Mandatory Voting

[exotix]

Today



Mandatory Voting ? Obama Says It Would Be 'Transformative'

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/obama-floats-idea-mandatory-voting-us-29735579

They say the only two things that are certain in life are death and taxes. President Barack Obama wants to add one more: voting.

Obama floated the idea of mandatory voting in the U.S. while speaking to a civic group in Cleveland on Wednesday.

Asked about the corrosive influence of money in U.S. elections, Obama digressed into the related topic of voting rights and said the U.S. should be making it easier — not harder— for people to vote.

Just ask Australia, where citizens have no choice but to vote, the president said.



Obama retreats from mandatory voting push amid backlash ~ http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/mar/19/obama-retreats-push-mandatory-voting-amid-b/



President Barack Obama greets people after speaking at The City Club of Cleveland, Wednesday, March 18, 2015, in Cleveland.

Obama visited Cleveland, in the all-important presidential battleground state of Ohio, delivering a speech focusing on middle-class economics and to draw contrasts with Republicans over federal spending.


http://a.abcnews.com/images/Politics/WireAP_74f3caf2bc7b46c2a9428b6a77979af9_16x9_992.j pg

[Redrose]

The man is a fool. Apparently his reading comprehension is inadequate. He doesn't appear to know what his presidential oath meant, "protect and defend the Constitution". He should have sworn on a Koran instead of a Bible. Maybe then, he would have honored that oath.

20 more months of that fool. Won't go fast enough for me.

[Common Sense]

Oh lord...a Koran.

You amuse me middle America.

[Redrose]

Oh lord...a Koran.

You amuse me middle America.


Well, think about it, he says the Islamic morning call to prayer is the most beautiful sound in the world. Have you ever heard him say the "Ave Maria" is a beautiful hymn? No.

He may not be a practicing Muslim, he's not a practicing Christian, he's putting the screws to Israel, but it's obvious he is partial to Islam over anything else.

[exotix]

The man is a fool. Apparently his reading comprehension is inadequate. He doesn't appear to know what his presidential oath meant, "protect and defend the Constitution". He should have sworn on a Koran instead of a Bible. Maybe then, he would have honored that oath.

20 more months of that fool. Won't go fast enough for me.
Next thing you know you can just send in your ballot .. of course with proof of citizenship ... like Oregon ...

What I wouldn't give to see congressional right-wing nutcases having apoplexy-attacks as they are escorted off the capitol-hill premises upon their outing out of office ...


http://s8.tinypic.com/f0sr4i_th.jpg

[Captain Obvious]

Duplicate thread.

Fascism rocks.

[Bob]

Well, think about it, he says the Islamic morning call to prayer is the most beautiful sound in the world. Have you ever heard him say the "Ave Maria" is a beautiful hymn? No.

He may not be a practicing Muslim, he's not a practicing Christian, he's putting the screws to Israel, but it's obvious he is partial to Islam over anything else.

The Christian ?????????????? church he once attended is famous for yelling "God damn America"

Just what we needed a president that did not think that was wrong.

[Mac-7]

Obumer worships himself.

And maybe Karl Marx.

[exotix]

Oh lord...a Koran.

You amuse me middle America.
She forgot Bush is the only preisdent to install the Koran in the Whitehouse Library ...

[Mac-7]

Next thing you know you can just send in your ballot .. of course with proof of citizenship ... like Oregon ...

What I wouldn't give to see congressional right-wing nutcases having apoplexy-attacks as they are escorted off the capitol-hill premises upon their outing out of office ...


http://s8.tinypic.com/f0sr4i_th.jpg

If all the repubs are voted out of office obama voters will eventually starve.

[Redrose]

Next thing you know you can just send in your ballot .. of course with proof of citizenship ... like Oregon ...

What I wouldn't give to see congressional right-wing nutcases having apoplexy-attacks as they are escorted off the capitol-hill premises upon their outing out of office ...


http://s8.tinypic.com/f0sr4i_th.jpg


Be careful what you wish for. Many of the far left tenets and agendas they support, if allowed to get established here in America, frown on gay rights.
Openly gay people in Russia are put in prison.

It's bizarre, many of those supporting the far left agenda, and condemning the right and the GOP, and enjoying the blessed freedoms of this great land, apparently fail to realize they are jeopardizing their own freedoms and rights.

If that's what you want, knock yourself out.

[exotix]

If all the repubs are voted out of office obama voters will eventually starve.
Whoever is President of the U.S. ... well, America has just become a one-party Democracy ... just a fact.

[Mac-7]

Whoever is President of the U.S. ... well, America has just become a one-party Democracy ... just a fact.

