Keystone's 40,000 estimated jobs

[texan]

Democrats would have you believe that this project nets out 40 jobs and that my friends shows how far they will go to defend the indefensible.........

Some jobs are 2 year jobs they say, but if you are out of work would you like to have one now in the hopes that things start to boom in a couple years and you catch on somewhere else? Or maybe this job leads to another? Or would you rather follow the liberals into bankruptcy?

I can also assure you that a pipeline will leave more than 40 jobs in its dust. This is nothing but a anti-american talking point. You are seeing what a democrat job market and wages really look like the past several years. Why don;t we double down on Obamacare and kill some more jobs or do another Dodd Frank Bill!

[Common]

temporary jobs after a pipeline is built it just takes occaisonal maintenance or repair that is usually subcontracted
That pipeline has no benefit to working americans its all about the rich. It wont lower oil prices or gas a cent

[GrassrootsConservative]

The thing is, even those temporary jobs will provide experience, something educated idiots on the left badly need. Those college degrees in Liberal Arts and Women's Studies will get a person nowhere if they don't have a clue how to put in actual work.

[Bo-4]

Democrats would have you believe that this project nets out 40 jobs and that my friends shows how far they will go to defend the indefensible.........

Some jobs are 2 year jobs they say, but if you are out of work would you like to have one now in the hopes that things start to boom in a couple years and you catch on somewhere else? Or maybe this job leads to another? Or would you rather follow the liberals into bankruptcy?

I can also assure you that a pipeline will leave more than 40 jobs in its dust. This is nothing but a anti-american talking point. You are seeing what a democrat job market and wages really look like the past several years. Why don;t we double down on Obamacare and kill some more jobs or do another Dodd Frank Bill!

Keystone creates around TWO THOUSAND, not 40,000 temporary jobs, but keep it locked on Fox! ;-)

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/nov/11/anna-kooiman/fox-news-host-keystone-pipeline-would-create-tens-/

Oh, and 35 of them are permanent.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/feb/10/van-jones/cnns-van-jones-says-keystone-pipeline-only-creates/

Wanna create a million jobs ongoing? I-N-F-R-A-S-T-R-U-C-T-U-R-E

You're welcome.

[texan]

I am gonna go ahead and call Bullshit:

TransCanada employed 4,844 Americans in Oklahoma and Texas (http://keystone-xl.com/4844-thank-yous/)on construction of the $2.3-billion Gulf Coast Pipeline Project, which is expected to be complete by the end of this year.

Construction and development of the Keystone XL and Gulf Coast Pipeline Projects is anticipated to generate $20 billion in economic impact in the United States, including $99 million in local government revenues and $486 million in state government revenues during construction.

The pipelines will also generate an estimated $5 billion in additional property taxes during their operational life.

- See more at: http://keystone-xl.com/about/jobs-and-economic-benefits/#sthash.qJrCzGde.dpuf

[texan]

BTW the liberals don't seem to care if its temprary construction jobs when they talk about roads. But Oil? Oh we can't support any Oil type jobs.......BS

[texan]

Pretty sure the extra income creates other jobs in those municpalities..................I wish people understood how all economics are trickle down, ALL! This is an example of it and of the liberal lack of understanding or just lying one of the two.

[texan]

Keystone creates around TWO THOUSAND, not 40,000 temporary jobs, but keep it locked on Fox! ;-)

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/nov/11/anna-kooiman/fox-news-host-keystone-pipeline-would-create-tens-/

Oh, and 35 of them are permanent.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/feb/10/van-jones/cnns-van-jones-says-keystone-pipeline-only-creates/

Wanna create a million jobs ongoing? I-N-F-R-A-S-T-R-U-C-T-U-R-E

You're welcome.

Now you're welcome, you have no idea what you are talking about. You only regurgitate talking points giving to you by the same liars that gave them to you on Obamacare. Don;t question them just repeat them and Faux News yada yada yada.................You are brilliant. What you do for a living? Academia?

[PolWatch]

Construction of a pipeline is very expensive. Check on how much just the material to build will cost...quoting the cost doesn't mean it going into the local economy. Construction is usually not done by unskilled, local labor...thank goodness. Pipelines require people who know what they are doing. Welders have to be x-ray qualified to work on oil pipelines. There is a construction skill called "pipeliners" that travel from job to job. Ever notice the expensive trucks (usually dualies) towing RV's. Pipeliners usually have their own welding machines in the back of their trucks. Not something the company building a pipeline expects to hire from the local employment office. Hate to add fuel to the fire, but a good many of them are union too. I'm sure there will be a few jobs for those willing to do the grunt work, but it doesn't last long nor pay very well.

[texan]

http://mikerussoexpose.com/?p=1170

There are numerous reports on the positive affects of this project. For the in the tank liberal repeaters here to latch onto the absolute worst case shows how dumb people are and how political. There are numerous credible studies on this issue. IT AINT 35 NET JOBS!

Anyway, again you don't answer 2000 or 100000 you want a job for 2 years or not?

[Bob]

Democrats would have you believe that this project nets out 40 jobs and that my friends shows how far they will go to defend the indefensible.........

Some jobs are 2 year jobs they say, but if you are out of work would you like to have one now in the hopes that things start to boom in a couple years and you catch on somewhere else? Or maybe this job leads to another? Or would you rather follow the liberals into bankruptcy?

I can also assure you that a pipeline will leave more than 40 jobs in its dust. This is nothing but a anti-american talking point. You are seeing what a democrat job market and wages really look like the past several years. Why don;t we double down on Obamacare and kill some more jobs or do another Dodd Frank Bill!

This article has graphs and good detailed explanation and compares Keystone to Alyeska pipeline.

The Alaska pipeline job estimates varied but they had 21,000 peak. Even were Keystone to use less, it would not be much less.


http://www.forbes.com/sites/energysource/2013/05/10/pipe-dreams-how-many-jobs-will-be-created-by-keystone-xl/

[nathanbforrest45]

Construction of a pipeline is very expensive. Check on how much just the material to build will cost...quoting the cost doesn't mean it going into the local economy. Construction is usually not done by unskilled, local labor...thank goodness. Pipelines require people who know what they are doing. Welders have to be x-ray qualified to work on oil pipelines. There is a construction skill called "pipeliners" that travel from job to job. Ever notice the expensive trucks (usually dualies) towing RV's. Pipeliners usually have their own welding machines in the back of their trucks. Not something the company building a pipeline expects to hire from the local employment office. Hate to add fuel to the fire, but a good many of them are union too. I'm sure there will be a few jobs for those willing to do the grunt work, but it doesn't last long nor pay very well.


No, those without jobs should just continue not working because that job may end in a year or so. $20 Billion pumped into the economy is $20 Billion pumped into the economy. If the material is a large portion of the income then those companies supplying the materials will benefit and hire more workers. More trucks will move making deliveries, more goods will be sold to the workers in the field. $20 Billion real dollars is a lot better than $40 Billion pretend dollars.

[Bob]

temporary jobs after a pipeline is built it just takes occaisonal maintenance or repair that is usually subcontracted
That pipeline has no benefit to working americans its all about the rich. It wont lower oil prices or gas a cent

Nope, not true. Why are prices dropping so fast now?

More oil in America.

[Bob]

Keystone creates around TWO THOUSAND, not 40,000 temporary jobs, but keep it locked on Fox! ;-)

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/nov/11/anna-kooiman/fox-news-host-keystone-pipeline-would-create-tens-/

Oh, and 35 of them are permanent.

http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2014/feb/10/van-jones/cnns-van-jones-says-keystone-pipeline-only-creates/

Wanna create a million jobs ongoing? I-N-F-R-A-S-T-R-U-C-T-U-R-E

You're welcome.


http://b-i.forbesimg.com/energysource/files/2013/05/construction.png

[nathanbforrest45]

Warren Buffet owns Berkshire Hathaway, Berkshire Hathaway owns the Union Pacific Railroad The UP hauls a tremendous amount of oil over the rails. The pipeline will diminish some of that traffic . Buffet will only make 2 kazillion dollars this year if that happens. And that folks is why the Keystone Pipeline is being opposed.

[PolWatch]

No, those without jobs should just continue not working because that job may end in a year or so. $20 Billion pumped into the economy is $20 Billion pumped into the economy. If the material is a large portion of the income then those companies supplying the materials will benefit and hire more workers. More trucks will move making deliveries, more goods will be sold to the workers in the field. $20 Billion real dollars is a lot better than $40 Billion pretend dollars.

you obviously did not read my post. Yes, there will be jobs. The chances of them being local jobs are slim. Oil pipeline construction requires highly qualified & skilled people. I can't count the number of people I've heard of who hotfooted it to Alaska for that pipeline job & got sent away because they weren't qualified for anything but unskilled labor. The unskilled jobs will go to the locals (usual construction procedure). They don't pay real well or last very long. The skilled pipeliners will make big $$$ and send it home to wife & kiddies. Been there...done that...even have a bunch tee-shirts.

[Bob]

I once worked up the path to management in construction by building infrastructure.

It might shock you as to how few it takes to build a concrete bridge.

The piledriver crew had 5 men, a foreman and a job superientendent.

The concrete crew was around 3 on a lot of jobs.

The concrete crew on the bridge took maybe 20 men if that. Sure, you had the driver of the concrete trucks but the gist is infrastructure is built by highly specialized crews of not that many men who have machinery to do the job.

When we drove piling for large buildings, those of course had many more workers.

[nathanbforrest45]

you obviously did not read my post. Yes, there will be jobs. The chances of them being local jobs are slim. Oil pipeline construction requires highly qualified & skilled people. I can't count the number of people I've heard of who hotfooted it to Alaska for that pipeline job & got sent away because they weren't qualified for anything but unskilled labor. The unskilled jobs will go to the locals (usual construction procedure). They don't pay real well or last very long. The skilled pipeliners will make big $$$ and send it home to wife & kiddies. Been there...done that...even have a bunch tee-shirts.


It still will mean 20 billion will be pumped into the economy. Maybe not in the "local" area but those working on it will earn more and improve the economy. I don't understand what your point is.

