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Sultan
05-31-2012, 05:27 AM
Mubarak verdict is announced on Saturday.

There is news that 20,000 troops and 160 tanks will secure the court and the hospital he is in.

is this a sign that the verdict may not be what the people want?
:huh:

Also strange that the Mubarak brothers just yesterday are charged with stock market corruption. Is this a sign that they will be found not guilty but to appease the people go to trial for these new charges only for Shafik to free all of them IF he becomes president.

I can really feel and see a bloodbath coming.....................

Conley
05-31-2012, 09:35 AM
I hadn't checked on the trial in a while. I was wondering if Mubarak was really as sick as he was projecting? It sounds like with a crowd gathered that large big security would be needed either way but I am worried about a bloodbath too.

Frogger
05-31-2012, 11:22 AM
In my opinion Egypt was a lot better off under Mubarak than it has been since his overthrow. Christians and non-traditional Muslims especially were better off. It is my sincere hope that the military remains in control. If that does not happen I see Egypt descending into a medieval miasma.

Conley
05-31-2012, 04:10 PM
That makes sense, some of these dictators allowed minority groups to thrive whereas that won't be the case with the new governments.

As a parallel, here is an interesting thread / article about Christians in Syria supporting Assad if you want to take a look

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/2130-Christians-Support-Assad-in-Syria

Frogger
05-31-2012, 04:43 PM
Not only Christians but the Middle Class supports Assad in Syria. The revolt in Syria is being peopled mainly by rural villagers and farmers who have been hard hit by successive years of drought. The educated, urban class, while not being fans of Assad are far more scared of what the future would hold if the rebels win. These are shop owners, entrepreneurs, etc. who have seen what militant Islam has dont to destroy freedom in the countries where it has risen to the top of the political heap.

Better limited freedom under Assad than a theocracy under the rebels.

MMC
05-31-2012, 08:52 PM
Not only Christians but the Middle Class supports Assad in Syria. The revolt in Syria is being peopled mainly by rural villagers and farmers who have been hard hit by successive years of drought. The educated, urban class, while not being fans of Assad are far more scared of what the future would hold if the rebels win. These are shop owners, entrepreneurs, etc. who have seen what militant Islam has dont to destroy freedom in the countries where it has risen to the top of the political heap.

Better limited freedom under Assad than a theocracy under the rebels.


The revolt in Syria is being pressured by the Sunni Arabs backed by the Saud. As usual the Sunni cry foul when others are allowed to fight back.

RollingWave
05-31-2012, 09:26 PM
Well, Mubarak is 80 years old... it's not hard to see folks' health go quickly at that age.

Conley
05-31-2012, 09:34 PM
Well, Mubarak is 80 years old... it's not hard to see folks' health go quickly at that age.

But he could afford the very best of care for most of those years. :wink: You're right though.

RollingWave
06-01-2012, 01:51 AM
well power is often the best fountain of youth for many people.... or maybe it's a drug, since after they're off it the effect bites back quite hard.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 03:53 AM
That makes sense, some of these dictators allowed minority groups to thrive whereas that won't be the case with the new governments.

As a parallel, here is an interesting thread / article about Christians in Syria supporting Assad if you want to take a look

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/2130-Christians-Support-Assad-in-Syria

I wish people would make up their minds

Before 25th January were we not supposed to be all out killing Christians?

We we not the ones being blamed for the Alex church and Mosque bombing on New Years eve? the upper Egypt massacres of Christians? of being the ones who have almost killed them all and are beheading them?

Sultan
06-01-2012, 03:54 AM
The revolt in Syria is being pressured by the Sunni Arabs backed by the Saud. As usual the Sunni cry foul when others are allowed to fight back.

correction

Saudi Wahabis

Sultan
06-01-2012, 03:57 AM
I hadn't checked on the trial in a while. I was wondering if Mubarak was really as sick as he was projecting? It sounds like with a crowd gathered that large big security would be needed either way but I am worried about a bloodbath too.

during his trial they did not have all those troops or tanks out though

people here are saying that Shafik will rule and Mubarak will then become his VP

maybe not such a joke

wingrider
06-01-2012, 04:11 AM
if the news people got it wrong then maybe, just maybe, you all could correct the error, but the videos are going to be hard to refute.

wingrider
06-01-2012, 04:17 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7K_6GvpMlU sorry but there are about 7 pages of these kinds of videos on you tube alone , hard to tell how many more there are on the webs,, what needs to be done and won't be is for those who are against this violence to rise up and stop it..

Sultan
06-01-2012, 04:55 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7K_6GvpMlU sorry but there are about 7 pages of these kinds of videos on you tube alone , hard to tell how many more there are on the webs,, what needs to be done and won't be is for those who are against this violence to rise up and stop it..


Where in Cairo was this video taken?

wingrider
06-01-2012, 05:01 AM
Where in Cairo was this video taken?
why ? does it make a difference what street it was on?

Sultan
06-01-2012, 05:16 AM
why ? does it make a difference what street it was on?

yes it makes a big difference

First it is from Fox News and we all know about Fox News.

But back to the video.

The first part is in Mohammed Mahmoud Street. That is central Cairo and on that day the Muslims and Christians were fighting the army at the MOD just up from the AUC. So that part clearly was not Muslims attacking Christians.

NOTE FOX repeated that part twice for visual effect !

The second part of this video is burning of the church is another location in Imbaba. That if you remember was where the Ilan Grapel American Israeli was arrested where he was caught inciting sectarian violence along with a few others. The Imbaba incident was all about a Coptic girl from upper Egypt villagewho converted to Islam and fled to Cairo away from her family and was kidnapped and held by the Church in Imbaba. this caused the Muslims to try to rescue her when her husband called for help and resulted in burning of a church and a mosque by opposing forces. The girl later went on TV and said she wanted to be left alone but was in fact arrested and charged for being in the middle of the fracas and she was Muslim. Ilan Grapel was released in a US deal.

the other parts of the video are from Tahrir location and nothing to do with Muslim versus Coptic Christian. They are against army.

You should be very careful about these mixing of videos expecially by Fox News.

I'm surprised they did not use the Maspero clips. Lots of videos all with Christians supported by the Muslims outside Maspero. Clips were BOTH were fighting the army BUT Fox no doubt said the army were slaughtering the Christians. How would that be so when they were BOTH Christians and Muslims.

If you want to see videos you would need to check out Minya and Assyut and Sohag where the big Christian communities live but alas it seems that no Christians seem to video as evidence all these slaughters they speak of for U Tube.

No reason not to video it as just about EVERY Egyptian has one mobile and mainly two phones handy to record these incidents but show me just one on U Tube :wink:

Sultan
06-01-2012, 05:26 AM
Also why did FOX news choose a catholic priest to interview?

Why not a Coptic Orthodox bishop who lives in Egypt and witnessed these apparent slaughters?

Were they hoping that Americans watching would not know the difference between them?

May Allah judge that catholic priest accordingly

Sultan
06-01-2012, 05:33 AM
We in the middle east and Africa are fighting your countries huge media campaign but luckily they use Fox as the main source of mis information for you over there. Fox is very easy to expose in their lies to American public.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 05:40 AM
Back to Mubarak

Carlos Latuff cartoon

http://latuffcartoons.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/mubarak-may-get-death-penalty.gif?w=590&h=501

Sultan
06-01-2012, 05:42 AM
My mistake

Muslims and Christians in Mohammed Mahmoud fighting SCAF not the army

Sultan
06-01-2012, 06:50 AM
Christian tribal militia men of 500 tribal chiefs in support of Shafik felool in upper Egypt town shooting at unarmed anti Mubarak protesters(Most likely Muslim Brotherhood supporters for Morsi.)


3 Muslims shot by the way

These are the photos that Fox wont be showing and the story they wont be covering today :wink:
I wonder how the FOX catholic priest would spin this one!

BUT can you imagine the headlines IF one of these christian tribesmen gets his house burned down in revenge..........

http://i50.tinypic.com/2wp8l6w.jpg

Sultan
06-01-2012, 07:01 AM
Wingrider

you suddenly gone quiet

No comments to make?

