View Full Version : The American Sniper Murder Trial
exotix
02-05-2015, 11:48 AM
Today
Juror Selection to Begin for 'American Sniper' Murder Trial
http://abcnews.go.com/US/jury-screening-begin-american-sniper-murder-trial/story?id=28741237
Jury selection is scheduled to begin today in the trial of Eddie Ray Routh, the Marine veteran accused of shooting Navy SEAL (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/entertainment/music/singer-seal.htm) Chris Kyle, the central character portrayed in the blockbuster movie “American Sniper (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/entertainment/movies/american-sniper-clint-eastwood.htm).”
Kyle -- who’s widely recognized for having made the highest number of confirmed kills in American military history -- was fatally shot at a gun range in Texas (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/texas.htm) in 2013. Another man, his friend Chad Littlefield, was also killed.
About 800 potential jurors have been summoned for possible selection in the trial, based upon the expectation that only about half will show up.
From that jury pool, the judge and attorneys will select 12 jurors and two alternates.
The murder trial is taking place in Stephenville, Texas, a 17,000-population city located about 100 miles southwest of Dallas (http://abcnews.go.com/topics/news/dallas-shooting.htm).
At Jake and Dorothy’s Café, which has been in operation since the 1940s, the trial has been a main topic of conversation.
“I saw the movie, and I think they are going to have a hard time finding an impartial jury,” said resident Susan Cockburn.
Routh’s attorney has said he will argue insanity and worried the movie could possibly affect the ability to pick a jury.
Video Inside
Feb. 3, 2013 booking photo of Eddie Ray Routh.
http://a.abcnews.com/images/US/HT_Eddie_Ray_Routh_mushot_130203_6_4x3_992.jpg
Calypso Jones
02-05-2015, 12:18 PM
Guy never served in combat so there was no PTSD.
But there are growing muslim connections.
My question is....did Routh's mother know what he was up to. If so, she needs to be on trial too as an accessory.
Howey
02-05-2015, 12:46 PM
Guy never served in combat so there was no PTSD.
But there are growing muslim connections.
My question is....did Routh's mother know what he was up to. If so, she needs to be on trial too as an accessory.
WHAT????
Source?
Howey
02-05-2015, 12:51 PM
Nevahmind...I see now the conspiracy sites are saying he's a converted jihad is because he grew a beard.
Can we say quack?
As in Phil Richardson?
Redrose
02-09-2015, 01:46 AM
Nevahmind...I see now the conspiracy sites are saying he's a converted jihad is because he grew a beard.
Can we say quack?
As in Phil Richardson?
Who is Phil Richardson?
PolWatch
02-09-2015, 01:52 AM
is he one of the duck men?
Redrose
02-09-2015, 02:07 AM
No, if he's going to mention someone to slam and insult, he should get the name right. It's Phil Robertson.
If he's a quack, I'd like to be a quack like him. He's a successful businessman, multi-millionaire, and has a Master's degree in education and was a teacher.
PolWatch
02-09-2015, 02:08 AM
oh...I was just guessing that quack + beard = duck tv show. (I've never watched it)
Redrose
02-09-2015, 02:19 AM
We saw "American Sniper" again tonight. It is a very intense, powerful movie. We don't do enough for our vets when they return home. You can't help but cry. Those animals in that region donot deserve one more drop of American blood. Even the women and children are killers. There is no way to tell the good from the bad. If you make a mistake, you're dead.
The movie and book indicate Routh's mother knew he was troubled when she asked Kyle to help him. She did not let on how really troubled he was. Trying to do a good deed, Kyle walked right into an ambush, and was shot in the back.
Howey
02-09-2015, 03:50 AM
oh...I was just guessing that quack + beard = duck tv show. (I've never watched it)
yup. But my mistake did cover up that these idiots thought he was a Muslim convert because he grew a beard.
Redrose
02-09-2015, 04:10 AM
oh...I was just guessing that quack + beard = duck tv show. (I've never watched it)
It's not a bad show. They are not "rednecks" in the derogatory sense. They are Southern yuppies. If you see photos of them before the show, clean shaven, they look like well to do yuppies. The beards are a gimmick to make money on the show and the sons gorgeous wives can't wait for the show to end and they can shave.
