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View Full Version : Number of shots fired in police shootings vs. citizen self defense shootings



donttread
12-24-2014, 05:41 PM
I'm having some trouble coming up with information but I strongly suspect that the average citizen's gun self defense only involves a couple of shots.
Peter and other legal experts I also have a question for you. If I felt threatened by a guy 20 feet away with a knife and shot him 9 times , like the two cops in East St. Louis did. Or if I fired 14 times at a guy beating me with a stick, my own stick at that:
Would any plea of self defense be attacked by the DA based upon the number of rounds I fired? I chose these two instances because the assailant did not have a firearm but rather a weapon with far less range.
My guess is prosecution would point out the high number of shots fired. Perhaps I'm wrong. However, if I'm right we are holding trained police officers to a LOWER STANDARD of firearm responsibility than an ordinary citizen, which seems ludicrous.

Cigar
12-24-2014, 05:54 PM
A 12 Gauge with an open choke is the only shot you need ... trouble to the north, shoot north. :grin: ect ...

Bo-4
12-24-2014, 06:03 PM
I'm having some trouble coming up with information but I strongly suspect that the average citizen's gun self defense only involves a couple of shots.
Peter and other legal experts I also have a question for you. If I felt threatened by a guy 20 feet away with a knife and shot him 9 times , like the two cops in East St. Louis did. Or if I fired 14 times at a guy beating me with a stick, my own stick at that:
Would any plea of self defense be attacked by the DA based upon the number of rounds I fired? I chose these two instances because the assailant did not have a firearm but rather a weapon with far less range.
My guess is prosecution would point out the high number of shots fired. Perhaps I'm wrong. However, if I'm right we are holding trained police officers to a LOWER STANDARD of firearm responsibility than an ordinary citizen, which seems ludicrous.

DT, i remain completely perplexed by the responses we get when we question 14 shots, or 12 or 10 or pretty much any other number my friend.

It would appear to me that they enjoy hearing about young black men dying.. but that might be a perception thing -- who knows?

Peter1469
12-24-2014, 06:20 PM
I'm having some trouble coming up with information but I strongly suspect that the average citizen's gun self defense only involves a couple of shots.
Peter and other legal experts I also have a question for you. If I felt threatened by a guy 20 feet away with a knife and shot him 9 times , like the two cops in East St. Louis did. Or if I fired 14 times at a guy beating me with a stick, my own stick at that:
Would any plea of self defense be attacked by the DA based upon the number of rounds I fired? I chose these two instances because the assailant did not have a firearm but rather a weapon with far less range.
My guess is prosecution would point out the high number of shots fired. Perhaps I'm wrong. However, if I'm right we are holding trained police officers to a LOWER STANDARD of firearm responsibility than an ordinary citizen, which seems ludicrous.

It all depends on where the case is being tried. But if you expend a lot of ammo, it is much more likely you are going to be convicted of something.

Bo-4
12-24-2014, 06:23 PM
It all depends on where the case is being tried. But if you expend a lot of ammo, it is much more likely you are going to be convicted of something.

Peter, still waiting for the last case of police shooting of young black man which has been prosecuted in US.

I remain hopeful :rolleyes: Ehh, NOT.

PolWatch
12-24-2014, 06:28 PM
Any abused woman who shot 15 times would be charged with murder. Fear as a defense doesn't seem to be acceptable for everyone.

'CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Teisha Frederick suffered at the hands of Deshawn Creer (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/10/medical_examiner_ids_cleveland_10.html) for years, and now she's charged in his killing.'
'The fight turned physical, and Creer began to rip out Frederick's hair. Frederick picked up a knife and stabbed Creer in the chest, police said.'
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/10/cleveland_woman_charged_with_m_1.html

'Malcome, 32, was on probation for threatening Williams by putting a gun to her head in 2008 when he returned home at 3 a.m. on May, 22, 2011 with a friend. There he was met by Williams, whose journal entry penned an hour before his arrival at the apartment depicted her fury.
She stabbed his arm during the ensuing fight — she threw a can of spray paint at him, he hit her — and he left for a friend’s house bleeding, unaware a major artery had been cut, lawyers said. There an ambulance was called, and he was pronounced dead an hour later at Atlanta Medical Center.
A Gwinnett County jury convicted a battered woman of murder for killing her abusive longtime partner who had once put a gun to her head'
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/battered-woman-defense-fails-gwinnett-woman-convic/njTN5/

'Danielle Wray, 38, of Rochester was charged with second-degree murder in connection with the death of Anthony Blue (http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2014/11/29/stabbing-homicide-st-paul-street/19688061/), 40, at Andrews Terrace Apartments on St. Paul Street, said Rochester police Investigator Jacqueline Shuman.
With a faded bruise covering the left side of her face, Wray pleaded not guilty Monday morning in City Court and was remanded to Monroe County Jail without bail.'
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2014/12/01/woman-charged-murder-fatal-stabbing/19729573/

Peter1469
12-24-2014, 06:29 PM
Peter, still waiting for the last case of police shooting of young black man which has been prosecuted in US.

