America is a Clusterfuck

[Guerilla]

The sooner we realize and embrace that, the sooner we can start fixing things.

Before I go further, thoughts?

[Crepitus]

America is just fine. The only reason you and others think it is a mess is the right wing propaganda machine has been going non stop ever since a black man ended up in the White House.

[Mr. Right]

Crepitus, stop bogarting the crack pipe.

[Guerilla]

America is just fine. The only reason you and others think it is a mess is the right wing propaganda machine has been going non stop ever since a black man ended up in the White House.

Obamas dad was a black guy. Obamas just another rich white guy, whos from Hawaii. He shares no history with black america.

Anyway, it's a mess. America is a very diverse place, with a lot of opinions, and different regional cultures. As things become more centralized, and different groups try to conform the nation, this clusterfuck is becoming more prevalent.

Obama is not the only president that has centralized authority and abused power. But just because other presidents have fucked up doesn't mean we look the other way to Obama just because he's a 'black guy'.

[Green Arrow]

Pretty much what you said.

[Mister D]

@Crepitus (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=1345), stop bogarting the crack pipe.

Some folks have only a very limited set of responses. That Guerilla is not a Republican makes no difference. Any negativity expressed about America while a Democrat is in the WH indicates that that the poster listens to Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and is probably a racist. I'm not trying to be funny. I'm quite serious. On the other side, any expression of community and solidarity is likened to socialism or communism.

[Crepitus]

Call me whatever you want, but America is not a "cluster fuck". It is nothing but a skewed perception driven by media, mostly of the right wing persuasion.

[Chris]

The sooner we realize and embrace that, the sooner we can start fixing things.

Before I go further, thoughts?



I don't think it's fixable. It simply needs to be abandoned.

[Mister D]

Call me whatever you want, but America is not a "cluster $#@!". It is nothing but a skewed perception driven by media, mostly of the right wing persuasion.

I wasn't calling you anything. I simply described your thinking. Try to expand your horizons a bit. The forum would be a lot more interesting if you all you would.

[Mister D]

I don't think it's fixable. It simply needs to be abandoned.

I'm inclined to agree and I also think it will happen gradually with much less effect on our everyday existence than we might imagine.

[Chris]

Call me whatever you want, but America is not a "cluster fuck". It is nothing but a skewed perception driven by media, mostly of the right wing persuasion.

The rightwing, and by that I presume you really mean Republicans based upon your partisanship, is as clusterfucked as the leftwing, er, Democrats. The Donkephant needs to be tossed out on it's collective keister.

[Crepitus]

I wasn't calling you anything. I simply described your thinking. Try to expand your horizons a bit. The forum would be a lot more interesting if you all you would.
I think it is not I who needs to widen my perceptions. You people need to go outside and look around instead of listening to the biased reports from the various noise machines. The world isn't ending, our country's not a cluster fuck, in fact things are actually looking up. But the better things look, the harder the noise machines push to make them look the opposite. Use your own eyes and ears. Get your info first hand for a change.

[Chris]

I'm inclined to agree and I also think it will happen gradually with much less effect on our everyday existence than we might imagine.

Slow is better in order to avoid replacing it with another similar system of government, as has been the case throughout history.

The Iroquois are said to have looked 7 generations ahead to make decisions of this magnitude.

[Crepitus]

The rightwing, and by that I presume you really mean Republicans based upon your partisanship, is as clusterfucked as the leftwing, er, Democrats. The Donkephant needs to be tossed out on it's collective keister.
Your opinion is irrelevant because you don't participate.

[Guerilla]

Some folks have only a very limited set of responses. That Guerilla is not a Republican makes no difference. Any negativity expressed about America while a Democrat is in the WH indicates that that the poster listens to Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, and is probably a racist. I'm not trying to be funny. I'm quite serious. On the other side, any expression of community and solidarity is likened to socialism or communism.