Sultan
06-01-2012, 08:04 AM
Israel Mubarak and Shafik are the 11th and 12th and 13th plagues of Egypt!

wingrider
06-01-2012, 08:11 AM
Wingrider

you suddenly gone quiet

No comments to make?

plenty of comments but I was offline for a while getting some work done,,

Frogger
06-01-2012, 08:16 AM
Sorry, Sultan but you can insult FOX News all you want but it doesn't change the truth of what is happening not only in Egypt but in much of the Muslim world, Christians are being targeted and killed bhy Muslims. It is happening in Egypt, Indonesia, Sudan, Mali, and other Muslim countries. Radical Islam is a scourge and should be wiped from the face of the earth.

wingrider
06-01-2012, 08:19 AM
Sorry, Sultan but you can insult FOX News all you want but it doesn't change the truth of what is happening not only in Egypt but in much of the Muslim world, Christians are being targeted and killed bhy Muslims. It is happening in Egypt, Indonesia, Sudan, Mali, and other Muslim countries. Radical Islam is a scourge and should be wiped from the face of the earth.
what you are saying is falling on deaf ears and blind eyes.. I have figured out that you cannot converse with anyone that is ocked into a belief system that is radically opposed to yours

MMC
06-01-2012, 08:35 AM
correction

Saudi Wahabis

What of the Sunni inside Syria....they are not Saudi are they?

MMC
06-01-2012, 08:47 AM
We in the middle east and Africa are fighting your countries huge media campaign but luckily they use Fox as the main source of mis information for you over there. Fox is very easy to expose in their lies to American public.

Try again.....one Conservative Media Station over the rest of the Liberal Media. I doubt highly Fox is used as the main media source. Would you have a link to showing Fox is the main Source?

Sultan
06-01-2012, 08:56 AM
Sorry, Sultan but you can insult FOX News all you want but it doesn't change the truth of what is happening not only in Egypt but in much of the Muslim world, Christians are being targeted and killed bhy Muslims. It is happening in Egypt, Indonesia, Sudan, Mali, and other Muslim countries. Radical Islam is a scourge and should be wiped from the face of the earth.

I just exposed Fox news lies in that video.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 08:57 AM
what you are saying is falling on deaf ears and blind eyes.. I have figured out that you cannot converse with anyone that is ocked into a belief system that is radically opposed to yours

so you disagree with what I said about the Fox video then?

Sultan
06-01-2012, 08:58 AM
What of the Sunni inside Syria....they are not Saudi are they?

what are you talking about?

Sultan
06-01-2012, 08:59 AM
Try again.....one Conservative Media Station over the rest of the Liberal Media. I doubt highly Fox is used as the main media source. Would you have a link to showing Fox is the main Source?

Its the one you chose.

Okay find me some videos in your liberal media then

It's very telling though that you did not address a single issue I posted about the video !

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:01 AM
Taking bets now in Egypt.

Whats the odds that Mubarak will fall into one of his 'comas' tonight and the verdict is postponed or will they drag him out of the A&E room anyway like they did Michael Jackson?

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:08 AM
What are the charges against Mubarak? Mubarak is charged with complicity in the murder and attempted murder of hundreds of peaceful demonstrators protesting his rule in Cairo, Alexandria, Suez, and several other Egyptian governorates between January 25 and January 31, 2011, under Articles 40(2), 45, 230, 231, and 235 of the Egyptian Penal Code. Although there were further injuries and deaths in the continuing protests against Mubarak’s rule after January 31 and prior to his departure, the charges only concern events though January 31.
Article 40(2) establishes criminal liability for any person who agrees with another to commit a crime that takes place on the basis of such agreement. Article 45 defines “attempt” as the beginning of carrying out an act with the intent to commit a crime. Articles 230 and 231 provide that the death penalty is the punishment for premeditated murder. Article 235 specifies that the accomplices to premeditated murder shall be sentenced to death or life in prison.That said, it should be noted that Penal Code article 17 givesthe court discretion to substitute a prison sentence for a death sentence and a lesser sentence for a sentence of life in prison.
Mubarak is also charged with accepting a bribe from Hussein Salem, a resort developer who is his co-defendant, to exploit his influence and facilitate land concessions in Sharm al-Shaikh for a golf and tourism investment company Salem owns (see below).
The referral order charging Mubarak does not specify the Penal Code articles relevant to the bribery charge. Instead, the order clusters together all the Penal Code articles relevant to a range of corruption charges against Mubarak, his sons, and Salem—leaving uncertain which legal provisions apply to which defendants. The bribery charge against Mubarak appears to involve articles 103, 104, and 106 bis, which criminalize a public employee’s demand or acceptance of a bribe to perform, or cease to perform, an act within the scope of his responsibility or to use his actual or alleged influence to secure a license, concession, or benefit from a public authority.
In addition, Mubarak is charged with being an accomplice to the former petroleum minister, Sameh Fahmy, in improperly authorizing another Salem-controlled company, the East Mediterranean Gas Company, to export Egyptian natural gas to Israel for prices lower than those in the international markets, granting an illicit benefit to Salem’s company and harming public coffers. This charge appears to involve Penal Code articles 40(2) and 40(3), which establish criminal liability for agreeing with another to commit a crime or to intentionally provide assistance to another to commit the crime, as well as article 116 bis, which prohibits any public employee from intentionally harming the funds and interests of a public authority.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:08 AM
What is the significance of the trial? This is the first trial of a former Arab head of state in an ordinary court of law in which the defendant has personally appeared in court since waves of street protests hit the Arab world in December 2010. (Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali of Tunisia was tried in absentia in late 2011; Saddam Hussein of Iraq was tried before a special tribunal in 2005 and 2006.) Mubarak’s trial has the potential to set a meaningful regional precedent for accountability for human rights abuses and for upholding international fair trial standards.
This trial is also unprecedented in terms of potentially holding Interior Ministry officials accountable for human rights crimes. During Mubarak’s era, senior and mid-level Interior Ministry officials, in particular the State Security Investigations (“SSI”) department, responsible for monitoring political dissidents, were immune from prosecution for human rights crimes, including systematic torture. The SSI became notorious in the past decade for engaging in enforced disappearances, detaining suspects in unlawful facilities, and denying detainees contact with lawyers, family, or doctors.
In addition, the trial presents an important opportunity to create a record of the events between January 25 and 31, 2011, the deaths and injuries of protesters in that period, and the discussions and decisions at the top echelon of Egypt's leadership.
However, because the human rights violations the trial addresses are limited to January 25 to 31, this trial alone cannot fulfill Egypt’s need for a comprehensive transitional justice process. Such a process should include credible and impartial investigations and prosecutions for systematic human rights abuses over Mubarak’s nearly 30-year rule.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:09 AM
Why are Mubarak and other high-ranking former government members being tried in ordinary civilian courts while political activists are being tried in military courts? Since the Egyptian military deployed across Egypt amid escalating protests on January 28, 2011, more than 12,000 civilians have been prosecuted before military courts that do not satisfy basic due process guarantees or respect the rights of defendants to be represented by counsel of their choosing and to have an adequate opportunity to prepare their defense. Military judges are officers subject to a chain of command, and military courts over which they preside therefore do not satisfy the requirements of impartiality and independence of judicial tribunals.
The trial of Mubarak and his co-defendants before an ordinary criminal court subject to ordinary criminal law and procedures stands in stark contrast to the expeditious trial of thousands of civilians (including political activists, dissidents, protesters, and even children (http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/03/27/egypt-children-trial)) by military courts with few due process guarantees. Themore than 12,000civilians prosecuted before military courts in Egypt since January 2011 exceeds the total number of civilians tried before military courts during Mubarak’s 30-year rule (http://www.hrw.org/news/2011/09/10/egypt-retry-or-free-12000-after-unfair-military-trials). Human Rights Watch opposes military trials of civilians and has been advocating the re-trial or release of all civilians convicted by military courts in Egypt. Not only have these military trials undermined Egypt’s transition to democratic rule, but the contrast between the expeditious military trials of civilians and the lengthy trials of Mubarak and many of his former ministers in ordinary courts highlights the military-led government’s inconsistent approach to the rule of law.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:09 AM
Who else is charged with Mubarak in this trial and what are the charges against them? Former Interior Minister Habib al-Adly and four of his top-ranking aides face similar charges concerning the murder and attempted murder of protesters killed and injured between January 25 and 31, 2011. These aides are: Ahmed Ramzy, former head of the Central Security Forces; Adly Fayed, former director of General Security; Hassan Abd al-Rahman, former head of SSI; and Ismail al-Shaer, former director of security for Cairo. Unlike the referral order charging Mubarak, the referral order charging al-Adly and his aides references the entirety of article 40 of the Penal Code. Mubarak is charged with complicity in the murder and attempted murder of protesters under article 40(2), which criminalizes only complicity through agreement with another to commit a crime. The rest of article 40 sets forth additional avenues for establishing criminal liability for accomplices—namely if a person instigates another (article 40(1)) or provides assistance to another (article 40(3)) to commit a crime, leaving the door open to establishing their complicity by instigation of, agreement with, or provision of assistance to another person to commit a crime.
In addition, al-Adly, his aides (except Ramzy), and two other Interior Ministry officials, Osama al-Marassy and Omar Faramawy, who were directors of security for the Greater Cairo governorates of Giza and 6th October respectively, face charges under article 116 bis (a) relating to damage caused to public and private property and Egypt’s economic status as a result of their failure to anticipate the January 25 protests and secure the property during these protests.
Both of Mubarak’s sons, Alaa and Gamal Mubarak, are being tried in the same proceeding, charged with accepting a bribe from Salem to use their father’s influence improperly. Together with the elder Mubarak, and pursuant to article 106 bis, the sons are alleged to have accepted five villas in Sharm al-Shaikh from Salem in return for Mubarak’s use of his influence as president to allocate large amounts of state-owned land for real estate and tourism projects for Salem’s golf and tourism investment company.
The prosecution also charged Salem under article 107 bis for offering the five Sharm al-Shaikh villas as a bribe to the Mubaraks. Salem, who fled Egypt after the protests began, is being tried in absentia.
Salem has not been charged in this proceeding for his role in the alleged below-market sale of natural gas, even though Hosni Mubarak is on trial for improperly facilitating this sale. Rather, Salem is charged with alleged corruption and squandering of public funds in the natural gas sale in a separate proceeding involving Fahmy, the former petroleum minister,and other Petroleum Ministry officials.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:10 AM
Why are there many different charges against the various defendants? The various charges in this trial concern at least four different factual issues:

