Russia shuts off gas to Europe

[Peter1469]

Russia shuts off gas to Europe (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-14/russia-cuts-ukraine-gas-supply-6-european-countries)

Russia plays its trump card- natural gas. A cold winter in Europe just got colder.


Vladimir Putin ordered the Russian state energy giant Gazprom to cut supplies to and through Ukraine amid accusations, according to The Daily Mail, (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1106382/Europe-plunged-energy-crisis-Russia-cuts-gas-supply-Ukraine.html) that its neighbor has been siphoning off and stealing Russian gas. Due to these "transit risks for European consumers in the territory of Ukraine," Gazprom cut gas exports to Europe by 60%, plunging the continent into an energy crisis "within hours." Perhaps explaining the explosion higher in NatGas prices (and oil) today, gas companies in Ukraine confirmed that Russia had cut off supply; and six countries reported a complete shut-off of Russian gas. The EU raged that the sudden cut-off to some of its member countries was "completely unacceptable," (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2015-01-14/russia-to-shift-ukraine-gas-transit-to-turkey-as-eu-cries-foul.html)but Gazprom CEO Alexey Miller later added that Russia plans to shift all its natural gas flows crossing Ukraine to a route via Turkey; and Russian Energy Minister Alexander Novak stated unequivocally, "the decision has been made."

[donttread]

Russia shuts of gas to Europe (http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-01-14/russia-cuts-ukraine-gas-supply-6-european-countries)

Russia plays its trump card- natural gas. A cold winter in Europe just got colder.

Maybe Europe shouldn't have backed our "punishment plan" of increasing OPEC production. One day they'll learn

[Matty]

Total sanctions on Russia. Freeze every asset until they learn to play nice.

[Mac-7]

No problem.

Since the Euro's discovered the lost secrets of Atlantis they have windmills and solar electric panels to use.

They don't need no stinkin and pollutin oil from the ruskies.

[donttread]

Total sanctions on Russia. Freeze every asset until they learn to play nice.

Or we could stay out of it for once

[Peter1469]

Total sanctions on Russia. Freeze every asset until they learn to play nice.

That isn't smart. If you corner an animal it will attack out of desperation. And Russia has strategic nuclear weapons.

We should have built liquid national gas terminals in Europe a decade ago so we could replace Russian fuel.

[Peter1469]

Or we could stay out of it for once

That isn't going to happen. Do you have a plan A?

[Mac-7]

That isn't smart. If you corner an animal it will attack out of desperation. And Russia has strategic nuclear weapons.

We should have built liquid national gas terminals in Europe a decade ago so we could replace Russian fuel.

Wouldn't that provoke the Russians?

First you tell us to be passive and not push them into a corner.

And then you say let's cut off their revenue steam and push them into a corner.

[Peter1469]

Competing on the market is one thing. "Total sanctions" are another thing.

Really?


Wouldn't that provoke the Russians?

First you tell us to be passive and not push them into a corner.

And then you say let's cut off their revenue steam and push them into a corner.

[Mac-7]

Competing on the market is one thing. "Total sanctions" are another thing.

Really?

When you have only one source of income and someone is planning to cut that off it amounts to a sanction.

[Matty]

Or we could stay out of it for once
If they have assets here freeze them, since they are all about freezing, freeze them! What are you a doormat?

[Matty]

That isn't smart. If you corner an animal it will attack out of desperation. And Russia has strategic nuclear weapons.

We should have built liquid national gas terminals in Europe a decade ago so we could replace Russian fuel.
Why didn't Europe build them? They build em we can fill them.

[Peter1469]

When you have only one source of income and someone is planning to cut that off it amounts to a sanction.

It is not the same thing. It doesn't give Russia the same range of options.

[Peter1469]

Why didn't Europe build them? They build em we can fill them.

There are a couple of projects that have started. They should have done so sooner.

[donttread]

That isn't going to happen. Do you have a plan A?

war, covert interference, terrorist creation. You know, our usual

[Peter1469]

war, covert interference, terrorist creation. You know, our usual

I doubt there will be any war between the US and Russia.

[Howey]

Total sanctions on Russia. Freeze every asset until they learn to play nice.


Agreed. Make The Pootin weep.

[Polecat]

All the friction is being caused by greedy billionaires trying to increase their stranglehold on the global economy. We have to depend on the Russians for service to and from the ISS so burning that particular bridge is nothing less than insane.

[exotix]

No sweat ... conservatives are here to save the day ...



Natural Gas Exports: Koch Brothers and the Conservative Echo Chamber

http://www.desmogblog.com/natural-gas-exports-washington-s-revolving-door-fuels-climate-threat-koch-brothers-and-conservative-echo-chamber

The “Kochtopus” tentacles reach into the LNG exports debate as well.

“Exporting Natural Gas will bring investments and jobs into our economy,” announced Americans for Prosperity Ohio, one of many Tea Party activist groups rallying for LNGexports.

Right wing think tanks and advocacy groups including The Heritage Foundation (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/07/energy-exports-promote-prosperity-and-bolster-national-security), Competitive Enterprise Institute (https://cei.org/blog/aea’s-unprincipled-stand), and others have made similar calls for expedited LNG export permits.


Counter Putin with Natural-Gas Exports (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/372982/counter-putin-natural-gas-exports-john-fund) ~ Obama should ignore the green lobby and expedite exports to Europe


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/372982/counter-putin-natural-gas-exports-john-fund





http://www.desmogblog.com/sites/beta.desmogblog.com/files/Kochtopus dirty money.png

[Alyosha]

Total sanctions on Russia. Freeze every asset until they learn to play nice.

And have my uncle not have his diabetes medicine although he has not voted for Putin, or to see my grandmother's best friend eating nothing but oats in spite of her diabetes even though she has never voted for Putin, or to know that children in Siberia will be cut off from nutritional supplements or fresh foods because adults make decisions that are not theirs?