Yes, this partisanship and polarization, I think, comes from people being frustrated with the politics. No one feels like they have a say, and really they don't so they overcompensate. Some people get so frustrated with the whole mess, that they don't even want to vote anymore, which is another major problem. If people felt like their opinion contributed, then they would express it more. But the way I see it, the only place their opinion could matter or have a positive impact is within their own communities, and with those they choose to associate with.

[Mister D]

I think it is not I who needs to widen my perceptions. You people need to go outside and look around instead of listening to the biased reports from the various noise machines. The world isn't ending, our country's not a cluster $#@!, in fact things are actually looking up. But the better things look, the harder the noise machines push to make them look the opposite. Use your own eyes and ears. Get your info first hand for a change.

None of us listen to "the noise machines". Seriously, you really need to get out of that partisan box.

[Guerilla]

Call me whatever you want, but America is not a "cluster fuck". It is nothing but a skewed perception driven by media, mostly of the right wing persuasion.

I mean clusterfuck in the sense that it is many people with differing opinions and cultures trying to come to a consensus. You end up with a clusterfuck.

Please explain to me how it isn't.

[Mister D]

Yes, this partisanship and polarization, I think, comes from people being frustrated with the politics. No one feels like they have a say, and really they don't so they overcompensate. Some people get so frustrated with the whole mess, that they don't even want to vote anymore, which is another major problem. If people felt like their opinion contributed, then they would express it more. But the way I see it, the only place their opinion could matter or have a positive impact is within their own communities, and with those they choose to associate with.

Disagree. It's just lazy thinking. It's much more typical of older folks like Cigar, Nic and apparently Crepitus. This is what they're used to.

[Mister D]

I mean cluster$#@! in the sense that it is many people with differing opinions and cultures trying to come to a consensus. You end up with a cluster$#@!.

Please explain to me how it isn't.

Move on. He will continue to insist you listen to Fox News, Rush Limbaugh etc.

[Mini Me]

The rightwing, and by that I presume you really mean Republicans based upon your partisanship, is as clusterfucked as the leftwing, er, Democrats. The Donkephant needs to be tossed out on it's collective keister.

The Donkephant IS the corporate fascist NWO.
But it appears that the Rethugs are the main provocatuers, much moreso than the Dems.

But we will never know how many Dems are in its grasp, as they hide it well. DINOS, also known as the Third Way.

[Don]

America is just fine. The only reason you and others think it is a mess is the right wing propaganda machine has been going non stop ever since a black man ended up in the White House.

Franklin Roosevelt was not a black man thank you very much! Now Bill Clinton, maybe...:evil::afro::grin:

[Crepitus]

I mean clusterfuck in the sense that it is many people with differing opinions and cultures trying to come to a consensus. You end up with a clusterfuck.

Please explain to me how it isn't.
If that's a cluster fuck then it has been since the beginning.

[Guerilla]

If that's a cluster fuck then it has been since the beginning.

Yes but it wasn't as large or as diverse or as centralized, so groups weren't attempting to conform other groups, and so it wasn't as prevalent.

I've always liked the founders and what they tried to start; their principles and ideas. But their vision was destroyed very early on. We need to take what they envisioned further.

[Crepitus]

Yes but it wasn't as large or as diverse or as centralized, so groups weren't attempting to conform other groups.

I've always liked the founders and what they tried to start; their principles and ideas. But their vision was destroyed very early on. We need to take what they envisioned further.
Doesn't anyone remember "the great American melting pot"? What you are describing is the way its always been, the way its supposed to be. Diverse groups and cultures coming together. Yes there is some friction, there always is and certain elements always think its the end of the world and things are only getting worse but that isn't true. It's just an adjustment period, and we have them all the time and we are going to keep having them.

Come on guys, this is the best country, the best place to live, in the entire world. We're resilient, we are adaptable, we are gonna be fine!

[Guerilla]

Doesn't anyone remember "the great American melting pot"? What you are describing is the way its always been, the way its supposed to be. Diverse groups and cultures coming together. Yes there is some friction, there always is and certain elements always think its the end of the world and things are only getting worse but that isn't true. It's just an adjustment period, and we have them all the time and we are going to keep having them.