[Bo-4]

Now you're welcome, you have no idea what you are talking about. You only regurgitate talking points giving to you by the same liars that gave them to you on Obamacare. Don;t question them just repeat them and Faux News yada yada yada.................You are brilliant. What you do for a living? Academia?

Facts are facts, and your 40,000 jobs are a MYTH.

Fine with me if you want to keep on the blinders.. but spare the rest of us your nonsense.

Thanks in advance!

[PolWatch]

Texan's posts look like he expects the $$ to go the local community or even area. Ain't gonna happen. Money will go into the 'economy' but the chances of it having a huge impact on the area where it is being built are slim. The skilled workers will be brought in from where ever they live, the material will come from the cheapest supplier. The local area will get $$$ from living expense for the workers and some locals will be hired for unskilled jobs. The builders will only spend what they have to locally. Sadly, the chances are it will cost small communities the pipelines pass more than they will realize in profit. I've spent 10 years traveling with construction jobs and this is reality.

[Bob]

Construction of a pipeline is very expensive. Check on how much just the material to build will cost...quoting the cost doesn't mean it going into the local economy. Construction is usually not done by unskilled, local labor...thank goodness. Pipelines require people who know what they are doing. Welders have to be x-ray qualified to work on oil pipelines. There is a construction skill called "pipeliners" that travel from job to job. Ever notice the expensive trucks (usually dualies) towing RV's. Pipeliners usually have their own welding machines in the back of their trucks. Not something the company building a pipeline expects to hire from the local employment office. Hate to add fuel to the fire, but a good many of them are union too. I'm sure there will be a few jobs for those willing to do the grunt work, but it doesn't last long nor pay very well.

I speak from personal experience in backing her up. XL can employ a large number of people.

I welded pipe at the Chevron Oil refinery at Richmond CA and on the one job, we had 2 welders both of us certified. The pile driver was driving one pipe where I welded on the next section as the other welder welded a different pile. The object was to keep the pile-driver driving piling. The pipes were not to hold oil, but as part of a foundation for a new process facility. We had around 7 guys in that crew I think it was.

It is believable to me that pile driving crews will show up to drive piles into the ground to set the pipeline on. I can't speak much about that part of America but know in CA we drove many piles to hold up pipelines.

You have concrete crews. Iron workers. But they don't simply do it one station at a time, they work over a span of miles at a time.

[Bo-4]

http://b-i.forbesimg.com/energysource/files/2013/05/construction.png

Ok Bob, well at least (unlike texan and his 42k whopper) you gave us a graph -- which shows an average of around 15,000 jobs for three years or so.

I guess tex decided to add up all those temporary jobs year by year times three! LoL :D

[texan]

Oh its President Obama's projections. He hasn't been to good at projections why should we take his word? I think he may have lied to you all before?

How Many Jobs Will the Pipeline Create?

It’s unclear exactly how many jobs the pipeline will create. Some estimates have gone as high as 500,000, which is highly unlikely (http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2011/12/14/143719155/just-how-many-jobs-would-the-keystone-pipeline-create). TransCanada’s own evaluation estimates the pipeline would bring 20,000 new jobs to the US (http://www.transcanada.com/5921.html). (Factors such as direct vs. indirect employment and short-term versus long-term job creation fuel the discrepancies.)

The State Department released areport (http://keystonepipeline-xl.state.gov/documents/organization/205612.pdf) in March 2013 stating that the pipeline could (directly or indirectly) create up to 42,000 jobs, including 3,900 construction jobs. But President Obama refuted that in July 2013 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/27/obama-keystone-xl-jobs_n_3664998.html), claiming “the most realistic estimates are this might create maybe 2,000 jobs during the construction of the pipeline, which might take a year or two, and then after that we’re talking about somewhere between 50 and 100 jobs in an economy of 150 million working people.”

http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/tag/keystone-xl-pipeline/

[texan]

Kind of makes you wrong! You don;t like the numbers take it up with the State Department.

[Common Sense]

Frankly it's un American to not want a pipeline delivering foreign oil into the US heartland!

[PolWatch]

again, I don't care who is spouting numbers. Been there...done that. My only purpose in posting was to try and warn you if you were hoping for a high paying job with a pipeline for a long period of time for anyone local. send 'em yer resume....

[texan]

Guess he won't be arguing with Obama's State Department Report......................he will go with Obama's mouthing off cause his numebsr can be trusted cause he said them.

[Bob]

again, I don't care who is spouting numbers. Been there...done that. My only purpose in posting was to try and warn you if you were hoping for a high paying job with a pipeline for a long period of time for anyone local. send 'em yer resume....

The Alaska pipeline was built in 3.2 years so pipeline work is not permanent. But hell, how long can you collect unemployment?

[Bob]

Frankly it's un American to not want a pipeline delivering foreign oil into the US heartland!

We like lower prices .... sorry it bothers you.

[del]

Frankly it's un American to not want a pipeline delivering foreign oil into the US heartland!

as long as we can take out the aquifer that feeds the world, i'm good with it

it's not like the oil will be shipped directly overseas...

[Common Sense]

We like lower prices .... sorry it bothers you.

LOL...it doesn't bother me Bob. I just see some irony in people saying it's un American...it's a Canadian owned pipeline that sells you Canadian oil.

[Bob]

Ok Bob, well at least (unlike texan and his 42k whopper) you gave us a graph -- which shows an average of around 15,000 jobs for three years or so.

I guess tex decided to add up all those temporary jobs year by year times three! LoL :D

If you take 15,000 off unemployment or welfare, and they get tax paying jobs, were it a thousand jobs, it would still be worth doing. I forget how few worked for Solyndra in my city when it went bankrupt but Obama invested 600 million dollars doing that.

Then this from Wikipedia

On 3 November 2010, Solyndra said it would lay off around 40 employees and not renew contracts for about 150 temporary workers as a result of the consolidation.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra#cite_note-woody1-25)

[Bob]

LOL...it doesn't bother me Bob. I just see some irony in people saying it's un American...it's a Canadian owned pipeline that sells you Canadian oil.

Well, perhaps if you supported Canada.........

[nic34]

We like lower prices .... sorry it bothers you.

Oil prices aren't lower because there is more being piped to the US.

[Bob]

Texan's posts look like he expects the $$ to go the local community or even area. Ain't gonna happen. Money will go into the 'economy' but the chances of it having a huge impact on the area where it is being built are slim. The skilled workers will be brought in from where ever they live, the material will come from the cheapest supplier. The local area will get $$$ from living expense for the workers and some locals will be hired for unskilled jobs. The builders will only spend what they have to locally. Sadly, the chances are it will cost small communities the pipelines pass more than they will realize in profit. I've spent 10 years traveling with construction jobs and this is reality.

That part of Nebraska probably is pasture or crops. Still, the fact it is good for America should count for something. I bet your gasoline prices fell a lot. Guess what, big oil does care. LOL

Even if they don't care, they would keep prices high if they could.

[Common Sense]

Well, perhaps if you supported Canada.........

Oh, Bob....I do support Canada.

Have you heard me say if I am for or against the pipeline?

[texan]

This was to flush out the liberals repeating Obama. His own State Department disagrees with him and common sense tells us 35 JOBS is BS in the end. Hell the tax revenues generated is staggering and willl certaining go back into the economy in jobs and ifrastructure projects. Get a clue.

THE FING END! So knock it off liberals and do some research instead of letting the same person that lied about HC walk you off another plank. AND there is no difference between these shovel ready jobs than the infrastructure jobs you are for except they have the oil word attached and liberals don;t like that.................BTW I am for both build infrastructure and Pipeline, I like to see people working and spending.

[texan]

BTW nothing like shutting the loudmouth with facts.

[Common Sense]

Who is he talking to?

[Cigar]

:rollseyes: Oh Great ... if we're going to create Two (2) Construction Jobs, what not on our own Infrastructure Jobs?

[Cigar]

The thing is, even those temporary jobs will provide experience, something educated idiots on the left badly need. Those college degrees in Liberal Arts and Women's Studies will get a person nowhere if they don't have a clue how to put in actual work.

I've been saying that for 6 years, but you ReTurds have been obstruction Infrastructure Jobs

[texan]

Do them both why is this even being debated? Because Obama hates oil and so therefore we all have to hate oil? The numbers belong to the state Department, notice loud mouth yelling FAUX News is gone now? He just repeats, like Ocare and that FAUX news lie.

Ask the coal unions what they think of this guy ruining their lives.

[Bo-4]

If you take 15,000 off unemployment or welfare, and they get tax paying jobs, were it a thousand jobs, it would still be worth doing. I forget how few worked for Solyndra in my city when it went bankrupt but Obama invested 600 million dollars doing that.

Then this from Wikipedia

On 3 November 2010, Solyndra said it would lay off around 40 employees and not renew contracts for about 150 temporary workers as a result of the consolidation.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra#cite_note-woody1-25)

WoWee Bob, 150 jobs was a monu-MENTAL FAIL for Obama -- ORRR? ;-)

[Bo-4]

BTW nothing like shutting the loudmouth with facts.

Selective "facts" suck, as do you.

[texan]

BTW I bet our fearless leader told his state department that he didn't need their numbers he would use the ones from his ass.

[Cigar]

BTW I bet our fearless leader told his state department that he didn't need their numbers he would use the ones from his ass.

Ain't it Great to be Da-Boss :grin:

http://dailydiscord.com/resources/blazingObama.jpg

[Bo-4]

Do them both why is this even being debated? Because Obama hates oil and so therefore we all have to hate oil? The numbers belong to the state Department, notice loud mouth yelling FAUX News is gone now? He just repeats, like Ocare and that FAUX news lie.

Ask the coal unions what they think of this guy ruining their lives.

Our gas is under 3 bucks, and you lose.

[Bob]

Our gas is under 3 bucks, and you lose.

Are there oil wells in your state?

[nic34]

If you take 15,000 off unemployment or welfare, and they get tax paying jobs, were it a thousand jobs, it would still be worth doing. I forget how few worked for Solyndra in my city when it went bankrupt but Obama invested 600 million dollars doing that.