One party cannot efficiently mange a country.

Or at least not a modern free country.

Uganda or Rhodesia or any one party state can muddle along for a while but must eventually fail.

[Peter1469]

Notice: Duplicate threads merged

[Chris]

And yet as a non-voter I get from many Republicans and Democrats alike the nonsense I cannot participate in politics if I don't vote. Basically the same thing as what Obama is arguing with mandatory voting.

[exotix]

And yet as a non-voter I get from many Republicans and Democrats alike the nonsense I cannot participate in politics if I don't vote. Basically the same thing as what Obama is arguing with mandatory voting.
I wonder why the SCOTUS didn't argue for mandatory-voting to Citizens United.

[Chris]

I wonder why the SCOTUS didn't argue for mandatory-voting to Citizens United.

You really think that would solve the corrupt collusion of government and business?

You still believe in Obama, don't you.

[Crepitus]

I honestly have no problem with the idea. At that point our representative democracy would actually be representative.

[exotix]

You really think that would solve the corrupt collusion of government and business?

You still believe in Obama, don't you.
Let's put it this way ... I'm calling for the immediate abolish of the 22nd Amendment as we go into 2016.

[Captain Obvious]

I honestly have no problem with the idea. At that point our representative democracy would actually be representative.

Forced civic duty, eh?

Then how about mandatory jury service?

[Chris]

I honestly have no problem with the idea. At that point our representative democracy would actually be representative.

But no longer a democracy that respect individual liberty.

[Chris]

Forced civic duty, eh?

Then how about mandatory jury service?



Or mandatory happy camps that Hillary talks about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnqTCah_03g

[exotix]

Or mandatory happy camps that Hillary talks about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnqTCah_03g
I have to start a thread about this .. LOL

[Ransom]

I honestly have no problem with the idea. At that point our representative democracy would actually be representative.

Let's see if Crepitus voted.... yep, there's the vote, there's who Citizen Crepitus voted for, you can check that name off the list?

[Chris]

The author of Should the US government force citizens to vote? looks at Australia where voting is mandatory and not voting can lead to a fine and criminal charges. She interviews: "Allen adds, "Two questions to answer: If you're for mandatory voting, does this mean you get back a bunch of blank ballots? 'There. I voted.' Also, how does this affect our right to free speech, which includes the right not to speak. Don't we, as Americans have the right to remain silent?""


So put NOTA on the ballot and I'll vote.


That article ends" ""The old woman in New Hampshire shocks a reporter by says she doesn't vote," Allen recalls. "So the TV reporter asked her why she doesn't vote. The old woman said, 'It only encourages them.' ""


She probably read O'Rourke's

http://i.snag.gy/BITht.jpg

[Bob]

Chris

One of these times you will tell me if you read Bills book or not????????

Which reader has read Bill's book yet?

[Chris]

Not yet. There's a thread recently about 2015 reading list. Heck, I'm still trying to finish 2012's.

[PolWatch]

Not yet. There's a thread recently about 2015 reading list. Heck, I'm still trying to finish 2012's.

move the James Lee Burke to the front of the list....everyone needs a little escapism!

[Chris]

No one seems to want to discuss the topic.

Mandatory Voting Is a Terrible—And Insulting—Idea (http://reason.com/blog/2015/03/19/mandatory-voting-is-a-terribleand-insult)


..."It would be transformative if everybody voted," he said. "That would counter money more than anything."

No, it wouldn't, not really. Well, first of all, let's backtrack to the idea. Mandatory voting is a violation of our civil rights, just as denying a citizen a right to vote is a violation. Casting a vote is speech. It is showing support or opposition to a candidate or proposal. Making voting mandatory means voting is no longer a right. It's an obligation. It's forced speech....

Second, when it comes to campaigning, mandatory voting would indeed probably make the race cheaper—but only for incumbents and entrenched politicians. Institutional inertia benefits incumbents tremendously, and they're rarely tossed out of office....

Third, Australia's parliamentary system is completely different from America's. They have a proportional voting system, not a "winner takes all" system. Their voting process is very complicated, with voters ranking candidates by preference. Australia has more than two political parties with representation in its parliament, and the voting system sometimes results in the creation of ruling coalitions (right now it's a group of center-right political parties). Comparing America's voting system to Australia's is as silly as comparing it to North Korea's, but for different reasons.

