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del
12-04-2014, 07:51 PM
On Wednesday, Paul said Garner's death would have been prevented if the law creating New York City's high cigarette taxes -- the highest in the country -- wasn't created."I think it's also important to know that some politician put a tax of $5.85 on a pack of cigarettes," Paul said. "So they've driven cigarettes underground so as not to make them so expensive."

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/politics/rand-paul-eric-garner-taxes/index.html


alrighty then...

Chris
12-04-2014, 07:54 PM
Heard that, and, while it makes sense in terms of economic incentives, it doesn't on a moral level.

Alyosha
12-04-2014, 08:03 PM
He's not incorrect. It's a black market thing. Still I blame the cop...

Chris
12-04-2014, 08:08 PM
Yes, Stupid Laws Help Kill People (http://thefederalist.com/2014/12/04/yes-stupid-laws-help-kill-people/):


...a (slightly) hyperbolic tweet...



If they can kill you over a cigarette tax, why would you trust them to run the internet, regulate your speech and choose your health care?


Since then, I’ve seen numerous tweets discounting this argument as preposterous. It’s something akin to blaming jaywalking for the death of Michael Brown, we’re told. Rand Paul touched on the issue in an interview on msnbc yesterday and was, predictably, ridiculed for it by liberals – because mentioning the circumstances of a violent act is preposterous, apparently.

Though it certainly isn’t close to being the most important lesson of this inexplicable case, it’s not something that should be dismissed so flippantly.

...

Garner was selling singles, incidentally. Does anyone believe that isn’t a waste of time for police and prosecutors? Even if your position is that government has an important role in deciding what you should ingest, cigarette smoking has been dropping for decades around the country. It was dropping before sin taxes. It’s dropping in places there are no sin taxes. Other than inconveniencing poor people, sin taxes offer us nothing. Well, maybe a little tax revenue. A bit of social engineering. And sometimes a death.

Crepitus
12-04-2014, 08:24 PM
I have suspected it for a while now, but this seems to confirm it.


Rand Paul is retarded.

Captain Obvious
12-04-2014, 08:25 PM
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/politics/rand-paul-eric-garner-taxes/index.html


alrighty then...[/FONT]

And tax on condoms cause abortion.

His campaign manager must be a real piece of work.

del
12-04-2014, 08:35 PM
it's hard to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear

Captain Obvious
12-04-2014, 08:36 PM
I have suspected it for a while now, but this seems to confirm it.


Rand Paul is retarded.

He's an establishment candidate as far as I'm concerned.

Peter1469
12-04-2014, 09:42 PM
Rand Paul isn't establishment, although he courts with them. If he didn't he would be like LTC West.

Chris
12-04-2014, 09:46 PM
He's an establishment candidate as far as I'm concerned.

Can a candidate win otherwise? And what does that say of US politics?

Green Arrow
12-04-2014, 10:35 PM
Rand Paul isn't establishment, although he courts with them. If he didn't he would be like LTC West.

West's voting record puts him solidly in the neocon establishment, he's only anti-establishment in rhetoric.

Green Arrow
12-04-2014, 10:38 PM
Look, the guy made a valid point. The whole reason the cops tried to arrest and put the chokehold on Garner is because he was selling cigarettes. Why was he selling cigarettes? Because there was a market for it. Why was there a market for it? Because ridiculously high taxes on cigarettes makes heavy smokers go for black market cigarettes that they can buy tax-free.

Some people have very deep-running biases that unfortunately make them act dumb when they encounter the person or thing they are biased against.

PolWatch
12-04-2014, 10:42 PM
Kinda like taxed tea way back in history? If only the British had a police force like that to defend against law breakers we might all be singing God Save the Queen at soccer matches.

del
12-04-2014, 10:45 PM
Look, the guy made a valid point. The whole reason the cops tried to arrest and put the chokehold on Garner is because he was selling cigarettes. Why was he selling cigarettes? Because there was a market for it. Why was there a market for it? Because ridiculously high taxes on cigarettes makes heavy smokers go for black market cigarettes that they can buy tax-free.

Some people have very deep-running biases that unfortunately make them act dumb when they encounter the person or thing they are biased against.

yes, those deep running biases, for and against, make people act dumb.

there's no doubt in my mind that that is true.

none

Peter1469
12-04-2014, 10:47 PM
West's voting record puts him solidly in the neocon establishment, he's only anti-establishment in rhetoric.

Do you have a citation to that. From what I understand he was gerrymandered out because he refused to play along with the establishment.

Green Arrow
12-04-2014, 10:52 PM
Do you have a citation to that. From what I understand he was gerrymandered out because he refused to play along with the establishment.