Then this from Wikipedia

On 3 November 2010, Solyndra said it would lay off around 40 employees and not renew contracts for about 150 temporary workers as a result of the consolidation.[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra#cite_note-woody1-25)

Solyndra report: No smoking guns
http://fortune.com/2012/03/27/solyndra-report-no-smoking-guns/

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=835525#post835525)
If you take 15,000 off unemployment or welfare, and they get tax paying jobs, were it a thousand jobs, it would still be worth doing. I forget how few worked for Solyndra in my city when it went bankrupt but Obama invested 600 million dollars doing that.

Then this from Wikipedia

On 3 November 2010, Solyndra said it would lay off around 40 employees and not renew contracts for about 150 temporary workers as a result of the consolidation.[25 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solyndra#cite_note-woody1-25)


WoWee Bob, 150 jobs was a monu-MENTAL FAIL for Obama -- ORRR? ;-)

Well, since he showed up at my town bragging of what he accomplished, yes it was a direct failure by Obama. Besides that, the workers have stacked up lawsuits plenty.

so few jobs, so much taxpayer funding.

Keystone does not depend on taxpayer funding.

[del]

Who is he talking to?

himself

sometimes he wins when he does that

[Bob]

Solyndra report: No smoking guns


http://fortune.com/2012/03/27/solyndra-report-no-smoking-guns/

Your own report.
But it does not address key allegations, including the White House’s role.

[Bob]

I've been saying that for 6 years, but you ReTurds have been obstruction Infrastructure Jobs

Not that infrastructure is not needed, if you mean repairing highways belonging only to the Feds, but just what highways do you mean? Bear in mind, Though you may assume a freeway is entirely paid for by the Feds, the fact that tax revenue from drivers has fallen to low levels, the cash must come from some people.

If the state pays some of it, not only do you pay to the Feds, you must also pay to the State. Why won't Obama show us all this work to be done?

A lot of states protest the fall of tax revenue due to things like high mileage cars has hurt them a lot. They complain they lack funds for infrastructure.

[Mac-7]

temporary jobs after a pipeline is built it just takes occaisonal maintenance or repair that is usually subcontracted
That pipeline has no benefit to working americans its all about the rich. It wont lower oil prices or gas a cent

So rich people are going to process the oil after it reaches Houston?

i think they will probably hire Americans who do not want to be welfare bums for that.

[Common]

We need our crumbling infrastructure rebuilt more than this pipeline that will only benefit the rich.

[Mac-7]

We need our crumbling infrastructure rebuilt more than this pipeline that will only benefit the rich.

We can do both.

[Common]

We can do both.

What is the benefit to regular americans with this pipeline. Dont tell me jobs they are just temporary and few. Its not going to lower Gasoline at the pump. Dont try to tell me its going to increase capacity because Big oil hasnt built and refinery in many decades and whenever theres too much oil they just shut down one or two for either repairs or maintenance excuses to lower supply.

So tell me whats in it for us little people, we already know what the rich get out of it

[Mac-7]

What is the benefit to regular americans with this pipeline.

Lower gas prices.

a more reliable supply.

jobs for Americans.

[Bob]

What is the benefit to regular americans with this pipeline. Dont tell me jobs they are just temporary and few. Its not going to lower Gasoline at the pump. Dont try to tell me its going to increase capacity because Big oil hasnt built and refinery in many decades and whenever theres too much oil they just shut down one or two for either repairs or maintenance excuses to lower supply.

So tell me whats in it for us little people, we already know what the rich get out of it

Where big oil is allowed to expand refineries, they have.

[Bob]

We need our crumbling infrastructure rebuilt more than this pipeline that will only benefit the rich.

Nobody has asked for cash for the pipeline. It is a net tax gain to the Feds. It has nothing to do with infrastructure of the sort you are bring up.

[Mac-7]

Nobody has asked for cash for the pipeline. It is a net tax gain to the Feds. It has nothing to do with infrastructure of the sort you are bring up.

According to obumer "You didn't build that" means that everything belongs to the state in lib la la land.

[Common]

BTW the liberals don't seem to care if its temprary construction jobs when they talk about roads. But Oil? Oh we can't support any Oil type jobs.......BS

When you build roads EVERYONE benefits, from the corporations who move their products to people that drive on the road. The pipeline is to enrich the rich and thats that.

[Alyosha]

When you build roads EVERYONE benefits, from the corporations who move their products to people that drive on the road. The pipeline is to enrich the rich and thats that.

What of people who get cheaper gas?

[Common]

Construction of a pipeline is very expensive. Check on how much just the material to build will cost...quoting the cost doesn't mean it going into the local economy. Construction is usually not done by unskilled, local labor...thank goodness. Pipelines require people who know what they are doing. Welders have to be x-ray qualified to work on oil pipelines. There is a construction skill called "pipeliners" that travel from job to job. Ever notice the expensive trucks (usually dualies) towing RV's. Pipeliners usually have their own welding machines in the back of their trucks. Not something the company building a pipeline expects to hire from the local employment office. Hate to add fuel to the fire, but a good many of them are union too. I'm sure there will be a few jobs for those willing to do the grunt work, but it doesn't last long nor pay very well.

I believe all that is absolutely true, you cant have some shmoe working on a pipeline thats going to carry fuel. One leak and the costs would be phenomenal, The environmental impact the cleanup and the lawsuits and the everything else. Pipelines are skilled temporary subcontracted work.

[Common]

What of people who get cheaper gas?

Not sure what your associating that with aly, if your associating it with the pipeline, I dont believe for one second gas will go done one cent. The price of gas is manipulated at will by big oil.

I love when the conservatives tell me they only make 8 cts a gallon profit but they never answer me when I said then how come everytime prices soar at the pump and gas consumption plummets because of it and they are selling LESS GALLONS how do they make windfall profits and break profit records. I guess theyre making alot more than 8 cts a gallon then because its not that they are selling more fuel they are selling less

[del]

What of people who get cheaper gas?

how will the xl make gas cheaper?

[Mister D]

how will the xl make gas cheaper?


Good question. @The Xl (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=865) ?

[Chloe]

All the keystone pipeline will really do is make it easier to export oil from Canada to the rest of the world, and in the end it only truly benefits the oil company. Prices at the gas station are not going to go down, we aren't going to be moving further away from foreign oil, or any of those nonsensical talking points. The pipeline means more oil exports and ultimately more pollution from a dirty energy source. Without the pipeline the tar sands site is hemorrhaging money and it needs the gulf coast access to make the wells more cost effective. It's a scam in my opinion and does far more harm than any possible good.

[Peter1469]

Prices will go down as more oil hits the market.

[Mac-7]

Not sure what your associating that with aly, if your associating it with the pipeline, I dont believe for one second gas will go done one cent. The price of gas is manipulated at will by big oil.



I paid $2.59 a gallon today.

why are the evil oil companies selling it so cheap now they used to get over $3.50?

[Chloe]

Prices will go down as more oil hits the market.

That's sortof wishful thinking. Every year prices still routinely go up in spite of all the drilling and all the rhetoric. 800,000 barrels a day exported around the world from tar sands will not make a significant impact on most people's daily lives, but it will certainly financially benefit the people involved with the drilling, the pipeline, and the selling of the oil.

[Mac-7]

That's sortof wishful thinking. Every year prices still routinely go up in spite of all the drilling and all the rhetoric. 800,000 barrels a day exported around the world from tar sands will not make a significant impact on most people's daily lives, but it will certainly financially benefit the people involved with the drilling, the pipeline, and the selling of the oil.

If you drive a car you should know that price of gas is going down.

[Alyosha]

That's sortof wishful thinking. Every year prices still routinely go up in spite of all the drilling and all the rhetoric. 800,000 barrels a day exported around the world from tar sands will not make a significant impact on most people's daily lives, but it will certainly financially benefit the people involved with the drilling, the pipeline, and the selling of the oil.

Thats because of a cartel outside the US that set prices. Prices are falling to act as a barrier to US interests in the market.

[del]

If you drive a car you should know that price of gas is going down.

if you've driven for more than a month, you know it will go back up

[Peter1469]

That's sortof wishful thinking. Every year prices still routinely go up in spite of all the drilling and all the rhetoric. 800,000 barrels a day exported around the world from tar sands will not make a significant impact on most people's daily lives, but it will certainly financially benefit the people involved with the drilling, the pipeline, and the selling of the oil.


Prices have dropped the last 6 months as the US got massive extra oil onto the market. Frack. :shocked:

[Chloe]

If you drive a car you should know that price of gas is going down.

Yes until it starts going right back up again

[Mac-7]

if you've driven for more than a month, you know it will go back up

If the evil, greedy oil companies control the price why drop it at all?

Lib conspiracy paranoids are barking at shadows.

[del]

If the evil, greedy oil companies control the price why drop it at all?

Lib conspiracy paranoids are barking at shadows.

and you're barking at the moon

get back to me when you think you have a point of some kind; i'll be happy to disabuse you of the notion

[Peter1469]

US oil production bigger than anticipated. (http://seekingalpha.com/article/2560825-with-increased-us-oil-production-buy-exxon-mobil-on-the-pullback)

We are responsible for the drop in oil prices.


http://static2.cdn-seekingalpha.com/images/users_profile/000/114/885/big_pic.png?1320157798 (http://seekingalpha.com/author/don-dion) Don Dion (http://seekingalpha.com/author/don-dion), Google+ (https://plus.google.com/u/0/103594875465327829003/about) (381 clicks)
Long/short equity, special situations, momentum, event-driven
Profile (http://seekingalpha.com/author/don-dion)| Send Message| Follow (8,386 followers)




With Increased US Oil Production, Buy Exxon Mobil On The Pullback Oct. 14, 2014 12:14 PM ET | About: Exxon Mobil Corporation (XOM) (http://seekingalpha.com/symbol/XOM)
Disclosure: The author has no positions in any stocks mentioned, and no plans to initiate any positions within the next 72 hours. (More...)







