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Redrose
02-25-2015, 02:27 AM
A very good, informative book.


Secrets of the Secret Service

By Ronald Kessler




Very interesting but not surprising. Scroll down to read what Kessler thinks of the presidents he served. And now, you'll know the rest of the story. Interesting snippets from Ronald Kessler's book about our presidents.




JOHN & JACQUELINE KENNEDY*A philanderer of the highest order.**She ordered the kitchen help to save all the left-over wine from State dinners, mixed it with fresh wine and served again during the next White House occasion.*




LYNDON & LADYBIRD JOHNSON*Another philanderer of the highest order. In addition, LBJ was as crude as the day is long. Both JFK and LBJ kept a lot of women in the White House for extramarital affairs and both had set up early warning systems to alert them if/when their wives were nearby. Both were promiscuous and oversexed men.**She was either naive or just pretended to not know about her husband's many liaisons.*




RICHARD & PAT NIXON*A "moral" man but very odd, weird, paranoid. He had a horrible relationship with his family and was almost a recluse.**She was quiet most of the time.*




SPIRO AGNEW*Nice, decent man. Everyone in the Secret Service was surprised by his downfall.*

GERALD & BETTY FORD*A true gentlemen who treated the Secret Service with respect and dignity. He had a great sense of humor. **She drank a lot!*




JIMMY & ROSALYN CARTER*A complete phony who would portray one picture of himself to public and very different in private e.g. would be shown carrying his own luggage but the suitcases were always empty. He kept empty ones just for photo ops. He wanted people to see him as pious and a non-drinker but he and his family drank alcohol a lot! He had disdain for the Secret Service and was very irresponsible with the "football" with nuclear codes. He didn't think it was a big deal and would keep military aides at a great distance. Often did not acknowledge the presence of Secret Service personnel assigned to serve him.**She mostly did her own thing.*




RONALD & NANCY REAGAN*The real deal, moral, honest, respectful and dignified. They treated Secret Service and everyone else with respect and honor, thanked everyone all the time. He took the time to know everyone on a personal level. One favorite story was early in his Presidency when he came out of his room with a pistol tucked on his hip. The agent in charge asked: "Why the pistol, Mr. President?" He replied, "In case you boys can't get the job done, I can help." It was common for him to carry a pistol. When he met with Gorbachev, he had a pistol in his briefcase. *She was very nice but very protective of the President and the Secret Service was often caught in the middle. She tried hard to control what he ate. He would say to the agent, "Come on, you gotta help me out." The Reagan's drank wine during State dinners and special occasions only otherwise they shunned alcohol. The Secret Service could count on one hand the times they were served wine during family dinner. For all the fake bluster of the Carters, the Reagan's were the ones who lived life as genuinely moral people.*




GEORGE H. & BARBARA BUSH*Extremely kind and considerate, always respectful. Took great care in making sure the agents' comforts were taken care of. They even brought them meals. One time she brought warm clothes to agents standing outside at Kennebunkport. One was given a warm hat and, when he tried to say "no thanks" even though he was obviously freezing, the President said "Son, don't argue with the First Lady. Put the hat on." He was the most prompt of the Presidents. He ran the White House like a well-oiled machine.**She ruled the house and spoke her mind.*




BILL & HILLARY CLINTON*Presidency was one giant party. Not trustworthy. He was nice mainly because he wanted everyone to like him but to him life is just one big game and party. Everyone knows about his sexuality.**She is another phony. Her personality would change the instant cameras were near. She hated, with open disdain the military and Secret Service. She was another who felt people were there to serve her. She was always trying to keep tabs on Bill Clinton.*




ALBERT GORE *An egotistical ass who was once overheard by his Secret Service detail lecturing his son that he needed to do better in school or he would end up like these guys, pointing to the agents.*




GEORGE W. & LAURA BUSH*The Secret Service loved him and Laura Bush. He was also the most physically in shape who had a very strict workout regimen. The Bushes made sure their entire administrative and household staff understood that they were to respect and be considerate of the Secret Service.**She was one of the nicest First Ladies, if not the nicest. She never had any harsh word to say about anyone.*




*BARACK & MICHELLE OBAMA*Clinton all over again - hates the military and looks down on the Secret Service. He is egotistical and cunning. He looks you in the eye and appears to agree with you but turns around and does the opposite. He has temper tantrums.**She is a complete bitch who basically hates anybody who is not black, hates the military and looks at the Secret Service as servants.*




A ‘TRUE STORY ABOUT’ General McChrystal's resignation in Obama's office from General McChrystal's book! NEVER STAND IN LINE AGAINSome men carry and handle their diplomacy better than others. When former U.S. Military commander in Afghanistan, General McChrystal, was called into the Oval Office by Barack Obama, he knew things weren't going to go well when the President accused him of not supporting him in his political role as President. "It's not my job to support you as a politician, Mr. President, it's my job to support you as Commander-in-Chief," McChrystal replied, and he handed Obama his resignation. Not satisfied with accepting McChrystal's resignation, the President made a cheap parting shot. "I bet when I die you'll be happy to piss on my grave." The General saluted and said, "Mr. President, I always told myself after leaving the Army I'd never stand in line again."