...Obama would have us believe that mandatory voting somehow gives more power to the citizenry, but in fact, it treats the citizenry as the servants of the political parties. Recall last fall when operatives for political parties sent out sinister messages to voters warning them that whether they voted or not was a public record and that they would be "interested to hear" why somebody might not have voted. As I said at the time, these methods absolve the political parties of having to find better candidates that would actually inspire people to go to the polls. Imagine what sort of insipid, lackluster candidates we'll get in mandatory elections and what they'll say or do or promise to try to get the support of people who currently do not feel enough interest to even bother.

...And finally, for obvious reasons, Obama fails to engage in why special interests spend so much money on elections in the first place: The federal government is very, very powerful, and it has grown in size and scope under him. The federal government has its hooks in every single thing we do as citizens and in every single thing every business does as well. Election turnouts aren't going to change this. It might even heighten it if candidates end up promising all sorts of new programs to appeal to voters who would have otherwise not even bothered under the current system. The Obama administration and its agencies' willingness to regulate just about anything under the sun fosters an environment where not only does it pay off for labor and corporate interests to spend money to influence incomes, sometimes it's—well—mandatory.

[Chris]

move the James Lee Burke to the front of the list....everyone needs a little escapism!

Started reading it. At any given time I'm reading at least a dozen books, a few pages here, a few there, most get finished, but it might take years--somehow I can remember what I read and pick up where I left off, others engage me and get read in a short time.

He's in hospital, just got done talking to some girl--unless she was just his imagination--and starts talking to his partner who's in trouble.

[donttread]

Yeah, force them into freedom. What could possibly go wrong with that? Oh yeah, everyfuckingthing

[Chris]

Yeah, force them into freedom. What could possibly go wrong with that? Oh yeah, everyfuckingthing

That's where dictatorships begin, by redefining the meanings of everything such that forced freedom somehow makes sense to the people.

[Common Sense]

How about just a sizable tax rebate for voting?

[Chris]

How about just a sizable tax rebate for voting?

Paying people to vote sounds like bribery.

[Adelaide]

Mandatory voting removes the choice - democracy is about choice, at least to me. While I believe all people should want to exercise their truly glorious ability to cast a vote, I don't believe making it mandatory is correct. Electing not to vote is just as much a decision as deciding to cast a ballot. In some cases, it's due to legitimately not wanting to vote for who the candidates are, sometimes it's due to time constraints, sometimes it's just pure laziness. But it's a choice; the first choice you make in terms of voting - are you actually going to exercise your right?

[texan]

If there is any question that Obama doesn't really grasp the constitution re-read these comments, LOL!

I also think it is pretty funny that the democrats think if everyone voted they would vote democrat, another LOL!

They never cease to make me laugh.

[Polecat]

The best thing about a forced vote is you don't even decide who to vote for. It worked for the Soviet Union.

[Mini Me]

I have to start a thread about this .. LOL

That's what all the 700 FEMA "happy camps" are about. Electric Kool, Prozac And and pot brownies for everyone who is depressed about our glorious nation. Insane asylums with a happy face! Pay no mind to the 1000's of caskets stacked up, those are only for terrorists who resist!

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:blob7:

[Crepitus]

Forced civic duty, eh?

Then how about mandatory jury service?
If you're registered to vote here in KS you're in the jury pool, so it kinda goes without saying.

[PolWatch]

Paying people to vote sounds like bribery.

or lobbying....

[Crepitus]

But no longer a democracy that respect individual liberty.
Sometimes privileges come with responsibilities. If you live in our great nation why shouldn't you vote?

[Crepitus]

After reading the whole thread I've concluded that the people who think it's a bad idea (conservatives by and large) are afraid if everyone voted they would lose.

[Chris]

After reading the whole thread I've concluded that the people who think it's a bad idea (conservatives by and large) are afraid if everyone voted they would lose.

Baloney. Nice assertion but absolutely no basis for it.

[Chris]

Sometimes privileges come with responsibilities. If you live in our great nation why shouldn't you vote?


Because I don't support the political system. If more people chose not to vote, it would collapse as it could not claim support.

http://i.snag.gy/cPFja.jpg

[Chris]

Compulsory voting violates civil liberties — The government and politicians serve the people, not the other way around. Citizens should not be obligated, by force of law and against their will, to participate in a electoral system. Padraic McGuinness makes a powerful point about how mandatory voting is violation of liberty:



One of the worst features of totalitarian or oppressive regimes is that it is necessary to take an interest in politics under them, either as a result of coercion into official demonstrations and so on or in order to contest their power. Surely it is a fundamental human right to be left alone, to be allowed to live one’s own life within the law but otherwise unmolested, and to take no interest in policies at all except by choice. Compulsory voting, by imposing participation in the election of politicians and governments, infringes the right to be apolitical.