Summary

Growth of crude production in the United States is set to grow; the US has already matched global rival Saudi Arabia in daily output in 2014.
Already capitalizing on this trend, Exxon Mobil is set to benefit, as horizontal drilling and hydraulic fracturing technologies become more widely used.
Despite strong earnings results in Q2, Exxon Mobil shares have declined, opening a buying opportunity ahead of Q3 earnings on October 31.
With a strong outlook and history of beating earnings estimates, we are optimistic on this titan, heading into its next report.

[Mac-7]

and you're barking at the moon

get back to me when you think you have a point of some kind; i'll be happy to disabuse you of the notion

I just made my point.

Oil prices are governed by supply and demand.

and thanks to fracking and private oil production supply is greater and prices are lower.

[Chloe]

I just made my point.

Oil prices are governed by supply and demand.

and thanks to fracking and private oil production supply is greater and prices are lower.

yes 50 cents less per gallon at the pump for probably a limited time but all at the expense of millions of acres of wilderness destroyed by fracking and drilling as well as the amazing assurance of continued use of a dirty non-renewable energy source for years to come. What a gift!

[Mac-7]

yes 50 cents less per gallon at the pump for probably a limited time but all at the expense of millions of acres of wilderness destroyed by fracking and drilling as well as the amazing assurance of continued use of a dirty non-renewable energy source for years to come. What a gift!

Wilderness is not destroyed by oil production, hunting, camping or other human activities.

At least you have stopped denying that oil prices are falling because of increased supply.

[momsapplepie]

yes 50 cents less per gallon at the pump for probably a limited time but all at the expense of millions of acres of wilderness destroyed by fracking and drilling as well as the amazing assurance of continued use of a dirty non-renewable energy source for years to come. What a gift!


Maybe at one time years ago it would have destroyed wilderness. Now their methods are far more gentle. Don't be so over dramatic.

[Peter1469]

Cheaper energy prices helps all levels of the US economy. It also lowers manufacturing costs in the US and some is coming back as a result.

[momsapplepie]

Just wait til they open up Anbar.

[Mac-7]

continued use of a dirty non-renewable energy source for years to come.

Who are we kidding?

Greens are not worried that oil is non renewable.

You are pissed because we keep finding more of it instead of running out as promised by the global warming crowd.

[Peter1469]

Oil is cleaner than wood.

[Chloe]

Maybe at one time years ago it would have destroyed wilderness. Now their methods are far more gentle. Don't be so over dramatic.

Is this gentle fracking?

9572

[Alyosha]

yes 50 cents less per gallon at the pump for probably a limited time but all at the expense of millions of acres of wilderness destroyed by fracking and drilling as well as the amazing assurance of continued use of a dirty non-renewable energy source for years to come. What a gift!

Whats your immediate solution? Remember infrastructure, transition costs, opportunity costs, ect. Your non leather products, your clothes, your food at the store, is either made or gets to you by oil.

Your electricity, glasses, plexi windows, sterling wheel on the Prius, the dashboard, the tires, etc... All petroleum products...modern convenience depends on oil. Sad but true. You disdain it, but you use it.

Without oil no urban centers, no suburbia, you'd live like the Amish. Which I personally think is cool but can you toss the smart phone and do it?

I agree with you, but I'm also an anarcho primitivism and Luddite.

[Peter1469]

Is this gentle fracking?

9572

Is that fracking or strip mining?

[Chloe]

Who are we kidding?

Greens are not worried that oil is non renewable.

You are pissed because we keep finding more of it instead of running out as promised.

No not quite, i'm actually pissed that we are fixed on using a non renewable and dirty energy source. We have made the mistake in this country and in most of the world by making ourselves so dependent on oil that we are trapped by it in almost everything we do, and every new well, every new method, every new contract signed to keep utilizing that energy source delays our entry into a real future in my opinion.

[Chloe]

Is that fracking or strip mining?

I'm sorry I typed the wrong word after gentle. I meant to say gentle mining. The picture is of mountaintop mining for resources like coal.

[Mac-7]

No not quite, i'm actually pissed that we are fixed on using a non renewable and dirty energy source. We have made the mistake in this country and in most of the world by making ourselves so dependent on oil that we are trapped by it in almost everything we do, and every new well, every new method, every new contract signed to keep utilizing that energy source delays our entry into a real future in my opinion.

No one is stopping lib scientists and lib fat cats from replacing oil with the lost secrets of Atlantis.

the fact is that windmills and solar panels cannot take the place of fossil fuels at a competitive price in a free market.

[Alyosha]

No not quite, i'm actually pissed that we are fixed on using a non renewable and dirty energy source. We have made the mistake in this country and in most of the world by making ourselves so dependent on oil that we are trapped by it in almost everything we do, and every new well, every new method, every new contract signed to keep utilizing that energy source delays our entry into a real future in my opinion.

We are addicted. All of us. So you willing to move to a tipi and ride horse because bike tires are also petroleum made?

I think everyone should go low tech. We'd be better people too because we'd be forced to spend time with people again.

[momsapplepie]

I was going to correct you chloe. That is strip mining. Now I'll show a picture of a few fracking sites.

9573

9574

[Peter1469]

We can replace practically everything made with oil using alcohol and 18th century chemical engineering. (http://energyvictory.net/)

[Common]

Oil is much more than gasoline, diesel or fuel, its in everything Plastic, its in all carpets, except for the unaffordable all wool carpets.
Just imagine everything you see and touch thats plastic was made using oil. Stopping oil is just wishful thinking, it wont stop until it does run out.

[Chloe]

We are addicted. All of us. So you willing to move to a tipi and ride horse because bike tires are also petroleum made?

I think everyone should go low tech. We'd be better people too because we'd be forced to spend time with people again.

I'm not saying that we would have to transition completely cold turkey away from oil in one day, but there are certainly things we could do now when it comes to energy usage from cars to houses and so on. If we put half of our military budget towards enhancing the infrastructure of this country and transitioning away from fossil fuels as our main source for certain things it would be an amazing step forward towards a real future.

[Peter1469]

We can replace practically everything made with oil using alcohol and 18th century chemical engineering. (http://energyvictory.net/)
Oil is much more than gasoline, diesel or fuel, its in everything Plastic, its in all carpets, except for the unaffordable all wool carpets.
Just imagine everything you see and touch thats plastic was made using oil. Stopping oil is just wishful thinking, it wont stop until it does run out.

[Common]

I'm not saying that we would have to transition completely cold turkey away from oil in one day, but there are certainly things we could do now when it comes to energy usage from cars to houses and so on. If we put half of our military budget towards enhancing the infrastructure of this country and transitioning away from fossil fuels as our main source for certain things it would be an amazing step forward towards a real future.

Chloe how do we replace everything plastic in our society. Everything is made of plastic or with it, including your car and everything in your home.
We can have all electric cars and all electricity produced with wind but how do we replace everything thats made of plastic that needs oil to be produced. What would we make the same products out of.

[Common]

We can replace practically everything made with oil using alcohol and 18th century chemical engineering. (http://energyvictory.net/)

Well you must know alot I dont because I dont have a clue how that would work to be honest

[Peter1469]

Well you must know alot I dont because I dont have a clue how that would work to be honest

The book talks about it. It includes the formulas as well. Bob will probably want to study it.

[Bob]

I'm not saying that we would have to transition completely cold turkey away from oil in one day, but there are certainly things we could do now when it comes to energy usage from cars to houses and so on. If we put half of our military budget towards enhancing the infrastructure of this country and transitioning away from fossil fuels as our main source for certain things it would be an amazing step forward towards a real future.

What are the several best things about petroleum as used for autos, trucks and airplanes?

[Chloe]

Chloe how do we replace everything plastic in our society. Everything is made of plastic or with it, including your car and everything in your home.
We can have all electric cars and all electricity produced with wind but how do we replace everything thats made of plastic that needs oil to be produced. What would we make the same products out of.

You do not need oil exclusively to create plastics

[Alyosha]

I'm not saying that we would have to transition completely cold turkey away from oil in one day, but there are certainly things we could do now when it comes to energy usage from cars to houses and so on. If we put half of our military budget towards enhancing the infrastructure of this country and transitioning away from fossil fuels as our main source for certain things it would be an amazing step forward towards a real future.

When liberals get away with killing people, when war is necessary to maintaining an empire, do you think you'll see that in your lifetime without a revolution?

[Chloe]

When liberals get away with killing people, when war is necessary to maintaining an empire, do you think you'll see that in your lifetime without a revolution?

I don't know, I hope so. We can't maintain our current demands for our civilization for the next century on oil and gas. The likelihood of true world war is going to be the end result when these non-renewable energy sources start to really get pinched worldwide.

[Mac-7]

You do not need oil exclusively to create plastics

Oil has more practical uses than we can list here.

[Chloe]

Oil has more practical uses than we can list here.

Yet is totally unnecessary for many of the things that we think it has exclusivity over.

[Mac-7]

The likelihood of true world war is going to be the end result when these non-renewable energy sources start to really get pinched worldwide.

As I pointed out the environmentalists are really driven by their fear of global warming.

Which means running out of oil is the last of your worries.

[Common]

When liberals get away with killing people, when war is necessary to maintaining an empire, do you think you'll see that in your lifetime without a revolution?

Just liberals kill people ?

[Mac-7]

Yet is totally unnecessary for many of the things that we think it has exclusivity over.

Using oil is more practical and cheaper than making biodegradable plastic out of corn or soy beans.

[Peter1469]

Oil has more practical uses than we can list here.

Oh sure. And it all can be replaced with alcohol based manufacturing.

[Mac-7]

Oh sure. And it all can be replaced with alcohol based manufacturing.

At a higher price.

You have to make alcohol out of something so there are no free rides.

[Common]

You do not need oil exclusively to create plastics

You cant make plastic without oil, I dont know everything needed to make plastic but I know oil is a major ingredient.
Everything polyester in clothing is made from Oil. All these clogs are made from oil, Crocs and sliders. The cup you drink your take out coffee out of. Take out food containers. The list is endless.
Chloe, oil just isnt going anywhere. Until something can replace plastic.

[Peter1469]

At a higher price.

You have to make alcohol out of something so there are no free rides.

The price point is probably around $90p/bbl for oil.