Come on guys, this is the best country, the best place to live, in the entire world. We're resilient, we are adaptable, we are gonna be fine!

"Adjustment period" to me means assimilation. Your saying "give it time, and the opposition will subside"?

So you don't actually care about minorities opinion or diversity? You just want them pressured and hassled into agreeing with you? Wow. Disgusting.

[Chris]

Your opinion is irrelevant because you don't participate.

Oh but I am participating. Nice of you to make it up I'm not.

[Guerilla]

Why can't we just have voluntary elections? As in, you are subject to whatever candidates plan that you vote for. But your vote doesn't apply to a bunch of other people. Then we don't have people blaming each other because they were not bound by someone elses vote. They would only be subject to their own.

We can have national and state elections this way. If a person isn't interested in any of the main candidates put forth, then they can choose to not vote in the national or state elections, and not be bound by their dictates. Then they can organize with their community, and others who were dissatisfied with national and state politics.

This goes along with minority rights, and freedom to associate separate from detached entities.

[Chris]

The Donkephant IS the corporate fascist NWO.
But it appears that the Rethugs are the main provocatuers, much moreso than the Dems.

But we will never know how many Dems are in its grasp, as they hide it well. DINOS, also known as the Third Way.

"corporate fascist "

What on earth could you possibly mean by that?

[Crepitus]

"Adjustment period" to me means assimilation. Your saying "give it time, and the opposition will subside"?

So you don't actually care about minorities opinion or diversity? You just want them pressured and hassled into agreeing with you? Wow. Disgusting.
How did you get that out of what I said?

I give up. You guys are nuts. You wanna be all doom and gloom who am I to spoil your fun.

Crepitus out!

[Chris]

How did you get that out of what I said?

I give up. You guys are nuts. You wanna be all doom and gloom who am I to spoil your fun.

Crepitus out!

^^Raises white flag of ad hom and retreats.

[Guerilla]

How did you get that out of what I said?

I give up. You guys are nuts. You wanna be all doom and gloom who am I to spoil your fun.

Crepitus out!

I'm just being real. Enjoy your night.

[domer76]

The sooner we realize and embrace that, the sooner we can start fixing things.

Before I go further, thoughts?

Perhaps YOUR America is a clusterfuck, but mine is doing OK. Not the greatest, with lots of room for improvement, but there's ALWAYS been room for improvement.

Know when it was REALLY a clusterfuck? In the 60s when we were losing 58,000 of our own in Vietnam. When our leaders were being assassinated. When there were campus riots and race riots constantly in the news. And then we elected a crook for a President. THAT was a clusterfuck!

Yet, we survived, didn't we? Things got better. Same now. We came through a nasty ass recession and are now recovering. We are about to witness an expansion of civil rights for a segment of out population. The religious right is beginning to lose its influence in this country, unclusterfucking a lot of things.

I guess if I were a black man in Ferguson, MO, I might think things were a clusterfuck. But, my guess it's been a clusterfuck for the black man in the South since about 1620. But I'm a white male in Idaho. My world is pretty unclusterfucked in that environment. If I were a Republican, Mormon, white male in Idaho, it would be as unclusterfucked as one could get. But alas, I'm not, so a bit of clusterfuck is still there.

If you think it's a clusterfuck, it's gonna be, and most likely, nobody will convince you otherwise.

[Dragonborn Herald]

The reason for the mess is too many people, liberals and conservatives alike, think that everybody has to conform to them.

I really wish that expectation would end and people would learn that there is no such thing as normal, and that it shouldn't really matter if we believe in different things.

What should matter is how people act on their beliefs.

But I'd love to live in a society that would be do what thou wilt at no harm to others shalt be the whole of the law.

