Gorbachev Blames the U.S. for Provoking ‘New Cold War’

[Ethereal]

Exclusive: Gorbachev Blames the U.S. for Provoking ‘New Cold War’ (http://time.com/3630352/mikhail-gorbachev-vladimir-putin-cold-war/)


Simon Shuster @shustry Dec. 11, 2014



"It’s America calling the shots in everything!” the former Soviet leader tells TIME


(TIME) - In the offices of Mikhail Gorbachev, still sharp at 83 and plainspoken as ever, the walls are lined with photos from his travels as the leader of the Soviet Union and, in the years after its demise, as a living icon of the Cold War. One picture shows him with his late wife Raisa standing arm-in-arm with Mickey Mouse and Minnie Mouse. In another frame he wears a cowboy hat and jeans as he stands beside Ronald Reagan, the U.S. President who famously branded Gorbachev’s country an “evil empire” in 1983. These portraits, like many others in his Moscow office, betray Gorbachev’s affection for his former American adversaries.


But in the course of this year those feelings seem to have been subsumed in a rising sense of animosity, as Russia and the West enter what Gorbachev calls a new Cold War. “Are we in the middle of a new Cold War? Indeed we are,” he tells TIME in an interview last month at the Moscow branch of the Gorbachev Foundation, the international advocacy group he founded in 1991, when he was forced to resign from his post as President due to the dissolution of the Soviet Union.


The elder statesman, who was named TIME’s Person of the Year in 1987 and ‘Man of the Decade’ two years later, is not the first to declare the start of a new Cold War this year. Russia’s annexation of Crimea in March has caused officials and pundits around the world to warn that the West’s efforts to isolate Russia have opened a dangerous gulf between them. But the roots of the present standoff run deeper than this spring, says Gorbachev, and the blame for it lies with the Americans.


In the years that followed the Soviet collapse, the West “tried to turn us into some kind of backwater, a province,” he says. “Our nation could not let that pass. It’s not just about pride. It’s about a situation where people speak to you however they want, impose limitations, and so on. It’s America calling the shots in everything!”


For a country whose leaders remember the years when Russia was a superpower, the American dominance of global affairs has always been a taunting reality and a constant source of frustration. Instead of treating Russia as an equal partner, the West tried to “push us out of politics,” says Gorbachev, most recently during the revolution that brought a pro-Western government to power in Ukraine early this year. Vladimir Putin’s reaction to that uprising sought to claw back some of the influence Russia had lost, and for that the Russian President has earned Gorbachev’s admiration.


[...]


The new East-West divide does evoke a sense of foreboding in Gorbachev. In particular Putin’s recent warnings that Russia is a “nuclear power,” and that foreigners would be wise “not to mess with us,” all feel like reminders of the arms race that kept the world on the edge of a catastrophic war as Gorbachev climbed the ladder of the Soviet Communist Party to become its last General Secretary. “People are talking again not only about a new Cold War but a hot one,” he says. “It’s as if a time of great troubles has arrived. The world is roiling.”


But that does not mean that Putin should back down in the face of Western sanctions. The man who pursued reforms at home and peace talks with the West in the late 1980s now feels it must be the Americans who learn a sense of humility toward Russia and stop resisting its rightful role as a global power. “It’s hard to belittle the Russians,” says Gorbachev. “We know our worth.” And if the U.S. does start to seek a new thaw in relations with Russia, he has a fresh bit of advice to offer Putin going forward: “I learned that you can listen to the Americans, but you cannot trust them,” he says. “When they get an idea to do something, they’ll turn the world onto a different axis to get it done.”


[...]


Sadly, the military industrial complex and their puppets in Washington DC have been allowed to erase decades-worth of progress between east and west. Their agenda is perpetual war and global domination and the Democrats and Republicans are only too happy to accommodate them. Just very sad.


http://0311382.netsolhost.com/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/RTXMNTP-950x756.jpg

[Peter1469]

A new Cold War is not possible. That would take two global powers. Russia is a regional power.

[iustitia]

[mac-7]It's the lib commies fault for threatening our freedom and security. We're just doing what we need to do to keep the world free and safe so stop listening to communist libtard socialists. Don't hate America for their failure.[/mac-7]

[Ethereal]

A new Cold War is not possible. That would take two global powers. Russia is a regional power.

Why isn't Russia a global power?

[Peter1469]

Why isn't Russia a global power?

They have no ability to project military force. They could not even sustain long term combat in the Ukraine - part of their Near Abroad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_abroad).

[Chris]

Sadly, the military industrial complex and their puppets in Washington DC have been allowed to erase decades-worth of progress between east and west. Their agenda is perpetual war and global domination and the Democrats and Republicans are only too happy to accommodate them. Just very sad.


http://0311382.netsolhost.com/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/RTXMNTP-950x756.jpg


War is a racket, said Major General Smedley Butler.

It's good for business. Not good for the market.

[Ethereal]

They have no ability to project military force.

What about their nuclear arsenal?


They could not even sustain long term combat in the Ukraine - part of their Near Abroad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_abroad).

Not sure what you mean. Russia hasn't intended or attempted to sustain long term combat in the Ukraine.

[donttread]

I never felt we did enough to help the Russian economy transform to Captialism once the wall went down.

[Peter1469]

What about their nuclear arsenal?



Not sure what you mean. Russia has never intended or attempted to sustain long term combat in the Ukraine.

The nuclear arsenal is their only claim to international credibility. It gets them a seat at the international table. That is all it does.

Regarding sustaining combat operations. You are not a global power if you can't sustain long term combat on your front door.

The US can do it anywhere in the world at will. That is why the US is a global power.

[Peter1469]

I am not attaching a moral judgement to the issue.

[Ethereal]

The nuclear arsenal is their only claim to international credibility. It gets them a seat at the international table. That is all it does.

Their nuclear arsenal permits them to project devastating military force globally.


Regarding sustaining combat operations. You are not a global power if you can't sustain long term combat on your front door.

It's not that Russia can't, it's that they don't want to and haven't tried to.


The US can do it anywhere in the world at will. That is why the US is a global power.

Russia's ICBM's can strike virtually anywhere in the world, too.

[Peter1469]

Their nuclear arsenal permits them to project devastating military force globally.



It's not that Russia can't, it's that they don't want to and haven't tried to.



Russia's ICBM's can strike virtually anywhere in the world, too.

I am betting that nobody is going to launch nukes.

And yes. If Russia decided to invade for real the Ukraine, it would have to hope for a fast war. Even so close, it could not sustain a long fight there.

[Mac-7]

[mac-7]It's the lib commies fault for threatening our freedom and security. We're just doing what we need to do to keep the world free and safe so stop listening to communist libtard socialists. Don't hate America for their failure.[/mac-7]

That's an interesting rant.

It attacks me and the great nation I love.

But why?

Russia is a faded power.

A rather squalid country that produces little more than raw material and energy for Western Europe.

And hot women.

Let's not forget them.

The Russians remind me of a frightened dog across the fence that barks and growls and bares its teeth because it feels threatened by the rest of the world, particularly America.

[exotix]

[mac-7]It's the lib commies fault for threatening our freedom and security. We're just doing what we need to do to keep the world free and safe so stop listening to communist libtard socialists. Don't hate America for their failure.[/mac-7]So America is a frightened little sheeple nation who responds to every peepsqueek who beats their chest at us provking us.

This sounds like Bush invading Iraq.

[Peter1469]

So America is a frightened little sheeple nation who responds to every peepsqueek who beats their chest at us provking us.

This sounds like Bush invading Iraq.
How so?

[Paperback Writer]

They have no ability to project military force. They could not even sustain long term combat in the Ukraine - part of their Near Abroad (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_abroad).

I don't believe they were involved in conflict. From my sources it's all a lot of rubbish.

[Green Arrow]

I have a lot of respect for Gorbachev. I had the pleasure of interviewing him in 2010 for a school project.

[PolWatch]

I have a lot of respect for Gorbachev. I had the pleasure of interviewing him in 2010 for a school project.

wow! How did a high school student get to meet a world leader?

[Common Sense]

I don't believe they were involved in conflict. From my sources it's all a lot of rubbish.

...is your source Bob, an RT reporter or Mr. Putin?

[exotix]

How so?
Maybe we can get Graham & McKook to go into hysterics calling for the invasion of North Korea ... oh wait, Graham more or less did ...



President Obama 'should immediately put our enemies on notice that they conduct these attacks against our nation and interests at their own peril'


http://www.breakingnews.com/item/2014/12/18/sen-lindsey-graham-r-sc-on-reports-north-korea/

[Green Arrow]

wow! How did a high school student get to meet a world leader?

It was for a competition called History Day. The theme was "The Individual In History" and my partner and I chose to do a documentary. She let me pick the topic, and I chose Gorbachev. She handled the technical aspects of the documentary, I handled content. One of my sources was a professor of history at CSUB, and he personally knew and regulay spoke to Gorbachev. I asked him if he could get me an interview, and he did. It was over video chat, not in person, sadly. But it was still freaking cool :tongue:

[Paperback Writer]

...is your source Bob, an RT reporter or Mr. Putin?

I work at the BBC and have been to the region. Conflict involves fighting instead of people on the side of the road looking confused.

[Captain Obvious]

Did he ever get that bird shit spot on his head fixed?

[Common Sense]

I work at the BBC and have been to the region. Conflict involves fighting instead of people on the side of the road looking confused.

...I'm not saying there was a full scale invasion by Russian ground troops. But it's pretty clear they armed rebels, provided air support, artillery and special forces.

I mean they were seen in Dontsk. Satellite images show their movements. There is photographic and video evidence. There was also lots of fighting.

[Paperback Writer]

...I'm not saying there was a full scale invasion by Russian ground troops. But it's pretty clear they armed rebels, provided air support, artillery and special forces.

I mean they were seen in Dontsk. Satellite images show their movements. There is photographic and video evidence. There was also lots of fighting.

There is no evidence for "lots of fighting". There is evidence they were in the region. There is also evidence they were invited.

This is where western hypocrisy comes in. We're the only one allowed to "liberate" regions, yeh?

[PolWatch]

It was for a competition called History Day. The theme was "The Individual In History" and my partner and I chose to do a documentary. She let me pick the topic, and I chose Gorbachev. She handled the technical aspects of the documentary, I handled content. One of my sources was a professor of history at CSUB, and he personally knew and regulay spoke to Gorbachev. I asked him if he could get me an interview, and he did. It was over video chat, not in person, sadly. But it was still freaking cool :tongue:

What an accomplishment! I suspect there are adult journalists who envied you!

[Common Sense]

There is no evidence for "lots of fighting". There is evidence they were in the region. There is also evidence they were invited.

This is where western hypocrisy comes in. We're the only one allowed to "liberate" regions, yeh?

Oh I agree there is hypocrisy.

But what is truly hypocritical is that Putin has flat out denied the obvious incursion.

Maybe they were invited, but not by the government. If the people there want to be independent or join Russia, they should hold a referendum. Not invite another country's army in...and then deny they are actually there.

...and let's not pretend that these people are oppressed in the ethnically Russian portion of eastern Ukraine, or that Russia is there to "liberate" people.

[Mister D]

There is no evidence for "lots of fighting". There is evidence they were in the region. There is also evidence they were invited.

This is where western hypocrisy comes in. We're the only one allowed to "liberate" regions, yeh?

The ideology (or even religion) of human rights gives the liberal west the moral cover to behave this way. We intervene in the name of humanity, democracy, and so forth. I'm not sure if this is mere hypocrisy though. There are true believers in our governments just like there were true believers in 'white man's burden' of which the ideology of human rights is just the latest manifestation.

[Mister D]

I hate it when I sound like a leftists but it's true: all this claptrap rights and democracy is a tool of imperialists.

[Bo-4]

What's funny about the Poot is that conservatives were all hot and bothered about him 6-12 months ago.

You know, stuff like "now THAT's a leader!" and "Pooty is playing chess while Obama is playing marbles" -- stuff like that.

Now his economy is in tatters.. Oh how the mighty have fallen. :)

[Mister D]

What's funny about the Poot is that conservatives were all hot and bothered about him 6-12 months ago.

You know, stuff like "now THAT's a leader!" and "Pooty is playing chess while Obama is playing marbles" -- stuff like that.

Now his economy is in tatters.. Oh how the mighty have fallen. :)

Progressives keep saying that but whenever I ask who specifically was "all hot and bothered" I don't get an answer.

[Bo-4]

Progressives keep saying that but whenever I ask who specifically was "all hot and bothered" I don't get an answer.

Oh please.. looks like Mister D needs a refresher course.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/american-right-professes-love-for-putin-374878275878

[Mister D]

Oh please.. looks like @Mister D (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=4) needs a refresher course.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/american-right-professes-love-for-putin-374878275878

I'm not really in the mood for Rachel Maddow videos. Could you please cite some quotes?

[Common Sense]

What's funny about the Poot is that conservatives were all hot and bothered about him 6-12 months ago.

You know, stuff like "now THAT's a leader!" and "Pooty is playing chess while Obama is playing marbles" -- stuff like that.

Now his economy is in tatters.. Oh how the mighty have fallen. :)

He really is quite fucked at this point. He's going to have to take drastic measures to save his economy and save face.

...but still, the right wing love affair is far from over. Bob fellates him regularly.

[Green Arrow]

What an accomplishment! I suspect there are adult journalists who envied you!

I was offered a job at our local paper when I graduated, 'cause I also wrote for our school paper and my articles were the most anticipated articles of all of them. My journalism advisor was also my English teacher, and taught English for sophomores and up. He said his classes would see our topics on the journalism board and start talking about my articles and my opponent's counter articles just seeing our names attached to the topic.