Compulsory voting doesn’t change political ignorance — Just as you can force a horse to water but can’t make him drink, you can force a voter to the polls but can’t make him think. Many people choose not to vote because they are disengaged from or apathetic about politics. There is no evidence that requiring people to vote provides sufficient incentive for them to gain the information necessary to cast an informed ballot. The decision not to vote is therefore a rational one for those who have not put in the time or effort to discern which electoral choice is best for them or their country.

From 3 Reasons to Oppose Mandatory Voting (http://blog.acton.org/archives/76834-3-reasons-to-oppose-mandatory-voting.html#more-76834)

[donttread]

After reading the whole thread I've concluded that the people who think it's a bad idea (conservatives by and large) are afraid if everyone voted they would lose.

It's a bad idea because it goes against everything we stand for

[Crepitus]

Baloney. Nice assertion but absolutely no basis for it.
Really? Read back over the thread and look who is strongly against it. In think it speaks for itself, especially in light of all the voter suppression laws they have been pushing for.

[Crepitus]

Because I don't support the political system. If more people chose not to vote, it would collapse as it could not claim support.

http://i.snag.gy/cPFja.jpg
The fewer people voting the more power is concentrated in the already powerful.and the less likely we are to see any change in the status quo.

[Crepitus]

It's a bad idea because it goes against everything we stand for
Losing goes against a anything anyone stands for when it happens to them.

[gamewell45]

The man is a fool. Apparently his reading comprehension is inadequate. He doesn't appear to know what his presidential oath meant, "protect and defend the Constitution". He should have sworn on a Koran instead of a Bible. Maybe then, he would have honored that oath.

20 more months of that fool. Won't go fast enough for me.

Right, then you'll have another fool in office to complain about for 4 more years. :)

[Chris]

Really? Read back over the thread and look who is strongly against it. In think it speaks for itself, especially in light of all the voter suppression laws they have been pushing for.

Yea, right, I tend to ignore the partisan crapola people try to twist everything into, what I think is baloney is "I've concluded that the people who think it's a bad idea ... are afraid if everyone voted they would lose."

[Chris]

The fewer people voting the more power is concentrated in the already powerful.and the less likely we are to see any change in the status quo.

Well, you'll have to explain that one, how less voters results in greater government power. Connect the dots.

The more people voting the stronger the government because voting only to supports and sanctions the system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jnf9GILjFM

[Crepitus]

Yea, right, I tend to ignore the partisan crapola people try to twist everything into, what I think is baloney is "I've concluded that the people who think it's a bad idea ... are afraid if everyone voted they would lose."
You are just as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine.

[Crepitus]

Well, you'll have to explain that one, how less voters results in greater government power. Connect the dots.

The more people voting the stronger the government because voting only to supports and sanctions the system.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Jnf9GILjFM
Even if everyone else quits voting the politicians will just vote for themselves. You not voting just makes it easier for them.
So are you saying you don't vote?

[Chris]

Even if everyone else quits voting the politicians will just vote for themselves. You not voting just makes it easier for them.
So are you saying you don't vote?

The system would collapse without the faux support and sanctioning it receives from voting. You're not thinking things through. A government elected by less than 1% of the population and owned by less than 1% could not survive.

No, I do not vote. It's a sham.

[Crepitus]

The system would collapse without the faux support and sanctioning it receives from voting. You're not thinking things through. A government elected by less than 1% of the population and owned by less than 1% could not survive.

No, I do not vote. It's a sham.If you knowingly refuse to vote then IMHO you have just lost all relevancy. If you are refusing to participate your opinion makes no differences and is just worthless noise because you aren't doing anything to express it but bitching on the internet.

[Chris]

If you knowingly refuse to vote then IMHO you have just lost all relevancy. If you are refusing to participate your opinion makes no differences and is just worthless noise because you aren't doing anything to express it but bitching on the internet.

You sound now like a clone of mac's.

Where do you get the idea the only way to participate politically is by voting?

Post some substance, please.

[MisterVeritis]

Whoever is President of the U.S. ... well, America has just become a one-party Democracy ... just a fact.
Imagine that, the US has become a one-party dictatorship, just like the former Soviet Union.

[MisterVeritis]

I honestly have no problem with the idea. At that point our representative democracy would actually be representative.
It does follow the pattern. Most dictatorships have mandatory voting.

[MisterVeritis]

Let's put it this way ... I'm calling for the immediate abolish of the 22nd Amendment as we go into 2016.
So can we count on your support for an Article V Convention of States to propose amendments?