[Green Arrow]

I think it is not I who needs to widen my perceptions. You people need to go outside and look around instead of listening to the biased reports from the various noise machines. The world isn't ending, our country's not a cluster fuck, in fact things are actually looking up. But the better things look, the harder the noise machines push to make them look the opposite. Use your own eyes and ears. Get your info first hand for a change.

The only news media I watch is C-Span and I live in the real world. The America I see on a daily basis is absolutely a clusterfuck.

How much do you make in a year? What kind of neighborhood do you live in?

Seriously, considering Democrats are constantly bitching about innocent black people getting gunned down in the streets every day by evil cops, I can't believe you'd seriously argue that things are just fine in America.

[PolWatch]

We do not live in a Utopia. There are problems. But not this is not a cluster....if you believe that you should just crawl under your bed and wait for the zombies to come after you.

[domer76]

The reason for the mess is too many people, liberals and conservatives alike, think that everybody has to conform to them.

I really wish that expectation would end and people would learn that there is no such thing as normal, and that it shouldn't really matter if we believe in different things.

What should matter is how people act on their beliefs.

But I'd love to live in a society that would be do what thou wilt at no harm to others shalt be the whole of the law.

The only normal people in the world are the ones you haven't met yet.

[domer76]

The only news media I watch is C-Span and I live in the real world. The America I see on a daily basis is absolutely a clusterfuck.

How much do you make in a year? What kind of neighborhood do you live in?

Seriously, considering Democrats are constantly bitching about innocent black people getting gunned down in the streets every day by evil cops, I can't believe you'd seriously argue that things are just fine in America.

Blacks have always been fucked with by the cops. They've been telling us so for many years. Now, we just have the means to document it rather than hearing it from them. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[Green Arrow]

Blacks have always been fucked with by the cops. They've been telling us so for many years. Now, we just have the means to document it rather than hearing it from them. It shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

But this to you is not a clusterfuck, and America is just great.

[domer76]

But this to you is not a clusterfuck, and America is just great.

I never said it wasn't fine. But since you missed it, I was commenting on your statement about the Democrats "bitching" about it. A perfectly shitty way to describe the reality of the situation. If you think documenting and trying to rectify those transgressions, ones that we are seeing as being as common as the black man has been telling us for decades, is "bitching", I guess there might well be a clusterfuck. But that clusterfuck would be between your ears.

[Green Arrow]

I never said it wasn't fine. But since you missed it, I was commenting on your statement about the Democrats "bitching" about it. A perfectly shitty way to describe the reality of the situation. If you think documenting and trying to rectify those transgressions, ones that we are seeing as being as common as the black man has been telling us for decades, is "bitching", I guess there might well be a clusterfuck. But that clusterfuck would be between your ears.

I actually see where I made a mistake. I thought I was carrying on a discussion with a group of adults, but it's clear you at least are still a child. I won't mistake you as one with any semblance of maturity again.

[Green Arrow]

Would anyone bearing the intelligence and maturity greater than a hormonal teenager care to discuss the state of America?

[Common]

Know whats made america into this grand clusterfuck? All of you and everyone like you.
Thats all you all do is tear the country down. Its unfixable, its this its that.

Then in another post you will all say this is the best system in the world.

The problem with america is its people bitching non stop about any thing and everything.
Everyone thinks its got to be exactly how they want it to be or its a big clusterfuck going to crash.
Its like a lone individual thats screwed up in the head and talks himself into suicide.

You all can jump on Crepitus all you want. HE is right, he may have said it wrong by laying blame soley on the right, but the truth is that since 2008 is when all the insanity has started in this country and all the doomsaying, blame the left or the right which every flips your switch but thats when all started.

Ive lived through this before, manic depressive country and HYPER PARTISANISM when Jimmy Carter was president.

Anyone remember the vietnam years in the USA ?

[Green Arrow]

Know whats made america into this grand clusterfuck? All of you and everyone like you.
Thats all you all do is tear the country down. Its unfixable, its this its that.

Then in another post you will all say this is the best system in the world.