[Chloe]

As I pointed out the environmentalists are really driven by their fear of global warming.

Which means running out of oil is the last of your worries.

Out of curiosity if we looked at just homes, that's it, just homes for now, and if we were able to have the majority of homes in this country powered by clean and renewable energy sources that you would not have to pay for month to month but at the same time it would mean that thousands of people would temporarily lose their jobs at oil and gas companies due to the reduction of money going to those businesses would you support that?

[Bob]

yes 50 cents less per gallon at the pump for probably a limited time but all at the expense of millions of acres of wilderness destroyed by fracking and drilling as well as the amazing assurance of continued use of a dirty non-renewable energy source for years to come. What a gift!

Wilderness is not destroyed by drilling. Fracking takes place very deep in the earth. Often 15000 feet and deeper.

All Fracking does is the same thing it has done for maybe 40 years with not one fracked well causing harm.


What I find interesting is that none of you appear to understand either deep drilling for oil or fracking.

We have drilled for oil in many states. We find no signs oil wells harm the country. We find no damage to water supplies. All fracking does is fracture the deep layers of oil rich sediment deposited long ago and allow it to be brought to the surface. Bear one thought in mind. They were pumping the well for a long time. Said oil did not harm us. Fracking simply allows oil veins in the rock to carry more of it to the surface.

As to claims oil is dirty. Coal can be the dirty type or the much cleaner type. Clinton robbed Utah by putting off limits thousands of acres of the very best clean coal on the planet. Burning that coal would save our skies and surely pollute far less.

To oil. Even oil has a clean type vs other oils which are more dirty. Refining corrects that problem
Peter1469

What is the book you recommended to me?

Have you studied physics for future presidents yet, the latest edition? I found it at the local library and it was fun reading.

[Mac-7]

The price point is probably around $90p/bbl for oil.

Why are you telling me?

there is a billionaire environmentalist who could follow in the footsteps of John D Rockefeller and do for alcohol what Rockefeller did for oil.

But instead all we get is big talk that leads to nothing.

[momsapplepie]

I don't know, I hope so. We can't maintain our current demands for our civilization for the next century on oil and gas. The likelihood of true world war is going to be the end result when these non-renewable energy sources start to really get pinched worldwide.

I disagree. It won't be energy sources that cause a true world war, it will be water.

[Chloe]

You cant make plastic without oil, I dont know everything needed to make plastic but I know oil is a major ingredient.
Everything polyester in clothing is made from Oil. All these clogs are made from oil, Crocs and sliders. The cup you drink your take out coffee out of. Take out food containers. The list is endless.
Chloe, oil just isnt going anywhere. Until something can replace plastic.

Yes, you can make plastic without oil. It's typically done using plant based materials and synthetics, but bio-plastics exist and do not require oil. They cost more at the moment but the more research and investment that goes into it the better it will be.

[Mac-7]

Out of curiosity if we looked at just homes, that's it, just homes for now, and if we were able to have the majority of homes in this country powered by clean and renewable energy sources that you would not have to pay for month to month but at the same time it would mean that thousands of people would temporarily lose their jobs at oil and gas companies due to the reduction of money going to those businesses would you support that?

If solar panels made financial sense you would not have to put a gun to my head to make me use them.

but in fact it would cost trillions to put solar panels on every house and most homeowners are not willing to pay for them.

[momsapplepie]

you mean like ethanol? Food for fuel? Brilliant idea! NOT!

[Peter1469]

This book. (http://energyvictory.net/)
Bob


Wilderness is not destroyed by drilling. Fracking takes place very deep in the earth. Often 15000 feet and deeper.

All Fracking does is the same thing it has done for maybe 40 years with not one fracked well causing harm.


What I find interesting is that none of you appear to understand either deep drilling for oil or fracking.

We have drilled for oil in many states. We find no signs oil wells harm the country. We find no damage to water supplies. All fracking does is fracture the deep layers of oil rich sediment deposited long ago and allow it to be brought to the surface. Bear one thought in mind. They were pumping the well for a long time. Said oil did not harm us. Fracking simply allows oil veins in the rock to carry more of it to the surface.

As to claims oil is dirty. Coal can be the dirty type or the much cleaner type. Clinton robbed Utah by putting off limits thousands of acres of the very best clean coal on the planet. Burning that coal would save our skies and surely pollute far less.

To oil. Even oil has a clean type vs other oils which are more dirty. Refining corrects that problem
@Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10)

What is the book you recommended to me?

Have you studied physics for future presidents yet, the latest edition? I found it at the local library and it was fun reading.

[Peter1469]

you mean like ethanol? Food for fuel? Brilliant idea! NOT!


There is zero reason to use food to make fuel.

[Chloe]

I disagree. It won't be energy sources that cause a true world war, it will be water.

Yet ironically the very energy sources that get promoted by people, such as fracking, harm watersheds, rivers, and so on, not to mention the amount of water fracking uses just to frack. Oil spills pollute water systems. Coal mining releases sediments and other junk into nearby waterways. If water is going to be the cause of world war then it will also be due in part by the energy sources that you are clinging to right now, wouldn't it?

[Chloe]

If solar panels made financial sense you would not have to put a gun to my head to make me use them.

but in fact it would cost trillions to put solar panels on every house and most homeowners are not willing to pay for them.

Yet most households are willing to pay far more every year for what they currently get than a one time installation and the occasional maintenance but with little to no energy bill inbetween, go figure.

[Mac-7]

There is zero reason to use food to make fuel.

Maybe libs could make food out of the oil and then all we would have to worry about is global warming caused by people farting.

[Common]

you mean like ethanol? Food for fuel? Brilliant idea! NOT!

Ethanol bill was passed only because iowa farmers wanted it too. Republicans are hostages to ethanol because they dont dare go to iowa an utter a bad word about ethanol.

Ethanol is a boondoggle, it costs gas mileage in autos and doesnt save a cent or an ounce of oil.
Its driven the price of corn as food through the roof just like Iowa likes it.

Ethanol should have been repealed long ago

[Alyosha]

Yet most households are willing to pay far more every year for what they currently get than a one time installation and the occasional maintenance but with little to no energy bill inbetween, go figure.

My brother had to go solar, radiant, geothermal, and wood furnace. Not everyone can afford that one time cost. Solar panels require silicon which is also a mined resource and is also pricey.

again, horses and wood cabins dude....

[Mac-7]

Yet most households are willing to pay far more every year for what they currently get than a one time installation and the occasional maintenance but with little to no energy bill inbetween, go figure.

It takes years to break even.

and solar panels do wear out.

so what you want is to tie up our money where it makes the least economic sense all for the sake of battling global warming.

[Chloe]

My brother had to go solar, radiant, geothermal, and wood furnace. Not everyone can afford that one time cost. Solar panels require silicon which is also a mined resource and is also pricey.

again, horses and wood cabins dude....

I'm not saying you have to do it all at one time, but to pretend that our current energy infrastructure is sustainable and good is just asinine in my opinion.

[Mac-7]

Ethanol bill was passed only because iowa farmers wanted it too. Republicans are hostages to ethanol because they dont dare go to iowa an utter a bad word about ethanol.



Ethanol was a wacko environmentalist idea that Iowa farmers managed to make money on.

but it was not their original idea.

[Bob]

Out of curiosity if we looked at just homes, that's it, just homes for now, and if we were able to have the majority of homes in this country powered by clean and renewable energy sources that you would not have to pay for month to month but at the same time it would mean that thousands of people would temporarily lose their jobs at oil and gas companies due to the reduction of money going to those businesses would you support that?

Sure since it is like asking me if I would leap a tall building in a single bound and speed faster than a bullet with the power of a locomotive. Sadly I can't live up to that.

However,to be practical, it is not practical to do as you want done.

[Alyosha]

I'm not saying you have to do it all at one time, but to pretend that our current energy infrastructure is sustainable and good is just asinine in my opinion.

Im saying you have to do it all at one time. You will see no real return on the large investment otherwise.

Incremental won't cause industries to change. We have to starve them as consumers.

[Peter1469]

Don't fall into the trap of thinking ethanol is only made from corn.

Corn is one of the least effective feed stock for alcohol fuel.

Ethanol bill was passed only because iowa farmers wanted it too. Republicans are hostages to ethanol because they dont dare go to iowa an utter a bad word about ethanol.

Ethanol is a boondoggle, it costs gas mileage in autos and doesnt save a cent or an ounce of oil.
Its driven the price of corn as food through the roof just like Iowa likes it.

Ethanol should have been repealed long ago

[Alyosha]

Speaking of homes ... Our homes in the US are too big. Micro houses are sustainable.

[momsapplepie]

Yet ironically the very energy sources that get promoted by people, such as fracking, harm watersheds, rivers, and so on, not to mention the amount of water fracking uses just to frack. Oil spills pollute water systems. Coal mining releases sediments and other junk into nearby waterways. If water is going to be the cause of world war then it will also be due in part by the energy sources that you are clinging to right now, wouldn't it?
No that would be only in your world. We've had oil pipelines for years. Coal for even longer. Water is recycled for fracking, but then seeing what you put up for a picture as what you imagine to be fracking, I can see you do not have any idea of current mining techniques. What would you say If I told you Al Gore, the great environmentalist, has been sued for using hard metal chemical mining in his mines for poisoning the land? Cadmium and Arsenic. Yes, Poisoned a whole bunch of people and fought the EPA about the costs of clean up. Sorry, if I don't fall for the save the environment when hypocrisy is the rule de jour.

[Mac-7]

Don't fall into the trap of thinking ethanol is only made from corn.

Corn is one of the least effective feed stock for alcohol fuel.

Why aren't rich libs who are traumatized by fear of global warming selling algae alcohol today?

[Alyosha]

Al Gore is a politician and globalist cocksucker like Cheney. Chloe's 19 and doesn't own a mine. She's just passionate.

[Bob]

I would love to find out how she intends to power a mighty ship with no petroleum. Or fly the largest jet airplane with renewable something or the other.

[momsapplepie]

It takes years to break even.

and solar panels do wear out.

so what you want is to tie up our money where it makes the least economic sense all for the sake of battling global warming.