Peter1469
02-25-2015, 02:34 AM
The book got some negative reviews.

Redrose
02-25-2015, 03:44 AM
The book got some negative reviews.


I liked it. Most of it I was aware of from other reports over the years. It was interesting to hear these stories from someone who was there. There were no great revelations other than Jackie Kennedy was cheap with the wine. That surprised me given her affluent upbringing.

Common
02-25-2015, 03:52 AM
Its just about his personal opinion, I doubt he could severe his politics from his opinion either.
Personally I take his opinion with a grain of salt. Mind that I have no skin in the game, I dont care who he likes or doesnt.

Peter1469
02-25-2015, 05:01 AM
Its just about his personal opinion, I doubt he could severe his politics from his opinion either.
Personally I take his opinion with a grain of salt. Mind that I have no skin in the game, I dont care who he likes or doesnt.

It isn't one guys opinion, it is short interviews with many agents. From the review that I read it reads like the National Enquirer.

Howey
02-25-2015, 05:22 AM
It isn't one guys opinion, it is short interviews with many agents. From the review that I read it reads like the National Enquirer.

He tricked an agent into getting access to other agents for what he promised was a "serious" book. Then pushed for malicious gossip and heresay on the democrats. He's been criticized as both partisan and petty, as well as inaccurate.

PolWatch
02-25-2015, 05:28 AM
Odd, that every Republican president was wonderful and every Democrat was a terrible person. The title should be 'Partisan Opinions'. I find it hard to believe that bad behavior is limited to one party...(expletive deleted).

Max Rockatansky
02-25-2015, 05:49 AM
Odd, that every Republican president was wonderful and every Democrat was a terrible person. The title should be 'Partisan Opinions'. I find it hard to believe that bad behavior is limited to one party...(expletive deleted).
Obviously there's bias, some cherry-picking. OTOH, let's be honest. How far off the main road do we all find these stories? Completely off base? A little exaggerated?


The General saluted and said, "Mr. President, I always told myself after leaving the Army I'd never stand in line again."Now that's funny!

Max Rockatansky
02-25-2015, 06:00 AM
http://www.amazon.com/In-Presidents-Secret-Service-Protect/dp/030746136X

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/12/jenna-bush-mary-cheney-we_n_258091.html

They [the Bush twins] were a terror. Of course they got better later on. Jenna, especially, would purposely evade the Secret Service, would actually go through red lights to evade her detail. She and her then-boyfriend who became her husband, Henry Hager, became so drunk - he did - at a Halloween party that the agents had to take him to Georgetown University Hospital.

The other time, they almost got into a brawl at a bar in Georgetown. They had to intervene. Very, very difficult.

Mary Cheney, also, wanted to get the Secret Service to take her friends to restaurants. And the Secret Service refused. For that, she had the detail leader removed.

Interesting interview of Kessler: http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/frontpagemag-com/ronald-kessler-on-the-secrets-of-the-secret-service/

Right. Well, the first First Lady that comes to mind is Pat Nixon. She had a big alcohol problem. It got worse when they left the White House. One time, at San Clemente, an agent heard rustling in the bushes at night. He cocked his shotgun. And it turned out it was Pat Nixon, totally drunk, crawling on the ground, trying to find her house.

And she and Nixon never talked. They would play golf together, but they wouldn’t say a word throughout the whole golf game.

Nixon was a very strange guy, as you might’ve surmised. One day, he was watching TV at San Clemente. An agent was watching through a window at the home. And Nixon was feeding his dog dog biscuits. And then he took one of the biscuits and put it in his mouth and ate it.

Let’s see, who else? Well, Ronald Reagan and Nancy. Ronald Reagan was just as genuine as he appeared to be on TV, just as gracious. He would — whenever he went into Air Force One, he would greet the pilots and the copilots in the cockpit. Jimmy Carter did that only once during his whole four-year term.

One day, Reagan was coming down — about to go into the elevator in the residence in the White House. And an aide came up and told him about the Donna Rice affair with Gary Hart, and it was going to be in the paper the next day. And Reagan said — well, boys will be boys. And then he went up in the elevator with this agent. And then he said to the agent — but boys will not be President.

PolWatch
02-25-2015, 06:07 AM
I don't doubt the stories are true. I agree with the phrase 'cherry picking'. People don't reach that level of political power without expecting to use it. They are all of a personality type needed to reach those heights. I don't think those personality traits mean they are gentle, kind people....no matter what their party. Money & power.....

del
02-25-2015, 11:37 AM
anyone who would describe nixon as "moral" isn't worth the effort to scrape off my shoe.

fail

Redrose
02-25-2015, 01:58 PM
As I said before none of that was new news to me. All of those personality quirks were common knowledge to most people who followed politics reularly outside the 6pm news.

All Kessler did was give the background to what the public had heard about their First Families.