For why again? A country very few people think about each day, over a piece of land which is Russian speaking...? What is the US strategic interest that we should cause such suffering to Russian while allowing cruel apathy and human rights abuses in other parts of the world to go unnoticed?

[Adelaide]

And have my uncle not have his diabetes medicine although he has not voted for Putin, or to see my grandmother's best friend eating nothing but oats in spite of her diabetes even though she has never voted for Putin, or to know that children in Siberia will be cut off from nutritional supplements or fresh foods because adults make decisions that are not theirs?

For why again? A country very few people think about each day, over a piece of land which is Russian speaking...? What is the US strategic interest that we should cause such suffering to Russian while allowing cruel apathy and human rights abuses in other parts of the world to go unnoticed?

That is something that has always gotten me about sanctions. Use Iran as an example - there are a lot of people, especially young people growing up there, who don't agree with their regime. Sanctions ultimately can hurt them more than any others. It's the people who truly suffer the consequences of sanctions. It's also poor diplomacy, because those people who may want western-style reforms in their countries see an aggressive US hurt them personally in a quest to harm a government they don't even support.

[Matty]

And have my uncle not have his diabetes medicine although he has not voted for Putin, or to see my grandmother's best friend eating nothing but oats in spite of her diabetes even though she has never voted for Putin, or to know that children in Siberia will be cut off from nutritional supplements or fresh foods because adults make decisions that are not theirs?

For why again? A country very few people think about each day, over a piece of land which is Russian speaking...? What is the US strategic interest that we should cause such suffering to Russian while allowing cruel apathy and human rights abuses in other parts of the world to go unnoticed?


Please don't make this personal Aly. What about the Europeans who will freeze to death because he is turning off their gas? The U.S. and her citizens are castigated every day for decisions our leaders make! Why not Russia?

[Matty]

Sanctions are better than war IMHO!

[Alyosha]

Please don't make this personal Aly. What about the Europeans who will freeze to death because he is turning off their gas? The U.S. and her citizens are castigated every day for decisions our leaders make! Why not Russia?

The Europeans with the gas shut off are the people who requested the sanctions. I am making personal examples because it is necessary. We hurt people, real people, not numbers when we do these things.

Had I not made it to the US I would be one of those people hurt right now.

I find it all very sad.

[Matty]

The Europeans with the gas shut off are the people who requested the sanctions. I am making personal examples because it is necessary. We hurt people, real people, not numbers when we do these things.

Had I not made it to the US I would be one of those people hurt right now.

I find it all very sad.


It is sad. So are freezing people!

[exotix]

Sanctions are better than war IMHO!
Well except for Bush and the neocons who as *great deciders* decided Iraq Sanctions didn't work anymore due to Saddam attacking us on 9/11 and reconstituting Nuclear Weapons (WMD's)

[Mini Me]

And have my uncle not have his diabetes medicine although he has not voted for Putin, or to see my grandmother's best friend eating nothing but oats in spite of her diabetes even though she has never voted for Putin, or to know that children in Siberia will be cut off from nutritional supplements or fresh foods because adults make decisions that are not theirs?

For why again? A country very few people think about each day, over a piece of land which is Russian speaking...? What is the US strategic interest that we should cause such suffering to Russian while allowing cruel apathy and human rights abuses in other parts of the world to go unnoticed?

Its a cruel irony that is hard to fathom.
Sanctions do not hurt the rulers in power, they only hurt innocent civilians just trying to live.

A wounded Russian Bear run by bad Vlad is a a horrid sight to see.

And freezing people out is an act of genocide.

[Mini Me]

Sanctions are better than war IMHO!

All this flys in the face of "free trade" and the supposed benefits thereof.

Why aren't the free traders rallying for support of keeping the gas flowing?

Could it be because they don't really believe their own bullshit?

[iustitia]

Sanctions are better than war IMHO!

So is minding your own fucking business IMHO!

[Don]

The way we have used sanctions hasn't had the intended effects we wanted. Its usually only the people of the country being sanctioned that suffer, not their government. Years of sanctions against Iraq only starved the the people and turned them against us when we went in to take out Saddam. The government wasn't weakened at all and all kinds of outsiders like the French and Germans and even the Secretary General of the U.N. got rich on the blood money of the illegal oil sales.

[Mini Me]

Sanctions are better than war IMHO!

But sanctions often lead to war, and can be an act of war.

Eg; US cutting off Japan from oil and iron and Pearl Harbor attack.

[iustitia]

Topics like this only serve to remind me of how far-removed my definition of 'conservative' is from the pre-packaged "new right."

Russia is a Christian country which as time goes looks more like the country our forefathers created for America than America appears today. Why do so-called conservatives want so desperately to siphon off their prestige and success? Their culture is more Western now than the West is! And we're going to try to break them over decadent, secular, welfare states in Europe? Because Russia is standing up for itself?

America's 'conservatives' will wave their flags, shout "Murica!", rename frenchfries and ban the burning of the American flag. They don't give a fuck about what a flag means to a Russian, though, and will gladly burn their flag because fuck them.

The truth is that, were American conservatives intellectually honest with themselves, they'd see that there's nothing in this country worth waiving a flag over. The same is not true of an imperfect but respectable Russia. Conservatives or neocons are Chicken Littles crying over the falling sky. Little do they realize that the sky fell from America over a century ago and whatever sky may or may not be falling over Russia and Ukraine is thanks to the meddling West.

[Matty]

Ya know when California called for a boycott of Arizona? Remember that? Would Arizona been justified in turning off the water and the power in LA? Think about it!

[iustitia]

I'm going to bypass the Commerce Clause for a sec.

Fuck California.