Not only that, but with new EPA regulations, fire codes, etc. a solar system put in 5 years ago, is no longer up to code. It takes thousands of dollars to restructure to meet new regulations.

[Chloe]

I would love to find out how she intends to power a mighty ship with no petroleum. Or fly the largest jet airplane with renewable something or the other.

Same way planes went from people flapping paper wings over a hilltop to what you see today. They had the passion and drive to create something that many people thought couldn't exist.

[Alyosha]

I would love to find out how she intends to power a mighty ship with no petroleum. Or fly the largest jet airplane with renewable something or the other.

You cant. We shouldn't be sacrificing out children's children's future for convenience. Did Blackbeard need gas to sail the high seas.

[momsapplepie]

You cant. We shouldn't be sacrificing out children's children's future for convenience. Did Blackbeard need gas to sail the high seas.
No but then ship sails didn't kill birds or fry them either.:rollseyes:

[Chloe]

No but then ship sails didn't kill birds or fry them either.:rollseyes:

Neither did massive oil spills :wink:

[Mac-7]

You cant. We shouldn't be sacrificing out children's children's future for convenience. Did Blackbeard need gas to sail the high seas.

I think Blackbeard happily trade his sailing ship for a modern oil fired model.

[momsapplepie]

Neither did massive oil spills :wink:
nope, whale oil did that.:wink:

[Alyosha]

No but then ship sails didn't kill birds or fry them either.:rollseyes:

My point is that there are needs and there are wants. We want the modern lifestyle. We don't need it. We used to think about the future of our families and the past. We've lost that.

We don't care about the world we leave our kids. We think someone else will handle it.

now I'm not for laws because I know as a lawyer laws don't work. I'm for a change in culture.

[Chloe]

nope, whale oil did that.:wink:

I was hoping that I would get that joke but I don't :embarrassed:

[momsapplepie]

swoosh!

[Alyosha]

I think Blackbeard happily trade his sailing ship for a modern oil fired model.

He also murdered people. You could be right.

[Mac-7]

He also murdered people. You could be right.

You picked Blackbeard.

But I think any sailor in their right mind would make the same choice.

[Chloe]

swoosh!

yes, it was over my head unfortunately

[Alyosha]

You picked Blackbeard.

I picked a time period and used a point of reference.




But I think any sailor in their right mind would make the same choice.

not surprising. Most people are short term and selfish thinkers.

[momsapplepie]

I agree with you aloysha, I want my grandchildren to have a better world. I don't see the kinds of things like Obama had done, paying off his cronies in failed green energy efforts, or signed in china is going to make things better. Even the great Ivanpah solar plant is failing right now, and harming the environment, and then asking for billions more. I can't see billions of people suffering for failed pet projects. Why promote things such as wind power when it's killing birds? Why promote ethanol when it burns of valuable food? I'm not understanding green energy when all we are doing is substituting one sacrifice for another.

[del]

You cant. We shouldn't be sacrificing out children's children's future for convenience. Did Blackbeard need gas to sail the high seas.

yes, you can.

[Bob]

Question

Since the renewable technology exists
Since the products needed exists
Since the costs are reasonable
Chloe, what is the hold up?

It seems to be a slam dunk to get renewables

What is holding up the show?

[Bob]

I agree with you aloysha, I want my grandchildren to have a better world. I don't see the kinds of things like Obama had done, paying off his cronies in failed green energy efforts, or signed in china is going to make things better. Even the great Ivanpah solar plant is failing right now, and harming the environment, and then asking for billions more. I can't see billions of people suffering for failed pet projects. Why promote things such as wind power when it's killing birds? Why promote ethanol when it burns of valuable food? I'm not understanding green energy when all we are doing is substituting one sacrifice for another.

You are still cooking on all burners. The pilot light is lit and you are firing.

[The Xl]

Good question. @The Xl (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=865) ?

Because science brah.

[hanger4]

Not sure what your associating that with aly, if your associating it with the pipeline, I dont believe for one second gas will go done one cent. The price of gas is manipulated at will by big oil.

That's "gas will go DOWN" not "gas will go DONE" come on Common you can do it. :p : BTW Common the resr of ypu post is all hyperbole. 8% is not "windfall" profits.

[Mac-7]

I picked a time period and used a point

and then attacked YOUR OWN point of reference.

do you think every man who went to sea was a pirate?

[Mac-7]

Question

Since the renewable technology exists
Since the products needed exists
Since the costs are reasonable
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565), what is the hold up?

It seems to be a slam dunk to get renewables

What is holding up the show?

I keep asking Peter1469 a similar question.

and when I do he goes off to do his laundry somewhere and does not answer.

allegedly all this whoop-ti-do technology exists for the taking and no rich lib wants to get richer and save us from global warming by cashing in on it.

[Common]

You cant read well go read my post again. I write and type very well, I multitask and I can be on many sites at once. I even play wow and post here, so I make typos.

I dont cite others typos or miscues because its petty and assinine and doesnt do a damn thing to enhance your argument. When I know a person spells well and is fairly intelligent, im intelligent to know when they have made a typo or a slip of the tongue.

Btw in your post trying to demean me for my typo you HAVE TWO its not RESR its REST and its not YPU its your fail much. Last one of your silly try and bait posts I respond too.

[nathanbforrest45]

Prices will go down as more oil hits the market.


Exactly. If Canada is able to sell its oil to other countries that will mean more oil on the market. That will mean the law of supply and demand will work and the price of oil will decrease since the supply has increased. The United States is not the only country that uses oil. We are in competition with every other country in the world for oil. If that supply increases for what ever reason then the price will decrease.

[Mac-7]

Exactly. If Canada is able to sell its oil to other countries that will mean more oil on the market. That will mean the law of supply and demand will work and the price of oil will decrease since the supply has increased. The United States is not the only country that uses oil. We are in competition with every other country in the world for oil. If that supply increases for what ever reason then the price will decrease.

Lib environmentalists do not understand or believe in basic economics.

[nathanbforrest45]

That's sortof wishful thinking. Every year prices still routinely go up in spite of all the drilling and all the rhetoric. 800,000 barrels a day exported around the world from tar sands will not make a significant impact on most people's daily lives, but it will certainly financially benefit the people involved with the drilling, the pipeline, and the selling of the oil.

Chloe
Do you believe that only the "corporations" make money from the increased production of oil? Do the "corporations" drill for the oil personally or do they hire workmen for that task? Yes, the profits (I am sorry to use such a vile word in your presence) increase but so does the number of people working in the industry. Corporations do not operate in a vacuum and the "owners" of the corporation is us, the people who own stock in the companies and I don't know about you but I do my happy dance when my portfolio increases in value.

[nathanbforrest45]

Yes until it starts going right back up again

Or it goes down even further when more oil hits the market.

[nathanbforrest45]

Maybe at one time years ago it would have destroyed wilderness. Now their methods are far more gentle. Don't be so over dramatic.


She is a liberal college student. Drama is their stock in trade. The tears, the clenched fist, the squinted eyes, that's been their method since Mother Jones lied to the miners about her true age.

[nathanbforrest45]

Is this gentle fracking?

9572

Its not fracking at all

[nathanbforrest45]

Chloe how do we replace everything plastic in our society. Everything is made of plastic or with it, including your car and everything in your home.
We can have all electric cars and all electricity produced with wind but how do we replace everything thats made of plastic that needs oil to be produced. What would we make the same products out of.


Pixie dust

[nathanbforrest45]

Just liberals kill people ?


No ghetto gang bangers do as well. Those groups are fueled by liberal policies however

[Mac-7]

@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565)
Do you believe that only the "corporations" make money from the increased production of oil? Do the "corporations" drill for the oil personally or do they hire workmen for that task? Yes, the profits (I am sorry to use such a vile word in your presence) increase but so does the number of people working in the industry. Corporations do not operate in a vacuum and the "owners" of the corporation is us, the people who own stock in the companies and I don't know about you but I do my happy dance when my portfolio increases in value.

Actually independent distributors make money off the oil, as do service station owners.

Both of whom hire the less-than-rich to assist them in their business.

because people have gas they drive.

which creates demand for car dealerships, mechanics, salesmen, ect.

when people drive they often visit shopping malls which helps create jobs for even more less-than-rich people.

Oil fuels our economy in ways that lib environmentalists cannot even imagine.

[Peter1469]

Why aren't rich libs who are traumatized by fear of global warming selling algae alcohol today?

Because the nation lacks the infrastructure for an alcohol based economy.

[Mac-7]

Because the nation lacks the infrastructure for an alcohol based economy.

John d Rockefeller built the infrastructure he needed.

[hanger4]

You cant read well go read my post again. I write and type very well, I multitask and I can be on many sites at once. I even play wow and post here, so I make typos.

I dont cite others typos or miscues because its petty and assinine and doesnt do a $#@! thing to enhance your argument. When I know a person spells well and is fairly intelligent, im intelligent to know when they have made a typo or a slip of the tongue.

Btw in your post trying to demean me for my typo you HAVE TWO its not RESR its REST and its not YPU its your fail much. Last one of your silly try and bait posts I respond too.

Sure ya do.
You require far more than he can provide

You jumped on the band wagon with da Capt. All make typos. You dish I'll dish back.

[Peter1469]

John d Rockefeller built the infrastructure he needed.

He also stacked the deck against alcohol fuel by supporting prohibition. Prior to that both gas and alcohol was used as fuel.

[Captain Obvious]

lol - fat capitalists are throwing the dogs table scraps and the dogs can't wag their tails fast enough.

[PolWatch]

no one seems to have noticed that oil refineries are not working at full capacity...another method to control supply & price. The % I heard was about 65 to 70% capacity...(before everyone gets their panties in a wad...I actually know people who work at oil refineries & that is where I get the #'s)

[texan]

I will wrap this up for the liberals. The administration has shown thru Healthcare their willingness to mislead you and put you in a bad position. Obama's own State Department listed the positives of this deal. HE didn't like it so he just made some crap up like 35 jobs. No one in their right mind would ever bet on that number. So if you don't like the numbers blame and belittle the State Department, not me.