(1) The alleged role of Hosni Mubarak, al-Adly, and other high-ranking security officials in the police violence against protesters in public squares between January 25 and January 31, 2011;
(2) The alleged failure of the police to anticipate the protests and their inability to protect public and private property adequately;
(3) Hosni Mubarak’s alleged improper facilitation of a concession to Salem’s East Mediterranean Gas Company to export natural gas at below-market international prices to Israel; and
(4) Hosni, Alaa, and Gamal Mubarak’s alleged acceptance of a bribe from Salem in exchange for Sharm al-Shaikh land grants.
In addition to these factual issues, the exhibits accompanying the referral order contain testimony and investigative materials concerning Hosni Mubarak’s alleged squandering of the funds of the Library of Alexandria and improper receipt of a bar of gold, although these allegations do not feature as charges in the referral order.
The prosecution initially pressed charges against al-Adly and the Interior Ministry officials on March 23, 2011, before Mubarak was even interrogated. Only on April 10, 2011, the day Mubarak made his first public comments after his ouster in a pre-recorded audio tape aired on the Al-Arabiyya television network, did Prosecutor-General Abd al-Maguid Mahmoud publicly announce (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=220839891264610&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&theater#%21/photo.php?fbid=217969578218308&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&permPage=1) that Mubarak and his sons were asked to appear for interrogation. Later in April, the prosecution referred Hussein Salem, Fahmy, and other Petroleum Ministry officials for criminal trial regarding the East Mediterranean Gas Company’s natural gas concession, again without including Mubarak.
The prosecution referred Hosni, Alaa, and Gamal Mubarak for trial on May 24 (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=220839891264610&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&theater#%21/photo.php?fbid=230215513660381&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&permPage=1), three days after a large demonstration in Tahrir Square that called for the trial and conviction of Hosni Mubarak. When the prosecution referred him for trial, the charges included complicity in the murder and attempted murder of protesters between January 25 and 31, involving many of the same factual and legal issues of the case originally brought in March against al-Adly and the Interior Ministry officials. The lawyers for the victims in al-Adly’s case (see below) requested that his case be moved to another venue due to allegations that the presiding judge, Adel Abd al-Salam Gomaa, maintained close ties to Egypt’s security establishment during al-Adly’s ministerial tenure. On July 25, Judge Gomaa announced the court’s decision to transfer the case to the court that was to try Mubarak, to avoid inconsistent judgments.
After the transfer, the lawyers for the victims in al-Adly’s and Mubarak’s cases asked for the consolidation of the two cases due to the similarity of the murder and attempted murder charges and the overlapping evidence relating to these charges. Some lawyers also requested that the corruption charges against Mubarak, his sons, and Salem be tried separately. On August 15, the court presiding over the two cases ruled that it would consolidate the two cases and proceed with one joint trial on all of the charges.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:10 AM
What sentences could the defendants face? Possible sentences for Hosni Mubarak, if found guilty of the charges against him, range from three years in prison to the death penalty.
The charges against al-Adly, Ramzy, Fayed, Abd al-Rahman, and al-Shaer carry sentences ranging from a year in prison to the death penalty. Al-Marassy and Faramawy, the only defendants who were present for trial but have not been detained, face up to 6 years in connection with their failure to secure public and private property during the January 25 protests.
The corruption charges against Alaa and Gamal Mubarak carry potential sentences of up to 3 years.
Article 17 of the Penal Code gives judges the discretion to decree lesser sentences depending on the circumstances of the case, a clemency provision applied in the past to reduce sentences for Interior Ministry officers in cases of excessive use of force and torture.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:11 AM
How did Mubarak come into the custody of the court? Mubarak and his sons left Cairo for Sharm al-Shaikh on February 11, 2011. They lived there until April 13, 2011, when the prosecutor-general ordered (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=220839891264610&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&theater#%21/photo.php?fbid=218654601483139&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&permPage=1) their detention pending investigation on murder and corruption charges. Alaa and Gamal Mubarak were then moved to Cairo’s Tora Prison. The ousted president, who had been admitted the day before to the Sharm al-Shaikh International Hospital at the recommendation of a medical committee formed by the General Prosecution Office, remained hospitalized in Sharm al-Shaikh.
On April 14, the prosecutor-general ordered (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=220839891264610&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&theater#%21/photo.php?fbid=220839891264610&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&permPage=1) the Interior Ministry to take the necessary steps to transfer Mubarak to the Tora Prison hospital. According to the General Prosecution Office, the Interior Ministry replied (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=220839891264610&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&theater#%21/photo.php?fbid=219212564760676&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&permPage=1), in a letter to the prosecutor-general, that the prison hospitals are not adequately equipped to handle medical cases that may require critical or intensive care and recommended that Mubarak be transferred to a military-run hospital. Although the prosecutor-general agreed and ordered (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=220839891264610&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&theater#%21/photo.php?fbid=220839891264610&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&permPage=1) Mubarak’s transfer to a military hospital on April 15, Mubarak remained in the Sharm al-Shaikh hospital.
The prosecutor-general also asked the chief medical forensic examiner to form a team of medical professionals to review Mubarak’s medical condition and the Tora Prison hospital’s ability to accommodate him. The chief medical forensic examiner’s conclusion (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=220839891264610&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&theater#%21/photo.php?fbid=221732737841992&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&permPage=1) was that Mubarak’s condition was sufficiently stable to permit his transfer, but that the Tora Prison hospital needed certain equipment upgrades to accommodate him. The prosecutor-general again ordered Mubarak’s transfer to a military hospital pending equipment upgrades at the Tora Prison hospital. According to the General Prosecution, the Interior Ministry replied (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=220839891264610&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&theater#%21/photo.php?fbid=222237667791499&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&permPage=1) that Mubarak’s medical condition, as described by the chief medical forensic examiner, required constant, sophisticated medical attention that precluded his transfer from a “medical and security standpoint.” On May 31, another medical committee formed by the prosecutor-general concluded (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=220839891264610&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&theater#%21/photo.php?fbid=232158710132728&set=a.207349462613653.64267.207331035948829&type=1&permPage=1) that Mubarak suffered from depression, recurring bouts of atrial fibrillation, and some momentary losses of consciousness. The committee recommended that Mubarak not be transferred until his medical condition improved.
Mubarak remained at the Sharm al-Shaikh International Hospital until his trial began. On August 3, Mubarak was flown to Cairo for the first hearing of his trial after Amr Helmy, then Minister of Health, announced that his condition allowed his transfer to the trial at the Police Academy on the outskirts of Cairo. Since then, Mubarak has been detained in the International Medical Center, a military-run hospital east of Cairo.
On February 15, a delegation of the Health Committee of Egypt’s newly elected Parliament visited the Tora Prison hospital to look into its ability to accommodate Mubarak. The committee’s official report concluded that Tora Prison hospital was fit to accommodate medical cases requiring emergency and critical care, that the Interior Ministry should immediately equip the hospital with a ventilator and a device to monitor arterial blood gases, and that Mansour al-Essawy, the interior minister when the issue of equipment upgrades was first raised, should be charged with complacency and collusion for failing to complete the upgrades. During the last hearing of Mubarak’s trial, on February 22, the prosecution presented the parliamentary recommendations to the court and the court nonetheless approved Mubarak’s continued detention in the International Medical Center.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:11 AM
Did Hosni Mubarak select his counsel? Yes. Mubarak and his two sons are represented by Farid al-Dib, a prominent criminal defense counsel in Egypt, whom they selected.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:12 AM
Can victims participate in the trial? Under Egyptian law, crime victims may intervene in criminal proceedings to assert civil claims for damages against defendants. As the victims are civil parties to the proceedings, their lawyers may question witnesses for both the prosecution and the defense, and may request additional witnesses, under articles 271 and 272 of Egypt’s Law of Criminal Procedure. Article 288 of this law also permits civil parties to be heard as witnesses. Civil party lawyers have the right to present arguments to the court orally and in writing.
Many victims of the crimes for which Mubarak and his co-defendants are being tried have asserted civil claims against the defendants and act as civil parties to this criminal proceeding. The Front to Defend Egyptian Protesters, a coalition of human rights lawyers from 34 organizations, represents many civil parties in the Mubarak trial (both those injured and families of those killed during the protests).