JFK and LBJ philanderers, common knowledge, Nixon was weird, a recluse, Pat stayed in the shadows, Betty Ford drank and had a drug issue, shocker! Betty Ford Clinic.....remember? Gerald Ford personable and clumsy, Carter a phony, "I lust in my heart" Baptist minister, the Reagans were social and pleasant, same as their Hollywood reputation, Gore, a giant ass, no surprise there, he still is...just ask Tipper. The Bushes, regardless of political policy, they treated the SS and staff well and were the same in front of the cameras as well as behind. Then the Clintons and Obamas....they both had little respect for the SS and the military and Hillary is a shrew. Well, wouldn't you be if you were married to Bill? Bill, life is one big party. Anyone surprised there?

As to the comments about Michelle, I would agree with the book, but if you are a MO fan, you'd disagree. Obama....shrewd, clever politician who has temper tantrums. He admitted that himself, but he said he did it as a child. He admitted he was spoiled.

Sometimes the truth hurts.

Bob
02-25-2015, 02:09 PM
A very good, informative book.


Secrets of the Secret Service

By Ronald Kessler




Very interesting but not surprising. Scroll down to read what Kessler thinks of the presidents he served. And now, you'll know the rest of the story. Interesting snippets from Ronald Kessler's book about our presidents.




JOHN & JACQUELINE KENNEDY*A philanderer of the highest order.**She ordered the kitchen help to save all the left-over wine from State dinners, mixed it with fresh wine and served again during the next White House occasion.*




LYNDON & LADYBIRD JOHNSON*Another philanderer of the highest order. In addition, LBJ was as crude as the day is long. Both JFK and LBJ kept a lot of women in the White House for extramarital affairs and both had set up early warning systems to alert them if/when their wives were nearby. Both were promiscuous and oversexed men.**She was either naive or just pretended to not know about her husband's many liaisons.*




RICHARD & PAT NIXON*A "moral" man but very odd, weird, paranoid. He had a horrible relationship with his family and was almost a recluse.**She was quiet most of the time.*




SPIRO AGNEW*Nice, decent man. Everyone in the Secret Service was surprised by his downfall.*

GERALD & BETTY FORD*A true gentlemen who treated the Secret Service with respect and dignity. He had a great sense of humor. **She drank a lot!*




JIMMY & ROSALYN CARTER*A complete phony who would portray one picture of himself to public and very different in private e.g. would be shown carrying his own luggage but the suitcases were always empty. He kept empty ones just for photo ops. He wanted people to see him as pious and a non-drinker but he and his family drank alcohol a lot! He had disdain for the Secret Service and was very irresponsible with the "football" with nuclear codes. He didn't think it was a big deal and would keep military aides at a great distance. Often did not acknowledge the presence of Secret Service personnel assigned to serve him.**She mostly did her own thing.*




RONALD & NANCY REAGAN*The real deal, moral, honest, respectful and dignified. They treated Secret Service and everyone else with respect and honor, thanked everyone all the time. He took the time to know everyone on a personal level. One favorite story was early in his Presidency when he came out of his room with a pistol tucked on his hip. The agent in charge asked: "Why the pistol, Mr. President?" He replied, "In case you boys can't get the job done, I can help." It was common for him to carry a pistol. When he met with Gorbachev, he had a pistol in his briefcase. *She was very nice but very protective of the President and the Secret Service was often caught in the middle. She tried hard to control what he ate. He would say to the agent, "Come on, you gotta help me out." The Reagan's drank wine during State dinners and special occasions only otherwise they shunned alcohol. The Secret Service could count on one hand the times they were served wine during family dinner. For all the fake bluster of the Carters, the Reagan's were the ones who lived life as genuinely moral people.*




GEORGE H. & BARBARA BUSH*Extremely kind and considerate, always respectful. Took great care in making sure the agents' comforts were taken care of. They even brought them meals. One time she brought warm clothes to agents standing outside at Kennebunkport. One was given a warm hat and, when he tried to say "no thanks" even though he was obviously freezing, the President said "Son, don't argue with the First Lady. Put the hat on." He was the most prompt of the Presidents. He ran the White House like a well-oiled machine.**She ruled the house and spoke her mind.*




BILL & HILLARY CLINTON*Presidency was one giant party. Not trustworthy. He was nice mainly because he wanted everyone to like him but to him life is just one big game and party. Everyone knows about his sexuality.**She is another phony. Her personality would change the instant cameras were near. She hated, with open disdain the military and Secret Service. She was another who felt people were there to serve her. She was always trying to keep tabs on Bill Clinton.*




ALBERT GORE *An egotistical ass who was once overheard by his Secret Service detail lecturing his son that he needed to do better in school or he would end up like these guys, pointing to the agents.*




GEORGE W. & LAURA BUSH*The Secret Service loved him and Laura Bush. He was also the most physically in shape who had a very strict workout regimen. The Bushes made sure their entire administrative and household staff understood that they were to respect and be considerate of the Secret Service.**She was one of the nicest First Ladies, if not the nicest. She never had any harsh word to say about anyone.*