[Crepitus]

You sound now like a clone of mac's.

Where do you get the idea the only way to participate politically is by voting?

Post some substance, please.
What substance? If you aren't voting all you are doing is generating hot air. What else can you do that matters?

BTW, Mac and I are pretty much polar opposites.

[Crepitus]

It does follow the pattern. Most dictatorships have mandatory voting.:rollseyes::rollseyes::rollseyes:

[Chris]

What substance? If you aren't voting all you are doing is generating hot air. What else can you do that matters?

BTW, Mac and I are pretty much polar opposites.

Some substance to your opinion.

Mac and you might be polar opposites but you defend your opinions the same, with nothing at all. And he too when he can't substantiate an opinion tries to shift the burden.

Let's try this again: Where do you get the idea the only way to participate politically is by voting?

[Common]

Some substance to your opinion.

Mac and you might be polar opposites but you defend your opinions the same, with nothing at all. And he too when he can't substantiate an opinion tries to shift the burden.

Let's try this again: Where do you get the idea the only way to participate politically is by voting?

You an participate by making donations and doing ground work. You can protest and you have freedom of speech. The question is does that really change anything politically as voting does

[Crepitus]

Some substance to your opinion.

Mac and you might be polar opposites but you defend your opinions the same, with nothing at all. And he too when he can't substantiate an opinion tries to shift the burden.

Let's try this again: Where do you get the idea the only way to participate politically is by voting?
You are asking me to prove a negative. Why don't you show me how you are participating in this nations political process without voting.

[Crepitus]

You an participate by making donations and doing ground work. You can protest and you have freedom of speech. The question is does that really change anything politically as voting does
IMHO no, none of that changes anything. If you're not going to pick a candidate to vote for how do you decide zwho to donate to? As far as "groundwork". Are you gonna go door to door and say " vote for this guy, I'm not."?

[Common]

IMHO no, none of that changes anything. If you're not going to pick a candidate to vote for how do you decide zwho to donate to? As far as "groundwork". Are you gonna go door to door and say " vote for this guy, I'm not."?

Well ground work is signs and working phones, but I do agree with youi

[Chris]

You an participate by making donations and doing ground work. You can protest and you have freedom of speech. The question is does that really change anything politically as voting does

It changes minds. Voting keeps things the same as it supports and sanctions a corrupt system.

[Chris]

You are asking me to prove a negative. Why don't you show me how you are participating in this nations political process without voting.

You made a claim. If there's no reasoning behind then just say so.

[Bob]

You an participate by making donations and doing ground work. You can protest and you have freedom of speech. The question is does that really change anything politically as voting does

I always vote. And for my trouble I got Obama and his entire team. If did me not one bit of good to vote.

[Chris]

IMHO no, none of that changes anything. If you're not going to pick a candidate to vote for how do you decide zwho to donate to? As far as "groundwork". Are you gonna go door to door and say " vote for this guy, I'm not."?

I would vote for an anarchist.

I would vote for NOTA.

Until then I'll argue with people about politics.

[PolWatch]

I've always voted. Now, I'm not so sure about voting in a national election again. I know I will vote in the local races but my vote doesn't count or matter in a national election. I can guarantee who Alabama will vote for in 2016....it doesn't matter if the candidate is Alfred E. Newman...if he is the repub candidate, Alabama will vote for him.

[Bob]

I've always voted. Now, I'm not so sure about voting in a national election again. I know I will vote in the local races but my vote doesn't count or matter in a national election. I can guarantee who Alabama will vote for in 2016....it doesn't matter if the candidate is Alfred E. Newman...if he is the repub candidate, Alabama will vote for him.

Thank you Alabama. That helps balance out CA where we only get Democrats.

[PolWatch]

see? I told you that Alabama was your true spiritual home.

[Bob]

I would vote for an anarchist.

I would vote for NOTA.

Until then I'll argue with people about politics.

I feel like you feel. My only reason to vote for republicans is to prevent more Democrats from winning. In Ca, this does me zip bit of good. It amounts to banging my head against the wall since I can't stop Democrats ever. But I keep hoping

To those blaming republicans for what they do, look at the voters voting for Democrats. I totally reject democrats and you see how much good that does me. Not one bit. Howver the way to beat Democrarts is not to vote for them. Voting for any other guy helps keep democrats. Sooner or later the public will wake up to the damage done by Democrats and at last will vote for honesty.

[Bob]

Since this country lasted almost to 1830 and the citizens got by without voting for president, and since the founders established the electoral college to relieve the citizens of the burden of picking the CEO of USA, I propose a return to that virgin system where we did not need to be involved in this magical CEO that always promises he will solve all of our problems.

