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Trinnity
05-26-2012, 12:54 PM
Egypt faces division in electoral run-off (http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/9fa85fb2-a63f-11e1-9453-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1vzwYMm7T)

A committed Islamist and a former military man will compete for the Egyptian presidency next month, in a historic election pitting the country’s two main camps against each other.
Mohamed Morsi (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1e804c1c-a723-11e1-96a8-00144feab7de.html), an engineer and stalwart of the Muslim Brotherhood, and Ahmed Shafiq (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1a2a4a10-a673-11e1-aef2-00144feabdc0.html), a former air force pilot and cabinet minister under Hosni Mubarak, the deposed president, took the top two positions in the first round of Egypt’s presidential elections, according to preliminary results released on Friday.





The Muslim Brotherhood (http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/2012/05/25/egypt-brotherhood-v-old-regime/) characterised the vote as a choice between “a new leadership that promises a complete change to the old corrupt ways and a bright future for Egypt, and a member of the old guard harking to the Mubarak era”.


Freedom to choose between the military and the MB. :rollseyes:

Good grief. Sharia or military....
I don't think the ME understands democracy. How could they? They've never experienced it. Freedom is not choosing Sharia Law. Just my two cents~

Thoughts?

URF8
05-26-2012, 01:08 PM
I think Egypt is entering a period of darkness that will last for a very long time.

Trinnity
05-26-2012, 01:33 PM
I wonder if people there worry all the time.

Conley
05-26-2012, 02:41 PM
Freedom to choose between the military and the MB. :rollseyes:

Good grief. Sharia or military....
I don't think the ME understands democracy. How could they? They've never experienced it. Freedom is not choosing Sharia Law. Just my two cents~

Thoughts?

Egypt isn't a big oil producer but I think the entire region only has about a hundred years at max to make something of itself before oil is a part of mankind's history. If they haven't taken advantage of it by now is there any hope for the future?

Trinnity
05-26-2012, 03:23 PM
Point taken.

Sultan
05-27-2012, 03:15 AM
This is a very difficult thing to answer in one post but no Egyptians are not worried all the time as you think.

Of all the ME if you visited you would find Egypt the most funny and good natured. Egyptians should not always be linked to Arabs as we are different in many ways. We are only an Arab republic but not Arabs as such. We go from Nubians to Mediterraneans to Maghrib (Spanish influence) but also Egyptian. We are famous for hospitality and peaceful nature and funny. If you knew the region then you know us.

The elections were clearly rigged. The SPEC and General Prosecutor has the evidence now of rigging. Just one example is 900,000 flase ids given to police so they could vote in elections for Shafik. Police and army are not allowed to vote so an officer has handed the evidence of the police making copies of police id without police logo so they could vote. That gave Shafik alomst one million illegal votes. There was also evidence given to prosecutor about ex pat vote rigging where they voted twice.

The people do not want Shafik felool to be part of the election. The revolution was to rid ourselves of the regime not re install it.

The curious thing is Shafik got huge support from Christians which means they support old regime. That makes you wonder if they were the thugs who fought the revolutionaries?? If they were the ones paid by the camel men in the camel battle??, if they were the ones who attacked Tahrir with molotovs??

Mubarak was famous for instigating sectarian attacks when his popularity was in jeopardy or elections were due. The question now is how involved were the Coptics in this aqs they clearly see the old regime as the one they want to return.

There are very difficult time ahead for Egypt because we cannot fix 5000 years of dictatorship in 15 months. We cannot throw off a US puppet regime without a fight and they will not lie down and die easily.

Egyptians for the first time in their lives tasted what is is like to be free to choose. If you never witnessed this then you cannot compare, you dont know the feeling how it feels to end brutality and oppression not just from the ruler but from the rulers allies.

I have never been a supporter of MB. Not for any specific reason its just that Egyptians never experienced voting or politics or discussions in public. We were ruled by an iron fist and brutality. We are new to this involvement in politics and making choices because we never had that before and of course we will make mistakes but we are united in that we do not want felool return. We never want to go back to that again.

The MB have suffered decades of oppression and torture under Mubarak etc. They were the ones who fed poor Egyptians when Mubarak was investing in Swiss bank accounts. The MB are doctors and lawyers and they gave free treatment and free defence in courts to the poor. They opened free clinics and schools and they were the ones to feed the poor families in the villages when Mubarak ignored them.

People should realise that the MB aare not what the West or Mubarak wants thjem to believe. I am not a supporter of them but I do know the good they do and the oppression they suffered and I cannot deny that. They won because the people remembered what they done for them. They voted because they are alive because the MB paid for their operations and medicines and cancer treatments etc etc etc because Mubarak did not.

We are in a situation now of the ex regime now wanting to give up it's throne and its massive real estate and businesses they acquired here illegally.

If you want to really know the main problem in the region then look at Saudi. That is where the radicals and fundamentalist come from. The 9/11 hijackers were Saudi. Wahabi ideology is taught in Saudi mosques and is spread through people like Bin Laden to Pakistan and Afghanistan and beyond. Fanatical Wahabism from Saudi is the major problem BUT the problem is the US and Israel are huge supporters of Saudi and their Wahabi doctrine. The question you have to ask yourself is why is that?

MMC
05-27-2012, 06:46 AM
This is a very difficult thing to answer in one post but no Egyptians are not worried all the time as you think.

Of all the ME if you visited you would find Egypt the most funny and good natured. Egyptians should not always be linked to Arabs as we are different in many ways. We are only an Arab republic but not Arabs as such. We go from Nubians to Mediterraneans to Maghrib (Spanish influence) but also Egyptian. We are famous for hospitality and peaceful nature and funny. If you knew the region then you know us.

The elections were clearly rigged. The SPEC and General Prosecutor has the evidence now of rigging. Just one example is 900,000 flase ids given to police so they could vote in elections for Shafik. Police and army are not allowed to vote so an officer has handed the evidence of the police making copies of police id without police logo so they could vote. That gave Shafik alomst one million illegal votes. There was also evidence given to prosecutor about ex pat vote rigging where they voted twice.

The people do not want Shafik felool to be part of the election. The revolution was to rid ourselves of the regime not re install it.

The curious thing is Shafik got huge support from Christians which means they support old regime. That makes you wonder if they were the thugs who fought the revolutionaries?? If they were the ones paid by the camel men in the camel battle??, if they were the ones who attacked Tahrir with molotovs??

Mubarak was famous for instigating sectarian attacks when his popularity was in jeopardy or elections were due. The question now is how involved were the Coptics in this aqs they clearly see the old regime as the one they want to return.

There are very difficult time ahead for Egypt because we cannot fix 5000 years of dictatorship in 15 months. We cannot throw off a US puppet regime without a fight and they will not lie down and die easily.

Egyptians for the first time in their lives tasted what is is like to be free to choose. If you never witnessed this then you cannot compare, you dont know the feeling how it feels to end brutality and oppression not just from the ruler but from the rulers allies.

I have never been a supporter of MB. Not for any specific reason its just that Egyptians never experienced voting or politics or discussions in public. We were ruled by an iron fist and brutality. We are new to this involvement in politics and making choices because we never had that before and of course we will make mistakes but we are united in that we do not want felool return. We never want to go back to that again.