*BARACK & MICHELLE OBAMA*Clinton all over again - hates the military and looks down on the Secret Service. He is egotistical and cunning. He looks you in the eye and appears to agree with you but turns around and does the opposite. He has temper tantrums.**She is a complete bitch who basically hates anybody who is not black, hates the military and looks at the Secret Service as servants.*




A ‘TRUE STORY ABOUT’ General McChrystal's resignation in Obama's office from General McChrystal's book! NEVER STAND IN LINE AGAINSome men carry and handle their diplomacy better than others. When former U.S. Military commander in Afghanistan, General McChrystal, was called into the Oval Office by Barack Obama, he knew things weren't going to go well when the President accused him of not supporting him in his political role as President. "It's not my job to support you as a politician, Mr. President, it's my job to support you as Commander-in-Chief," McChrystal replied, and he handed Obama his resignation. Not satisfied with accepting McChrystal's resignation, the President made a cheap parting shot. "I bet when I die you'll be happy to piss on my grave." The General saluted and said, "Mr. President, I always told myself after leaving the Army I'd never stand in line again."































Unlimited access backs up that book. Gary Aldrich pulled the plug on the Clinton regime. He too was super impressed and delighted with Reagan and his wife.

Redrose
02-25-2015, 02:14 PM
anyone who would describe nixon as "moral" isn't worth the effort to scrape off my shoe.

fail


I would have to agree with that del. As much as I liked Nixon as a president, I think he was a dirty politician, but to be honest THEY ALL ARE. He was just dumb enough to get caught.

I read biographies, my favorite read. I've read biographies on most of those presidents and much of what Kessler wrote is included in those books. Nixon was "moral" as to his marriage and children, but not in his political life. Unlike JFK and LBJ and Bill Clinton who had zipper trouble.

Bob
02-25-2015, 02:15 PM
Odd, that every Republican president was wonderful and every Democrat was a terrible person. The title should be 'Partisan Opinions'. I find it hard to believe that bad behavior is limited to one party...(expletive deleted).

Well, no matter that, since this is of record by the FBI and Secret Service, which story of which president do you believe is wrong?

Cigar
02-25-2015, 02:21 PM
The Boss as Seen by The Subordinate ... don't need to read the Book, already know the ending.

Bob
02-25-2015, 02:23 PM
I would have to agree with that @del (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=770). As much as I liked Nixon as a president, I think he was a dirty politician, but to be honest THEY ALL ARE. He was just dumb enough to get caught.

I read biographies, my favorite read. I've read biographies on most of those presidents and much of what Kessler wrote is included in those books. Nixon was "moral" as to his marriage and children, but not in his political life. Unlike JFK and LBJ and Bill Clinton who had zipper trouble.

I was then a Democrat and quite typical of Democrats, I despised Nixon. We in CA called him Tricky Dick for his dirty politics.

If you have not read Gary Aldrich's book, now would be the time. He no doubt applauds Kessler for being honest. Aldrich also said that there is a tunnel below the street to the Blair House. (I plan to recheck the book in case I am wrong) that was used by Clinton to sneak out of the WH to meet women. Apparently what we know of Clinton was the tip of the iceberg.

I say again, this talks of Clinton sneaking out but is not what I am talking about.

I might be wrong.

http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/dig-bill-secret-tunnel-passage-links-oval-office-living-quarters-article-1.723092

Amid allegations that President Clinton likes to slip out of the White House in the wee hours without security, new evidence has emerged of at least one novel escape route: a secret tunnel beneath the White House. The 50-yard passageway won't get the President too far it leads only from the Oval Office to the basement of the First Family's residence in the East Wing of the White House, according to this week's U.


. Any President, sources say, could use the tunnel to move between the residence and the Oval Office. The report comes as the White House is struggling to fend off allegations in a new book by retired FBI agent Gary Aldrich, who charges that Clinton periodically slipped out of the White House in the wee hours without Secret Service pro tection. Aldrich, basing his charges on information supplied by an unnamed "experienced investigator," argues that Clinton is, at minimum, subjecting himself to the risk of abduction or attack by traveling without bodyguards.

Redrose
02-25-2015, 02:54 PM
Bob

I have read Aldrich's book "Unlimited Access" and another Kessler book "Inside the WH".
I am half way through "Within Arms Length" by Dan Emmett. All three are great reads. All of what has been revealed is not really shocking just a bit more detail.

Bob
02-25-2015, 03:01 PM
@Bob (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1013)

I have read Aldrich's book "Unlimited Access" and another Kessler book "Inside the WH".
I am half way through "Within Arms Length" by Dan Emmett. All three are great reads. All of what has been revealed is not really shocking just a bit more detail.

I need to read those other books. Thanks for treating this forum to a lesson. Redrose

SoonToBe2LT
02-25-2015, 03:19 PM
Odd, that every Republican president was wonderful and every Democrat was a terrible person. The title should be 'Partisan Opinions'. I find it hard to believe that bad behavior is limited to one party...(expletive deleted).

It's not that odd. Republicans go out of their way to create job expansion in the military. Remember, Obama cuts 500 BILLION from the defense budget, destroying jobs and displacing soldiers/contractors.