The problem with america is its people bitching non stop about any thing and everything.
Everyone thinks its got to be exactly how they want it to be or its a big clusterfuck going to crash.
Its like a lone individual thats screwed up in the head and talks himself into suicide.

You all can jump on Crepitus all you want. HE is right, he may have said it wrong by laying blame soley on the right, but the truth is that since 2008 is when all the insanity has started in this country and all the doomsaying, blame the left or the right which every flips your switch but thats when all started.

Ive lived through this before, manic depressive country and HYPER PARTISANISM when Jimmy Carter was president.

Anyone remember the vietnam years in the USA ?

Is America perfect, Common?

And please, don't give me a speech. Just answer the question.

[Chris]

Ask him about corporations. Minimum wage. WalMart!!!

[Common]

Is America perfect, @Common (http://thepoliticalforums.com/member.php?u=659)?

And please, don't give me a speech. Just answer the question.

No

[Green Arrow]

No

So if it's not perfect, then there are problems, correct?

[Common]

Ask him about corporations. Minimum wage. WalMart!!!

He should ask you about the free market so you can rant how great it is then tell us how the country that cant fixed and should be abolished. The left did it right chris ? Obama did it right chris,
The unions did it right chris and all those scumbag workers that wanted some benefits right chris.

[Common]

So if it's not perfect, then there are problems, correct?

Dont play games GA, going from the country is unfixable to asking if its perfect is ludicrous.
Nothing is perfect, but I stand firmly by the problems in this country is everyone wanting it to be like they want and not accepting anything else. The representative of that attitude is the Right and Left in Politics who have collectively accomplished nothing since Obama has been in office.

Of course chris has to bring in his beloved corporations who he believes if left totally alone to their own designs will fix the entire world.

[Hal Jordan]

I think one problem is the melting pot idea itself. We shouldn't be aiming for a melting pot, where individuality is destroyed, but more of a salad. In a salad, each piece is distinctly that piece. Yes, you have salad dressing providing a commonality, but individuality is still strongly present.

Of course, the more worrying concern to me is the parties we have in power. We have allowed them to grow far too corrupt. Something needs to be done.

[Green Arrow]

Dont play games GA, going from the country is unfixable to asking if its perfect is ludicrous.
Nothing is perfect, but I stand firmly by the problems in this country is everyone wanting it to be like they want and not accepting anything else. The representative of that attitude is the Right and Left in Politics who have collectively accomplished nothing since Obama has been in office.

Of course chris has to bring in his beloved corporations who he believes if left totally alone to their own designs will fix the entire world.

I never said it was unfixable. Only Chris said that. I'm not interested in your discussion with Chris. You have in the past levied the same accusation at me, that I loathe this country. I think it's a ridiculous assertion. I don't loathe America any more than a parent loathes an unruly child.

[Hal Jordan]

Dont play games GA, going from the country is unfixable to asking if its perfect is ludicrous.
Nothing is perfect, but I stand firmly by the problems in this country is everyone wanting it to be like they want and not accepting anything else. The representative of that attitude is the Right and Left in Politics who have collectively accomplished nothing since Obama has been in office.

Of course chris has to bring in his beloved corporations who he believes if left totally alone to their own designs will fix the entire world.

Stating that it's unfixable is the exact opposite of what this thread is saying. It's saying that as soon as we can see the mess, the sooner we can fix it.

[Common]

I think one problem is the melting pot idea itself. We shouldn't be aiming for a melting pot, where individuality is destroyed, but more of a salad. In a salad, each piece is distinctly that piece. Yes, you have salad dressing providing a commonality, but individuality is still strongly present.

Of course, the more worrying concern to me is the parties we have in power. We have allowed them to grow far too corrupt. Something needs to be done.

Hal, the country is depressed, theyve been driven into depression by what they read and hear on tv and the net. There are so many people out of work and underemployed. Dont let chris read this, he will go into a tirade about how thats the fault of unions and regulations and to high taxs on corporate america and wall St.


