow, still does not show that your or anyone's vote was of value.

C is irrelevant to the topic that your vote is valuable.

Cigar
10-16-2014, 05:11 PM
I wanted Obamacare
I wanted Equal treatment under the Law for The LGBT Community
I wanted GM Bailed Out
I wanted Torture Policies Reversed

... too many to list and more to come ... like
Immigration Reform

Chris
10-16-2014, 05:17 PM
Irrelevant to your contention your vote is valuable.

I've already showed numbers to show that contention mathematically absurd.

But it's also politically absurd because of the nature of the electoral college. You vote in Illinois which is by and large Democrat. It didn't matter how you individually voted, Illinois was going to vote Democrat and for Obama. If you voted in Texas which is by and large Republican, it would not have mattered one bit how you voted, the state voted Republican.

Cigar
10-16-2014, 05:27 PM
Irrelevant to your contention your vote is valuable.

I've already showed numbers to show that contention mathematically absurd.

But it's also politically absurd because of the nature of the electoral college. You vote in Illinois which is by and large Democrat. It didn't matter how you individually voted, Illinois was going to vote Democrat and for Obama. If you voted in Texas which is by and large Republican, it would not have mattered one bit how you voted, the state voted Republican.

I place the Value of MY VOTE ... not YOU

Chris
10-16-2014, 05:39 PM
I place the Value of MY VOTE ... not YOU

Your value to yourself. But your contention is you vote counts mathematically, is of value politically, and that has been demonstrated false, however much you personally value your own vote.

Cigar
10-16-2014, 05:49 PM
Your value to yourself. But your contention is you vote counts mathematically, is of value politically, and that has been demonstrated false, however much you personally value your own vote.

I know if I don't Vote I have no Value

Chris
10-16-2014, 05:53 PM
I know if I don't Vote I have no Value

Now you're repeating yourself. But it was a good discussion. :D

Ransom
10-16-2014, 07:22 PM
The value of your vote has little to do with the value of Obama's accomplishments, if any.

How much do you think you vote contributed to his or any presidential election? Last election you were one of 240,926,957 eligible voters, and if you want to count only voters, one of 130,292,355.* How much did your vote count?


* http://elections.gmu.edu/Turnout_2012G.html

Your vote counts in here. It makes you relevant, gives you right to grievance making. It gives evidence you're not taking it all for granted, it reveals you have some perspective on reality. Respect for your country and what not. Fence sitters rarely make history, Chris.

Cigar
10-16-2014, 07:46 PM
:grin: At the end of the day, when it's all said and done ... results is what counts.

... and I'm happy with the results.

Of course, your mileage may vary :laugh:

Keep Voting for McCain and Romney types ... please :grin:

Chris
10-16-2014, 07:48 PM
Your vote counts in here. It makes you relevant, gives you right to grievance making. It gives evidence you're not taking it all for granted, it reveals you have some perspective on reality. Respect for your country and what not. Fence sitters rarely make history, Chris.

Talk counts more that vote.

And in our corrupt system money talks loudest.

Cigar
10-16-2014, 07:50 PM
Talk counts more that vote.

And in our corrupt system money talks loudest.

You keep talking and I'll keep adding up the Votes :laugh:

Chris
10-16-2014, 07:55 PM
You keep talking and I'll keep adding up the Votes :laugh:

I forgot you're from the Chitown area and probably vote more than once each election.

Cigar
10-16-2014, 07:57 PM
I forgot you're from the Chitown area and probably vote more than once each election.

At least 8, that's why my Votes Count :laugh:

donttread
10-16-2014, 10:10 PM
If you don't Vote, you have no right to complain about the direction of the country ...

Because no one's Vote is more important than "yours"

Unless you don't Vote, then "everyone" Vote is more important that "yours"

:thumbsup20: That's a Truth Statement

True as far as it goes. I would add that it is our duty to vote but also our duty to research before we vote and that if we do that we cannot in good conscience vote Donkephant

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 03:17 AM
True as far as it goes. I would add that it is our duty to vote but also our duty to research before we vote and that if we do that we cannot in good conscience vote Donkephant

Unfortunately voting for some 3% malcontent is usually a vote for the donkey.

so you actually are voting for one of the candidates that you say you don't like.

and probably the one who reflects your views the least.

Peter1469
10-17-2014, 04:22 AM
Unfortunately voting for some 3% malcontent is usually a vote for the donkey.

so you actually are voting for one of the candidates that you say you don't like.

and probably the one who reflects your views the least.

Untrue.

And don't ask independents to vote for a piece of crap. Run a decent candidate. Don't blame us if you lose. That is 100% on you.

donttread
10-17-2014, 06:59 AM
Unfortunately voting for some 3% malcontent is usually a vote for the donkey.

so you actually are voting for one of the candidates that you say you don't like.

and probably the one who reflects your views the least.