I'll tell ya one thing, at my armory, when Obama was re-elected, there was not a happy face in sight.

SoonToBe2LT
02-25-2015, 03:23 PM
Especially our Guard- full-timers. I conducted manpower studies for years and then Obama's budget cuts start hitting, armories all over the nation have to either shut down or drill with other units.

That's why Military/Secret service personnel (usually prior service or former LEOs) don't like democrats.

Max Rockatansky
02-25-2015, 08:08 PM
Especially our Guard- full-timers. I conducted manpower studies for years and then Obama's budget cuts start hitting, armories all over the nation have to either shut down or drill with other units.

That's why Military/Secret service personnel (usually prior service or former LEOs) don't like democrats.

Welcome to the club!

Life is half luck. I was unlucky enough to miss Vietnam (my plan was to become a WOC helicopter pilot out of high school and be in Vietnam by age 20) but lucky enough to have been on active duty in the Marine Corps when President Reagan entered office and enacted "Peace through Strength". I was also still in service when President Clinton entered office with a post-Cold War, anti-military agenda then flip-flopped and started sending our troops into Bosnia and Haiti.

Pastor Charles Swindoll once wisely said "The longer I live the more convinced I become that life is 10 percent what happens to us and 90 percent how we respond to it".

I don't blame the Republicans, the Democrats or any particular asshole who is in office for the way my career went, what happened to me, my friends or how things turned out for everyone. The forces at work here are way beyond the power of any single person or even group.

We can blame our failures on others, blame ourselves or simply choose to accept what happens and choose our attitude on how we respond to it. Your call.

Peter1469
02-25-2015, 08:46 PM
Welcome to the club!

Life is half luck. I was unlucky enough to miss Vietnam (my plan was to become a WOC helicopter pilot out of high school and be in Vietnam by age 20) but lucky enough to have been on active duty in the Marine Corps when President Reagan entered office and enacted "Peace through Strength". I was also still in service when President Clinton entered office with a post-Cold War, anti-military agenda then flip-flopped and started sending our troops into Bosnia and Haiti.

Pastor Charles Swindoll once wisely said "The longer I live the more convinced I become that life is 10 percent what happens to us and 90 percent how we respond to it".

I don't blame the Republicans, the Democrats or any particular asshole who is in office for the way my career went, what happened to me, my friends or how things turned out for everyone. The forces at work here are way beyond the power of any single person or even group.

We can blame our failures on others, blame ourselves or simply choose to accept what happens and choose our attitude on how we respond to it. Your call.

Correct, rational leaders are constrained by geopolitical realities. American has had a rather steady grand strategy for over 100 years. I mean very top level.

SoonToBe2LT
02-26-2015, 07:38 AM
Welcome to the club!

Life is half luck. I was unlucky enough to miss Vietnam (my plan was to become a WOC helicopter pilot out of high school and be in Vietnam by age 20) but lucky enough to have been on active duty in the Marine Corps when President Reagan entered office and enacted "Peace through Strength". I was also still in service when President Clinton entered office with a post-Cold War, anti-military agenda then flip-flopped and started sending our troops into Bosnia and Haiti.

Pastor Charles Swindoll once wisely said "The longer I live the more convinced I become that life is 10 percent what happens to us and 90 percent how we respond to it".

I don't blame the Republicans, the Democrats or any particular $#@! who is in office for the way my career went, what happened to me, my friends or how things turned out for everyone. The forces at work here are way beyond the power of any single person or even group.

We can blame our failures on others, blame ourselves or simply choose to accept what happens and choose our attitude on how we respond to it. Your call.

True, but I can absolutely blame Democrats. They literally devised the plan to cut the budget and force soldiers out of the military, jobless. Although blaming doesn't do much good or change anything, so I merely stopped caring.

Max Rockatansky
02-26-2015, 08:18 AM
True, but I can absolutely blame Democrats. They literally devised the plan to cut the budget and force soldiers out of the military, jobless. Although blaming doesn't do much good or change anything, so I merely stopped caring.

Democrats have always been like Mothers; they would rather sell all the furniture to feed the kids meat today than see the wisdom of renting out that furniture and feeding the kids mac'n'cheese for the foreseeable future.

Democrats have always been of the mindset that if we only laid down our guns, everyone else would do the same. Saner people realize that's insane, albeit very loving. OTOH, we don't need to have a houseful of guns and no food either. A compromise must be found which balances a strong, capable military for security of US citizens at home and abroad, with a sound, sustainable economy. Running up debt and building a welfare state, be it personal or corporate, is not sound.

SoonToBe2LT
02-26-2015, 08:29 AM
Democrats have always been like Mothers; they would rather sell all the furniture to feed the kids meat today than see the wisdom of renting out that furniture and feeding the kids mac'n'cheese for the foreseeable future.

Democrats have always been of the mindset that if we only laid down our guns, everyone else would do the same. Saner people realize that's insane, albeit very loving. OTOH, we don't need to have a houseful of guns and no food either. A compromise must be found which balances a strong, capable military for security of US citizens at home and abroad, with a sound, sustainable economy. Running up debt and building a welfare state, be it personal or corporate, is not sound.