I'm on my phone, so no. But I can tell you to go to www.opencongress.org and search for neocon legislation that he voted on, such as the 2012 NDAA and any Patriot Act/FISA reauths.

Peter1469
12-04-2014, 10:58 PM
I'm on my phone, so no. But I can tell you to go to www.opencongress.org (http://www.opencongress.org) and search for neocon legislation that he voted on, such as the 2012 NDAA and any Patriot Act/FISA reauths.

Maybe this weekend. I have to be at work early.

Green Arrow
12-04-2014, 11:03 PM
Maybe this weekend. I have to be at work early.

Oh, well if you gotta wait until this weekend anyway, I'll just put my stuff on him together and post a thread with links to specific bills and statements.

Professor Peabody
12-05-2014, 03:30 AM
Sources told the Daily News there were no signs of neck trauma, such as a crushed windpipe, on the heavyset victim.

“There’s no indication this is death by strangulation or asphyxia,” the source said.

Another source said the likely cause of death will be a heart attack, although other actions — including the illegal takedown of Garner — “will probably go down as contributing factors.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/nypd-chokehold-staten-island-man-eric-garner-stripped-shield-gun-article-1.1873033


Garner had been previously arrested and was out on bail for selling untaxed cigarettes, driving without a license, marijuana possession, and false personation. Garner had a criminal record that includes more than 30 arrests dating back to 1980 on charges such as assault, resisting arrest, grand larceny. An official said the charges include multiple incidents in which he was arrested for selling unlicensed cigarettes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Eric_Garner

Only his family is crying for this creep.

Captain Obvious
12-05-2014, 03:43 AM
Can a candidate win otherwise? And what does that say of US politics?

I don't disagree.

Redrose
12-05-2014, 03:58 AM
He's not incorrect. It's a black market thing. Still I blame the cop...


I suppose DiBlasio's tax increases did create a blackmarket for cigarettes. I heard tonight the supervising officer at the scene was a Black female sergeant. What was she thinking? When he was crying out he couldn't breathe, why didn't she order them to back off?

Also, tonight I learned the cops were not harrassing him out of the blue, a local store owner called the cops to report he was disturbing the local businesses. The cops responded. To me, that offense, selling blackmarket cigarettes should be a citation, not an arrestable offense. But, in this case he would have been arrested anyway because he was on probation. Just a sad, unfortunate case all around.

Mac-7
12-05-2014, 08:11 AM
I heard tonight the supervising officer at the scene was a Black female sergeant.



That is a little known fact that blacks and bleeding heart white libs will ignore.

donttread
12-05-2014, 10:04 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/03/politics/rand-paul-eric-garner-taxes/index.html


alrighty then...[/FONT]

Or it could be a gross over reaction to a minor crime

texan
12-05-2014, 10:38 AM
The only context we have in this case is a few minutes of video where the guy resisted arrest.

Just some questions:

1. Were local business's complaining about this guy selling cigs by their stores? Taking business form them with no store or permit?
2. Had the police told him 10 times for a month to stop doing this because they were getting complaints?
3. Can a guy being "choked" that badly scream that loud I can't breathe? Or did his health catch up to him?
4. I am hearing 60 witnesses chimed in to the DA/Grand Jury.

I just don't know if we have enough information to riot, but that has never stopped anyone from doing it.

Bo-4
12-05-2014, 01:57 PM
Stewart to Rand.. WTF are you talking about! :D

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/05/jon-stewart-chokehold_n_6273864.html?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=Politics

nic34
12-05-2014, 02:01 PM
Look, the guy made a valid point. The whole reason the cops tried to arrest and put the chokehold on Garner is because he was selling cigarettes. Why was he selling cigarettes? Because there was a market for it. Why was there a market for it? Because ridiculously high taxes on cigarettes makes heavy smokers go for black market cigarettes that they can buy tax-free.

Some people have very deep-running biases that unfortunately make them act dumb when they encounter the person or thing they are biased against.

So Garner pays with his life for all this? Did Garner personally pass those taxes?

JFC everyone, chill out..............

Green Arrow
12-05-2014, 02:16 PM
So Garner pays with his life for all this? Did Garner personally pass those taxes?

JFC everyone, chill out..............

Yes, because that's the point :rollseyes:

Yes, Garner does pay for it with his life, I'm sorry to say. That's what happens when you break the law, the police are sent to arrest you. With our police state getting out of control like it is, getting arrested might mean you die.