But to work for my local paper, I would have had to take journalism in college, and I didn't want to do that.

[Mister D]

He really is quite $#@!ed at this point. He's going to have to take drastic measures to save his economy and save face.

...but still, the right wing love affair is far from over. Bob fellates him regularly.

Oh, sorry, Bo. It looks like "conservatives" who "were all hot and bothered" = Bob. My bad.

[Green Arrow]

What's funny about the Poot is that conservatives were all hot and bothered about him 6-12 months ago.

You know, stuff like "now THAT's a leader!" and "Pooty is playing chess while Obama is playing marbles" -- stuff like that.

Now his economy is in tatters.. Oh how the mighty have fallen. :)

His economy is in shambles because we destroyed it with sanctions.

[Bo-4]

I'm not really in the mood for Rachel Maddow videos. Could you please cite some quotes?

It was 15 seconds long and no commercial, but if you insist:

House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers (R-Mich.) gushed (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/playing-marbles), “Putin is playing chess and I think we are playing marbles.” Rudy Giuliani said (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/rallying-around-the-wrong-president) of Putin, “That’s what you call a leader.” Even Mitt Romney hailed (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/54167728#54167728) the Russian autocrat: “I think Putin has outperformed our president time and time again on the world stage.”

And on.. and on ... and ON.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116859/putin-envy-and-american-conservatives

[Green Arrow]

Oh I agree there is hypocrisy.

But what is truly hypocritical is that Putin has flat out denied the obvious incursion.

Maybe they were invited, but not by the government. If the people there want to be independent or join Russia, they should hold a referendum. Not invite another country's army in...and then deny they are actually there.

...and let's not pretend that these people are oppressed in the ethnically Russian portion of eastern Ukraine, or that Russia is there to "liberate" people.

The people of Crimea held a referendum on joining Russia, and Ukraine refuses to acknowledge the results and the West does as well. Why should the people of Donetsk expect a different result?

[Bo-4]

He really is quite fucked at this point. He's going to have to take drastic measures to save his economy and save face.

...but still, the right wing love affair is far from over. Bob fellates him regularly.

I saw last night that Apple had shut down all orders from The Land of Poot because they couldn't figure out what a Ruble is worth (nothing ;-)

[PolWatch]

I was offered a job at our local paper when I graduated, 'cause I also wrote for our school paper and my articles were the most anticipated articles of all of them. My journalism advisor was also my English teacher, and taught English for sophomores and up. He said his classes would see our topics on the journalism board and start talking about my articles and my opponent's counter articles just seeing our names attached to the topic.

But to work for my local paper, I would have had to take journalism in college, and I didn't want to do that.

Your early interest in politics is unusual...I'm always impressed to see young'uns who are interested in politics & current events...not to mention as well informed as some on this forum.

[Bo-4]

His economy is in shambles because we destroyed it with sanctions.

And to think that cons said Obama's sanctions would do no good.

Ah well.

[Polecat]

All this international strife is being engineered and executed on behalf of the banks. They alone will profit greatly. In order to establish a new world currency there needs to be some massive failures in our current methods. They appear to be doing just that too.

[Mister D]

Well, yeah, but that was done in the name of human rights, freedom, self-determination and stuff like that.

[Green Arrow]

Your early interest in politics is unusual...I'm always impressed to see young'uns who are interested in politics & current events...not to mention as well informed as some on this forum.

My parents worked for Bush's reelection campaign and listened to talk radio pretty much my whole life. Every time we went on a long trip, which was often, it'd be talk radio the whole way. Kinda just shaped my life interest toward politics.

[Common Sense]

His economy is in shambles because we destroyed it with sanctions.

Even experts agree that the effect of sanctions has only hurt a select few of Russia's elite. The real culprit is the declining price of oil.

[Green Arrow]

And to think that cons said Obama's sanctions would do no good.

Ah well.

Well, it depends on how you define "good." If "good" is destroying the Russian economy and innocent Russian lives along with it just because of Western ideals, then yes, the sanctions did good.

But if "good" means actually benefiting the West, then no, we actually hurt ourselves.

[Mister D]

It was 15 seconds long and no commercial, but if you insist:

House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers (R-Mich.) gushed (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/playing-marbles), “Putin is playing chess and I think we are playing marbles.” Rudy Giuliani said (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/rallying-around-the-wrong-president) of Putin, “That’s what you call a leader.” Even Mitt Romney hailed (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/54167728#54167728) the Russian autocrat: “I think Putin has outperformed our president time and time again on the world stage.”

And on.. and on ... and ON.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116859/putin-envy-and-american-conservatives

Um...stating that Putin has outperformed Obama on the world stage is not to be all "hot and bothered". Neither is stating that Putin is a good leader. Hitler clearly outperformed many western leaders. Am I "all hot and bothered" about Hitler because I said so? You really need to do better Bo but something tells me you can't.

[Bo-4]

Even experts agree that the effect of sanctions has only hurt a select few of Russia's elite. The real culprit is the declining price of oil.

Largely correct!

[Common Sense]

Um...stating that Putin has outperformed Obama on the world stage is not to be all "hot and bothered". Neither is stating that Putin is a good leader. Hitler clearly outperformed many western leaders. Am I "all hot and bothered" about Hitler because I said so? You really need to do better Bo but something tells me you can't.

Come on, any honest person would admit that there was and is a love affair between some on the right and Putin. Even conservatives have complained about it.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/explaining-the-conservative-love-affair-with-vladimir-putin-its-all-about-opposing-obama/

[Mister D]

Largely correct!

Which makes you largely incorrect!



And to think that cons said Obama's sanctions would do no good.

Ah well.

Ah well.

[Mister D]

Come on, any honest person would admit that there was and is a love affair between some on the right and Putin. Even conservatives have complained about it.

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/explaining-the-conservative-love-affair-with-vladimir-putin-its-all-about-opposing-obama/

No, they wouldn't. No honest person would use ridiculous terms like "hot and bothered" or "love affair" but neither one of you are particularly honest so...

[Bo-4]

Which makes you largely incorrect!

Ah well.

It's a combination with oil prices leading the way by half a length.

Did you bone up on RW Pooty-Love yet? :cool:

[Mister D]

Both are inexcusable, but Batista not only murdered and imprisoned dissidents, he sold his country out to the highest bidder. While I am no advocate for forced communism, life for the average Cuban under Castro is far better life under Batista. Cuba was being transformed into an even more corrupt Las Vegas, run by gangsters. Its natural resources were being plundered and none of the revenue went to the average Cuban. It lined the pockets of a corrupt dictatorship.

Basically the US owned Cuba literally and figuratively until the revolution. Controlling over half the sugar production, 80% of the mineral resources and all of its oil resources. What did they expect to happen. Clearly they didn't learn their lesson as they repeated their mistakes in Iran.

Common Sense loves Castro. :grin: Ain't he all hot and bothered!

[Mister D]

It's a combination with oil prices leading the way by half a length.

Did you bone up on RW Pooty-Love yet? :cool:

I'm not asure what that means but what I did do was show how you contradicted yourself in the very next post. :laugh:

[Bo-4]

No, they wouldn't. No honest person would use ridiculous terms like "hot and bothered" or "love affair" but neither one of you are particularly honest so...

She looks pretty hot and bothered to me!

"Well, yes, especially under the commander-in-chief that we have today because Obama's -- the perception of him and his potency across the world is one of such weakness. And you know, look, people are looking at Putin as one who wrestles bears and drills for oil. They look at our president as one who wears mom jeans and equivocates and bloviates." -Sarah Palin

[Bo-4]

I'm not asure what that means but what I did do was show how you contradicted yourself in the very next post. :laugh:

Uh huh :D

http://dugpasandtheirrole.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/grasping-at-straws.jpg?w=196

[Common Sense]

Common Sense loves Castro. :grin: Ain't he all hot and bothered!

Do you see me praising Castro? This moronic train of thought was brought up by Bob last night. Apparently not criticizing Obama's choice to change the relationship means I love Castro.

But I see what you're trying to do. The difference is, conservatives have not only expressed their displeasure with Obama, but have heaped praise on Putin as "a real leader", some "who has balls" and have seemed to relish in the idea that Putin bests Obama. Can you see the difference?

[Common Sense]

No, they wouldn't. No honest person would use ridiculous terms like "hot and bothered" or "love affair" but neither one of you are particularly honest so...

I'm not honest? Thanks. I do admit I'm not completely honest in regards to my opinion of you. But it's me trying to be polite.

[Paperback Writer]

And to think that cons said Obama's sanctions would do no good.

Ah well.

What good is done by harming the people of a nation because you don't like their government. What bloodthirsty cunts you all are.

[Mister D]

Do you see me praising Castro? This moronic train of thought was brought up by Bob last night. Apparently not criticizing Obama's choice to change the relationship means I love Castro.

But I see what you're trying to do. The difference is, conservatives have not only expressed their displeasure with Obama, but have heaped praise on Putin as "a real leader", some "who has balls" and have seemed to relish in the idea that Putin bests Obama. Can you see the difference?

It's not what I'm trying to do. It's what I did easily. Now, don't be so defensive about your love for Castro! Oh, but there's a difference! Sure! lol It's always different when you're the target of mischaracterization and distortion.

[Mister D]

I'm not honest? Thanks. I do admit I'm not completely honest in regards to my opinion of you. But it's me trying to be polite.

If I respected you at all that might sting.

[Mister D]

Uh huh :D

http://dugpasandtheirrole.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/grasping-at-straws.jpg?w=196

I don't know what this means either but whatever.

[Common Sense]

What good is done by harming the people of a nation because you don't like their government. What bloodthirsty $#@!s you all are.

That's not what these sanctions do.

Have people actually looked into these sanctions and who the effect? It doesn't seem like they have...yet they like to complain about them.

These aren't the type of sanctions imposed on Iran or Cuba. They are targeted to specific businesses and individuals.

[Mister D]

She looks pretty hot and bothered to me!

"Well, yes, especially under the commander-in-chief that we have today because Obama's -- the perception of him and his potency across the world is one of such weakness. And you know, look, people are looking at Putin as one who wrestles bears and drills for oil. They look at our president as one who wears mom jeans and equivocates and bloviates." -Sarah Palin

Hmmm...the perception of Obama is one of weakness and Putin's one of strength. Ergo, she loves Putin. Yeah, that makes sense. Not.

[Common Sense]

If I respected you at all that might sting.

Well frankly I'm hurt. Just quite devastated.





:rofl:

[Green Arrow]

I have no qualms admitting that I respect Putin. He's certainly far from perfect, but he does project an aura of strong leadership and he's a traditionalist, both aspects I like.

[Bo-4]

I don't know what this means either but whatever.

A desperate man grasping at straws. C'mon Mister D .. you can do better!

[Bo-4]

Hmmm...the perception of Obama is one of weakness and Putin's one of strength. Ergo, she loves Putin. Yeah, that makes sense. Not.

Well, he wrestles bears and drills for oil. I imagine Toad Palin was a mite jealous after that hot flash! :~)

[Mister D]

I have no qualms admitting that I respect Putin. He's certainly far from perfect, but he does project an aura of strong leadership and he's a traditionalist, both aspects I like.

That's all these supposed lovers of Putin are actually saying.

I admire Putin for the same reasons.

[Mister D]

Well, he wrestles bears and drills for oil. I imagine Toad Palin was a mite jealous after that hot flash! :~)

Bo, you're corny.

[Mister D]

A desperate man grasping at straws. C'mon @Mister D (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=4) .. you can do better!

A selfie?

[Bo-4]

Bo, you're corny.

Says the dude with the white powdered wig. ;-)

[Paperback Writer]

That's not what these sanctions do.

It is indeed what all sanctions do. They are intended to make the people rise up against their leaders when they feel the sting of suffering, although it is sold that they mean to hurt the business leaders and politicians. Only am imbecile believes that the businesses or politicians will allow themselves to be harmed.

It's trickle down nonsense of the worst sort and I do hope this is stubbornness on your part and you're only pretending to be that stupid that you don't realise it.

[Common Sense]

It is indeed what all sanctions do. They are intended to make the people rise up against their leaders when they feel the sting of suffering, although it is sold that they mean to hurt the business leaders and politicians. Only am imbecile believes that the businesses or politicians will allow themselves to be harmed.

It's trickle down nonsense of the worst sort and I do hope this is stubbornness on your part and you're only pretending to be that stupid that you don't realise it.

Come on...do you know what these sanctions do? They are not the same animal that other sanctions like the ones against Iran. They target individuals and corporations. They are not stopping food or medicine from coming and going. They are not cutting off any goods to or from Russia. They are not affecting the people the same way real sanctions do...and to pretend they are responsible for Russia's crumbling economy would be inaccurate.

[Paperback Writer]

Come on...do you know what these sanctions do? They are not the same animal that other sanctions like the ones against Iran. They target individuals and corporations.

Do I remotely seem like the type that would comment on a subject I know little about? They are directed at industry that was the bedrock of their rising economy for the sole purpose of reducing the money flow into the country and lowering the standards of living so that the people will be disgruntled enough to oust Putin.

Let us not be dreary youngsters that are so naive and simple that we believe there was any other point for it.




They are not stopping food or medicine from coming and going. They are not cutting off any goods to or from Russia. .

Of course they're not. Goods going into a country support the economies selling them. Are you reading your own posts?

[Mister D]

Good Lord...what other effect are sanctions expected to have? Of course they're intended to cause unrest and popular discontent.

[Common Sense]

Do I remotely seem like the type that would comment on a subject I know little about? They are directed at industry that was the bedrock of their rising economy for the sole purpose of reducing the money flow into the country and lowering the standards of living so that the people will be disgruntled enough to oust Putin.