I reject that Donkephant propaganda and so should you as it makes real change impossible.

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 07:13 AM
it makes real change impossible.

No it doesn't.

you can change the Republican Party from within and defeat the dems much easier than you can start a 3rd party and defeat both the repubs and the dems.

you are only helping the democrats consolidate power.

Chris
10-17-2014, 07:35 AM
Voting 3rd party or not voting is not voting Dem or Rep.

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 07:43 AM
Voting 3rd party or not voting is not voting Dem or Rep.

Actually it is.

Ron Paul and Gary Johnson did not run for the democrat party nomination before losing and their rabid supporters walking away in a huff to vote 3rd party in the general election.

there is a reason that 3rd party's hurt the republicans more than the democrats.

Chris
10-17-2014, 07:47 AM
Actually it is not. Say I vote Independent:

D 0
R 0
I 1

How is my I vote moved?

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 08:00 AM
Actually it is not. Say I vote Independent:

D 0
R 0
I 1

How is my I vote moved?

i just explained it to you.

Why did Gary Johnson and Ron Paul attempt to win the repub nomination instead of democrat?

Chris
10-17-2014, 08:02 AM
i just explained it to you.

Why did Gary Johnson and Ron Paul attempt to win the repub nomination instead of democrat?

I was looking for a rational explanation not a worn out canard.

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 08:07 AM
I was looking for a rational explanation .

I've given you a rational explanation.

3rd party candidates hurt the republican effort which helps the democrats.

Chris
10-17-2014, 08:25 AM
I've given you a rational explanation.

3rd party candidates hurt the republican effort which helps the democrats.

Sorry, but that's not rational.

If I vote 3rd party it helps the 3rd party. Period.

D 0
R 0
I 1

does not mysteriously become

D +1
R -1
I 0

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 08:32 AM
Sorry, but that's not rational.

If I vote 3rd party it helps the 3rd party. Period.

D 0
R 0
I 1

does not mysteriously become

D +1
R -1
I 0

Third party candidates draw votes from the republicans.

thats why Gary Johnson ran for the repub nomination.

if you were the only voter going 3rd party it would not bother me.

but independents have more in common with republicans and that hurts republican candidates in the general election.

i guess you don't want to admit that your 3rd party helps the dems but it does.

donttread
10-17-2014, 08:35 AM
No it doesn't.

you can change the Republican Party from within and defeat the dems much easier than you can start a 3rd party and defeat both the repubs and the dems.

you are only helping the democrats consolidate power.

Any vote away from any Donkephant is a good vote. the change from within plan has failed miserably.

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 08:38 AM
Any vote away from any Donkephant is a good vote. the change from within plan has failed miserably.

The third party plan is failing even more.

all you are doing is helping the dems.

Chris
10-17-2014, 08:57 AM
Third party candidates draw votes from the republicans.

thats why Gary Johnson ran for the repub nomination.

if you were the only voter going 3rd party it would not bother me.

but independents have more in common with republicans and that hurts republican candidates in the general election.

i guess you don't want to admit that your 3rd party helps the dems but it does.



Third party candidates draw votes from the republicans.

True. What I said.


your 3rd party helps the dems but it does.

False. What you said.


Repetition is boring. I haven't worked in a factory for 40 years.

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 09:02 AM
Repetition is boring.

We are both repeating ourselves since you refuse to think critically.

when I made the point about libertarian candidates only running in republican primaries instead of the democrats you had no rational explanation.

Chris
10-17-2014, 09:10 AM
We are both repeating ourselves since you refuse to think critically.

when I made the point about libertarian candidates only running in republican primaries instead of the democrats you had no rational explanation.

I have no explanation for libertarians running as Reps, makes no sense to me.

I asked you for a rational explanation of your claim not voting Rep is voting Dem, which would require you to think critically. You've failed to provide such an answer, only old canards.

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 09:15 AM
I have no explanation for libertarians running as Reps, makes no sense to me.



Maybe you have no explanation because I'm right about 3rd party efforts only hurting the repubs and helping the democrats.

Common Sense
10-17-2014, 09:18 AM
Maybe you have no explanation because I'm right about 3rd party efforts only hurting the repubs and helping the democrats.

I sort of agree with you on this point. That being said, a third party is exactly what the US needs. But it would take a sacrifice and it would probably take votes away in a sense from Republicans.

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 09:23 AM
I sort of agree with you on this point. That being said, a third party is exactly what the US needs. But it would take a sacrifice and it would probably take votes away in a sense from Republicans.

I don't think you will ever see the payoff from that strategy.

big government liberal democrats will win more elections over time and turn America into a one party state.