That leaves us with two possible solutions: change our police protocols or repeal any law that isn't worth someone dying over.

nic34
12-05-2014, 02:29 PM
Yes, because that's the point :rollseyes:

Yes, Garner does pay for it with his life, I'm sorry to say. That's what happens when you break the law, the police are sent to arrest you. With our police state getting out of control like it is, getting arrested might mean you die.

That leaves us with two possible solutions: change our police protocols or repeal any law that isn't worth someone dying over.

With the way cops are today, that's virtually every law....

Professor Peabody
12-05-2014, 02:39 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvATEjsf41g

Break out the stop watches folks. From the time the cop grabbed Garner by the neck till he was on the ground and the cop let go, it was 15 seconds give or take 1 or 2.

Polecat
12-05-2014, 02:41 PM
Taxation of tobacco & alcohol has caused more crime and death then people realize. This guy would not of been hustling cigarettes in NYC if the money wasn't there. But you can bet he would have been doing something else illegal if not that.

PolWatch
12-05-2014, 02:49 PM
Some people are going to justify whatever the police do, no matter what the situation. Rose is always the voice from the police standpoint...but even she has said THIS situation should not have happened...I would think that alone would be enough to make everyone stop & think about what this situation represents! No matter what our politics are, we are all effected by how the police behave. Do we have to wait until its the rich, white people being killed for misdemeanors before we agree that something needs to change?

Professor Peabody
12-05-2014, 02:50 PM
Or it could be a gross over reaction to a minor crime


NYPD No. 3's order to crack down on selling loose cigarettes led to chokehold death of Eric Garner

BY John Marzulli , Rocco Parascandola , Thomas Tracy | NEW YORK DAILY NEWS
Thursday, August 7, 2014, 2:30 AM

An order to crack down on the illegal sale of 75-cent cigarettes in Staten Island came directly from Police Headquarters, setting off a chain of events that ended in Eric Garner’s death, the Daily News has learned.

At around the same time, on March 27, a caller to the city’s 311 hotline complained about the issue, saying a group of men had been selling untaxed cigarettes, and sometimes marijuana, on Bay St. every day for the past three years, a second source said.

The caller identified one of the sellers as “a man named Eric.”

The next day, Garner was arrested for selling untaxed cigarettes, one of three pending cases before his death.

On the afternoon of July 17, cops spotted Garner on Bay St. again. Witnesses said Garner, 43, had just broken up a fight. Cops say the 350-pound father of six was selling untaxed cigarettes.

“Every time you see me you try to arrest me,” Garner told Officer Daniel Pantaleo and a second cop before he was put in the chokehold, according to a video first posted by nydailynews.com. “I’m tired of it. It stops today.”

Cops found him in possession of 23 sealed packs of untaxed cigarettes and one open pack, officials said. He was arrested with untaxed cigarettes again on May 7, officials said.

Then, a week before his death, Garner was “warned and admonished” about selling untaxed cigarettes, a police source said.

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/nyc-crime/wife-man-filmed-chokehold-arrested-article-1.1893790

It was orders from Headquarters. No doubt someone connected with Police Management high up has a store on Staten Island and these guys were cutting into business.

Polecat
12-05-2014, 02:52 PM
Some people are going to justify whatever the police do, no matter what the situation. Rose is always the voice from the police standpoint...but even she has said THIS situation should not have happened...I would think that alone would be enough to make everyone stop & think about what this situation represents! No matter what our politics are, we are all effected by how the police behave. Do we have to wait until its the rich, white people being killed for misdemeanors before we agree that something needs to change?

If they start killing rich white people I will turn a blind eye. Not nice to say but ................

Redrose
12-05-2014, 03:03 PM
The only context we have in this case is a few minutes of video where the guy resisted arrest.

Just some questions:

1. Were local business's complaining about this guy selling cigs by their stores? Taking business form them with no store or permit?
2. Had the police told him 10 times for a month to stop doing this because they were getting complaints?
3. Can a guy being "choked" that badly scream that loud I can't breathe? Or did his health catch up to him?
4. I am hearing 60 witnesses chimed in to the DA/Grand Jury.

I just don't know if we have enough information to riot, but that has never stopped anyone from doing it.


That is why an indictment should have come down. All those facts would have come out in a trial. IMHO I feel he was guilty of at least Involuntary Manslaughter.

Let me make this very clear, I am not condoning that cops behavior, cops have been using restraint techniques for decades, as one retired cop on the news said last night. The nightstick was often used across the throat to restrain someone in order to cuff them. That was an accepted technique. That was discontinued when they went to an asp instead of a nightstick. Taking a big man down with a hold around the neck is also acceptable. Once on the ground zipties can be used if cuffs are too small. In a healthy individual, the arrest would be made with no issues. That victim was very unhealthy which probably complicated things. He wasn't a murderer, he was selling loose cigarettes in a community that cannot afford crazy DiBlasio's taxes. We broke from England for just that reason, excessive taxation.