[CaveDog]

No sweat ... conservatives are here to save the day ...



Natural Gas Exports: Koch Brothers and the Conservative Echo Chamber

http://www.desmogblog.com/natural-gas-exports-washington-s-revolving-door-fuels-climate-threat-koch-brothers-and-conservative-echo-chamber

The “Kochtopus” tentacles reach into the LNG exports debate as well.

“Exporting Natural Gas will bring investments and jobs into our economy,” announced Americans for Prosperity Ohio, one of many Tea Party activist groups rallying for LNGexports.

Right wing think tanks and advocacy groups including The Heritage Foundation (http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2014/07/energy-exports-promote-prosperity-and-bolster-national-security), Competitive Enterprise Institute (https://cei.org/blog/aea’s-unprincipled-stand), and others have made similar calls for expedited LNG export permits.


Counter Putin with Natural-Gas Exports (http://www.nationalreview.com/article/372982/counter-putin-natural-gas-exports-john-fund) ~ Obama should ignore the green lobby and expedite exports to Europe


http://www.nationalreview.com/article/372982/counter-putin-natural-gas-exports-john-fund



Would be ironic in a way if the Koch bros. got richer at Russia's expense considering that their father amassed a big chunk of the family fortune setting up the Russian oil industry.

[donttread]

I doubt there will be any war between the US and Russia.

Just proxy wars and such, like kids playing video games

[Peter1469]

Just proxy wars and such, like kids playing video games

Other than Eastern Ukraine?

[Mac-7]

All the friction is being caused by greedy billionaires trying to increase their stranglehold on the global economy. We have to depend on the Russians for service to and from the ISS so burning that particular bridge is nothing less than insane.

We are falling behind in space thanks to unwashed Obama voters who are sucking up all the federal spending for welfare and leaving nothing for science and engineering.

[PolWatch]

if cuts by the dems were to pay welfare to lazy voters, who were these cuts designed to pay:

WASHINGTON — Spending cuts President Bush proposed for NASA science projects will cause far more harm than the administration has acknowledged, top scientists warned a congressional panel Thursday.

The Bush administration budget request provides $3.1 billion less for science through 2010 than was promised in last year's spending request.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2006-03-02-nasa-budget-harm_x.htm

[Mac-7]

if cuts by the dems were to pay welfare to lazy voters, who were these cuts designed to pay:

WASHINGTON — Spending cuts President Bush proposed for NASA science projects will cause far more harm than the administration has acknowledged, top scientists warned a congressional panel Thursday.

The Bush administration budget request provides $3.1 billion less for science through 2010 than was promised in last year's spending request.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/tech/science/space/2006-03-02-nasa-budget-harm_x.htm

I suppose you are addressing me even though you don't have the courtesy to say so.

Bush poured money into the welfare system also.

He was after all the "compassionate" (read brainless) conservative.

I guess his advisors who were all social moderates told him the natives would riot if he didn't feed them.

[PolWatch]

I suppose you are addressing me even though you don't have the courtesy to say so.

Bush poured money into the welfare system also.

He was after all the "compassionate" (read brainless) conservative.

I guess his advisors who were all social moderates told him the natives would riot if he didn't feed them.

funny, you didn't say that until faced with proof that those 'unwashed' gop 'voters' were also receiving the benefits of government money.

[Mac-7]

funny, you didn't say that until faced with proof that those 'unwashed' gop 'voters' were also receiving the benefits of government money.

Don't you think moderates like bush or Nixon pandered to poor people even though most of the money goes to people who didn't vote for them?

Thats how they hope to silence the lib editorial boards of newspapers and the lib tv networks.

for an alleged independent you sure are protective of one side.

[PolWatch]

If you call trying to present both sides, protective, then I guess it must be so...you are always so even handed in posting information about political pandering.

I'm protective of the idea that both parties play the same games.

[Mac-7]

If you call trying to present both sides, protective, then I guess it must be so...you are always so even handed in posting information about political pandering.

I'm protective of the idea that both parties play the same games.

I'm really not very interested in you because I think you're one of the closet libs who are ashamed to admit it.

There are a lot of them.

but if deflecting attention from the reason we are falling behind in space was your mission you have succeeded.

[PolWatch]

closet lib?
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608007923184961537&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

[Mac-7]

closet lib?
http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608007923184961537&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

Yes, your silly picture notwithstanding.

[PolWatch]

silly statements deserve silly pics....:rollseyes:

[Mac-7]

silly statements deserve silly pics....:rollseyes:

Everything you say is silly but I try to treat it seriously for the sake of civil debate.

What you mean is that crafting words to make your arguments is just too darn difficult.

[PolWatch]

yeap...the crayons keep breaking when I draw on the computer screen. My motto: KISS

[Mac-7]

My motto: KISS



In your case I can understand why.

[texan]

Or we could stay out of it for once


LOL, you stay out of people it haven't figured this out yet? Yes stay out of it cause it will always go away and we don't have enemies that will harm us if we stay out of things.

[texan]

war, covert interference, terrorist creation. You know, our usual


Oh yes you are so smart and witty. Jeez.......Note to people the world has bad guys in it and we are not one of them nor are we perfect. Leave them alone you get Hitler.

[Safety]

I'm really not very interested in you because I think you're one of the closet libs who are ashamed to admit it.

There are a lot of them.

but if deflecting attention from the reason we are falling behind in space was your mission you have succeeded.

Translation: I'm not interested in common sense discussions, I only want to continue to talk about unwashed Obama voters.

[PolWatch]

Translation: I'm not interested in common sense discussions, I only want to continue to talk about unwashed Obama voters.

and it's always the fault of the 'other' guy. hmmm...when did pointing out who cut the budget to NASA count as deflection?