True. That's why I always found it odd that Democrats hated Bush so much. He used our money like a liberal and was the opposite of conservative fiscally.

But he did strengthen our military which I was proud of. He didn't gut it like a fish like our current President, who never wore a uniform.

Max Rockatansky
02-26-2015, 08:33 AM
True. That's why I always found it odd that Democrats hated Bush so much. He used our money like a liberal and was the opposite of conservative fiscally.

But he did strengthen our military which I was proud of. He didn't get it like a fish like our current President, who never wore a uniform.

The Republican Party has moved away from being the party of fiscal sanity and national defense to become the party of religious ideology. Because of that, they are more like Democrats who worship socialist ideology, than conservatives of my day.

Just so we're clear, I'm a conservative in the mold of Barry Goldwater, not those who call themselves conservatives but are really ideological zealots.

SoonToBe2LT
02-26-2015, 08:38 AM
The Republican Party has moved away from being the party of fiscal sanity and national defense to become the party of religious ideology. Because of that, they are more like Democrats who worship socialist ideology, than conservatives of my day.

Just so we're clear, I'm a conservative in the mold of Barry Goldwater, not those who call themselves conservatives but are really ideological zealots.

Really? I feel it's the opposite. More and more non-religious conservatives are coming out. The right used to be way more religious than it is. That's why people like Rick Santorum never stand a chance now-a-days

Max Rockatansky
02-26-2015, 08:43 AM
Really? I feel it's the opposite. More and more non-religious conservatives are coming out. The right used to be way more religious than it is. That's why people like Rick Santorum never stand a chance now-a-days

The main issues the Republicans trot out all have a religious bias to them. I was a Republican ever since I could vote but became an Independent a few years ago due to the shift from Goldwater conservatism to religious ideology.

"There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.' "
Senator Barry Goldwater (R-Arizona) speech to Congress, Sept. 16, 1981

SoonToBe2LT
02-26-2015, 08:45 AM
The main issues the Republicans trot out all have a religious bias to them. I was a Republican ever since I could vote but became an Independent a few years ago due to the shift from Goldwater conservatism to religious ideology.

"There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerful ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus Christ, or God, or Allah, or whatever one calls this supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God's name on one's behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in 'A,' 'B,' 'C,' and 'D.' Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of 'conservatism.' "
Senator Barry Goldwater (R-Arizona) speech to Congress, Sept. 16, 1981

Check the date on that quote, and then re-read my previous statement.

PolWatch
02-26-2015, 08:46 AM
Isn't it interesting how both Goldwater & Ike predicted today's political agendas?

Max Rockatansky
02-26-2015, 10:26 AM
Check the date on that quote, and then re-read my previous statement.
I'm fully aware of both the date and the President as I was a Marine 1LT at the time.

SoonToBe2LT
02-26-2015, 10:30 AM
You missed my point. My point is that NOW, the right is much less religious than it was in 1981 which is the year you quoted. MUCH less religious. Heck, MOST young Republicans favor same sex marriage and less religion in the government.

PolWatch
02-26-2015, 10:38 AM
You missed my point. My point is that NOW, the right is much less religious than it was in 1981 which is the year you quoted. MUCH less religious. Heck, MOST young Republicans favor same sex marriage and less religion in the government.

perhaps they should find a party that agrees with that....this is from the Republican party platform:

'the union of one man and one woman must be upheld as the national standard, a goal to stand for, encourage, and promote through laws governing marriage. '
https://gop.com/platform/renewing-american-values/

del
02-26-2015, 10:39 AM
perhaps they should find a party that agrees with that....this is from the Republican party platform:

'the union of one man and one woman must be upheld as the national standard, a goal to stand for, encourage, and promote through laws governing marriage. '
https://gop.com/platform/renewing-american-values/

that's different

Max Rockatansky
02-26-2015, 10:44 AM
You missed my point. My point is that NOW, the right is much less religious than it was in 1981 which is the year you quoted. MUCH less religious. Heck, MOST young Republicans favor same sex marriage and less religion in the government.

Disagreed. The religious right gained power in the RNC in 1980 when Ronald Reagan cut a deal with Jerry Falwell and the Christian Coalition and continues to do so today. Since then, abortion, gay rights and other "religious" issues have taken the lead on the Republican platform instead of being left to individual choice where it belongs.

How can we say "a man's home is his castle" when we also advocate sticking our noses in it to see what they are doing? Below are some examples of how religion, specifically Christian religion, has come to direct the Republican party platform:

https://www.gop.com/platform/ https://cdn.gop.com/docs/2012GOPPlatform.pdf

Defending Marriage AgainstAn Activist Judiciary
A serious threat to our country’s constitutionalorder, perhaps even more dangerous than presidentialmalfeasance, is an activist judiciary, in whichsome judges usurp the powers reserved to otherbranches of government. A blatant example has beenthe court-ordered redefinition of marriage in severalStates. This is more than a matter of warring legalconcepts and ideals. It is an assault on the foundationsof our society, challenging the institution which,for thousands of years in virtually every civilization,has been entrusted with the rearing of children andthe transmission of cultural values.