Now, papa Phil probably does wear the beard, but the sons are not into it like he is. The sons also say they do not share all of their dad's opinions.
donttread
02-09-2015, 06:28 AM
We saw "American Sniper" again tonight. It is a very intense, powerful movie. We don't do enough for our vets when they return home. You can't help but cry. Those animals in that region donot deserve one more drop of American blood. Even the women and children are killers. There is no way to tell the good from the bad. If you make a mistake, you're dead.
The movie and book indicate Routh's mother knew he was troubled when she asked Kyle to help him. She did not let on how really troubled he was. Trying to do a good deed, Kyle walked right into an ambush, and was shot in the back.
Remember it was a Hollywood movie , not a documentary. And if we'd leave they won't get anymore of our blood.
exotix
02-09-2015, 03:02 PM
Just In
Vets Fear Insanity Defense Will Grow PTSD Stigma
http://www.nbcnews.com/health/mental-health/chris-kyle-trial-vets-fear-insanity-defense-will-grow-ptsd-n302011
The trial of the man accused of killing Chris Kyle opens this week with a legal question wrapped in Hollywood irony.
Will post-traumatic stress syndrome become the legal defense for murdering the "American Sniper" — a man who helped other veterans battle the same affliction ?
Attorneys for defendant Eddie Ray Routh, an Iraq War veteran, have asked prospective jurors whether they would consider an insanity defense (http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Jury-Selection-Continues-for-Chris-Kyle-Slaying-Trial-291062541.html).
Moments after the 2013 shootings (http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/02/03/16823532-american-sniper-author-chris-kyle-fatally-shot-at-texas-gun-range?lite) of Kyle and a friend, Routh's family told police that Routh was diagnosed with PTSD (http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2013/02/911-recording-sister-of-accused-killer-eddie-ray-routh-feared-for-her-life.html/) and stayed at a mental hospital.
Among hundreds of thousands (http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/va-hospital-scandal/va-numbers-how-big-it-who-uses-it-n101771) of Iraq and Afghanistan veterans living with PTSD (http://www.ptsd.va.gov/public/PTSD-overview/basics/how-common-is-ptsd.asp), some openly worry that a weighty trial built on an insanity defense will reignite PTSD's social stigma.
And they fear that any case linking PTSD to the attack on a hero to many Americans will deepen misconceptions about the disorder — false associations that worsened veteran unemployment (http://www.nbcnews.com/feature/in-plain-sight/financial-strain-pushes-many-veterans-breaking-point-v17987594) and made some service members reluctant to seek help.
"We don't want the civilian world to be intimidated by us, to be scared or to wait for us to come in and shoot up people.
I feel like that's what this is going to do," said Andrew O'Brien, a former Army convoy gunner who served in Iraq in 2008 and 2009, surviving an IED blast.
He attempted suicide in 2010.
He was diagnosed with PTSD and now speaks at military bases (http://www.livingresilient.com/home.html) about his survival.
"It's such a big case that it's going to make us look like we're crazy, and we're not," added O'Brien, 26.
On his first post-military job interview at a Texas ranch, the owner looked the veteran over and asked: "Do you have PTSD?"
http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/newscms/2015_07/878551/150205-chris-kyle-10p_ecd1cae22e6078ced6556be16f94c4be.nbcnews-fp-1760-600.jpg
Calypso Jones
02-09-2015, 06:43 PM
that bastard Routh is not insane.
Peter1469
02-09-2015, 07:57 PM
The insanity defense is not likely to work- if it does, it won't have anything to do with PTSD. And murder likely has nothing to do with PTSD either.
Redrose
02-09-2015, 08:34 PM
Remember it was a Hollywood movie , not a documentary. And if we'd leave they won't get anymore of our blood.
I read the book, and the movie was well done. I can honestly say it was one of the best I've ever seen.