[Howey]

I'm really not very interested in you because I think you're one of the closet libs who are ashamed to admit it.

There are a lot of them.

but if deflecting attention from the reason we are falling behind in space was your mission you have succeeded.CLOSETED LIBS???


My God! How many closets do I have to come out of????

[Matty]

Cutting off gas to Europe and cutting off funds to NASA are two entirely different topics! Where is our warning flag?

[PolWatch]

We are falling behind in space thanks to unwashed Obama voters who are sucking up all the federal spending for welfare and leaving nothing for science and engineering.

maybe the flag should be here?

[Mac-7]

Translation: I'm not interested in common sense discussions, I only want to continue to talk about unwashed Obama voters.

I began a common sense discussion by pointing out that science and space were underfunded because the welfare state is sucking all the money to feed poor people.

But PolWatch preferred to quibble over whether it was repubs or dems who were at fault.

But that's because she a lib who knows in her heart that is the fault of the lazy bums on welfare sucking up all the money.

[Matty]

maybe the flag should be here?


Possibly.

[Mac-7]

Cutting off gas to Europe and cutting off funds to NASA are two entirely different topics! Where is our warning flag?

If so it belongs several pages back when Polecat brought NASA into the discussion.

[Mac-7]

CLOSETED LIBS???


My God! How many closets do I have to come out of????

I would call you openly lib.

But many others here claim to be non partisan when they really aren't.

[Howey]

I began a common sense discussion by pointing out that science and space were underfunded because the welfare state is sucking all the money to feed poor people.

But PolWatch preferred to quibble over whether it was repubs or dems who were at fault.

But that's because she a lib who knows in her heart that is the fault of the lazy bums on welfare sucking up all the money.

No. Science and space were rapid of funding by the republicans in Congress.

[Mac-7]

No. Science and space were rapid of funding by the republicans in Congress.

Yes, to pay for the wipe-every-nose welfare state.

Now that obumer is in charge he's doing the same thing.

[Howey]

Yes, to pay for the wipe-every-nose welfare state.

Now that obumer is in charge he's doing the same thing.

Take your pick. Republicans cut both social services and science. And quit calling the president names. It diminishes the effect of whatever minimal erroneous talking points you spit out.
https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-att-us&source=android-browser&q=Republicanscut+science+funding#q=Republicans+Cut +science+funding&spell=1

[Matty]

Take your pick. Republicans cut both social services and science. And quit calling the president names. It diminishes the effect of whatever minimal erroneous talking points you spit out.
https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-att-us&source=android-browser&q=Republicanscut+science+funding#q=Republicans+Cut +science+funding&spell=1


Too bad liberal as swipes didn't take the high road when they were calling President Bush every name under the sun!

[Howey]

Too bad liberal as swipes didn't take the high road when they were calling President Bush every name under the sun!

Dubya (W) was derogatory?

[Matty]

Dubya (W) was derogatory?


No no more so than obummer! Karma rocks!

[Howey]

Dubya (W) was derogatory?

No. From wiki on presidential nicknames:

Dubya,[112]*based on a*Texas pronunciation*of "W"

[Mac-7]

Take your pick. Republicans cut both social services and science. And quit calling the president names. It diminishes the effect of whatever minimal erroneous talking points you spit out.
https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-att-us&source=android-browser&q=Republicanscut+science+funding#q=Republicans+Cut +science+funding&spell=1

My arguments have no affect on you.

so calling him obumer, or the lazy golfer in chief does not harm.

[Howey]

No no more so than obummer! Karma rocks!

Umm....Dubya was called that long before he ran for the presidency.

[Matty]

No. From wiki on presidential nicknames:

Dubya,[112]*based on a*Texas pronunciation*of "W"


Yes? Explain monkey! War criminal, pig, fascist, liar, stupid, idiot! Go ahead. I think obummer is mild actually. Deal with it.

[Howey]

My arguments have no affect on you.


Well. You finally got one right!

[iustitia]

Oh yes you are so smart and witty. Jeez.......Note to people the world has bad guys in it and we are not one of them nor are we perfect. Leave them alone you get Hitler.

That is so historically retarded it's painful.

[Mac-7]

Well. You finally got one right!

I never expected them to.

I just tell you what I think even knowing that the lying lib news media got to you first.

[Mac-7]

That is so historically retarded it's painful.

Hitler was a lib.

[PolWatch]

Hitler was a lib.

probably a registered dem too....

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608013394972643006&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

[Peter1469]

probably a registered dem too....

http://ts1.mm.bing.net/th?&id=HN.608013394972643006&w=300&h=300&c=0&pid=1.9&rs=0&p=0

Nah, just a support of big government.

[Mac-7]

probably a registered dem too....



No he was a NAZI.

But they are pretty close in some ways.

[Ransom]

Take your pick. Republicans cut both social services and science. And quit calling the president names. It diminishes the effect of whatever minimal erroneous talking points you spit out.
https://www.google.com/search?ie=UTF-8&client=ms-android-att-us&source=android-browser&q=Republicanscut+science+funding#q=Republicans+Cut +science+funding&spell=1

They did nothing of the sort, your disingenuous post here proven wrong by your own link.

They(Republicans) have recently proposed a bill — titled the “Frontiers in Innovation, Research, Science, and Technology (First) Act of 2014” — that would cut foundation spending for research in the social, behavioral, and economic sciences by more than 40 percent. The bill would shift some $160 million that the federal government has allocated for the social sciences and geosciences toward Republican priorities in the physical and biological sciences, as well as engineering.

The 'cuts' are a SHIFT of funds. Means your Harvard University anthropologist would not be using tax dollars to study the impact of China’s one-child policy. Nor would a Gruber-like Massachusetts Institute of Technology political scientist not have the money to research how Medicare changes might shape seniors’ political attitudes. And a Brown University archeologist would not be spending hundreds of thousands of dollars examining textiles from the Viking Age.