Common Sense
10-17-2014, 09:26 AM
I don't think you will ever see the payoff from that strategy.

big government liberal democrats will win more elections over time and turn America into a one party state.

...sort of like you have now? A third party would give people an option. Third parties are great power checks to entrenched political parties. It works well in parliamentary systems.

Chris
10-17-2014, 09:26 AM
Maybe you have no explanation because I'm right about 3rd party efforts only hurting the repubs and helping the democrats.

My having no explanation for libertarians who run as Republicans doesn't make you right about voting 3rd party is voting for Democrats and against Republicans.

You're a little short on logic there, mac. There's no maybe about that.

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 09:33 AM
...sort of like you have now? A third party would give people an option. Third parties are great power checks to entrenched political parties. It works well in parliamentary systems.

What we have now is a united democrat party that is successfully pushing bigger government and a weak, divided Republican Party that is in therapy.

Republican politicians are persuadable but all you want to do is torpedo them and open the door for more democrats.

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 09:37 AM
My having no explanation for libertarians who run as Republicans doesn't make you right about voting 3rd party is voting for Democrats and against Republicans.

You're a little short on logic there, mac. There's no maybe about that.

Ive already given you the logic but you choose to ignore it.

Chris
10-17-2014, 09:41 AM
Ive already given you the logic but you choose to ignore it.

No, you've given me an old canard that just repeats your claim that voting 3rd party is a vote for Dems and against Reps. You have offer not logical, rational explanation.

There is no explanation for this:


If I vote 3rd party it helps the 3rd party. Period.

D 0
R 0
I 1

does not mysteriously become

D +1
R -1
I 0

What you're saying is nonsense.

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 09:47 AM
What you're saying is nonsense.

The logic is there but you refuse to admit it.

Chris
10-17-2014, 10:03 AM
The logic is there but you refuse to admit it.

No one sees your "logic" but you, mac.

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 10:10 AM
No one sees your "logic" but you, mac.

Certainly none of the stealth democrats on this board.

there seems to be about 4 or 5 five of you.

Common Sense
10-17-2014, 10:12 AM
Certainly none of the stealth democrats on this board.

there seems to be about 4 or 5 five of you.

Maybe you should make a list and start some hearings. Name names!

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 10:13 AM
Maybe you should make a list and start some hearings. Name names!

They know who they are.

Cigar
10-17-2014, 10:13 AM
Maybe you should make a list and start some hearings. Name names!

Start with the List of Convictions over the last 8 Decades :laugh:

Common Sense
10-17-2014, 10:14 AM
They know who they are.

The public needs to know. Expose these commies! The red menace must be stopped!

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 10:19 AM
The public needs to know. Expose these commies! The red menace must be stopped!

If I though it would help I might.

but you already know who you are and aren't going to change anyway.

Chris
10-17-2014, 10:58 AM
Certainly none of the stealth democrats on this board.

there seems to be about 4 or 5 five of you.


Common Sense is Canadian. Your assumptions are as faulty as your logic is fallacious. But I'll leave you to your conspiracy theories, no one else is taking you seriously.

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 11:01 AM
Common Sense is Canadian. Your assumptions are as faulty as your logic is fallacious. But I'll leave you to your conspiracy theories, no one else is taking you seriously.

does he admit to being Canadian?

If so I'll remember that in the future.

Mini Me
10-17-2014, 05:06 PM
At least 8, that's why my Votes Count :laugh:

Vote early and often!!!! LOL!

Mini Me
10-17-2014, 05:23 PM
No it doesn't.

you can change the Republican Party from within and defeat the dems much easier than you can start a 3rd party and defeat both the repubs and the dems.

you are only helping the democrats consolidate power.

But the Rethuglican Party tried to change the last two years, with Rand Paul leading the way, and it just could not do that.
And, Mr. Paul abandoned his libertarian changes and went right back to snorting KOCH! All roads lead to KOCH and Adelson big PAC money, they are addicted to it. And fellow Pee Partier, Teddy Cruz led his band of lemmings right off the fiscal cliff with his government shutdown, and marathon fillibusters.

The message is the same as always; support corporate fascists, the military industrial complex, and the hatred for black and brown people and women and gays, and working folks goes on as always. It is baked in to their idiology.

Many Rethug voters complained about the last two POTUS candidates not representing them, but that's not true.

Senator McInsane represented the PNAC Neocon War Machine perfectly!

And Mitt Romoney represented the Wall Street corporate raiders perfectly!

That is the evil core of the Rethuglican Party, which does not represent the people in any way, shape or form. Voters just do not realize they have been HAD!