I cried like a baby when I left the theater, as did almost everyone else I saw leaving. My husband said he felt like he had just left a wake. Eastwood made it real. I think everyone needs to see it, I think it's one of the best films to show how our military suffer physically, emotionally, personally and spiritually, and how their families at home suffer too. They are fighting a psycho band of crazed zealots.
The world has gotten much smaller over the past century. Travel is possible to ever corner of the globe. Our two oceans no longer keep us relatively safe from seeing bloodshed on our soil from foreign invaders.
They can bring their ugliness to our door quite easily now. They can enter our country on student or work visas or as political refugees like the brothers in Boston. They can recruit followers right here, homegrown terrorists, those that feel disenchanted with life and are looking for some group to identify with and feel empowered.
I wish we could find a way to keep it contained over there, so we could leave them to their own devices. Thousands of years of infighting will not be stopped by any Western army. Their minds are sick. They want to kill everyone who is not one of them and does not adhere to their sick thinking.
In our world wars, our enimies didn't want to die, except the Japanese Kamakaze pilots. The German soldiers were young men fighting for their homeland, just like our guys. They wanted to go home too.
These animals we are dealing with now want to die for their cause. Religious fanatics are the worst enemy to battle. The children are being brainwashed to want the same future. By the time they are 8 or 9 they are battle worthy and will kill our military. The women are raising the next generation of savage fighters. The good ones are being slaughtered in horrible ways for helping us or not supporting the savages.
It's a nightmare. Hoping the region will be able to contain these savages may be very naive on our part.
I have heard some say they will never get established here, because most American households own guns.
That may be true, but they will not look for one on one combat, they will do more bombings like in Boston, or more strikes in a major city like 9-11. They will keep us on the defensive, reactionary, off our game. A cat and mouse game and we're the mouse.
This is my opinion, formed from all the news I've seen and reports I've been given over the years and my own observations of what I see happening worldwide.
donttread
02-10-2015, 06:10 AM
They are fighting a war half a world away and killing and dying for corporate glory. Not their fault, they believe in their "mission" . But this war is not necessary
Adelaide
02-10-2015, 09:01 AM
I don't believe that a diagnosis of PTSD will be sufficient for any insanity plea because the symptoms, while very difficult to live with, generally don't cause people to do something like this. There could be a comorbid disorder or a dual diagnosis situation which would be a more valid route to an insanity plea. The existence of an additional mental health disorder would make it possible and could actually be a genuine reason this man did what he did.
I'm not concerned about the stigma the one article mentioned about PTSD. In terms of mental illness, it's one of the few that the public tends to know a lot about and that the public tends to understand better than with many other prevalent illnesses. Other mental illnesses like postpartum depression are still 'in the closet' and highly associated with shame and misunderstanding (Nancy Grace's witch hunts don't help). People assume schizophrenics are either homeless or living in their mother's basement. Even affective disorders like depression and bipolar disorder are still deeply misunderstood especially as it applies to short-term disability claims in employment situations (take a LOA and you're just being lazy is a common perception). PTSD is really one of the few disorders that communities are having honest discussions about.
Cigar
02-10-2015, 09:05 AM
Maybe he was simply commiting White On White Murder.
Cigar
02-10-2015, 09:26 AM
Guy never served in combat so there was no PTSD.
But there are growing muslim connections.
My question is....did Routh's mother know what he was up to. If so, she needs to be on trial too as an accessory.
We normally don't look for a medical excuse for murder for anyone else.
SoonToBe2LT
02-10-2015, 09:33 AM
They are fighting a war half a world away and killing and dying for corporate glory. Not their fault, they believe in their "mission" . But this war is not necessary
Very few wars in world history were 100% "necessary". It's not a soldier's job to believe in any war, or to agree with them. This is 100% a volunteer military. It's fine if you don't believe in the mission. We may not "believe" in any mission. But we'll carry it out because it's our job. :-)
Cigar
02-10-2015, 09:36 AM
Didn't this happen at a Gun Range in The United States of America? :huh:
Who's attaking who?