Look next time before you leap, why be such an easily led constituent?

[southwest88]

That isn't smart. If you corner an animal it will attack out of desperation. And Russia has strategic nuclear weapons.

We should have built liquid national gas terminals in Europe a decade ago so we could replace Russian fuel.

I think fracking was just really getting going on natgas domestically 10 years ago. There was some discussion & early planning on maybe building LNG shipping facilities in the US, but the price of oil kept plunging, & the CIS signed off on long-term natgas sales to Europe. I think it's foolish of CIS to slam shut the faucet - they're teaching W. Europe not to trust any treaties with CIS, nor any business deals.

& so W. Europe will look for other energy sources - solar in N. Africa (they were doing so anyway), maybe look harder into fracking - right now, we have a glut of equipment, crews, support gear in the US. Our guys would be happy to head over & spearhead fracking efforts - although dead of winter isn't the preferred option.

But if the money's there - & what choice does Europe have? - our guys will mount up & ride over, I'm sure. Fracking on a crash basis would be a v. short-term solution - in the long term, W. Europe needs to diversify their energy sources more. I'm sure they're working on it.

[southwest88]

Why didn't Europe build them? They build em we can fill them.

That's a point. Natgas deliveries by pipeline from CIS are probably cheaper than liquefying & shipping to/from specialized docking & piping/storage tanks, etc. Of course, that calculation left out the reliability of CIS @ the controls of the pipeline. We'll see how many customers CIS gets when they get the Turkey pipeline up & running.

For US domestic natgas sales to W. Europe - there may still be some legislative difficulties with exporting natgas to Europe. That would have to have been tackled @ the same time with long-term LNG sales to Europe, & planning, design, siting, land acquisition, etc. for the LNG plant/loading piers, etc. I don't think any one entity in the early LNG talks had the foresight to see the possible CIS natgas cutoff, nor the potential need for LNG from the US in a hurry.

The infrastructure simply can't be rushed. It would still take the better part of a decade to get all the construction done - & I still don't know that W. Europe would be willing to pay a premium to have reliable LNG coming in from the US. They can probably get ethanol (is it?) from Brazil much faster, in that they can use ordinary oil tankers, clean out the tanks, & load up ethanol. Brazil was/is exporting masses of ethanol, & @ a good price, as I recall.

If that's the case, W. Europe - either individually or as the EU - may v. well substitute Brazilian ethanol in the short term, rather than experiment with fracking. (If it were me, I'd do both - they need more options over there.)

[southwest88]

All the friction is being caused by greedy billionaires trying to increase their stranglehold on the global economy. We have to depend on the Russians for service to and from the ISS so burning that particular bridge is nothing less than insane.

Yah, but if CIS is willing to cut the tap on hard currency that they need, there's nothing to stop them from twitting the US on ISS access (they do get hard currency for that from us, too. But I wouldn't count on good sense from a career KGB lt. colonel.)

Nah, we should ramp up our space shuttle replacement program - our military & science agencies need an independent (of the CIS) satellite delivery boy. We can do it, & we should - the sooner the better.

[southwest88]

Don't you think moderates like bush or Nixon pandered to poor people even though most of the money goes to people who didn't vote for them?

Thats how they hope to silence the lib editorial boards of newspapers and the lib tv networks.

for an alleged independent you sure are protective of one side.

Yah, some of them may claim to be Liberal, although it's more often a charge from the Limbaugh & R. Murdoch's sock puppets. But newspapers & TV are just money printing machines, ATMs that business invests in to get access to eyeballs. & the newspapers - & print media in general - are sinking in the sea of the 'Net. It's just a matter of time.

If you think otherwise about their being profit-driven, just float the idea of free political advertising for all serious candidates before the primaries & general elections. Even though theoretically a good thing for parties, candidates & the improvement of the candidate field - the print & ENG media would simply explode.

After Christmas, I believe most of their revenues derive from the political panis et circenses. You simply can't take that away from them, & public good be damned.

[Peter1469]

Yes, Brazil is ethanol. Sugar cane.
That's a point. Natgas deliveries by pipeline from CIS are probably cheaper than liquefying & shipping to/from specialized docking & piping/storage tanks, etc. Of course, that calculation left out the reliability of CIS @ the controls of the pipeline. We'll see how many customers CIS gets when they get the Turkey pipeline up & running.

For US domestic natgas sales to W. Europe - there may still be some legislative difficulties with exporting natgas to Europe. That would have to have been tackled @ the same time with long-term LNG sales to Europe, & planning, design, siting, land acquisition, etc. for the LNG plant/loading piers, etc. I don't think any one entity in the early LNG talks had the foresight to see the possible CIS natgas cutoff, nor the potential need for LNG from the US in a hurry.

The infrastructure simply can't be rushed. It would still take the better part of a decade to get all the construction done - & I still don't know that W. Europe would be willing to pay a premium to have reliable LNG coming in from the US. They can probably get ethanol (is it?) from Brazil much faster, in that they can use ordinary oil tankers, clean out the tanks, & load up ethanol. Brazil was/is exporting masses of ethanol, & @ a good price, as I recall.

If that's the case, W. Europe - either individually or as the EU - may v. well substitute Brazilian ethanol in the short term, rather than experiment with fracking. (If it were me, I'd do both - they need more options over there.)

[southwest88]

I began a common sense discussion by pointing out that science and space were underfunded because the welfare state is sucking all the money to feed poor people.

But PolWatch preferred to quibble over whether it was repubs or dems who were at fault.

But that's because she a lib who knows in her heart that is the fault of the lazy bums on welfare sucking up all the money.