The MB have suffered decades of oppression and torture under Mubarak etc. They were the ones who fed poor Egyptians when Mubarak was investing in Swiss bank accounts. The MB are doctors and lawyers and they gave free treatment and free defence in courts to the poor. They opened free clinics and schools and they were the ones to feed the poor families in the villages when Mubarak ignored them.

People should realise that the MB aare not what the West or Mubarak wants thjem to believe. I am not a supporter of them but I do know the good they do and the oppression they suffered and I cannot deny that. They won because the people remembered what they done for them. They voted because they are alive because the MB paid for their operations and medicines and cancer treatments etc etc etc because Mubarak did not.

We are in a situation now of the ex regime now wanting to give up it's throne and its massive real estate and businesses they acquired here illegally.

If you want to really know the main problem in the region then look at Saudi. That is where the radicals and fundamentalist come from. The 9/11 hijackers were Saudi. Wahabi ideology is taught in Saudi mosques and is spread through people like Bin Laden to Pakistan and Afghanistan and beyond. Fanatical Wahabism from Saudi is the major problem BUT the problem is the US and Israel are huge supporters of Saudi and their Wahabi doctrine. The question you have to ask yourself is why is that?

Perhaps the Egyptians should learn about Democracy first.....try studying it, before attempting to create a new form of it. Trying to blame a US puppet for Egypts backwards ways.....doesn't make up for their lack of understanding in a civilized World.

So what the MB provides Charity. If they did not no one would give a damn as to anything they have to say. Can't have followers if one has nothing to give.

Trinnity
05-27-2012, 09:54 AM
What about Sharia law, Sultan? As I understand it the MB is for Sharia.
But Sharia is harsh and cruel to women. Shouldn't women be equals?

It's hard for us to understand or approve of a society that treats women as less than men.

Oh, one more thing....about worrying all the time: I was talking about the Israeli's. I just posted that on the wrong thread somehow.
I would think that the citizens of Israel must worry all the time about attack as they are surrounded by enemies on all sides.

RollingWave
05-27-2012, 09:40 PM
Egypt isn't a big oil producer but I think the entire region only has about a hundred years at max to make something of itself before oil is a part of mankind's history. If they haven't taken advantage of it by now is there any hope for the future?

Egypt is better off than most middle east country in this regard anyway, they still have the Nile, and unless someone invents teleportation in the near future the Suez cannal's relevenace will remain high oil or not. Egypt was one of the most prosperous region in the Pan Med world through most of history anyway. there's no real reason to believe that running out of oil will sink them. figuring out a stable and reasonablly effective government though is another matter.

FWIW, Tunisia also voted in an islamist bent new government, it's doing quiet well actually. much better than Greece at least (though that's no exactly a high bar :grin: but there is some irony in that Islamist democracy > birthplace of democracy) from a realistic POV I highly highly doubt Egypt's law will even approach Saudi level (which IS much closer to Sharia law) let alone really going for the most ridiculasly strict interpetation of Sharia law. How it avoids going through as much pain as Turkey in actually getting the military out of politics is really a far more realistic question then dreading the people actually choosing what most of them believe in. despite the protest a year+ ago being largely headed by libral middle class and students, those folks make up maybe some 30% of the population at best, it's hardly a suprirse that their getting crushed in the elections.

To be honest the western medias and population as a whole probably have an overly irrational fear of the so called "islamist / sharia" part of democracy in the ME, I could point out the obvious example of Turkey, where in recent decade they've voted in a considerablly more religiously conservative (aka islamist) party and the result is that they've out performed all the EU countries in relative terms except maybe Germany, and they even manage to at least so far contain the ever present military coup threat. And the obvious irony that in relative to domestic population terms Saudi Arabia, the most Sharia state of them all, have a huge foreign non-muslim population working and living there.

moon
05-28-2012, 03:46 AM
It's hard for us to understand or approve of a society that treats women as less than men.

*

Accepting this in the spirit in which it was intended,* such societies exist and have flourished for thousands of years. * What do sociologists and anthropologists make of it ? * *The perceived subjugation of women isn't confined to Islam, of course. *It has been the norm, almost universally, until very recently. *I could be wrong but I believe that even ' the mother of parliaments ' didn't give a democratic vote to women until early in the 20th century. *What is our basis for criticizing , in this instance, Egyptian culture ? * Would Egyptian women vote for the Mos. Bros if they thought that they would become subjugated ? * I rather think not. *So what do we know about the Mos. Bros really ? * If we are to believe the anti-Islamic propaganda that is shoveled over us daily by our media- *much of which has shabby intent- *and see muslim women as chattels then what about their view of Western women as mere sex objects, depicted relentlessly as open-crotched advertising material to be placed in glass cages and leered at by alcohol-soaked males with as much spirituality about them as a luminous dildo ? * The whole idea of the democratic process is to give the demos a say in their own governance. *I have no doubt at all that Egyptians would be mortified if Americans- *with a choice of just two sub-standard candidates- *should elect Mitt the Mormon. *Yet that is America's choice. *If Egyptians prefer a period of self-collection and reflection over the enforced brashness and humiliation of the Mubarak years then that should be welcomed. *Western women should take a look at themselves and how they are trafficked and exploited in their own society before they attempt to create sets of values for women elsewhere.*

Rolling Wave makes some good points.*

MMC
05-28-2012, 04:29 AM
Egypt is better off than most middle east country in this regard anyway, they still have the Nile, and unless someone invents teleportation in the near future the Suez cannal's relevenace will remain high oil or not. Egypt was one of the most prosperous region in the Pan Med world through most of history anyway. there's no real reason to believe that running out of oil will sink them. figuring out a stable and reasonablly effective government though is another matter.

FWIW, Tunisia also voted in an islamist bent new government, it's doing quiet well actually. much better than Greece at least (though that's no exactly a high bar :grin: but there is some irony in that Islamist democracy > birthplace of democracy) from a realistic POV I highly highly doubt Egypt's law will even approach Saudi level (which IS much closer to Sharia law) let alone really going for the most ridiculasly strict interpetation of Sharia law. How it avoids going through as much pain as Turkey in actually getting the military out of politics is really a far more realistic question then dreading the people actually choosing what most of them believe in. despite the protest a year+ ago being largely headed by libral middle class and students, those folks make up maybe some 30% of the population at best, it's hardly a suprirse that their getting crushed in the elections.

To be honest the western medias and population as a whole probably have an overly irrational fear of the so called "islamist / sharia" part of democracy in the ME, I could point out the obvious example of Turkey, where in recent decade they've voted in a considerablly more religiously conservative (aka islamist) party and the result is that they've out performed all the EU countries in relative terms except maybe Germany, and they even manage to at least so far contain the ever present military coup threat. And the obvious irony that in relative to domestic population terms Saudi Arabia, the most Sharia state of them all, have a huge foreign non-muslim population working and living there.


Maybe the sheep have some sort of fear RW.....thats about it. No real Warriors of the West fear anything in the ME or that comes out of it. Not one Arab, not one Muslim, Not ANY into Sharia Law. Time for those mentioned to wake up to that very FACT.

Islamist Democracy >birthplace of Democracy. Care to elaborate?

Course maybe the Egyptians can explain how they need 70 million from others so they can set up their own Elections? Running to the IMF and always crying to the US they need more money. Looks Like that 40 Billion Czarkosy was promising just isnt going to happen.

More Americans are becoming aware of what is taking place with our Money that is being given to such backward countries. Some intend to make it an issue for US politicans to deal with whether they like it or not.