I remain hopeful :rolleyes: Ehh, NOT.

Sorry. You don't have enough rank to give me orders. When you make COL I will snap to and get you anything you need.

Matty
12-24-2014, 06:40 PM
How many shots would you big brave talkers allow a policemen? If fourteen is too many then how many would you allow him?

Matty
12-24-2014, 06:43 PM
Any abused woman who shot 15 times would be charged with murder. Fear as a defense doesn't seem to be acceptable for everyone.

'CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Teisha Frederick suffered at the hands of Deshawn Creer (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/10/medical_examiner_ids_cleveland_10.html) for years, and now she's charged in his killing.'
'The fight turned physical, and Creer began to rip out Frederick's hair. Frederick picked up a knife and stabbed Creer in the chest, police said.'
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/10/cleveland_woman_charged_with_m_1.html

'Malcome, 32, was on probation for threatening Williams by putting a gun to her head in 2008 when he returned home at 3 a.m. on May, 22, 2011 with a friend. There he was met by Williams, whose journal entry penned an hour before his arrival at the apartment depicted her fury.
She stabbed his arm during the ensuing fight — she threw a can of spray paint at him, he hit her — and he left for a friend’s house bleeding, unaware a major artery had been cut, lawyers said. There an ambulance was called, and he was pronounced dead an hour later at Atlanta Medical Center.
A Gwinnett County jury convicted a battered woman of murder for killing her abusive longtime partner who had once put a gun to her head'
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/battered-woman-defense-fails-gwinnett-woman-convic/njTN5/

'Danielle Wray, 38, of Rochester was charged with second-degree murder in connection with the death of Anthony Blue (http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2014/11/29/stabbing-homicide-st-paul-street/19688061/), 40, at Andrews Terrace Apartments on St. Paul Street, said Rochester police Investigator Jacqueline Shuman.
With a faded bruise covering the left side of her face, Wray pleaded not guilty Monday morning in City Court and was remanded to Monroe County Jail without bail.'
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2014/12/01/woman-charged-murder-fatal-stabbing/19729573/



Three casess of injustice in the courts and you want to subject policemen to that?

Matty
12-24-2014, 06:44 PM
It never ceases to Amaze me how the left always glorifies the thugs and demonize the cops!

Cigar
12-24-2014, 06:45 PM
It never ceases to Amaze me how the left always glorifies the thugs and demonize the cops!

Because we all know No Cop was Ever a Thug ... Right? :laugh:

Cigar
12-24-2014, 06:46 PM
Any abused woman who shot 15 times would be charged with murder. Fear as a defense doesn't seem to be acceptable for everyone.

'CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Teisha Frederick suffered at the hands of Deshawn Creer (http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/10/medical_examiner_ids_cleveland_10.html) for years, and now she's charged in his killing.'
'The fight turned physical, and Creer began to rip out Frederick's hair. Frederick picked up a knife and stabbed Creer in the chest, police said.'
http://www.cleveland.com/metro/index.ssf/2014/10/cleveland_woman_charged_with_m_1.html

'Malcome, 32, was on probation for threatening Williams by putting a gun to her head in 2008 when he returned home at 3 a.m. on May, 22, 2011 with a friend. There he was met by Williams, whose journal entry penned an hour before his arrival at the apartment depicted her fury.
She stabbed his arm during the ensuing fight — she threw a can of spray paint at him, he hit her — and he left for a friend’s house bleeding, unaware a major artery had been cut, lawyers said. There an ambulance was called, and he was pronounced dead an hour later at Atlanta Medical Center.
A Gwinnett County jury convicted a battered woman of murder for killing her abusive longtime partner who had once put a gun to her head'
http://www.ajc.com/news/news/battered-woman-defense-fails-gwinnett-woman-convic/njTN5/

'Danielle Wray, 38, of Rochester was charged with second-degree murder in connection with the death of Anthony Blue (http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2014/11/29/stabbing-homicide-st-paul-street/19688061/), 40, at Andrews Terrace Apartments on St. Paul Street, said Rochester police Investigator Jacqueline Shuman.
With a faded bruise covering the left side of her face, Wray pleaded not guilty Monday morning in City Court and was remanded to Monroe County Jail without bail.'
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2014/12/01/woman-charged-murder-fatal-stabbing/19729573/

Are you kidding ... if she's Black and Shoots her Sealing ... she goes to Jail :laugh:

Peter1469
12-24-2014, 06:52 PM
How many shots would you big brave talkers allow a policemen? If fourteen is too many then how many would you allow him?
14 is likely his magazine with a 9mm. It seems as if he pulled the trigger over and over. Probably keep pulling after the magazine was empty. He broke.

Safety
12-24-2014, 07:05 PM
Are you kidding ... if she's Black and Shoots her Sealing ... she goes to Jail :laugh:

Ceiling.