PolWatch
02-10-2015, 09:37 AM
yeap, let's charge his mother for his actions....why would anyone expect a grown man to be responsible for his actions? I've heard of the Twinkie defense, but now we can look forward to the 'my mother made me do it' defense....
donttread
02-10-2015, 06:03 PM
Very few wars in world history were 100% "necessary". It's not a soldier's job to believe in any war, or to agree with them. This is 100% a volunteer military. It's fine if you don't believe in the mission. We may not "believe" in any mission. But we'll carry it out because it's our job. :-)
Aren't there intervals where you can quit the army every few years if you stop believing.? If you don't believe and you sign up to fight for what you do not believe in that makes you a mercenary.
Anyway these ME wars are far from not being 100% necessary , they are the opposite, almost 100% unnecessary. Unless you believe that Radical Islam suddenly starting" hating freedom " just after we started fucking with their internal politics
Redrose
02-10-2015, 06:19 PM
yeap, let's charge his mother for his actions....why would anyone expect a grown man to be responsible for his actions? I've heard of the Twinkie defense, but now we can look forward to the 'my mother made me do it' defense....
I read an article last evening, I'm looking for the link, it states his mom knew he was ill and probably very dangerous, more so than she let on. Mother's don't want to throw their kids to the wolves. In the book and movie, Kyle says the mom wrote to him (Kyle) asking him to help her son, a veteran. Kyle had no idea how troubled Routh really was. I'm sure if he had known, he would never have put a weapon in his hands. I wouldn't throw mom under the bus, but she should have been more honest with Kyle about her son's mental state.
It's just like the anti-gun folks blaming the mother of the young man who killed all the children in school. She knew he was mentally ill and still had weapons in the home. She paid with her life.
silvereyes
02-10-2015, 06:29 PM
Maybe he was simply commiting White On White Murder.
Shut up please.
exotix
02-17-2015, 03:56 PM
Just In
Judge Denies Defense's Request for Mistrial
http://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/american-sniper-trial-judge-denies-defenses-request-mistrial-n307726
The defense team for Eddie Ray Routh tried unsuccessfully Tuesday to convince a Texas judge to declare a mistrial in the capital murder case against the former Marine, who shot and killed "American Sniper" Chris Kyle and a friend two years ago.
Prosecutors told Judge Jason Cashon that they had misrepresented two glass vials as belonging to Routh when they were removing items from his home.
The vials were placed into a box of evidence as drug paraphernalia.
They had come from a forensic scientist who was running tests inside the house.
Lawyers for Routh, 27, sought a mistrial after the disclosure.
The judge instead instructed the jury to disregard the vials.
Prosecutors rested their case on the fifth day of testimony.
Video Inside
Routh confessing to the murders because 'They wouldn't talk to me'
http://media2.s-nbcnews.com/j/MSNBC/Components/Video/150217/tdy_rascon_sniper_150217.nbcnews-video-reststate-800.jpg
exotix
02-24-2015, 08:19 PM
Just In
Jury convenes for Deliberations
https://news.yahoo.com/american-sniper-trial-set-resume-weather-permitting-064953114.html
STEPHENVILLE, Texas (AP) — A Texas jury has begun deliberations in the capital murder trial of a former Marine in the fatal shooting of "American Sniper" author Chris Kyle and a friend of Kyle's.
State District Judge Jason Cashon turned the case over to the Erath (EE'-rath) County jury Tuesday evening after about three hours of closing arguments.
There was no indication how long jurors would be asked to deliberate Tuesday evening.
https://s1.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/RF3CbNZCoVGbR.5874lzZQ--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3M7Zmk9ZmlsbDtoPTQ2MTtpbD1wbGFuZTtweW 9mZj0wO3E9NzU7dz02ODM-/http://media.zenfs.com/en_us/News/ap_webfeeds/085391eaddbe11086f0f6a7067003efc.jpg
Redrose
02-24-2015, 08:29 PM
I hope they find him guilty. He's crazy like a fox. He knew damn well what he was doing and all that psycho charade he was spewing was to create a defense.