RollingWave
05-28-2012, 05:08 AM
Well, the question of why Egypt need the money you should look no further than the fact that they have 200+ F16s and 1000+ M1 Abrahams (!!!!) . in another word, they have a first rate arms inventory without a a first rate industrial and economic capcity. (for comparison, the US have 8000ish M1 Abrahams, but Egypt's GDP is not 1/8 of the US's, its moer like 1/30th.


It should of course be noted that the US did make money from most of those sales or co-construction projects, so maybe the US politicians should better explain the whole "give aid from taxpayer money to foriegn country so they use that money to buy arms from private US contractor" part... in fact most of the US aid going to egypt IS the military aid... the amazing irony is that Egypt receive what is essentially a irrelevantly small economic aid from the US, but a huge military aid. now THAT should really use some explaination.

Accordin to 2010 statistic, on average one egyption recieved about 5 bucks in US economic aid, they're poor but they're not THAT poor where 5 bucks really makes a shite load of difference. on the other hand the military aid to Egypt in that year... is 3 times that number. now that's some crazy stupid shite.

MMC
05-28-2012, 05:14 AM
Accepting this in the spirit in which it was intended,* such societies exist and have flourished for thousands of years. * What do sociologists and anthropologists make of it ? * *The perceived subjugation of women isn't confined to Islam, of course. *It has been the norm, almost universally, until very recently. *I could be wrong but I believe that even ' the mother of parliaments ' didn't give a democratic vote to women until early in the 20th century. *What is our basis for criticizing , in this instance, Egyptian culture ? * Would Egyptian women vote for the Mos. Bros if they thought that they would become subjugated ? * I rather think not. *So what do we know about the Mos. Bros really ? * If we are to believe the anti-Islamic propaganda that is shoveled over us daily by our media- *much of which has shabby intent- *and see muslim women as chattels then what about their view of Western women as mere sex objects, depicted relentlessly as open-crotched advertising material to be placed in glass cages and leered at by alcohol-soaked males with as much spirituality about them as a luminous dildo ? * The whole idea of the democratic process is to give the demos a say in their own governance. *I have no doubt at all that Egyptians would be mortified if Americans- *with a choice of just two sub-standard candidates- *should elect Mitt the Mormon. *Yet that is America's choice. *If Egyptians prefer a period of self-collection and reflection over the enforced brashness and humiliation of the Mubarak years then that should be welcomed. *Western women should take a look at themselves and how they are trafficked and exploited in their own society before they attempt to create sets of values for women elsewhere.*

Rolling Wave makes some good points.*


What do we know about the MB? One they couldnt fight their way out of wet paper bag. 2. They have no heart period.....when having to face those that do not fear them. Hows things working out for them in Libya? Where the Berbers have NP showing the MB where they stand in their Country.

How's things working out for the MB with Syria. Looks Like they are getting their azzes handed to them once again. Do you think the Bedouin Tribes really give a shit what the MB has to say? Do you think the MB will look out for their rights?

The Problem with the Sunni Arabs is.....once they don't have the Shia or Israel or the Persians to blame. They will then immediately fall upon each other like a pack of dogs. This will be played out as those conflicts arise over what very little drinking water the M.E. has......maybe the Egyptians Never really understood what Freedom is and the right to make a Choice is all about.

Hence their difficulities with things in the real world now.

RollingWave
05-28-2012, 05:18 AM
To reiterate, according to 2010 numbers, the following country recieved more than 1 billion dollars from the US in AID.

1.Afganistan (11 billion!!!)
2.Pakistan
3.Israel
4 Iraq
5.Egypt
6.Haiti (the only one where almost all of it was economic)

and in terms of military aid

1.Afganistan : 6.8 Billion
2.Israel : 2.8 Bill
3.Egypt: 1.3 Bill
4.Iraq : 1 Bill

Take what you will from those numbers, I'd just like to point out that only Ron Paul have said anything close to shutting down aid to EVERYONE (which I would agree with too on an idealogical basis), most GOP are hardly saying that. espeically the military aid part.

MMC
05-28-2012, 05:26 AM
Well, the question of why Egypt need the money you should look no further than the fact that they have 200+ F16s and 1000+ M1 Abrahams (!!!!) . in another word, they have a first rate arms inventory without a a first rate industrial and economic capcity. (for comparison, the US have 8000ish M1 Abrahams, but Egypt's GDP is not 1/8 of the US's, its moer like 1/30th.


It should of course be noted that the US did make money from most of those sales or co-construction projects, so maybe the US politicians should better explain the whole "give aid from taxpayer money to foriegn country so they use that money to buy arms from private US contractor" part... in fact most of the US aid going to egypt IS the military aid... the amazing irony is that Egypt receive what is essentially a irrelevantly small economic aid from the US, but a huge military aid. now THAT should really use some explaination.

Accordin to 2010 statistic, on average one egyption recieved about 5 bucks in US economic aid, they're poor but they're not THAT poor where 5 bucks really makes a shite load of difference. on the other hand the military aid to Egypt in that year... is 3 times that number. now that's some crazy stupid shite.

You will get no excuse out of me for it.....you are right. It should be questioned. Furthermore it should be stopped. There should be no more of sharing Military technology with Egypt or any other Me Countries. I also favor not sharing that technology with any other countries as well. While I am sure the US is concerned over Control of that Suez Canal either way someone has to control it. Either way there will have to be diplomacy over it.

If as a Superpower.....and say a hostile enemy of the US were to gain control of it. Then either way the matter will have to be dealt with. If this means War. Looks Like whoever has control of it at the time.....their azz will be out.

MMC
05-28-2012, 05:38 AM
To reiterate, according to 2010 numbers, the following country recieved more than 1 billion dollars from the US in AID.

1.Afganistan (11 billion!!!)
2.Pakistan
3.Israel
4 Iraq
5.Egypt
6.Haiti (the only one where almost all of it was economic)

and in terms of military aid

1.Afganistan : 6.8 Billion
2.Israel : 2.8 Bill
3.Egypt: 1.3 Bill
4.Iraq : 1 Bill

Take what you will from those numbers, I'd just like to point out that only Ron Paul have said anything close to shutting down aid to EVERYONE (which I would agree with too on an idealogical basis), most GOP are hardly saying that. espeically the military aid part.

You forgot the Saud, Bahrain, Yemen, Oman, Kuwait, and The United Arab Emirates. Yeah Ron Paul was the only one to say such. Do you think that because of the same set of politicians that have been around for the last 25 to 30 years that this could be part of the problem with that Military Economic Aid. Maybe the US being on the brink of financial collapse and the people waking up to this fact will change that Foreign Policy.

Lets not forget the NGO's and NFP's and all that money too. Do you think Egypt can stand on it's own without US aid? Do you think they can build up their own infrastructure? Now here is the tricky part.....do you think that whoever is in power in Egypt can govern their own people?

Sultan
05-28-2012, 06:07 AM
Perhaps the Egyptians should learn about Democracy first.....try studying it, before attempting to create a new form of it. Trying to blame a US puppet for Egypts backwards ways.....doesn't make up for their lack of understanding in a civilized World.

So what the MB provides Charity. If they did not no one would give a damn as to anything they have to say. Can't have followers if one has nothing to give.

Have you ever been to Egypt?

Tell me what you experienced from my people.