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:12 AM
What were the main stages of this trial? How many hearings took place? The trial of Hosni Mubarak started on August 3, 2011 before a panel of three judges of the North Cairo Criminal Court: Judge Ahmed Refaat (the presiding judge) and Judges Mohamed Assem and Hani Borham.
The trial of al-Adly and the other Interior Ministry officials started on April 26, 2011 in a proceeding over which Judge Adel Abd al-Salam Gomaa of the New Cairo Criminal Court presided. Certain civil party lawyers requested the disqualification of Judge Gomaa and the transfer of al-Adly’s case to a different court, alleging that Judge Gomaa was known to have been close to Egypt’s security establishment in al-Adly’s time and to have imposed harsh sentences on Mubarak’s political opponents. On July 25, Judge Gomaa ordered the transfer of al-Adly’s case to the court set to try Mubarak’s case, due to the similarity of charges and prosecutorial evidence as well as to avoid inconsistent judgments. Civil party lawyers in both cases moved to consolidate the two cases now before Judge Refaat’s court.
On August 15, Judge Refaat ruled that the two cases would be consolidated and jointly tried before him. Although civil party lawyers in Mubarak’s case also requested that the corruption charges concerning Hosni Mubarak, his sons, and Salem be tried separately from the murder and attempted murder charges, Judge Refaat moved ahead with a joint trial on the combined charges.
Between August 15 and September 24, the court heard the testimony of 13 witnesses. The court also dedicated two hearings to the prosecution’s introduction of physical evidence. The trial came to a halt on September 24 when one of the civil parties moved to disqualify Judge Refaat from the case. The civil party contended that Judge Refaat was biased because his brother, once the editor-in-chief the weekly state-controlled magazine Al-Ahram Al-Iqtissadi, had allegedly written pro-Mubarak articles and had deep ties to Mubarak’s government, including having been appointed by presidential decree to serve with Salem on a Civil Aviation Ministry committee to oversee pricing of civil aviation services. The disqualification motion also alleged that Judge Refaat was involved in investigating two judges who had spoken out against the government’s rigging of parliamentary elections in 2005 and that he gave preferential treatment to defense counsel over counsel to civil parties during Mubarak’s trial. The Cairo Appeals Court assigned to decide this motion rejected it in early December, finding that the lawyer moving for disqualification had not presented facts sufficient to support disqualification under Egyptian law.
The joint trial resumed on December 28. On that date and January 2, the court entertained motions submitted by defense counsel to hear additional witnesses, including the security heads of Cairo’s various districts and Egypt’s governorates during the January 25 protests, and to access documents relating to the exact locations where victims were killed or injured. Lawyers for certain civil parties also asked to hear the previously scheduled testimony of the chief of staff of the Egyptian Armed Forces, General Sami Anan, and to present additional witnesses, such as the physician heading the field hospital at Tahrir Square during the January 25 protests. At the end of the January 2 hearing, Judge Refaat abruptly announced that the court would hear closing arguments the following day, despite these pending requests. Mubarak’s counsel, Farid al-Dib, agreed to withdraw all of his pending requests concerning additional witnesses and documents, indicating his readiness to start closing arguments. But other defense counsel, including lawyers for al-Adly, Ramzy, and al-Shaer, declined to withdraw their requests. In their subsequent closing arguments, they emphasized that they had not withdrawn their requests, highlighting the names of witnesses they wished to present and the documents they had not been able to obtain.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:13 AM
What is the current status of the trial?When is the court expected to issue a verdict? Between January 3 and February 16, the court heard closing arguments by the prosecution, the civil parties, and all of the defendants except for Salem, who is not entitled to this type of representation under Egyptian law since he is being tried in absentia. The prosecution and civil parties presented their rebuttals on February 20. On February 22, after hearing the rebuttals of defense counsel and defendants, Judge Refaat officially closed the trial, took the matter under advisement and set a hearing to issue the court’s verdict on June 2. However, the court has considerable discretion to postpone issuing its verdict.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:13 AM
How were victims and the general public able to follow courtroom developments? The first two hearings in Hosni Mubarak’s trial, on August 3 and August 15, were broadcast live on Egyptian state television. At the conclusion of the second hearing, the presiding judge ordered an end to live television coverage because subsequent hearings would involve the presentation of witnesses. Those hearings were open to the accredited press and lawyers admitted to the Egyptian Bar Association.
On September 7, Judge Refaat closed to the public and media the hearings at which Field Marshall Hussein Tantawy, the head of Egypt’s ruling Military Council; former chief of the General Intelligence Service Omar Suleiman; former Interior Minister Mahmoud Wagdy; and Mansour al-Essawy, then the interior minister, testified. The court imposed a ban on publishing any details of those hearings on national security grounds. The court also scheduled the testimony of General Anan, the armed forces chief of staff, to take place in a closed hearing, but the court suspended that hearing due to the pending motion to disqualify Judge Refaat presented the day before.
Despite the ban on publication of details of the hearings, purported excerpts of the testimony of these high-level officials surfaced on social media such as Facebook and Twitter. In addition, prosecution and defense counsel publicly referenced certain statements from these testimonies in their closing arguments.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:13 AM
Does Human Rights Watch have a position on the cage that holds defendants during the courtroom proceedings? All criminal defendants have the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Holding criminal defendants in a courtroom cage undermines the presumption of innocence as it portrays them as dangerous criminals. This practice, however, is typical in Egyptian criminal courtrooms.
Courtroom security measures may be justified in cases in which defendants present a substantial risk to the safety of the court, those present, and the court proceedings, but the use of handcuffs or other less extreme measures are generally an appropriate alternative.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:14 AM
What is to happen after the verdict is issued? The Egyptian government has not indicated whether or how it plans to respond to a verdict in Mubarak’s case. Whether the case ends in acquittal or conviction, there may be protracted appeals. The government could also face significant political pressure and public demonstrations if Mubarak is acquitted. In addition, the prosecutor-general has not clarified whether Mubarak and his sons are still suspects in other human rights or corruption investigations and/or whether the prosecution intends to refer them to criminal court for such additional charges.
If Mubarak is convicted, it is unclear how or where he would serve his sentence, given the uncertainty about his health and the ability of prison hospitals to accommodate him. The government has also not publicly addressed the prospect of enforcing the death penalty for Mubarak.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:15 AM
What about others implicated in crimes surrounding the January 25 protests? Will there be other trials? The prosecution has referred to trial at least 20 criminal cases involving more than 30 Interior Ministry officers charged with causing the injury and deaths of peaceful protesters around the country. Most cases involve violence against protesters during the January 25 protests in the vicinity of police stations that were reportedly surrounded by demonstrators, and many have concluded in acquittals. As a general matter, security officers are presumed to have a stronger case for a defensive use of force in the vicinity of police stations than in public squares.
In addition, 25 defendants, including the former speakers of both houses of Parliament, Fathi Surour and Safwat al-Sharif, former Labor Minister Aisha Abd al-Hadi, and high-ranking members of the former ruling party are facing trial for conspiracy to commit murder and attempted murder of protesters in Tahrir Square on February 2 and February 3, 2011 during the so-called Battle of the Camel, in which they allegedly recruited thugs—some mounted on camels and horses—to attack protesters.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:15 AM
What about other crimes committed during Mubarak’s 30-year rule? Various investigations and trials have begun against former government officials for corruption and squandering public funds. A number of Mubarak-era cabinet ministers, including former Prime Minister Ahmed Nazif, former Information Minister Anas al-Fiqi, former Trade Minister Rashid Mohamed Rashid, and former Treasury Minister Youssef Boutros-Ghali, have been found guilty of corruption and sentenced to prison (the latter two in absentia). Al-Adly, Mubarak’s interior minister for 13 years, has been convicted in a separate trial of corruption and money-laundering and sentenced to 12 years in prison. He is also charged in a third trial for allegedly abusing his influence and harming public coffers by forcibly employing members of Egypt’s security forces for his personal benefit.
There has been no serious effort, however, to investigate and hold accountable officials for deaths in custody, unlawful detention, torture, and other systematic human rights abuses during the Mubarak era. This lack of investigation into and accountability for past human rights abuses compromises the current government’s reputation and sheds doubt on its commitment to uphold Egypt’s human rights obligations and the rule of law. Egyptian human rights organizations have repeatedly called for the reform of the country’s General Prosecution Office and the replacement of Prosecutor-General Abd al-Maguid Mahmoud, who was initially appointed to the post by Mubarak. There has been no response to such calls.