I just want no part of the divisiveness that shows up when citizens vote for the top dog. He wears his pants our way and of course has carved out imminence privilege for himself. But I believe republicans will scale back the mighty emperor and he won't last much longer.

[Bob]

see? I told you that Alabama was your true spiritual home.

And yours since you live there.

[Crepitus]

Well ground work is signs and working phones, but I do agree with youi
Door to door or signs and phones makes no difference. Hypocritical to try to get votes for a candidate you don't vote for.

[Crepitus]

You made a claim. If there's no reasoning behind then just say so.
Cop out. I can't prove a negative. You tell me how you are participating or admit you are not.

[Crepitus]

I would vote for an anarchist.

I would vote for NOTA.

Until then I'll argue with people about politics.
So you don't participate, you just bitch to those of us who do. You and your opinions are irrelevant.

[Chris]

So you don't participate, you just bitch to those of us who do. You and your opinions are irrelevant.

Like mac, unable to argue it, you merely repeat your opinion.

[Chris]

Cop out. I can't prove a negative. You tell me how you are participating or admit you are not.

You made the claim, crep, you need to back of up. Obviously you can't .

[Crepitus]

Like mac, unable to argue it, you merely repeat your opinion.
It's not an opinion, its a fact. You said yourself you don't vote. You certainly aren't changing anything on various political websites. If you won't make an attempt then you're just moving air. Your convictions have no weight, your beliefs are unsupported by actions, you are irrelevant.

[Chris]

It's not an opinion, its a fact. You said yourself you don't vote. You certainly aren't changing anything on various political websites. If you won't make an attempt then you're just moving air. Your convictions have no weight, your beliefs are unsupported by actions, you are irrelevant.

LOL, your opinions are facts. Words mean things, crepitus, and not just what you want them to mean. Go talk to Alice and the Mad Hatter!



(A) You said yourself you don't vote. (B) You certainly aren't changing anything on various political websites. If you won't make an attempt then you're just moving air. Your convictions have no weight, your beliefs are unsupported by actions, you are irrelevant.

All of (B) is non sequitur to (A). (B) merely once again repeats your opinion. You were asked to substantiate that opinion with a reasonable argument, not logical fallacies.


Keep flailing away.

[Crepitus]

LOL, your opinions are facts. Words mean things, crepitus, and not just what you want them to mean. Go talk to Alice and the Mad Hatter!

There's nothing false about it. If you aren't willing to at least try to change things then your opinions are meaningless.


All of (B) is non sequitur to (A). (B) merely once again repeats your opinion. You were asked to substantiate that opinion with a reasonable argument, not logical fallacies.


Keep flailing away.

[Chris]

There's nothing false about it. If you aren't willing to at least try to change things then your opinions are meaningless.

There's nothing true about it. If there were you would argue it.

I am participating in politics simply by arguing with you.

[Chris]

Read this while listening to Paul Simon's 50 Ways to Leave Leave Your Lover: Fifty Ways To Get Political (http://www.context.org/iclib/ic30/editors/).

The first way is to vote. The second way is to not vote. OMG!!! How can people be so myopic as to opine the only way to participate in politics is to vote?!?!

[Bob]

So you don't participate, you just bitch to those of us who do. You and your opinions are irrelevant.

If you count using the census, voters ... you learn fast that a huge number of people do not vote at all.

I have a problem using voting as a way to decide if you should receive any citizenship benefits from Government.

I question the saying you must first vote.

I don't see not voting as a message. I see it as not voting. A lot are not informed. A lot simply don't care.

[Crepitus]

If you count using the census, voters ... you learn fast that a huge number of people do not vote at all.

I have a problem using voting as a way to decide if you should receive any citizenship benefits from Government.

I question the saying you must first vote.

I don't see not voting as a message. I see it as not voting. A lot are not informed. A lot simply don't care.
All I'm saying is if you don't excersise your right to vote then you don't have any room to bitch when it doesn't go your way. You had an opportunity to have your say and passed it up.

[Guerilla]

It's not an opinion, its a fact. You said yourself you don't vote. You certainly aren't changing anything on various political websites. If you won't make an attempt then you're just moving air. Your convictions have no weight, your beliefs are unsupported by actions, you are irrelevant.

Why do you feel that your opinion should be binding for other individuals? That's essentially what your saying when you cast a vote that is supposed to choose a plan for the entire nation.

[Chris]

All I'm saying is if you don't excersise your right to vote then you don't have any room to bitch when it doesn't go your way. You had an opportunity to have your say and passed it up.