Sultan
05-28-2012, 06:14 AM
What about Sharia law, Sultan? As I understand it the MB is for Sharia.
But Sharia is harsh and cruel to women. Shouldn't women be equals?

It's hard for us to understand or approve of a society that treats women as less than men.

Oh, one more thing....about worrying all the time: I was talking about the Israeli's. I just posted that on the wrong thread somehow.
I would think that the citizens of Israel must worry all the time about attack as they are surrounded by enemies on all sides.

First it is not called 'Sharia law'.

There is no such thing as Sharia law. That is like saying 'law law'.
Sharia is Arabic word meaning 'law' that is all. The Coptic Christians have their own Sharia here. Their own 'law' here. Our criminal court uses 'French Sharia'. French Law. The Western English has corrupted it's meaning from Arabic. If you say Sharia Law to an Arab speaker they will laugh at you it makes no sense.

Can you explain how we treat women less than men. Explain how I treat my wife in my home please, so I understand how to reply to your question.

MMC
05-28-2012, 06:22 AM
Have you ever been to Egypt?

Tell me what you experienced from my people.

Actually I havent been there. How many real Egyptians left? Meaning non-Arab, and still believe in the Egyptian Gods or whatever. What can you tell me about your people that have been assimilated?

Moreover.....what is it about Democracy that you understand?

Sultan
05-28-2012, 06:27 AM
About the Israelis.

Well all I can say is this and compare.

What if 60 years ago the UN decided to take Scotland and place Nubians in it and call it by a different name. Then move all the Scottish people out to refugee camps.
The Nubians called it Sandland.
They take the land and the houses and the animals. The Scottish who fought back were killed. Those Scottish are then called terrorists. The Egyptians then decided to arm the Nubians to wipe out the rest of the stubborn Scottish.

60 years and the Scottish are still fighting to be returned to their hills and houses and homeland. Their place of birth.

England, Ireland and Wales and the Scottish Islands and the Sweden and Norway the neighbours of Scotland where all the refugees are living in camps wants the Nubians to go. Thats because the Nubians love to cause friction and war and love to expand and are spreading into parts of England and Wales. They are then armed by Egypt with nuclear weapons to threaten the English and all the other neighbours.

Tell me how you as a Scottish person would feel and tell me how all the once neighbours of you who lived in peace till the Nubians took over would feel. All those celtic type people who now have a completely different race and culture embedded in the region and is threatening them every day?

Thats how Palestinians and Arabs feel.

Sultan
05-28-2012, 06:45 AM
Actually I havent been there. How many real Egyptians left? Meaning non-Arab, and still believe in the Egyptian Gods or whatever. What can you tell me about your people that have been assimilated?

Moreover.....what is it about Democracy that you understand?

Well that is where I have the advantage over you because I have travelled a lot to Europe and USA and Asia and see different cultures to my own.

All Egyptians are real Egyptians. Egyptians are very patriotic. Probably way more than Europeans.
Our people mixed with all cultures. European, Asian, Arab, African. Our country is a gateway and position to all cultures.

Egyptians language now is Arabic BUT we have great influence of English and French language and many German and Russian and Italian. Even the poorest villagers in Luxor speak 3 or more languages to communicate with foreigners.

No Egyptian believes in Pharaonic gods. I can't think of anyone who would today. They are our ancestors and that is our ancient history. We believe in one God here. Both Coptic Christians and Muslims.

Democracy to me is having the right to choose and for that choice to be respected even if it is not my choice.
For me to be able to have a voice and for it to be heard and taken notice of.
For me to be able to choose who rules my country by a vote.
For me to have an opinion that I can speak freely without being arrested and tortured.


All things Egyptians have been denied under rulers till now.

Democracy however is not perfect because strong threatening powers hold ultimate power to overwhelm the weak and helpless. Being in the majority does not automatically make you right or just or moral.

Western democracy is like that.
You are strong and you attack the weak in the false name of democracy. You threaten the weaker as you do in Palestine etc.
The creation of Israel was not moral by any means of the word BUT you the strong support it because it suits your foreign policy and agenda.

Ideally the world would be moral and then we would have real democracy.

MMC
05-28-2012, 07:07 AM
No Democracy is like that. Not Western Democracy. Hence Mob Rules!

I to have been overseas.....just not in Egypt. I know the Egyptians were assimilated. Hence the giving up their Gods and religion. I agree the Egyptians should be choosing who their leaders are and governing Egypt. Problem is the Egyptians wanted in on the game and the Egyptians brought all of what they are facing down upon themselves.

Now they need others money in order to get anything done. Not to self sufficient is Egypt nor have they been for a long long time.

moon
05-28-2012, 11:31 AM
Western democracy is broken. *Candidates are purchased and millionaires/billionaires have turned the seats of Western democracy into their personal playpens. * There is nothing to export.

Sultan
05-28-2012, 12:59 PM
No Democracy is like that. Not Western Democracy. Hence Mob Rules!

I to have been overseas.....just not in Egypt. I know the Egyptians were assimilated. Hence the giving up their Gods and religion. I agree the Egyptians should be choosing who their leaders are and governing Egypt. Problem is the Egyptians wanted in on the game and the Egyptians brought all of what they are facing down upon themselves.

Now they need others money in order to get anything done. Not to self sufficient is Egypt nor have they been for a long long time.

what do you mean in on the game?

Egypt is rich. Our problem was the ruler and his family and friends have stolen and wasted our wealth.

BUT we can easily pick ourselves back up if left in peace to do it and without outside meddling like before.

Our workforce is young and large and willing. There are many ways to survive and thrive if under the right conditions.

As Moon says Western democracy is not a model to copy. It is broken and not real. Maybe we will find another better model inshallah.

moon
05-28-2012, 01:05 PM
Yes, Egypt should allow the Mos.Bros and the military to neutralize each other and aim for something far more progressive at the next national elections. *A few years preparation and deliberation will see Egypt's political system flower,* inshallah. *The neozionists will, of course, attempt to prevent this. *Therein lies the problem.*

MMC
05-28-2012, 02:52 PM
what do you mean in on the game?

Egypt is rich. Our problem was the ruler and his family and friends have stolen and wasted our wealth.

BUT we can easily pick ourselves back up if left in peace to do it and without outside meddling like before.

Our workforce is young and large and willing. There are many ways to survive and thrive if under the right conditions.

As Moon says Western democracy is not a model to copy. It is broken and not real. Maybe we will find another better model inshallah.


Egypt is rich in what? Not money, not resources, so just what are they rich in. Definately not military might.

I don't think Moon can be called on as an Expert in Democracy.

As to playing the game.....they wanted to step up in the World of the Big Boyz. Somewhere they don't belong. Wanted to get in on that Global Economy Bullshit. What other relevance do they have other than Keeping the Suez Canal open?

MMC
05-28-2012, 02:53 PM
Yes, Egypt should allow the Mos.Bros and the military to neutralize each other and aim for something far more progressive at the next national elections. *A few years preparation and deliberation will see Egypt's political system flower,* inshallah. *The neozionists will, of course, attempt to prevent this. *Therein lies the problem.*


Lets see them Prove it on their own.....without any money from the The US or the IMF.

moon
05-28-2012, 03:36 PM
I don't think Moon can be called on as an Expert in Democracy.