Absent the Space Race v. the late Soviets, science & space is a hard sell in the US - especially when we had the GWOT to pursue, with lots of shiny ships, tanks, missiles, bombs, airplanes. The military spending - domestic & foreign - during the Hot War phase was/is astronomical, & we will continue to dedicate health care & therapy & artificial limbs & CNS & support services to our mangled military & spooks for a generation. The price tag has been extremely high - in lives, manpower, materiel, money.

The aerospace industry is perfectly happy to build warplanes instead of space exploration vehicles - after all, the contracts are bigger, you get maintenance, refurbishing, improvements, etc. in military contracts - not so much in exploration. But if exploration were the only growing arena, they would do that instead.

It's really a matter of policy. Fortunately for the US, China & the European Community seem to be revving up their space efforts. So if we can keep our attention focused on the long term, we can - & should - whip up public interest in continuing exploration out into space.

We need to concentrate on resources & manufacturing, my opinion. With ultrapure materials & better vacuum, we should be able to manufacture chips, for instance, @ unheard-of levels of purity. & in masse, with unlimited energy to tap out there. Just for starters.

& it's a policy decision - that only the federal government can make. If the Obama Admin has dropped the ball on space & science in general, they should be criticized for that. I think the W Admin went haring off after the White Rabbit & fell into Wonderland, myself. But then, they seemed to want to take the fall - thinking that they had some supply of fairy dust - although of course, they didn't dare call it that ...

[PolWatch]

Shall we look at the instant replay screen on the quibble play? I think you left out some parts of your statement...just an oversight, I'm sure.

'We are falling behind in space thanks to unwashed Obama voters who are sucking up all the federal spending for welfare and leaving nothing for science and engineering. '

[Mac-7]

Umm....Dubya was called that long before he ran for the presidency.

Bush had enemies on the left before he ran for president.

Molly Ivins never did forgive bush for booting the potty mouth motorcycle momma out of the governors mansion.

[Mac-7]

Shall we look at the instant replay screen on the quibble play? I think you left out some parts of your statement...just an oversight, I'm sure.

'We are falling behind in space thanks to unwashed Obama voters who are sucking up all the federal spending for welfare and leaving nothing for science and engineering. '

I wonder who PolWatch his talking to?

Southwest88, me?

An imaginary friend that only she can see?

but in any case she's a good little democrat clone taking issue with any slight to deadbeat Obama voters.

[PolWatch]

we have an expression in the south: the kicked dog always hollers....go figure

[Ethereal]

That isn't going to happen.

Perhaps not, but the question is: Should it happen? and the answer is yes.


Do you have a plan A?

Adhere to the non-interventionist foreign policy of the founding fathers while reducing the size of the federal government.

[Ethereal]

I doubt there will be any war between the US and Russia.

There is already a proxy war being waged against Russia. As we speak, Russian allies in Ukraine and Syria are being attacked by US proxies.

[Ethereal]

Agreed. Make The Pootin weep.

If anything, it will have the opposite effect. Sanctions hurt the Russian people, but they don't blame Putin for the sanctions, they blame the US, just like Cubans did. If you want to help cement Putin's rule, then sanctions are the best way to go.

[Matty]

If anything, it will have the opposite effect. Sanctions hurt the Russian people, but they don't blame Putin for the sanctions, they blame the US, just like Cubans did. If you want to help cement Putin's rule, then sanctions are the best way to go.

Does freezing the Europeans hurt?

[Ethereal]

Please don't make this personal Aly. What about the Europeans who will freeze to death because he is turning off their gas? The U.S. and her citizens are castigated every day for decisions our leaders make! Why not Russia?

It's not "their" gas, it's Russia's gas.

[southwest88]

I wonder who PolWatch his talking to?

Southwest88, me?

An imaginary friend that only she can see?

but in any case she's a good little democrat clone taking issue with any slight to deadbeat Obama voters.

Probably you.

As I noted, US primacy in space - military especially - is a national issue. Whether the Obama Admin caters to the mass of voters is besides the point - the responsibility to defend the US in space - or wherever necessary - adheres to the Executive Branch.

If you want to say that Democrats are all for military/spook intervention in the World, I don't think you have a good case. In Iran post-WWII, UK wanted to renege on its deal with Iran on training Iranians in the oil industry, & sharing the profits from oil exploitation. They approached President Truman, who declined. They approached Eisenhower (before he was sworn in, I believe), sold the project as anti-Communism, & President Eisenhower was all for it.

President Eisenhower also got us into Vietnam - although President Truman had abandoned equipment there to the French forces, & also transported French forces into the theatre. The Dulles brothers (under Eisenhower) @ Dept. State & CIA were eager, & we similarly (to deposing PM Mossadegh in Iran) were in Central America, the Caribbean, anywhere we could project force without an actual military confrontation.

& President Reagan lost a lot of Marines in Lebanon. & the GWOT continues on. President FDR did cut a deal with Saudi Arabia, our protection for their oil. But that was relatively benign, compared to our later armed interventions throughout the World, continuing to this day.

[Ethereal]

Sanctions are better than war IMHO!

Sanctions are war. They are war against free-trade and war against the weakest members of society. Not only that, they strengthen the political leadership wherever they are tried, whether it is North Korea, Cuba, Iran, or Russia.

[Ethereal]

It is sad. So are freezing people!

Russia doesn't have to sell its gas to anyone, especially their enemies. If Europeans want Russian gas, then they should tell their politicians to stop waging war on Russia. It's not rocket science.

[Matty]

Russia doesn't have to sell its gas to anyone, especially their enemies. If Europeans want Russian gas, then they should tell their politicians to stop waging war on Russia. It's not rocket science.


Yes, and the U.S. is free to do the same! Oh the humanity. So it's not okay to hurt Russians but it is okay to hurt Europeans. I see the logic in that. Yes I do.

[Ethereal]

Ya know when California called for a boycott of Arizona? Remember that? Would Arizona been justified in turning off the water and the power in LA? Think about it!

Absolutely. It's called state and local sovereignty.

[Ethereal]

Yes, and the U.S. is free to do the same! Oh the humanity. So it's not okay to hurt Russians but it is okay to hurt Europeans. I see the logic in that. Yes I do.

Russia is simply REACTING to US and European aggression. I guess you are against self-defense now?

[Alyosha]

It's not Europe's gas in the same way that your salary is your own or your car is your own. You can choose to sell either or neither. Why would anyone expect that after shoving sanctions at them that cut off food and drugs to their people they should care about the people of those nations that did it?

Pretend the whole world sanctioned us and we had to pay $12 for milk would you want to keep up the open trade with them?

[Ethereal]

LOL, you stay out of people it haven't figured this out yet? Yes stay out of it cause it will always go away and we don't have enemies that will harm us if we stay out of things.

The policies that you endorse create the enemies in the first place.

[Matty]

Russia is simply REACTING to US and European aggression. I guess you are against self-defense now?


Oh no! That's why I believe in sanctions. If Russia wishes to freeze theEuropeans I am all for tough sanctions til they learn to play nice in the sandbox of humanity.

[Ethereal]

Oh yes you are so smart and witty. Jeez.......Note to people the world has bad guys in it and we are not one of them nor are we perfect. Leave them alone you get Hitler.

Then where were the terrorist attacks on America when Washington or Jefferson was President?

[Matty]

It's not Europe's gas in the same way that your salary is your own or your car is your own. You can choose to sell either or neither. Why would anyone expect that after shoving sanctions at them that cut off food and drugs to their people they should care about the people of those nations that did it?

Pretend the whole world sanctioned us and we had to pay $12 for milk would you want to keep up the open trade with them?


Do do you think it would have been right for Arizona to cut off the lights and water to the millions living in LA?

[Alyosha]

Oh no! That's why I believe in sanctions. If Russia wishes to freeze theEuropeans I am all for tough sanctions til they learn to play nice in the sandbox of humanity.

Who says they're not playing nice? What have they done that we have substantive proof on, and likewise what have they done that we have not also done several times in the last 5 years?

We wanted to punish Russia for playing hardball on nukes in Poland and it has escalated to this. Ukraine does not care about the Crimea, they don't like the Crimeans. Most of the "videos" showed zero fighting and for "summer invasion" there was a lot of snow on the ground.

It's abysmal that we continue to fall for globalist persuasion and cease asking rational questions.

[Ethereal]

Oh no! That's why I believe in sanctions. If Russia wishes to freeze theEuropeans I am all for tough sanctions til they learn to play nice in the sandbox of humanity.

Do you not understand the difference between offense and defense?

[Alyosha]

Do do you think it would have been right for Arizona to cut off the lights and water to the millions living in LA?

If the people of Los Angeles were able to raise the price of goods to the point that the people of Arizona were paying $12-15 for milk and saw their medication prices triple, yep. They should cut them off until they stop and allow the prices to come down.

Fair is far. You can't expect to harm people and have them suck it up and take it.

[Matty]

Who says they're not playing nice? What have they done that we have substantive proof on, and likewise what have they done that we have not also done several times in the last 5 years?

We wanted to punish Russia for playing hardball on nukes in Poland and it has escalated to this. Ukraine does not care about the Crimea, they don't like the Crimeans. Most of the "videos" showed zero fighting and for "summer invasion" there was a lot of snow on the ground.

It's abysmal that we continue to fall for globalist persuasion and cease asking rational questions.
I did ask you a question! You will not answer it.

[Ethereal]

Hitler was a lib.

The Republican party started the "progressive" movement. Abraham Lincoln was the original tyrannical progressive ruler, and Teddy Roosevelt was the one who cemented those "progressive" values all throughout America. Hitler had a lot of support among the right-wing fascist sympathizers in the Republican party. Nothing has really changed since then.

[Alyosha]

I did ask you a question! You will not answer it.

I answered it. In the same context, if Arizona cut off LA's water because LA imposed sanctions which drove up the price of their food by 600% and the cost of medicine by 500% then "yes" its absolutely fair. If, however, Arizona did it for no reason whatsoever or just to be dicks then no.

Those sanctions hurt people. My grandmother depended on us sending her money to afford food, electricity, and medicine. Other people around her don't have relatives in the US to help them eat or keep their lights on.

Should you expect them to suck it up and still treat the world the same?

I know you wouldn't if it was done to you.

[Bob]

Maybe Europe shouldn't have backed our "punishment plan" of increasing OPEC production. One day they'll learn

That sounds like propaganda to this reader.

Why? Gazprom says Ukraine paid some debt and they are supplying gas to them.

http://www.gazprom.com/press/news/2015/january/article212264/

This is still January of 2015.

[Peter1469]

There is already a proxy war being waged against Russia. As we speak, Russian allies in Ukraine and Syria are being attacked by US proxies.

And vice versa. Certainly in the Ukraine. I am not so sure about Syria. The rebels are not paying very much attention to the US.

[Ethereal]

If someone punched you in the nose, then you would be entirely justified in punching them back. It's called self-defense. For years now, US and Europe have been attempting to destabilize Russia's political system for no good reason. Whether it is the multiple proxy wars being waged in their back yard (Georgia, Syria, Ukraine) or the ratcheting up of sanctions on their economy, Russia has no choice at this point to RESPOND to this AGGRESSION. Apparently, some people expect them to just meekly submit.

[Ethereal]

And vice versa. Certainly in the Ukraine. I am not so sure about Syria. The rebels are not paying very much attention to the US.

Vice versa?