Kyle and Littlefield, knowing he was weird, should never have taken him to a range, and never should have turned their back on him.
He needs to be taken out of society forever, he's a problem and dangerous.
exotix
02-24-2015, 10:05 PM
*Breaking*
Verdict Reached
Redrose
02-24-2015, 10:11 PM
*Breaking*
Verdict Reached
This is the part of my job I loved. I was always afraid the courtroom could hear my heart pounding when I was reading the verdict. It's a rush.
exotix
02-24-2015, 10:13 PM
Watch Verdict Live ~ http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/texas-jury-returns-verdict-american-sniper-trial-n312101
http://i57.tinypic.com/slo552.jpg
exotix
02-24-2015, 10:21 PM
*Guilty of Capital Murder*
*Sentenced to Life without Parole*
http://i59.tinypic.com/5chati.jpg
Redrose
02-24-2015, 10:25 PM
The jury got it right. Gotta love Texas.
exotix
02-24-2015, 10:29 PM
The jury got it right. Gotta love Texas.
It's a good thing he wasn't black ... LOL
Peter1469
02-24-2015, 10:42 PM
I wonder why the prosecution called the wife first. I would have called her last.
exotix
03-03-2015, 10:52 PM
Just In
Killer Eddie Ray Routh's Attorneys File Motion for New Trial
http://www.nbcdfw.com/news/local/Eddie-Ray-Rouths-Attorneys-File-Motion-for-New-Trial-294898781.html
http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/2015/03/attorneys-for-american-sniper-killer-eddie-ray-routh-file-appeal-notice.html/
Attorneys for Eddie Ray Routh filed a motion, on Tuesday, for a new trial after Routh was found guilty in the murders of "American Sniper" author and former Navy SEAL Chris Kyle and his friend Chad Littlefield.
Routh's attorney Wendy St. John also filed an appeal to overturn his conviction on Feb. 24.
No date has been set to hear either motion filed Tuesday.
http://crimeblog.dallasnews.com/files/2015/03/AX056_0B86_9.jpg
Redrose
03-04-2015, 01:17 AM
I hope he gets "attacked" from the rear, after all he attacked Kyle and Littlefield from behind.
Peter1469
03-04-2015, 05:55 AM
I imagine he will be in protective custody for a long time. Basically solitary. It won't help his mental issues.
Common
03-04-2015, 06:54 AM
I imagine he will be in protective custody for a long time. Basically solitary. It won't help his mental issues.
Peter to be honest I couldnt give any less of a huge pile of feces how the rest of his life is. He has earned being where he is.
Peter1469
03-04-2015, 04:07 PM
Peter to be honest I couldnt give any less of a huge pile of feces how the rest of his life is. He has earned being where he is.
I don't disagree with you.
silvereyes
03-04-2015, 04:36 PM
The jury got it right. Gotta love Texas.
Ahem. Lol.
I am curious. Anybody read the book yet? Picking up my medicines at COSTCO I had paid for them and was waiting on the COSTCO pizza to get made. I wandered around to the book section. Picked up the Sniper book and tried to read some of it. I forgot my glasses. Well, I believe it was page 92 till he talked about being a sniper.
I wonder how well the movie presents his book?
Anybody know?
Generally people like books better than films of the books.
PolWatch
03-04-2015, 04:43 PM
I'm not saying this guy was innocent, but just for the sake of discussion, does anyone here think there is something odd about holding this trial in the town that declared a day to honor the victim and (I think) tried to push for a medal of honor based on the movie? Change of venue anyone? Do we now just skip even the illusion of a fair trial? Why bother?
Redrose
03-04-2015, 04:45 PM
I imagine he will be in protective custody for a long time. Basically solitary. It won't help his mental issues.
We had a serial murderer in our court, I did the trial. He raped and killed old grandmothers. Then he burned the house down. He killed 6 women. He was sentenced to death. He was killed six weeks after he got to prison, stabbed in the back during a basketball game by a prisoner who loved his grandmother.