*

Well, I'm supporting the move towards eDemocracy because ' representative ' democracy is finished as a fair and useful system. * You might call me an*anarchist*for desiring the collapse of representative democracy but I'm actually supporting a*higher form of democracy than that.*

moon
05-28-2012, 03:38 PM
Lets see them Prove it on their own.....without any money from the The US or the IMF.

Indeed. *I'm fairly sure that the Mos. Bros. will reject any US handouts - *but why shouldn't they partake of any IMF advantages ? * There are far fewer strings attached to those.

MMC
05-28-2012, 04:08 PM
Indeed. *I'm fairly sure that the Mos. Bros. will reject any US handouts - *but why shouldn't they partake of any IMF advantages ? * There are far fewer strings attached to those.


Really? Then why are they (the MB) accepting them (US HandOuts) for Syria? :shocked: :evil:


Why can't Egypt stand on it's own two feet without anyone else's money. Since they are allegedly rich. :rollseyes:

Trinnity
05-28-2012, 06:15 PM
Moon, women in SA are not allowed to drive or go anywhere without an escort. I understand that many are displeased with this. It's hard to understand not letting a woman drive.

RollingWave
05-28-2012, 10:06 PM
You forgot the Saud, Bahrain, Yemen, Oman, Kuwait, and The United Arab Emirates. Yeah Ron Paul was the only one to say such. Do you think that because of the same set of politicians that have been around for the last 25 to 30 years that this could be part of the problem with that Military Economic Aid. Maybe the US being on the brink of financial collapse and the people waking up to this fact will change that Foreign Policy.

Lets not forget the NGO's and NFP's and all that money too. Do you think Egypt can stand on it's own without US aid? Do you think they can build up their own infrastructure? Now here is the tricky part.....do you think that whoever is in power in Egypt can govern their own people?


well I'm using the "over 1 billion" as a measurement. those other places don't get that much money in those terms, though that's partly due to size.

of course, I SHOULD note the other side of the calculation, the cost of ending up at war is almost certainly going to be higher, for example even the most insanely optimistic calculation of the DIRECT cost fo the Iraq war is about 100 billion (and that's said by Dick Cheny, which should give you an idea of how optimistic that is, most more liberal calcuation of the cost is about 10-20 timse that figure.), while in 2010 the aid given to them was around 2 billion. a war on the Suez canal, even not calculating the cost post - invasion problems, will probably come pretty cost to the Iraq war, that is something you should think about as well. not to meantion that the disruption of trade through the Suez would be pretty catastrophic on the world economy. because let's face the obvious, if the US have to invade to hold the Suez cannal.. there is no way in hell they are not going to occupy the area for a long time afterwards.

So if cost, especially LONG term cost on the government and the country as a whole is really what your looking at, then there is a legitimate reason to argue for aid, the question of course is how to use it effectively.


I use a historical reference that the Song dynasty of China had a pretty consistent policy of giving away money to their northern neighbors to buy them off so to speak, it was for obvious nationalistic reasons blasted for the last thousand years, however the Song met it's destruction nearly the moment it reversed those policies. and recent year studies suggest that even 1 semi serious war during that span already outweighted the cost of all the gifts they gave over the centuries put together.


Actually I havent been there. How many real Egyptians left? Meaning non-Arab, and still believe in the Egyptian Gods or whatever. What can you tell me about your people that have been assimilated?

Moreover.....what is it about Democracy that you understand?

Ehh, the ancient egyptian religion was essentially extinct already before Islam even arrived, Christianity had a much larger role in their extinction than Islam (though the other major issue is that the the religion lost it's base after the end of the Pharohs anyway, though in polythesis Rome it still managed ok especially the Isis sect), if there's one religion that really should complain about Islam it would be the old Persian zoroastrian religion, though I should point out that is actually still alive, where as ancient egyptian religion is not. the pre-modern concept of nation state should not be taken as the same as it is today.

MMC
05-28-2012, 10:26 PM
well I'm using the "over 1 billion" as a measurement. those other places don't get that much money in those terms, though that's partly due to size.

of course, I SHOULD note the other side of the calculation, the cost of ending up at war is almost certainly going to be higher, for example even the most insanely optimistic calculation of the DIRECT cost fo the Iraq war is about 100 billion (and that's said by Dick Cheny, which should give you an idea of how optimistic that is, most more liberal calcuation of the cost is about 10-20 timse that figure.), while in 2010 the aid given to them was around 2 billion. a war on the Suez canal, even not calculating the cost post - invasion problems, will probably come pretty cost to the Iraq war, that is something you should think about as well. not to meantion that the disruption of trade through the Suez would be pretty catastrophic on the world economy. because let's face the obvious, if the US have to invade to hold the Suez cannal.. there is no way in hell they are not going to occupy the area for a long time afterwards.

I use a historical reference that the Song dynasty of China had a pretty consistent policy of giving away money to their northern neighbors to buy them off so to speak, it was for obvious nationalistic reasons blasted for the last thousand years, however the Song met it's destruction nearly the moment it reversed those policies. and recent year studies suggest that even 1 semi serious war during that span already outweighted the cost of all the gifts they gave over the centuries put together.



Ehh, the ancient egyptian religion was essentially extinct already before Islam even arrived, Christianity had a much larger role in their extinction than Islam, if there's one religion that really should complain about Islam it would be the old Persian zoroastrian religion, though I should point out that is actually still alive, where as ancient egyptian religion is not. the pre-modern concept of nation state should not be taken as the same as it is today.

Yes I would agree with you about the Persians and Zoroastor.....I often think about what Persia would actually be like with Real Persians running it. I would have to agree with you on Egypt with the Christians.

Yes the Suez Canal.....which the flipside of that coin would be to force the Egyptians to put the World into that postion. Seems taking buisness and trade away from them, not giving them assistance, nor politicking with them. Pretty much leaves them strapped, now how does their military might look at holding anything at all. For War purposes. How's that cost looking now?

Here is a question.....What does Egypt give to the rest of the planet, that the planet needs?

RollingWave
05-28-2012, 10:44 PM
Yes I would agree with you about the Persians and Zoroastor.....I often think about what Persia would actually be like with Real Persians running it. I would have to agree with you on Egypt with the Christians.

Yes the Suez Canal.....which the flipside of that coin would be to force the Egyptians to put the World into that postion. Seems taking buisness and trade away from them, not giving them assistance, nor politicking with them. Pretty much leaves them strapped, now how does their military might look at holding anything at all. For War purposes. How's that cost looking now?

Here is a question.....What does Egypt give to the rest of the planet, that the planet needs?

Well, Persian identity remained fairly strong even after Islam, unlike Egypt and Iraq the native langauge was never assmiilated, and if anything the flip happened as post Umayyad caliph islamic world was often ran by the Persian or Turks, the Arab's control over the Islamic world was actually quite weak politically and militarialy speaking after the early Abbasid period.

As for what egypt give to the world, this isn't a zero sum game, everyone give everyone else busniess is the sustainability of the current world order, yes Egyptians would be screwing themself if they invite war over the Suez, but that's their problem, the problem from the American prespective is not rather the Egyptians self destruct, it's the price the US would have to pay in such an event , and I think it is very likely to far outweigh whatever aid the US is paying to Egypt right now.

moon
05-29-2012, 06:03 AM
Really? Then why are they (the MB) accepting them (US HandOuts) for Syria? :shocked: :evil:


Why can't Egypt stand on it's own two feet without anyone else's money. Since they are allegedly rich. :rollseyes:

Perhaps member ' Sultan ' can answer your queries. *He's actually an Egyptian living in Egypt. *

moon
05-29-2012, 06:05 AM
Moon, women in SA are not allowed to drive or go anywhere without an escort. I understand that many are displeased with this. It's hard to understand not letting a woman drive.