Let us not be dreary youngsters that are so naive and simple that we believe there was any other point for it.



Of course they're not. Goods going into a country support the economies selling them. Are you reading your own posts?

I don't know...maybe.

These sanctions are directed at two energy companies, some banks and a handful of individuals. Your comment "What good is done by harming the people of a nation because you don't like their government. What bloodthirsty $#@!s you all are." implies that you don't understand this.

The current economic woes Russia is facing is not a result of the sanctions. Your comments would have us believe it is. Even Putin claimed the sanctions were not effective. He in turn has imposed sanctions on the west.

[Paperback Writer]

Good Lord...what other effect are sanctions expected to have? Of course they're intended to cause unrest and popular discontent.

It's utter nonsense out of this point. I do so adore watching modern liberalism go out the window when it comes to Russia. Russia bans sexual propaganda with high fines and they're evil. Muslims ban homosexuality with death as punishment in 12 countries and they defer to their Muslim neighbour and say we ought to think of the women and children.

Hypocrisy in the extremes!

For once, I'd like nations to turn internal and fix their own problems rather than seek out the problems of other nations to focus upon. We've got a good portion of our nation out of work, paedo scandals leaking out the arse, and a disintegrating identity with the Scots still on the warpath to leave the Kingdom. We have no time for assisting the Yanks in more of their imperial rubbish.

Obviously Canada does. :rollseyes:

[Bo-4]

I don't know...maybe.

These sanctions are directed at two energy companies, some banks and a handful of individuals. Your comment "What good is done by harming the people of a nation because you don't like their government. What bloodthirsty $#@!s you all are." implies that you don't understand this.

The current economic woes Russia is facing is not a result of the sanctions. Your comments would have us believe it is. Even Putin claimed the sanctions were not effective. He in turn has imposed sanctions on the west.

You'd be the winner of this debate. Sanctions that affect the common man usually fail.. just look at Cuba. Strong-arm dick-taters like Putin or Castro just use their people's suffering to blame The Great Satin.. (US). Worked a few decades for Fidel.

[Common Sense]

You'd be the winner of this debate. Sanctions that affect people always fail.. just look at Cuba. Strong-arm dick-taters like Putin or Castro just use people's suffering to blame The Great Satin.. (US). Worked a few decades for Fidel.

I wouldn't support sanctions that put the burden on the everyday people of Russia. While I don't understand their passion for Putin, I don't really blame them for his actions.

[Paperback Writer]

I don't know...maybe.

These sanctions are directed at two energy companies, some banks and a handful of individuals. Your comment "What good is done by harming the people of a nation because you don't like their government. What bloodthirsty $#@!s you all are." implies that you don't understand this.

Do you honestly not realise that those two energy companies contribute grossly to the prosperity of Russia and stability of the Russian government? What do you believe the purpose of sanctions are? I have to wonder if you just pretending to be stupid so that you can trick the uniformed with this anti-Russian propaganda or if you're just that clueless as to what sanctions are.

No, don't answer. At this point, I have gained the realisation that you're intellectually in over your head and just fall upon sarcasm to cover up for it. I'm done with this nonsense. Continue with Mister D if he so chooses, I'll have none of this lowbrow excuse for political dialogue.

[Paperback Writer]

You'd be the winner of this debate. Sanctions that affect people always fail.. just look at Cuba. Strong-arm dick-taters like Putin or Castro just use people's suffering to blame The Great Satin.. (US). Worked a few decades for Fidel.

Satan has an "a" in it, and he's won nothing. Sanctions that effect people do always fail, and this one is also failing. They've made Russians close ranks and hate the West even more.

Good job, lads!

[Matty]

Sadly, the military industrial complex and their puppets in Washington DC have been allowed to erase decades-worth of progress between east and west. Their agenda is perpetual war and global domination and the Democrats and Republicans are only too happy to accommodate them. Just very sad.


http://0311382.netsolhost.com/WordPress/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/RTXMNTP-950x756.jpg
Everyone blames the U.S. for their own inadeqyacies so he's in good company. Send him an invitation to the Blame America First Club!

[Common Sense]

Do you honestly not realise that those two energy companies contribute grossly to the prosperity of Russia and stability of the Russian government? What do you believe the purpose of sanctions are? I have to wonder if you just pretending to be stupid so that you can trick the uniformed with this anti-Russian propaganda or if you're just that clueless as to what sanctions are.

No, don't answer. At this point, I have gained the realisation that you're intellectually in over your head and just fall upon sarcasm to cover up for it. I'm done with this nonsense. Continue with Mister D if he so chooses, I'll have none of this lowbrow excuse for political dialogue.


Sure, but do those companies rely on American dollars or are the sanctions by the US more symbolic than anything else?



Anti Russian propaganda? Lowbrow? Stupid? Give me a fcking break. Go fck yourself you pretentious twat. I was being cordial and engaging in a polite debate.

What a self righteous tosser...

[Bo-4]

I wouldn't support sanctions that put the burden on the everyday people of Russia. While I don't understand their passion for Putin, I don't really blame them for his actions.

I don't get it either. Last i saw he still had a positive approval rating even though his country is in the tank. He gets away with it because he controls the message. Not sure if you caught any of what he said in almost four hours yesterday, but it was a non-stop rant against the US.

[Bo-4]

Satan has an "a" in it, and he's won nothing. Sanctions that effect people do always fail, and this one is also failing. They've made Russians close ranks and hate the West even more.

Good job, lads!

PW, the ONLY reason the Russian people FEEL affected by sanctions is because Putin blames the tanking economy (caused primarily by drop in oil prices) on the US.

Amazing what you can do with a 100% state controlled message.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHD5nd3QLTg

[Green Arrow]

I don't get it either. Last i saw he still had a positive approval rating even though his country is in the tank. He gets away with it because he controls the message. Not sure if you caught any of what he said in almost four hours yesterday, but it was a non-stop rant against the US.

You don't get it because you don't understand Russian culture.

[Common Sense]

Is strong like Bull...

[Alyosha]

http://www.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/ukrainerussia/


On March 20, 2014, the President issued a new Executive Order, "Blocking Property of Additional Persons Contributing to the Situation in Ukraine" (http://www.whitehouse.gov/the-press-office/2014/03/20/executive-order-blocking-property-additional-persons-contributing-situat) expanding the scope of the national emergency declared in Executive Order 13660 of March 6, 2014, and expanded by Executive Order 13661 of March 16, 2014, finding that the actions and policies of the Government of the Russian Federation, including its purported annexation of Crimea and its use of force in Ukraine, continue to undermine democratic processes and institutions in Ukraine; threaten its peace, security, stability, sovereignty, and territorial integrity; and contribute to the misappropriation of its assets, and thereby constitute an unusual and extraordinary threat to the national security and foreign policy of the United States.


Utilizing these Executive Orders, the United States has steadily increased the diplomatic and financial costs of Russia’s aggressive actions towards Ukraine. We have designated a number of Russian and Ukrainian entities, including 14 defense companies and individuals in Putin’s inner circle, as well as imposed targeted sanctions limiting certain financing to six of Russia’s largest banks and four energy companies. We have also suspended credit finance that encourages exports to Russia and financing for economic development projects in Russia, and are now prohibiting the provision, exportation, or reexportation of goods, services (not including financial services), or technology in support of exploration or production for deepwater, Arctic offshore, or shale projects that have the potential to produce oil in the Russian Federation, or in maritime area claimed by the Russian Federation and extending from its territory, and that involve five major Russian energy companies.


These actions, in close coordination with our EU and international partners, send a strong message to the Russian government that there are consequences for their actions that threaten the sovereignty and territorial integrity of Ukraine. The United States, together with international partners, will continue to stand by the Ukrainian government until Russia abides by its international obligations. The United States is prepared to take additional steps to impose further political and economic costs. A secure Ukraine, integrated with Europe and enjoying good relations with all its neighbors, is in the interests of the United States, Europe, and Russia.



The sanctions are there, along with increased production from OPEC, and high output from Texas and American based companies to destroy Russia's energy production and boost our own.

Because...we care so much about Ukrainian sovereignty. It must make them tear up, this outpouring of love we show them.

[Alyosha]

Everyone blames the U.S. for their own inadeqyacies so he's in good company. Send him an invitation to the Blame America First Club!

You and Common Sense are homeboys on this subject. He hates Russia, too.

[The Xl]

We're obviously fucking with them.

We're either a really stupid country or a country run by a few evil men at the top with nefarious intentions. Odds are heavily on the latter.

[Alyosha]

Ukraine had better fucking hope the sanctions work and oust Putin or we may end up having to free the shit out of them.

http://c1.staticflickr.com/1/132/353466683_b32f39724c.jpg

[PolWatch]

I know it's sad...but it's still funny...kinda along the lines of we had to destroy the village to save it....

[The Xl]

Can't we ever just fuck off and tend to our own affairs for once?

Fucking Christ. It's not like we even have the moral grounds to be doing any of the shit we're doing.

[Mister D]

We're obviously $#@!ing with them.

We're either a really stupid country or a country run by a few evil men at the top with nefarious intentions. Odds are heavily on the latter.

I think you are oversimplifying the situation. The west's motivation is a mix of self-interest and ideology. It's like claimning the British Empire was motivated solely by avarice. That's just nonsense. Likewise, western governments (led by the US of course) genuinely believe in what they're doing.

[Alyosha]

Can't we ever just fuck off and tend to our own affairs for once?

Fucking Christ. It's not like we even have the moral grounds to be doing any of the shit we're doing.

We invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, throw coups in Egypt, put troops on the ground in Libya and oust their government, shoot hellfires into Pakistan and Yemen, almost bombed Syria to freedom, but Russia needs sanction for putting tanks in a Russian-speaking area where treaty allows them to be.

Yep, makes sense.

[Mister D]

I know it's sad...but it's still funny...kinda along the lines of we had to destroy the village to save it....

No one ever actually said that.

[Alyosha]

I think you are oversimplifying the situation. The west's motivation is a mix of self-interest and ideology. It's like claimning the British Empire was motivated solely by avarice. That's just nonsense. Likewise, western governments (led by the US of course) genuinely believe in what they're doing.

Mister D

You honestly believe that these sanctions are because we care about the Ukrainian people? I have a hard time believing that you actually believe that.

[The Xl]

I think you are oversimplifying the situation. The west's motivation is a mix of self-interest and ideology. It's like claimning the British Empire was motivated solely by avarice. That's just nonsense. Likewise, western governments (led by the US of course) genuinely believe in what they're doing.

Whos self interest, though? The poor is doing bad, the working and middle classes are shrinking and slowly collapsing, and the fringe rich, the mid 6-early 7 earners and being taxed to death.

It's in the interest of the class of uber wealthy, powerful men.

[PolWatch]

I don't think anyone ever said we were gonna free the s**t outta of ya either.......they are both an exaggeration of a mindset

[The Xl]

We invaded Iraq, Afghanistan, throw coups in Egypt, put troops on the ground in Libya and oust their government, shoot hellfires into Pakistan and Yemen, almost bombed Syria to freedom, but Russia needs sanction for putting tanks in a Russian-speaking area where treaty allows them to be.

Yep, makes sense.

The US is a fucking joke at this point.

I used to be upset when people would label me as a "blame America first" guy, but I don't really care anymore. Anyone not intelligent enough to see what's going down isn't intelligent at all. And yes, being dazzled by blind "patriotism" disqualifies them from being intelligent at this stage of the game with the information out there.

[Mister D]

@Mister D (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=4)

You honestly believe that these sanctions are because we care about the Ukrainian people? I have a hard time believing that you actually believe that.

No more than I think we cared about the Iraqi people. The liberal states care about "humanity" and the "individual" not real people, real cultures, and rel communities. Their concern is to make the world conform to a certain set of ideals which, oddly enough, most Americans share.

[Alyosha]

The US is a fucking joke at this point.

I used to be upset when people would label me as a "blame America first" guy, but I don't really care anymore. Anyone not intelligent enough to see what's going down isn't intelligent at all. And yes, being dazzled by blind "patriotism" disqualifies them from being intelligent at this stage of the game with the information out there.

And when parents discipline their kids are they "blame your own kids first"? No. The only way to be active citizens is to look at your own country first and voice your criticism so that it changes.

[Mister D]

Whos self interest, though? The poor is doing bad, the working and middle classes are shrinking and slowly collapsing, and the fringe rich, the mid 6-early 7 earners and being taxed to death.

It's in the interest of the class of uber wealthy, powerful men.

Truth be told, you live like a king relatively speaking. That is more than enough to explain our collective impotence.

[Alyosha]

No more than I think we cared about the Iraqi people. The liberal states care about "humanity" and the "individual" not real people, real cultures, and rel communities. Their concern is to make the world conform to a certain set of ideals which, oddly enough, most Americans share.

I think you're kind. I don't think we had good intentions for any of those countries. I think our leaders intentions were and are selfish.

[Mister D]

I think you're kind. I don't think we had good intentions for any of those countries. I think our leaders intentions were and are selfish.

I'm sure some of them were. I would say the same about some European businessmen and traders in Africa or India but I won't attempt to reduce this phenomenon to a single cause.

[The Xl]

Truth be told, you live like a king relatively speaking. That is more than enough to explain our collective impotence.

We live like "kings" relatively speaking because of prior we had standing and what's left of what this once great country used to be. Those luxuries and whatnot are declining, fast. They couldn't take it all at once, it would be too noticeable.

[Mister D]

We live like "kings" relatively speaking because of the standing and what's left of what this once great country used to be. Those luxuries and whatnot are declining, fast.

Well, when Americans aren't so fat and happy maybe more people will listen.