Now, this is just my own opinion, going after someone for selling loose untaxed cigarettes is insane and a waste of taxpayer money. With all the serious crime to deal with, that is retarded. DiBlasio screwed things up with his excessive taxes on cigarettes beause he nuts, a communist, and too power hungry, too much big brother is watching attitude. Liberal? What a pile of doo doo. Intolerant is more accurate. He hates smoking so he tried to make buying cigarettes cost prohibitive. He drove them underground. The Police Commissioner answers to the Mayor, he is appointed by the Mayor. So the Police Comm. had to channel the Mayor's moronic decree to his department to arrest people selling untaxed ciggies. We need government to back off. Next they'll be arresting people for blackmarket Big Gulps.

Green Arrow
12-05-2014, 03:07 PM
With the way cops are today, that's virtually every law....

Yes, it is. So let's change the protocols.

Cigar
12-05-2014, 03:12 PM
Taxes don't Kill People, People Kill People

It's time we stop making excuses for People who Kill People and make them Accountable for their Authority

Professor Peabody
12-05-2014, 03:18 PM
If they start killing rich white people I will turn a blind eye. Not nice to say but ................


White teen killed by black cop in Alabama mirrors Ferguson

By Valerie Richardson - The Washington Times - Thursday, November 27, 2014

Gilbert Collar (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/gilbert-collar/), a white, unarmed 18-year-old under the influence of drugs was shot and killed Oct. 6, 2012, by Officer Trevis Austin (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/trevis-austin/), who is black, in Mobile (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/mobile/), Alabama. Despite public pressure for an indictment, a Mobile County grand jury refused to bring charges against Officer Austin (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/trevis-austin/), concluding that the officer acted in self-defense.

Critics also note there has been no rioting or sustained protest in Mobile (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/mobile/), even though the slightly built Collar (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/gilbert-collar/), unlike Brown (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/michael-brown/), never touched the officer and, because he was naked when he was shot, was more obviously unarmed.

“Gilbert Collar (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/gilbert-collar/) lost the ability to fully understand his actions and to reason,” says the complaint. “As a result, Gilbert Collar (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/gilbert-collar/) took off his clothes and began running into and out of traffic on the campus of the University of South Alabama.”

“Officer Austin (http://www.washingtontimes.com/topics/trevis-austin/) had ample opportunity to obtain his baton and pepper spray, to holster his weapon and to use his own physical abilities, if necessary, or to prolong the situation and wait for back up to arrive.”

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/27/white-teen-gilbert-collar-killed-by-black-cop-trev/



Collar stands 5'7" and 135 lbs. They were in the Police Station parking lot so back up wouldn't be a problem. Should the Grand Jury have refused to indict?

Cigar
12-05-2014, 03:28 PM
Collar stands 5'7" and 135 lbs. They were in the Police Station parking lot so back up wouldn't be a problem. Should the Grand Jury have refused to indict?


Solution --> Protest ... don't be quiet and except it.

Mac-7
12-05-2014, 04:08 PM
If they start killing rich white people I will turn a blind eye. Not nice to say but ................

Rich white people are too smart to fight with the cops and resist arrest for selling untaxed cigarettes.

Ravens Fan
12-05-2014, 05:10 PM
Rich white people are too smart to fight with the cops and resist arrest for selling untaxed cigarettes.
Don't you mean that they are too rich to have to resort to selling untaxed cigarettes to survive, and too rich to be put in that type of situation to begin with?

Mac-7
12-05-2014, 05:22 PM
Don't you mean that they are too rich to have to resort to selling untaxed cigarettes to survive, and too rich to be put in that type of situation to begin with?

These whites are smart enough to be rich and not fight with the police.

Ravens Fan
12-05-2014, 05:49 PM
These whites are smart enough to be rich and not fight with the police.
Oh, my bad. Here I thought race and intelligence were two separate things. Silly me.