He was supposedly in protective custody too. I can only hope.
silvereyes
03-04-2015, 04:46 PM
I've wondered why the venue wasn't changed. I don't think he stood a chance either way though.
PolWatch
03-04-2015, 04:47 PM
I've wondered why the venue wasn't changed. I don't think he stood a chance either way though.
I'm sure he didn't....and I don't have any doubt that he did shoot the people. My point is this nation is supposed to provide a trial. This was a joke if anyone thinks it was fair.
Common Sense
03-04-2015, 04:47 PM
I'm sure he didn't....and I don't have any doubt that he did shoot the people. My point is this nation is supposed to provide a trial. This was a joke if anyone thinks it was fair.
That is a valid point.
Redrose
03-04-2015, 04:48 PM
I am curious. Anybody read the book yet? Picking up my medicines at COSTCO I had paid for them and was waiting on the COSTCO pizza to get made. I wandered around to the book section. Picked up the Sniper book and tried to read some of it. I forgot my glasses. Well, I believe it was page 92 till he talked about being a sniper.
I wonder how well the movie presents his book?
Anybody know?
Generally people like books better than films of the books.
I read the book and saw the movie twice. I think the movie did the book justice.
Redrose
03-04-2015, 04:54 PM
I'm sure he didn't....and I don't have any doubt that he did shoot the people. My point is this nation is supposed to provide a trial. This was a joke if anyone thinks it was fair.
Why do you feel it wasn't fair? There was no question he did it, and his own words showed he was sane.
The jury had three choices. I feel it was a very fair trial. It was a premeditated assassination of two men who were trying to help him.
PolWatch
03-04-2015, 04:57 PM
The jury pool is from a city that had a day set aside to honor the victim. I believe they were trying to get him a medal of honor based on the movie. Do you think the jury pool was full of people who had not already decided on the guilt or innocence of the one on trial? I'm not asking if you think the verdict was correct, I'm asking does that circumstance equal a fair trial? How many times have you seen a juror empaneled when they admit major exposure to publicity or know someone associated with the person on trial?
silvereyes
03-04-2015, 05:00 PM
Im sure there wasnt a single un-biased juror there.
Redrose
03-04-2015, 05:11 PM
The jury pool is from a city that had a day set aside to honor the victim. I believe they were trying to get him a medal of honor based on the movie. Do you think the jury pool was full of people who had not already decided on the guilt or innocence of the one on trial? I'm not asking if you think the verdict was correct, I'm asking does that circumstance equal a fair trial? How many times have you seen a juror empaneled when they admit major exposure to publicity or know someone associated with the person on trial?
I agree most people all over the country knew of Kyle and his career. Some liked him, some didn't.
A jury pool would have been pulled from the locals. They may have had their own opinions but none of them would have the evidence provided at the trial as to Roush's mental health. I know I didn't and I follow this stuff closely. All the jurors were asked, before hand, was could they be fair in judging the evidence as to his mental state. When I heard the evidence, I felt he was cognizant of the crime, and not insane according to the legal definition. Before the trial, I was on the fence with that point. The evidence was clear he was quite aware it was wrong and his actions afterward were not that of a mentally deficient person. I agree with taking the death penalty off the table. He was disturbed, but his condition did not meet the legal definition of insanity. Even their adoration of Kyle couldn't make the evidence any better for Roush.
PolWatch
03-04-2015, 05:25 PM
I agree most people all over the country knew of Kyle and his career. Some liked him, some didn't.
A jury pool would have been pulled from the locals. They may have had their own opinions but none of them would have the evidence provided at the trial as to Roush's mental health. I know I didn't and I follow this stuff closely. All the jurors were asked, before hand, was could they be fair in judging the evidence as to his mental state. When I heard the evidence, I felt he was cognizant of the crime, and not insane according to the legal definition. Before the trial, I was on the fence with that point. The evidence was clear he was quite aware it was wrong and his actions afterward were not that of a mentally deficient person. I agree with taking the death penalty off the table. He was disturbed, but his condition did not meet the legal definition of insanity. Even their adoration of Kyle couldn't make the evidence any better for Roush.