[Mister D]

Even considered from a cynical perspective you'd have to admit that the west's actions have considerable ideological/moral camouflage.

[Bob]

A new Cold War is not possible. That would take two global powers. Russia is a regional power.

Obama has made a huge mess out of a regional problem. He had no business at all involved in this mess in Ukraine. Russia feels threatened.

[Alyosha]

Even considered from a cynical perspective you'd have to admit that the west's actions have considerable ideological/moral camouflage.

Not really because, actions aside, the morality argument still requires consistency to camouflage another purpose.

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Alyosha http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=887333#post887333)
@Mister D (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=4)

You honestly believe that these sanctions are because we care about the Ukrainian people? I have a hard time believing that you actually believe that.


No more than I think we cared about the Iraqi people. The liberal states care about "humanity" and the "individual" not real people, real cultures, and rel communities. Their concern is to make the world conform to a certain set of ideals which, oddly enough, most Americans share.

I think she would like it more if you kept to Ukraine. And you don't agree with sanctions there. I don't either. It is not going to please the public of Russia at all. Some don't care but look at the vast country. They are not chopped liver. As to Iraq, I still believe Bush felt bad for the public of Iraq.

We forget today that when the sanctions were against Iraq, a lot of Americans got angry that we hurt the people and not Saddam. This is not hurting Putin either.

People forget the long run up to the Iraq war. Both by Bush 41, Clinton then Bush 43. It was not a single event. This country was so angry at Saddam it passed a public law to get him out of government.

I think Bush relied a lot on that believing the mood of both government and the public was to take out Saddam. Democrat agreed at first since they had long led the charge. They enjoyed the bombing done to Iraq by Clinton in my view. I am talking posters since I argued with a lot of posters at that time. Suddenly once Bush invaded Iraq, those same democrats ramping up war said, hell no.

[Mister D]

Not really because, actions aside, the morality argument still requires consistency to camouflage another purpose.

Evidently, that ideological camouflage has convinced a great many westerners, including many of those in power, that we take military and economic action in the service of higher ideals. We're not led by cartoon villians. These are real people who, like you or I, need to convince (or deceive) themselves that their actions and policies are benign. I have absolutely no doubt that most of our elites, especially our statesmen, have done exactly that. Of course it's all inconsistent. I agree with that. I don't see how it could be otherwise when you push your way of life on other people while proclaiming its universality.

[Alyosha]

Evidently, that ideological camouflage has convinced a great many westerners, including many of those in power, that we take military and economic action in the service of higher ideals. We're not led by cartoon villians. These are real people who, like you or I, need to convince (or deceive) themselves that their actions and policies are benign. I have absolutely no doubt that most of our elites, especially our statesmen, have done exactly that. Of course it's all inconsistent. I agree with that. I don't see how it could be otherwise when you push your way of life on other people while proclaiming its universality.

It doesn't make someone a cartoon villain to make them act in self-interest and to allow themselves to be influenced by others with self-interested machinations. We all do it to a certain extent each day in our own positions, why not at a grand scale?

[Mister D]

It doesn't make someone a cartoon villain to make them act in self-interest and to allow themselves to be influenced by others with self-interested machinations. We all do it to a certain extent each day in our own positions, why not at a grand scale?

Of course we do but to consciously embrace it, especially in the context of war, smacks of mental illness. Moreover, isn't that part and parcel of (classical) liberal anthropology (i.e. that human beings do, and more importantly, should act in their own self-interests)? That it's in fact beneficial for all of us that we do so?

I think too often we forcefully implicate our political class and portray them as diabolical criminals because we know there is something dreadfully wrong with our way of life which , much to our dismay, implicates us all.

I have no problem believing there are self-interested parties in power who push narrow interests but I don't believe that characterizes most of our leadership. I think there are a great many ideologues and idealists. I'm not sure which group is more dangerous...

[Alyosha]

Of course we do but to consciously embrace it, especially in the context of war, smacks of mental illness. Moreover, isn't that part and parcel of (classical) liberal anthropology (i.e. that human beings do, and more importantly, should act in their own self-interests)? That it's in fact beneficial for all of us that we do so?

I would agree, if that's at all what I think we're doing.




I think too often we forcefully implicate our political class and portray them as diabolical criminals because we know there is something dreadfully wrong with our way of life which , much to our dismay, implicates us all.


I'd also agree if I that was what I am doing. I was not always anti-state, I was a person who believed that they were good people with flaws born of compromise.

Then I started to attend parties with them during law school at Georgetown to network, as well as, date around with up and coming K-streeters and now I am of the firm opinion that they are 80% evil fucks and the other 20% are as you say.

As a Catholic person I do not like to believe that about people. I want to be more idealistic.



I have no problem believing there are self-interested parties in power who push narrow interests but I don't believe that characterizes most of our leadership. I think there are a great many ideologues and idealists. I'm not sure which group is more dangerous...

Well, we'll disagree since we're both creatures of our own experience.

[Peter1469]

I don't believe they were involved in conflict. From my sources it's all a lot of rubbish.

I suspect that they are / were, but I don't have proof one way or another.

[Peter1469]

We could retaliate via their computer networks, but that might compromise our use of them to spy on North Korea.

Maybe we can get Graham & McKook to go into hysterics calling for the invasion of North Korea ... oh wait, Graham more or less did ...



President Obama 'should immediately put our enemies on notice that they conduct these attacks against our nation and interests at their own peril'


http://www.breakingnews.com/item/2014/12/18/sen-lindsey-graham-r-sc-on-reports-north-korea/

[Common Sense]

You and Common Sense are homeboys on this subject. He hates Russia, too.

Could you please, for the love of god, stop telling me what I think?

I don't hate Russia, Russians or even Putin. I don't like Putin...but I certainly don't hate the man.

Put words in my mouth again...

[Alyosha]

Could you please, for the love of god, stop telling me what I think?

I don't hate Russia, Russians or even Putin. I don't like Putin...but I certainly don't hate the man.

Put words in my mouth again...

http://i.imgur.com/wUsLQiy.gif

[Common Sense]

http://i.imgur.com/wUsLQiy.gif

Seriously?

I used to think of you as a great poster. You've become sort of hostile and irrational.

Good luck with that and Merry Christmas.

[iustitia]

Seriously?

I used to think of you as a great poster. You've become sort of hostile and irrational.

Good luck with that and Merry Christmas.I don't think she means anything by it. I just think she's saying you're being a bitter bitch.

[Dr. Who]

I think that the imposition of sanctions against Russia has little to do with defending Ukrainian interests and more to do with diminishing the expansion of Russian economic power and influence in the region. Putin has been trying to create an economic union of the east, including China and perhaps south and south east Asia. Western powers are terrified of the possibility of that becoming a reality. The Ukraine is just a convenient excuse for the west to undermine Putin's ambitions. I cannot help but think that the sudden drop in oil prices is awfully convenient coming now, when sanctions against Russia were having little effect.

[GrassrootsConservative]

Fuck that Commie. What does he know? He's Russian.

[Green Arrow]

Could you please, for the love of god, stop telling me what I think?

I don't hate Russia, Russians or even Putin. I don't like Putin...but I certainly don't hate the man.

Put words in my mouth again...

No offense, but you do the same thing, constantly.

[The Xl]

Well, when Americans aren't so fat and happy maybe more people will listen.

Fat on garbage foods with IPhones but having issues paying off their mortgages and paying for their health insurance.

It's kinda a weird, fucked up society we live in. But make no mistake, it's eroding generally and will crash at some point.

[Peter1469]

Fuck that Commie. What does he know? He's Russian. :shocked:

[The Xl]

Seriously?

I used to think of you as a great poster. You've become sort of hostile and irrational.

Good luck with that and Merry Christmas.

Irrational?

Weren't you the guy who was going to forward a 'mean' thread to your banker friends?

[GrassrootsConservative]

:shocked:

I assume it's the vodka.

[Mister D]

Fat on garbage foods with IPhones but having issues paying off their mortgages and paying for their health insurance.

It's kinda a weird, $#@!ed up society we live in. But make no mistake, it's eroding generally and will crash at some point.

But the powers that be have no interest in allowing that to happen since it will undermine their position. How to account for that? Could it be that we're all complicit in what is just an unsustainable system?

[Mister D]

I think that the imposition of sanctions against Russia has little to do with defending Ukrainian interests and more to do with diminishing the expansion of Russian economic power and influence in the region. Putin has been trying to create an economic union of the east, including China and perhaps south and south east Asia. Western powers are terrified of the possibility of that becoming a reality. The Ukraine is just a convenient excuse for the west to undermine Putin's ambitions. I cannot help but think that the sudden drop in oil prices is awfully convenient coming now, when sanctions against Russia were having little effect.

I agree with all of that. My point is that the propaganda the west puts out to justify its actions is just that with no negative connotations attached. It's a worldview that is being propagated. A worldview that many of us, including some of those criticizing the US government right now, adhere to.

[Common Sense]

No offense, but you do the same thing, constantly.

Really? Show me where?

...and if I do it's with a poster who I find incredulous. I thought I had developed a rapport with her. I don't attack her or that di ck head Paperback and I'm told what I believe and attacked.

I treat those two posters with respect...they don't return the favor.

[Common Sense]

Irrational?

Weren't you the guy who was going to forward a 'mean' thread to your banker friends?

It wasn't a mean thread, it was just a post...I thought they would find it funny.

Shoot, I did forget to send it.

[Peter1469]

I assume it's the vodka.da

[Alyosha]

Seriously?

I used to think of you as a great poster. You've become sort of hostile and irrational.

Good luck with that and Merry Christmas.

http://www.cinemablend.com/images/news/41719/_1392787101.gif

[Alyosha]

Really? Show me where?
.

Mister D's thread about European identity, Mister D's thread about the EU, my posts about banking, your remarks about my "bias" in Bo's thread, shall I go on?

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Green Arrow http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=887158#post887158)
His economy is in shambles because we destroyed it with sanctions.


And to think that cons said Obama's sanctions would do no good.

Ah well.

Russia's economy is NOT in a shambles. It is growing. Russia has a surplus. Russia has banking reserves as well. Don't believe everything our media tells you.

[Common Sense]

Mister D's thread about European identity, Mister D's thread about the EU, my posts about banking, your remarks about my "bias" in Bo's thread, shall I go on?

Yes, please do.

I'm not going to say why I say the things I do about D. But I think it's pretty clear. I treat him with disrespect because I don't respect him.

But frankly I have treated you with respect.

I don't know what bias in Bo's thread you are talking about.

But for you to go ahead and tell me I hate Russia is pretty rude...and inaccurate. Then to call me a bitch?

[Ethereal]

...is your source Bob, an RT reporter or Mr. Putin?

Why do you always characterize anti-war westerners as RT/Putin drones? Did you even bother reading the article? Gorbachev used to be a vocal critic of Putin, just like many westerners, including myself. But we can think that Putin is correct on a particular issue without being slaves to Putin's will. And FYI, yes, I do read and watch RT sometimes. I also read and watch a plethora of other news outlets. I will grant that there has been covert Russian involvement and paramilitary support, but I will not accept the notion of "invasion" as in there are tanks rolling down the street into Kiev. Putin is not trying to provoke conflict with the west. In fact, he's been busily trying to avoid conflicts in Russia's back yard. How can westerners be so unaware of who is the true aggressor in this situation? Since the Cold War ended, which country has been more aggressive, the US or Russia?

[Common Sense]

Russia's economy is NOT in a shambles. It is growing. Russia has a surplus. Russia has banking reserves as well. Don't believe everything our media tells you.

Russia does not have a surplus. It has a trade surplus, but it has a national debt.

Russia's currency is taking a nosedive and it's hiking interest rates. That is simply a fact.

[Alyosha]

Yes, please do.

I'm not going to say why I say the things I do about D. But I think it's pretty clear. I treat him with disrespect because I don't respect him.

But frankly I have treated you with respect.

I don't know what bias in Bo's thread you are talking about.

But for you to go ahead and tell me I hate Russia is pretty rude...and inaccurate. Then to call me a bitch?

In every thread where "Russia" is in the title or has anything at all to do with it, you condemn that country for things that yours and mine do--what is that if not contempt, and what is contempt but hate?

[Ethereal]

Maybe we can get Graham & McKook to go into hysterics calling for the invasion of North Korea ... oh wait, Graham more or less did ...



President Obama 'should immediately put our enemies on notice that they conduct these attacks against our nation and interests at their own peril'


http://www.breakingnews.com/item/2014/12/18/sen-lindsey-graham-r-sc-on-reports-north-korea/

There needs to be a national campaign to remove McCain and Graham from office and prosecute them for aiding and abetting AQ and ISIS in Iraq, Libya, and Syria.

[Common Sense]

Why do you always characterize anti-war westerners as RT/Putin drones? Did you even bother reading the article? Gorbachev used to be a vocal critic of Putin, just like many westerners, including myself. But we can think that Putin is correct on a particular issue without being slaves to Putin's will. And FYI, yes, I do read and watch RT sometimes. I also read and watch a plethora of other news outlets. I will grant that there has been covert Russian involvement and paramilitary support, but I will not accept the notion of "invasion" as in there are tanks rolling down the street into Kiev. Putin is not trying to provoke conflict with the west. In fact, he's been busily trying to avoid conflicts in Russia's back yard. How can westerners be so unaware of who is the true aggressor in this situation? Since the Cold War ended, which country has been more aggressive, the US or Russia?

That's not what my comment was directed at...


I don't believe they were involved in conflict. From my sources it's all a lot of rubbish.

He says he doesn't believe they were involved. I made a sarcastic comment that his source must be Bob, RT or Putin. He says "I don't believe they were involved in conflict". It's pretty clear that they were.