Cigar
12-05-2014, 05:49 PM
SC White Police Chief CHARGED WITH 2011 MURDER Of Unarmed Black Man In Wake Of Ferguson And NYCOn Wednesday, December 3, 2014, more than three years after a white police chief in the small South Carolina town of Eutawville shot and killed an unarmed black man, Prosecutor David Pascoe brought murder charges against the former police officer. While claiming that it was always his intent to charge Richard Combs with murder in connection with the fatal shooting of Bernard Bailey, Pascoe failed to file murder charges until the very day that a New York grand jury failed to indict a white officer for the homicide of another African-American male, and a mere week after the Ferguson grand jury failed to indict Officer Darren Wilson in the shooting death of Michael Brown. After Bailey, a 54 year old retired corrections officer, had argued with the then-Chief Combs about a ticket that Combs had recently issued to Bailey’s daughter, Combs had an obstruction of justice warrant brought against Bailey.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Richard-Combs-with-Attorney-DailyMail-300x176.jpgAn orange jump suit and Bubba is awaiting you...............http://www.democraticunderground.com/emoticons/thumbsup.gif

On May 2, 2011, several days after their initial confrontation, Bailey returned to city hall to complain about his daughter’s ticket. When Combs attempted to arrest Bailey, Bailey left and got into his nearby truck. Undeterred, Combs followed him to his truck, reached inside for the keys and tried to turn off the ignition. During the ensuing struggle, Combs shot Bailey twice in the chest, killing him. Bailey was unarmed. Bailey’s death was initially investigated by the F.B.I. and the Department of Justice as a possible civil rights violation. However, in March 2013 the Justice Department declined to bring charges against Combs. Five months later, in August 2013, South Carolina prosecutors obtained an indictment against Combs for “misconduct in office” relating to the fatal shooting. According to court records, the grand jury found that Combs was not justified in using deadly force when he shot and killed Mr. Bailey. Following the indictment, Combs was terminated by the 300 person town of Eutawville as the police chief of this one-man department. Combs’ trial on the “official misconduct” charges had been set for mid-December 2014. However, in November of this year Combs sought to have the charges dismissed under a “stand your ground” defense, claiming that he was in fear of his life during his encounter with the 6’6” Bailey.

http://www.addictinginfo.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Bailey-photo-smiling-300x211.jpg

South Carolina Judge Ed Dickson denied Combs claim, stating:



“Mr. Combs has failed to establish that he is entitled to claim self-defense as he did not show that he was without fault in bringing about the difficulty.”

Judge Dickson further found that:

“There was no need for Mr. Combs to act as he did on May 2, 2011, when Mr. Bailey refused service, as Mr. Combs expected would happen. … Mr. Combs should have allowed Mr. Bailey to leave and enlisted the assistance of other officers or serve the warrant at court as originally planned.”


http://thetandd.com/news/judge-no-stand-your-ground-defense-in-shooting-ex-eutawville/article_8e06fc66-7b60-11e4-b9a8-1ba299f9a3f8.html




- No one knows what the jury will decide on the charge of murder against Combs for the death of Bernard Bailey, but it is apparent that the word is spreading: it is not okay to shoot down unarmed black men just because you have a gun and a badge.



http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/12/05/sc-white-police-chief-charged-with-2011-murder-of-unarmed-black-man-in-wake-of-ferguson-and-nyc/

Cigar
12-05-2014, 05:50 PM
Oh, my bad. Here I thought race and intelligence were two separate things. Silly me.

He's having a difficult week ... :grin:

Mac-7
12-05-2014, 06:48 PM
Oh, my bad. Here I thought race and intelligence were two separate things. Silly me.

Polecat brought up rich white folk.

Something about waiting for them to get shot down in the street.

I've been explaining how obeying the law lets rich white folk avoid the unpleasantry that Brown and Garner brought on themselves.

Cigar
12-05-2014, 07:06 PM
Polecat brought up rich white folk.

Something about waiting for them to get shot down in the street.

I've been explaining how obeying the law lets rich white folk avoid the unpleasantry that Brown and Garner brought on themselves.

Yea ... it's Alright if you're the right color.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Cliven-Bundy-militia.png

http://crooksandliars.com:8080/files/mediaposters/2014/04/29167.jpg?ts=1397511952

Mac-7
12-05-2014, 07:25 PM
Yea ... it's Alright if you're the right color.

http://www.splcenter.org/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Cliven-Bundy-militia.png

http://crooksandliars.com:8080/files/mediaposters/2014/04/29167.jpg?ts=1397511952

I don't think the Feds believed Bundy was going to overpower them and take their guns away.

Which is only one of the reasons the two situations are apples and oranges.

texan
12-06-2014, 09:41 PM
Stewart to Rand.. WTF are you talking about! :D

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/12/05/jon-stewart-chokehold_n_6273864.html?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=Politics


I like stewert, but so what?

Common
12-06-2014, 09:53 PM
And tax on condoms cause abortion.

His campaign manager must be a real piece of work.

This isnt bad yet, after a few pundits call him a tard he will switch positon