Are you criticizing conditions in Saudi Arabia, America's foremost regional ally ? * You'll be on a CIA list by teatime.

wingrider
05-29-2012, 06:31 AM
use to be ally under musharriff now not so much..

Trinnity
05-29-2012, 07:16 AM
Are you criticizing conditions in Saudi Arabia, America's foremost regional ally ? I guess I am.

Trinnity
05-29-2012, 07:19 AM
use to be ally under musharriff now not so much..I don't understand. Pervez Musharraf was president of Pakistan. SA has a ruling family. We're still talking about the Saudi's, right?

wingrider
05-29-2012, 08:04 AM
I am talking about the president of Egypt that was run out of office a few months ago, I have the name mixed up but that is who I mean. now the Muslim brotherhood is basically taking over.. who knows where that will lead .. as for egypt itself no problem they can have whatever government they wish but I doubt seriously they will be an ally to the USA, all we are is a money sourse for them and nothing else

wingrider
05-29-2012, 08:04 AM
yeah the name is Mubarach.( sp). sorry

Trinnity
05-29-2012, 08:08 AM
Oh yeah, Mubarak. I see; thanks.
Yeah, we should cut of the foreign aid, with the exception of Israel, imo (sorry moon and Sultan). Israel being the only democracy over there, and is daily peril - needs our help.
But giving all these countries FA and thinking we have leverage - crazy, and a waste of our hard earned money. Oh, and we're broke anyway.

Trinnity
05-29-2012, 08:41 AM
Can you explain how we treat women less than men. Explain how I treat my wife in my home please, so I understand how to reply to your question.I only know what I perceive from what I've seen. Burkas, not being allowed to drive, having to walk behind the man. Women killed in "honor killings". Beheadings. I know not all of the ME is like that, but it is disturbing. I don't get the impression the women feel protected as is the claim. They want to drive in SA, for example and are not allowed.
These things don't seem fair or civil to me.

I don't really want to make this personal about your wife, and I don't accuse you of mistreating her or anyone.

Sultan
05-29-2012, 09:02 AM
Egypt is rich in what? Not money, not resources, so just what are they rich in. Definately not military might.

I don't think Moon can be called on as an Expert in Democracy.

As to playing the game.....they wanted to step up in the World of the Big Boyz. Somewhere they don't belong. Wanted to get in on that Global Economy Bullshit. What other relevance do they have other than Keeping the Suez Canal open?

This is a really funny post.

I have not the time to respond because it would take too long but nice try anyway :wink:

Sultan
05-29-2012, 09:03 AM
Lets see them Prove it on their own.....without any money from the The US or the IMF.

you might want to watch some playback of last weeks Parliament to see what was discussed about IMF loan :wink:

Sultan
05-29-2012, 09:05 AM
Indeed. *I'm fairly sure that the Mos. Bros. will reject any US handouts - *but why shouldn't they partake of any IMF advantages ? * There are far fewer strings attached to those.

Parliament was discussing that this week

big discussions on Sharia compliant or not :wink:

Sultan
05-29-2012, 09:07 AM
Really? Then why are they (the MB) accepting them (US HandOuts) for Syria? :shocked: :evil:


Why can't Egypt stand on it's own two feet without anyone else's money. Since they are allegedly rich. :rollseyes:

You need to study the MB I think. It seems you think they are alike in different countries ? :huh:

Sultan
05-29-2012, 09:13 AM
Moon, women in SA are not allowed to drive or go anywhere without an escort. I understand that many are displeased with this. It's hard to understand not letting a woman drive.

Thats true but do not judge us all by Saudi standards please.

Egyptian women could vote before Canadian Australian and Swiss women could. Women have been driving in Egypts since cars arrived here.
Egypt had queens who ruled the country thousands of years ago not only kings and women ruled Egypt and we are still waiting for day when a woman to rule USA :wink:

Sultan
05-29-2012, 09:18 AM
I am talking about the president of Egypt that was run out of office a few months ago, I have the name mixed up but that is who I mean. now the Muslim brotherhood is basically taking over.. who knows where that will lead .. as for egypt itself no problem they can have whatever government they wish but I doubt seriously they will be an ally to the USA, all we are is a money sourse for them and nothing else

but did you not see your US government rush over and say that they were happy to work with MB?

US was the main backer of MB in the early days when President Hosni 'Musharaff' :grin: fell

Sultan
05-29-2012, 09:24 AM
yeah the name is Mubarach.( sp). sorry

no Musharaff was closer :grin:

Trinnity
05-29-2012, 09:39 AM
Well, I'm supporting the move towards eDemocracy because ' representative ' democracy is finished as a fair and useful system. * You might call me an*anarchist*for desiring the collapse of representative democracy but I'm actually supporting a*higher form of democracy than that.*That's interesting. What's "eDemocracy"?

MMC
05-29-2012, 09:58 AM
This is a really funny post.

I have not the time to respond because it would take too long but nice try anyway :wink:

Not really.....all one need do is look at Egypts top exports. Like I stated what are they rich in? Just what does the planet need that the Egyptians can proivde? So far it seems they do a lot of smack-talking. Not to mention they don 't do that real well either.

moon
05-29-2012, 10:05 AM
I guess I am.

Good, they're very deserving of it. * All dynastic systems are bad. *Nepotism itself stinks and it would be extremely difficult to elevate the natural rights of women under the House of Saud as long as the US of AIPAC supports it . *It's the same in Bahrain. *The Fifth Fleet is more important there than human rights and democratic protest. *SYRIA- *on the other hand- is a target of the Israel Lobby so can expect Billary to produce her most obnoxious grimace for the regime there- *even though Syria has just held a referendum leading to democratic elections.*

Mister D
05-29-2012, 10:06 AM
Good, they're very deserving of it. * All dynastic systems are bad. *Nepotism itself stinks and it would be extremely difficult to elevate the natural rights of women under the House of Saud as long as the US of AIPAC supports it . *It's the same in Bahrain. *The Fifth Fleet is more important there than human rights and democratic protest. *SYRIA- *on the other hand- is a target of the Israel Lobby so can expect Billary to produce her most obnoxious grimace for the regime there- *even though Syria has just held a referendum leading to democratic elections.*

What is the US of AIPAC? Are you suggesting that the Jews control the US?

moon
05-29-2012, 10:09 AM
That's interesting. What's "eDemocracy"?

It's fluid democracy, based upon modern communications technologies. *People vote for ideas and policies, not ' representatives '. *People take back their own governance from the crooked billionaires who have let them down. *Frequent voting is key- *no more of this ' four or five year term' system. *There wouldn't be anybody to serve such a term anyway.*

Sultan
05-29-2012, 10:11 AM
I only know what I perceive from what I've seen. Burkas, not being allowed to drive, having to walk behind the man. Women killed in "honor killings". Beheadings. I know not all of the ME is like that, but it is disturbing. I don't get the impression the women feel protected as is the claim. They want to drive in SA, for example and are not allowed.
These things don't seem fair or civil to me.