The stonewalling of congress and not getting a single thing done and this new thing of I dont like it so it cant be right and I have a right to anything I want.

Before a person kills themself they have to first convince themselves theres nothing to live for and thats exactly what all the doomsayers in this thread are doing.

Our problem is we know what the problems are but we wont fix them because that might make someone else happy.

[Bob]

Hal, the country is depressed, theyve been driven into depression by what they read and hear on tv and the net. There are so many people out of work and underemployed. Dont let chris read this, he will go into a tirade about how thats the fault of unions and regulations and to high taxs on corporate america and wall St.


The stonewalling of congress and not getting a single thing done and this new thing of I dont like it so it cant be right and I have a right to anything I want.

Before a person kills themself they have to first convince themselves theres nothing to live for and thats exactly what all the doomsayers in this thread are doing.

Our problem is we know what the problems are but we wont fix them because that might make someone else happy.

Counter point.

Watch the thread with Robert George discussing this matter.

People at work are not depressed. Those not working are upset Obama claims we are almost all working. We are not almost all working. They ignore the actual figures of percent of the public working. Chris makes a lot of good points. This is not the fault of congress. A way to see this is to look at the vast sum of dollars spent by congress. If it was the republicans fault, spending would be less and less each year. It still grows. Even with sequestration, it grows.

Companies can fix this. Democrats however make them demons. It is sad to see Democrats blast those who hire the public. It's as if you say you want something but tell them to go to hell.

[Common]

lol

[Hal Jordan]

Hal, the country is depressed, theyve been driven into depression by what they read and hear on tv and the net. There are so many people out of work and underemployed. Dont let chris read this, he will go into a tirade about how thats the fault of unions and regulations and to high taxs on corporate america and wall St.


The stonewalling of congress and not getting a single thing done and this new thing of I dont like it so it cant be right and I have a right to anything I want.

Before a person kills themself they have to first convince themselves theres nothing to live for and thats exactly what all the doomsayers in this thread are doing.

Our problem is we know what the problems are but we wont fix them because that might make someone else happy.

I know a thing or two about depression. I can't argue that the media is a part of the problem, because I agree that it is.

So you agree that the parties are a major problem? Who's saying if they don't like something, it can't be right? Who's saying they have a right to anything they want? Other than the politicians in power, of course...

I disagree completely. To fix problems, first you have to diagnose problems. Saying there are no problems would be extremely ignorant. Walking into a shark tank because you refuse to look at the signs is also killing yourself.

So, what are the problems, and how do we fix them? Saying we won't because it might make someone else happy is a very selfish outlook on it. That implies that someone won't do things that they know are right just because it would benefit someone else more. Yes, there are people like that, but there are also people on the opposite end of the spectrum. Personally, if something is right, I will try to do that, even when it hurts me. I will put others above myself.

[Bob]

Hal, the country is depressed, theyve been driven into depression by what they read and hear on tv and the net. There are so many people out of work and underemployed. Dont let chris read this, he will go into a tirade about how thats the fault of unions and regulations and to high taxs on corporate america and wall St.


The stonewalling of congress and not getting a single thing done and this new thing of I dont like it so it cant be right and I have a right to anything I want.

Before a person kills themself they have to first convince themselves theres nothing to live for and thats exactly what all the doomsayers in this thread are doing.

Our problem is we know what the problems are but we wont fix them because that might make someone else happy.

:smiley_ROFLMAO::smiley_ROFLMAO:

[donttread]

The sooner we realize and embrace that, the sooner we can start fixing things.

Before I go further, thoughts?

Reinstate the Constitution and BOR's, become responsible for the production of our own energy and quit screwing with other countries

[Reason10]

The sooner we realize and embrace that, the sooner we can start fixing things.

Before I go further, thoughts?

Nothing an IMPEACHMENT of a corrupt illegal alien in the White House wouldn't cure.

[Peter1469]

Someone didn't update their meme after the last election.