Sultan
06-01-2012, 09:19 AM
This information should be useful to those who ask about Islamic Sharia and Egyptian Law

We use French System in criminal cases with Islamic Sharia in parts like compensations etc.

Our Constitution says Islamic Sharia is the main source of legislation.

Islamic Sharia steps in where the French System does not account for certain rights Muslims are granted.

If it is a Christian then he is tried under French Law only unless his Christian law specfies something special but I am not sure if they have anything special. Islamic Sharia does not apply to Christians only Muslims in Egypt.
The Gulf and Pakistan and Afghanistan etc are different

MMC
06-01-2012, 09:39 AM
what are you talking about?

I am talking about the Sunni Arabs in Syria.....again they are not Saudi, are they?

MMC
06-01-2012, 09:44 AM
Its the one you chose.

Okay find me some videos in your liberal media then

It's very telling though that you did not address a single issue I posted about the video !


No I didnt choose it.....WR did but there are countless others. Nor am I that naieve to believe that the Only Conservative Media outlet is responsible for what you claim is all the confusion in Egypt and the ME.

I am quite sure you familiar with CNN.....are you not? I would think that you know who Anderson Cooper is. Since he has been in Egypt how mnay times over the past 20 years?

You familiar with the BBC.....they have some videos up to. Have you even checked the MSDNC sites for their video coverage?

Sultan
06-01-2012, 10:21 AM
I am talking about the Sunni Arabs in Syria.....again they are not Saudi, are they?

you lost me

what about the sunni Syrians?

I was talking about the Wahabis

do you know the difference?

Sultan
06-01-2012, 10:23 AM
No I didnt choose it.....WR did but there are countless others. Nor am I that naieve to believe that the Only Conservative Media outlet is responsible for what you claim is all the confusion in Egypt and the ME.

I am quite sure you familiar with CNN.....are you not? I would think that you know who Anderson Cooper is. Since he has been in Egypt how mnay times over the past 20 years?

You familiar with the BBC.....they have some videos up to. Have you even checked the MSDNC sites for their video coverage?

I watch CNN and know Anderson Cooper. I also watch BBC World each night too.

What about them?

What videos? show me the links and I will reply

Sultan
06-01-2012, 10:32 AM
What I'm really intersted in though is videos of these Christians slaughters which must be caught on camera surely in Minya or Sohag or Assyut.

Just one link will do thanks

MMC
06-01-2012, 10:47 AM
I watch CNN and know Anderson Cooper. I also watch BBC World each night too.

What about them?

What videos? show me the links and I will reply

Okay you will have to give me some time.....as I have things going in other threads too. It's not like they are hard to look up on U-Tube as a FYI. Or even their own Stations.

I think Cooper was over there when the Egyptians began Attacking Foreign Women Journalists.

MMC
06-01-2012, 12:24 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IHRS3o8R94&feature=results_video&playnext =1&list=PL22C8CDA780907A1D

:wink:

MMC
06-01-2012, 12:25 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAvtZBtyMpk&feature=results_main&playnext= 1&list=PL22C8CDA780907A1D

MMC
06-01-2012, 12:32 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_7bCPpE0u4

Like I said there are plenty of Liberal MS Media Stories all over the place about what is going down in Egypt. So your shout out about Fox disseminating the truth. Well.....despite the facts. You are Entitled to your own opinion. :rollseyes:

Sultan
06-02-2012, 04:12 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7IHRS3o8R94&feature=results_video&playnext =1&list=PL22C8CDA780907A1D

:wink:

This one does not support what you say at all that Muslims are killing Christians.
Would never stand up in a court of law.

This is Maspero where Muslims and Christians were protesting outside state TV building.
Clashes erupted earlier in the day and I have friends who were involved as they were drivers in cars trying to get home and to work where both sides stopped traffic and blocked the Corniche a very busy road in Cairo. Drivers fought with both sides. Later the state TV announced live on TV that the 'Christians were attacking the army' ( which by the way is both Christian and Muslim just so you realise) State TV called on Muslims to go to Maspero to support the army. What happened next was the lower classes in places like Imbaba etc who are easily led went in a few goups and attacked the Muslims and the Christians there. A riot broke out and because the army was ordered not to attack protesters they withdrew and as they tried to leave they were as you see in the video protesters were attacking them and in the chaos many were hit by the fleeing army vehicles. Because the Christians were the majority attacking the army and close to them physically they were the ones who were hit and run over by the vehicles as the army tried to leave as they had been instructed to.

State TV later admitted responsibility in broadcasting the false information. I am not sure which officials were charged or their names. But the rest I do know because I was getting calls and texts about it from witnesses at Maspero and the Corniche during it.

Sultan
06-02-2012, 04:39 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAvtZBtyMpk&feature=results_main&playnext= 1&list=PL22C8CDA780907A1D

Not really an unbiased source from Coptic site but I will reply.

1.37 minutes.
He is saying that Copts elected the president.

Those same Copts are electing Shafik as thie next president.

Now you have to ask yourself this.

If this bishop is saying how bad life is under Mubarak and all his laws and his state security arresting Christian women praying in houses etc etc etc etc etc.

Why in the name of Allah would they now be chosing to elect his last PM?

Does that make any sense to you at all?

30 years they say of persecution under Mubarak and his interior ministry and government.

Churches burned and Christian killed and Mubarak is arresting these Christians.

Seriously is that making any sense to you at all?

Let me tell you something which is well known.

Mubarak used sectarian conflicts and orchestrated them when there was any political unrest in the country. Thats a known fact. You just have to look not so far back to New Years night 2010/2011 in Alexandria where his interior ministry set off a bomb in the midde of a road, a very tight small road right outside a mosque and church. The media will of course show you video of the church and say it was the church that was the target and never show the mosque exactly across from it where the Muslim bead seller was sitting who was killed in the explosion! They are no more than 5 metres apart!. That was a clear intent to cause the usual chaos and fighting and it worked as it always does in Mubaraks favour because that happened exactly before 25th Revolution in January when Mubarak was under huge pressure by the people to stop his son Gamal taking power! He and his mafia knew that Egypt was erupting and had to find some way to divert attention from himself as he always did but instead of the usual location like the poor illiterate peasants in the Minya and Assyut and Sohag villages he usually targets where it is very easy to set families against each other he needed something bigger and for the first time he had to change tactics and use a city location. Alexandria which had never been done before. Egypts second biggest city.

His plan failed however as just days after the initial riots he orchestrated the Muslims from the mosque and the Chrisitans from the Church in that street united as one against him knowing what his history was. I guess the media where you live would not be covering that, why would they...........
Here however independant media were covering it and it was all just days before the revolution and one of the reasons why we had to rid oursleves of him and his regime.

This is the flag that Muslims and Chritians raised just days after Mubaraks attempt of divide and distract. It flies between the mosque and the church in that street and shows what your media does not show the distance between them in that small street where the Muslim man also died who was seliing beads outside the mosque.