Crepitus
12-24-2014, 07:29 PM
A 12 Gauge with an open choke is the only shot you need ... trouble to the north, shoot north. :grin: ect ...
True dat

http://gearsofguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Shotgun-4.jpg

donttread
12-24-2014, 09:18 PM
It all depends on where the case is being tried. But if you expend a lot of ammo, it is much more likely you are going to be convicted of something.

Unless you're a cop apparently which confirms my suspicion.

zelmo1234
12-24-2014, 10:52 PM
I can't speak for other states but in MI there their needs to be a threat triangle

#1 The person has to have the ability to do you great bodily harm or sexual assault!

So a person waving a knife and telling people to stay back at 20 feet, could give them the ability

#2 they must have the intention to do great bodily harm or sexual assault.

So the person waving a knife and telling people to stay back at 20 feet Does not have the intention.

but if that same person was to hold the knife in the air start moving toward you and screaming I am going to kill you. that move it back into a yes.

#3 they must have the opportunity? So if the person is standing on the other side of a wall and locked gate and holding a knife telling someone that they are going to kill them? does not have the opportunity.

If those three conditions are met, I have never been involved with a case where the number of shot came into play!

And as a trainer I tell people that the number of shots needed is the number you fire to neutralize the threat!

That could be one and it could be 20. Now we hold the police to a higher standard. so they must prove a threat to the community, and sexual assault does not come into play. they must also show that there are no other reasonable options available.

So to go back to the question of a knife and 20 feet.

20 feet seems like a long way but we are talking about a distance that can be covered by the average person in 3 seconds or less.

So lets put this into 2 hypothetical situations

#1 person with the knife is holding a small pocket knife the person is 105 lbs and is scared.

He is at 20 feet and closing. telling the proposed victim that they are going to cut them.

The proposed victim is a martial arts teacher he is 6"3" 225 lbs

He pulls his gun and shoots 1 time killing the person

Manslaughter at the very best and more than likely murder 2

#2 young woman is walking to her car in the evening. She is approached by a 225 lb person with a knife telling her he is going to get her.

He is at 20 feet and closing with the knife down at his side!

she pull a 9mm and shoot the attacker 15 times

Justifiable homicide

I know that they are kind of corny but the number of shots never justifies or condemns the shoot

PolWatch
12-24-2014, 11:55 PM
That's a great list Zel but there is a problem with it. Those rules apply to civilians. Cops only need say they were afraid...it doesn't have to be reasonable fear...just fear. An armed cop is afraid of a toy gun held by 12 year old, an armed cop is afraid of a wheelchair bound vet with a plastic fork, an armed cop is afraid of a man buying a toy gun in Wal-Mart. All of the incidents I list would get a civilian shooter charged and convicted of murder.

zelmo1234
12-25-2014, 05:58 AM
That's a great list Zel but there is a problem with it. Those rules apply to civilians. Cops only need say they were afraid...it doesn't have to be reasonable fear...just fear. An armed cop is afraid of a toy gun held by 12 year old, an armed cop is afraid of a wheelchair bound vet with a plastic fork, an armed cop is afraid of a man buying a toy gun in Wal-Mart. All of the incidents I list would get a civilian shooter charged and convicted of murder.

I do not know the laws in your state, but in MI they are held to a higher standard.

Here is something for you to consider. Airsoft guns, like the one that the 12 year old was pulling from his belt are unfortunately made to look exactly like their real counterparts, with one exception!

An orange cap on the end of the barrel, which is often removed by the child

https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=photos+of+airsoft+pistol

And unfortunately in the world created by the wonderful government programs of the inner city ghetto. 12 year old are no longer the innocents that they once were. unfortunately it has become all to common that that kids kill kids.

AND WHILE I AN NOT SAYING THAT THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT SHOULD NOT BE REVISED! but can you honestly tell me that you can tell the difference between the toy airsoft gun and a real gun, in the waist band of a person in the dark?

So if you life in a state where the laws are not more restrictive for the police? I suggest that you start with the law makers and find out why

lynn
12-25-2014, 12:14 PM
Common sense tells me that if an officer feels he must empty his magazine to kill someone effectively, he obviously needs more police training on how to use a gun. Otherwise it appears the officer is reacting out of overreacting to fear or intense anger at the suspect. Which still justifies more training for officers.

donttread
12-25-2014, 03:15 PM
How many shots would you big brave talkers allow a policemen? If fourteen is too many then how many would you allow him?

Three maybe, it depends on the situation. 14 is only going to happen in murder and full on panic

The Xl
12-25-2014, 04:07 PM
It never ceases to Amaze me how the left always glorifies the thugs and demonize the cops!

It never ceases to amaze me how you glorify the small but damaging number of criminal cops who actually are thugs.

Peter1469
12-25-2014, 05:45 PM
It never ceases to amaze me how you glorify the small but damaging number of criminal cops who actually are thugs.

Attention to detail is hard. Broad generalizations is easy.

donttread
12-26-2014, 08:01 AM
It never ceases to Amaze me how the left always glorifies the thugs and demonize the cops!

The very root of the problem is that there no longer appears to be much difference between the two