Mac-7
10-17-2014, 05:40 PM
But the Rethuglican Party tried to change the last two years, with Rand Paul leading the way, and it just could not do that.
And, Mr. Paul abandoned his libertarian changes and went right back to snorting KOCH! All roads lead to KOCH and Adelson big PAC money, they are addicted to it. And fellow Pee Partier, Teddy Cruz led his band of lemmings right off the fiscal cliff with his government shutdown, and marathon fillibusters.

The message is the same as always; support corporate fascists, the military industrial complex, and the hatred for black and brown people and women and gays, and working folks goes on as always. It is baked in to their idiology.

Many Rethug voters complained about the last two POTUS candidates not representing them, but that's not true.

Senator McInsane represented the PNAC Neocon War Machine perfectly!

And Mitt Romoney represented the Wall Street corporate raiders perfectly!

That is the evil core of the Rethuglican Party, which does not represent the people in any way, shape or form. Voters just do not realize they have been HAD!



You sound like a typical "independent" on this board who only hates republicans.

donttread
10-18-2014, 08:29 AM
Maybe you have no explanation because I'm right about 3rd party efforts only hurting the repubs and helping the democrats.


Mac we don't care about hurting the repubs because we see them as no different than the dems. Between the two whom gets power is meaningless

donttread
10-18-2014, 08:31 AM
You sound like a typical "independent" on this board who only hates republicans.

The problem with Idependents is that most of their candidates aren't. Their simply Donkephant castoffs who cannot take no for an answer

Mac-7
10-19-2014, 03:42 AM
Mac we don't care about hurting the repubs because we see them as no different than the dems. Between the two whom gets power is meaningless

Thats what indies tell each other but I think you have chosen sides.

because 3 party candidates only hurt republicans and result in more democrats in office.

at least be honest with yourselves and admit you are fellow travelers with the dems because the social issues mean more to you than being fiscally conservative.

kilgram
10-19-2014, 03:58 AM
What we have now is a united democrat party that is successfully pushing bigger government and a weak, divided Republican Party that is in therapy.

Republican politicians are persuadable but all you want to do is torpedo them and open the door for more democrats.
Hahaha. Seriously.

I love the partidist fanboys. Whatever they are pro- PSOE, pro-PP pro Labour Party or pro Democrat or pro Republican Party. All you, whatever country you come from. You are all the same. Repeating always the same arguments. So predictable.

Seriously, it is incredible how some attitudes are exactly the same, whatever the culture.

Well, voting a third party is reducing vote share to Republican and Democrat. To both parties harm. Both parties have harmed the public opinion about them. That one is losing more votes than the other, is possible. But that is the way to go.

Peter1469
10-19-2014, 07:41 AM
3rd party candidates don't hurt the GOP. The GOP hurts the GOP.

Stop running trash.


Thats what indies tell each other but I think you have chosen sides.

because 3 party candidates only hurt republicans and result in more democrats in office.

at least be honest with yourselves and admit you are fellow travelers with the dems because the social issues mean more to you than being fiscally conservative.

donttread
10-19-2014, 08:38 AM
Thats what indies tell each other but I think you have chosen sides.

because 3 party candidates only hurt republicans and result in more democrats in office.

at least be honest with yourselves and admit you are fellow travelers with the dems because the social issues mean more to you than being fiscally conservative.

donttread
10-19-2014, 08:40 AM
First of all there are third parties , like the Green Party or Socialist Parties that dems are more likely to vote for
Secondly, neither of the "two major parties" happens to be fiscally conservative or socially liberal despite their rhetoric.

Mac-7
10-19-2014, 09:22 AM
First of all there are third parties , like the Green Party or Socialist Parties that dems are more likely to vote for
Secondly, neither of the "two major parties" happens to be fiscally conservative or socially liberal despite their rhetoric.

The problem with liberal third parties is that the democrat party is already so far left that it easily represents most left winers and only the truly insane leftwingers are still not satisfied.

Mac-7
10-22-2014, 08:03 PM
3rd party candidates don't hurt the GOP. The GOP hurts the GOP.

Stop running trash.

More Americans see your candidate as trash than you have who hate republicans.

in fact your little party almost never elects itself and can only help elect democrats.

Chris
10-22-2014, 08:35 PM
More Americans see your candidate as trash than you have who hate republicans.

in fact your little party almost never elects itself and can only help elect democrats.



So, Matalese, calling candidates trash is bad, huh.

Matty
10-22-2014, 08:36 PM
So, @Matalese (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=796), calling candidates trash is bad, huh.
What is your opinion? Do you have a mouth? Or just an anus?

Captain Obvious
10-22-2014, 08:38 PM
What is your opinion? Do you have a mouth? Or just an anus?

Innuendo and out the other.

Chris
10-22-2014, 08:41 PM
What is your opinion? Do you have a mouth? Or just an anus?

So you contradict yourself again. It's wrong to call your Romney trash but okay for Reps to call other candidates trash.