Will you find this on FOX. I doubt it.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GjIPkLCT99A/0.jpg


Where the car with explosives was placed.
The photo though in Western media shows only the Church. If the photographer was unbiased he would have taken a different angle and you would see as in the photo above the mosque was the same distance from the car on opposite side of the road.

http://thegreatone22.files.wordpress.com/2010/12/car.jpg?w=600

Sultan
06-02-2012, 05:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_7bCPpE0u4

Like I said there are plenty of Liberal MS Media Stories all over the place about what is going down in Egypt. So your shout out about Fox disseminating the truth. Well.....despite the facts. You are Entitled to your own opinion. :rollseyes:

Yes all public buildings in Egypt require planning permission. It's the law.
Egypt is majority Muslim with thousands of Mosques.
Christians make up minority however.

Most mosques are quite small compared to Churches.

If you were ever in Egypt you would see mosques everywhere thats because we pray 5 times a day. In fact if you ever came to Egypt you would also see millions Muslims praying on mats in the streets and outside shops and in malls at prayer times. That tells you that Muslims do not actually have enough mosques to pray in.

For example where I live there is a mosque which is smallish. Thats the compound mosque where we go to pray.
BUT every evening just as the sun is setting on the highway outisde my compound around maybe 5-10 buses or trucks will stop outside my compound on the grassy area outside and pray on the grass. This happens every night. If there were enough mosques they would use them...... yes?

Christians only pray on a Sunday here.
Thats a bit different to us.

Instead they have huge churches. In fact they are what you might call cathedrals as they are so huge. Christians do not have to pray on the streets or malls like us if there is no mosque. You will not see Christians praying on mats on the sand like us.

Let me also give you some personal information too.

Where my parents live there is a huge cathedral. One of the biggest with huge area of land surrounding it which leads right down to the Nile in Cairo. It has it's own landing station for any Christians coming from other side of Nile. It has a very large piece of land surrounding it which grows vegetables and fruit trees. I as a child would climb its walls to see what was inside as it is closed all week to open only on Sundays. It is huge and if you know Notre dame in Paris it is maybe half that size. Where I used to live is small Christian population. Most are Muslims. They all live together no problems at all because they are from lower Egypt, Cairo not village peasants who are more tribal. I cannot give you the location because then it would be very easy then to know who I am.

When the Christians wanted to build a church for their followers in that area where I grew up as a child and where my parents still live and grandfather still live.
Guess who was the person who they went to to get the land?

You might be surprised to know that it was my grandfather. A Muslim.

He owned a lot of land at that time more than he does now as some is sold.

My grandfather was the one who sold them that huge area of land so they could build their cathedral. A Muslim man.

He was the one who sold off pockets to Muslims and Christians who live there now in their villas opposite the cathedral. There is also a much smaller mosque not far up the road and round a bend a few minutes walk from the Cathedral. I would say that there were more Muslims in that area than Christians YET their cathedral is bigger and that area has only two small mosques.

How can you explain how Muslims hate Christians and are killing them and persecuting them when my own grandfather and parents Muslims have Christian neighbours and friends and who attend a cathedral my own grandfather sold to the church so they could build a cathderal and villas?

The fact is you have no idea 'what is going down in Egypt' you dont live here. If you did then maybe we could debate but you dont so you have no clue the reality or the history.

Sultan
06-02-2012, 05:10 AM
This is the angle FOX will not be showing of the Alexandria car bombs.

This shows the mosque opposite the church where the bead seller was sitting and was killed at the door outside.

Closer to the mosque wouldn't you say ?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QfVWU-2pVL4/TSB78D8Vj7I/AAAAAAAAQIQ/0KyGFWKaqeg/s1600/Egyptian+soldiers+surround+the+site+of+an+explosio n+in+front+of+a+mosque+in+Alexandria%2C+230+km+%28 140+miles%29+north+of+Cairo+January+1%2C+2011.jpg

Sultan
06-02-2012, 05:12 AM
This is one of those Egyptian churches

more like a cathdral wouldn't you say?

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Travel/Egypt/Aswan/AroundAndAbout/CopticChurchFromNile.jpg

Another more famous one

http://lemarsh.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/p5140772.jpg?w=500



A smaller one out in the desert of Wadi Natrun

You should arrange a visit of them all. Lots of tourists come and visit them scattered all over Egypt.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_QVj1Ll-n6lQ/S-IhfHoywYI/AAAAAAAATiw/M16UJ1BXJ98/s1600/Saint+Bishoy+Monastery+in+Wadi+Natrun,+Egypt+5.jpg

Sultan
06-02-2012, 05:27 AM
Well one thing is guaranteed by today verdict.

The Morsi is going to win for sure.

The country now needs a government which suffered under Mubarak to cleanse all remnants of it for our future.

Sultan
06-02-2012, 05:55 AM
Father of martyr Ahmed Mustafa died today after hearing the verdict

rest in peace :sad:

Be sure if Morsi become president there will be retrial called for.

Sultan
06-02-2012, 05:58 AM
The criminal Mubarak is crying and refusing to get out of helicopter at Tora Prison!

Downtown Cario is filling up with very angry protesters. They are calling for cleansing of felool remnants and Shafik and his gang of thugs and supporters.

Cleansing of the country of the felool and their supporters and aides.

Sultan
06-02-2012, 06:29 AM
Mubarak still refusing to leave helicopter and still crying and general trying to get him out of helicopter to Tora Prison which is luxury compared to the hell he forced the poor to live in in Egypt!

Frogger
06-02-2012, 07:40 AM
This one does not support what you say at all that Muslims are killing Christians.
Would never stand up in a court of law.

Stop being silly, Sultan. No one is saying ALL Muslims are killing Christians. What we are saying is, Muslims are killing Christians at an increased rate.

MMC
06-02-2012, 11:29 AM
Yes all public buildings in Egypt require planning permission. It's the law.
Egypt is majority Muslim with thousands of Mosques.
Christians make up minority however.

Most mosques are quite small compared to Churches.

If you were ever in Egypt you would see mosques everywhere thats because we pray 5 times a day. In fact if you ever came to Egypt you would also see millions Muslims praying on mats in the streets and outside shops and in malls at prayer times. That tells you that Muslims do not actually have enough mosques to pray in.

For example where I live there is a mosque which is smallish. Thats the compound mosque where we go to pray.
BUT every evening just as the sun is setting on the highway outisde my compound around maybe 5-10 buses or trucks will stop outside my compound on the grassy area outside and pray on the grass. This happens every night. If there were enough mosques they would use them...... yes?

Christians only pray on a Sunday here.
Thats a bit different to us.

Instead they have huge churches. In fact they are what you might call cathedrals as they are so huge. Christians do not have to pray on the streets or malls like us if there is no mosque. You will not see Christians praying on mats on the sand like us.

Let me also give you some personal information too.

Where my parents live there is a huge cathedral. One of the biggest with huge area of land surrounding it which leads right down to the Nile in Cairo. It has it's own landing station for any Christians coming from other side of Nile. It has a very large piece of land surrounding it which grows vegetables and fruit trees. I as a child would climb its walls to see what was inside as it is closed all week to open only on Sundays. It is huge and if you know Notre dame in Paris it is maybe half that size. Where I used to live is small Christian population. Most are Muslims. They all live together no problems at all because they are from lower Egypt, Cairo not village peasants who are more tribal. I cannot give you the location because then it would be very easy then to know who I am.

When the Christians wanted to build a church for their followers in that area where I grew up as a child and where my parents still live and grandfather still live.
Guess who was the person who they went to to get the land?

You might be surprised to know that it was my grandfather. A Muslim.

He owned a lot of land at that time more than he does now as some is sold.

My grandfather was the one who sold them that huge area of land so they could build their cathedral. A Muslim man.

He was the one who sold off pockets to Muslims and Christians who live there now in their villas opposite the cathedral. There is also a much smaller mosque not far up the road and round a bend a few minutes walk from the Cathedral. I would say that there were more Muslims in that area than Christians YET their cathedral is bigger and that area has only two small mosques.

How can you explain how Muslims hate Christians and are killing them and persecuting them when my own grandfather and parents Muslims have Christian neighbours and friends and who attend a cathedral my own grandfather sold to the church so they could build a cathderal and villas?

The fact is you have no idea 'what is going down in Egypt' you dont live here. If you did then maybe we could debate but you dont so you have no clue the reality or the history.