Btw....I am an anti war westerner as well.

[Common Sense]

In every thread where "Russia" is in the title or has anything at all to do with it, you condemn that country for things that yours and mine do--what is that if not contempt, and what is contempt but hate?

I condemn Putin. Show me where I have condemned Russians.

I understand why you would jump to Russia's defense and I don't blame you.

[Bob]

He says he doesn't believe they were involved. I made a sarcastic comment that his source must be Bob, RT or Putin. He says "I don't believe they were involved in conflict". It's pretty clear that they were.

Btw....I am an anti war westerner as well.

Who is this they you claim is involved in Ukraine's conflict? Do you mean humanitarian aid to east Ukraine?

Russia ships them convoys of aid.

Do you mean the army of Russia?

I remind you vehicles made by Russia have long been the staple of the Ukraine forces. Seeing Russian vehicles there is no worse than seeing American cars driving in Canada.

It would be easy for Putin admit and make up some story if his troops were there. If you believe in Obama, why not believe in Putin?

[Green Arrow]

I condemn Putin. Show me where I have condemned Russians.

I understand why you would jump to Russia's defense and I don't blame you.

See? Right there. You just can't help yourself.

[Ethereal]

Oh I agree there is hypocrisy.

But what is truly hypocritical is that Putin has flat out denied the obvious incursion.

What's even more hypocritical is that western governments flat out denied their obvious role in the overthrow of the duly elected president.


Maybe they were invited, but not by the government.

You mean the illegal regime in Kiev. Why should the ethnic Russians in Donbass require their permission to declare independence? Isn't the whole point of declaring independence to liberate people from such arbitary requirements?


If the people there want to be independent or join Russia, they should hold a referendum. Not invite another country's army in...and then deny they are actually there.

...and let's not pretend that these people are oppressed in the ethnically Russian portion of eastern Ukraine, or that Russia is there to "liberate" people.

They did hold a referendum, but, of course, the US and its puppets will not recognize the results. But the results of that referendum are consistent with the referendum results in 2010 when Yanukovych was voted into office by the millions of ethnic Russians living in Donbass and Crimea.

[Common Sense]

See? Right there. You just can't help yourself.

Dude...how the hell is that putting words in someone's mouth????

[Alyosha]

He says he doesn't believe they were involved. I made a sarcastic comment that his source must be Bob, RT or Putin. He says "I don't believe they were involved in conflict". It's pretty clear that they were.


It is not pretty clear that they were engaged in a military conflict. If they were it would be all over Ukrainian television and there would be tons of footage, or do you not think the Ukraine has TV?



Btw....I am an anti war westerner as well.


Could have fooled me. Can you define what you mean by "war" because you seem to find drone strikes on villages acceptable in other threads?

[Alyosha]

See? Right there. You just can't help yourself.

Yep. He doesn't see it.

[Common Sense]

Yep. He doesn't see it.

I don't see it because I didn't do it.

Jesus christ...I was making a concession.

Maybe you could call me bitch again if it would make you feel better.

[Common Sense]

It is not pretty clear that they were engaged in a military conflict. If they were it would be all over Ukrainian television and there would be tons of footage, or do you not think the Ukraine has TV?




Could have fooled me. Can you define what you mean by "war" because you seem to find drone strikes on villages acceptable in other threads?

LOL...I've already posted tons of footage, photographs and satellite imagery. I'm not going to post more.

Show me where I've found drone strikes to be acceptable. I'll wait.

[Mini Me]

I never felt we did enough to help the Russian economy transform to Captialism once the wall went down.

But we did!

We taught them how to raid State assets and coffers, hide income in foreign banks, create monopolies blessed by state sanction, and create a new class of klepto-capitalists ruled by Bad Vlad and the aristocracy of elite criminals, ruling over dirt poor peasants, drunken from Vodka.Vlad has his own cult of personality working for him. Free elections? Hahahah.

Russia is a third world shithole with nuclear missles, and its economy doesn't even equal that of Canada's.

[Alyosha]

I don't see it because I didn't do it.

Jesus christ...I was making a concession.

Maybe you could call me bitch again if it would make you feel better.

PMS alert. :rollseyes:

[Alyosha]

LOL...I've already posted tons of footage, photographs and satellite imagery. I'm not going to post more.

You've showed no footage of fighting. You posted tanks, people at a table, etc. During the Iraq war we saw tons of footage every day of conflict. If they've invaded they've done a shitty job of it OR the Ukraine doesn't care.

Why aren't they at the UN screaming with the footage so that everyone can see what brutality they are suffering from?

As for me, if Russian invaded the Ukraine I would be angry as hell. It is only my mother's side of the family that is Russian. My father was born in North Eastern Poland and we have family of Cossack lineage in the Ukraine.

I just think this more CIA bullshit like we pulled in Georgia. I know what war looks like and people in the Ukraine have smart phones, television reporters, and cameras like everywhere else.

If they invaded we would have a lot of footage.



Show me where I've found drone strikes to be acceptable. I'll wait.

In threads where people discuss Obama's use of drones you've made those wiggly statements along with the other apologists rather than outright condemn him and call for his arrest--which, by law, should have happened.

[Mini Me]

wow! How did a high school student get to meet a world leader?

Green Arrow knows high people in places(they don't want to be)! State prison!

[Common Sense]

PMS alert. :rollseyes:

Class act girl...

[Alyosha]

Class act girl...

http://www.cinemablend.com/images/news/41719/_1392787101.gif

[Common Sense]

http://www.cinemablend.com/images/news/41719/_1392787101.gif


Have a merry Christmas.

[Mini Me]

[QUOTE=exotix;887088]Maybe we can get Graham & McKook to go into hysterics calling for the invasion of North Korea ... oh wait, Graham more or less did ...

Russia has their own RWNJ, its Vladimir Zhirinofsky, a Russian Rethuglican, subject to insane rants and lapses of reason.

Vladimir Zhirinovsky sounds like a serious person on paper. He's a colonel in the Russian army, Vice-Chairman of the State Duma (the lower house of Russia’s legislature), a member of the Parliamentary Assembly Council of Europe, and, most notably, the founder and leader of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia. But a quick Google search reveals that he’s earned his reputation as the insane clown prince of Russian politics. When he ran for prime minister in 1993, his campaign promises included free vodka for men and better underwear (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/330115/ZHIRINOVSKY-WOULDNT-KEEP-HIS-PROMISES-MUSCOVITES-SAY.html?pg=all) for women. He’s throttled newscasters and state officials, told world leaders to suck Russian dick, and pontificated about enslaving the planet. A couple weeks ago, he called the Royal Baby a “bloodsucker,” (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/zhirinovsky-not-pleased-about-bloodsucking-royal-baby/483517.html) but he’s said far, far worse things. If his party ever managed to take control of the country, the world would be a much more terrifying place (thankfully, there's little chance of that).
And yet, even though he’s a belligerent, racist, sexist, homophobic, nationalist sociopath, you can’t help but admire his refusal to play politics as usual. With Zhirinovsky, you don’t get any fake smiles (or any smiles, period), or false promises, or two-faced diplomacy. He says what’s on his mind, even if what’s on his mind isn’t so much a political position as a violent, incoherent rant that can only be communicated through wild gestures. And that’s sort of endearing, in it’s own jaw-droppingly offensive kind of way.
For your entertainment pleasure, here are the Lib Dem leader’s Greatest Hits.
His Drunken Rant About Bush, the Iraq War, and Condoleezza Rice
One late night in 2002, so wasted he had to be propped up by two lackeys, he gave a riveting speech against the War in Iraq. He counseled Bush on his daddy issues, called America a “second-hand goods store” filled with “cocksuckers, handjobbers, and faggots,” and threatened to change the gravitational field of the Earth in order to sink the entire country.
If you skip to 5:16, you can listen to him call Bush an ignoramus who can’t count and say much, much worse things about Condoleezza Rice: “She is a black whore who needs a good cock. Send her here, one of our divisions will make her happy in the barracks one night. She will choke on Russian sperm as it will be leaking out of her ears... until she crawls to the US embassy in Moscow on her knees.”

For more of his thoughts on Condoleeza Rice, you can check out this article (http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/11-01-2006/9488-condoleezza-0/) from 2006, in which he offers her sympathetic advice:

“Condoleezza Rice released a coarse anti-Russian statement (http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/11-01-2006/9488-condoleezza-0/). This is because she is a single woman who has no children. She loses her reason because of her late single status […] If she has no man by her side at her age, he will never appear. Even if she had a whole selection of men to choose from she would stay single because her soul and heart have hardened. Like Napoleon, Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, or Alexander the Great of Macedon, Ms. Rice needs to fight and release tough public statements in global scale […] Condoleezza Rice needs a company of soldiers. She needs to be taken to barracks where she would be satisfied. On the other hand, she can hardly be satisfied because of her age. This is a complex. She needs to return to her university and teach students there. She could also deal with psychological analysis.”
His Explanation of Why Men Hate Women
On a popular Russian TV program, Zhirinovsky took upon himself the heavy task of revealing the harsh realities of gender relations to us poor, delusional women: “All men lie to you. When they tell you that they love you, it’s a lie... All men hate you, ladies, they hate you. Because you prevent men from thriving… This is why all the crimes committed in the world are women’s fault.”

As always, you have to appreciate his candor, if nothing else. When the female interviewer asks if his wife is happy he doesn’t miss a beat. “Of course not. How could she be happy? I ignore her,” he says, as though the interviewer is a moron for asking such a stupid question.
And yet, behind all of the women-bashing, he’s almost unintentionally making a feminist argument: If women were self-sufficient, they wouldn’t need the endless supply of furs and shoes that apparently drives men to their graves. And in 2006, Zhirinovsky proposed that polygamy be legalized in Russia. So that’s kind of open-minded. Kind of.
His Many, Many, Many Fights
It happens all the time. You’re watching footage from a Russian legislative session as people read documents, make boring speeches—then you recognize Zhirinovsky’s unmistakable bark. Within moments, papers are flying, officials are scrambling to get Zhirinovsky’s latest victim out of his death-grip headlock, and the presiding officer is making tired appeals to restore order in the chamber. Often, it takes more than a dozen people to restrain him. On televised programs, he often responds to someone disagreeing with him by pelting them with whatever is on the table, water bottles and stationary being his favorites. He’s spoken out about being bullied at school growing up, so perhaps it’s no wonder that he regresses to the problem-solving strategies of a rabid kindergardener, but he's the bully in practically all the situations he gets himself into these days. (The best fight in the legislature is between 2:37 and 5:01 in the video below, and his fight on a televised debate show is from 6:17 to 6:57. It’s in Russian, but just imagine the worst insults you can think of, and you’ll get the gist.)

BONUS ROUND:
In this video, Zhirinovsky tells his bodyguard to take his political opponent and shoot him in the corner.

His Hardcore Racism and Voldemort-esque Anti-Semitism
He’s been pretty frank about his hatred for Turks and people from the Caucasus Mountains, as well as his desire for the Chinese and Japanese to be deported from Russia. He’s warned America several times to be careful about turning the country over to the blacks. He wants to forcibly take back Alaska because it’ll be “a great place to keep the Ukranians.” In Zhirinovsky’s dream world, all of the former Soviet countries will get back together, the ethnic minorities will murder each other, Russians will rule, Georgians will serve as slaves, and the Baltic countries will be used for the dumping of nuclear waste. Oh, and they need to seize Afghanistan and the Middle East so that Russians have somewhere warm to go on vacation.
As for his own heritage, Zhirinovsky has long denied that there was any non-Russian blood in him, shrugging it off with the statement, “My mother is Russian, my father is a lawyer.” He finally stopped playing coy in his tantalizingly-named autobiography, Close Your Soul, Ivan (it shares a lot with Mein Kempf in terms of blaming all of history’s misfortune on the Jews), in which he revealed his father’s Jewishness but also said (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1446759.stm) that he wasn’t going to change his opinions just because of “that single drop of blood that my father left in my mother’s body.” Like his plan for world domination, his understanding of reproductive biology is fairly shaky.
His Awesome Ideas on How to Stop Epidemics
When the bird flu was spreading around the world in 2006, world leaders everywhere were scrambling and trying to figure out what to do. But Zhirinovsky, who is a man of action, came up with a simple solution: just shoot all the birds.
“This little song of theirs has to be broken,” he said. “No more migration to the north. They can stay in the south. We must shoot all the birds. We have to send all of our troops, from Sochi to the Crimea, and force migratory birds to stay where they are. This is not a joke!”

Diana Bruk is a freelance writer who was born in St. Petersburg, Russia, and raised in New York City. You can follow her on Twitter: @BrukDiana (https://twitter.com/BrukDiana)
More about Russia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ExfLOwmSD88

[Alyosha]

Have a merry Christmas.

I know this is the Canadian "bless your heart" but...

I would not want you not to have one, so Happy Holidays to you and yours.

[Common Sense]

I know this is the Canadian "bless your heart" but...

I would not want you not to have one, so Happy Holidays to you and yours.

It's not.

I'm trying to deescalate.

I do mean it.

I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you.

[Alyosha]

It's not.

I'm trying to deescalate.

I do mean it.

I wasn't trying to pick a fight with you.

Mine was a serious Happy Holidays, as well.

[Mini Me]

This is MAD VLAD!

https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQrpH1gvWTcEl1OvXgioYT-YnZCMYjt8Ppy_TVFCtXC5BBHfUUR

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRpkBT9hOM_veYhm3qJ5paxPtu-WBTN-IPFBsM-XBh4nscMQnaNog

[Alyosha]

Well there you have it! We should nuke them now before it spreads to the US and other white nations.