A Sacred Contract: Defense of Marriage
That is why Congressional Republicans took thelead in enacting the Defense of Marriage Act, affirmingthe right of States and the federal government notto recognize same-sex relationships licensed in otherjurisdictions. The current Administration’s open defianceof this constitutional principle—in its handlingof immigration cases, in federal personnel benefits,in allowing a same-sex marriage at a military base,and in refusing to defend DOMA in the courts—makes a mockery of the President’s inaugural oath.We commend the United States House of Representativesand State Attorneys General who have defendedthese laws when they have been attacked inthe courts. We reaffirm our support for a Constitutionalamendment defining marriage as the union ofone man and one woman. We applaud the citizens ofthe majority of States which have enshrined in their constitutions the traditional concept of marriage, andwe support the campaigns underway in several otherStates to do so.


Preserving and ProtectingTraditional Marriage
The institution of marriage is the foundation ofcivil society. Its success as an institution will determineour success as a nation. It has been proven byboth experience and endless social science studiesthat traditional marriage is best for children. Childrenraised in intact married families are morelikely to attend college, are physically and emotionallyhealthier, are less likely to use drugs or alcohol,engage in crime, or get pregnant outside of marriage.The success of marriage directly impacts the economicwell-being of individuals. Furthermore, thefuture of marriage affects freedom. The lack of familyformation not only leads to more government costs,but also to more government control over the livesof its citizens in all aspects. We recognize and honorthe courageous efforts of those who bear the manyburdens of parenting alone, even as we believe thatmarriage, the union of one man and one woman mustbe upheld as the national standard, a goal to standfor, encourage, and promote through laws governingmarriage. We embrace the principle that all Americansshould be treated with respect and dignity.

These comments specifically address both abortion and religion:

ThroughObamacare, the current Administration has promotedthe notion of abortion as healthcare. We, however,affirm the dignity of women by protecting thesanctity of human life. Numerous studies haveshown that abortion endangers the health and well beingof women, and we stand firmly against it.

The most offensive instance of this war on religionhas been the current Administration’s attemptto compel faith-related institutions, as well as believingindividuals, to contravene their deeply held religious,moral, or ethical beliefs regarding healthservices, traditional marriage, or abortion

Peter1469
02-26-2015, 11:41 AM
I think the current GOP leadership treats the religious right like a disabled child. They say stuff to make them feel better, but don't really do much for them. It is the way the Dems treat blacks. Just make them happy enough to get their votes. It is all about optics.

SoonToBe2LT
02-26-2015, 12:12 PM
Disagreed. The religious right gained power in the RNC in 1980 when Ronald Reagan cut a deal with Jerry Falwell and the Christian Coalition and continues to do so today. Since then, abortion, gay rights and other "religious" issues have taken the lead on the Republican platform instead of being left to individual choice where it belongs.

How can we say "a man's home is his castle" when we also advocate sticking our noses in it to see what they are doing? Below are some examples of how religion, specifically Christian religion, has come to direct the Republican party platform:

https://www.gop.com/platform/ https://cdn.gop.com/docs/2012GOPPlatform.pdf

Defending Marriage AgainstAn Activist Judiciary
A serious threat to our country’s constitutionalorder, perhaps even more dangerous than presidentialmalfeasance, is an activist judiciary, in whichsome judges usurp the powers reserved to otherbranches of government. A blatant example has beenthe court-ordered redefinition of marriage in severalStates. This is more than a matter of warring legalconcepts and ideals. It is an assault on the foundationsof our society, challenging the institution which,for thousands of years in virtually every civilization,has been entrusted with the rearing of children andthe transmission of cultural values.


A Sacred Contract: Defense of Marriage
That is why Congressional Republicans took thelead in enacting the Defense of Marriage Act, affirmingthe right of States and the federal government notto recognize same-sex relationships licensed in otherjurisdictions. The current Administration’s open defianceof this constitutional principle—in its handlingof immigration cases, in federal personnel benefits,in allowing a same-sex marriage at a military base,and in refusing to defend DOMA in the courts—makes a mockery of the President’s inaugural oath.We commend the United States House of Representativesand State Attorneys General who have defendedthese laws when they have been attacked inthe courts. We reaffirm our support for a Constitutionalamendment defining marriage as the union ofone man and one woman. We applaud the citizens ofthe majority of States which have enshrined in their constitutions the traditional concept of marriage, andwe support the campaigns underway in several otherStates to do so.


Preserving and ProtectingTraditional Marriage
The institution of marriage is the foundation ofcivil society. Its success as an institution will determineour success as a nation. It has been proven byboth experience and endless social science studiesthat traditional marriage is best for children. Childrenraised in intact married families are morelikely to attend college, are physically and emotionallyhealthier, are less likely to use drugs or alcohol,engage in crime, or get pregnant outside of marriage.The success of marriage directly impacts the economicwell-being of individuals. Furthermore, thefuture of marriage affects freedom. The lack of familyformation not only leads to more government costs,but also to more government control over the livesof its citizens in all aspects. We recognize and honorthe courageous efforts of those who bear the manyburdens of parenting alone, even as we believe thatmarriage, the union of one man and one woman mustbe upheld as the national standard, a goal to standfor, encourage, and promote through laws governingmarriage. We embrace the principle that all Americansshould be treated with respect and dignity.