Not quite those videos were posted in response to your allegation and denying that the MS LIBERAL Media wasn't reporting anything over in Egypt and that such was all Fox New's Fault. Moreover you can go to MSNBC and CNN's direct sites yourself to pull them out of their site. Any Broadcast about Copitc Christians or any off AC360 of CNN. As well as the BBC's.

Did you forget Sarkosy speech to the UN about the Killing of Christians thru-out the entire Middle East? Why do you think Nicholas Sarkosy would tell the entire UN General Assembley he acquainted such as Genocidal killing thru Religious Endeavors?

Just because you can relate a personal issues between your family and some Christians does not change the facts of what is going on over there. Nor does your one-sided interpretation of events and as to what the US is doing there or much of anywhere else lead to real facts and truths about things.

I don't have to live down there. I also have a couple acquaintences that are Egyptian. One is Military and he knows things you don't even have a clue about. Right there in your own Country. The other was into a certain form of martial arts. Needless to say I trained both. :wink:

moon
06-02-2012, 02:38 PM
Did you forget Sarkosy speech to the UN about the Killing of Christians thru-out the entire Middle East? Why do you think Nicholas Sarkosy would tell the entire UN General Assembley he acquainted such as Genocidal killing thru Religious Endeavors?

Sarkozy was an anti-Islamic bum.


I don't have to live down there. I also have a couple acquaintences that are Egyptian. One is Military and he knows things you don't even have a clue about. Right there in your own Country. The other was into a certain form of martial arts. Needless to say I trained both. :wink:

Trained them to do what ?

wingrider
06-02-2012, 02:44 PM
the one thing I have learned from the contact I have had with internet muslims is the intolerance that seems to rule their lives.

moon
06-02-2012, 03:12 PM
the one thing I have learned from the contact I have had with internet muslims is the intolerance that seems to rule their lives.

You should have kept an open mind to avoid missing so much.

wingrider
06-02-2012, 03:26 PM
that is just it.. I do have an open mind, but intolerance of other races and other cultures seems to be the MO from what I have seen and heard

moon
06-02-2012, 03:31 PM
that is just it.. I do have an open mind, but intolerance of other races and other cultures seems to be the MO from what I have seen and heard
Perhaps you're unaware of the irony of your comment.

wingrider
06-02-2012, 03:39 PM
Lmao..

moon
06-03-2012, 08:10 AM
Islam isn't perfect- although it wants to be. The intended perfection of its teachings must negotiate the weak link of its followers. However, it would be a very simple matter to lampoon christianity as the Faith of Fools and to demonstrate its historical disregard for alternative teachings. What is the point ? We are not watching christians and muslims fighting on the world stage. We are watching the weak versus the weak wearing the mantles of religion. Neither Islam nor christianity approves .

MMC
06-03-2012, 09:18 AM
Sarkozy was an anti-Islamic bum.



Trained them to do what ?


Okay.....Czarkosy is a bum as you say. Not that I care. Other than for the French to quit stirring things up and getting everybody else involved in what they cannot handle on their own. Not to mention quit coming to us for money.

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by MMC http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=82553#post82553)

I don't have to live down there. I also have a couple acquaintences that are Egyptian. One is Military and he knows things you don't even have a clue about. Right there in your own Country. The other was into a certain form of martial arts. Needless to say I trained both. :wink: snip~

Sultan
06-03-2012, 10:27 AM
This is an Italian photographer covering the Mubarak verdict outside the court when the verdict was announced being attacked by a Mubarak supporter, one of the felool supporters, one of those who will be voting for Shafik in 2 weeks.

The photograph shows better than any words I can say and for sure you will not see that being shown on the Western media like Fox!

http://i47.tinypic.com/nnpac5.jpg

Conley
06-03-2012, 10:33 AM
This is an Italian photographer covering the Mubarak verdict outside the court when the verdict was announced being attacked by a Mubarak supporter, one of the felool supporters, one of those who will be voting for Shafik in 2 weeks.

The photograph shows better than any words I can say and for sure you will not see that being shown on the Western media like Fox!

http://i47.tinypic.com/nnpac5.jpg

Where did you get this photo, from an Egyptian source? Is there a story with it? Did anyone help this woman? I would like to know more about what happened...hopefully someone helped her.

Sultan
06-03-2012, 10:42 AM
Is this a bad joke?

The photographer is an Italian man.

The so called woman is the Mubarak supporter!

Sultan
06-03-2012, 10:48 AM
It's by Cairo photographer Amr Dalsh you can e mail him here

amrdalsh@gmail.com

Conley
06-03-2012, 10:51 AM
Is this a bad joke?

The photographer is an Italian man.

The so called woman is the Mubarak supporter!


You didn't mention gender in your post...just an Italian photographer. I can't see the face and thought it was a female.

MMC
06-03-2012, 10:58 AM
You didn't mention gender in your post...just an Italian photographer. I can't see the face and thought it was a female.


Well you are suppose to see the Mubarak Sign written across her forehead. :rollseyes: But hey check out the who is sitting on the ground behind them watching the show. Not to mention that guy in front of them looks real excited too. :laugh:

Sultan
06-03-2012, 10:58 AM
Ah I thought you were joking my mistake ana asif

Part of Judge Rifaat statement


Egyptian Judge Ahmed Rifaat delivered a strongly worded statement Saturday before handing down sentences in Hosni Mubarak’s trial. Here are some excerpts from his statements during sentencing:
—Here was God’s will that inspired the people of Egypt, its brave sons and bold ones, surrounded by God’s angels, demanding … their politicians and rulers and those who sat on the throne of opulence, wealth and power to give them bread and pure water to end their hunger and thirst and to live in a house that shelters their families and the sons of the nation, far from rotten slums.

They were chanting ‘peaceful, peaceful’ with their mouths while their stomachs were empty and their strength was failing. Unable to struggle, they screamed ‘be merciful’ ‘God gives you mercy’ ‘rescue us and pull us from the torture of poverty and humiliation.’
—The peaceful sons of this nation came out from every deep valley, each struggling against injustice, dismay, oppression and humiliation. They headed toward Tahrir Square in Cairo, Egypt’s capital, demanding only justice, freedom and democracy … from those who held a tight grip on them and committed grave sins, tyranny and corruption.........

I cannot find the whole thing.

This small part can tell you a tiny bit of what life under Mubarak was like for so many.

Now we want to know why Shafik supporters want to return us to that regime again........................?

Conley
06-03-2012, 11:17 AM
Thank you.

moon
06-03-2012, 12:29 PM
I don't have to live down there. I also have a couple acquaintences that are Egyptian. One is Military and he knows things you don't even have a clue about. Right there in your own Country. The other was into a certain form of martial arts. Needless to say I trained both. :wink: snip~

Yes, you said- and I asked- ' trained them to do what ' ? Are you hinting that you are some sort of sensei in a school which teaches a form that is so secret that you must not mention it ? Except that you already did ?

Sultan
06-03-2012, 01:03 PM
Yes, you said- and I asked- ' trained them to do what ' ? Are you hinting that you are some sort of sensei in a school which teaches a form that is so secret that you must not mention it ? Except that you already did ?

I have to laugh at this.

Some people dont know that every Egyptian man has to serve in the military but of course we who live here dont know anything about that secret military,
My wifes American friends Egyptian husband is a brigadier retired now.
She of course doesn't know anything either about Egypts military. Neither does he.

strange that

Sultan
06-03-2012, 02:54 PM
well well well the many headed snake finally speaks

:grin:

Mussa does not agree with a presidential council

what a surprise!

http://www.thenational.ae/deployedfiles/Assets/Richmedia/Image/SaxoPress/AD2011040374825-The%20Libyan%20lead.jpg

wingrider
06-03-2012, 02:56 PM
well well well the many headed snake finally speaks

:grin:

Mussa does not agree with a presidential council

what a surprise!

http://www.thenational.ae/deployedfiles/Assets/Richmedia/Image/SaxoPress/AD2011040374825-The Libyan lead.jpg

that is an old photo,, gadaffy is dead,

moon
06-03-2012, 03:03 PM
that is an old photo,, gadaffy is dead,

Murdered, actually. On tv. By Western-backed militia.

Peter1469
06-03-2012, 03:04 PM
I have to laugh at this.