[Mini Me]

I hate it when I sound like a leftists but it's true: all this claptrap rights and democracy is a tool of imperialists.

Hey, its ok, man. You can talk like a lefty anytime you want to. Or even admit you are a closet lefty.

We are all friends here. There is no hole for righties. You are protected.

[Alyosha]

What's funny about the Poot is that conservatives were all hot and bothered about him 6-12 months ago.

You know, stuff like "now THAT's a leader!" and "Pooty is playing chess while Obama is playing marbles" -- stuff like that.

Now his economy is in tatters.. Oh how the mighty have fallen. :)
Bo-4

so when our economy was in shatters were you out there berating Barak and calling him an asswipe? Bet you weren't. Statists tend to be "Stand by Yer Man".

[Mini Me]

It was 15 seconds long and no commercial, but if you insist:

House Intelligence Committee Chairman Mike Rogers (R-Mich.) gushed (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/playing-marbles), “Putin is playing chess and I think we are playing marbles.” Rudy Giuliani said (http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/rallying-around-the-wrong-president) of Putin, “That’s what you call a leader.” Even Mitt Romney hailed (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/54167728#54167728) the Russian autocrat: “I think Putin has outperformed our president time and time again on the world stage.”

And on.. and on ... and ON.

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/116859/putin-envy-and-american-conservatives

Forty years ago that kind of talk would have been called TREASON! And the Rethugs would have yelled the loudest!

[Alyosha]

Forty years ago that kind of talk would have been called TREASON! And the Rethugs would have yelled the loudest!

It's probably also the reasons for the sanctions. Barak has a problem with his ego being challenged. Oh well, statists gotta state...

[Mini Me]

I have no qualms admitting that I respect Putin. He's certainly far from perfect, but he does project an aura of strong leadership and he's a traditionalist, both aspects I like.

His image is all choreographed and manufactured. Its Bullshit for the masses of sheeple.

He is a Kleptocrat.

[Common Sense]

It's probably also the reasons for the sanctions. Barak has a problem with his ego being challenged. Oh well, statists gotta state...

To be fair, all the other NATO countries are involved with sanctions as well.

There seems to be this notion that it's all about Obama. Certainly Canada's sanctions against Russia stem from Russia's actions and not Obama.

[Mac-7]

What's funny about the Poot is that conservatives were all hot and bothered about him 6-12 months ago.



Only in the fantasy world that lefties live in.

Conservative compared the rugged image of Putin with the weak US president and wished we had a real man looking after US interests.

But no one ever said Putin was anything other than a thug and a bully.

[Alyosha]

To be fair, all the other NATO countries are involved with sanctions as well.

Where was the Ukraine on the world stage in all of this? Did they come to the UN and plead as the US did before the Iraq war? There has barely been anything from them, you don't find that suspicious?

If Mexico crossed the border into the US there would be outright war, there would be video there would be the President all over television, there would be so much video you couldn't take your eyes off of it.

Forgive me if my trust after "Yellowcake" and "WMDs" and this shit with Qaddafi and Assad is gone. I'm one of those, fool me once and "fuck you". I'm not "fool me once, okay-okay, you can fool me again."

[Mac-7]

What good is done by harming the people of a nation because you don't like their government. What bloodthirsty $#@!s you all are.

How is America harming the Cuban people?

We don't trade with them but Cuba has full access to the rest of the world and should be more than capable of providing for themselves without US assistance.

[Alyosha]

Where is Israel on this list? How about Saudi Arabia or China for human rights abuses?

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Pages/Programs.aspx

I've seen more missiles and rockets hit Palestinians and Syrians this year than Ukrainians. Where are the sanctions? Looks like to me like the nation that did that got aid from our countries.

[Mac-7]

Where is Israel on this list? How about Saudi Arabia or China for human rights abuses?

http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/sanctions/Programs/Pages/Programs.aspx

I've seen more missiles and rockets hit Palestinians and Syrians this year than Ukrainians. Where are the sanctions? Looks like to me like the nation that did that got aid from our countries.

Israel is only defending its people from Arab terrorists.

[Matty]

How is America harming the Cuban people?

We don't trade with them but Cuba has full access to the rest of the world and should be more than capable of providing for themselves without US assistance.
We aren't. It's bullshit leftist propaganda! We do not owe Cuba a damn thing.

[Mini Me]

Do you honestly not realise that those two energy companies contribute grossly to the prosperity of Russia and stability of the Russian government? What do you believe the purpose of sanctions are? I have to wonder if you just pretending to be stupid so that you can trick the uniformed with this anti-Russian propaganda or if you're just that clueless as to what sanctions are.

No, don't answer. At this point, I have gained the realisation that you're intellectually in over your head and just fall upon sarcasm to cover up for it. I'm done with this nonsense. Continue with Mister D if he so chooses, I'll have none of this lowbrow excuse for political dialogue.

"Above the fray"

Gotta keep the peasants at arms length!

You might catch their disease.

[Mini Me]

You don't get it because you don't understand Russian culture.

Russian culture is hard, brutal, and short. Hobbesian. Always has been. Cold and harsh like its climate. And it likes tough guys for its leaders, who chose to go down with the ship.

[Mini Me]

http://www.state.gov/e/eb/tfs/spi/ukrainerussia/



The sanctions are there, along with increased production from OPEC, and high output from Texas and American based companies to destroy Russia's energy production and boost our own.

Because...we care so much about Ukrainian sovereignty. It must make them tear up, this outpouring of love we show them.

I hate sanctions! Its warfare against innocent people!

The people of Russia deserve a lot better.

[Matty]

In every thread where "Russia" is in the title or has anything at all to do with it, you condemn that country for things that yours and mine do--what is that if not contempt, and what is contempt but hate?


Aly, Sweetie! Didn't you once tell us Russians hated Americans? I have no hatred for Russians so where do they get this hatred for us? Same with I think it was Switzerland, they hate us too. Why? Are Americans just in the world to be hated? Alyosha?

[Alyosha]

Aly, Sweetie! Didn't you once tell us Russians hated Americans? I have no hatred for Russians so where do they get this hatred for us? Same with I think it was Switzerland, they hate us too. Why? Are Americans just in the world to be hated? @Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863)?

I said the Swiss hate Americans. I said the Russians dislike outsiders or are fearful of outsiders. No, they don't hate Americans. They dislike our government now, however, but just like others they are fascinated with rap music.

[Peter1469]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkB9OT2XVvA

[Peter1469]

:shocked:
[QUOTE=exotix;887088]Maybe we can get Graham & McKook to go into hysterics calling for the invasion of North Korea ... oh wait, Graham more or less did ...

Russia has their own RWNJ, its Vladimir Zhirinofsky, a Russian Rethuglican, subject to insane rants and lapses of reason.

Vladimir Zhirinovsky sounds like a serious person on paper. He's a colonel in the Russian army, Vice-Chairman of the State Duma (the lower house of Russia’s legislature), a member of the Parliamentary Assembly Council of Europe, and, most notably, the founder and leader of the Liberal Democratic Party of Russia. But a quick Google search reveals that he’s earned his reputation as the insane clown prince of Russian politics. When he ran for prime minister in 1993, his campaign promises included free vodka for men and better underwear (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/330115/ZHIRINOVSKY-WOULDNT-KEEP-HIS-PROMISES-MUSCOVITES-SAY.html?pg=all) for women. He’s throttled newscasters and state officials, told world leaders to suck Russian dick, and pontificated about enslaving the planet. A couple weeks ago, he called the Royal Baby a “bloodsucker,” (http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/zhirinovsky-not-pleased-about-bloodsucking-royal-baby/483517.html) but he’s said far, far worse things. If his party ever managed to take control of the country, the world would be a much more terrifying place (thankfully, there's little chance of that).
And yet, even though he’s a belligerent, racist, sexist, homophobic, nationalist sociopath, you can’t help but admire his refusal to play politics as usual. With Zhirinovsky, you don’t get any fake smiles (or any smiles, period), or false promises, or two-faced diplomacy. He says what’s on his mind, even if what’s on his mind isn’t so much a political position as a violent, incoherent rant that can only be communicated through wild gestures. And that’s sort of endearing, in it’s own jaw-droppingly offensive kind of way.
For your entertainment pleasure, here are the Lib Dem leader’s Greatest Hits.
His Drunken Rant About Bush, the Iraq War, and Condoleezza Rice
One late night in 2002, so wasted he had to be propped up by two lackeys, he gave a riveting speech against the War in Iraq. He counseled Bush on his daddy issues, called America a “second-hand goods store” filled with “cocksuckers, handjobbers, and faggots,” and threatened to change the gravitational field of the Earth in order to sink the entire country.
If you skip to 5:16, you can listen to him call Bush an ignoramus who can’t count and say much, much worse things about Condoleezza Rice: “She is a black whore who needs a good cock. Send her here, one of our divisions will make her happy in the barracks one night. She will choke on Russian sperm as it will be leaking out of her ears... until she crawls to the US embassy in Moscow on her knees.”

For more of his thoughts on Condoleeza Rice, you can check out this article (http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/11-01-2006/9488-condoleezza-0/) from 2006, in which he offers her sympathetic advice:
“Condoleezza Rice released a coarse anti-Russian statement (http://english.pravda.ru/russia/politics/11-01-2006/9488-condoleezza-0/). This is because she is a single woman who has no children. She loses her reason because of her late single status […] If she has no man by her side at her age, he will never appear. Even if she had a whole selection of men to choose from she would stay single because her soul and heart have hardened. Like Napoleon, Genghis Khan, Tamerlane, or Alexander the Great of Macedon, Ms. Rice needs to fight and release tough public statements in global scale […] Condoleezza Rice needs a company of soldiers. She needs to be taken to barracks where she would be satisfied. On the other hand, she can hardly be satisfied because of her age. This is a complex. She needs to return to her university and teach students there. She could also deal with psychological analysis.”

His Explanation of Why Men Hate Women
On a popular Russian TV program, Zhirinovsky took upon himself the heavy task of revealing the harsh realities of gender relations to us poor, delusional women: “All men lie to you. When they tell you that they love you, it’s a lie... All men hate you, ladies, they hate you. Because you prevent men from thriving… This is why all the crimes committed in the world are women’s fault.”

As always, you have to appreciate his candor, if nothing else. When the female interviewer asks if his wife is happy he doesn’t miss a beat. “Of course not. How could she be happy? I ignore her,” he says, as though the interviewer is a moron for asking such a stupid question.
And yet, behind all of the women-bashing, he’s almost unintentionally making a feminist argument: If women were self-sufficient, they wouldn’t need the endless supply of furs and shoes that apparently drives men to their graves. And in 2006, Zhirinovsky proposed that polygamy be legalized in Russia. So that’s kind of open-minded. Kind of.
His Many, Many, Many Fights
It happens all the time. You’re watching footage from a Russian legislative session as people read documents, make boring speeches—then you recognize Zhirinovsky’s unmistakable bark. Within moments, papers are flying, officials are scrambling to get Zhirinovsky’s latest victim out of his death-grip headlock, and the presiding officer is making tired appeals to restore order in the chamber. Often, it takes more than a dozen people to restrain him. On televised programs, he often responds to someone disagreeing with him by pelting them with whatever is on the table, water bottles and stationary being his favorites. He’s spoken out about being bullied at school growing up, so perhaps it’s no wonder that he regresses to the problem-solving strategies of a rabid kindergardener, but he's the bully in practically all the situations he gets himself into these days. (The best fight in the legislature is between 2:37 and 5:01 in the video below, and his fight on a televised debate show is from 6:17 to 6:57. It’s in Russian, but just imagine the worst insults you can think of, and you’ll get the gist.)

BONUS ROUND:
In this video, Zhirinovsky tells his bodyguard to take his political opponent and shoot him in the corner.

His Hardcore Racism and Voldemort-esque Anti-Semitism
He’s been pretty frank about his hatred for Turks and people from the Caucasus Mountains, as well as his desire for the Chinese and Japanese to be deported from Russia. He’s warned America several times to be careful about turning the country over to the blacks. He wants to forcibly take back Alaska because it’ll be “a great place to keep the Ukranians.” In Zhirinovsky’s dream world, all of the former Soviet countries will get back together, the ethnic minorities will murder each other, Russians will rule, Georgians will serve as slaves, and the Baltic countries will be used for the dumping of nuclear waste. Oh, and they need to seize Afghanistan and the Middle East so that Russians have somewhere warm to go on vacation.
As for his own heritage, Zhirinovsky has long denied that there was any non-Russian blood in him, shrugging it off with the statement, “My mother is Russian, my father is a lawyer.” He finally stopped playing coy in his tantalizingly-named autobiography, Close Your Soul, Ivan (it shares a lot with Mein Kempf in terms of blaming all of history’s misfortune on the Jews), in which he revealed his father’s Jewishness but also said (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1446759.stm) that he wasn’t going to change his opinions just because of “that single drop of blood that my father left in my mother’s body.” Like his plan for world domination, his understanding of reproductive biology is fairly shaky.
His Awesome Ideas on How to Stop Epidemics
When the bird flu was spreading around the world in 2006, world leaders everywhere were scrambling and trying to figure out what to do. But Zhirinovsky, who is a man of action, came up with a simple solution: just shoot all the birds.
“This little song of theirs has to be broken,” he said. “No more migration to the north. They can stay in the south. We must shoot all the birds. We have to send all of our troops, from Sochi to the Crimea, and force migratory birds to stay where they are. This is not a joke!”

Diana Bruk is a freelance writer who was born in St. Petersburg, Russia, and raised in New York City. You can follow her on Twitter: @BrukDiana (https://twitter.com/BrukDiana)
More about Russia:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ExfLOwmSD88

[texan]

A new Cold War is not possible. That would take two global powers. Russia is a regional power.