The positives far out way the negatives. There are thousands of "temporary" or 2 year high paying jobs available. Not really much different than the 2 year road infrastructure jobs. We should do both! We shouldn't make decisions based on politics and half cocked political spin.

Again, if you are unemployed or under employed would you take a roughneck good paying job for a couple years? ABSOLUTELY! Why are we denying them? Because it says "oil" in the title and its ideology over economy a death sentance for this country doled out by this administration.

These are the facts and they are indisputable.

[Alyosha]

and then attacked YOUR OWN point of reference.

do you think every man who went to sea was a pirate?

omg, did I say every man at sea was a pirate? Don't project your logical fallacies at me.

My point which you seem to thick to get, is that we've lived without these things before. We're addicted to modern convenience but we don't need it.

[Alyosha]

lol - fat capitalists are throwing the dogs table scraps and the dogs can't wag their tails fast enough.

That would be because they're hungry. You want the fat capitalists to pay, show up with pitchforks. Otherwise you're just denying the dogs food because the system is already in place.

[Captain Obvious]

That would be because they're hungry. You want the fat capitalists to pay, show up with pitchforks. Otherwise you're just denying the dogs food because the system is already in place.

I agree - I've said this before.

We should grind them all up for fertilizer and take all their shit and invest a lot of it in infrastructure and education.

[Bob]

Here is the little known fact concerning fuels for cars....

Most think firms like Shell or Standard oil manage the market.

Check out the refineries. There are hundreds of them.

Most of us do not pay attention to the refineries and assume big oil owns and operates them.

This is a don't take my word, research refineries. There are too many of them for them to control the market.

Here in CA they have the best shot. You guys in the east of the Rockies are lucky to have a lot more refineries than we have in CA. Here they have an easier time putting the chocks to us. They do control our market here. But even here, we still have refineries not run by so called big oil.

Some of you claim there are no new refineries. True but it does not tell us that a number of very huge refineries added a lot more capacity. Do your homework and you will learn more.

[Bob]

no one seems to have noticed that oil refineries are not working at full capacity...another method to control supply & price. The % I heard was about 65 to 70% capacity...(before everyone gets their panties in a wad...I actually know people who work at oil refineries & that is where I get the #'s)

Obama's top down policies drove this country into tiny cars. The aim was to save gasoline. Refineries were built years ago to supply a quantity of fuel. When tiny cars dominated as they do here in CA, the stuff hit the fan. Suddenly fuel tax revenue fell ... big time. Why do you think Obama mouths off over infrastructure? We had plenty of cash for infrastructure. Much of infrastructure costs the feds nothing since it is paid for inside states. I helped build county roads in CA (bridges actually) where the Feds had nothing to say. It was from 1958 to 1967 but at one point I was in management for a major construction firm so I knew the economics.

I kept on my office wall in San Francisco, costs and dates to finish various phases of my job building a BART ventilation shaft in the city. I reported to the Company VP, Dick Castle. I believe he is now dead. If not, he is sure old.

While the economy all over America tumbled down, a lot of states revenues from taxes has gone back up. The Feds manage to spend a lot more per year than Clinton did and it is not due to inflation only. They allege inflation is pretty flat.

[Alyosha]

I agree - I've said this before.

We should grind them all up for fertilizer and take all their shit and invest a lot of it in infrastructure and education.

Laws never help because they can tie up the courts for years. An angry mob storming a building would definitely make fat cats think twice.

[nathanbforrest45]

He also stacked the deck against alcohol fuel by supporting prohibition. Prior to that both gas and alcohol was used as fuel.


Prohibition did not stop the production of alcohol for fuel.

[Alyosha]

Prohibition did not stop the production of alcohol for fuel.

It stopped it during prohibition thus destroying an industry for years and playing favorites to other industries.

http://www.eia.gov/EnergyExplained/?page=biofuel_ethanol_home

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Bob http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=836052#post836052)
Question

Since the renewable technology exists
Since the products needed exists
Since the costs are reasonable
@Chloe (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=565), what is the hold up?

It seems to be a slam dunk to get renewables

What is holding up the show?


I keep asking Peter1469 a similar question.

and when I do he goes off to do his laundry somewhere and does not answer.

allegedly all this whoop-ti-do technology exists for the taking and no rich lib wants to get richer and save us from global warming by cashing in on it.

I used the @ symbol by her name to alert her to the question. Try that with Peter1469. Don't expect more than a couple of words though.

Did she reply to me? I am trying to catch up on this thread.

It is not that the products do not exist. It has to be cost of products, market not accepting and so forth.

I recall a poster on AOL that lived in Minnesota who kept bragging he added non renewals to his homes and his business. He would bust a gut bragging when Clnton was president and later for Obama. HE despised Bush.

But to the energy point, he lamented later that his costs had been high and did not get enough bang for his buck and the prices fell somewhat fast so he did not ever make up for prices using the grid vs his own personal power production.

Let's lay it out.

I once had a hot water solar system on a home I had purchased for a rental. The deal included me paying off the solar on the roof. As it turned out, the enormous cost got him a income tax deduction but no benefit to me. I put a new roof on the home and removed the solar heater. It was not really saving any money. I figured I would put it on one of the other properties. As it turns out, I ended up scrapping it out.

When they sell you solar heaters, you get a sales pitch every bit as good as an used car salesman gives you. In other words, they make false claims.

I was up in the Sierra mountains looking over a home that was off the grid. The property ran into a few hundred acres and the garage contained the batteries needed to be charged as the sun was shining. Those batteries had lead in them which is ignored by environmentalists. Anyway, what happens when the sun does not shine and the batteries were depleted of the charge? The property and home were offered for something like 3 million dollars and the owner had built the home with a lot of insulation.

Anyway, this takes a very good electronics engineer plus an economist to figure it all out.

Look at the unintended consequences of high mileage cars.

Not only are you less safe in a tiny car, but you are making sure your state highway funds has a lot less in the till to fix those roads you want fixed.

[Bob]

Because the nation lacks the infrastructure for an alcohol based economy.

Some of the alcohol touters should find a place to fill up on just alcohol and then try to start the car. I would love to see it happen. LOL

[Bob]

If solar panels made financial sense you would not have to put a gun to my head to make me use them.

but in fact it would cost trillions to put solar panels on every house and most homeowners are not willing to pay for them.

When the Feds reduce a person's taxes enough, they buy renewable.

It is simply far too expensive to pay for unless you get the government (the rest of us) to help pay for it.

It is so bad, only incentives get people into renewable energy. Chloe is not familiar with the economics of renewables.

A good book for her is ...http://www.amazon.com/Physics-Future-Presidents-Science-Headlines/dp/0393337111

[Mac-7]

He also stacked the deck against alcohol fuel by supporting prohibition. Prior to that both gas and alcohol was used as fuel.

Rockefeller was a billionaire decades before Prohibition.

[Mac-7]

My point which you seem to thick to get, is that we've lived without these things before. We're addicted to modern convenience but we don't need it.

You chose Blackbeard as your example of a sailer.

but then smear him as a pirate.

well he's YOUR pirate, and killer or not I think he would prefer a modern ship powered by fossil fuel over the sails he was forced to rely on.

[Bob]

This book. (http://energyvictory.net/)
@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013)

Thanks Peter1469. I submitted a purchase request to my library since they don't have the book.

Something you may want to learn.

Flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs) have an internal combustion engine and are capable of operating on gasoline, E85 (http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_e85.html) (a gasoline-ethanol blend containing 51% to 83% ethanol, depending on geography and season), or a mixture of the two. According to IHS Polk, there are more than 17.4 million FFVs on U.S. roads today. However, many flex fuel vehicle owners don't realize their car is an FFV and that they have a choice of fuels.
Other than employing an ethanol-compatible fuel system and powertrain calibration, FFVs are similar to their conventional gasoline counterparts. The only perceivable difference is that the fuel economy is lower when FFVs run on ethanol. Their power, acceleration, payload, and cruise speed are comparable whether running on ethanol or gasoline.
Flexible fuel vehicles are considered alternative fuel vehicles (AFVs) under the Energy Policy Act of 1992 (http://www.afdc.energy.gov/laws/key_legislation#epact92).

[Bob]

Peter1469
Would we just substitute a different cartel for the current petroleum cartel by going to alcohol fuels?

President Bush wanted switch grass used since people don't eat it and it works very well to produce such fuel. Notice Obama does not bring this up.

As of the date of this report, 17.4 million vehicles operate on flex fuel with many not knowing it.

Ethanol has played hell with the food market. Corn is used in more than cereal or frozen and canned products, it is used for fructose syrup.

Look at the general prices of food and notice why the prices are skyrocketing.

[Bob]

Most people don't understand how much money they save using fossil fuels. Almost any other way to power our way around the world is either not practical, too expensive and also subject to cartels. Give them time and no matter the fuel, a cartel can be formed.

[Bob]

Rockefeller was a billionaire decades before Prohibition.

An easy way to see this would be

For a dollar of Alcohol fuel, you probably travel 20 or more percent less than a dollar of gasoline takes you. Alcohol fuel is also more expensive per gallon.

Below from the Alternate fuels center you see their figures for both AF and Gasoline.

You can confirm this at this site. http://www.afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/flexible_fuel.html



Flex Fuel Vehicle
20
City
28
Hwy (mi/gal of E85)





Gasoline Vehicle
27
City
38
Hwy (mi/gal)



Defaults based on 2013 Ford Focus FWD FFV

[Peter1469]

Yes. My car is E-85. It does get less alcohol mileage than gas mileage. But the alcohol is cheaper (when you can find it). I will say that you should stick with gas if the temps get below 20F.


Thanks @Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10). I submitted a purchase request to my library since they don't have the book.

Something you may want to learn.