I don't really want to make this personal about your wife, and I don't accuse you of mistreating her or anyone.

Where did you see this in Egypt?

You are talking about Saudi not Egypt and we are different countries separated by the Red Sea.

Shall I describe my wife to you so you get an idea of the reality.

Before we married she was a senior person in medical sector. She ran 6 operating theatres. She is well travelled. She does not wear a veil. She wears normal clothing like you would. Our climate is very hot and we both cover in the sunshine but she has no problem wearing trousers to just below the knee and no problem wearing blouses to elbows BUT because our climate is very hot and the sun is very damaging to womens skin they tend not to expose too much and that is why Arab and Egyptian women on the whole have beautiful skin and do not suffer so many wrinkles. Our women are naturally by their genes very beautiful . We are both modest dressers but modern. She is often in baseball caps to shield her head from sun when we are out at beach or whatever or sometimes we both wear Palestinian kefayas wrapped Omani style if the heat is really intense and we are in desert areas to keep cool.

She has driven since young and owns her own car. Nothing we have is rented or on loan or mortgaged.

Being female and being Muslim she is entitled to inheritance. She owned before we married her own house and has her own bank account. This is not counted as part of our income as in Islam a woman money is her own to do as she pleases.

We live in our home paid for by me and we own another holiday home in Sinai.

When we married she decided not to continue working and we had our children. She decided when they were grown not to return to work as most women prefer not to work here but if she wanted to tomorrow I would have no problem with that. She volunteers at an NGO for free and also for free she helps a neighbour friend of mine with some International business dealing but that is when she feels like it and not full or even part time. She prefers to do these free things because in our religion we call this a kind of charity. To give back, and that is one way in which she herself does that.

So what else can I say?

In our home she is the boss. I mean that she decides everything about the home. If she wants something I get it for her. If she wants a repair done or a room decorated I get it done for her. We do not have a maid and she prefers not to have them but her friends all do but we have gardener and security persons we offer work to and look after. We also both prefer to drive so have no driver but our friends and neighbours do but we prefer not to.
In our culture men do the lifting and carrying so it would not be unusual at all for her to want for instance some rice or bread or anything really and she just has to ask and I will if I am home go and buy it. If we are out in our culture women do not carry shopping so I do it and load the car but she does like to push the trolley cart around the hypermarket but at cashier I unload and carry from there and pay. This is normal for us. Also women dont pay for things. The men pay for everything. Really the only time my wife would pay for something would be if I was not at home and she needed something quickly and had to call the delivery boys at the souk. Here in Egypt you can have just about anything delivered to your door 24/7 from a nail to a wedding cake to a packet of aspirin.
So she rules the house. She makes the decisions about the house and home and children. We both make decisions on most other things together. We both do washing up and cook and it would not be unusual for me to hang out washing in our garden and she bring it in.

I was brought up to respect women. My mother taught me that and I have a sister and we are a very close family. My mother taught me to love my wife and to always try to make her happy and I do my best and we are a very happy family.
My religion teaches me that we must respect and love our women. Our mothers are the key to heaven and we must treat them with love and respect. Women are very powerful people in the home. You may not realise that. It is linked into culture and Islam. I am talking about Egyptian here not all bedouin and Arabs.
If my wife is happy then I am happy and I tell her I love her probably 20 times each day and she to me. When I see her smile I smile and I work hard to always see her smile and if she is sad then I am sad and I try to make her happy as that is the command from Allah. If I do that I please Allah.

I think I am quite normal but I realise I am very different to Western man and my wife is very different to Western women. We dont want to be the same. Women are very feminine here and love to be feminine and also dress like women, and not act like men. They like their own company also at times to talk womens things but since we are brought up with women as children and spend a lot of time with sisters and aunts and because we do not date like you we become very atuned to womens needs and emotions in the home. We learn about relationships and love from our home and parents not outside in the streets and casual relationships. Because I saw how my father treated my mother and sister I learned how to treat them and my wife and daughter.

I have never hit my wife. To do such a thing is first against my nature but also against my religion. We are normally a non violent people, non aggressive. If there is friction outside we mediate rather than blow his head of with a gun.

We respect elders and elder brothers take rank. Children respect elders and they would never use bad or even a bit disrespectful to an elder by even a few years. Children on the whole are quiet and respectful to elders and themselves.

Enough now.

To know how we really are rather than what your media tells you would have to come and spend time with us and see for yourself.

We do have a big problem with Saudi influence now but that is a global problem and not ours alone.

:wink:

Trinnity
05-29-2012, 10:14 AM
I meant from what I've seen in the ME in general. Sorry. That's why I find your POV so interesting; you actually live there.

There's a lot we don't know because we're so greatly separated by distance and culture. It's hard to know what is the truth and what is cleverly crafted lies. We know about Al Taquia and kitman. So, that makes it hard to be sure of the truth in so many ways.


Sounds like you have a great wife and home. I'm happy for you. I wish I could come and visit. I bet I'd enjoy that, but alas I cannot afford to travel abroad. Please tell your lovely wife I said hello.

I do realize Egypt is among the more modern countries. Iran, to me, seems very oppressive these days. Under the Shah, education and modernization was the way.
The Mullahs there are cruel, murderous, and barbaric and the Iranian people are suffering.

moon
05-29-2012, 10:16 AM
What is the US of AIPAC? Are you suggesting that the Jews control the US?

I've already told you that AIPAC is an acronym for the American ISRAEL Public Affairs Committee. *It isn't the AJPAC.* You must have missed the full reply to a different member at no.20;
http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/3468-West-Bank-s-economy-at-crossroads/page2
*It will serve you too.* *Try to focus on the fact that 25% of Israeli citizens are not jewish.*

Mister D
05-29-2012, 10:17 AM
http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/vaw/ngocontribute/Egyptian Center for Women_s Rights.pdf

What's a virginity test, Sultan? Seems rather common in your part of the world. I see you finall;y got around to banning female genital mutilation in 2007. Although some Egyptians are not happy with that.

Mister D
05-29-2012, 10:18 AM
I've already told you that AIPAC is an acronym for the American ISRAEL Public Affairs Committee. *It isn't the AJPAC.* You must have missed the full reply to a different member at no.20;
http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/3468-West-Bank-s-economy-at-crossroads/page2
It will serve you too.*

Again, what is the US of AIPAC? Are you suggesting that the Jews control the US? Why so cowardly?

Sultan
05-29-2012, 10:18 AM
Not really.....all one need do is look at Egypts top exports. Like I stated what are they rich in? Just what does the planet need that the Egyptians can proivde? So far it seems they do a lot of smack-talking. Not to mention they don 't do that real well either.

I feel you are a very aggressive poster already and I just joined here

I am actually thinking about whether or not to answer your posts because I get the feeling that no matter what I say you will argue and I am not going to spend time arguing.

If you want me to answer you then convince me you really want to know and first you do some homework and tell me what you know about Egypt and our exports and our country and our history and economy and past few decades government policies.

Mister D
05-29-2012, 10:20 AM
I meant from what I've seen in the ME in general. Sorry.

There is quite a bit available online about the treatment of females in Egypt and the rest of the Musl;im world. It's pretty sickening.

moon
05-29-2012, 10:20 AM
http://www.un.org/womenwatch/daw/vaw/ngocontribute/Egyptian Center for Women_s Rights.pdf

What's a virginity test, Sultan? Seems rather common in your part of the world. I see you finall;y got around to banning female genital mutilation in 2007. Although some Egyptians are not happy with that.