Being regional has nothiing to do with it.................The definition fits. Iran, China, NK and Russia are all trying to destroy us and in some cases working together. As long as we continue to duck our responsibilty on stopping our crazy ass spending habits this will continue.

A cold war or cold warfare is a state of conflict between nations that does not involve direct military action but is pursued primarily through economic and political actions, propaganda (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Propaganda), acts of espionage (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Espionage) or proxy wars (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Proxy_war) waged by surrogates. The surrogates are typically states that are "satellites (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Satellite_state)" of the conflicting nations, i.e., nations allied to them or under their political influence. Opponents in a cold war will often provide economic or military aid, such as weapons, tactical support or military advisors, to lesser nations involved in conflicts with the opposing country. Wiki

[Peter1469]

We are seeing a return to Great Power politics pre- WWI.

There is no new cold war.
Being regional has nothiing to do with it.................The definition fits. Iran, China, NK and Russia are all trying to destroy us and in some cases working together. As long as we continue to duck our responsibilty on stopping our crazy ass spending habits this will continue.

A cold war or cold warfare is a state of conflict between nations that does not involve direct military action but is pursued primarily through economic and political actions, propaganda (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Propaganda), acts of espionage (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Espionage) or proxy wars (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Proxy_war) waged by surrogates. The surrogates are typically states that are "satellites (http://thepoliticalforums.com/wiki/Satellite_state)" of the conflicting nations, i.e., nations allied to them or under their political influence. Opponents in a cold war will often provide economic or military aid, such as weapons, tactical support or military advisors, to lesser nations involved in conflicts with the opposing country. Wiki

[Mini Me]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rkB9OT2XVvA

The Singing Russian. This guy will creep you out!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kExDqgW2f1Q&feature=player_detailpage

[donttread]

Follow the money. Who gains from reviving the Cold War Hoax?

[Peter1469]

Follow the money. Who gains from reviving the Cold War Hoax?

The defense industry.

[donttread]

The defense industry.

And the politicians they own. As a bonus more fodder for campaign rhetoric to distract the sheep from the real issues.

[Mac-7]

The defense industry.

During the Cold War American workers had good jobs and rising incomes.

The defense industry contributed to some of that while giving our soldiers the best weapons in the world.

[Peter1469]

During the Cold War American workers had good jobs and rising incomes.

The defense industry contributed to some of that while giving our soldiers the best weapons in the world.

Which may be why the defense industry wants to fool you people into thinking that the Cold War has returned. :smiley:

You can believe what you want, but it has not returned.

[Mac-7]

Which may be why the defense industry wants to fool you people into thinking that the Cold War has returned. :smiley:

You can believe what you want, but it has not returned.

I have not spoken to the defense industry lately.

Is that what they're telling you?

[PolWatch]

Which may be why the defense industry wants to fool you people into thinking that the Cold War has returned. :smiley:

You can believe what you want, but it has not returned.

For the Cold War to 'return' we would have to see the USSR re-emerge (with $$$) and for the American public to innocently believe everything our government tells us. I don't see either condition as likely.

[Peter1469]

For the Cold War to 'return' we would have to see the USSR re-emerge (with $$$) and for the American public to innocently believe everything our government tells us. I don't see either condition as likely.

Right. Currently Russia is at best a regional power.

[PolWatch]

I don't see the Russian people going backwards to USSR conditions. I don't see where Russia would be able to buy the support of other nations without lots of money....and that doesn't even take the cost of rebuilding their forces & equipment into account.

[Bo-4]

@Bo-4 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1297)

so when our economy was in shatters were you out there berating Barak and calling him an asswipe? Bet you weren't. Statists tend to be "Stand by Yer Man".
@Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863)

Our recession was officially over in June of '09 four months after Baracky took office so not much opportunity for berating anyone.

Additionally our circumstances were never as dire as what the Bear Wrassler now faces.

Question: Do YOU admire the Poot, and if so why?

[donttread]

During the Cold War American workers had good jobs and rising incomes.

The defense industry contributed to some of that while giving our soldiers the best weapons in the world.

If war of any kind was the economic answer the problem would of solved over the past 12 years

[donttread]

For the Cold War to 'return' we would have to see the USSR re-emerge (with $$$) and for the American public to innocently believe everything our government tells us. I don't see either condition as likely.

It was a hoax to begin with so will be it's return

[Common Sense]

It was a hoax to begin with so will be it's return

The Cold war was a hoax?

[Peter1469]

The Cold War was real.

[Alyosha]

@Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863)

Our recession was officially over in June of '09 four months after Baracky took office so not much opportunity for berating anyone.

Tell that to all the long term jobless. We played with those numbers. The US has not bounced back and there are multiple reasons for this.




Additionally our circumstances were never as dire as what the Bear Wrassler now faces.


Nope, and would not be we've been stabilized since Standard Oil.



Question: Do YOU admire the Poot, and if so why?

Do I? I can admire many people for many reasons and not care for them or want a ruler. I don't believe in centralized states. I admire how he's pulled Russia out of the clutches of western pirates. I admire that he didn't bend to the western banking system. If you had to have a leader, its nice to have one that puts your people first and doesn't sell it out to globalists.

But, the problem is to accomplish these things with government/state you must exert force.

All states use force and force is wrong because it turns the will of the 51% into that of criminal terror over the 49% that does not agree.

I remain anti-statist.

[Peter1469]

The recession never ended. The only thing keeping us out of a depression is debt spending.

[Ethereal]

Right. Currently Russia is at best a regional power.

Again, they have ICBMs and nuclear subs that can deploy them virtually anywhere in the world. Russia is the only other country besides the US to possess a nuclear triad of long-range bombers, silos/mobile platforms, and subs, and their eastern border is fifty-five miles from Alaska at the narrowest point in the Bering Straight. Russia is not as powerful as the US, but they are still a "global" power.

[Peter1469]

Again, they have ICBMs and nuclear subs that can deploy them virtually anywhere in the world. Russia is the only other country besides the US to possess a nuclear triad of long-range bombers, silos/mobile platforms, and subs, and their eastern border is fifty-five miles from Alaska at the narrowest point in the Bering Straight. Russia is not as powerful as the US, but they are still a "global" power.

I hear you.

Their nuclear capability may make them a global power- but only in the context of existential threats. In day to day diplomacy, Russia is only a regional power. No state treats them as a global power- which ticks the Russians off to no end.

[Alyosha]

I hear you.

Their nuclear capability may make them a global power- but only in the context of existential threats. In day to day diplomacy, Russia is only a regional power. No state treats them as a global power- which ticks the Russians off to no end.


Considering that our military spending is equal to that of the entire rest of the world combined we're the only evil empire left on the planet.

Why are we sanctioning others with no sanctions coming back to us? Because we scare the shit out of everyone else.

[Mister D]

I think Peter is right that no nation can currently project power quite like the US. not even close, actually. You can argue about the terms but the difference is huge.

[Mister D]

The Cold War was real.

The 20th Century was all an elaborate ruse. It's still 1899. Sheeple. :rollseyes:

[Ethereal]

I hear you.

Their nuclear capability may make them a global power- but only in the context of existential threats. In day to day diplomacy, Russia is only a regional power. No state treats them as a global power- which ticks the Russians off to no end.

But "day-to-day diplomacy" no longer applies as many Russians see western aggression as an "existential threat".

Poll: Russians Fear the United States More than ISIS-Type Terrorists (http://reason.com/blog/2014/10/27/russians-fear-the-united-states-more-tha)

[Alyosha]

I think Peter is right that no nation can currently project power quite like the US. not even close, actually. You can argue about the terms but the difference is huge.

I don't think I've ever argued that the US is not the lone superpower left, but the country with the most nukes is not simply a regional power. If they were ever dumb enough for mutually assured destruction the globe would be a cinder.

This is not the point, however, because we don't expect that to happen. The US is the last man standing and our military might is like nothing the world has ever seen. We scare the shit out everyone--deservedly because we do what we want, when we want, and that should cause everyone to sit back and ask: Why are we shaking over Putin?

Iraq
Afghanistan
Uganda (yes, we put boots on the ground in 2012)
Egypt
Libya
Yemen
Pakistan
--almost Syria

Who exactly is the aggressor today?

[Ethereal]

I think Peter is right that no nation can currently project power quite like the US. not even close, actually. You can argue about the terms but the difference is huge.

I never said otherwise. My disagreement is over their alleged status as a "regional" and not a "global" power.

[Bob]

I don't think I've ever argued that the US is not the lone superpower left, but the country with the most nukes is not simply a regional power. If they were ever dumb enough for mutually assured destruction the globe would be a cinder.

This is not the point, however, because we don't expect that to happen. The US is the last man standing and our military might is like nothing the world has ever seen. We scare the shit out everyone--deservedly because we do what we want, when we want, and that should cause everyone to sit back and ask: Why are we shaking over Putin?

Iraq
Afghanistan
Uganda (yes, we put boots on the ground in 2012)
Egypt
Libya
Yemen
Pakistan
--almost Syria

Who exactly is the aggressor today?

When one is called a super power, one can use Iraq as a prime example.

During WW2, this country had a truly awesome military Machine. The America of 1944 had millions of troops. It had a vast fleet of ships. By 1945, it had the A bomb and used it. It had an enormous Air Force. Today our Air force is tiny compared.

So, we call ours today a super power. Is it the nuclear bombs we have not used since 1945?

Again look at the speed Tommy Franks displayed to take out Iraq. Iran spent years trying to defeat Saddam.

A super power must be used or it is just potential.

Would America of 2014 defeat America of 1945?

I seriously doubt it.

Any comments Peter1469?

[Mister D]

I don't think I've ever argued that the US is not the lone superpower left, but the country with the most nukes is not simply a regional power. If they were ever dumb enough for mutually assured destruction the globe would be a cinder.

This is not the point, however, because we don't expect that to happen. The US is the last man standing and our military might is like nothing the world has ever seen. We scare the $#@! out everyone--deservedly because we do what we want, when we want, and that should cause everyone to sit back and ask: Why are we shaking over Putin?

Iraq
Afghanistan
Uganda (yes, we put boots on the ground in 2012)
Egypt
Libya
Yemen
Pakistan
--almost Syria

Who exactly is the aggressor today?

I'm not defending the US and I don't blame the Russians for feeling threatened. one need only observe this forum for a while to see how hostile Americans are to a land and a people they still associate with films like Red Dawn. That said, what does a being a global power entail if not the ability to project power globally? Calling Russia a "regional power" isn't a slap at Russia but rather an acknowledgment of its limits. Would you say the Russia of today is like the Russia of 1960? Of course not. It has nothing like the global influence and operational capabilities it once had.

[Mister D]

I never said otherwise. My disagreement is over their alleged status as a "regional" and not a "global" power.

I didn't say you did.

So is mine.

[Alyosha]

I'm not defending the US and I don't blame the Russians for feeling threatened. one need only observe this forum for a while to see how hostile Americans are to a land and a people they still associate with films like Red Dawn. That said, what does a being a global power entail if not the ability to project power globally? Calling Russia a "regional power" isn't a slap at Russia but rather an acknowledgment of its limits. Would you say the Russia of today is like the Russia of 1960? Of course not. It has nothing like the global influence and operational capabilities it once had.

I think we're crossing and missing, somehow. I acknowledged the US a superior force, but to say that Russia or China couldn't, if they felt like it, wage wars on the same group of idiots we've had is likewise wrong.

The question on whether a country is is a global or regional force is really situational. What Peter is saying is that the US is superior to Russia militarily. This is unquestioned. A war between our two nations without nukes would end in a long, ugly fight where we win.

However Russia could by itself take over any number of countries in the west that are not the United States if they had only themselves to defend it.

He reiterates my point which is that we're the lone superpower.

[Bob]

I'm not defending the US and I don't blame the Russians for feeling threatened. one need only observe this forum for a while to see how hostile Americans are to a land and a people they still associate with films like Red Dawn. That said, what does a being a global power entail if not the ability to project power globally? Calling Russia a "regional power" isn't a slap at Russia but rather an acknowledgment of its limits. Would you say the Russia of today is like the Russia of 1960? Of course not. It has nothing like the global influence and operational capabilities it once had.

Red Dawn if you recall took place in America.

If one nation has a small navy, a small military force, but the navy is Nuclear Submarines and air craft carriers with super aircraft, one can call that nation a superpower. But if any nation has defense to blow up those submarines and ships, as Russia can, can't it too be a superpower?

To clarify, this country greatly reduced the number of first class war ships able to beat any country.

Maybe we can beat all of them, but at what cost? I doubt Russia simply decided they needed no defense at all.

[Common Sense]

I don't think I've ever argued that the US is not the lone superpower left, but the country with the most nukes is not simply a regional power. If they were ever dumb enough for mutually assured destruction the globe would be a cinder.

This is not the point, however, because we don't expect that to happen. The US is the last man standing and our military might is like nothing the world has ever seen. We scare the $#@! out everyone--deservedly because we do what we want, when we want, and that should cause everyone to sit back and ask: Why are we shaking over Putin?

Iraq
Afghanistan
Uganda (yes, we put boots on the ground in 2012)
Egypt
Libya
Yemen
Pakistan
--almost Syria

Who exactly is the aggressor today?

Lists are fun because anyone can make one...


Post Soviet Conflicts.

Civil war in Tajikistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war_in_Tajikistan)

First Chechen War

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War)War of Dagestan

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Dagestan)Second Chechen War

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War)War in Ingushetia

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Ingushetia)Insurgency in the North Caucasus

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency_in_the_North_Caucasus)War in Abkhazia (1992–93)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Abkhazia_%281992%E2%80%9393%29)Russo-Georgian War

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War)Transnistria War

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria_War)War in Donbass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbass)[/URL] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria_War) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Abkhazia_%281992%E2%80%9393%29) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Ingushetia)[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War"]
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Dagestan)

[Alyosha]

Lists are fun because anyone can make one...