It's not a right, there is absolutely no obligation to vote. It's a privilege like driving.

Voting supports and sanctions the political system so it's you who has no business bitching.

I have my say every day.

[Ransom]

It's not an opinion, its a fact. You said yourself you don't vote. You certainly aren't changing anything on various political websites. If you won't make an attempt then you're just moving air. Your convictions have no weight, your beliefs are unsupported by actions, you are irrelevant.

He's not irrelevant, who would hold the fence post still while Chris voted? Gotta get off the fence to vote. Not for everyone.

[Crepitus]

Why do you feel that your opinion should be binding for other individuals? That's essentially what your saying when you cast a vote that is supposed to choose a plan for the entire nation.
One person, one vote. If you don't like the way things are going vote the other way. It isn't *my* vote that's binding, it's the majorities, of which I may or may not be a part. But I certainty won't be a part of it if I don't vote.

[Crepitus]

It's not a right, there is absolutely no obligation to vote. It's a privilege like driving.

Voting supports and sanctions the political system so it's you who has no business bitching.

I have my say every day.
But not in any way that matters. Like I said before, you're just moving air.

[Bob]

All I'm saying is if you don't excersise your right to vote then you don't have any room to bitch when it doesn't go your way. You had an opportunity to have your say and passed it up.

Actually, I know much more about the way to send the Feds my message than voting.

There are a good number of ways to get my message out and not vote.

[Chris]

But not in any way that matters. Like I said before, you're just moving air.

Not the way it seems to matter to you personally. So, speaking of moving air? You haven't even done that, like mac you merely repeat your opinion ad nauseum.

[Chris]

One person, one vote. If you don't like the way things are going vote the other way. It isn't *my* vote that's binding, it's the majorities, of which I may or may not be a part. But I certainty won't be a part of it if I don't vote.


So the Constitution binds us to majoritarian government? lol

[Crepitus]

Actually, I know much more about the way to send the Feds my message than voting.

There are a good number of ways to get my message out and not vote.
And do you vote?

[Mister D]

But not in any way that matters. Like I said before, you're just moving air.

Your vote doesn't matter.

[Chris]

To me this is part of the deceptive lure of democracy, that your votes counts, that even you can become President!

[Bob]

And do you vote?

Yes but I can't explain why.

[Mister D]

To me this is part of the deceptive lure of democracy, that your votes counts, that even you can become President!

It's frankly amazing to me that anyone could believe that their exercise of an infinitesimal fraction of political power is meaningful.

[Crepitus]

So the Constitution binds us to majoritarian government? lol
No, a representative democracy. One of the reasons it's so important to vote if you want a say. You only get to choose your representative, and not vote directly on most issues.

[Crepitus]

Yes but I can't explain why.
Then you are participating at least.

[Bob]

Then you are participating at least.

Well, poorly. I look at results, not attempts.

[Crepitus]

Well, poorly. I look at results, not attempts.
Well you can't win them all, and if you voted then you did your part.

[Bob]

Well you can't win them all, and if you voted then you did your part.

In CA, back a republican and you lose. Every single time in my area. Then this state Governor wants a super train. What the hell for? I voted for proposition 78 and won that one.

[Crepitus]

In CA, back a republican and you lose. Every single time in my area. Then this state Governor wants a super train. What the hell for? I voted for proposition 78 and won that one.
I'm not from CA, but I don't see the point of the super train either.

I'm in Kansas, the same thing happens every time I vote democratic.

[Chris]

No, a representative democracy. One of the reasons it's so important to vote if you want a say. You only get to choose your representative, and not vote directly on most issues.

You sound awfully mixed up about the political system we have when you bounce between majoritarian and representational democracy when constitutionally it's neither.

Just pushing air me thinks.

[Chris]

It's frankly amazing to me that anyone could believe that their exercise of an infinitesimal fraction of political power is meaningful.

Your power, what there is of it, comes not from coting but free speech and free association.

The ignorance of the common voter, while rational, offers no power whatsoever.

[CaveDog]

In some cases I can't follow my conscience and vote for the "lesser of two evils" because the candidates may each hold positions which I strongly object to. My vote would then endorse something I cannot in good conscience endorse. If there's no candidate on the ballot that I feel I can endorse then all I can do is go there and submit a blank ballot. Either my right of conscience is violated or my time is wasted in that case.

[Captain Obvious]

In some cases I can't follow my conscience and vote for the "lesser of two evils" because the candidates may each hold positions which I strongly object to. My vote would then endorse something I cannot in good conscience endorse. If there's no candidate on the ballot that I feel I can endorse then all I can do is go there and submit a blank ballot. Either my right of conscience is violated or my time is wasted in that case.