[del]

america has always been a clusterfuck

that's the beauty of it

[Captain Obvious]

america has always been a clusterfuck

that's the beauty of it

Embrace the dysfunction

[del]

Embrace the dysfunction

exactly

put the fun back in

[Common Sense]

Since when did people become so pessimistic?

[Captain Obvious]

Since when did people become so pessimistic?

Pessimistic =/= realistic

[donttread]

Embrace the dysfunction

At one time, maybe up until 15 years ago our government was dysfunctional. Now however it is non-functional.

[Ransom]

Since when did people become so pessimistic?

The rise of liberalism, why?

[Ransom]

Hal, the country is depressed, theyve been driven into depression by what they read and hear on tv and the net. There are so many people out of work and underemployed. Dont let chris read this, he will go into a tirade about how thats the fault of unions and regulations and to high taxs on corporate america and wall St.


The stonewalling of congress and not getting a single thing done and this new thing of I dont like it so it cant be right and I have a right to anything I want.

Before a person kills themself they have to first convince themselves theres nothing to live for and thats exactly what all the doomsayers in this thread are doing.

Our problem is we know what the problems are but we wont fix them because that might make someone else happy.

:wtf20:

[Ransom]

At one time, maybe up until 15 years ago our government was dysfunctional. Now however it is non-functional.

And yet spending record amounts of our money....... while you cheer.

[domer76]

I actually see where I made a mistake. I thought I was carrying on a discussion with a group of adults, but it's clear you at least are still a child. I won't mistake you as one with any semblance of maturity again.

When you quit trying to put words in other people's mouths to suit the purposes of YOUR argument, perhaps there would be some dialogue. While that slimy, POS tactic might work for some, it doesn't fly with everyone. The same with your pissant dismissal. The sign that you have nothing of value to offer.

[Green Arrow]

When you quit trying to put words in other people's mouths to suit the purposes of YOUR argument, perhaps there would be some dialogue. While that slimy, POS tactic might work for some, it doesn't fly with everyone. The same with your pissant dismissal. The sign that you have nothing of value to offer.

You seem confused. What I did was carry on a discussion and give you chances to clarify what you were saying. Rather than do that, you chose to resort to insults.

It's quite childish and I won't indulge it.

[Redrose]

America is just fine. The only reason you and others think it is a mess is the right wing propaganda machine has been going non stop ever since a black man ended up in the White House.


Holy crap, the friggin race card crap again. Give it a freaking rest already.

Obama sucks, in any color.

[Guerilla]

Perhaps YOUR America is a clusterfuck, but mine is doing OK. Not the greatest, with lots of room for improvement, but there's ALWAYS been room for improvement.

Know when it was REALLY a clusterfuck? In the 60s when we were losing 58,000 of our own in Vietnam. When our leaders were being assassinated. When there were campus riots and race riots constantly in the news. And then we elected a crook for a President. THAT was a clusterfuck!

Yet, we survived, didn't we? Things got better. Same now. We came through a nasty ass recession and are now recovering. We are about to witness an expansion of civil rights for a segment of out population. The religious right is beginning to lose its influence in this country, unclusterfucking a lot of things.

I guess if I were a black man in Ferguson, MO, I might think things were a clusterfuck. But, my guess it's been a clusterfuck for the black man in the South since about 1620. But I'm a white male in Idaho. My world is pretty unclusterfucked in that environment. If I were a Republican, Mormon, white male in Idaho, it would be as unclusterfucked as one could get. But alas, I'm not, so a bit of clusterfuck is still there.

If you think it's a clusterfuck, it's gonna be, and most likely, nobody will convince you otherwise.

^Example of overcompensating I mentioned earlier.


Perhaps YOUR America is a clusterfuck, but mine is doing OK. Not the greatest, with lots of room for improvement, but there's ALWAYS been room for improvement.

All I'm saying is that it's time to make those improvements. If you agree, then why are you so defensive? I've outlined some problems, I've mentioned some solutions even. Hal said we should have more of a salad than a melting pot. I like that description.