*Male genital mutilation is still common all across North America- despite condemnation by the medical profession. *When's the ban due, do you think ?

Sultan
05-29-2012, 10:24 AM
I meant from what I've seen in the ME in general. Sorry.

But the ME is very diverse and you can't see us all the same especially an African Egypt compared to a Gulf Arab bedouin tribal man.
Egypt was the worlds first civilization. We were healing and doing astronomy and medicine and building great monuments when Europe was still in the mud houses and uncivilized. :cool2:

Mister D
05-29-2012, 10:24 AM
*Male genital mutilation is still common all across North America- despite condemnation by the medical profession. *When's the ban due, do you think ?

Nice try! :laugh: There are a host of medical and health related issues involved with female genital multilation which is why it causes so much outrage. It's also done uh...less than charming reasons. Males in the US don't get circumcised to decrease their libido. :shocked:

Sultan
05-29-2012, 10:26 AM
There is quite a bit available online about the treatment of females in Egypt and the rest of the Musl;im world. It's pretty sickening.

but what I want to hear is your own experience of Egypt

like I can tell you mine of USA and Europe

can you do the same?

Mister D
05-29-2012, 10:28 AM
but what I want to hear is your own experience of Egypt

like I can tell you mine of USA and Europe

can you do the same?

If you want to make the argument that females are treated the same way in my part of the world go right ahead. :laugh:

MMC
05-29-2012, 10:29 AM
I feel you are a very aggressive poster already and I just joined here

I am actually thinking about whether or not to answer your posts because I get the feeling that no matter what I say you will argue and I am not going to spend time arguing.

If you want me to answer you then convince me you really want to know and first you do some homework and tell me what you know about Egypt and our exports and our country and our history and economy and past few decades government policies.

While I am sure you may FEEL that I am aggressive poster and then get that FEELING that no matter what you say, I will argue. Such would be just your own feelings and emotions to deflect your own concepts and those absolute truths about Egypt.

But hey thats cool. I can drop the Subject.

Lets Hope I don't get the same feeling about you and anything you want to point out about Americans and the US. :wink:

Mister D
05-29-2012, 10:32 AM
But the ME is very diverse and you can't see us all the same especially an African Egypt compared to a Gulf Arab bedouin tribal man.
Egypt was the worlds first civilization. We were healing and doing astronomy and medicine and building great monuments when Europe was still in the mud houses and uncivilized. :cool2:

What happened? Islam? :laugh:

moon
05-29-2012, 10:37 AM
Nice try!

I:laugh: There are a host of medical and health related issues involved with female genital multilation which is why it causes so much outrage. It's also done uh...less than charming reasons. Males in the US don't get circumcised to decrease their libido. :shocked:

Much more than a ' nice try ', chum *. * The practice of male genital mutilation is abhorrent to many people and damned by the medical professions of Western countries. *Yet confused and browbeaten parents still inflict it upon their helpless children. * *

Sultan
05-29-2012, 10:38 AM
I meant from what I've seen in the ME in general. Sorry. That's why I find your POV so interesting; you actually live there.

There's a lot we don't know because we're so greatly separated by distance and culture. It's hard to know what is the truth and what is cleverly crafted lies. We know about Al Taquia and kitman. So, that makes it hard to be sure of the truth in so many ways.


Sounds like you have a great wife and home. I'm happy for you. I wish I could come and visit. I bet I'd enjoy that, but alas I cannot afford to travel abroad. Please tell your lovely wife I said hello.

It's a very big problem not being able to travel and having to rely on second hand information. Many Americans I know were very surprised to see that we are not like they say we are. In fact many stayed and converted to Islam and live here now and married Egyptians. :cool2:

Egyptians have suffered a lot for many decades and still we have to smile and carry on as peacefully as we can.

I told my wife what you said and she said to tell you Shukran and salam from a hot Cairo ( Thank you and hello )

moon
05-29-2012, 10:38 AM
Again, what is the US of AIPAC? Are you suggesting that the Jews control the US? Why so cowardly?

Check out post 58. *I shouldn't have to prompt you to read the content of your own forum.*

MMC
05-29-2012, 10:40 AM
What happened? Islam? :laugh:

Like he said they were.....but as to being the First. Somehow.....in all the known World History. We now have an Egyptian that says they came before the Sumerians. That they were the first civilization. :rollseyes: Wonder how those facts got confused? :undecided:

Sultan
05-29-2012, 10:40 AM
Nice try! :laugh: There are a host of medical and health related issues involved with female genital multilation which is why it causes so much outrage. It's also done uh...less than charming reasons. Males in the US don't get circumcised to decrease their libido. :shocked:

FGM is tribal African practice. Ethiopian Jews do it also. It has nothing to do with Islam at all. Why do you not know that?

Trinnity
05-29-2012, 10:47 AM
Lets Hope I don't get the same feeling about you and anything you want to point out about Americans and the US. :wink:Heh heh, you've got Awryly for that. ~rofl~

Mister D
05-29-2012, 10:50 AM
FGM is tribal African practice. Ethiopian Jews do it also. It has nothing to do with Islam at all. Why do you not know that?

It's practiced in Egypt and I said nothing about Islam.

Trinnity
05-29-2012, 10:50 AM
I told my wife what you said and she said to tell you Shukran and salam from a hot Cairo ( Thank you and hello )Thanks!

Sultan
05-31-2012, 05:15 AM
Run Off

All forces it seems are agreed that Shafik should not rule. That is except the Christians and the Ex regime.

Return of this figure will ignite a real bloodbath.

The revolution was not brought about to have another military leader installed as the old regime put back in place.

Today we are seeing the opposition to Mubarak regime combine forces to deliver a charter to Morsi and Shafik to outline their plan but mainly aimed at Morsi because we realise that Shafik will hunt down every revolutionary one by one and eliminate them as they did before under Mubarak.

The Charter outlines certain demands and principles to be agreed upon before the 55% who did not vote will vote for the candidate plus the voters who voted non Morsi Non Shafik.

The Charter is to be decided I think tomorrow and given to Morsi.

I am pretty sure that Morsi will sign it.

That will roughly state these points.

VP and PM will not be from MB
PM and VP names must be announced before run off vote
Women and Coptic C's to be well represented in cabinet
MB's to have small ? 15% seats on Constitution writing committee with rest to all walks including about 25%? constitutional experts
Al Azhar will be the ONLY OFFICIAL reference on Islamic matter and not the Wahabi current we have seen spreading.
Equal rights in church and mosque construction
Affirmation and application of Declaration of Human Rights and denonounce descrimination ie apostasy
Reaffirms article two of the 1971 constitution as it stands, stipulating that Islam is the religion of the state, Arabic is the official language and that the "principles of the Islamic Shari'a are the main source of legislation,"
Wahabis and Al Noor Party want that changed to "principles of the Islamic Shari'a are the only source of legislation,"

Sultan
05-31-2012, 05:20 AM
Today media is reporting that Minya Sohag and Assyut the 3 huge upper Egypt Coptic Christian communities are flooded with pro Shafik flyers. The churches are denying involvement.

For sure this is going to cause real problems with Christians supporting return of Mubarak regime.:shocked: