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Ethereal
01-21-2015, 01:41 PM
As a libertarian, I've consistently criticized the US government when it violates the principles of liberty and justice, and because I've been consistent in my criticism, I've been on the receiving end of more than a few insults and accusations from Republicans and Democrats. One of their very favorite accusations/insults is that I hate America. But criticism of the US government is not hatred for America, because the US government is not America and never has been. It is a PART of America, but it is not America itself. How do I know that the US government is not America? Because some of my family was in America before the US government even existed. In other words, there was an "America" before there was a US government, and there will be one long after it is gone, so will these people stop conflating criticism of the US government with hatred for America? Because America is much more than the politicians and bureaucrats in Washington DC.

Ethereal
01-21-2015, 01:51 PM
I was wondering if Matalese and Mac-7 could respond, since they seem to have trouble lately distinguishing between America and the US government.

CaveDog
01-21-2015, 01:58 PM
For what it's worth, there was a United States under the articles of confederation before the current government was even established.

Private Pickle
01-21-2015, 02:01 PM
As a libertarian, I've consistently criticized the US government when it violates the principles of liberty and justice, and because I've been consistent in my criticism, I've been on the receiving end of more than a few insults and accusations from Republicans and Democrats. One of their very favorite accusations/insults is that I hate America. But criticism of the US government is not hatred for America, because the US government is not America and never has been. It is a PART of America, but it is not America itself. How do I know that the US government is not America? Because some of my family was in America before the US government even existed. In other words, there was an "America" before there was a US government, and there will be one long after it is gone, so will these people stop conflating criticism of the US government with hatred for America? Because America is much more than the politicians and bureaucrats in Washington DC.

I suppose America was here prior to your family being here. While I agree that the government has become less and less of what the Fathers had intended I do believe our government has done some great things throughout history to get us to where we are today. Bottom line? I agree that the US Gov =/= America and is one part but it defines us internationally and speaks for the American people whether we want to acknowledge the fact or not...

Matty
01-21-2015, 02:05 PM
I was wondering if Matalese and Mac-7 could respond, since they seem to have trouble lately distinguishing between America and the US government.


Who is Matalese?

Alyosha
01-21-2015, 02:09 PM
I love the idea of America. I love the ideas contained within the Declaration of Independence. I love the American people. They are very kind, caring, and best of all "fun loving". Americans laugh all the time. I love American food. I've been all over the world and there is no better food than that of the American "South". I love it's diverse landscape. I love my town.

I think the government today is on par with pig shit.

nic34
01-21-2015, 02:14 PM
I think the government today is on par with pig $#@!.

Which one?

Alyosha
01-21-2015, 02:16 PM
Which one?

The one that controls the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Intimidation, and the National Surveillance on your neighbors Agency, that one.

midcan5
01-21-2015, 02:18 PM
America is the government, for good bad and in between America is a creation of its government because should you eliminate it there is no America. Should you eliminate government today it is hard to say what is left of the ideals of a democratic republic called America. It is the fantasy of the naive that government is somehow unnecessary or some added extra on our way to eternal nirvana.

"The unity of Government, which constitutes you one people, is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquillity at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee, that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed, to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment, that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national Union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the Palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts." http://www.quotedb.com/speeches/washington-farewell-address


"For decades conservatives have been demonizing government and not enough has been done to defend it. Ever since Ronald Reagan declared in 1981 that "Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem," Republicans have been waging a political war against this institution. They have been joined in this anti-government crusade by libertarian thinkers, Tea Party activists, right-wing media pundits, and wealthy corporate lobbies. This powerful political coalition blithely ignores anything good about government and conducts a relentless smear campaign against this institution. They constantly play upon the fears and insecurities of average Americans and encourage them to blame all their problems on big bad government." http://www.governmentisgood.com/

Ethereal
01-21-2015, 02:18 PM
For what it's worth, there was a United States under the articles of confederation before the current government was even established.

I'm aware, but my family was here before that as well.

nic34
01-21-2015, 02:20 PM
North American continent before conquest:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7p47_tKPzEo/USE9IGNd-vI/AAAAAAAAACg/Oq1Io1Td40g/s1600/6.jpg

Ethereal
01-21-2015, 02:20 PM
I suppose America was here prior to your family being here.

Depends on how you define "America", doesn't it? I am just going with the westernized conception of "America" as being the place that Europeans colonized.


While I agree that the government has become less and less of what the Fathers had intended I do believe our government has done some great things throughout history to get us to where we are today. Bottom line? I agree that the US Gov =/= America and is one part but it defines us internationally and speaks for the American people whether we want to acknowledge the fact or not...

Again, it's only part of America on the international stage. Plenty of Americans engage the international community totally independent of the US government.

Ethereal
01-21-2015, 02:21 PM
Who is Matalese?

That would be you. I forgot you changed your name.

Chris
01-21-2015, 02:21 PM
Correct, America is not the government. See Amendment 1 to be disabused of this.

Nor are the people the government. Another oft-repeat nonsense meme.

Chris
01-21-2015, 02:24 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kqoBZLSm1WA

Matty
01-21-2015, 02:24 PM
Well, let me ask! Which country has the government you most admire? This government is pIG shit. So which country has the better government? You only have one life. You should be happy!

Alyosha
01-21-2015, 02:24 PM
America is the government

If that's true America sucks ass.

Alyosha
01-21-2015, 02:28 PM
Well, let me ask! Which country has the government you most admire? This government is pIG shit. So which country has the better government? You only have one life. You should be happy!

Don't really think about it since I don't pay taxes to any other government. I think about this one that I pay a large percentage of my income into so it can fuck me in the ass. I am of the opinion that when I pay tens of thousands of dollars a year to have my own government spy on my phone calls, my emails, and fund the death of children overseas that I would never pay for in a million years were it my money--I think that income taken forcibly by the government allows me to complain about it.

Now, I would be silent as a lamb about the problems if the government had a lemonade stand that it used to fund these things and I paid zero taxes, but alas that is not the case.

We are not the government. If we were there would be more people in Washington other than 600 for 320 million people. If we were we probably wouldn't have so many useless pork programs. If we were we'd go to war less. If we were we'd have fewer redundant agencies.

Ethereal
01-21-2015, 02:37 PM
America is the government...

Surely you're not referring to the US government when you say that, because a great deal of America exists in spite of the US government's attempts to eradicate it. For example, black markets for drugs are a large part of America, yet the US government spends billions of dollars trying to get rid of it. Clearly, then, America is much more than just the US government.


...for good bad and in between America is a creation of its government because should you eliminate it there is no America.

How can that be possible when America came before the US government?


Should you eliminate government today it is hard to say what is left of the ideals of a democratic republic called America.

Because...?


It is the fantasy of the naive that government is somehow unnecessary or some added extra on our way to eternal nirvana.

Except I wasn't referring to the general "government" but to the US government specifically. There IS a difference, you know.


"The unity of Government, which constitutes you one people, is also now dear to you. It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your real independence, the support of your tranquillity at home, your peace abroad; of your safety; of your prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize. But as it is easy to foresee, that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed, to weaken in your minds the conviction of this truth; as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed, it is of infinite moment, that you should properly estimate the immense value of your national Union to your collective and individual happiness; that you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the Palladium of your political safety and prosperity; watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned; and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to alienate any portion of our country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts." http://www.quotedb.com/speeches/washington-farewell-address


"For decades conservatives have been demonizing government and not enough has been done to defend it. Ever since Ronald Reagan declared in 1981 that "Government is not a solution to our problem, government is the problem," Republicans have been waging a political war against this institution. They have been joined in this anti-government crusade by libertarian thinkers, Tea Party activists, right-wing media pundits, and wealthy corporate lobbies. This powerful political coalition blithely ignores anything good about government and conducts a relentless smear campaign against this institution. They constantly play upon the fears and insecurities of average Americans and encourage them to blame all their problems on big bad government." http://www.governmentisgood.com/

I prefer Thomas Jefferson.

A free people [claim] their rights as derived from the laws of nature, and not as the gift of their chief magistrate.

Alyosha
01-21-2015, 02:38 PM
CIA Admits to Spying on Congress (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/08/07/spying-lying-and-torture-obama-cia-doj-vs-congress/)

NSA Admits to Spying on Americans (http://rt.com/usa/nsa-inglis-three-hops-272/)

DOJ Admits to Spying on Reporters (http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/05/14/ap_reporters_allegedly_spied_on_by_the_justice_dep artment_aren_t_alone.html)

IRS Admits to targeting conservatives in 2012 for tax scrutiny (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/irs-admits-targeting-conservatives-for-tax-scrutiny-in-2012-election/2013/05/10/3b6a0ada-b987-11e2-92f3-f291801936b8_story.html)

DHS Admits to allowing terrorists into US (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/irs-admits-targeting-conservatives-for-tax-scrutiny-in-2012-election/2013/05/10/3b6a0ada-b987-11e2-92f3-f291801936b8_story.html)

DHS Caught Spying on Veterans (http://www.westernjournalism.com/dhs-caught-spying-on-veterans/)

Obama Administration Admits to Secret Kill Lists (http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/5/kill_list_exposed_leaked_obama_memo)



Is this a government which respects its citizens? I could go on...All I did was type in an agency name and "...admits to" after it in Google. It's pathetic that we still support such a criminal enterprise because it's "patriotic" to do so.

All of us are far more American than those pieces of shit in Washington. Our morals are superior. But you guys can keep supporting them.

Lesser of two evils meme, I get it.

Ethereal
01-21-2015, 02:39 PM
Well, let me ask! Which country has the government you most admire? This government is pIG $#@!. So which country has the better government? You only have one life. You should be happy!

Do you admit that there is a difference between criticizing the US government and hating America, yes or no?

Matty
01-21-2015, 02:42 PM
Don't really think about it since I don't pay taxes to any other government. I think about this one that I pay a large percentage of my income into so it can $#@! me in the ass. I am of the opinion that when I pay tens of thousands of dollars a year to have my own government spy on my phone calls, my emails, and fund the death of children overseas that I would never pay for in a million years were it my money--I think that income taken forcibly by the government allows me to complain about it.

Now, I would be silent as a lamb about the problems if the government had a lemonade stand that it used to fund these things and I paid zero taxes, but alas that is not the case.

We are not the government. If we were there would be more people in Washington other than 600 for 320 million people. If we were we probably wouldn't have so many useless pork programs. If we were we'd go to war less. If we were we'd have fewer redundant agencies.


I just feel terrible that you have to go through life feeling fucked in the ass! Gosh, I cannot imagine how boring it must be for the gov. To listen in on my phone call or read my emails.

Matty
01-21-2015, 02:43 PM
I gotta go take a nap and dwell on this!

Matty
01-21-2015, 02:45 PM
Do you admit that there is a difference between criticizing the US government and hating America, yes or no?


Have i i ever accused you of hating America? Show me where!

Alyosha
01-21-2015, 02:45 PM
I just feel terrible that you have to go through life feeling fucked in the ass! Gosh, I cannot imagine how boring it must be for the gov. To listen in on my phone call or read my emails.

No, I feel fucked in the ass by the government because in spite of my capitulation, inspite of its taking close to $80K a year from me in taxes in 2012, it still feels that it has a right to spy on me, invert the constitution, and basically be a menace upon the globe with a giant "Fuck you" to "we the people" with whom it allegedly holds a social contract.

No good government does these things.

CIA Admits to Spying on Congress (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/08/07/spying-lying-and-torture-obama-cia-doj-vs-congress/)

NSA Admits to Spying on Americans (http://rt.com/usa/nsa-inglis-three-hops-272/)

DOJ Admits to Spying on Reporters (http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/05/14/ap_reporters_allegedly_spied_on_by_the_justice_dep artment_aren_t_alone.html)

IRS Admits to targeting conservatives in 2012 for tax scrutiny (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/irs-admits-targeting-conservatives-for-tax-scrutiny-in-2012-election/2013/05/10/3b6a0ada-b987-11e2-92f3-f291801936b8_story.html)

DHS Admits to allowing terrorists into US (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/irs-admits-targeting-conservatives-for-tax-scrutiny-in-2012-election/2013/05/10/3b6a0ada-b987-11e2-92f3-f291801936b8_story.html)

DHS Caught Spying on Veterans (http://www.westernjournalism.com/dhs-caught-spying-on-veterans/)

Obama Administration Admits to Secret Kill Lists (http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/5/kill_list_exposed_leaked_obama_memo)

Ethereal
01-21-2015, 02:45 PM
North American continent before conquest:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7p47_tKPzEo/USE9IGNd-vI/AAAAAAAAACg/Oq1Io1Td40g/s1600/6.jpg

This is exactly my point. The quintessential Americans only exist today in spite of the US government's efforts to eradicate them. Not only are they (American and the US government) not the same, they are often in direct opposition to one another.

Ethereal
01-21-2015, 02:47 PM
Have i i ever accused you of hating America? Show me where!

No, you have not, but you have conflated the US government with America, and I would like to get your view on that.

CaveDog
01-21-2015, 02:47 PM
I'm aware, but my family was here before that as well.

Mine too. My first ancestor here arrived on the Mayflower and was a signer of the compact bearing it's name.

Ethereal
01-21-2015, 02:49 PM
Mine too. My first ancestor here arrived on the Mayflower and was a signer of the compact bearing it's name.

Then you would agree that there was an America before there was a US government?

Matty
01-21-2015, 02:50 PM
No, you have not, but you have conflated the US government with America, and I would like to get your view on that.


I conflate nothing! I just live in the real world and recognize that all countries have government rules under which we have to live. Including this one! The only people allowed to break the rules are the illegals! We get prison, they get amnesty!

Don
01-21-2015, 02:52 PM
I hate that part of the government that has usurped powers not granted to it by We The People in our constitution. When they do that they are the enemy of the country I love.

Ethereal
01-21-2015, 02:52 PM
I conflate nothing!

Then why did you bring up the private charity of Americans when another poster was criticizing the US government?


I just live in the real world...

So do I.

Ethereal
01-21-2015, 02:55 PM
Incidentally, Republicans and Democrats turn into America-haters every time they are out of political power. I don't know which group hated America more, the Democrats under Bush or the Republicans under Obama. If they hate America so much, then why don't they just move to a country with a better government?

Polecat
01-21-2015, 02:59 PM
Obama declared in his litany of lies last night that climate change is our biggest worry at this time. I do not agree even a little bit with that BS. I feel our biggest threat is our own government. Not only dose it pose the greatest danger to us but the rest of the world as well.

CaveDog
01-21-2015, 03:06 PM
Then you would agree that there was an America before there was a US government?

A culture existed here long before the United States was even imagined, even if you don't take native Americans into account. Regardless, patriotism in an American sense not only does not exclude criticism, it sometimes requires it. Many Americans confuse patriotism with nationalism.

Matty
01-21-2015, 03:09 PM
Then why did you bring up the private charity of Americans when another poster was criticizing the US government?



So do I.


It it was to show how generous the US is. We were number one on the list. Add to that our foreign aid and our generosity quadruples! Now! Has any other country ever sent us anything other than a cot after a Hurricaines?

PolWatch
01-21-2015, 03:13 PM
Cuba offered a medical ship with doctors & nurses after Katrina. Their offer was refused.

Matty
01-21-2015, 03:17 PM
They offered to let Russia nuke us too! That offer was also refused!

Matty
01-21-2015, 03:25 PM
No, I feel $#@!ed in the ass by the government because in spite of my capitulation, inspite of its taking close to $80K a year from me in taxes in 2012, it still feels that it has a right to spy on me, invert the constitution, and basically be a menace upon the globe with a giant "$#@! you" to "we the people" with whom it allegedly holds a social contract.

No good government does these things.

CIA Admits to Spying on Congress (http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2014/08/07/spying-lying-and-torture-obama-cia-doj-vs-congress/)

NSA Admits to Spying on Americans (http://rt.com/usa/nsa-inglis-three-hops-272/)

DOJ Admits to Spying on Reporters (http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/05/14/ap_reporters_allegedly_spied_on_by_the_justice_dep artment_aren_t_alone.html)

IRS Admits to targeting conservatives in 2012 for tax scrutiny (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/irs-admits-targeting-conservatives-for-tax-scrutiny-in-2012-election/2013/05/10/3b6a0ada-b987-11e2-92f3-f291801936b8_story.html)

DHS Admits to allowing terrorists into US (http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/irs-admits-targeting-conservatives-for-tax-scrutiny-in-2012-election/2013/05/10/3b6a0ada-b987-11e2-92f3-f291801936b8_story.html)

DHS Caught Spying on Veterans (http://www.westernjournalism.com/dhs-caught-spying-on-veterans/)

Obama Administration Admits to Secret Kill Lists (http://www.democracynow.org/2013/2/5/kill_list_exposed_leaked_obama_memo)





i really hate to mention this but I must. You do know the government is run by and owned by lawyers! Right?

PolWatch
01-21-2015, 03:30 PM
My post was in response to your question: 'Has any other country ever sent us anything other than a cot after a Hurricaines'

Do you think nukes are post-hurricane aid?

Matty
01-21-2015, 03:42 PM
My post was in response to your question: 'Has any other country ever sent us anything other than a cot after a Hurricaines'

Do you think nukes are post-hurricane aid?


Do you also think Guliani should have accepted the Ten million from the muslim post 9-11 who said " You need to think about why these folks attacked you" or something like that! Point being we would rather crawl in the mud of 9-11 than accept shit from those who would destroy us!

Ethereal
01-21-2015, 04:08 PM
It it was to show how generous the US is. We were number one on the list. Add to that our foreign aid and our generosity quadruples! Now! Has any other country ever sent us anything other than a cot after a Hurricaines?

If you wanted to show how generous the US government is, then why did you bring up private charity?

Alyosha
01-21-2015, 04:11 PM
i really hate to mention this but I must. You do know the government is run by and owned by lawyers! Right?

Yes, why do you elect us? I wouldn't.

Alyosha
01-21-2015, 04:12 PM
If you wanted to show how generous the US government is, then why did you bring up private charity?

The American people are very charitable and loving. The American government's charity, unlike that of its people, comes with strings attached.

Ethereal
01-21-2015, 04:15 PM
The American government's charity, unlike that of its people, comes with strings attached.

Aren't conservatives always telling us that it's easy to be charitable with other people's money?

Alyosha
01-21-2015, 04:34 PM
Aren't conservatives always telling us that it's easy to be charitable with other people's money?

Yes, except when someone says "America" in the same sentence then all that shuts down.

Patriotism is a religion for conservatives the way Government is the religion of the modern liberal.

Alyosha
01-21-2015, 04:36 PM
Here this will help when speaking to conservatives on this topic Ethereal:

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-the-most-terrifying-words-in-the-english-language-are-i-m-from-the-government-and-i-m-here-to-help-ronald-reagan-151789.jpg

Alyosha
01-21-2015, 04:37 PM
And for the Democrats:

http://izquotes.com/quotes-pictures/quote-the-very-word-secrecy-is-repugnant-in-a-free-and-open-society-and-we-are-as-a-people-inherently-john-f-kennedy-100752.jpg

nic34
01-21-2015, 04:49 PM
Also Kennedy:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-7aG30qJ20zY/UBui62-QiuI/AAAAAAAAG14/m15H4G1uhko/s1600/john-f-kennedy-jfk-quote-liberal-portrait-political-meme.jpg

Alyosha
01-21-2015, 05:41 PM
John F. Kennedy was a liberal, one of the last of the breed of men who felt we had a right to protection from our government. Not ironically he was assassinated by his VIP, the mafia, and the CIA for believing so.

nic34
01-21-2015, 05:50 PM
John F. Kennedy was a liberal, one of the last of the breed of men who felt we had a right to protection from our government. Not ironically he was assassinated by his VIP, the mafia, and the CIA for believing so.

Do you mean his VP? I don't agree.

The rest is absolutely correct.

Alyosha
01-21-2015, 05:52 PM
Do you mean his VP? I don't agree.

The rest is absolutely correct.

LOL, yes typo. Johnson totally killed him. I didn't use to think so but Ethereal turned me onto this book written by a man in the White House and it's well researched and makes a super compelling case. Oliver Stone who also did shit tons of research says the book is righteous.

It can only be Johnson. The Russian government in the 90s turned over pretty much everything and their conclusion was that it was not anyone affiliated with them.

Mac-7
01-21-2015, 06:05 PM
I was wondering if Matalese and Mac-7 could respond, since they seem to have trouble lately distinguishing between America and the US government.

Sorry, i didn't open this thread until today.

Not many libs around here are speaking to me these days so of course I will answer you.

Like you I love the country, the land, the people, the history, all that makes America what it is.

And I don't think I like the government any more than you do.

Maybe you are pissed because the government has chosen to fight Muslim crazies on their ground instead of ours, for instance.

You and the other libs here don't like that but I think there are reasonable arguments for it that often set your side on fire.

Polecat
01-21-2015, 06:49 PM
Kennedy was not a tool of the banks. It cost him and his brother their lives. Edward was a tool. Can't blame him for wanting to avoid assassination.

Mac-7
01-21-2015, 06:58 PM
Kennedy was not a tool of the banks. It cost him and his brother their lives. Edward was a tool. Can't blame him for wanting to avoid assassination.

Oh my.

Will the crazy conspiracy theory's never stop?

Peter1469
01-21-2015, 07:59 PM
LOL, yes typo. Johnson totally killed him. I didn't use to think so but @Ethereal (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=870) turned me onto this book written by a man in the White House and it's well researched and makes a super compelling case. Oliver Stone who also did shit tons of research says the book is righteous.

It can only be Johnson. The Russian government in the 90s turned over pretty much everything and their conclusion was that it was not anyone affiliated with them.

E. Howard Hunt was a CIA officer who was aware of the assassination plans (there were several) but claimed that he did not participate. He provided a detailed death bed confession and L.BJ. was at the top of the list.

Mac-7
01-21-2015, 09:00 PM
E. Howard Hunt was a CIA officer who was aware of the assassination plans (there were several) but claimed that he did not participate. He provided a detailed death bed confession and L.BJ. was at the top of the list.

The confession as it is presented on Youtube is not very detailed.

It sounds more like the speculation of an old man with no evidence to back it up.

Hunt does not confess to killing Kennedy.

And he does not say who did.

Peter1469
01-21-2015, 09:09 PM
The confession as it is presented on Youtube is not very detailed.

It sounds more like the speculation of an old man with no evidence to back it up.

Hunt does not confess to killing Kennedy. I said that he refused to be part of the plot

And he does not say who did. He said the names of those involved in the plot.

Well, you didn't read my post. I am not referring to youtube.

Mac-7
01-21-2015, 09:13 PM
Well, you didn't read my post. I am not referring to youtube.

Right peter.

Hunt has no real knowledge of what happened.

Does he reveal who was in the plot?

Does he have any real evidence that LBJ killed Kennedy?

No.

Peter1469
01-21-2015, 09:21 PM
Right peter.

Hunt has no real knowledge of what happened.

Does he reveal who was in the plot?

Does he have any real evidence that LBJ killed Kennedy?

No.

He gave a rather detailed death bed confession than is supported by evidence gathered by many researchers into the assassination. Is it absolute proof. Nope.

The bolded. No silly. LBJ didn't kill Kennedy. He was in the same motorcade. He was part of the conspiracy. He is on the record telling various people that the Kennedy's would not make a fool out of him again in the weeks prior to the assassination.

Mac-7
01-21-2015, 09:38 PM
He gave a rather detailed death bed confession than is supported by evidence gathered by many researchers into the assassination. Is it absolute proof. Nope.

The bolded. No silly. LBJ didn't kill Kennedy. He was in the same motorcade. He was part of the conspiracy. He is on the record telling various people that the Kennedy's would not make a fool out of him again in the weeks prior to the assassination.

I know hunt did not accuse LBJ of pulling the trigger.

But the accusation in ConspiracyVille is that he ordered the assassination.

Correct?

domer76
01-21-2015, 10:10 PM
As a libertarian, I've consistently criticized the US government when it violates the principles of liberty and justice, and because I've been consistent in my criticism, I've been on the receiving end of more than a few insults and accusations from Republicans and Democrats. One of their very favorite accusations/insults is that I hate America. But criticism of the US government is not hatred for America, because the US government is not America and never has been. It is a PART of America, but it is not America itself. How do I know that the US government is not America? Because some of my family was in America before the US government even existed. In other words, there was an "America" before there was a US government, and there will be one long after it is gone, so will these people stop conflating criticism of the US government with hatred for America? Because America is much more than the politicians and bureaucrats in Washington DC.

You've posted what America isn't, so what is it?

Peter1469
01-21-2015, 10:32 PM
I know hunt did not accuse LBJ of pulling the trigger.

But the accusation in ConspiracyVille is that he ordered the assassination.

Correct?

No. He knew about the plan and approved of it and helped cover up the aftermath.

Dr. Who
01-22-2015, 12:07 AM
No, you have not, but you have conflated the US government with America, and I would like to get your view on that.
Perhaps the confusion lies in the fact that America (north and south) is/are the name of the continents whereas the United States of America is a constitutional and governmental construct. America would exist absent the US of A. People born on the two continents are by definition "American" be they North American or South American.

Ethereal
01-22-2015, 01:44 AM
You've posted what America isn't, so what is it?

It's supposed to be a country that is based on liberty.

Ethereal
01-22-2015, 01:48 AM
Perhaps the confusion lies in the fact that America (north and south) is/are the name of the continents whereas the United States of America is a constitutional and governmental construct. America would exist absent the US of A. People born on the two continents are by definition "American" be they North American or South American.

I don't think there is any confusion. I think most Republicans and Democrats know and understand the difference because they are the first people to point out the distinction when their political opponents are accusing them of hating America.

Ethereal
01-22-2015, 02:01 AM
Sorry, i didn't open this thread until today.

Not many libs around here are speaking to me these days so of course I will answer you.

Like you I love the country, the land, the people, the history, all that makes America what it is.

And I don't think I like the government any more than you do.

Maybe you are pissed because the government has chosen to fight Muslim crazies on their ground instead of ours, for instance.

You and the other libs here don't like that but I think there are reasonable arguments for it that often set your side on fire.

Well I had to ask because you made a snide remark about Oliver Stone making hate-America-movies, when in reality he was making movies that were critical (many would argue justifiably so) of the US government. Why would you accuse Stone of hating on America when he was only being critical of the US government? And Stone is a decorated combat veteran. I thought you had respect for US military?

Guerilla
01-22-2015, 03:20 AM
It it was to show how generous the US is. We were number one on the list. Add to that our foreign aid and our generosity quadruples! Now! Has any other country ever sent us anything other than a cot after a Hurricaines?

A tribe in Africa donated cows, their sacred symbol of sympathy, to us after 9/11. Compassion and caring for others are natural.

They don't care about money; they are not appeased by these things when we commit crimes that cannot be paid off.


For many of the Masai - who have no running water, electricity or telephones - his recollection to them of the events was the first time they had heard of the attacks in Washington and New York, which killed more than 3,000 people. Mr Naiyomah described the huge fires and the sight of people jumping from tall buildings. Most of his audience did not know what a skyscraper was.

...

"I knew my people, I knew they are merciful - they can be fierce and deadly when provoked - but they are also the type of people who can easily cry for the pain of other people."


About how often do you think Americans cry for the unnecessary death and suffering caused by their government to people in foreign places Matty?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2022942.stm

Mac-7
01-22-2015, 04:27 AM
No. He knew about the plan and approved of it and helped cover up the aftermath.

Anything is possible if you have an active enough imagination.

But why?

Because LBJ wanted to be president?

So it was all his idea and the evil, monstrous, corrupt CIA went along with it because that's just the kind of people they are?

I think this says more about libertarians than it does about the US government.

Mac-7
01-22-2015, 04:37 AM
Well I had to ask because you made a snide remark about Oliver Stone making hate-America-movies, when in reality he was making movies that were critical (many would argue justifiably so) of the US government. Why would you accuse Stone of hating on America when he was only being critical of the US government? And Stone is a decorated combat veteran. I thought you had respect for US military?

Because libs can't seem to tell where the government they hate stops and the America they don't hate begins.

After all they do accuse me of supporting the government they hate.

And most Americans do support the government.

They are the 97% that government needs to carry out its policies.

Many of those policies drive libs nuts.

Particularly waging wars in foreign countries where they "murder" innocent people who never done nothing to no one in the name the American people.

Which makes me and other Americans your enemy as much as the government.

Correct?

Peter1469
01-22-2015, 06:41 AM
Anything is possible if you have an active enough imagination.

But why?

Because LBJ wanted to be president?

So it was all his idea and the evil, monstrous, corrupt CIA went along with it because that's just the kind of people they are?

I think this says more about libertarians than it does about the US government.

Thanks for your opinion.

Matty
01-22-2015, 07:37 AM
A tribe in Africa donated cows, their sacred symbol of sympathy, to us after 9/11. Compassion and caring for others are natural.

They don't care about money; they are not appeased by these things when we commit crimes that cannot be paid off.



About how often do you think Americans cry for the unnecessary death and suffering caused by their government to people in foreign places @Matty (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=796)?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/2022942.stm


I do it all the time but Alyosha thinks I'm strange because I don't know them. I've been crying since they beheaded Daniel Pearl. Do you know who he is? Do you know the Islamic terrorists murdered 13 boys because they were watching a soccer game? That was just a day or two ago. Did you know a nice patriotic marine donated his flag to a school and a day or so later it was found flying half mast and burned? Do you think the 9-11 attacks were caused by our government? Guerilla?

donttread
01-22-2015, 08:49 AM
As a libertarian, I've consistently criticized the US government when it violates the principles of liberty and justice, and because I've been consistent in my criticism, I've been on the receiving end of more than a few insults and accusations from Republicans and Democrats. One of their very favorite accusations/insults is that I hate America. But criticism of the US government is not hatred for America, because the US government is not America and never has been. It is a PART of America, but it is not America itself. How do I know that the US government is not America? Because some of my family was in America before the US government even existed. In other words, there was an "America" before there was a US government, and there will be one long after it is gone, so will these people stop conflating criticism of the US government with hatred for America? Because America is much more than the politicians and bureaucrats in Washington DC.

They say those things and call us those names because they cannot defend themselves in a logical debate because we speak the truth that no one in the Donkephant will.
Secondly, I no longer use the terms "United States" or "Union" because they no longer exist in their intended form. Not even close

PolWatch
01-22-2015, 09:02 AM
I believe a loving parent has to set standards for their child. They set rules and expect those rules to be obeyed. When the child disobeys, the parent's job is to correct the error and set them back on the right road. The parent does this because they love the child and want the child to grow into a responsible adult. Their criticism is not hatred but love. Parents who don't care let the child do anything they want.

I think the government is the child. The parents (citizens) have to require standards of behavior. Some people think the government is the parent.

Alyosha
01-22-2015, 10:53 AM
I do it all the time but @Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863) thinks I'm strange because I don't know them. I've been crying since they beheaded Daniel Pearl. Do you know who he is? Do you know the Islamic terrorists murdered 13 boys because they were watching a soccer game? That was just a day or two ago. Did you know a nice patriotic marine donated his flag to a school and a day or so later it was found flying half mast and burned? Do you think the 9-11 attacks were caused by our government? @Guerilla (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=606)?

I don't think you're strange at all Matty

What I said was that while I may cry at a Humane Society ad or be sad over an image on TV mourning is done by those that know and love them. Had someone seen my husband's name on TV and grieved because a "marine" was lost to battle do you honestly think that you mourned as I did?

No.

If your family member was killed overseas do you think that I could grieve or be sadder than you?

Alyosha
01-22-2015, 10:55 AM
I just noticed something...does Mac-7 not realize that I have him on ignore? I can only see his posts to me if someone quotes him. He should learn to speak to someone else because I'm done with him after the thread where he basically called me a liar about being a military wife.

I will not be addressing him in the future. This is the last time and out of courtesy to him since he seems to think I'll respond or something.

Matty
01-22-2015, 12:20 PM
I don't think you're strange at all @Matty (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=796)

What I said was that while I may cry at a Humane Society ad or be sad over an image on TV mourning is done by those that know and love them. Had someone seen my husband's name on TV and grieved because a "marine" was lost to battle do you honestly think that you mourned as I did?

No.

If your family member was killed overseas do you think that I could grieve or be sadder than you?


Of course not but I am deeply saddened knowing your husband died. Not for him but for you.

Mac-7
01-22-2015, 12:30 PM
I just noticed something...does @Mac-7 (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1014) not realize that I have him on ignore? I can only see his posts to me if someone quotes him. He should learn to speak to someone else because I'm done with him after the thread where he basically called me a liar about being a military wife.

I will not be addressing him in the future. This is the last time and out of courtesy to him since he seems to think I'll respond or something.

You just did address me even though I have not addressed you since the night you stormed off in a huff.

I don't have you on ignore and I can't help it if members of your posse quote me.

domer76
01-22-2015, 02:14 PM
It's supposed to be a country that is based on liberty.

My observations are that we are on a continuous march towards equal protection under the law for everyone. It seems slow sometimes, but we're getting there. We'll see by June if the SCOTUS continues that trend. Being a white male, my liberty has been intact, and in fact favored, my entire life. Born lucky that way. And grateful for it.

Now, I'm seeing greater freedoms for people who are not like me. Starting to the enjoy the same privileges I've had my entire life. For example, I see somewhat of a wake up call for those of us who haven't seen or understood the subtle racism that blacks have been trying to tell us about for decades. I still see some of that racism in the immediate attempts to roll back voting privileges in many places, all conservative driven. But those, in time, will be defeated. Just gotta be patient.

By and large, however, the mantra of your liberties being taken away is pretty much right wing horse pucky. Alarmist, knee jerk stuff. There has always been that fringe and there always will be. It's just more difficult to tune out that strident screech these days.

Peter1469
01-22-2015, 03:35 PM
There is a difference between "episodic" racism and "institutional" racism. Institutional racism is pretty much gone in the US. And no law or court will ever prevent episodic racism.


My observations are that we are on a continuous march towards equal protection under the law for everyone. It seems slow sometimes, but we're getting there. We'll see by June if the SCOTUS continues that trend. Being a white male, my liberty has been intact, and in fact favored, my entire life. Born lucky that way. And grateful for it.

Now, I'm seeing greater freedoms for people who are not like me. Starting to the enjoy the same privileges I've had my entire life. For example, I see somewhat of a wake up call for those of us who haven't seen or understood the subtle racism that blacks have been trying to tell us about for decades. I still see some of that racism in the immediate attempts to roll back voting privileges in many places, all conservative driven. But those, in time, will be defeated. Just gotta be patient.

By and large, however, the mantra of your liberties being taken away is pretty much right wing horse pucky. Alarmist, knee jerk stuff. There has always been that fringe and there always will be. It's just more difficult to tune out that strident screech these days.

Mister D
01-22-2015, 03:38 PM
My observations are that we are on a continuous march towards equal protection under the law for everyone. It seems slow sometimes, but we're getting there. We'll see by June if the SCOTUS continues that trend. Being a white male, my liberty has been intact, and in fact favored, my entire life. Born lucky that way. And grateful for it.

Now, I'm seeing greater freedoms for people who are not like me. Starting to the enjoy the same privileges I've had my entire life. For example, I see somewhat of a wake up call for those of us who haven't seen or understood the subtle racism that blacks have been trying to tell us about for decades. I still see some of that racism in the immediate attempts to roll back voting privileges in many places, all conservative driven. But those, in time, will be defeated. Just gotta be patient.

By and large, however, the mantra of your liberties being taken away is pretty much right wing horse pucky. Alarmist, knee jerk stuff. There has always been that fringe and there always will be. It's just more difficult to tune out that strident screech these days.

Please tell me what privileges you've enjoyed and be specific. Concrete things. Not intangibles.

Matty
01-22-2015, 03:43 PM
Please tell me what privileges you've enjoyed and be specific. Concrete things. Not intangibles.


Want me me to pop some corn?

Mister D
01-22-2015, 03:43 PM
Want me me to pop some corn?

Yes, please. :smiley:

Peter1469
01-22-2015, 04:16 PM
Please tell me what privileges you've enjoyed and be specific. Concrete things. Not intangibles.

We no longer have segregated bathrooms and water fountains... That probably makes him feel less guilty for being white.

Mister D
01-22-2015, 04:21 PM
We no longer have segregated bathrooms and water fountains... That probably makes him feel less guilty for being white.

Honestly, I've given the concept some thought. What privileges have I enjoyed? OK my father stayed with the mother of his children and provided for them. Is that privilege? No, that's just what a man does. DidI get this job because I'm white. Yeah, maybe that had to reach a quota because I'm one of two white guys in my departrment. :laugh:

Common Sense
01-22-2015, 04:32 PM
I think when it comes to the concept of white privilege, it's easy not to see it if you're white.

To me it's things like being able to rent a house or apartment without being discounted because of preconceived notions of race. Beyond anecdotal examples, in seeking a job, you have a better chance if the ones that are hiring are the same race as you. As a white guy you can be masculine without being labeled a "thug" or "angry". You don't get followed around while shopping and you don't get pulled over for driving when in an area you are deemed "out of place" in. The same goes for walking down the street. When you go missing, people actually look for you.

I'm also, as a white person, well represented in govt and the media.

I'm not saying white privilege ensures success...but it doesn't hurt.

Ethereal
01-22-2015, 04:35 PM
Because libs can't seem to tell where the government they hate stops and the America they don't hate begins.

How so? If anything, that seems to be your problem, not Stone's. You're the one who keeps acting like criticizing the US government is the same as hating America.


After all they do accuse me of supporting the government they hate.

Actually, I would accuse you of hating the government just as much as any anarchist. Ever since Obama became President, Republicans like yourself have turned into the biggest America-haters in the world. If you hate America so much, why don't you just move somewhere else with a more conservative government, Saudi Arabia, perhaps?


And most Americans do support the government.

They are the 97% that government needs to carry out its policies.

Many of those policies drive libs nuts.

Particularly waging wars in foreign countries where they "murder" innocent people who never done nothing to no one in the name the American people.

Which makes me and other Americans your enemy as much as the government.

Correct?

Huh?

Mister D
01-22-2015, 04:41 PM
I think when it comes to the concept of white privilege, it's easy not to see it if you're white.

To me it's things like being able to rent a house or apartment without being discounted because of preconceived notions of race. Beyond anecdotal examples, in seeking a job, you have a better chance if the ones that are hiring are the same race as you. As a white guy you can be masculine without being labeled a "thug" or "angry". You don't get followed around while shopping and you don't get pulled over for driving when in an area you are deemed "out of place" in. The same goes for walking down the street. When you go missing, people actually look for you.

I'm also, as a white person, well represented in govt and the media.

I'm not saying white privilege ensures success...but it doesn't hurt.

Uh, Common, a white man will get pulled over in a NY minute driving through a bad neighborhood precisely because he doesn't belong there. Moreover, if you look like a trouble maker you will be labeled as such. That's just a fact of life. Want to dress like a gangsta yo? You'll be treated like one. Now you say "beyond anecdotal examples" but you stop short of actually providing anything beyond pure conjecture and unknowns.

Like I said, white privilege is about as tangible as God. Funny how you believe in one but not the other.

Oh, and Chinamen are well represented in the Chinese media and state. Chinese privilege? lol

Ethereal
01-22-2015, 04:47 PM
My observations are that we are on a continuous march towards equal protection under the law for everyone.

I'm all for equal protection under the law, and equality is a necessary element of liberty, but the pendulum has swung too far in that direction, and instead of equal protection, certain groups are afforded special or protected status, which is the opposite of equality and anathema to liberty.


It seems slow sometimes, but we're getting there. We'll see by June if the SCOTUS continues that trend. Being a white male, my liberty has been intact, and in fact favored, my entire life. Born lucky that way. And grateful for it.

Your liberty is actually severely circumscribed by the federal government. You have much less liberty than a free black man did in the 1850's. The free black man in 1850 could possess a gun, get a prostitute, buy whatever drugs he wanted, move freely across national borders, and paid almost nothing in taxes and inflation to the federal government. He also didn't have to worry about the FBI, CIA, NSA, DEA, ATF, DIA, etc. spying on him, raiding his house, and spending his wages on government salaries and pensions. He was also much more free to settle the land and make a living off of it because there was no BLM to harass him and demand fees and taxes for the privilege of living off of nature's bounty. Of course, life wasn't perfect by any means, and there was much racism, but there was still much more liberty in general.


Now, I'm seeing greater freedoms for people who are not like me. Starting to the enjoy the same privileges I've had my entire life. For example, I see somewhat of a wake up call for those of us who haven't seen or understood the subtle racism that blacks have been trying to tell us about for decades. I still see some of that racism in the immediate attempts to roll back voting privileges in many places, all conservative driven. But those, in time, will be defeated. Just gotta be patient.

By and large, however, the mantra of your liberties being taken away is pretty much right wing horse pucky. Alarmist, knee jerk stuff. There has always been that fringe and there always will be. It's just more difficult to tune out that strident screech these days.

There are millions of black people in prison right now for non-violent drug offenses who might argue otherwise, and millions of Americans who are being spied on by the NSA who might think differently.

The Sage of Main Street
01-22-2015, 04:48 PM
North American continent before conquest:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7p47_tKPzEo/USE9IGNd-vI/AAAAAAAAACg/Oq1Io1Td40g/s1600/6.jpg You forgot the huge piles of scalps.

Mister D
01-22-2015, 04:50 PM
North American continent before conquest:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-7p47_tKPzEo/USE9IGNd-vI/AAAAAAAAACg/Oq1Io1Td40g/s1600/6.jpg

Some white guy probably painted that. lol

Ethereal
01-22-2015, 04:52 PM
Please tell me what privileges you've enjoyed and be specific. Concrete things. Not intangibles.

We can start with the fact that you are much less likely to end up in prison for non-violent drug offenses than a black man is, even though both populations use drugs at roughly the same rate.

Common Sense
01-22-2015, 04:54 PM
Uh, Common, a white man will get pulled over in a NY minute driving through a bad neighborhood precisely because he doesn't belong there. Moreover, if you look like a trouble maker you will be labeled as such. That's just a fact of life. Want to dress like a gangsta yo? You'll be treated like one. Now you say "beyond anecdotal examples" but you stop short of actually providing anything beyond pure conjecture and unknowns.

Like I said, white privilege is about as tangible as God. Funny how you believe in one but not the other.

Oh, and Chinamen are well represented in the Chinese media and state. Chinese privilege? lol

Yes, in a bad neighborhood he will. So that means it's OK if a black guy gets pulled over everywhere else?

Regardless of your opinions, it the privilege exists.

This is an interesting read by a conservative white male.

http://stanfordreview.org/article/white-privilege-made-in-the-usa/


"Chinamen"?

The Sage of Main Street
01-22-2015, 04:54 PM
Kennedy was not a tool of the banks. It cost him and his brother their lives. Edward was a tool. Can't blame him for wanting to avoid assassination. He was a loose cannon who almost started World War III. In order to get the Russians to back down and lose face in Cuba, they demanded the assassination of JFK and his close adviser, Bobby, if he should ever run for President.

Mister D
01-22-2015, 04:55 PM
We can start with the fact that you are much less likely to end up in prison for non-violent drug offenses than a black man is, even though both populations use drugs at roughly the same rate.

And it's not like that has anything to do with the violence the drug trade engenders in black communities. Oh wait...it has everything to do with that. They'd be frisking me and busting down my door if people were getting gunned down in my neighborhood over drug turf and "respect". Start over.

Mister D
01-22-2015, 04:56 PM
Yes, in a bad neighborhood he will. So that means it's OK if a black guy gets pulled over everywhere else?

Regardless of your opinions, it the privilege exists.

This is an interesting read by a conservative white male.

http://stanfordreview.org/article/white-privilege-made-in-the-usa/


"Chinamen"?

Didn't say it was OK. Again, you have ZERO beyond anecdotes and unknowns. You don't believe in God but you believe in white privilege. Yeah, that makes sense.

Ethereal
01-22-2015, 04:57 PM
You forgot the huge piles of scalps.

And when you are talking up the Roman empire, you always forget to include the public rape, murder, and bestiality that characterized Roman "entertainment". But the native Americans are the "savages", right?

Mister D
01-22-2015, 04:57 PM
Yes, in a bad neighborhood he will. So that means it's OK if a black guy gets pulled over everywhere else?

Regardless of your opinions, it the privilege exists.

This is an interesting read by a conservative white male.

http://stanfordreview.org/article/white-privilege-made-in-the-usa/


"Chinamen"?

Sorry, yes, Chinaman. I'll note you didn't respond to the question. :wink:

Common Sense
01-22-2015, 05:05 PM
Didn't say it was OK. Again, you have ZERO beyond anecdotes and unknowns. You don't believe in God but you believe in white privilege. Yeah, that makes sense.

Don't worry D, I'm not exactly shocked that you can't admit it exists.

Ethereal
01-22-2015, 05:09 PM
And it's not like that has anything to do with the violence the drug trade engenders in black communities. Oh wait...it has everything to do with that. They'd be frisking me and busting down my door if people were getting gunned down in my neighborhood over drug turf and "respect". Start over.

Degenerate subcultures like that are mostly a product of their degenerate environment. For example, Chicago's terrible school system was designed by white people, not black people.

Ethereal
01-22-2015, 05:10 PM
Yes, in a bad neighborhood he will. So that means it's OK if a black guy gets pulled over everywhere else?

Regardless of your opinions, it the privilege exists.

This is an interesting read by a conservative white male.

http://stanfordreview.org/article/white-privilege-made-in-the-usa/


"Chinamen"?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OYOzUHnPJvU

Ethereal
01-22-2015, 05:12 PM
Some white guy probably painted that. lol

How much native genes (however we're defining those) does one need to possess before they are no longer considered white?

Mister D
01-22-2015, 05:27 PM
Don't worry D, I'm not exactly shocked that you can't admit it exists.

I'm not worried. Thanks though. I just don't believe i stuff there is no evidence for. :wink:

Mister D
01-22-2015, 05:29 PM
Degenerate subcultures like that are mostly a product of their degenerate environment. For example, Chicago's terrible school system was designed by white people, not black people.

Do you believe such subcultures are even partly responsible for their conditions?

Mister D
01-22-2015, 05:30 PM
How much native genes (however we're defining those) does one need to possess before they are no longer considered white?

Don't know. Who painted it?

Ethereal
01-22-2015, 05:40 PM
Do you believe such subcultures are even partly responsible for their conditions?

I believe each individual is ultimately responsible for the choices they make, but when your choices (educational, for example) are purposely constrained by a political class that is largely white, it's hard to put all the blame on the group of black people.

Ethereal
01-22-2015, 05:40 PM
Don't know. Who painted it?

No idea, just food for thought... :cool2:

Mister D
01-22-2015, 06:21 PM
I believe each individual is ultimately responsible for the choices they make, but when your choices (educational, for example) are purposely constrained by a political class that is largely white, it's hard to put all the blame on the group of black people.

We're all constrained to one extent or another by the circumstances of our birth. That said, I don't fault them entirely either. This society is geared toward individual competition and we value particular abilities over others. blacks, as a group, have come out at the bottom of the rat race precisely because our society is favorable to Europeans and puts blacks at a disadvantage in very real ways. Just not the ways Sense imagined.

PolWatch
01-22-2015, 06:31 PM
We're all constrained to one extent or another by the circumstances of our birth. That said, I don't fault them entirely either. This society is geared toward individual competition and we value particular abilities over others. blacks, as a group, have come out at the bottom of the rat race precisely because our society is favorable to Europeans and puts blacks at a disadvantage in very real ways. Just not the ways Sense imagined.

goodness Mr D! how mellow!

domer76
01-22-2015, 06:48 PM
Please tell me what privileges you've enjoyed and be specific. Concrete things. Not intangibles.

I went through a solid, middle-class public school system. One of the best public high schools in the nation. That was a privilege, in retrospect, that inner city kids never had and still don't. Because of that, I had the tools to enter the university of my choice, which, in turn has opened doors for me in my life.

But, in the context of the post I made, I was able to marry the person of my choice and enjoy all the legal implications that accompanied it. Recognition from the state and recognition by everyone. Without question. Nobody hassled my azz when I wanted a wedding cake made, nor did any church turn me away because of the person I was marrying. Never denied service. Never denied housing. I was never hassled by police because of the color of my skin. Although, I did see my daughter experience that with some of her childhood friends. I also saw, first hand, the attitudes from others when she accompanied her non-white friends.

So, yeah, I had the great and accidental fortune of a particular birth. White, male, into a solid, loving, intact, middle class family and in a solid, safe, middle class city. Solid, middle class schools. Lucky man.

domer76
01-22-2015, 06:51 PM
We no longer have segregated bathrooms and water fountains... That probably makes him feel less guilty for being white.

Peter, please don't insert your absurd personal bullshit interpretations into my posts.

domer76
01-22-2015, 07:02 PM
I'm all for equal protection under the law, and equality is a necessary element of liberty, but the pendulum has swung too far in that direction, and instead of equal protection, certain groups are afforded special or protected status, which is the opposite of equality and anathema to liberty.



Your liberty is actually severely circumscribed by the federal government. You have much less liberty than a free black man did in the 1850's. The free black man in 1850 could possess a gun, get a prostitute, buy whatever drugs he wanted, move freely across national borders, and paid almost nothing in taxes and inflation to the federal government. He also didn't have to worry about the FBI, CIA, NSA, DEA, ATF, DIA, etc. spying on him, raiding his house, and spending his wages on government salaries and pensions. He was also much more free to settle the land and make a living off of it because there was no BLM to harass him and demand fees and taxes for the privilege of living off of nature's bounty. Of course, life wasn't perfect by any means, and there was much racism, but there was still much more liberty in general.



There are millions of black people in prison right now for non-violent drug offenses who might argue otherwise, and millions of Americans who are being spied on by the NSA who might think differently.

There are many protected groups, and at one time or another, we are all or will be included in one or more of those. There's a reason for those protections. I don't need to list the whys because we are all fully aware of them. The special protection claim is more RW garbage. I know of no one who has "special rights".

Your free black man of the 1850s analogy is poor, at best. I won't waste my time there. Perhaps you could fast forward 100 years to 1950 and talk about the privilege of the black man. We all live in the modern world now and your wishful attraction to a simple, and even backward time, has no merit. Those agencies have not trod on my liberties. I would submit they have, by and large, protected them. As far as regulation, I assume you would have no problem with someone setting up a pig farm right next door. In 1850, that would be no problem.

I agree with your example of the millions of blacks in prison. That was the premise of my post of having the lucky privilege of being born white and male. I see public discussion on those very issues and with discussion, progress is possible.

domer76
01-22-2015, 07:03 PM
We can start with the fact that you are much less likely to end up in prison for non-violent drug offenses than a black man is, even though both populations use drugs at roughly the same rate.

My point exactly. Or on death row.

Mister D
01-22-2015, 07:13 PM
I went through a solid, middle-class public school system. One of the best public high schools in the nation. That was a privilege, in retrospect, that inner city kids never had and still don't. Because of that, I had the tools to enter the university of my choice, which, in turn has opened doors for me in my life.

A matter of class. not race.





But, in the context of the post I made, I was able to marry the person of my choice and enjoy all the legal implications that accompanied it. Recognition from the state and recognition by everyone. Without question. Nobody hassled my azz when I wanted a wedding cake made, nor did any church turn me away because of the person I was marrying.

Why are you talking about gays?


Never denied service. Never denied housing. I was never hassled by police because of the color of my skin. Although, I did see my daughter experience that with some of her childhood friends. I also saw, first hand, the attitudes from others when she accompanied her non-white friends.

People of all races get denied service for a variety of reasons. inappropriate dress, intoxication etc. Are you still living in the 1950s? White kids get harassed by the cops as well. Happened to me quite a few times.


So, yeah, I had the great and accidental fortune of a particular birth. White, male, into a solid, loving, intact, middle class family and in a solid, safe, middle class city. Solid, middle class schools. Lucky man.


The key of course is a "solid, loving, intact, middle class family" and thus a solid middle class community and school. You just destroyed your own argument. It's not race. It's class. As far as that goes, get used to it. That's the real world.

Mister D
01-22-2015, 07:15 PM
goodness Mr D! how mellow!

Yes. Yes, it was. :smiley:

Peter1469
01-22-2015, 07:52 PM
Peter, please don't insert your absurd personal bullshit interpretations into my posts.

Not personal for me.

You perhaps? :shocked:

Alyosha
01-22-2015, 08:28 PM
I'm all for equal protection under the law, and equality is a necessary element of liberty, but the pendulum has swung too far in that direction, and instead of equal protection, certain groups are afforded special or protected status, which is the opposite of equality and anathema to liberty.



Your liberty is actually severely circumscribed by the federal government. You have much less liberty than a free black man did in the 1850's. The free black man in 1850 could possess a gun, get a prostitute, buy whatever drugs he wanted, move freely across national borders, and paid almost nothing in taxes and inflation to the federal government. He also didn't have to worry about the FBI, CIA, NSA, DEA, ATF, DIA, etc. spying on him, raiding his house, and spending his wages on government salaries and pensions. He was also much more free to settle the land and make a living off of it because there was no BLM to harass him and demand fees and taxes for the privilege of living off of nature's bounty. Of course, life wasn't perfect by any means, and there was much racism, but there was still much more liberty in general.



There are millions of black people in prison right now for non-violent drug offenses who might argue otherwise, and millions of Americans who are being spied on by the NSA who might think differently.


This and then some.

Alyosha
01-22-2015, 08:33 PM
There are many protected groups, and at one time or another, we are all or will be included in one or more of those. There's a reason for those protections. I don't need to list the whys because we are all fully aware of them. The special protection claim is more RW garbage. I know of no one who has "special rights".

There are people with special privileges by law, certainly. I have sued on their behalf if they can pay hourly and aren't into that contingency bullshit. I cannot believe that you didn't know that.

Have you ever heard of the ADA? I could go on but I think you're playing stupid.




Your free black man of the 1850s analogy is poor, at best. I won't waste my time there.

Because you don't equate freedom with rights. You equate privileges with rights, thus missing his point entirely.




Perhaps you could fast forward 100 years to 1950 and talk about the privilege of the black man. We all live in the modern world now and your wishful attraction to a simple, and even backward time, has no merit. Those agencies have not trod on my liberties. I would submit they have, by and large, protected them. As far as regulation, I assume you would have no problem with someone setting up a pig farm right next door. In 1850, that would be no problem.


They have trod on your liberties you just don't care because you feel like if you have nothing to hide then it will always ever be okay. It's really the apathy of people like yourself that will make the world your grandchildren live in a virtual prison.



I agree with your example of the millions of blacks in prison.

Of course you do, you're a Democrat. If you didn't agree with it you'd lose your Demcard. I'm sure back in 2007 when Obama was saying all the same things as Ethereal about those same agencies you agreed with him. It's when he stopped caring that you did.

Of course I could be cynical about you. You've just shown little else on here besides Democratic kneejerkin'.

domer76
01-22-2015, 09:16 PM
A matter of class. not race.


Why are you talking about gays?


People of all races get denied service for a variety of reasons. inappropriate dress, intoxication etc. Are you still living in the 1950s? White kids get harassed by the cops as well. Happened to me quite a few times.


The key of course is a "solid, loving, intact, middle class family" and thus a solid middle class community and school. You just destroyed your own argument. It's not race. It's class. As far as that goes, get used to it. That's the real world.

It's a matter of both class and race.

Why gays? We ARE talking about personal liberties here, aren't we?

On being harrassed by the police. You wish to deny the truth, that's your choice. Do you think you were being harassed by the police simply because you were white? Dubious.

I'll repeat since the first didn't sink in. It's both class and race. Intertwined.

Guerilla
01-22-2015, 09:18 PM
I do it all the time but @Alyosha (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=863) thinks I'm strange because I don't know them. I've been crying since they beheaded Daniel Pearl. Do you know who he is? Do you know the Islamic terrorists murdered 13 boys because they were watching a soccer game? That was just a day or two ago. Did you know a nice patriotic marine donated his flag to a school and a day or so later it was found flying half mast and burned? Do you think the 9-11 attacks were caused by our government? @Guerilla (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=606)?

No I did not know those things because I do not like to get too far into the semantics of the bad things people do. I know there are people everywhere in the world who do bad things, at least I want to fix them, instead of say "every place is like that, what are you going to do dwell on it?" and make other excuses for atrocious behavior.

About the OP, I'll try to remember to make the distinction clear more often.

domer76
01-22-2015, 09:21 PM
Not personal for me.

You perhaps? :shocked:

About the white guilt? Since I never intimated anything about guilt, yeah, your personal interpretation. As well as bullshit. As well as absurd.

Mister D
01-22-2015, 09:22 PM
I'll repeat since the first didn't sink in. It's both class and race. Intertwined.

no, what you described was almost entirely a matter of class but that didn't really need repeating.

You fucked up the quote box.


We ARE talking about personal liberties here, aren't we?

no, WE are talking about "White privilege".


You wish to deny the truth, that's your choice. Do you think you were being harassed by the police simply because you were white? Dubious.

no, I was harassed because I was a young male. It happens to young males of all races. A lot.

Mister D
01-22-2015, 09:27 PM
About the white guilt? Since I never intimated anything about guilt, yeah, your personal interpretation. As well as bull$#@!. As well as absurd.

If all you were saying is that you are grateful to have had a middle class upbringing you should have just said so. Peter's perception was the same as mine. You feel guilty.

Peter1469
01-22-2015, 09:59 PM
If all you were saying is that you are grateful to have had a middle class upbringing you should have just said so. Peter's perception was the same as mine. You feel guilty.

Methinks he protests too much.

Cthulhu
01-23-2015, 04:01 AM
I love the idea of America. I love the ideas contained within the Declaration of Independence. I love the American people. They are very kind, caring, and best of all "fun loving". Americans laugh all the time. I love American food. I've been all over the world and there is no better food than that of the American "South". I love it's diverse landscape. I love my town.

I think the government today is on par with pig $#@!.
That isn't a fair comparison.

Pig fecies can be put to good use as fertilizer.


Sent from my evil cell phone.

Cthulhu
01-23-2015, 04:10 AM
I think when it comes to the concept of white privilege, it's easy not to see it if you're white.

To me it's things like being able to rent a house or apartment without being discounted because of preconceived notions of race. Beyond anecdotal examples, in seeking a job, you have a better chance if the ones that are hiring are the same race as you. As a white guy you can be masculine without being labeled a "thug" or "angry". You don't get followed around while shopping and you don't get pulled over for driving when in an area you are deemed "out of place" in. The same goes for walking down the street. When you go missing, people actually look for you.

I'm also, as a white person, well represented in govt and the media.

I'm not saying white privilege ensures success...but it doesn't hurt.
Depends utterly on location.

Being white does seem to stop white south Afrikaners from getting raped/butchered/murdered like clock work.


Sent from my evil cell phone.

Cthulhu
01-23-2015, 04:18 AM
As a libertarian, I've consistently criticized the US government when it violates the principles of liberty and justice, and because I've been consistent in my criticism, I've been on the receiving end of more than a few insults and accusations from Republicans and Democrats. One of their very favorite accusations/insults is that I hate America. But criticism of the US government is not hatred for America, because the US government is not America and never has been. It is a PART of America, but it is not America itself. How do I know that the US government is not America? Because some of my family was in America before the US government even existed. In other words, there was an "America" before there was a US government, and there will be one long after it is gone, so will these people stop conflating criticism of the US government with hatred for America? Because America is much more than the politicians and bureaucrats in Washington DC.
If my understanding is correct, the "United States of America" is a corporation that exists in District of Columbia.

It can be hired, and subsequently fired if need be by the sovereign states that created it.


Sent from my evil cell phone.

donttread
01-23-2015, 06:56 AM
I believe a loving parent has to set standards for their child. They set rules and expect those rules to be obeyed. When the child disobeys, the parent's job is to correct the error and set them back on the right road. The parent does this because they love the child and want the child to grow into a responsible adult. Their criticism is not hatred but love. Parents who don't care let the child do anything they want.

I think the government is the child. The parents (citizens) have to require standards of behavior. Some people think the government is the parent.

Post of the day nomination!

Mac-7
01-23-2015, 07:03 AM
Post of the day nomination!

I'd call it one of the dumbest posts of the day.

Yes government is of the people.

But a family with so many parents who all disagree with each other giving the kid contradictory instructions has confused the child.

domer76
01-23-2015, 11:35 AM
There are people with special privileges by law, certainly. I have sued on their behalf if they can pay hourly and aren't into that contingency bullshit. I cannot believe that you didn't know that.

Have you ever heard of the ADA? I could go on but I think you're playing stupid.



Because you don't equate freedom with rights. You equate privileges with rights, thus missing his point entirely.



They have trod on your liberties you just don't care because you feel like if you have nothing to hide then it will always ever be okay. It's really the apathy of people like yourself that will make the world your grandchildren live in a virtual prison.



Of course you do, you're a Democrat. If you didn't agree with it you'd lose your Demcard. I'm sure back in 2007 when Obama was saying all the same things as Ethereal about those same agencies you agreed with him. It's when he stopped caring that you did.

Of course I could be cynical about you. You've just shown little else on here besides Democratic kneejerkin'.

You are entirely off target.

ADA is equal accommodation and equal access, not special privileges. If you believe that in the context of law, perhaps you should rethink your professional choice.

I never equated privileges with rights and if you read that into my posts, you have equally poor reading comprehension as Peter, your "thank you" buddy.

Apathy? What are you doing in your never ending fight against the NSA looking under your skirt? Not a fucking thing, so don't lecture me about apathy. JC Penney or Macy's knows a lot more about you that the NSA ever cared about. The last time anyone did anything about spying on American citizens was Frank Church. There were conservatives that accused him of treason. Admit it, you LIKE the spying, but since it is coming to the forefront under Obama, your diapers are now full of feces. I imagine that shit will disappear as soon as a Republican assumes the office. Probably somewhere around 2024.

Being a lawyer, you should know the truth about incarceration rates in this country. But, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Perhaps you're a tax lawyer and don't know shit about criminal law.

domer76
01-23-2015, 11:39 AM
no, what you described was almost entirely a matter of class but that didn't really need repeating.

You fucked up the quote box.



no, WE are talking about "White privilege".



no, I was harassed because I was a young male. It happens to young males of all races. A lot.

You may be constrained to your little tiny box, but the OP was about liberty and justice. It evolved to white privilege to some degree, and it appears you are unable to deal with more than one aspect of equal liberty and equal treatment under the law. I apologize. I'll try to keep it simpler in the future.

Mister D
01-23-2015, 12:06 PM
You may be constrained to your little tiny box, but the OP was about liberty and justice. It evolved to white privilege to some degree, and it appears you are unable to deal with more than one aspect of equal liberty and equal treatment under the law. I apologize. I'll try to keep it simpler in the future.

I tend to speak to the subject at hand which was the concept of "white privilege". You should apologize for changing the subject. It was rude.

Alyosha
01-23-2015, 03:11 PM
Actually the subject is that the US government is not "America". In order for statists to elevate the Almighty Government to undue proportion they must first create a problem "white privilege" and then react "we need to equalize status" and then solution "special privilege laws" to show that the government is doing something "good".

See the government is keeping white guys down so that others can crawl up. As we all can tell from the heads of corporations and the high percentage of white males in government this plan has worked out brilliantly.

White privilege, however it is defined, has thus been defeated by 40+ years of laws.

PolWatch
01-23-2015, 03:18 PM
Actually the subject is that the US government is not "America". In order for statists to elevate the Almighty Government to undue proportion they must first create a problem "white privilege" and then react "we need to equalize status" and then solution "special privilege laws" to show that the government is doing something "good".

See the government is keeping white guys down so that others can crawl up. As we all can tell from the heads of corporations and the high percentage of white males in government this plan has worked out brilliantly.

White privilege, however it is defined, has thus been defeated by 40+ years of laws.

and what a success it has been!

Alyosha
01-23-2015, 03:21 PM
and what a success it has been!

Yes, top down solutions to combat social issues always work. :rollseyes:

domer76
01-23-2015, 05:03 PM
If all you were saying is that you are grateful to have had a middle class upbringing you should have just said so. Peter's perception was the same as mine. You feel guilty.

Well then, that makes two of you who mistakenly read things that aren't there.

domer76
01-23-2015, 05:05 PM
I tend to speak to the subject at hand which was the concept of "white privilege". You should apologize for changing the subject. It was rude.

OK. I am really fucking sorry.

Mister D
01-23-2015, 09:50 PM
OK. I am really $#@!ing sorry.

You don't have to be sorry for being white, domer. :smiley:

Common
01-23-2015, 09:55 PM
Yes, top down solutions to combat social issues always work. :rollseyes:

I havent seen anything in my lifetime that worked

Ethereal
01-23-2015, 10:16 PM
There are many protected groups, and at one time or another, we are all or will be included in one or more of those. There's a reason for those protections. I don't need to list the whys because we are all fully aware of them. The special protection claim is more RW garbage. I know of no one who has "special rights".

You admit to the existence of "protected groups", yet you know of no one who has "special rights". Seems a bit contradictory.


Your free black man of the 1850s analogy is poor, at best. I won't waste my time there.

In other words, you refuse to provide a substantive rebuttal to my example.


Perhaps you could fast forward 100 years to 1950 and talk about the privilege of the black man. We all live in the modern world now and your wishful attraction to a simple, and even backward time, has no merit.

This is nothing more than contemporary hubris and snobbery. Every generation has people like you who snootily look down upon their ancestors as if they were their moral and intellectual superiors, never once stopping to appreciate all the things their ancestors contributed to the present. For example, the declaration of independence, which helped to enshrined the concept of equality into the canon of American liberalism, forms the basis for contemporary notions of "equal protection", something you claim to care about:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.


Those agencies have not trod on my liberties.

What you really mean to say is they haven't trod on liberties that you personally value.


I would submit they have, by and large, protected them.

In what way?


As far as regulation, I assume you would have no problem with someone setting up a pig farm right next door. In 1850, that would be no problem.

I might have a problem with it, but that is neither here nor there. The real question is what moral right do I have to stop them from setting up a pig farm next door to me? And the answer to that question is: It depends. Assuming the pig farm did not infringe upon my rights or violate the communal articles of incorporation, articles of incorporation that were voluntarily entered into by both parties, then there would be no basis for me to stop them, even if I had a "problem" with them doing so. You see, just because someone, somewhere has a "problem" with someone else does not justify the initiation of public or private force against them. I have a "problem" with people who sing to themselves on public transportation, for example, but that does not give me the right to walk up to them and smack their IPOD out of their hand. Similarly, I may have a "problem" with someone setting up a pig farm next door to me, but that does not give me the right to interdict their farming activities with force or the threat of force.


I agree with your example of the millions of blacks in prison. That was the premise of my post of having the lucky privilege of being born white and male. I see public discussion on those very issues and with discussion, progress is possible.

Then you are being totally contradictory. How can you deny the obvious infringement of rights and liberties while simultaneously complaining about millions of black people rotting away in prison? How can you refer to the "backwards" times of the 1800's when millions of blacks are no better than slaves in presentday America? Either you recognize the grievous assault on the liberties of Americans by the state or you don't. Which one is it?

donttread
01-24-2015, 04:20 AM
And when you are talking up the Roman empire, you always forget to include the public rape, murder, and bestiality that characterized Roman "entertainment". But the native Americans are the "savages", right?

Yes, but to off set all the slavery , rape and being fed to lions the conquered got better sanitation systems

donttread
01-24-2015, 04:23 AM
I'd call it one of the dumbest posts of the day.

Yes government is of the people.

But a family with so many parents who all disagree with each other giving the kid contradictory instructions has confused the child.

This child needs a spanking

donttread
01-24-2015, 04:29 AM
and what a success it has been!

I think most of you know from my post that I am not a bigot. But many are too afraid of being called such to point out the truth, without which we cannot even begin to solve the problem
The objective truth is that despite all the government "attempts to help" One by one every immigrant group to come to America, from the Irish to the Asians to Middle Easterners and now Hispanics , have socio-economically out competed blacks. The only feasible explanation is that most, if not all of them, possess ( as a group) much stronger family structure. Our policies do little to support and may in fact work against family structure

Mini Me
01-24-2015, 03:09 PM
Well, let me ask! Which country has the government you most admire? This government is pIG shit. So which country has the better government? You only have one life. You should be happy!

I'm so happy, I could shit!

I want one of them guv'mints ya'll can drown in a bathtub, and take all dem libral politicians with it!

Mini Me
01-24-2015, 03:14 PM
If that's true America sucks ass.

We got the government we deserve, when everyone was asleep at the wheel, and the corporatocracy bought the government, and rendered its citizens voiceless.

Mini Me
01-24-2015, 03:56 PM
LOL, yes typo. Johnson totally killed him. I didn't use to think so but @Ethereal (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=870) turned me onto this book written by a man in the White House and it's well researched and makes a super compelling case. Oliver Stone who also did shit tons of research says the book is righteous.

It can only be Johnson. The Russian government in the 90s turned over pretty much everything and their conclusion was that it was not anyone affiliated with them.

Nixon said one day; "The difference between LBJ and him was, Johnson was willing to kill to become president, and I was not"

Johnson had two paid assassins on his team, reputedly before he became Prez.

I read the book, and it was quite convincing.

domer76
01-24-2015, 09:30 PM
You admit to the existence of "protected groups", yet you know of no one who has "special rights". Seems a bit contradictory.

Do I have to school you in the meaning of protected groups or are you playing childish word games?




In other words, you refuse to provide a substantive rebuttal to my example.

There is no rebuttal to a concocted and absurd premise. Your "free black man of 1850" was just that.




This is nothing more than contemporary hubris and snobbery. Every generation has people like you who snootily look down upon their ancestors as if they were their moral and intellectual superiors, never once stopping to appreciate all the things their ancestors contributed to the present. For example, the declaration of independence, which helped to enshrined the concept of equality into the canon of American liberalism, forms the basis for contemporary notions of "equal protection", something you claim to care about:

When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.You should probably STFU about things you know nothing about. I revere my ancestors. I regularly caretake the markers of my parents, grandparents, greatgrandparents and great-great grandparents and know and admire their stories. I doubt you can say the same. Yeah, lovely document that Declaration. Except in 1776 it wasn't law. When the Constitution was finally ratified, you know, the REAL law, blacks were 3/5 of a man. How does that fit with your 1850 free black man?




What you really mean to say is they haven't trod on liberties that you personally value.

What I mean to say is that I have not lost any liberties in my life. What liberties have you personally lost?



In what way?

I can't help you if you can't pinpoint how agencies like the CIA and FBI have helped protect you.




I might have a problem with it, but that is neither here nor there. The real question is what moral right do I have to stop them from setting up a pig farm next door to me? And the answer to that question is: It depends. Assuming the pig farm did not infringe upon my rights or violate the communal articles of incorporation, articles of incorporation that were voluntarily entered into by both parties, then there would be no basis for me to stop them, even if I had a "problem" with them doing so. You see, just because someone, somewhere has a "problem" with someone else does not justify the initiation of public or private force against them. I have a "problem" with people who sing to themselves on public transportation, for example, but that does not give me the right to walk up to them and smack their IPOD out of their hand. Similarly, I may have a "problem" with someone setting up a pig farm next door to me, but that does not give me the right to interdict their farming activities with force or the threat of force.

Ah, I now see you're invoking a "communal article of incorporation" (zoning) for your moral protection. Excellent!




Then you are being totally contradictory. How can you deny the obvious infringement of rights and liberties while simultaneously complaining about millions of black people rotting away in prison? How can you refer to the "backwards" times of the 1800's when millions of blacks are no better than slaves in presentday America? Either you recognize the grievous assault on the liberties of Americans by the state or you don't. Which one is it?

You're pretty slow on this last one, so I'll simplify. It was your absurd premise of the free black man of 1850 that I made the mistake of acknowledging in the first place. But did you miss entirely my claim of white male privilege? That's exactly what I was referring to when mentioning the lack of equal treatment under the law for certain groups, specifically blacks in the criminal justice system and gays with equal civil protection. But I also indicated, in case you missed it, that this country is gradually coming around on those issues. The attention of the American public has been grabbed with events like NY City and Ferguson. That perhaps blacks in this country do not receive equal treatment in the justice system. Something that blacks have been trying to tell us for decades. Perhaps we all weren't paying attention then. Are you not paying attention now? Because it sure appears you are not.

Ethereal
01-24-2015, 10:04 PM
Do I have to school you in the meaning of protected groups or are you playing childish word games?

I doubt you could school me on anything, but if you feel like you have some kind of way to disentangle your contradictory statements, then don't let me stop you.


There is no rebuttal to a concocted and absurd premise. Your "free black man of 1850" was just that.

So you deny the existence of free blacks in 1850?


You should probably STFU about things you know nothing about.

Maybe you're the one who should STFU?


I revere my ancestors.

By calling them backwards? That's a funny way of revering them.


I regularly caretake the markers of my parents, grandparents, greatgrandparents and great-great grandparents and know and admire their stories. I doubt you can say the same.

Unlike you, I'm not the one who thinks my ancestors were "backwards".


Yeah, lovely document that Declaration. Except in 1776 it wasn't law.

It was ratified by the Congress, so I'm not sure what you're basing your opinion on.


When the Constitution was finally ratified, you know, the REAL law, blacks were 3/5 of a man. How does that fit with your 1850 free black man?

The Three-Fifths compromise does not mention skin color, and it was introduced as a means of lessening the south's representation in the federal government, so your point falls flat on its face.


What I mean to say is that I have not lost any liberties in my life.

Liberties that you personally care about, you mean.


What liberties have you personally lost?

How about the liberty to buy, sell, possess, and ingest cannabis?


I can't help you if you can't pinpoint how agencies like the CIA and FBI have helped protect you.

So you have nothing. No surprise there.


Ah, I now see you're invoking a "communal article of incorporation" (zoning) for your moral protection. Excellent!

Do you have some kind of point, or am I just supposed to read you mind? Because this statement doesn't really address, let alone rebut, a single point I made?


You're pretty slow on this last one, so I'll simplify. It was your absurd premise of the free black man of 1850 that I made the mistake of acknowledging in the first place. But did you miss entirely my claim of white male privilege? That's exactly what I was referring to when mentioning the lack of equal treatment under the law for certain groups, specifically blacks in the criminal justice system and gays with equal civil protection.

There are plenty of poor white people rotting away in prison for non-violent drug offenses, too.


But I also indicated, in case you missed it, that this country is gradually coming around on those issues. The attention of the American public has been grabbed with events like NY City and Ferguson. That perhaps blacks in this country do not receive equal treatment in the justice system. Something that blacks have been trying to tell us for decades. Perhaps we all weren't paying attention then. Are you not paying attention now? Because it sure appears you are not.

Speak for yourself. Libertarians have been both vocal and consistent in their opposition to the war on drugs for decades, and the Libertarian Party endorsed gay marriage decades before the Democrat Party. Most so-called liberals and progressives these days are nothing more than opportunistic phonies who like to piggyback libertarian rhetoric and ideology.

Alyosha
01-24-2015, 10:08 PM
I just want to insert that 53 times the SCOTUS has upheld the Declaration of Independence as part of the Constitution. Read their opinions on the Amistad case.

Mac-7
01-25-2015, 06:04 AM
I just want to insert that 53 times the SCOTUS has upheld the Declaration of Independence as part of the Constitution. Read their opinions on the Amistad case.

Don't believe that anarchist-libertarian bull.

She's steering you wrong.

Although unelected lawyers pretending to be judges can do whatever they please and insert any language into the Constitution they want to.

http://candst.tripod.com/doisussc.htm

Peter1469
01-25-2015, 08:31 AM
You are trying to hard Mac.
Don't believe that anarchist-libertarian bull.

She's steering you wrong.

Although unelected lawyers pretending to be judges can do whatever they please and insert any language into the Constitution they want to.

http://candst.tripod.com/doisussc.htm

PolWatch
01-25-2015, 08:37 AM
"the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience"

Aldous Huxley

Animal Mother
01-25-2015, 11:19 AM
I think Alyosha must have raped Mac-7 and then burnt his house to the ground. He's totally a whiny bitch where she's concerned. When men get raped it really effects them. They're never the same again. She's an evil person.

Mac-7 how big was the dildo she got you with?

Mac-7
01-25-2015, 05:56 PM
You are trying to hard Mac.

If she thinks the Declaration of Independence is part of the Constitution - and apparently she does - she is not very well informed.

Cthulhu
01-27-2015, 02:02 PM
If she thinks the Declaration of Independence is part of the Constitution - and apparently she does - she is not very well informed.
Case law...

If you don't recognize it, than you don't believe in Miranda rights either.


Sent from my evil cell phone.