[Bob]

Gazprom fulfills its obligations to the full and supplies natural gas to Ukraine on a prepayment basis according to daily requests of Naftogaz of Ukraine. At the same time, Naftogaz of Ukraine purchases less gas than provided for by the Brussels Agreements and withdraws it from its underground storages, which leads to a drastic reduction of gas reserves in the UGS (http://www.gazprom.com/about/production/transportation/underground-storage/) facilities, that are insufficient for securely passing the winter period. Bearing in mind that the winter peak periods of gas consumption fall on late January and February, transit risks for European consumers remain in Ukraine.
Alexey Miller stressed that Gazprom had been a reliable supplier of natural gas to European clients for over 40 years. The Company systematically works on diversifying the energy supply routes. Nord Stream (http://www.gazprom.com/about/production/projects/pipelines/nord-stream/) and Yamal – Europe (http://www.gazprom.com/about/production/projects/pipelines/yamal-evropa/) demonstrate high reliability and efficiency of direct Russian natural gas deliveries.

http://www.gazprom.com/press/news/2015/january/article212264/

[Peter1469]

If someone punched you in the nose, then you would be entirely justified in punching them back. It's called self-defense. For years now, US and Europe have been attempting to destabilize Russia's political system for no good reason. Whether it is the multiple proxy wars being waged in their back yard (Georgia, Syria, Ukraine) or the ratcheting up of sanctions on their economy, Russia has no choice at this point to RESPOND to this AGGRESSION. Apparently, some people expect them to just meekly submit.

It isn't one sided. It is the Great Game. Both sides are giving as good as they get.

[Matty]

I answered it. In the same context, if Arizona cut off LA's water because LA imposed sanctions which drove up the price of their food by 600% and the cost of medicine by 500% then "yes" its absolutely fair. If, however, Arizona did it for no reason whatsoever or just to be dicks then no.

Those sanctions hurt people. My grandmother depended on us sending her money to afford food, electricity, and medicine. Other people around her don't have relatives in the US to help them eat or keep their lights on.

Should you expect them to suck it up and still treat the world the same?

I know you wouldn't if it was done to you.


California called for a huge boycott of Arizona tourism and convention business which had a terrible impact on Arizona's economy. I understand your ties to Russia, I have the same sentiments to this country. So I will just sit back and see who prevails. The EU or Russia.

[Howey]

If anything, it will have the opposite effect. Sanctions hurt the Russian people, but they don't blame Putin for the sanctions, they blame the US, just like Cubans did. If you want to help cement Putin's rule, then sanctions are the best way to go.

au contraire, mon comrade:

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2014/12/30/russian-opposition-leader-arrested-as-thousands-protest-near-kremlin

[Bob]

Gazprom warns Europe gas supplies via Ukraine still 'at risk' (http://www.dw.de/gazprom-warns-europe-gas-supplies-via-ukraine-still-at-risk/a-18192188)Deutsche Welle-Jan 15, 2015Share
Russian gas company Gazprom has warned there is a risk that Europe could see "a drop in supplies" piped via Ukraine this winter.

Gazprom to Use Turkish Pipeline Route to EU, to Substitute Europe ... (http://www.globalresearch.ca/gazprom-to-use-turkish-pipeline-route-to-eu-to-substitute-europe-bound-gas-pipeline-through-ukraine/5424859)
Center for Research on Globalization-Jan 15, 2015

Gazprom warns EU to link to Turkey pipeline or lose Russian gas (http://news.yahoo.com/gazprom-warns-eu-turkey-pipeline-lose-russian-gas-212440234.html)
Yahoo News-Jan 14, 2015

Gazprom to use Turkish route to substitute Europe-bound supply of ... (http://itar-tass.com/en/economy/771204)
ITAR-TASS-Jan 14, 2015

Kobolev: Gazprom's statement to terminate gas transit through ... (http://www.nrcu.gov.ua/en/148/587387/)
NRCU - Ukrainian Radio-Jan 16, 2015

Russia 2014 gas export seen lowest in decade as demand falls (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-wp-blm-news-bc-russia-gas13-20150113-story.html)
In-Depth-Chicago Tribune-Jan 13, 2015

[Alyosha]

au contraire, mon comrade:

http://www.nationalpost.com/m/wp/blog.html?b=news.nationalpost.com/2014/12/30/russian-opposition-leader-arrested-as-thousands-protest-near-kremlin


I would make a remark about the CIA but it would fall on deaf ears so I'll just say I'm sure that we had nothing to do with it, nor with Egypt, nor with Libya, nor with Iraq, nor with <insert ME regime change>

[Bob]

California called for a huge boycott of Arizona tourism and convention business which had a terrible impact on Arizona's economy. I understand your ties to Russia, I have the same sentiments to this country. So I will just sit back and see who prevails. The EU or Russia.

California the state did that? I live here and never heard that on our news.

I think this shut off story is a plant. it can't be confirmed.

[Matty]

California the state did that? I live here and never heard that on our news.

I think this shut off story is a plant. it can't be confirmed.


Do they have news blackouts in California?



http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/24/california-lawmakers-push-nation-state-boycott-arizona/

[donttread]

I would make a remark about the CIA but it would fall on deaf ears so I'll just say I'm sure that we had nothing to do with it, nor with Egypt, nor with Libya, nor with Iraq, nor with <insert ME regime change>

Hey, the CIA has the most effective terrorist creation program of all time!

[Bob]

Do they have news blackouts in California?



http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/06/24/california-lawmakers-push-nation-state-boycott-arizona/

I don't recall the Democrats pulling that off.

What did you say CA did again?

Attempt or actually get er dun?

[Matty]

I don't recall the Democrats pulling that off.

What did you say CA did again?

Attempt or actually get er dun?
I believe I said they called for. It's not my fault your stupid state is stupid!