Some people dont know that every Egyptian man has to serve in the military but of course we who live here dont know anything about that secret military,
My wifes American friends Egyptian husband is a brigadier retired now.
She of course doesn't know anything either about Egypts military. Neither does he.

strange that

I know a bit about the Egyptian military, and so long as they are doing D&C they are good. Other than that.....

wingrider
06-03-2012, 03:10 PM
Murdered, actually. On tv. By Western-backed militia.

his treatment of the people had nothing to do with it HUH? you gotta be kidding me.. the man was a murdering lunatic.

moon
06-03-2012, 03:20 PM
his treatment of the people had nothing to do with it HUH? you gotta be kidding me.. the man was a murdering lunatic.
Not according to his supporters. However, the throwbacks which the West have let loose are still slaughtering those.

wingrider
06-03-2012, 03:28 PM
terrible thing about freedom ,, people will die to get it,

moon
06-03-2012, 03:51 PM
terrible thing about freedom ,, people will die to get it,

That's technically suicide. They'll gladly die for freedom's cause- resistance fighters being the prominent example. Your apparent admiration for those ought to extend to the Palestinians. Freedom can't be cherry-picked.

wingrider
06-03-2012, 03:58 PM
sorry no .. there is a difference between freedom fighters and people who lob rockets into civilian populations,

moon
06-03-2012, 04:12 PM
sorry no .. there is a difference between freedom fighters and people who lob rockets into civilian populations,

Israel lobs far more missiles into Palestine than vice versa. Operation Summer Rains fired 3,000 artillery rounds alone. Shouldn't you open the other eye ? Let's take just one incident;


On July 12, the IDF dropped a 550 lb bomb on a building in Gaza City, killing a family of nine. A spokesman for the Israeli army said they were trying to kill a group of Hamas militants led by Mohammed Deif, and did not know that a family was living inside the house when they bombed it.

Do you happen to know the weight of any Palestinian munition ?

wingrider
06-03-2012, 04:21 PM
nope and don't care. Isreal has a right to exist and as long as factions try to annihilate her she will continue to defend herself,, did it ever occur to you tht if you stopped attacking her that maybe PEACE would happen.. Isreal only retaliates when provoked or attacked,,

Sultan
06-03-2012, 04:32 PM
nope and don't care. Isreal has a right to exist and as long as factions try to annihilate her she will continue to defend herself,, did it ever occur to you tht if you stopped attacking her that maybe PEACE would happen.. Isreal only retaliates when provoked or attacked,,

really

USS LIBERTY?

moon
06-03-2012, 04:36 PM
nope and don't care. Isreal has a right to exist and as long as factions try to annihilate her she will continue to defend herself,, did it ever occur to you tht if you stopped attacking her that maybe PEACE would happen.. Isreal only retaliates when provoked or attacked,,

That's a strange claim for invaders. You mean- once the invaders have established a bridgehead you don't think it's fair for the invaded to dislodge them.
Israel has initiated all its wars with the exception of the Yom Kippur War of 1973.

Conley
06-03-2012, 04:40 PM
really

USS LIBERTY?

For those who don't know here is some more background


I didn't realize more about the Israeli attack had been declassified. Pretty amazing stuff, I don't blame this man for being so angry. Good article.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/servic...785,full.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/services/newspaper/eedition/chi-liberty_tuesoct02,0,3794785,full.story)

Bryce Lockwood, Marine staff sergeant, Russian-language expert, recipient of the Silver Star for heroism, ordained Baptist minister, is shouting into the phone.

"I'm angry! I'm seething with anger! Forty years, and I'm seething with anger!"

Lockwood was aboard the USS Liberty, a super-secret spy ship on station in the eastern Mediterranean, when four Israeli fighter jets flew out of the afternoon sun to strafe and bomb the virtually defenseless vessel on June 8, 1967, the fourth day of what would become known as the Six-Day War.

For Lockwood and many other survivors, the anger is mixed with incredulity: that Israel would attack an important ally, then attribute the attack to a case of mistaken identity by Israeli pilots who had confused the U.S. Navy's most distinctive ship with an Egyptian horse-cavalry transport that was half its size and had a dissimilar profile. And they're also incredulous that, for years, their own government would reject their calls for a thorough investigation.

"They tried to lie their way out of it!" Lockwood shouts. "I don't believe that for a minute! You just don't shoot at a ship at sea without identifying it, making sure of your target!"

http://thepoliticalforums.com/threads/411-The-USS-Liberty-Revisited

Sultan
06-03-2012, 04:43 PM
Yes amazing isn't it how the parasite treats its host and only blood supply.....

wingrider
06-03-2012, 05:11 PM
That's a strange claim for invaders. You mean- once the invaders have established a bridgehead you don't think it's fair for the invaded to dislodge them.
Israel has initiated all its wars with the exception of the Yom Kippur War of 1973.

you conveniently forgot about the 67 war where Isreal kicked your backsides and expanded its borders,, why is that?

Sultan
06-03-2012, 05:15 PM
you conveniently forgot about the 67 war where Isreal kicked your backsides and expanded its borders,, why is that?

you conveniently forgot that is was not Israel but Israel big brother Cletus who came to Golda Meir rescue :wink:

wingrider
06-03-2012, 05:30 PM
and in six days no less.. HMM LMAO

moon
06-04-2012, 05:10 AM
you conveniently forgot about the 67 war where Isreal kicked your backsides and expanded its borders,, why is that?

Israel initiated the 1967 war. *Israel didn't ' expand its borders ' as such a concept is unacceptable under international law. * Israel illegally occupies all territories occupied and is required to withdraw.
That's your cue to complain that international law sux and that the Zionists can do exactly as they please to Palestinians on account of what the Germans did to Europe's minorities in the last century. *Oh yeah, great comeback.*

wingrider
06-04-2012, 08:18 AM
ever heard the expression to the victor goes the spoils,,?

Sultan
06-04-2012, 08:23 AM
ever heard the expression to the victor goes the spoils,,?

so much hatred

so much arrogance

so much warmongering

wingrider
06-04-2012, 08:25 AM
you forgot one... so much truth!

moon
06-04-2012, 09:13 AM
ever heard the expression to the victor goes the spoils,,?

Sure, and it was quite apt up until around 1928 and the Kellog-Briand Peace Pact. * Then the rest of the 20th century consolidated international law in that regard with the Nuremberg verdicts until we find ourselves today faced with the impossibility of ever gaining territory by means of war again. * Take a look at the opening of the United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, for example;


......Emphasizing the inadmissibility of the acquisition of territory by war .......

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/un/un242.htm

* *....etc.

Ain't you just thrilled that the Mexicans can't just swarm across and reclaim Texas ?*

wingrider
06-04-2012, 09:33 AM
Sure, and it was quite apt up until around 1928 and the Kellog-Briand Peace Pact. * Then the rest of the 20th century consolidated international law in that regard with the Nuremberg verdicts until we find ourselves today faced with the impossibility of ever gaining territory by means of war again. * Take a look at the opening of the United Nations Security Council Resolution 242, for example;

* *....etc.

Ain't you just thrilled that the Mexicans can't just swarm across and reclaim Texas ?*



I would love to see them try LOL

Sultan
06-09-2012, 02:01 PM
Al Shorouk article on Mubarak funeral arrangements

http://www.shorouknews.com/news/view.aspx?cdate=09062012&id=81d3fdb5-0411-48fa-8a24-6f1c40792420

A look around the burial chamber of Pharaoh Mubarak

Yes our dear Pharoah wanted a tomb like Chefren and Khufu but his is not on the Giza Plateau like theirs but in Heliopolis East Cairo.

While Egypts poor are living in the cemeteries of Old Cairo the regime has spent 15 million of stolen Egyptian pounds to keep his rotting corpse in air conditioned marble splendour with it's telephone connection and sofas ! as he awaits the appointment with Satan himself.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vrmcv0m9R2I&list=PL8EFDE4C171E59102&featur e=player_embedded

Sultan
06-09-2012, 02:12 PM
500,000 poor living in cemeteries in Cairo under Mubarak!

While Mubarak left them to live like this the MB were out feeding them and treating them in clinics for free!

If it were not for the MB I cannot imagine what state Egypt would be in!

http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/photos/000/340/cache/egypt-city-of-the-dead-el-arafa_34051_600x450.jpg

Peter1469
06-09-2012, 03:14 PM
The City of the Dead. I drove passed it once in 1988.

Sultan
06-11-2012, 04:52 AM
Not according to his supporters. However, the throwbacks which the West have let loose are still slaughtering those.

and holding hostage in Zintan foreign ICC officials lets not forget !