Flexible fuel vehicles (FFVs) have an internal combustion engine and are capable of operating on gasoline, E85 (http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/ethanol_e85.html) (a gasoline-ethanol blend containing 51% to 83% ethanol, depending on geography and season), or a mixture of the two. According to IHS Polk, there are more than 17.4 million FFVs on U.S. roads today. However, many flex fuel vehicle owners don't realize their car is an FFV and that they have a choice of fuels.
Other than employing an ethanol-compatible fuel system and powertrain calibration, FFVs are similar to their conventional gasoline counterparts. The only perceivable difference is that the fuel economy is lower when FFVs run on ethanol. Their power, acceleration, payload, and cruise speed are comparable whether running on ethanol or gasoline.
Flexible fuel vehicles are considered alternative fuel vehicles (AFVs) under the Energy Policy Act of 1992 (http://www.afdc.energy.gov/laws/key_legislation#epact92).

[Peter1469]

It could also be a great boom for small business. Switch grass is good, myscute (sp) is good and can be grown in arid regions and help prevent desertification.

There is no reason to use food crops, or land for food crops. Although you could strip out the glucose (sugar) from corn to make alcohol fuel and feed the fiber and protein to animals. That would be healthier for the cows and the people who eat them.


@Peter1469 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=10)
Would we just substitute a different cartel for the current petroleum cartel by going to alcohol fuels?

President Bush wanted switch grass used since people don't eat it and it works very well to produce such fuel. Notice Obama does not bring this up.

As of the date of this report, 17.4 million vehicles operate on flex fuel with many not knowing it.

Ethanol has played hell with the food market. Corn is used in more than cereal or frozen and canned products, it is used for fructose syrup.

Look at the general prices of food and notice why the prices are skyrocketing.

[PolWatch]

One of the power plants in northeast Alabama (Gadsden area) made modifications to use switch grass several years ago. I haven't heard anything about how well that worked out. (husband was there for the construction)

doesn't look like it was terribly successful:

Alabama Power’s Gadsden plant has the capability to produce steam and electricity
using coal or natural gas, or both. The plant also was an experimental site for bu
rning wood biomass and switch grass fuels, but the plant now does not burn biomass.

http://www.psc.alabama.gov/Dunn/GoodyearDunn.pdf

[Bob]

Yet ironically the very energy sources that get promoted by people, such as fracking, harm watersheds, rivers, and so on, not to mention the amount of water fracking uses just to frack. Oil spills pollute water systems. Coal mining releases sediments and other junk into nearby waterways. If water is going to be the cause of world war then it will also be due in part by the energy sources that you are clinging to right now, wouldn't it?

I would not call fracking an energy source so much as a technique to produce the oil that is always in the rocks very deep into the earth.

Water wells typically are a shallow well. I recall in the San Joaquin valley being told as a young lad the well on property my uncle was the caretaker for was about 300 feet deep.

In fact the average water well is 100 to 200 feet deep.

The area of earth that is fracked is thousands of feet deep. Oil is very deep beneath the earth in almost all cases. They have a process that holds the water supply the drill passes through from coming into the oil well. Oil and water don't mix. Bentonite is the natural clay product used in oil wells. It is remarkable what it can do to stop water from getting into the well. Drillers call it Drillers fluid or mud. I used it a lot on one job in San Francisco and would demonstrate how well it worked when people from all over the world visited my job.

I saw engineers from all over who wanted to learn what we did and how it was done and the problems.

Since fracking happens far beneath the surface in rock formations, it really can't do much above ground since the fluids are collected at the surface and used over and over.

Fracking is not new. Drillers have used it a long time. Some new techniques account for the way it has improved the fuel supply of America and help end the dominance of the Arabs.

[Bob]

One of the power plants in northeast Alabama (Gadsden area) made modifications to use switch grass several years ago. I haven't heard anything about how well that worked out. (husband was there for the construction)

doesn't look like it was terribly successful:

Alabama Power’s Gadsden plant has the capability to produce steam and electricity
using coal or natural gas, or both. The plant also was an experimental site for bu
rning wood biomass and switch grass fuels, but the plant now does not burn biomass.

http://www.psc.alabama.gov/Dunn/GoodyearDunn.pdf

Since most of us never worked remotely in the field of energy, we tend to shoot from the lip and the brain is not engaged. They mean well, but they simply lack knowledge. I know nothing more about horses than they have 4 legs and can carry me and run. But to pontificate about horses would make me a laughing stock.

They simply do not comprehend how complex this is. They see oil as dirty. I don't quite know how that gets said, but it is. It is not the sludge beneath your car. That contains a lot of dirt in oil products. That is the dirt not the oil.

I hoped as President Bush did that switch grass was a good answer. I am happy for your report. Gives me more to research.

[Bob]

Depth of typical water well.

http://www.ask.com/home-garden/average-depth-water-well-7bdebd6b5345eae2

Alternative fuel site

http://www.afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/flexible_fuel.html

[Bob]

Peter1469

We who raced are often quite familiar with various fuels. We will use Nitromethane with Alcohol as a fuel. First, we expect each race to cost a fortune in fuel.

I once with a partner took a Triumph Motorcycle, 650 cc engine and converted it to a blend of Nitromethane and Alcohol. Starting it was a nightmare.

We had to tow it using a car or pickup truck. Even so, we first installed a tank with gasoline in cold weather. We re-jetted the engine to use gasoline. We could then start it up and warm up the engine. We then rushed super fast to pull the gasoline tank and swap it with a tank with the blend. We also re-jetted the carburetors at the same time. IT took team work and speed to make it happen. When done, we towed it with the car to start it up.

I was just in the process to report for the draft so I was only able to help my partner for 1 or two races.

When we fired it up, and took it down the track somewhere about the 900 foot mark the head gaskets blew. The engine was really powerful. The bike in the 1/4 mile with the blown head gasket still would cross the finish line in the 9 second range I believe. It would still be going over 120 miles per hour despite the sudden lost power.

We have top fuel dragsters able to hit over 335 mph in the 1/4 mile but no alcohol fueler has gone that fast or quick. I believe the top fuelers today hit the 1/4 mile in maybe a bit less than 4 seconds. That is fast.

Obama ought to consult with the racers to learn more about fuels.

[Bob]

One of the power plants in northeast Alabama (Gadsden area) made modifications to use switch grass several years ago. I haven't heard anything about how well that worked out. (husband was there for the construction)

doesn't look like it was terribly successful:

Alabama Power’s Gadsden plant has the capability to produce steam and electricity
using coal or natural gas, or both. The plant also was an experimental site for bu
rning wood biomass and switch grass fuels, but the plant now does not burn biomass.

http://www.psc.alabama.gov/Dunn/GoodyearDunn.pdf

This is from the power-plant and they explain problems.

https://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/pdffiles/FR/FR20400.pdf

Problems with burning wood are discussed as with problems with switchgrass.

President Bush told his admin to try to promote switchgrass but not burned. It was to be processed to extract the alcohol and use it for fuel and not use corn.

[Bob]

One thing Peter1469 about Zubrins book is how he wants the Feds to demand autos change to flex fuels.

The market is awesome when the government keeps out. It is far worse the more the Feds get involved.

Suppose the Feds mandated we all use a particular speed of computer and we had to purchase them.

Prices would skyrocket. The computer industry would know they own us by our short hairs.

[Captain Obvious]

Bob - stop posting to this thread!

[Bob]

Peter1469

When I tell you alcohol fuel costs more, I am including the fact the Feds pay a lot to the producers simply to produce it.

While oil companies get allowances, the Feds do not send them checks to pay for oil products.

I am not current on the feds payments for alcohol but the last time I checked, I believe it was at least .50 cents per gallon to the plants who make the fuel.

[Bob]

Bob - stop posting to this thread!

Thanks for your concern.

[Mac-7]

Thanks for your concern.

You are ripping libs like Captain Cartoon a new asshole with your facts and logic.

No wonder he wants you to shut up.

[Captain Obvious]

You are ripping libs like Captain Cartoon a new asshole with your facts and logic.

No wonder he wants you to shut up.

https://31.media.tumblr.com/287d3a48faec929a0723080cb89ca3c4/tumblr_inline_netwfsakxW1slqsa3.gif

[Bob]

You are ripping libs like Captain Cartoon a new asshole with your facts and logic.

No wonder he wants you to shut up.
Captain Obvious is here to bawl. Every eye needs cleaning at times. Let the man bawl his eyes out. Don't bother me.

[Mac-7]

@Captain Obvious (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=3) is here to bawl. Every eye needs cleaning at times. Let the man bawl his eyes out. Don't bother me.

You are engaging them calmly with logic and facts.

they have neither of those two to fight back with so have have to resort to personal attacks.

[Bob]

You are engaging them calmly with logic and facts.

they have neither of those two to fight back with so have have to resort to personal attacks.

I feel his tears coming through this monitor. Helping me keep my computer clean, one tear upon another. LOL

[Captain Obvious]

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&source=images&cd=&ved=0CAUQjBw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fgifatron.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2013%2F02%2Fget_a_room.gif&ei=ofFkVP6UOZKqyASikYLwCg&psig=AFQjCNFFj7R_fiewnYCUMR-6YM3k5xMGow&ust=1415988002015128

[Cigar]

Democrats would have you believe that this project nets out 40 jobs and that my friends shows how far they will go to defend the indefensible.........

Some jobs are 2 year jobs they say, but if you are out of work would you like to have one now in the hopes that things start to boom in a couple years and you catch on somewhere else? Or maybe this job leads to another? Or would you rather follow the liberals into bankruptcy?

I can also assure you that a pipeline will leave more than 40 jobs in its dust. This is nothing but a anti-american talking point. You are seeing what a democrat job market and wages really look like the past several years. Why don;t we double down on Obamacare and kill some more jobs or do another Dodd Frank Bill!

Can you help me out here?

You get all excited about an Estimated 40k jobs for 2 or less years, but 56 consecutive months of positive Job growth since January of 2010 isn't a big deal? :rollseyes:

[Howey]

temporary jobs after a pipeline is built it just takes occaisonal maintenance or repair that is usually subcontracted
That pipeline has no benefit to working americans its all about the rich. It wont lower oil prices or gas a cent

Quoted for truthery.

[Green Arrow]

Don't care, I refuse to support it until my concerns are addressed.

[Mac-7]

Don't care, I refuse to support it until my concerns are addressed.

You have not expressed any "concerns" on this thread.