But you didn't answer my question. Do you think it reasonable to expect an unbiased juror in that city? Have you ever seen a trial that started when the chances of finding just one undecided person was so great? I don't disagree with the verdict...that's not my point. I'm wondering when it became acceptable to not even care if the appearance of a fair trail mattered. When did we stop caring about things like that?
I've seen more care taken with trials of mass murderers....this man killed only 2 people. Small potatoes in the murder game. Because of a movie, he doesn't rate even the appearance of a fair trial?
I'm not saying this guy was innocent, but just for the sake of discussion, does anyone here think there is something odd about holding this trial in the town that declared a day to honor the victim and (I think) tried to push for a medal of honor based on the movie? Change of venue anyone? Do we now just skip even the illusion of a fair trial? Why bother?
Like you said, you are not saying he is innocent.
What do we all know of the jury?
This among other reasons is why i believe in the professional jury.
We pay judges, and lawyers, but we treat the jury as amateurs.
Even now, you question the jury. If it was professional, I doubt you would.
Im sure there wasnt a single un-biased juror there.
Better to have a professional jury.
Redrose
03-04-2015, 07:16 PM
But you didn't answer my question. Do you think it reasonable to expect an unbiased juror in that city? Have you ever seen a trial that started when the chances of finding just one undecided person was so great? I don't disagree with the verdict...that's not my point. I'm wondering when it became acceptable to not even care if the appearance of a fair trail mattered. When did we stop caring about things like that?
I've seen more care taken with trials of mass murderers....this man killed only 2 people. Small potatoes in the murder game. Because of a movie, he doesn't rate even the appearance of a fair trial?
If the State or Defense feels there is undue bias in the county, they can move to have a change of venue. Apparently it was decided a change of venue would not make any difference.
During a voir dire, both sides question and select the jurors. The have a predetermined amount of juror strikes they can use to eliminate someone they feel would not be fair. The final panel is the result of both sides approved choices. Apparently the defense was OK with the jury selected.
Everyone has biases, they jurors are asked if they can set aside their biases and decide solely on the evidence presented.
Redrose
As you know, I advocate for professional juries. I can lay out the case, but suffice other than the witnesses, only the Jury is expected to end up with a professional job yet not be professionals themselves.
I believe it would create a faster justice system. I have other thoughts on it being better but let's start with the above.
Do you support the amateur jury or professional jury?
Peter1469
03-04-2015, 07:29 PM
Like you said, you are not saying he is innocent.
What do we all know of the jury?
This among other reasons is why i believe in the professional jury.
We pay judges, and lawyers, but we treat the jury as amateurs.
Even now, you question the jury. If it was professional, I doubt you would.
If we don't want citizen juries just have judges be the trier of fact. A professional jury would be redundant.
silvereyes
03-04-2015, 07:38 PM
@Redrose (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1123)
As you know, I advocate for professional juries. I can lay out the case, but suffice other than the witnesses, only the Jury is expected to end up with a professional job yet not be professionals themselves.
I believe it would create a faster justice system. I have other thoughts on it being better but let's start with the above.
Do you support the amateur jury or professional jury?
Whos going to pay for them? Taxpayers?
Redrose
03-04-2015, 08:22 PM
@Redrose (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1123)
As you know, I advocate for professional juries. I can lay out the case, but suffice other than the witnesses, only the Jury is expected to end up with a professional job yet not be professionals themselves.
I believe it would create a faster justice system. I have other thoughts on it being better but let's start with the above.
Do you support the amateur jury or professional jury?
I am against a professional jury. They are still people with inherent biases. They could also be "persuaded" to vote a particular way. It would invite corruption.
In the court system, county level where I worked, we had several trials each week. We had 9 courtrooms and all were in use most of the time. Trials from traffic cases to murder. Hundreds of people were called in each week to pick the juries needed for each trial. Professional juries would limit the choices for each case. The way it is now, if the trial is about rape, they would try to not choose people who were raped or had a family member raped to avoid any biases. Same for domestic violence, murder, car theft, drug charges, etc. or had an occupation either themselves or family, that could bias them like police or prosecutors. No one picked for a jury should have any close affiliation with the nature of the case. If an attorney is on trial, no one on the jury should have a close affilation with that profession.