Post Soviet Conflicts.

Civil war in Tajikistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war_in_Tajikistan)

First Chechen War

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War)War of Dagestan

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Dagestan)Second Chechen War

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War)War in Ingushetia

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Ingushetia)Insurgency in the North Caucasus

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency_in_the_North_Caucasus)War in Abkhazia (1992–93)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Abkhazia_(1992–93))Russo-Georgian War

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War)Transnistria War

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria_War)War in Donbass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbass)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War)



All conflicts in Russian speaking former Soviet nations where street signs are still in Russian Cyrillic, where ethnic Russians still live, where there were terror attacks likewise prompting conflict, and also where Russian received condemnation on the world stage and did not have to strong arm a "coalition of the willing" to assist in dismantling the elected government of a foreign sovereign nation.

The US crosses oceans to perform its feats of wonder, does it not? We invade nations with no historical ties, with no ethnic ties, against people whose language and culture we have no understanding of, and use the pretense of "freedom" to smooth over any ill feelings.

Another profound difference is that Russia has never made any pretense of being a light on the hill, a bastion of liberty and freedom. It has always maintained it is pro-Russia, pro-Russian interests. We're the ones who claim to love liberty, love freedom, and to cherish morality all while allowing our letter agencies to be immoral and lead us into immoral conflict.

I want better for the United States because we were founded on brilliant principles that were admittedly better than the founders felt they, themselves, were at that time. We can do better and should and if we Americans don't hold our nation to a higher standard how can we expect other nations who fear us to do so?

[Peter1469]

Could Russia invade Switzerland and sustain a large combat force there indefinitely?

[Common Sense]

Could Russia invade Switzerland and sustain a large combat force there indefinitely?

They would have to roll through the Ukraine, Hungary and Austria first.

[Green Arrow]

Lists are fun because anyone can make one...


Post Soviet Conflicts.

Civil war in Tajikistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_war_in_Tajikistan)

First Chechen War

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War)War of Dagestan

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_Dagestan)Second Chechen War

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Chechen_War)War in Ingushetia

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Ingushetia)Insurgency in the North Caucasus

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insurgency_in_the_North_Caucasus)War in Abkhazia (1992–93)

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Abkhazia_(1992–93))Russo-Georgian War

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russo-Georgian_War)Transnistria War

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transnistria_War)War in Donbass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Donbass)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Chechen_War)

All regional conflicts that affected Russia. None of the US's conflicts were regional and none save for maybe Afghanistan actually affected the US.

[Mister D]

Could Russia invade Switzerland and sustain a large combat force there indefinitely?

That's just it. They could have before but there has certainly been a substantial reduction in her ability to project force. The US, on the other hand, could project force almost anywhere on short notice. That's why the US is, IMO, a true "global" power.

[Alyosha]

Could Russia invade Switzerland and sustain a large combat force there indefinitely?

If no one helped Switzerland? Yes. The Swiss may have guns but the guns they have lack the ammunition that the Russians have and the firepower. They are also "softer" people.

[Alyosha]

They would have to roll through the Ukraine, Hungary and Austria first.

There is this thing called "airplanes" and they allow you to distribute bombs and shit without rolling through anywhere. :wink:

[Peter1469]

They would have to roll through the Ukraine, Hungary and Austria first.

And the answer is no. They could not.

Russia is not a global power.

[Peter1469]

There is this thing called "airplanes" and they allow you to distribute bombs and shit without rolling through anywhere. :wink:

You can't win a war from the air. Ignore the air force people who tell you otherwise. :smiley:

[Common Sense]

There is this thing called "airplanes" and they allow you to distribute bombs and $#@! without rolling through anywhere. :wink:

Air planes? I'm in Canada, we don't have those yet.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

All conflicts in Russian speaking former Soviet nations where street signs are still in Russian Cyrillic, where ethnic Russians still live, where there were terror attacks likewise prompting conflict, and also where Russian received condemnation on the world stage and did not have to strong arm a "coalition of the willing" to assist in dismantling the elected government of a foreign sovereign nation.

The US crosses oceans to perform its feats of wonder, does it not? We invade nations with no historical ties, with no ethnic ties, against people whose language and culture we have no understanding of, and use the pretense of "freedom" to smooth over any ill feelings.

Another profound difference is that Russia has never made any pretense of being a light on the hill, a bastion of liberty and freedom. It has always maintained it is pro-Russia, pro-Russian interests. We're the ones who claim to love liberty, love freedom, and to cherish morality all while allowing our letter agencies to be immoral and lead us into immoral conflict.

I want better for the United States because we were founded on brilliant principles that were admittedly better than the founders felt they, themselves, were at that time. We can do better and should and if we Americans don't hold our nation to a higher standard how can we expect other nations who fear us to do so?

All regional conflicts that affected Russia. None of the US's conflicts were regional and none save for maybe Afghanistan actually affected the US.
I can't help but feel you two are a little soft on imperialism where it isn't American imperialism ...

[Bob]

You can't win a war from the air. Ignore the air force people who tell you otherwise. :smiley:

LMAO

When infantry is so beseiged, hunkering down behind cover, praying the next bullet does not have their name on it, hear the pop pop of the bullets fly over .... they sure want one of those damned Wart Hogs to show up.

Suddenly they want to be saved from the air.

I heard this AM I think it was.... the A-10 Wart Hog is saved. I was surprised but the guy saying it was a 3 star in the Air Force national guard.

[Peter1469]

LMAO

When infantry is so beseiged, hunkering down behind cover, praying the next bullet does not have their name on it, hear the pop pop of the bullets fly over .... they sure want one of those damned Wart Hogs to show up.

Suddenly they want to be saved from the air.

I heard this AM I think it was.... the A-10 Wart Hog is saved. I was surprised but the guy saying it was a 3 star in the Air Force national guard.

I meant that air power alone can't win a war. Because you have to control territory. That requires men on the ground.

[Bob]

http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Peter1469 http://thepoliticalforums.com/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://thepoliticalforums.com/showthread.php?p=888268#post888268)
Could Russia invade Switzerland and sustain a large combat force there indefinitely?


If no one helped Switzerland? Yes. The Swiss may have guns but the guns they have lack the ammunition that the Russians have and the firepower. They are also "softer" people.

Russia had easier access to Afghanistan and could not pull it off.

Besides, no doubt Switzerland would be aided.

[Bob]

I meant that air power alone can't win a war. Because you have to control territory. That requires men on the ground.

Which is why I LMAO. Obama is trying that flawed tactic right now.

[Green Arrow]

I can't help but feel you two are a little soft on imperialism where it isn't American imperialism ...

American imperialism is soft imperialism. It's like doing something halfway. I detest it.

I won't condemn the Romans, however, and instead admire them.

[Alyosha]

I can't help but feel you two are a little soft on imperialism where it isn't American imperialism ...

I am pretty consistently against sanctions and hypocritical placing of sanctions Gerrard Winstanley as they only ever hurt common people and in our case are pretty hypocritical to boot.

I also don't really fully 100% believe the news media on this one. When Gaza was hit we had video after video after video. In this instance we have pictures of tanks on a road which could be any time. Nothing from Ukrainian television that shows the type of fighting which happens with invasion and a pretty sloppy Ukrainian election which benefited the west and our dreams of putting nukes in Europe again.

I think we need a new Cold War because it allows our DOD contractors to make money without having to engage troops.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

American imperialism is soft imperialism. It's like doing something halfway. I detest it.

I won't condemn the Romans, however, and instead admire them.
So you'd admire American imperialism if the Feds were honest about it?

[Gerrard Winstanley]

I am pretty consistently against sanctions and hypocritical placing of sanctions @Gerrard Winstanley (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=864) as they only ever hurt common people and in our case are pretty hypocritical to boot.
Agreed.

I also don't really fully 100% believe the news media on this one. When Gaza was hit we had video after video after video. In this instance we have pictures of tanks on a road which could be any time.
The Russian military presence in Donbass is well-documented. You'll find plenty of combat footage on YT.

Nothing from Ukrainian television that shows the type of fighting which happens with invasion and a pretty sloppy Ukrainian election which benefited the west
Maybe because 'the West' is genuinely popular in Ukraine (http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/poll-ukrainian-public-split-over-eu-customs-union-options-332470.html)? There's majority support for some sort of EU customs union even in the East.

and our dreams of putting nukes in Europe again.
This talking point seems to be popular with the RT crowd. It disregards the fact Ukraine would never be allowed into NATO in the first place.

I think we need a new Cold War because it allows our DOD contractors to make money without having to engage troops.
Or because the Russian state wants to keep its former provinces locked up under permanent satellite serfdom?

[Green Arrow]

So you'd admire American imperialism if the Feds were honest about it?

No, but I would if we were engaging in hardcimperialism rather than soft imperialism. None of this nonsense where we drop troops in a place for twenty years and force other countries along for the ride. Nope. Walk in, take out the trash in six months or less, claim the territory as a new state or protectorate, and then clean it up.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

No, but I would if we were engaging in hardcimperialism rather than soft imperialism. None of this nonsense where we drop troops in a place for twenty years and force other countries along for the ride. Nope. Walk in, take out the trash in six months or less, claim the territory as a new state or protectorate, and then clean it up.
Honest presentation doesn't stop it being the same thing. I don't care for cute facades.

[Green Arrow]

Honest presentation doesn't stop it being the same thing. I don't care for cute facades.

What is so bad about the sort of imperialism that has been practiced all throughout human history up until the Cold War? With few exceptions, conquered societies tended to do better under their new masters than they did before. The Muslims built libraries, schools, and comprehensive social welfare in the medieval nations they conquered. The Romans built their acqueducts, schools, theatres, etc. I'd argue that most of what we in first world nations enjoy today is largely because of the influence of the empires of our past.

[Peter1469]

What is so bad about the sort of imperialism that has been practiced all throughout human history up until the Cold War? With few exceptions, conquered societies tended to do better under their new masters than they did before. The Muslims built libraries, schools, and comprehensive social welfare in the medieval nations they conquered. The Romans built their acqueducts, schools, theatres, etc. I'd argue that most of what we in first world nations enjoy today is largely because of the influence of the empires of our past.


Muslims not so much built anything as Arabs did. After a couple of centuries of Islam, even the Arabs devolved into barbarity and anti-science. The people who gave us algebra refuse to educate their girls these days.

[Green Arrow]

Muslims not so much built anything as Arabs did. After a couple of centuries of Islam, even the Arabs devolved into barbarity and anti-science. The people who gave us algebra refuse to educate their girls these days.

Well, yes, technically Arabs, but a lot of the Arabs where I'm talking about were Muslims, before their culture totally devolved into the barbarity of Islam.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

What is so bad about the sort of imperialism that has been practiced all throughout human history up until the Cold War? With few exceptions, conquered societies tended to do better under their new masters than they did before. The Muslims built libraries, schools, and comprehensive social welfare in the medieval nations they conquered. The Romans built their acqueducts, schools, theatres, etc. I'd argue that most of what we in first world nations enjoy today is largely because of the influence of the empires of our past.
Imperialism is exploitationary by its very nature. I can't believe you're apologising for it.

[Gerrard Winstanley]

Muslims not so much built anything as Arabs did. After a couple of centuries of Islam, even the Arabs devolved into barbarity and anti-science. The people who gave us algebra refuse to educate their girls these days.
Islam isn't some homogenous, monolithic force. The Islam espoused by the Ottoman court as little as a century ago was shockingly progressive in relation to the belief system prevalent in the Arab world today.

[Peter1469]

Islam isn't some homogenous, monolithic force. The Islam espoused by the Ottoman court as little as a century ago was shockingly progressive in relation to the belief system prevalent in the Arab world today.true

[donttread]

The Cold war was a hoax?

Yup. Nobody with nukes has ever been substantially attacked, ever. It wasn't going to happen then and it ain't gonna happen now.
But you can instill one hell of a lot of automatic obiedence in children with "bomb raid drills" and bomb shelter signs. As if diving under your wooden desk was going to save you from the nuclear blast that was never coming

[donttread]

American imperialism is soft imperialism. It's like doing something halfway. I detest it.

I won't condemn the Romans, however, and instead admire them.

What other murderous enslavers are on your admiration list? Plantation overseeers perhaps? American imperialism in the ME recently?

[Green Arrow]

Imperialism is exploitationary by its very nature. I can't believe you're apologising for it.

I'm not apologizing for it. The world was shaped by the great empires of our past. Our cultures were shaped by those empires. Those empires gave us civilization. Why can't we acknowledge their pros? Must we always condemn everything with even the slightest hint of evil?

[Codename Section]

Islam isn't some homogenous, monolithic force. The Islam espoused by the Ottoman court as little as a century ago was shockingly progressive in relation to the belief system prevalent in the Arab world today.

It wasn't shockingly progressive. That's a bit out there. It wasn't loud, but the laws were the same. What you could refer to is Islam in the 70's and 80's compared to today, but even then in KSA and ME nations it was pretty fucked up.

As for it not being a monolithic force, it is as close as you're going to get from a major world religion. Go to any nation on the planet even western ones and put up in public a cartoon making fun of Muhammad in an area with muslims walking around.

I dare you.

[Codename Section]

The Russian military presence in Donbass is well-documented. You'll find plenty of combat footage on YT.

I would have to explain how I know this is crap before I say this is crap, so I'll just imply that I know this is crap from my line of work and then let you go about your way.

((eats some more chips))