These comments specifically address both abortion and religion:

ThroughObamacare, the current Administration has promotedthe notion of abortion as healthcare. We, however,affirm the dignity of women by protecting thesanctity of human life. Numerous studies haveshown that abortion endangers the health and well beingof women, and we stand firmly against it.

The most offensive instance of this war on religionhas been the current Administration’s attemptto compel faith-related institutions, as well as believingindividuals, to contravene their deeply held religious,moral, or ethical beliefs regarding healthservices, traditional marriage, or abortion



You're not paying attention to what I'm saying. Young Republicans, the upcoming generation are FAR less religious than the Reagan/Bush generations.

To deny that is simply being naďve.

SoonToBe2LT
02-26-2015, 12:13 PM
perhaps they should find a party that agrees with that....this is from the Republican party platform:

'the union of one man and one woman must be upheld as the national standard, a goal to stand for, encourage, and promote through laws governing marriage. '
https://gop.com/platform/renewing-american-values/

They can't though. They are stuck.

There's no other money in a 3rd party. They have to associate with the religious right.

Cigar
02-26-2015, 12:16 PM
I think the current GOP leadership treats the religious right like a disabled child. They say stuff to make them feel better, but don't really do much for them. It is the way the Dems treat blacks. Just make them happy enough to get their votes. It is all about optics.

I'm betting an actually Black Person knows more about how Black are treaded than say ... someone who never been Black a day in their lives.

Just a Guess :laugh:

PolWatch
02-26-2015, 12:18 PM
I think both parties are so busy catering to the extremes of both...they are ignoring the younger & moderate voters.... the ones who would participate if they felt the party really reflected their concerns... I don't think the solution is either party. When enough voters get disgusted enough, a viable third (or more) party will emerge.

Green Arrow
02-26-2015, 12:21 PM
They can't though. They are stuck.

There's no other money in a 3rd party. They have to associate with the religious right.

They can, it just takes courage and good sense.

SoonToBe2LT
02-26-2015, 12:32 PM
They can, it just takes courage and good sense.

Maybe...but MOST of all, it takes money. No one becomes President without money and a nice superpac

PolWatch
02-26-2015, 12:35 PM
Maybe...but MOST of all, it takes money. No one becomes President without money and a nice superpac

which tells me that we need to get rid of those superpacs....all of them. Instead, what did Congress do in December? Increase the individual donations by 100%.

We have the best government that money can buy...don't you wish YOU had enough money to buy some?

Bob
02-26-2015, 12:39 PM
I think both parties are so busy catering to the extremes of both...they are ignoring the younger & moderate voters.... the ones who would participate if they felt the party really reflected their concerns... I don't think the solution is either party. When enough voters get disgusted enough, a viable third (or more) party will emerge.

Yes, Ross Perot shall rise again.

SoonToBe2LT
02-26-2015, 12:57 PM
which tells me that we need to get rid of those superpacs....all of them. Instead, what did Congress do in December? Increase the individual donations by 100%.

We have the best government that money can buy...don't you wish YOU had enough money to buy some?

Lol well said.

PolWatch
02-26-2015, 01:06 PM
Yes, Ross Perot shall rise again.

Ross Perot & Ralph Nader both proved that a third party candidate can get votes. We have had several more years of disgusted, vote for the least evil elections for the next candidate to build on.....who knows?

Green Arrow
02-26-2015, 01:08 PM
Maybe...but MOST of all, it takes money. No one becomes President without money and a nice superpac

There's a solution to that problem that nobody seems to want to follow.

SoonToBe2LT
02-26-2015, 01:16 PM
There's a solution to that problem that nobody seems to want to follow.

Because everyone loves money :-(

Bob
02-26-2015, 01:34 PM
Ross Perot & Ralph Nader both proved that a third party candidate can get votes. We have had several more years of disgusted, vote for the least evil elections for the next candidate to build on.....who knows?

We are on the same page. I used Perot because he got a lot of votes. What did he spend to lose?

I must check up trying to find his figures.

I blame the pubic.

You say, best government money can buy.

When you have long lines at the DMV, think we can change that? (DMV = department of motor vehicles)

I have spent too much of my life wondering why this country remains in such a mess. I hoped Reagan was able to fix that.

I really recently concluded that we are in this mess due to the public.

I blame us all.

Why? Well, because we want all the free stuff we can get. We want to pay zero taxes. Yes, the 47 percent pay a bit of tax, but look what for? Social Security will come back to them with enormous profit. So will Medicare. A nut would not want that free stuff. Free in that they pay little to get a lot from both.

When we are willing to be dishonest, we get dishonest politicians.

I don't believe in the third parties any more or less than the main two parties.