Vote third party, or don't vote.

[Captain Obvious]

WHAT MAKES PEOPLE VOTE REPUBLICAN?

https://edge.org/conversation/what-makes-vote-republican

Institutionalism

[Ransom]

In some cases I can't follow my conscience and vote for the "lesser of two evils" because the candidates may each hold positions which I strongly object to. My vote would then endorse something I cannot in good conscience endorse. If there's no candidate on the ballot that I feel I can endorse then all I can do is go there and submit a blank ballot. Either my right of conscience is violated or my time is wasted in that case.

Well then hand your blank ballot in next time you'd like to b!tch about something. Don't vote, we don't want to hear your voice then on any public policy.

We have many here who take their freedoms for granted. Sad. My guess is it's party the public school education system. Where did you go to school, Dog?

[Chris]

Well then hand your blank ballot in next time you'd like to b!tch about something. Don't vote, we don't want to hear your voice then on any public policy.

We have many here who take their freedoms for granted. Sad. My guess is it's party the public school education system. Where did you go to school, Dog?

Another crepitus^^^

And just as shallow in opinion.

[Ransom]

Another crepitus^^^

And just as shallow in opinion.

But...I did vote. Made a decision, locked and loaded, and voted.

Got my little I voted sticker and everything, here lean down from that fence post and I'll hand it to you so you can see it....little American flag in the background.....isn't that cool?

Gotta go, make it a great Monday, Fence Sitter. Don't make a decision, don't choose a side....whatever you do. Helps us more if you just sit there...like you've been doing. B!tching.

[Chris]

But...I did vote. Made a decision, locked and loaded, and voted.

Got my little I voted sticker and everything, here lean down from that fence post and I'll hand it to you so you can see it....little American flag in the background.....isn't that cool?

Gotta go, make it a great Monday, Fence Sitter. Don't make a decision, don't choose a side....whatever you do. Helps us more if you just sit there...like you've been doing. B!tching.


And I made a choice not to vote.

My criticism, which you deflect with other nonsense, is your opinion on voting is a shallow one. There's no thought behind it, it's you feel something but can't articulate it.

[Common]

Another crepitus^^^

And just as shallow in opinion.

Yes and we should appreciate your very deep intellectual responses to all posts and threads that many include veiled insults.

[Chris]

Yes and we should appreciate your very deep intellectual responses to all posts and threads that many include veiled insults.

Sorry, but there are basically two kinds of opinion. One based on something vague the person cannot fathom or articulate, and those based on some reason or at least feeling the person can understand well enough to express it. It really doesn't matter the explanation given, whether factual, logical, emotional, personal, whathaveyou, there's really nothing very intellectual about it, all that matters is whether you can explain why you have an opinion. Moreover, it's not necessary to have or even give a reason why you hold an opinion. But it's good not to fake it.

So try this one, common, why do you feel my post veiled an insult?

[Redrose]

In some cases I can't follow my conscience and vote for the "lesser of two evils" because the candidates may each hold positions which I strongly object to. My vote would then endorse something I cannot in good conscience endorse. If there's no candidate on the ballot that I feel I can endorse then all I can do is go there and submit a blank ballot. Either my right of conscience is violated or my time is wasted in that case.


That is the point, it's a violation of our personal rights. We are losing our right to choose.....choose to vote, choose not to vote, etc. Obama doesn't care about our rights, he wants to "force" us to cast a ballot, force us to buy insurance, force us to give up our guns, force us to respect Islam, etc. The Bill of Rights, Constitution mean nothing to him. He wants to enforce "his" will on all of us.

He is banking on the liberal voting base overflowing, and holding the majority and thereby assuring a liberal rule.....probably forever. The more our civil rights are chipped away, the farther left our government will go. It will reach a point where we no longer have any personal rights and are totally governed by an oppressive government.

[CaveDog]

Well then hand your blank ballot in next time you'd like to b!tch about something. Don't vote, we don't want to hear your voice then on any public policy.

We have many here who take their freedoms for granted. Sad. My guess is it's party the public school education system. Where did you go to school, Dog?

Clearly you failed to grasp my point. I won't vote for a candidate who holds a position I cannot endorse. Voting for them anyway implies that I do and legitimizes something I may strongly oppose. It's not about apathy , it's about conscience, yet you parrot that overused "if you don't vote, don't complain" line when it's totally out of context. I am supposed to vote for a candidate who says they'll do something I cannot approve of or shut up? Not happening.