That is why such large jury pools are called in. A professional jury would actually create a more prejudiced jury. IMO
If I was on trial, I would probably opt for a bench trial with no jury, the judge would hear my case and decide. At least I know the judge knows the proper way to weigh the evidence according to the law.
Mr. Right
03-04-2015, 08:44 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the defendant was afforded what is called for, a jury of his peers. Moving a trial out of the venue doesn't lend itself to an alteration of the facts.
Peter1469
03-04-2015, 09:01 PM
The case had national attention. It wouldn't have mattered to move it.
If we don't want citizen juries just have judges be the trier of fact. A professional jury would be redundant.
Yeah, what's wrong with that? How about 3 judges on the bench.
As far as I'm concerned, the defendant was afforded what is called for, a jury of his peers. Moving a trial out of the venue doesn't lend itself to an alteration of the facts.
I forget where Jury of the peers came from but it is not in the constitution.
Peter1469
03-04-2015, 10:41 PM
Yeah, what's wrong with that? How about 3 judges on the bench.
Many courts do that.
Peter1469
03-04-2015, 10:42 PM
I forget where Jury of the peers came from but it is not in the constitution.
English Common Law.
The entire point is to have someone(s) not associated with the State part of the process.
English courts were corrupt in the way back. The concept of the jury was to get citizens in there to call bull shit when things went south.
I am against a professional jury. They are still people with inherent biases. They could also be "persuaded" to vote a particular way. It would invite corruption.
In the court system, county level where I worked, we had several trials each week. We had 9 courtrooms and all were in use most of the time. Trials from traffic cases to murder. Hundreds of people were called in each week to pick the juries needed for each trial. Professional juries would limit the choices for each case. The way it is now, if the trial is about rape, they would try to not choose people who were raped or had a family member raped to avoid any biases. Same for domestic violence, murder, car theft, drug charges, etc. or had an occupation either themselves or family, that could bias them like police or prosecutors. No one picked for a jury should have any close affiliation with the nature of the case. If an attorney is on trial, no one on the jury should have a close affilation with that profession.
That is why such large jury pools are called in. A professional jury would actually create a more prejudiced jury. IMO
If I was on trial, I would probably opt for a bench trial with no jury, the judge would hear my case and decide. At least I know the judge knows the proper way to weigh the evidence according to the law.
Thank you so much. It ends up that you personally would opt for the professional jury. While it is the Judge, he is the paid professional.
English Common Law.
The entire point is to have someone(s) not associated with the State part of the process.
English courts were corrupt in the way back. The concept of the jury was to get citizens in there to call bull shit when things went south.
Thanks for the clarification.
Whos going to pay for them? Taxpayers?
Who will pay for professional juries. The same people who pay for lawyers, Judges and the court help.
Redrose
03-05-2015, 12:52 AM
Thank you so much. It ends up that you personally would opt for the professional jury. While it is the Judge, he is the paid professional.
Yes, but judges are well educated in the law, years of education, a professional jury wouldn't be. A professional jury would become just as corrupt as our professional elected officials in the Congress. Bought and paid for.
Yes, but judges are well educated in the law, years of education, a professional jury wouldn't be. A professional jury would become just as corrupt as our professional elected officials in the Congress. Bought and paid for.
Glad you brought that up since my plan would completely educate the jury on what they need to function in the court of law. As you know, lawyers get a complete law education. A lawyer dealing with divorce still was educated in contract law, criminal law and much more. The jury would only need the law education in criminal law and perhaps a bit more such as contract law.
It is possible to cut down the number on the jury using my system. I know we are resistant to change but look at the system now. We see challenges to it constantly. A convicted killer can count on 20 more years of life. And over the country billions of dollars in challenges to jury rulings. Juries make a lot of mistakes and that in part is what I want corrected.
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